Radiolab – "Grumpy Old Terrorists"

Original Air Date: June 4, 2012
Hosts: Jad Abumrad, Robert Krulwich
Guest Contributor: Tom Junod (Esquire magazine), Dina Temple-Raston (NPR counterterrorism correspondent)
Producer: Pat Walters

Episode Overview

In "Grumpy Old Terrorists," Radiolab investigates an unsettling case: a group of elderly retirees caught on tape plotting terror attacks. The story upends assumptions about the typical profile of domestic terrorists and explores the blurred lines between dangerous intent and provocative talk. The episode wrestles with the question: How do we decide when talk turns into a real threat—especially when the would-be perpetrators defy expectations?

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Unlikely Terrorists

[02:02–04:27]

• The Case: Four elderly men in Georgia were arrested after being caught planning attacks including bombings, assassinations, and poisoning via ricin.
• Profile Shock: They were retirees ("white hair, white beards") in their seventies—not the stereotypical young militant.
• The Headline: The local paper ran the story with an atypical headline: "'They Don't Fit the Profile.'"
• Quote:

  "These were not your usual teenage terrorists. These guys, at least some of them were in their 70s. They were retirees."
  – Jad Abumrad [04:27]

2. Grievances, Fantasies & Health

[06:04–08:29]

• Focus on Fred Thomas: The group's most vocal member—a retired Navy man, physically frail, yet the driving force behind the plot.
• Motivation: Disappointment with the country, particularly after the 2008 election.
• Quote:

  "He begins going on to these militia sites, saying that the country that he served has now abrogated his trust."
  – Robert Krulwich [06:32]

• Contradiction: Despite big talk, Thomas suffered poor health, including emphysema and recent lung surgery.

3. Risk Assessment: Is Talk Action?

[08:44–12:05]

• Dangerous Fantasies vs. Real Threats:
  The panel debates whether age and infirmity make the threat less real, or possibly more dangerous due to "nothing to lose."
• Historical Analogy: NPR’s Dina Temple-Raston points out the example of James von Brunn, the 88-year-old Holocaust Museum shooter.
  • Quote:

    "If you saw this man frail, wow. Does that fit any sort of profile? It doesn't."
    – Dina Temple-Raston [09:38]

• Personal Stakes:

  "Now he wanted to, like, leave something behind for his grandchildren and fix the country before he went out."
  – Robert Krulwich [10:06]

4. Law Enforcement’s Dilemma

[12:19–14:47]

• The Entrapment Concern:
  The FBI’s use of confidential informants and undercover agents to enable, and possibly instigate, the plotters’ actions fuels debate about “thought crimes.”
  • Quote:

    "If they weren't even at some sort of level going to do it without the addition of Joe Sims and an undercover FBI agent, it comes really, really close to prosecuting thawed crimes."
    – Robert Krulwich [16:26]

• FBI’s Approach:
  Law enforcement sometimes allows plots to develop further as a way to "test" if the suspects are willing to take real steps.

5. Where is The Line?

[12:48–15:28]

• No Clear Rule:
  Determining when "talk" becomes criminal intent isn’t clearly defined.
  • Quote:

    "It's a gut thing in the end, for law enforcement... they have to decide whether or not somebody's a real threat or whether it's somebody they have to watch."
    – Dina Temple-Raston [12:48]

• Example Provided:
  The story of "Samadhi" in Dallas, who attempted to detonate what he believed was a real bomb, arranged by the FBI to test his intent.

6. The Climax: The Arrest

[17:51–19:28]

• Operation Details:
  The arrest unfolded in a Walmart parking lot, with the FBI using money and equipment supplied via informants/agents.
• SWAT Tactics:
  Flash grenades were used; the elderly suspects were stunned and visibly terrified by the operation’s intensity.
• Quote:

  "Flash grenades are those things that...explode with a blinding burst of light and a tremendous loud noise. The whole purpose...is just shock and awe."
  – Robert Krulwich [18:55]

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the Surreal Nature of the Case:

  "Should I laugh? Like, oh, these are just some old dudes getting a little heated, or should I be really afraid?”
  – Jad Abumrad [05:27]

• On Fantasy vs. Threat:

  “I just think that there was an element of fantasy in this thing, which is scary, but present in almost all of it.”
  – Robert Krulwich [11:57]

• Exposing the Law Enforcement Dilemma:

  "But they would never have dialed it had you not given it to them."
  – Dina Temple-Raston [15:15]

• The Emotional Impact on the Suspects:

  "...one of the things that they noticed when they stood up was, you know, they. They both had, you know, stained their pants. Because they were so scared."
  – Robert Krulwich [19:28]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction of the Unlikely Terrorists: [02:14–04:27]
• Fred Thomas Profile: [06:04–08:29]
• Comparisons to Von Brunn: [09:05–09:46]
• Debate: Fantasists or Real Threats?: [11:02–12:05]
• FBI Tactics and Entrapment: [13:15–16:26]
• Sally Yates (U.S. Attorney) Comments: [16:50–17:20]
• The Arrest: [17:51–19:28]

Takeaways

• Age and background may not correlate clearly with risk; old age does not preclude deadly intent.
• The line between angry talk and real threat is blurred and subjective, with serious consequences hinging on gut decisions by law enforcement.
• FBI strategies to unmask intent can themselves risk pushing would-be plotters over the line, raising ethical and practical questions about prevention vs. entrapment.

Closing Reflection

The episode ends with a sense of ambiguity: Have we become safer? How should society balance vigilance against overreach? The story leaves the audience pondering not just the surprising perpetrators, but the uncertainty that comes with preventing violence before it happens.

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