Hello

Summary

Summary of Radiolab Episode "Hello"

In the "Hello" episode of Radiolab, hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich and produced by Lynn Levy, the show explores humanity's enduring fascination with communicating with dolphins. This episode delves into both historical experiments and contemporary efforts aimed at bridging the communication gap between humans and these intelligent marine mammals.

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Introduction to the Quest for Dolphin Communication

The episode opens with Latif Nasser setting the stage for an exploration into the scientific endeavors aimed at translating animal languages, with a particular focus on dolphins. He introduces the idea that while recent headlines highlight various attempts to decipher animal sounds, the story they present today is considered "the greatest and most shocking" among them. (01:00)

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Margaret Lovett and John Lilly’s Pioneering Experiment

Margaret Lovett becomes the central figure as Lynn Levy and Jad Abumrad recount her involvement in a groundbreaking experiment initiated by John Lilly in the mid-1960s. Lilly, a physicist from Caltech, was one of the first scientists to propose that dolphins possess intelligence comparable to humans. He believed that with the right methods, dolphins could be taught to communicate in English.

Margaret volunteered to live with a young bottlenose dolphin named Peter in a specially designed apartment that was partially flooded to accommodate his aquatic nature. (06:04) She describes the unconventional living conditions:

Jad Abumrad [05:00]: "It was completely filled... so she could share it with this dolphin."

Margaret's daily life involved teaching Peter English sounds like "A, E, I, O," using a typewriter and microphones to document interactions. (06:01) Despite dolphins lacking the vocal apparatus for human speech, Peter showed remarkable progress in mimicking sounds and responding to names. (15:23)

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Challenges and Controversies

The experiment was not without its challenges. John Lilly resorted to controversial methods, including administering LSD to dolphins in hopes of enhancing their cognitive abilities and willingness to communicate. (17:56) This approach sparked ethical debates and ultimately led to the downfall of Lilly's funding and reputation.

Additionally, the intimate nature of Margaret's relationship with Peter led to sensational media portrayals. Margaret clarifies:

Jad Abumrad [18:32]: "He would hump her leg a lot, kind of like a dog might do... I never thought, ooh, this shouldn't be."

These controversies cast a shadow over the scientific validity of the experiment, making it difficult for subsequent research to gain traction.

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Denise Herzing and the Wild Dolphin Project

Transitioning from historical accounts, the episode introduces Dr. Denise Herzing, the Director of the Wild Dolphin Project. Inspired by early experiments like Lilly's, Herzing aims to foster a two-way communication system between humans and wild dolphins. Unlike the controlled environment Margaret experienced, Herzing's approach involves studying dolphins in their natural habitats to avoid the ethical pitfalls of confinement.

Denise Herzing [35:35]: "If I'm going to study these dolphins, I'm going to do it in the wild."

Herzing's team utilizes advanced technology to recognize and replicate dolphin signature whistles—a form of individual "names" used by each dolphin. The goal is to create a shared language where humans can understand and respond to dolphin communication. (27:00)

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Fieldwork and Communication Attempts

The core of Herzing's project involves extensive fieldwork in the Bahamas' "dolphin highway," a region frequented by pods of spotted dolphins. The team employs innovative methods, such as using scarves to engage dolphins and test their ability to understand and use human-generated signals.

Lynn Levy recounts a pivotal moment during one of their field expeditions:

Lynn Levy [33:15]: "Everything looks like a dolphin to me right now."

After months of patience and observation, the team begins to see promising signs of communication. For instance, dolphins start replicating the "scarf" whistle, indicating recognition and understanding of the term:

Graham Burnett [42:35]: "It's got pre-programmed whistles in it... we made signature whistles for ourselves."

Despite these encouraging developments, true reciprocal conversation remains elusive. Technical challenges, such as equipment failures and the unpredictable nature of wild dolphins, hinder consistent progress. (31:57)

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Ethical Considerations and Future Prospects

Throughout the episode, ethical considerations are a recurring theme. The team emphasizes the importance of respecting dolphins' autonomy and avoiding intrusive methods that could harm their well-being. Margaret reflects on her past experience:

Margaret Lovett [18:38]: "He would give LSD to dolphins... I wouldn't allow that."

Looking ahead, the team remains hopeful that continued dedication and technological advancements will eventually lead to meaningful communication. They envision a future where humans and dolphins can engage in complex dialogues, discussing topics ranging from daily activities to profound existential questions.

Graham Burnett [44:21]: "I want to ask everything. Do they think about the future? Do they think about the past?"

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Conclusion and Reflections

"Hello" concludes with introspective reflections on the possibility of interspecies communication. While significant strides have been made in understanding dolphin vocalizations and behaviors, the journey toward a genuine two-way conversation is ongoing. The episode underscores the blend of scientific rigor, ethical responsibility, and sheer curiosity driving these endeavors.

Robert Krulwich [46:31]: "Do you have faith?"

Lynn Levy [46:38]: "I have faith that... we'll be able to talk about concrete things... that is pretty impressive in its own way."

Radiolab's "Hello" not only chronicles the ambitious attempts to converse with dolphins but also invites listeners to ponder the broader implications of such communication. It highlights the intersection of science, ethics, and the innate human desire to connect with other intelligent beings on our planet.

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Notable Quotes:

• Margaret Lovett [06:04]: "I had no idea. I was programmed by John to work on this speech."

• Graham Burnett [08:15]: "What do hands get you? They make us tool users."

• Denise Herzing [35:35]: "If I'm going to study these dolphins, I'm going to do it in the wild."

• Lynn Levy [36:38]: "It was heart stopping. That was unbelievable. That was so cool."

• Graham Burnett [44:21]: "I want to ask everything. Do they think about the future? Do they think about the past?"

---

This comprehensive summary captures the essence of the "Hello" episode, detailing the historical context, personal narratives, scientific endeavors, and the ethical considerations surrounding the quest to communicate with dolphins. Through engaging storytelling and insightful dialogue, Radiolab invites listeners to reflect on the possibilities and challenges of interspecies understanding.

Transcript

[Latif Nasser]

Radiolab is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Jad Abumrad]

The kind of burgers you get today.

[Robert Krulwich]

Tells you a lot about yourself.

[Jad Abumrad]

You're either someone who settles for sad.

[Lynn Levy]

Same old, same old burgers or you're Edit Carl's Jr.

[Jad Abumrad]

Obsessed with a tangy OG Western bacon.

[Latif Nasser]

Cheeseburger, demanding a house made guacamole loaded guac bacon, fired up for the insanely.

[Lynn Levy]

Hot El Diablo or craving a classic.

[Latif Nasser]

Char world famous star.

[Lynn Levy]

Give into your flavor cravings.

[Jad Abumrad]

Get your mouth to Carl's Jr Big.

[Margaret Lovett]

Burger good burger.

[Lynn Levy]

Listener support it WNYC Studios.

[Latif Nasser]

Hey, this is Radiolab. I'm Latif Nasser. Over the last year, there has been a cascade of headlines about scientists trying to use AI to translate animal languages into a form we can understand. At this very moment, brilliant scientists and sophisticated algorithms are trying to decipher the snuffles of pigs, the honks of geese, the squeaks of mice, the barks of dogs, the caws of crows, the moos of cows, the clucks of chickens, the chirps of fruit bats, the meows of cats, and the songs of sperm whales. Those are just the ones that have been reported in the last year or so. But turns out people have been trying to listen and talk across the species divide for way longer than that. Today we bring you a Radiolab story, originally broadcast in 2014, about what is, I would argue, the greatest and most shocking of these stories. And what's even better is it's told by a human in the first person. Someone who is right there. Might not be appropriate for younger kids or more sensitive listeners, but with that warning. Here you go. Hello from Radiolab. That's how you say enjoy. Endophinies, I think.

[Lynn Levy]

Wait, you're listening. Okay. All right.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay.

[Lynn Levy]

All right. You're listening to Radio Lab.

[Denise Herzing]

Radio Lab from wnyc.

[Lynn Levy]

Rewind. Hello, this is Lynn. Someone on the other side of this. Hey, Lynn.

[Robert Krulwich]

So a couple months ago, our producer, Lynn Levy did an interview with this woman.

[Lynn Levy]

Yeah, her name is Margaret Lovett. Yes, and this was Margaret's first time doing a radio interview.

[Jad Abumrad]

That magic voice. This is so fun.

[Lynn Levy]

But this was definitely not her first time talking into a microphone. 1, 2, 3, 4.

[Jad Abumrad]

This is the yellow mic. 1, 2, 3, four.

[Lynn Levy]

This is the orange microphone. Almost exactly 50 years ago. The following recording was made on November.

[Jad Abumrad]

19Th, 1964 at 2300 hours.

[Lynn Levy]

Margaret was at the center of this amazing, weird experiment.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lynn Levy]

Who were you at that time? Like, what were you like?

[Jad Abumrad]

Well, I've always had a bit of if everybody's going left, I'll go right.

[Lynn Levy]

She tried college for a while, Tulane.

[Jad Abumrad]

University for a year, but she dropped out and I was what, 20 or 19 or something at that point, and.

[Lynn Levy]

Moved to St. Thomas in the Caribbean.

[Jad Abumrad]

I'd never been to an island.

[Lynn Levy]

Got a job at this hotel, did.

[Jad Abumrad]

Menus, checked people in and out.

[Lynn Levy]

And one day she hears about this strange research facility on the other side of the island.

[Jad Abumrad]

And I thought, I wonder what that is about. And I asked a few people and they said, oh no, no, they don't like people there, can't go there. And I was told not to go there, so I went there.

[Lynn Levy]

Hmm.

[Jad Abumrad]

And that's how it all started.

[Robert Krulwich]

That's how we're gonna start this show. I'm Jad Abumran.

[Thad Starner]

I'm Robert Krulwich.

[Robert Krulwich]

Today on Radiolab, producer Lynn Levy brings us a couple of close encounters. Although not with aliens.

[Thad Starner]

No, it's not in outer space. Cause it's much closer to home in this case.

[Robert Krulwich]

Although they are kind of alien, like. Yes, alien, like not Lin Galvan.

[Lynn Levy]

Margaret's a dolphin. Yes, that's. The show's about dolphins. Yay.

[Robert Krulwich]

We're calling this hour. Hello.

[Lynn Levy]

So when Margaret got to this mysterious place, there were dolphins there and what happened was she ended up becoming roommates with a dolphin.

[Robert Krulwich]

Do you mean in the like bed Stuy, one bedroom apartment sense?

[Lynn Levy]

Sort of, yeah. She did end up living with a dolphin for many months in this apartment, I, E. A E in the fire department. Mm. Had a little desk, had a little kitchen area with a stove.

[Jad Abumrad]

I think it was a little two burner stove or something and a pot and a tea kettle.

[Lynn Levy]

But the thing that's a little bit weird about the apartment is that the whole apartment was filled with water.

[Graham Burnett]

It was completely filled.

[Jad Abumrad]

Well, I wasn't submerged, but I was in water up mid thigh sort of.

[Lynn Levy]

It was just flooded with water just about there. So she could share it with this.

[Jad Abumrad]

Dolphin, a young male, Peter, his royal Highness Peter.

[Lynn Levy]

Peter was a 10 foot long bottlenose dolphin, young adolescent male. And he lived there with Margaret and like he would, you know, he could like swim under the desk and there was a balcony. He could like swim out onto the balcony.

[Robert Krulwich]

The balcony was flooded too.

[Lynn Levy]

The balcony was also flooded. Yeah. It's really cool.

[Robert Krulwich]

And what was the idea? I mean, to try and study a dolphin.

[Lynn Levy]

To study the dolphin, first of all, and take a lot of notes, extensive notes. Did you have waterproof paper?

[Jad Abumrad]

No, I had a typewriter on this board hanging from the ceiling.

[Lynn Levy]

They also had microphones everywhere. And specifically, the task she was given, a E, I, O, was to teach Peter to speak English. A P, I, O.

[Robert Krulwich]

And she was supposed to teach the dolphin English?

[Lynn Levy]

Yep.

[Jad Abumrad]

Really well. I mean, this was John Lilly's project.

[Lynn Levy]

Just for some context, you know how people get all, like, a little bit crazy these days about dolphins. They have, like, you know, shirts with dolphins and necklaces with dolphins, and everybody has, like, dolphin hair bands, dolphin blacklight posters. Right. So this all kind of sort of comes from this guy, John Lilly, who was a scientist, a researcher starting in the 40s.

[Margaret Lovett]

A total right stuff. Physics major kind of guy out of Caltech.

[Lynn Levy]

Man's man, according to Graham Burnett.

[Margaret Lovett]

I'm a historian of science.

[Lynn Levy]

But then, according to Graham, John Lilly has this epiphany.

[Margaret Lovett]

During the Second World War, at the.

[Lynn Levy]

Time, people just weren't thinking that much about dolphins in general. Like, there was not this idea that they were sort of extraordinary beings. They were just like big dumb fish. You know, they were shot for sport. So John Lilly is doing this research about brain mapping, and he ends up working with dolphins. And the story that he's told goes that he was experimenting on these dolphins. And as he's working with them, you know, kind of like shoving things into their brains, they make noises, as would anyone. And when he listens back to the noises which he's recorded, it sounds to him like the dolphins are trying to speak to him, to say something to him in. Not in a. Not in a dolphiny way, but in a human way, like trying to speak English to him.

[Robert Krulwich]

Really?

[Lynn Levy]

Yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

What did he say the dolphin was trying to say to him?

[Lynn Levy]

I don't think that we know that, but it sounded to him enough like human speech that he thought, like, something's going on here. This is important. According to Graham, he said later that it made him realize, like, we're not.

[Margaret Lovett]

The only intelligent organisms out there, like, we have company, that maybe humans are. What happens when high intelligence evolves in an animal that also has hands? And dolphins are what happens when comparably, if not still more extravagant, intelligence evolves in an animal without hands.

[Lynn Levy]

What do hands get you?

[Margaret Lovett]

Well, hands basically get you an appet punching people in the head. You know, it makes us tool users. But the distance between, you know, the hammer that you use to knock open your coconut and the hammer that you use to knock open the head of that other CRO Magnon you were never that keen on is, in fact, zilch. There's no difference at all.

[Lynn Levy]

And by the time we got to the 60s with, you know, like, peace.

[Margaret Lovett]

And love, it was exciting to think that the dolphins and the whales have these huge brains, but they don't. Like, they're not after anything. They're not doing anything with it. They're not trying to hurt anybody. They're not building cities. They're just, like, being man.

[Lynn Levy]

And keep in mind, this is on the verge of the Vietnam War, where you have all this anxiety about what.

[Jad Abumrad]

Have they done to the Earth?

[Lynn Levy]

Overpopulation, environmental destruction, what have they done to our fair system? So very quickly, the dolphins become like.

[Margaret Lovett]

This, of how we might ourselves be so different than we'd come to feel we were, tragically. Does that make sense?

[Lynn Levy]

So John Lilly was one of the first people to get swept up in all this. He quits his government job, moves to the Caribbean and sets up this lab.

[Jad Abumrad]

John Lilly's communication research institute, to try.

[Lynn Levy]

To talk to dolphins, which is where Margaret ended up.

[Jad Abumrad]

And my feeling was this, that everybody was talking about how bright they were and how smart they were, and it was dolphins, dolphins, dolphins. And then it was the Hot Topic. And yet every day, everybody at the would get in their car and go home.

[Lynn Levy]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

And I thought, what is that?

[Lynn Levy]

So she volunteered to stay.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lynn Levy]

Her bed was on this kind of wooden platform in the middle of the apartment.

[Jad Abumrad]

I was maybe two and a half, three inches above the water, and Peter was right there. And Peter could flip me a little water and wake me up at any point. And that was the whole point of it. I mean, this wasn't just sleep all night and then, excuse me, work in the day and then sleep again all night and then do some work in the day. I might as well go home. So I. Eventually, I didn't really shave my head, but I buzzed it, whatever it's called now. Really close. Because any, you know, the hair getting wet thing in the middle of the night was very annoying.

[Lynn Levy]

Yeah, of course.

[Jad Abumrad]

So I just got rid of the hair, and that was helpful. And then when Peter would come and squirt some water or want to play or throw something at me, then I could just roll off this elevator into the water and be with him and do whatever she says.

[Lynn Levy]

He was fascinated by the things she brought with her.

[Jad Abumrad]

A piece of clothes, a teabag. Teabag Was a fascinating thing. I drank, I drink tea and the teabag would fall into the water and he would come and get it and sonar it. This creaking noise they make when they're sonoring. And he'd look at it and take the string over his beak and sort of swim around very proudly with his teabag. And then he'd throw it up against a wall and it would stick and then he'd squirt water on it and it would come back down into the water and he would play with his teabag. Eventually, of course, he would bite it. He has very sharp teeth. And it would break. And that was a very exciting thing. When the teabag finally broke open, it had babies, as it were, zillions of tea leaves floating around. And he was sewn on them all in, wanting to count every single one of them.

[Lynn Levy]

And what did you think you would find out?

[Jad Abumrad]

I didn't know, you know, I was not coming at this from a science point of view. That's not what I was bringing to the table. Yeah, I just, I just. I had no idea. I was programmed by John to work on this speech.

[Lynn Levy]

A, E, I, O.

[Jad Abumrad]

He had sort of declared that they could probably speak.

[Lynn Levy]

A, E, I, O. Oh.

[Graham Burnett]

Look.

[Jad Abumrad]

When you're trying to have a conversation with someone.

[Lynn Levy]

Peter, Peter, listen.

[Jad Abumrad]

One person speaks and the other one listens, and then you speak and I listen. And people sort of normally do that back and forth. When you start with a dolphin making airborne sounds, once they get the idea, there's a lot of screaming that goes on. They're very show offy and they want to override you.

[Lynn Levy]

I am not. No, Peter, no, no.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay, so you have to spend a lot of time getting it down to. I'm talking now.

[Lynn Levy]

I can speak now.

[Jad Abumrad]

And now it's your turn.

[Thad Starner]

Come on.

[Lynn Levy]

I can speak now.

[Jad Abumrad]

And yet if he's upset about something, he'll override me.

[Lynn Levy]

Oh, Peter.

[Jad Abumrad]

And it's annoying.

[Lynn Levy]

Now listen again. No. What's this? Come on, Peter. 1, 2, 3, 3. Now start again. 1, 2, 3. Yes.

[Jad Abumrad]

But he learned very quickly to listen to me.

[Lynn Levy]

1, 2, 3, 4, y.

[Jad Abumrad]

And not to pick up my instructions. If I would say, no, no, no, Peter, I don't want you to do that. I want you to do this, this, this. He would give me back this, this. This parrot will often say, no, no, no, Polly want a cracker. They will repeat the whole thing of whatever you said. But Peter would pick up what I wanted when being a good student, and.

[Lynn Levy]

He was a good student.

[Jad Abumrad]

There Seemed to be with this one dolphin. Anyway. Can I speak for all of them? An interest in what we were doing. He wanted to practice. He wanted to get it right. There was a mirror. And he would spend long periods of time by himself. Didn't want me to be part of it. And he would practice whatever it was we had been doing in the lesson that day. Over and over and over and over. He wanted to get it right. That's not right. And he would work at that for no reason. He's not getting fish. I'm not interacting with him. And nothing. He just wants it right.

[Lynn Levy]

Like doing homework.

[Jad Abumrad]

Like homework, exactly.

[Lynn Levy]

And after a few months of this one, Peter did start to sound really different. 1, 2, 1, 2, 3. Peter fall. Good.

[Jad Abumrad]

He kept getting better. It's extremely difficult for them.

[Lynn Levy]

Hello.

[Jad Abumrad]

They just have a blowhole. They do not have the apparatus to really. Ss are almost impossible. I would feed him my name, Margaret. And M is very hard. He would eventually roll over almost into the water with the blowhole to muffle.

[Lynn Levy]

Margaret.

[Jad Abumrad]

Kind of a thing.

[Lynn Levy]

Really. You're saying he would use the water as a way to help him make the sound?

[Jad Abumrad]

Yes, with that word.

[Lynn Levy]

Oh, my God. And I think he knew that was your name.

[Jad Abumrad]

I don't know. But nevertheless, we were a pretty good match. I knew his mood, his temperament, and he knew mine. He knew when I was sick and I would get sick and you're in the water all the time, you're bound to get a cold or something. He just loved my anatomy. He wanted to know what my knees were doing. He would go behind my knee and sonar and look at it and feel it and push it and find out which way it would and wouldn't go. He just. And I gave him the time because I wasn't going home to look at my knee, to look at my feet. He was enormously interested, oddly enough, in the space between my fingers.

[Lynn Levy]

Really.

[Jad Abumrad]

Not the fingers so much, but he would. I mean, you know, his beak could just barely fit there. But he wanted to put in between each finger and see what that was all about. The same with the toes. He didn't have any spaces anywhere.

[Lynn Levy]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

You know, he had solid flippers but no space in between them.

[Lynn Levy]

Do you think he was so interested in your fingers and toes because he didn't have any.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yes, I do.

[Lynn Levy]

Margaret and Peter ended up spending about nine months living together. But towards the end, things kind of started to unravel. First of all, there weren't really results from this experiment. They never were able to publish Any scientific papers. And there were other problems. Lily got very involved in. Drugs, lsd.

[Jad Abumrad]

He did bring it down. He did give lsd. He says he did. I believe him. To two of the dolphins. I would not let him give LSD to Peter. I wouldn't allow that.

[Robert Krulwich]

Why would he give them LSD?

[Lynn Levy]

Well, it's not 100% clear, but it seems like he was trying to find a way to get the dolphins to open up, to connect, maybe to talk. In any case, by 1965, 66, his funding had started to dry up. And when people heard about Margaret's work, they tended to focus on, like, one particular part of the story. You don't have to answer, but a lot has been made of your sort of sexually engaging with Peter. And I just want to ask, because you don't seem like a shrinking violet. I just want to ask, is there anything you want to say about that?

[Jad Abumrad]

What would I like to say about that? I think the sensational side of it.

[Lynn Levy]

Is, here's what Margaret told me. Peter was a young dolphin. He was horny, and he would hump her leg a lot, kind of like a dog might do, which was getting in the way of their work.

[Jad Abumrad]

So eventually I just said, the heck.

[Lynn Levy]

With it, and she'd use her hand.

[Jad Abumrad]

To, you know, and it would quickly satisfy him, and then we could go back to doing what we were doing. And I never really gave it another thought. I never thought, ooh, don't let anybody know. I never thought, ooh, this shouldn't be.

[Lynn Levy]

But because of details like this and the drugs, this experiment became extremely controversial, almost untouchable. People didn't want to be associated with Lilly. Nobody wanted to fund anything that sounded like Lilly. It just got this, like, aura of, don't go there, don't go there. Even people who wanted to do really rigorous work with human dolphin communication had a tough time getting any funding. And that lasted for a long time. And the thing is, even though there are so many reasons to disapprove of this experiment, when you talk to Margaret, you can't help but want to be in that apartment with them.

[Jad Abumrad]

He would come over and when he was in what I call his sweet mood, and Peter had a lot of very, very sweet mood to him, he would sink to the bottom and take my foot in his mouth. And he wasn't sonoring and he wasn't looking at anything. It was almost like a little kid comes and just wants to hold your hand. And he would just sink to the bottom and close his eyes and just hang on to my foot. And then he'd have to come up and breathe, and then he'd go back down and he just grab my foot. And he would do this for a good while.

[Thad Starner]

We'll be back in a moment with another encounter.

[Denise Herzing]

Hey, Jon Favreau here. There's no shortage of political takes in 2024, but quantity doesn't cut it. We need a better conversation about the latest, biggest election of our lives. On Pod Save America, me and my co hosts cut through the noise to help you figure out what matters and how you can help. Every Tuesday, Wednesday, and Friday, Pod Save America is breaking down the political news that makes us laugh, cry, and snap our laptops in half. Expensive year for laptops. Make sure to check out new episodes of Pod Save America on your favorite podcast platform or our YouTube channel now.

[Robert Krulwich]

Hey, I'm Jad Abumrad.

[Thad Starner]

I am Robert Krulwich.

[Robert Krulwich]

This is Radiolab. And today.

[Thad Starner]

Hello.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yes.

[Thad Starner]

Or as a dolphin might say.

[Robert Krulwich]

How would a dolphin say it?

[Thad Starner]

I don't know.

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, and you know what? That is exactly kind of the question of this next segment. I mean, the dream that a human being can talk to a dolphin or any animal really get in their heads and cross that gap.

[Thad Starner]

This is a dream that humans have had since, like, forever.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah. St. Francis of Assisi goes way back now insofar as dolphins are concerned. After the John Lilly situation, researchers did get a little tepid.

[Thad Starner]

Yeah, but they didn't stay tepid, as you say, for long.

[Graham Burnett]

No.

[Robert Krulwich]

Because along came this woman, Dr. Denise.

[Graham Burnett]

Herzing, Director of the Wild Dolphin Project.

[Robert Krulwich]

Who basically decided to take John Lilly's experiment and flip it. Rather than have the dolphin speak English, let's have the human speak dolphin. Or at the very least, let's create a shared language where humans and dolphins.

[Lynn Levy]

Can speak or at least whistle.

[Graham Burnett]

Well, you know, it's about finding a place you can meet.

[Robert Krulwich]

Back to producer Lynn Levy.

[Lynn Levy]

Okay, so for Denise, this dream of finding that meeting spot, it goes back to when she was a little girl.

[Graham Burnett]

Well, when I was 12 years old, I used to page through the Encyclopedia Britannica in the days when we had books. And I would always stop at the Whale and dolphin page, look at the dolphins and go, wow, I wonder what their brains are like because they've evolved in the water.

[Lynn Levy]

Were you thinking that when you were 12?

[Jad Abumrad]

I was.

[Graham Burnett]

I was. I was a total nerd. In fact, I. I entered this contest in Minnesota. Like, what would you do for the world if you could do something? And I actually wrote, I would build a Human animal translator so we could figure out what was going on in the minds of animals. So, yeah, I don't know. I got the bug early and here I am.

[Thad Starner]

You have. Were you having a fantasy about what you might learn?

[Graham Burnett]

A fantasy? No, I was just curious. So, I don't know. You look in their eyes, there's definitely something behind there. You just want to know what it is.

[Lynn Levy]

Fast forward many years. Denise got a boat and I went.

[Graham Burnett]

Out to the Bahamas.

[Lynn Levy]

She was like, if I'm going to study these dolphins, I'm going to do it in the wild.

[Graham Burnett]

That's where they live.

[Lynn Levy]

So she tracked down a pod of wild dolphins.

[Graham Burnett]

Yep, yep.

[Lynn Levy]

And she just tried to blend in.

[Graham Burnett]

I actually anchored the boat in one spot most of the time.

[Lynn Levy]

This spot in the Bermuda Triangle in the middle of.

[Graham Burnett]

I call it the dolphin highway, where.

[Lynn Levy]

Dolphins come and go.

[Graham Burnett]

They could come by if they wanted to, and if they didn't, they didn't.

[Lynn Levy]

When they would come by, she and her team would just slip into the.

[Graham Burnett]

Water and behave ourselves, Just sort of.

[Lynn Levy]

Watch paying attention to who was who, which dolphin had a crooked fin, which one didn't.

[Graham Burnett]

And when they'd leave, we'd get out. And that's really how we operated for the first five years. And it worked.

[Robert Krulwich]

Five years. She spent five years just watching, not doing anything else.

[Graham Burnett]

Yes.

[Thad Starner]

Doesn't this take an enormous amount of patience?

[Graham Burnett]

Well, sure. I mean, but after about five years, they started realizing, well, these guys aren't going to grab us and poke us and prod us. So they started just going about their.

[Lynn Levy]

Own business, like feeding, mating, nursing, and talking, or at least making a lot of noises, which she and her team would record.

[Robert Krulwich]

Wow. That's all dolphins?

[Lynn Levy]

They make all these. Yeah, like that. It's like there's like a clicking kind of quaking sound that they make.

[Robert Krulwich]

Ooh, it sounds like a zipper.

[Thad Starner]

Zipper. Yeah.

[Lynn Levy]

Yeah. They make, like, whistles that are more kind of distinct, and then they make sounds that are, like, longer and weirder and.

[Robert Krulwich]

And do you have any sense that each of these sounds mean something different?

[Lynn Levy]

Well, that's exactly what we don't know.

[Graham Burnett]

I could tell you what kinds of sounds are correlated with fighting and with mating or disciplining a calf. What we don't know is are there detailed kind of words in there? Is there more kind of encoded information?

[Lynn Levy]

But what they do know is that each dolphin seems to have its own.

[Graham Burnett]

Kind of signature whistle, which is basically a name. Every individual has its own name.

[Jad Abumrad]

Peter had a name.

[Lynn Levy]

Nobody's ever asked me that here's Margaret again.

[Jad Abumrad]

And his name was.

[Lynn Levy]

Really.

[Jad Abumrad]

It was almost saying Peter here.

[Lynn Levy]

Right.

[Graham Burnett]

So I can call you Lynn by your whistle and you Robert by your whistle.

[Thad Starner]

So I could be a dolphin going Lynn.

[Graham Burnett]

Exactly.

[Lynn Levy]

Do they do that?

[Graham Burnett]

They do, huh?

[Lynn Levy]

Not only that, apparently dolphins will use the names of other dolphins who aren't even around. Like they can't see them.

[Robert Krulwich]

Like they'll talk about each other behind their backs.

[Lynn Levy]

Yes, maybe.

[Robert Krulwich]

Wow. That means that they're using representations of things which aren't in front of them, which is sort of like the beginning of language.

[Lynn Levy]

If that's what they're doing and we don't know, but if that's what they're doing, then yeah, that's kind of like the edge of language.

[Graham Burnett]

So, you know, it gives us hope that there's probably more information going on there than we know.

[Lynn Levy]

And now finally, she has that device.

[Robert Krulwich]

Which device again?

[Lynn Levy]

The magical, you know, human animal translator device that she was dreaming of writing about when she was 12. She has this box that can generate dolphin noises and it can recognize dolphin noises. And if it works the way that, you know that she's dreaming, it'll work. It could be the first, like real two way back and forth conversation between a human and a wild animal.

[Graham Burnett]

So we're looking forward to this summer and getting out and getting more data and really exercising the boxes and see what happens. Good, we're ready.

[Lynn Levy]

So I beg my way aboard.

[Graham Burnett]

Everybody good seasick pills.

[Lynn Levy]

We left on July 8 from Florida and headed for the Bahamas to see this pod that she has been following.

[Graham Burnett]

Kind of forever, almost 30 years now.

[Lynn Levy]

Boat is called the RV Stenella Stonella is the scientific name for this particular type of dolphin, the spotted dolphin. Have you seen a spotted dolphin? I've never seen one in person before. Right here on Star west side, right behind.

[Robert Krulwich]

What is this boat like?

[Lynn Levy]

It's like not a tiny boat, but it's not a big boat. And it was just absolutely full of humans.

[Thad Starner]

And who, who is, who are your humans?

[Lynn Levy]

Well, there's Denise, obviously, and you got a captain. My name is Keir Smith. First mate Danielle. Research assistants Allison Myers, Celeste Mason, Bethany Olier.

[Robert Krulwich]

Nathan Skripchek.

[Lynn Levy]

Volunteers. Drew Mayer. There's a acoustics expert, Matthias. For a long time, I couldn't even figure out where everybody was sleeping because the boat seemed so small. I was like, there is not room for all these people on this boat.

[Thad Starner]

Behind you, there's a hot soldering iron next to the fridge and I haven't.

[Lynn Levy]

Even gotten to this guy don't get into him. His name is Thad Starner. So you didn't have any dolphin experience before this, right?

[Thad Starner]

Oh, hell no.

[Lynn Levy]

He's one of the guys who invented Google Glass.

[Thad Starner]

I became a computer programmer so I.

[Margaret Lovett]

Never have to leave air conditioning, right.

[Thad Starner]

And I'm out here in what is this hundred degree weather to do what?

[Lynn Levy]

So his job on the boat is to. He's in charge of these, these boxes.

[Thad Starner]

Those boxes probably cost us 100k at this point.

[Graham Burnett]

We're looking for funding.

[Thad Starner]

Looking for funding.

[Lynn Levy]

So he's the tech whiz.

[Graham Burnett]

When he came down to visit my lab, I was telling about the two way work and the difficulty with underwater stuff. And he said, oh, I build wearable computers, so can you build me an underwater wearable computer?

[Thad Starner]

That shouldn't be hard. Four years. What does this machine look like that.

[Lynn Levy]

You looks like a toaster, like one of those fancy chrome toasters, except you wear it on your chest.

[Thad Starner]

Are they silvery? In fact?

[Lynn Levy]

They are silvery. They have a bunch of sort of knobs and buttons and speakers on them.

[Graham Burnett]

It's got pre programmed whistles in it. I can punch a key and it projects whistle A, hear whistle B here.

[Lynn Levy]

Whistle C. She's programmed in signature whistles of some of the dolphins.

[Graham Burnett]

Rat Hall, Bijou. And we made signature whistles for ourselves.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh, she can call their names and they can call her names. That's what she's saying.

[Lynn Levy]

That is the idea. Yeah. And if they do call her name, this name that she's made for herself, then the box should be able to recognize it and can tell her that she's been called by name. It'll actually say into her ear in English, Denise.

[Robert Krulwich]

Huh?

[Graham Burnett]

This is real time. I call it real time sound recognition, but it's real time whistle recognition underwater.

[Robert Krulwich]

How does, if she's made up this name for herself, how is it that they're going to know that that's her name?

[Lynn Levy]

Well, the idea is that they're learning. So she gets into the water over and over and she says, you know, the equivalent of hi, I'm Denise. Hi, I'm Denise. Over and over and over. And they learn it, you know, they develop this.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh, like maybe they'll just start to use it and call her.

[Graham Burnett]

Yeah, so you hope they call you. I'd be really sad if they didn't call my name.

[Robert Krulwich]

But I guess at the very least she could call their names and see how they react.

[Lynn Levy]

Right.

[Thad Starner]

Well, see, that would be a eureka moment. I think if you hit the Lolita button and Lolita suddenly turned and looked right at you with a shock of exactly what the heck?

[Lynn Levy]

Wow.

[Graham Burnett]

That human called me by my signature whistle. Whoa.

[Thad Starner]

Has that happened yet?

[Graham Burnett]

It hasn't happened yet.

[Lynn Levy]

And this is something I just did not appreciate for a while I was on this boat. I was like, why is this so hard? Like, this seems like it should be. These people are so smart. Like, this should be easy. But they're just constantly being defeated by the ocean, basically, which the ocean is like a worthy foe. But it's like the first year.

[Thad Starner]

First year was a complete disaster. Trying to get the hardware to work.

[Lynn Levy]

What happened the first year?

[Margaret Lovett]

Everything broke.

[Lynn Levy]

It was leak city. Basically, the boxes just kept shutting down as soon as they would get in the water.

[Thad Starner]

That's not good.

[Lynn Levy]

It's not good. That's sort of not what you want.

[Graham Burnett]

No.

[Lynn Levy]

And last year we had the boxes.

[Thad Starner]

Working, but then we couldn't find the dolphins.

[Lynn Levy]

The dolphins just disappeared.

[Thad Starner]

Where did they go?

[Graham Burnett]

You know, they went 100 miles away to another location.

[Lynn Levy]

They don't know why I kept up.

[Thad Starner]

With my side of the deal. Your dolphins stood you up?

[Jad Abumrad]

Gee.

[Lynn Levy]

And one of the reasons I was on the boat is it felt like everybody was thinking, like, this is it. This is the year. We're going to go out there, we're going to find some dolphins, and we're going to make some history. You ready? Ready.

[Graham Burnett]

Excited.

[Lynn Levy]

Now? Any minute now. Okay. It turns out it's not that easy to find these dolphins. They're not tagged, you know, they're wild dolphins. So you just like, you go to where you think they might be. Did you know that song? You stare at the water and you wait. Yeah. What is that? For the first three days, pretty much, we were just driving around Game of Thrones in circles. Like, literally in circles. You know, I feel like I had like a. Like a five hour conversation about Game of Thrones. I've never even seen an episode of Game of Thrones. Any dolphins? Any dolphins anywhere? Oh, right. No. There's nothing else to do.

[Latif Nasser]

Come on, dolphins Come on, dolphins we.

[Lynn Levy]

Need you now Come on, dolphins Come.

[Latif Nasser]

On, dolphins Come on, dolphins to kick.

[Lynn Levy]

In, dolphins, Dolphins See a piece of seaweed, it would look like a dolphin. Dolphins, Come on, dolphins A wave that looks like a dolphin. I have to say that I'm like, everything looks like a dolphin to me right now.

[Graham Burnett]

There are days like that.

[Lynn Levy]

Dolphins, dolphins. Oh, yeah, they are right there. All of a sudden, out on the water, we see one fin, two fins, three fins, five, six, seven, eight, nine. Oh, there's so Many of them. And they're so cool. And as we're all standing there watching them, Denise turns to me and she goes, you want to go in? I don't know. Do you recommend it? And I was not prepared for her to say that. And also, I was holding recording equipment and everything. And so I just. I ended up just having to go in, like, in my clothes, like, wearing, like, my shorts and, like, a bra. And I had, like, all modesty aside, like, thrown aside. They were like, you can go in. And I was like, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. Go on. Jesus Christ. Here I go. Other species. Um.

[Robert Krulwich]

We'Ll be right back.

[Denise Herzing]

Hey, Jon Favreau here. There's no shortage of political takes in 2024, but quantity doesn't cut it. We need a better conversation about the latest, biggest election of our lives. On Pod Save America, me and my co host cut through the noise to help you figure out what matters and how you can help. Every Tuesday, Wednesday and Friday, Pod Save America is breaking down the political news that makes us laugh, cry, and snap our laptops in half. Expensive year for laptops. Make sure to check out new episodes of Pod Save America on your favorite podcast platform or our YouTube channel now.

[Robert Krulwich]

Hey, I'm Jad Abumrad.

[Thad Starner]

I'm Robert Krulwich.

[Robert Krulwich]

This is Radiolab. And today the show's called hello Back to Lynn.

[Lynn Levy]

I mean, it's a total sensory shift. The temperature changes, everything goes quiet. It almost feels like this classic through the looking glass moment where you go through the looking glass and everybody's walking on the ceiling. And I jumped in and there were two pretty big dolphins coming right at me, maybe two feet from my head and staring at me. And I was like, uh, I don't know what I know.

[Thad Starner]

What did you do?

[Lynn Levy]

I stayed very still. I pretty much froze.

[Robert Krulwich]

Now, how far were they from you?

[Lynn Levy]

Two feet.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh, my God.

[Lynn Levy]

Yeah. Yeah. Dolphins are not small. And they were looking at me in a way that was like, we see you. And also they're. They make these sort of clicking sonar Y sounds which are like.

[Thad Starner]

Do you think they were talking to you or are just talking about you?

[Lynn Levy]

Well, no, I mean, what I think they were doing is sonar ing me, sort of looking at me with sound. I mean, my head was vibrating. I mean, they can see not just body shape, they can see your bones. Oh, they can see into you. Like you really feel looked at.

[Thad Starner]

Wow.

[Lynn Levy]

It was heart stopping. That was un. Unbelievable. That was so cool. At that point, I was like, the trip could end now and I go home Happy, you know? And everybody was like, calm down. Those weren't even the right dolphins.

[Thad Starner]

What do you mean?

[Lynn Levy]

Well, those were bottlenose dolphins. Denise studies spotteds. But the next day.

[Graham Burnett]

All right. Onward for spotteds. Spotteds are bust.

[Lynn Levy]

We set out again. Go for a few hours. Bethany does this dolphin dance. And God saw. Yeah, the dance worked. The dance worked.

[Latif Nasser]

You saw him, right?

[Lynn Levy]

Yeah, Right there. Yeah, There we go. So then everybody's like, you know, it's like all hands on deck situation. Everybody's, like, strapping on the boxes and strapping on the head. What are you doing?

[Thad Starner]

So there's a lot of scrambling to get.

[Lynn Levy]

There's so much scrambling.

[Latif Nasser]

Oh, there's one off the bow here.

[Lynn Levy]

It's like a fire. It's like a fire drill.

[Graham Burnett]

Now I'm putting on my box.

[Lynn Levy]

Here's the problem.

[Graham Burnett]

So I'm just testing.

[Lynn Levy]

Unlike a captive dolphin, wild dolphins, they have other things to do. They have, you know, fish to catch. You kind of have to entice it into having a conversation. Otherwise, it'll just swim away. But how do you do that when you don't know its language? Well, turns out dolphins are just crazy for scarves. Scarf high, scarf low. When you throw them a scarf, they sweep it up with their tail fin, and then they let it go, and it wafts through the water, and another dolphin comes up and sweeps it up with their rostrum. So the idea is you use the scarf as kind of like a bridge. Denise and another diver will get in the water with a scarf.

[Graham Burnett]

We'll get in the water, and we'll just start passing it back and forth, human to human.

[Lynn Levy]

Like, hey, look at this fun thing we're doing.

[Graham Burnett]

Let them watch. If they want to get in the game, we let them in the game. Sometimes we'll take the toy over to them, show it to them, and press the word for scarf. Say, hey, this is a scarf.

[Robert Krulwich]

They just made up a whistle for scarf.

[Lynn Levy]

Yep. And ideally, and this is the key, the dolphins will pick up the word and use it, too, to ask for the scarf. If and when they do that, then you've got, like, a tiny bit of common ground that you can build on. Okay, who you got?

[Graham Burnett]

We have four spotted dolphins. Our little candidates, Tristan and Pallets.

[Lynn Levy]

Yes, we've been waiting for them, right? We have. Just before they jump in, Denise walks another diver through the game plan.

[Graham Burnett]

So you're gonna hold it, and you're.

[Lynn Levy]

Not gonna give it to him.

[Graham Burnett]

You're gonna entice it with him. You're gonna Be like, oh, this is so nice. I, like, dive down with it and.

[Lynn Levy]

Like, wave it or. Yeah.

[Graham Burnett]

First start at the surface and just really get them with you.

[Lynn Levy]

Moments later. All clear.

[Graham Burnett]

Good. We're ready.

[Lynn Levy]

Denise jumps in, followed by three other divers. Four in the water.

[Robert Krulwich]

Were you in the water this time?

[Lynn Levy]

No, I actually had to watch the whole thing from the deck. And, like, you could see from the surface three or four adolescent dolphins. See, Denise is right up next to one of them. You see the back of her head and her little snorkel. That's good. She's surrounded right now. What are they doing?

[Robert Krulwich]

I'm not sure.

[Lynn Levy]

Oh, they're kind of, like, twisting around each other. I will say this. She is tremendously graceful in the water. She gets in the water, and she's, like, totally at home.

[Thad Starner]

So maybe she is a dolphin.

[Lynn Levy]

She might secretly be a dolphin going, like, around and around. And there she goes under. Man, what is happening under there? This is what it sounds like underwater.

[Robert Krulwich]

This is the actual sound from the scarf dance.

[Lynn Levy]

They record everything that goes on under there. I mean, a lot of that is the dolphins just doing whatever they're doing. But some of it is Denise with the box making this scarf whistle over and over. Like, scarf. You want the scarf? Yeah, scarf.

[Robert Krulwich]

Because she's, like, trying to get the dolphin to say the word, right?

[Lynn Levy]

Yeah. Eventually, she and the dolphins surface, and he's got the scarf. One of the dolphins is holding the scarf. Hey, it's like this flash of red.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yep.

[Lynn Levy]

And then they all go back under. And if Denise comes back up with.

[Thad Starner]

It, that's real good.

[Lynn Levy]

All right. Wait and see. After about a minute, she surfaces. I think Denise has it now. Got it. She dives one more time. A minute later, dolphin has the scarf. And this went on and on. They were passing it back and forth so fluidly that I thought maybe the dolphin has begun to ask for the scarf by name. Eventually, Denise gets gravity sucks. Hauled back up onto the boat, and we all just sort of gather around like, well. Well, yeah.

[Graham Burnett]

The two juveniles picked up the scarf right away. And we played some signature whistles and played some scarf whistles, and then some sargassum came floating by.

[Lynn Levy]

Piece of seaweed.

[Graham Burnett]

Showed him that and played the sargassum whistle.

[Lynn Levy]

You think you got any mimic?

[Graham Burnett]

Nothing that triggered the system, but, you know, we'll see what it looks like.

[Jad Abumrad]

Whew.

[Graham Burnett]

It's exhausting.

[Robert Krulwich]

Wait, she didn't get anything?

[Lynn Levy]

Well, I mean, nothing the box recognized as a match, you know, nothing that indicated the dolphin, like, learned a word.

[Robert Krulwich]

It sounded like they were right there.

[Lynn Levy]

But there was this one thing that happened. She said that when she addressed one of the dolphins by its name, the dolphin turned around and looked at her and kind of cocked its little dolphin head.

[Thad Starner]

Really?

[Lynn Levy]

Yes.

[Thad Starner]

I was hoping that you'd say that.

[Lynn Levy]

Wow. Also, there was this moment where Thad and Celeste were looking at the data later.

[Thad Starner]

Who is that?

[Lynn Levy]

And they saw that right after Denise made her signature whistle.

[Thad Starner]

Is that somebody responding with her signature whistle?

[Lynn Levy]

Another dolphin made its signature whistle. Sweet. Whoa. That's pretty cool.

[Robert Krulwich]

You mean like she said hi and it said hi back?

[Lynn Levy]

Yeah.

[Thad Starner]

That's amazing.

[Lynn Levy]

Well, maybe. I mean, the thing is, dolphins make their signature whistles all the time. So it could be nothing or it could be this moment. I mean, she's a very rigorous scientist. Like she wants that to happen another 30 times before even starting to take it seriously. But still, it does make you think about the possibilities. What do you want to ask?

[Graham Burnett]

I don't know. I want to ask everything. So.

[Lynn Levy]

Like, what?

[Graham Burnett]

Oh, I'd like to know what their lives are like when we're not around. I mean, how do you spend your day? You know, do they think about things? I mean, do they think about the future? Do they think about the past? I mean, we know they have long term memories. You know, do they remember their calves from 10 years ago?

[Lynn Levy]

Do they think about death?

[Graham Burnett]

Yeah, they certainly see it. It'd be anything you'd ask your friends, right?

[Robert Krulwich]

Although part of me wonders, like, are they ever gonna even get there?

[Thad Starner]

What do you mean?

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, if the goal is to have a conversation and you can do it this way, we're. You're in the wild and you can't touch them and you've got to verify every whistle 35 times. Well, are they ever actually going to have a conversation?

[Thad Starner]

Well, because this is like day one of the language lesson, I could.

[Lynn Levy]

Yeah, I get it.

[Robert Krulwich]

But like, don't you feel like Margaret was. All the problems with that experiment aside, she was actually getting somewhere with Peter. Like they were actually having a real exchange in the moment.

[Thad Starner]

Perhaps. But thinking forward, I believe that what you can accomplish by talking, by having a two way conversation is just infinitely greater.

[Robert Krulwich]

And I totally agree. But if it's taken her 30 something years to get to a maybe. Hello. Yeah, she doesn't even know if she got to hello yet. And if all she has is just a limited amount of time with these dolphins every summer, then 50 more times, it's gonna take her 50 more years. And I'm just like, oh, God, the planet's gonna be 17 degrees warmer by that point. Dolphins are gonna have all migrated to some other spot. It just feels like, ugh, come on, just get in a pool and let the dolphin hold your foot.

[Thad Starner]

She's already got the hello going for her, maybe. So that's like a start. And then, yes, in 50 years, she may have moved past hello to a three word sentence. How's your mackerel today?

[Lynn Levy]

Yeah, I think that too. A three word sentence? Yes. I would put money on a three word sentence in 50 years. The question is, do we ever get to the point of exploring death? Yeah.

[Thad Starner]

Yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

I don't know, Lynn, do you have faith?

[Lynn Levy]

I have faith that if Denise continues with what she's doing, that we'll be able to talk about concrete things. We'll be able to talk about seaweed, and we'll be able to talk about coral, and we'll be able to have a scintillating conversation about scarves. I do believe that. And that is not nothing. I mean, that is pretty impressive in its own way.

[Robert Krulwich]

Big thanks this hour to our producer, Lynn Levy. I'm Jad Abumran.

[Thad Starner]

I'm Robert Krulwich.

[Robert Krulwich]

Thank you guys for listening.

[Thad Starner]

Hi, I'm David and I'm from Baltimore, Maryland. Radiolab was created by Jad Abumrad and is edited by Soren Wheeler.

[Latif Nasser]

Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser are our co hosts.

[Thad Starner]

Dylan Keefe is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Bressler, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Maria Paz, Gutierrez, Sindhu Nyanam Sambandan, Matt Kilty, Annie McEwen, Rebecca Lacks, Alex Neeson, Sara Kari, Sarah Sandbach, Arianne Wack, Pat Walters and Molly Webster. Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger and Natalie Middleton.

[Lynn Levy]

Hi, this is Susanna calling from Washington, D.C. leadership support for Radiolab science programming.

[Graham Burnett]

Is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation Science Sandbox, a Simons foundation.

[Lynn Levy]

Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation.

[Graham Burnett]

Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

[Thad Starner]

This is Ira Flato, host of Science Friday. For over 30 years, the science Friday team has been reporting high quality science and technology news, making science fun for curious people by covering everything from the outer reaches of space to the rapidly changing world of AI to the tiniest microbes in our bodies. Audiences trust our show because they know we're driven by a mission to inform and serve listeners first and foremost with important news they won't get anywhere else. And our sponsors benefit from that halo effect. For more information on becoming a sponsor, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.