Funky Hand Jive

Summary

Radiolab: "Funky Hand Jive" (April 26, 2017)

Main Theme

This episode of Radiolab explores the science of the human microbiome—specifically, whether the microbes from a famous handshake (JFK and the young Robert Krulwich) could linger, and what a handshake really transfers between two people. Through a mix of storytelling and experiment—with scientists, physicians, and guest star Neil deGrasse Tyson—the hosts dig into questions of microbial individuality, lifelong microbial inheritance, and the cutting-edge forensic and health science developing around our personal clouds of bacteria.

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Section Summaries & Key Discussion Points

1. A Presidential Handshake and its Microbial Echo

[01:49–04:15]

• Robert Krulwich recounts shaking President John F. Kennedy’s hand as a teenager and wondering—half-jokingly at the time—whether some essence of JFK would linger on his own hand.
• This becomes the seed for the central question: Can a handshake leave microbes that stick around for days, weeks, or even years?

"At the moment, I thought, oh, Kennedy on Robert."
—Robert Krulwich [03:58]

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2. Meet the Scientists & The Big Experiment

[05:00–14:16]

• Robert, unable to shake JFK’s hand again, enlists scientists (notably Jack Gilbert from the University of Chicago), a team from WNYC’s Only Human, and astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson as JFK's stand-in.
• The experiment: Swab Neil and Robert’s hands pre-handshake, perform handshake, swab at intervals post-handshake, and analyze the bacterial transfer.

Microbial Introduction:

• Humans are "covered with germs," but each of us carries a unique "microbial fingerprint."
• Jack Gilbert describes every mucosal surface and all skin as host to billions of bacteria, with people each shedding 36 million bacterial cells an hour into their environment.

"Think Pig Pen from the Peanuts cartoon...about 36 million bacterial cells an hour."
—Jack Gilbert [07:23]

• Even chairs are covered with each sitter’s unique mix, especially from our "colonic" bacteria—aka, yes, a little bit of poop.

Control, Execution, and Swabbing:

• Jack Gilbert: "So we have these little sterile tubes... we're going to open that up and very quickly rub very vigorously each of your hands." [09:08]
• Discussion covers why people develop unique microbial signatures—distinct even for city dwellers, as primary composition is inherited at birth, chiefly from the microbiome of our mothers.

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3. Microbial Baptism and the Founder Effect

[10:33–14:16]

• Dr. Siobhan Dolan (OB/GYN) describes the "bacterial baptism" babies undergo during birth and skin-to-skin contact with their mothers—which sets their lifelong microbial signature (the "founder effect").
• These primary microbes outcompete later arrivals, shaping everything from gut health to disease risk.

"The bacteria, they're like, give me a ride. I'm gonna jump on."
—Dr. Siobhan Dolan [11:28]

• Even if you try to sterilize your system or move across the globe, much of the original microbial cohort resurges due to the founder effect.

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4. The Handshake Experiment—Method and Anticipation

[14:16–15:14]

• Neil deGrasse Tyson and Robert perform the handshake, after pre- and post-swabbing by Jack Gilbert, who narrates.
• Jad and Robert recap, teasing the results after a break.

"Two hands coming together...It's like taking a rainforest from Bolivia and dumping it on top of a rainforest in Brazil and wondering whether any of the trees from the Bolivian rainforest will take root..."
—Jack Gilbert [25:31]

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5. From Microbial Forensics to Disease—The New Science

[19:32–21:20]

• Jack discusses emerging applications:
  • Forensics: People leave enough microbial trace that, after spending 15 minutes in a space, they can be identified among several suspects half an hour later.
  • Public Health: Sewer microbiome monitoring could preemptively reveal outbreaks before visible illness.

"If somebody comes into a room and does an evil deed...we could detect which one of them had broken into that room."
—Jack Gilbert [20:04]

• Microbiome differences also play potential roles in medicine, from predicting drug reactions to personal disease risk.

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6. Revealing the Handshake Results—Surprise!

[21:21–26:16]

• Anticipation: Jack predicted a little transfer of bacteria, disappearing quickly.
• Result: Contrary to expectations, Robert transferred a large, persistent dose of his microbes to Neil—but Neil left almost none on Robert.

"It was zero....Actually they found a teeny number of bacteria, but they died."
—Robert Krulwich with Jack Gilbert [22:22–22:33]

• Neil’s hand picked up Robert's bacteria, causing “quite a substantial disruption” and their persistence for over 20 minutes ("could have gone on ad infinitum" [24:52]).

• Jack theorizes a stray streptococcus bacterium from Robert’s hand disrupted Neil’s microbiome, clearing the way for colonization.

"There was a streptococcus that was very abundant on your hand at the beginning, that was transferred to Neil's hand. And we see that transfer occurring. And that Streptococcus somehow disrupted Neil's ecosystem and allowed for a greater transfer of bacteria from your hand to his hand."
—Jack Gilbert [26:42]

• The outcome was "atypical": normally, "your bacteria have home field advantage...the invading microbes start to die."

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7. Reflections, Banter, and Takeaways

[27:08–29:38]

• The hosts and Neil riff humorously on invasive microbes, personal hygiene, and strange pride (and embarrassment) in Robert’s “victory.”

"My microbiome was perfectly content staying where it is. And apparently Robert's microbiome can't wait to get the hell off his body."
—Neil deGrasse Tyson [27:40]

• The central question (“Did JFK stay on me?”) morphs: perhaps the real curiosity is around how long Robert stuck to Neil.

• Conversation ends with playful ribbing about “creepy, sweaty” hands and “something’s gotta give” (song clip).

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Notable Quotes

• Robert Krulwich: "I said to my sister, I shook President Kennedy's hand, and I guess I'm not gonna wash it for, like, two days, two weeks, maybe." [03:36]
• Jack Gilbert: "You have a lifelong partnership with the bacteria you interacted with." [13:38]
• Neil deGrasse Tyson: “No, there's no part of anyone else that I just want to purport.” [06:01]
• Jad Abumrad: "I'm slightly proud and kind of troubled." [24:24]
• Jack Gilbert: “It’s like taking a rainforest from Bolivia and dumping it on top of a rainforest in Brazil and wondering whether any of the trees ... will take root...” [25:31]

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:49] – Robert describes the original Kennedy handshake story
• [04:15] – Scientific framing: can microbes persist from a handshake?
• [05:00] – Introduction of experiment, Neil deGrasse Tyson steps in
• [07:23] – Jack Gilbert explains our microbial “cloud”
• [10:33] – Dr. Siobhan Dolan on “bacterial baptism” and mother-to-baby microbiome transfer
• [13:36] – Founder effect and lifelong microbial inheritance
• [14:16] – Handshake experiment, swabbing, and sampling
• [19:32] – Forensic and public health implications of the microbiome
• [21:21] – Experiment results: only Robert's bacteria stuck
• [24:13] – Analysis of why the results were so lopsided
• [25:31] – "Rainforest on rainforest" analogy
• [27:40] – Neil on his microbiome's defensiveness
• [29:06] – Closing banter and reflection

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Memorable Moments

• Neil’s good-natured skepticism and humor throughout (e.g., "No, I'm not that weird or creepy." [05:55])
• Jad’s mix of pride and disturbance at Robert’s “microbial dominance” [24:24]
• The surprise at scientific unpredictability: the experiment didn’t go as expected, highlighting how little is still known about microbial ecosystems.

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Episode Flow and Tone

• Tone: Curious, playful, and deeply nerdy—filled with characteristic Radiolab banter, analogies, and sound effects.
• Structure: Begins with a personal story, moves to sci-journalism and experiment, and ends reflecting on the experiment’s surprise results and their implications.

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Bottom Line

"Funky Hand Jive" uses a quirky, personal experiment to illuminate the profound role our microbiome plays in identity, inheritance, and health—and how even the briefest contact, like a handshake, can reveal the shifting, competitive, and sometimes unpredictable drama of our tiny microbial passengers.

Transcript

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[Robert Krulwich]

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[Jack Gilbert]

Oh, wait, you're listening.

[Producer/Announcer]

Okay.

[Jack Gilbert]

All right.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay.

[Jack Gilbert]

All right. You're listening to Radiolab Radio Lab from wnyc.

[Robert Krulwich]

Can I just tell you a story?

[Jad Abumrad]

I don't have a choice, do I?

[Robert Krulwich]

You don't really have a choice.

[Jad Abumrad]

What's the story?

[Robert Krulwich]

This takes me back to when I was 14. Jack Kennedy. John F. Kennedy was the president. And he's very. I mean, you really. He was on television. He was fun to watch. And he would go to mass in my neighborhood in New York. When he come to New York, he'd go to a particular church all the time. And just out of enthusiasm, some of my friends and I would go and stand there and watch him just walk up the steps. You see the President of the United States and his wife.

[Jad Abumrad]

You did this multiple times?

[Robert Krulwich]

Many times, yes. Cause we were big fans. And then one day we went to do that, and I can't remember whether he zipped by or zipped in. But anyway, we missed it. And my friend John said, damn. But he was a New York kid, so he thought it Would be interesting. He knew the place where President Getty was staying, which was a famous hotel on Madison Avenue. And he came up with this crazy plan that he was gonna ask for his aunt when we walk in the lobby so the Secret Service wouldn't have to worry about us. So we go to the hotel. He does the thing. We're in the lobby, and then, crazily, the elevator door opens, and there is. President Kennedy steps out of the elevator with Jackie. She's immediately grabbed by these reporters, and they're asking her something, and he's got nothing to do. So he's a politician. He gl. And I am standing behind a potted plant, staring at him. And so he steps towards the bush, and he reaches over the bush and goes, hello, young man. Or something like that. And I couldn't speak because there was so much phlegm coming flooding into my throat that I thought I might drown standing up. But I took his hand and I shook it, and then he released, and he went off to do something else. And I was just staring at my hand. Later that day, I said to my sister, I shook President Kennedy's hand, and I guess I'm not gonna wash it for, like, two days, two weeks, maybe.

[Jad Abumrad]

What did she say to you?

[Robert Krulwich]

I don't remember what she said, but that's a funny thing to say when 50 years later, you're a science reporter. This is just like a. Like you think, huh? Because at the moment, I thought, oh, Kennedy on Robert.

[Jad Abumrad]

Ooh.

[Robert Krulwich]

I didn't know whether that was true. It was kind of like a dream thing. Everybody has it, I think, with celebrities. At least I do. But now it turns out we can examine the question scientifically. There's now a science that can do that.

[Jad Abumrad]

What do you mean?

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, first of all, we all know this. We're covered with germs, with bacteria.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yes.

[Robert Krulwich]

But what I didn't realize is that there are scientists who say the bacteria on us, they cling to us almost, like, for life. So you can be identified by your microbes. And these scientists are now making the bold claim that they can check those microbes to solve crimes, to detect diseases, to do public health kind of things. I thought, well, really, I'm gonna. Why not put them to the test? Here he is. These are the people. And go after this small little bit of personal history I got. So I decided to reproduce the John F. Kennedy, Robert Krulwich handshake as an experiment.

[Jad Abumrad]

What?

[Robert Krulwich]

That's insane. I thought we could just. I could find somebody who would be president Kennedy who would shake my hand and we would measure and calculate and see. So I got a team of producers from WNYC show Only Human to help me doing this, and we found a scientist.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Oh, hey, your name again?

[Jack Gilbert]

Jack Gilbert.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Jack.

[Robert Krulwich]

Jack Gilbert is director of the Microbiome center at the University of Chicago. And then I don't have President Kennedy around anymore, so I got myself. You're going to be President Kennedy for these purposes, substitute President Kennedy.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay, sure.

[Robert Krulwich]

Can you do a jfk, by the way?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Our nation will put a man on the moon and return him safely to the Earth. No, no. Cheers.

[Robert Krulwich]

This is Neil Degrasse Tyson, director of the Hayden Planetarium with the American Museum of Natural History here in New York. Well, have you ever been shook? Have you ever had your hand shaken by a person who you. That you feel like you'd like to have his or her stuff sustain?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, I'm not that weird or creepy.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay. Okay, fair enough.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, there's no part of anyone else that I just want to purport.

[Jack Gilbert]

What about if you got Carl Sagan's underwear? Would you keep Carl Sagan's underwear?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No. Sorry. But I have come to love and embrace all bacteria that want a part of my body.

[Jack Gilbert]

All right. You are awesome.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So am I your man for this?

[Jack Gilbert]

You are absolutely the man for this.

[Robert Krulwich]

And, and.

[Jad Abumrad]

And.

[Robert Krulwich]

Are you kidding me?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I will so pick up food that fell on the floor and eat it.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh, yeah, me too.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I'll do that.

[Robert Krulwich]

Me too.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I don't even wait five seconds.

[Robert Krulwich]

Me too.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Which was always. We knew it was bullshit anyway.

[Jack Gilbert]

Exactly.

[Robert Krulwich]

All right, so let me explain what it is I want to do. I don't think no one exactly knows the answer to this question, but if a. Another person's hands for a ordinary interval, then the question is how much of person A lands on person B and how much of person A stays on person B, but most crucially, for how long.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Presumably there's an exchange.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So we're nicking off back and forth.

[Robert Krulwich]

You do have enormous hands, though, now that I'm looking at them.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, I know. When I try to find gloves, it doesn't work. So it's 3 XL.

[Robert Krulwich]

All right, so just so we can begin, the fact that you are carrying all these microbes on you, first of all, where are they? Predominantly?

[Jack Gilbert]

They're all over. So every mucosal surface in your body. So your mouth, your gastrointestinal tract all the way down, your skin, your fingernails, your urogenital tract, your ears, every part of you, that's your Butt. Your butt, especially your butt is covered in bacteria. And just sitting here, you're actually releasing into the air around you. Think pig pen from the Peanuts cartoon. Remember, about 36 million bacterial cells an hour. So every minute.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

How do they come off of me?

[Jack Gilbert]

They are literally leaving off on the surface your skin cells that you're shedding and through your respirations coming out of your nose and your mouth.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay.

[Jack Gilbert]

Also detaching. So a lot of them, they dry out on the surface and they can literally just drift off as dust.

[Robert Krulwich]

But just so I understand the anatomy of the room, all over this room, on the doorknob, on the table surface, on his. The desk and on the chairs, there's Neil everywhere.

[Jack Gilbert]

A lot of them are colonic Neil.

[Jad Abumrad]

Right.

[Jack Gilbert]

So a lot of them actually coming out of his. Out of your pants. Right. And they are on the surface of the chair and they deposit.

[Robert Krulwich]

Colonic is a multi syllabic word. But we. I think we understand what you mean.

[Jack Gilbert]

Yeah, yeah. They are poop.

[Robert Krulwich]

Why would that be? Is it just.

[Jack Gilbert]

It's the largest resource. It's the.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Get out of me.

[Jack Gilbert]

And it does quite. All the time.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

All the time. So that means even though he's not.

[Robert Krulwich]

This is not a bathroom.

[Jack Gilbert]

Even though he's not.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Surfaces of chairs would have the most.

[Jack Gilbert]

Yes.

[Robert Krulwich]

All right, so now let me just.

[Jack Gilbert]

Time question real quick. So Jack needs about 20 minutes to do.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

For us to do this handshake experiment.

[Robert Krulwich]

That's by the way, producer Kenny Malone.

[Jack Gilbert]

Why don't we start the experiment now? That's a good idea. And then we have time to talk in between.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay. All right. What are you gonna do?

[Jack Gilbert]

So what we're gonna do is we have little test.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I'm not offering you my butthole for this experiment. It doesn't mean I am offering you my butt.

[Jack Gilbert]

Microbes just stand up.

[Robert Krulwich]

So in each one of these, we're gonna do hands.

[Jack Gilbert]

Absolutely. So we have these little sterile tubes. So each tube's little green cap, a sterile swab in it. With a. With a completely sterile tip. We're going to open that up and very quickly rub very vigorously each of your hands. So your palm the inside of your fingers. And we're going to do that very vigorously and then put it as quickly as possible back into this sterile.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So this is your control sample.

[Jack Gilbert]

This is the starter.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

The starter.

[Jack Gilbert]

And then you are going to shake hands with the young man over there.

[Robert Krulwich]

Right.

[Jack Gilbert]

With Robert. And we're going to definitely. I try and see how many you have received from Neil and how many Neil has received from Robert.

[Jad Abumrad]

Wait. He is swabbing your hands before you handshake so that he can figure out what's the baseline that you've got on both your hands pre handshake.

[Robert Krulwich]

Right.

[Jad Abumrad]

And he's sure you're gonna have different bacteria on your hands, you and Neil.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yes.

[Jack Gilbert]

So this is where it gets very interesting. So you have very specific types of bacteria, and he has very specific types of bacteria, but they're unique to you.

[Jad Abumrad]

I mean, I guess, like. I mean, like, if I just think about it for a second, like, the two of you had different days. You arrive in this office, you've probably touched different places, you've eaten different things. So, okay, maybe you have a little bit of difference, but in general, you are both men living in New York City, breathing the same air, riding the same subways.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yes, exactly.

[Jad Abumrad]

So why would you be that different from one another?

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, because there's one very important difference between us.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay.

[Robert Krulwich]

We have different mothers. So have you been told anything like what this is?

[Dr. Siobhan Dolan]

I hear a little bit about the microbiome, but I'm happy to hear more.

[Robert Krulwich]

This is Dr. Siobhan Dolan, obstetrician, gynecologist.

[Dr. Siobhan Dolan]

And I'm actually a clinical geneticist as well.

[Robert Krulwich]

And we brought her in because she knows more than most when it comes to moms and babies.

[Dr. Siobhan Dolan]

During my training years, probably delivered 100 babies a year. So that was about 500 babies. Then I was in private practice at Yale New Haven Hospital for a bunch of years, and I probably delivered another couple hundred. And I have three kids myself, so I was on the other side as well.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay. And she says, as a fetus, before.

[Dr. Siobhan Dolan]

You'Re born, you're, you know, exposed to what's in the amniotic fluid, but it's a pretty clean setup in utero. But then you go through the vagina, and the vagina is just a host of bacteria and, you know, yeast and amniotic fluid. There's blood.

[Robert Krulwich]

And this moment is, in essence, your bacterial baptism.

[Jack Gilbert]

Right, Exactly.

[Robert Krulwich]

Because at this point, you're this pristine, unadulterated hunk of biomass.

[Dr. Siobhan Dolan]

The bacteria, they're like, give me a ride. I'm gonna jump on.

[Jack Gilbert]

Yeah. The bacteria colonize that surface because that's what bacteria.

[Robert Krulwich]

And so finally, when the baby's born, the doctors, they take it.

[Dr. Siobhan Dolan]

You make sure there's stable breathing, and then right up onto mom to start to immediately promote the bonding and the skin to skin.

[Robert Krulwich]

In your own case, if you can remember.

[Dr. Siobhan Dolan]

I can.

[Robert Krulwich]

Like, what happened?

[Dr. Siobhan Dolan]

Like, what I remember is Just grabbing for him like you're mine, and I've been waiting nine months to meet you, and here you are, and, like, just kind of embracing him and looking in his eyes. And so there's a sort of bonding there that I will never forget.

[Robert Krulwich]

And in the same moment, you're gonna get some microbe bonding too.

[Jack Gilbert]

It's a very dynamic hug.

[Robert Krulwich]

And bacteria go, pew. They leap from the mom's skin onto the baby.

[Jack Gilbert]

I did this for both my children. I took both of them onto my bare chest at birth.

[Robert Krulwich]

But you wanted to compete against your wife, huh?

[Jack Gilbert]

Absolutely. Maybe a little bit of daddy was.

[Commercial Voice]

A helpful thing, you know?

[Jack Gilbert]

Who knows? So, yeah, that was the reason I did it.

[Robert Krulwich]

And the thing is, we'll start.

[Jack Gilbert]

So I'll do your first one.

[Robert Krulwich]

The strains of bacteria that we get in those first few hours.

[Jack Gilbert]

Okay, so give me your right hand.

[Robert Krulwich]

And then, to a lesser degree, the bacteria that we meet later in the first year of our life when we stick weird things in our mouth or the dog comes by. You ready?

[Jack Gilbert]

Yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

Those strains of bacteria stick with us. Ready, set, forever.

[Jack Gilbert]

So we're gonna swab it as much as possible.

[Robert Krulwich]

Even the bacteria that Jack will find, it tickles. Now on Neil's hand.

[Jack Gilbert]

Now we'll do Robert.

[Robert Krulwich]

All right. And on my hand, all over the finger in between.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay.

[Robert Krulwich]

Are descendants of those first moments of contact.

[Jack Gilbert]

There we are. And pop that back in there.

[Robert Krulwich]

And crazily enough.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Gotcha.

[Robert Krulwich]

Even if you try to get rid of your bacterial inheritance, you know, put a salve on, get rid of all your skin bacteria, take lots of antibiotics, and get rid of all your tummy bacteria, and then move to some completely different part of the world where the food is different and the temperature's different still, the bacteria you got from your mom will come creeping back.

[Jad Abumrad]

Why would that be?

[Jack Gilbert]

Well, there's something in ecology called the founder effect, whereby the first organisms to get there and to be successful in an environment, they alter the trajectory of the rest of the ecosystem and change how it develops. Right. So if a tree species, certain type of tree, lands on an island and becomes dominant, then it will support the types of birds and the types of monkeys and the types of insects that love that type of tree. And so the same is true in the microbiome. So you have a lifelong partnership with the bacteria you interacted with.

[Robert Krulwich]

So we know that Neil and I each have a unique mix of microbes, almost to the point where they're like a fingerprint. But if we shake hands, just a mere hello. Hello. Handshake. How much of his is gonna get on me, how much of mine is gonna get on him? And most important of all is how long will the exchange microbially last.

[Jack Gilbert]

So next step, you guys gotta shake hands. I want you to shake hands like just as if you were meeting in the hall and you were like, hey, Neil, or hey, Robert, nice to meet you, and just shake hands.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay. Yep.

[Jack Gilbert]

Ready?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Now I have to, like, think about how to actually shake hands. It's like, wait, wait, how does that work?

[Jad Abumrad]

Ready?

[Jack Gilbert]

Two, three.

[Robert Krulwich]

Robert, good to meet you. Nice to see you again.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Good to see you again. All right.

[Jack Gilbert]

Okay, now, Neil, right hand.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Go.

[Jack Gilbert]

Can feel it.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I feel it. Oh, yeah, just my index finger too, because he got a little. Because the palms didn't. Didn't touch as much as the finger.

[Robert Krulwich]

And so every five minutes for the next 20 minutes, and then we're going.

[Jack Gilbert]

To swab your hand again.

[Robert Krulwich]

Jack swabbed both Neil's hand and my hand.

[Jack Gilbert]

I'm actually pulling off a slight patina of bacteria, but just checking to see.

[Robert Krulwich]

If any bacteria moved and for how long.

[Jad Abumrad]

So wait, what happened?

[Molly Webster]

Did he.

[Robert Krulwich]

Did you.

[Jad Abumrad]

What happened?

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, why would I tell you now when we have the advantage of a short break? We'll be right back. This is Nicole from Corning, New York.

[Producer/Announcer]

Radiolab is supported in part by the.

[Jack Gilbert]

Alfred P. Sloan foundation, enhancing public understanding.

[Robert Krulwich]

Of science and technology in the modern world.

[Jack Gilbert]

More information about [e-mail].

[Producer/Announcer]

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[Molly Webster]

Hey, I'm Molly Webster and this is an ad by BetterHelp. So it happens every year. The seasons are changing, the days are getting shorter, and basically, once it becomes dark outside of my window, I feel like the rest of the world disappears and I'm just alone and there's nothing left to do but watch television. This November, BetterHelp is asking every to reach out to our people that could be your family, your friends, your neighbors. And to resist this call of the cocoon. And, yeah, reaching out can take some courage. I've got text messages from January I haven't responded to. And you know what? I'm gonna write them back right now. Hi, sorry I've been missing. How are you? Why don't we all do this sooner? Therapy is the same way. BetterHelp makes it easier to take that first step. You just fill out a short questionnaire and they find a licensed therapist who they think you'll like. Our listeners get 10 off their first month at betterhelp.com Radiolab that's betterhelp.com Radiolab.

[Radio Host/Announcer]

Radiolab is supported by Planet Visionaries, the podcast created in partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative. The show is hosted by Alex Honnold, who you may recognize from Free Solo, where he climbed El Capitan without ropes. Now he's turning his focus to the biggest challenge of protecting the only planet we've got. Every episode brings you stories that prove climate optimism isn't naive, it's a strategy. The episodes span the globe, from Arctic scientists and Amazon forest guardians to entrepreneurs reimagining fashion and food systems. You'll hear from explorers, scientists, activists, and storytellers who are working to reshape the future in practical, human ways. In one episode, Alex sits down with wildlife photographer Bertie Gregory to discuss how animals can teach humans resiliency, empathy, and hope. In partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative. Check out Planet Visionaries Listen or watch on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Commercial Voice]

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[Jad Abumrad]

Jad.

[Robert Krulwich]

Robert, Radiolab. By the way, do you have a hint as to the outcome of this thing that we've just done?

[Jad Abumrad]

Like, okay, just before we went to break, Robert Neil had just shaken hands and Jack Gilbert was gonna swab those hands, right?

[Robert Krulwich]

Mm.

[Jack Gilbert]

One minute after the handshake, and then around every five minutes for about 25 minutes.

[Jad Abumrad]

What exactly does he do after he swabs them?

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, he takes the. Takes our bacteria back to the lab and he identifies our bacteria by their DNA.

[Jack Gilbert]

Yeah, that's exactly it.

[Robert Krulwich]

I mean, it strikes me this is a whole new science, isn't it? I Mean, like there are a thousand things you could won?

[Jack Gilbert]

Well, yes, it is a whole new science. It's a science that's on the cutting edge. You know, we're still researching and developing it, and it will take many years before we're ready for prime time.

[Robert Krulwich]

But Jack says they are now at the phase where they can look into all kinds of different applications for this new microbiome detecting ability. Take for example, forensics. Imagine if somebody comes into a room and does an evil deed, right?

[Jack Gilbert]

Now, we know that when somebody interacts with that space for 15 minutes, they leave behind enough of a signature for us to be able to detect 30 minutes later. If I had to pick between three people or four people that were to break into a room, there's a good possibility that I could detect which one of them had broken into that room.

[Robert Krulwich]

Wow. And they're only gonna get better and better. He says, do you think maybe one day you'll be able to track somebody outside moving around purely based on the bacteria that they leave behind?

[Jack Gilbert]

That's exactly what we're investigating.

[Robert Krulwich]

He also says being able to identify bacteria in a town's sewer system will.

[Jack Gilbert]

Be really useful in helping us to pred a potential outbreak by noticing that.

[Robert Krulwich]

There'S a disease causing bacteria right in the sewage. So you can go to town and before anyone begins to show symptoms, you could say something like, wait a second, we've gotta quarantine, vaccinate, we gotta do.

[Jack Gilbert]

Something here and nip it in the bud, if you will, before it becomes a problem.

[Robert Krulwich]

And as you may have heard, there's plenty of research looking at the microbiome inside of you.

[Jack Gilbert]

It's revolutionizing medicine. I mean, we already have evidence that we can determine whether somebody will have a bad response to a drug based on the bacteria that are present inside them. So we can screen them using their microbiome to determine if they have that likely outcome.

[Robert Krulwich]

But for now.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So come on, yeah, so come on.

[Robert Krulwich]

In back to this absolutely crucial and breathtaking experiment. So let me just quickly remind you of the situation where we last left you, you and I. So a couple of weeks later, we got the results from Jack. And so I decided to go to Neil to deliver them. All right? And just to set up expectations here, Jack told us what he expected was immediately after our handshake, a little bit of me would be on Neil, a little bit of Neil would be on me. And that, you know, pretty fast the bacteria would die and be gone. However, I am very happy to say that is not what happened. What percentage Change would you guess you caused on me?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Of me? On you? 10%. 10% as much? I can't imagine it. I would say 1%, 10%, but not much less than 1%.

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, it was less than 10 when they came back it was significantly less than 10.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay.

[Robert Krulwich]

It was zero.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Zero. Well it can't be zero. It'd be below their. Whatever is their capacity to triple rate. Right. Okay.

[Robert Krulwich]

Actually they found a teeny number of bacteria, but they died.

[Jack Gilbert]

There was essentially nothing.

[Robert Krulwich]

Nothing from Neil? Yes, nothing.

[Jack Gilbert]

It's just, it's just, it's just odd. Should I put it that way? I mean that was quite shocking. We were expecting there to be a lot more bacteria being transferred and to have an exchange of microbes so that, you know, one person picks up 10 bacteria, the other person picks up, you know, 10, 12 bacteria.

[Robert Krulwich]

Do you think you might have washed your hand immediately previously? I don't think.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, no, there was no, no, no sabotage or anything.

[Robert Krulwich]

Did you use an alcohol wipe or warm water?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I hate antibacterial. I don't use. What do you call it? Purell. I never use any of it.

[Robert Krulwich]

So for reasons that are at this moment totally unknown, Neil's bacteria simply failed completely to affect my hand. The other side of this equation is what would you guess the presence of my microbes on you was? Percentage point.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay. What I know from physics of surfaces is if they have approximately the same coefficient of friction, then it's a complete two way street. So if I gave you nothing, you would have given me nothing is my guess.

[Radio Host/Announcer]

Ha.

[Robert Krulwich]

Here's what happened.

[Jack Gilbert]

He definitely picked up bacteria from you.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yes.

[Jack Gilbert]

And that led to quite a substantial disruption.

[Robert Krulwich]

It turns out I swamped your hand.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You tell me. You were skank nasty.

[Robert Krulwich]

I. I ruled you. I don't know what happened. They don't understand what happened. You have a skank. I came onto you funky. The percentage before the handshake was that you and I were 60% the same, 40% different post shake.

[Jack Gilbert]

You were more than 75% correlated.

[Jad Abumrad]

Well Uacu, you made him more you by 15% at least.

[Robert Krulwich]

I was swerving all over him.

[Jad Abumrad]

I'm slightly proud and kind of troubled.

[Radio Host/Announcer]

At the same time.

[Robert Krulwich]

Not only did you get my microbes, but my kept staying and staying and staying. Every time they swamp, I was still there six minutes later, 12 minutes later.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's nasty.

[Robert Krulwich]

Could it have been an hour later? I might still be on his hand. Like.

[Jack Gilbert]

Yeah, I mean there's no indication that they were in decay.

[Robert Krulwich]

When I left, you were covered with.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Me Let the record show he beat his chest in that moment.

[Jack Gilbert]

It looks like there was a possibility that some of them could have gone on ad infinitum.

[Robert Krulwich]

Ad infinitum? What do you mean you think that I might stay on him?

[Jack Gilbert]

What I think is that there's a high probability that some of those organisms, once they set up shop on his hand in those initial 20 minutes, could stay on his hand.

[Jad Abumrad]

Well, you mean like forever? Like forever and ever?

[Jack Gilbert]

There is a possibility.

[Robert Krulwich]

Wow. There is a possibility.

[Jack Gilbert]

Precisely.

[Robert Krulwich]

Do we have any idea whether what we've just described is typical of a common handshake experience?

[Jack Gilbert]

My gut feeling is this is atypical.

[Robert Krulwich]

Why?

[Jack Gilbert]

Because they may be all out competed.

[Robert Krulwich]

Jack says to understand just how strange this result is, why don't you think about it this way? Two hands coming together.

[Jack Gilbert]

It's like taking a rainforest from Bolivia and dumping it on top of a rainforest in Brazil and wondering whether any of the trees from the Bolivian rainforest will take root and adapt and become prolific in that environment.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh, so the invaders don't really have a huge shot here then?

[Jack Gilbert]

No, your bacteria have home field advantage. They are abundant and they are dominant in that environment. So we would generally suspect that very quickly the invading microbes start to die, they're killed off, they starve, and they just become inactive.

[Robert Krulwich]

So it happens and it's over and nobody wins.

[Jack Gilbert]

Precisely. There's mutual decay.

[Robert Krulwich]

So am I now a successful invasive species on his hand?

[Jack Gilbert]

Well, some of your microbes are successful invasive species, but yeah, absolutely.

[Robert Krulwich]

How would you explain my success?

[Jack Gilbert]

What we think actually happened is that something disrupted Neil's ecosystem. Right. And we think, based on the analysis, that there was a streptococcus, which is.

[Robert Krulwich]

Usually quite rare, but that doesn't sound so good. Streptococcus.

[Jack Gilbert]

Well, there are lots of species of Streptococcus, but not all of them are pathogenic. So there was a streptococcus that was very abundant on your hand at the beginning, that was transferred to Neil's hand. And we see that transfer occurring. And that Streptococcus somehow disrupted Neil's ecosystem and allowed for a greater transfer of bacteria from your hand to his hand.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, man, that's so interesting. So you have like a little band of murderous little bacteria that went and cleared away the forest and then so that the rest of you could come in and colonize.

[Robert Krulwich]

I don't know. I don't think anybody is the answer to that question. All I know is that I'm all over the man.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I don't Mind some of Robert slathered on my body. That's fine.

[Jack Gilbert]

Do you feel any defensiveness towards the fact that he managed to conquer your microbiome and yet yours was unable to do the same to him?

[Robert Krulwich]

That, by the way, is producer Simon Adler.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So the word conquer, in that context, I would reword the sentence and say my microbiome was perfectly content staying where it is. And apparently Robert's microbiome can't wait to get the hell off his body.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh, man. I came here thinking I would find out how long President Kennedy stayed on me. Now there's suddenly a new question.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Cause if he's a cool cucumber, it's how long you stayed on him? Yeah.

[Jack Gilbert]

Yeah.

[Radio Host/Announcer]

I believe the List Nation should submit itself to achieving a goal before this decade is out of landing a man on the moon safely.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. Maybe you're the anomaly. Yeah, you're the creepy, sweaty man with wet palms.

[Robert Krulwich]

That's what you come here for. Like the repost.

[Radio Host/Announcer]

When an irresistible force such as you meet an old immovable object like me. You can bet as sure as you live. Something's gotta give. Something's gotta give.

[Robert Krulwich]

Something's gotta give. Big, big thanks to astrophysicist and author Neil Degrasse Tyler for putting up with this shenanigans.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I can go five days without a shower and you wouldn't know it.

[Robert Krulwich]

The man is smelling his armpits for the moment, but we'll just smell my armpits that moment.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Like I just don't smell. Let me smell your armpit.

[Robert Krulwich]

I don't want you to smell.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I'm gonna smell your arm.

[Robert Krulwich]

What if it smells terrible?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Then it's on the way to smelling bad. Oh, yes, it's on, but it's not repulsive.

[Robert Krulwich]

I'm never.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

She's being nice.

[Robert Krulwich]

Something's got a give. Something's got to give. Something's got to give Something's got to give. Something got to give.

[Jad Abumrad]

This story was produced by Simon Adler.

[Robert Krulwich]

Big thanks to Jared Marcel, who did a lot of the technical work, the lab work that gave us our microbial analysis. Also to the Montefiore Medical Center. Also to science writer and author Ed Young, whose book I Contain Multitudes is a primer on all things microbiomic. And it was talking to Ed where I began thinking, oh, yeah, that Jack Kennedy handshake. So that's how this whole thing got started. And then when things really got going, that's when the team at WNYC's Only Human kicked in. That's Amanda Aranchic. Elaine Chen, Kenny Malone, Julian Weinberger. These are the ones who were with me all the way and stuck with this whole crazy thing with the swabs.

[Jad Abumrad]

And whatever and speaking, which if you want to get in on the action, this is kind of cool. So the whole JFK situation that Robert just did, you can kind of do it too. This company called ubiome has offered the chance for a thousand listeners, a thousand listeners to get sent some swabs, which you will swab on your hand, put it in a envelope, I assume, and then mail it back. They will sequence it and then tell you all the stuff that's on your hand. And you can start that whole process by going to our website, Radiolab.org or OnlyHuman.

[Robert Krulwich]

And actually, next week they are putting on their own show which involves a microbial robbery. That is, can you catch the robber if all you can see are the microbes?

[Jad Abumrad]

I believe your house figures into that.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yes. There's an actual robbery in my home.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yes.

[Robert Krulwich]

And also go to our website, because along with Only Human, we are putting up a very short animation of the handshake situation done by Nate Milton, which is. It's just gloriously weird.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, and quick reminder, you can listen to Radiolab anytime on Spotify.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay, Jed, I would shake your hand, but I. I'm not touching you anymore.

[Jad Abumrad]

Keep your distance.

[Siobhan Dolan (voice message)]

To play the message, press 2. To go to the next message, press 6. Message 2. New from phone number. Hi, this is Chat. Gilbert Simon suggested I should give the text to read out for the credit. Hi, this is Siobhan Dolan. I got the message to call in and read the text and I apologize if it's too late. I just got home. So, anyway, here's the text for me to read. Radiolab is produced by Jad Ab. Sorry, I'll start again. Radiolab is produced by Jad Abumrad. Dylan Keefe is our director of sound design. Lauren Wheeler is senior editor. Jamie York is our senior producer. Our staff includes Simon Adler, David Gebbel, Tracy Hunt, Matt Kielty, Matt Kielty, Robert Krulwich, Annie McEwen, Latifah Sear, Melissa O', Donnell, Arianne Wack and Molly Webster, with help from Valentina Boanani, Ohanini Nyga Fatili, Nigel Fatah Lee, Phoebe Wang and Katie Ferguson. Our fact checker is Michelle Harris. Thanks. Let me know if that works. Bye.

[Robert Krulwich]

Bye.

[Siobhan Dolan (voice message)]

Cheers. End of mailbox.