How Stockholm Stuck

Summary

Radiolab Episode Summary: "How Stockholm Stuck"

Introduction In the episode "How Stockholm Stuck," hosts Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser delve into the origins, evolution, and lasting impact of the term "Stockholm Syndrome." Through investigative journalism and in-depth interviews, the episode uncovers how a single bank robbery incident in Stockholm gave birth to a widely recognized yet controversial psychological phenomenon. The hosts challenge the validity and application of Stockholm Syndrome, exploring its portrayal in media, its usage in various contexts, and its implications for understanding trauma and abusive relationships.

The 1973 Stockholm Bank Robbery The story begins in August 1973, with a detailed recounting of a bank robbery in downtown Stockholm, Sweden. David King, a writer who lived in Sweden during the 90s, narrates his fascination with the incident involving Jana Eric Olsen. King describes how Olsen, disguised with a wig, makeup, and tinted sunglasses, entered Svaria's Credit Bank armed with a submachine gun. Instead of fleeing with the money, Olsen took four hostages—three women and one man—and demanded substantial ransom, including the release of Clark Olafsson, Sweden's most notorious gangster.

Notable Quote:

David King [04:14]: "He wants 3 million Swedish crowns... and that’s only here for a limited time."

As media coverage intensified, Olsen's demands attracted national attention, with approximately 70% of the Swedish population tuning in. Unexpectedly, the hostages began displaying unusual behaviors, such as returning to the sweatshirt of their captors and expressing reluctance to leave the bank even as negotiations continued.

Coinage and Dissemination of Stockholm Syndrome Following the crisis, the term "Stockholm Syndrome" was attributed to psychiatrist Nils Bjeru, who was brought in as a negotiator. Contrary to popular belief, Bjeru never used the term during the incident. Instead, the nomenclature originated from the New York Police Department (NYPD) in the early 1970s, developed by Officer Harvey Schlossberg in response to similar hostage situations, notably the 1972 Munich Olympics massacre.

Notable Quote:

Harvey Schlossberg [30:07]: "You should not automatically assume they know who the good guys are and who the bad guys are."

The term gained widespread recognition after a misreported interview by famed writer Truman Capote on "The Tonight Show" with Johnny Carson. Capote inaccurately portrayed the Stockholm incident, suggesting that hostages developed romantic attachments to their captors, thereby cementing the syndrome's definition in public consciousness.

Critical Examination of Stockholm Syndrome Producer Sara Kari takes a critical stance on the legitimacy of Stockholm Syndrome. She interviews various individuals, including psychologist Alan Wade, domestic violence advocate Grace Stewart, and former cult member Daniel Barban Lemon, to dissect the concept's validity.

Grace Stewart shares her personal experience with an abusive relationship, initially contemplating the term "Stockholm Syndrome" as a means to understand her conflicting emotions. However, she later identifies more with "trauma bonding," emphasizing the complexity and agency of victims.

Notable Quote:

Grace Stewart [52:07]: "I was like, okay, this feels like what I'm going through. Maybe I'm not insane."

Daniel Barban Lemon recounts his involvement with a cult-like environment, highlighting how situational factors and psychological manipulation—not an inherent syndrome—led to his prolonged association with abusive figures. His story underscores the dangers of oversimplifying complex trauma responses with a single term.

Notable Quote:

Daniel Barban Lemon [60:13]: "Stockholm syndrome, it's one in a long line of really easy answers that we offer to ourselves in order to not have to confront complicated and scary questions."

Modern Implications and Misuse The episode explores how Stockholm Syndrome has been erroneously applied across various scenarios, including domestic abuse, cults, and even in relationships influenced by power dynamics. Jess Hill, author of "See What You Made Me Do," argues that the term often serves to blame victims for their circumstances, overshadowing the perpetrators' manipulative behaviors.

Notable Quote:

Jess Hill [37:37]: "It can act as almost a cover for a much more deeply pernicious idea that actually women stayed with their abusers because they liked it."

Psychologist Alan Wade recounts his meeting with Christine Enmark, the first person labeled with Stockholm Syndrome, revealing that her actions were rational responses to a dire situation rather than symptoms of a syndrome. This encounter challenges the foundational understanding of Stockholm Syndrome and calls for a reevaluation of trauma-related terminology.

Personal Stories and Reflections Grace Stewart and Daniel Barban Lemon provide firsthand accounts of their struggles with abusive relationships and cults, respectively. Their narratives illustrate the nuanced and multifaceted nature of trauma responses, advocating for a more empathetic and comprehensive approach to understanding victim behaviors without reductive labels.

Notable Quote:

Christine Enmark [68:08]: "All the things I did was instinct of Survivor. I wanted to survive. I don't think it's so odd."

Conclusion "How Stockholm Stuck" presents a compelling critique of the term Stockholm Syndrome, revealing its problematic origins and widespread misuse. Through personal stories and expert interviews, the episode advocates for moving beyond simplistic explanations of trauma, emphasizing the importance of understanding the perpetrators' actions and the victims' rational responses within abusive dynamics. The hosts encourage listeners to question established narratives and seek deeper insights into complex psychological phenomena.

Final Reflections: Sara Kari reflects on her own challenges in reconciling the traditional understanding of Stockholm Syndrome with the nuanced realities of trauma, urging a shift towards more accurate and compassionate frameworks for discussing victim experiences.

Notable Quote:

Sara Kari [65:20]: "The Stockholm syndrome protects us from... the fact that you don't know how you would respond until you are put in that situation."

Key Takeaways:

• Stockholm Syndrome originated from a specific bank robbery in Stockholm but was inaccurately popularized by media misrepresentations.
• The term has been misapplied to various contexts, often overlooking the complexity of trauma responses and victim agency.
• Personal narratives reveal that victims' behaviors are rational and adaptive responses to extreme situations rather than symptoms of a syndrome.
• There is a critical need to re-evaluate and refine the language used to describe trauma-related phenomena to avoid victim-blaming and oversimplification.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• David King [04:14]: "He wants 3 million Swedish crowns... and that’s only here for a limited time."
• Harvey Schlossberg [30:07]: "You should not automatically assume they know who the good guys are and who the bad guys are."
• Grace Stewart [52:07]: "I was like, okay, this feels like what I'm going through. Maybe I'm not insane."
• Daniel Barban Lemon [60:13]: "Stockholm syndrome, it's one in a long line of really easy answers that we offer to ourselves in order to not have to confront complicated and scary questions."
• Jess Hill [37:37]: "It can act as almost a cover for a much more deeply pernicious idea that actually women stayed with their abusers because they liked it."
• Christine Enmark [68:08]: "All the things I did was instinct of Survivor. I wanted to survive. I don't think it's so odd."
• Sara Kari [65:20]: "The Stockholm syndrome protects us from... the fact that you don't know how you would respond until you are put in that situation."

Credits and Acknowledgments The episode acknowledges significant contributors, including Alice Edwards for research and translation, Terrence Mickey for archival interviews, and various team members who assisted in production and editing. Special thanks are extended to individuals like Grace Stewart and Daniel Barban Lemon for sharing their personal experiences, providing depth and authenticity to the investigation.

Support and Resources For listeners who may be experiencing domestic violence or trauma, the episode provides resources such as the National Domestic Violence Hotline [phone]-SAFE) and encourages seeking professional help.

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of "How Stockholm Stuck," highlighting the episode's critical exploration of Stockholm Syndrome, supported by personal stories and expert insights. It provides a coherent narrative for listeners who have not engaged with the episode, offering valuable reflections on the complexities of trauma and the pitfalls of oversimplified psychological labels.

Transcript

[Latif Nasser]

Radiolab is supported by Dell Shop Dell Technologies Cyber Monday event for their lowest prices of the year. The Future is on sale today with limited time deals on select PCs like the XPS 16 that accelerate AI with Intel Core Ultra processors. Cyber Monday is their biggest sale of the year and the best time to upgrade, but it's only here for a limited time. Shop [e-mail] deals that's dell.com deals Radiolab is supported by the Allen Institute. The Allen Institute is a nonprofit bioscience research institution dedicated to understanding the fundamentals of our brains, cells and immune systems. They're undertaking large scale foundational research to answer some of the biggest questions facing life sciences today. And they're sharing their data and tools publicly to accelerate scientific discovery globally. To see how, Visit them at alleninstitute.org Allin Radiolab is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the Name youe Price Tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law, not available in all states. Radiolab is supported by the John Templeton foundation, funding interdisciplinary research and catalyzing conversations designed to inspire awe and wonder, dive deeply into the wonders of the universe. @Templeton.org.

[Sarakari]

Listener Supported WNYC Studios.

[Latif Nasser]

Quick warning. This episode has a lot of discussion of trauma and violence, including sexual violence and abusive relationships, and it may not be suitable for all listeners. Oh, wait, you're listening.

[Sarakari]

Okay. All right.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay.

[Sarakari]

All right. You're listening to Radiolab Radio Lab from wnyc. See?

[Latif Nasser]

Hey, I'm Latif Nasser, this is Radiolab. And today it is producer and reporter Sarakari's turn at the campfire to tell a story.

[David King]

All right.

[Sarakari]

Yes, and we are going to kick it off with a story that I heard from a guy named David King.

[David King]

Okay. Yes. Yeah, my name is David King and I'm a writer.

[Sarakari]

And tell me, David, how did you get obsessed with this story? Like, where did you first hear about it?

[David King]

Well, I had the chance to live in Sweden in the 90s, and I used to walk past the square where the robbery took place every day on the way to the library, to the Royal Library for another project. And I always heard of it. It was a big deal in Sweden. I had no idea how good the story was. I mean, it just had everything.

[Sarakari]

So this story, it starts off with a robbery, one that maybe you've even heard of before, but it becomes so Much more than that, because it would end up giving birth to an idea that lives in my head, in your head, in all of our heads that has become kind of hard to shake loose.

[David King]

Oh, yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay.

[Sarakari]

But maybe I should just tell you the basic story first.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay. Yeah. Okay, let's do that. Okay, let's do that.

[Sarakari]

So. August of 1973.

[David King]

Thursday, Aug. 23, 1973, in Stockholm, Sweden.

[Sarakari]

Downtown Stockholm, in this sort of big square in the downtown. It's called Norman Story. It's got restaurants and shops and a big fancy bank, Svaria's Credit Bank.

[David King]

Svaria means Sweden. And on Thursday morning, the bank had just opened. A tall, muscular man enters the bank.

[Sarakari]

He has a ladies wig on, gray zippered sweatshirt.

[David King]

He has some makeup on, this kind of bronzing powder, a pair of tinted sunglasses. And all of a sudden, he rips out a submachine gun, fires in the air, says the party starts down on the floor.

[Sarakari]

But instead of just grabbing the money in the bank and running out the door, this guy, his name is Jana Eric Olsen, he starts taking hostages.

[David King]

They're all young.

[Sarakari]

Ends up with three women and one man.

[David King]

They were all bank employees. And he wants to use them as leverage for bargaining.

[Sarakari]

And this is not something that really ever happened in Sweden at the time.

[David King]

So the police, they arrive on the scene fast.

[Sarakari]

All the police cars kind of pulled.

[David King]

Up right outside the building in the.

[Sarakari]

Square, start stationing snipers on buildings near the bank, on rooftops. And right away alerts are going out on the newswire.

[David King]

The press is there really fast.

[Sarakari]

All the major newspapers and TV and radio stations. So Yana is in the lobby with the hostages and he starts yelling his demands to the police.

[David King]

He wants 3 million Swedish crowns, which is a lot of money.

[Sarakari]

Like today it would be like US$5 million. But the really crazy thing is that then he demands that the police bring.

[David King]

Him Clark Olafsson, Sweden's most notorious gangster. What?

[Sarakari]

So Clark Olafson, 26 years old, he's.

[David King]

Very handsome, very charismatic.

[Sarakari]

He was famous for robbing banks and breaking out of prison. But he was also very charming and sort of a media darling.

[David King]

He had become something of a folk hero to Sweden at the time. And I mean, in fact, I saw this one list of the 10 most influential people in Sweden. Clark was one of them.

[Latif Nasser]

Oh, wow.

[Sarakari]

Yeah. So anyway, Jana, he wants Clark released.

[David King]

From prison and brought to the bank.

[Sarakari]

And incredibly, the cops, they actually released Clark.

[David King]

They actually do it. They actually bring him in.

[Sarakari]

So some hours later, Clark is walking into the bank and at this point the media coverage just completely blows up. It just becomes a huge national news story. All the stations.

[David King]

Broadcasting live, 24 hour.

[Sarakari]

Coverage, live updates are on the clock.

[David King]

At one point you had about 70% of the entire country watching this. Oh wow, 70%. JFK assassination, the moon landing. I mean, this was up there in Sweden.

[Sarakari]

So pretty much the entire country is following all the news of Jana's demands, all the moves the police are making. But pretty quickly everyone's attention turns to the hostages.

[David King]

Yeah, the police start to see the hostages doing unexpected things.

[Sarakari]

By this time, Jana and the hostages are sort of back in the bank vault. And the police have made their way into the lobby of the bank. And at a certain point, Janne lets the hostages go to the bathroom. And hostages goes to the bathroom one by one, unaccompanied. They go down some stairs and around the corner out of sight of Yana and Clark. And then they.

[David King]

And go back to the vault.

[Sarakari]

On the way back, walking right past a bunch of police officers.

[David King]

They could have run, they could have run out, they could have left, but instead they go back to the gunman.

[Latif Nasser]

Huh?

[David King]

Like what? Why in the world, what's happening? What's going on here?

[Sarakari]

And anytime they come out of the vault to talk to the police, their body language is kind of weird.

[David King]

That's right. And Clark comes out with the hostages. He has his arm around them and one of the police chief thinks that they're frowning at him and there's a sense of hostility.

[Sarakari]

But the stories about these hostages really start to blow up when Clark manages to find a phone and brings it back into the vault.

[David King]

Clark is calling his friends in the media, giving interviews during the crises, which are being broadcast on radio.

[Sarakari]

And at some point the TV program Achtuelt manages to get one of the hostages, this young woman named Elizabeth, on the line. So they ask her, you know, how are you doing? How are you holding up? And she says, you know, so we're in good shape.

[David King]

We've been looked after, been real gentlemen toward us.

[Sarakari]

And when the reporter is like, so the four of you are just sitting there hanging out.

[David King]

Elizabeth corrects them, says, no, we're not four, we're six.

[Sarakari]

Then Radio Sweden gets an interview with another one of the hostages, Christine Enmark.

[Latif Nasser]

Christine.

[David King]

Christine comes on the line. We interview her.

[Christine Enmark]

We were not sure what she was going to say.

[Sarakari]

This is Bro Jansen, he was an editor at Radio Sweden at the time. And he told me that Christine basically.

[David King]

Says she's more afraid of the police.

[Sarakari]

Than she is of the robber.

[Christine Enmark]

Or Clark Oluson.

[Sarakari]

The police are the real danger here. That was extremely unexpected. Like they're badmouthing the police, who trusts a robber armed more than she trusts the police. And to the people listening to the interview, it's just weird because she doesn't sound scared or distressed, not depressed or.

[David King]

Anything like that at all. She just sounded angry, actually.

[Sarakari]

And so now everyone at home is glued to the news, trying to figure out what is going on with these women who seem to be siding with the gunmen.

[David King]

Again, if you weren't brought into this story yet, you have another reason to be glued to your television or your radio.

[Sarakari]

And for six days, the hostage crisis carries on like this. There are reports that the hostages are helping Yana and Clark destroy security footage, that they are insisting to the police to let Yana and Clark go and that they want to go with them. And at the end of this whole thing, when the police get them all out of the vault, you can see this on video. They're all saying goodbye to each other, like. Like they're old friends.

[David King]

Yes. So there were hugs and kisses, and.

[Sarakari]

At one point, the police are sort of forcing Clark down, and Christine says, don't hurt him.

[David King]

Don't hurt him.

[Sarakari]

And she turns to Clark and says, we'll see each other again.

[Latif Nasser]

Wow.

[Sarakari]

So in the days that followed, what you had was all these articles and news reports trying to make sense of everything. And you get all these experts saying that what happened here is that these women, Elizabeth and Christine in particular, had formed an attachment to their captors, to Yana and Clark, but potentially even a romantic attachment, basically, that they had developed what we all now know as Stockholm syndrome.

[Latif Nasser]

I got it.

[Sarakari]

Wow.

[Latif Nasser]

So this is the origin of that. This is where Stockholm syndrome comes from.

[Sarakari]

Yes.

[David King]

I went in with the idea. This is how it began. I thought that was going to be the story, but. But I had no idea how much we had wrong with it.

[Sarakari]

According to David King, who ended up writing a whole book about this called Six days in August, when he dug into the details of this case, the whole story sort of got flipped on its head.

[David King]

I mean, from the beginning, in a.

[Sarakari]

Way, because again, in particular, David says, what you see is the police from the very beginning, had no idea what they were doing. This was the first time that something like this had ever happened. This is Lo Erik. He was one of the first police officers on the scene, and he's being translated here by reporter Alice Edwards. We had no experience negotiating these kinds of things, so pretty much right away, what they do is they bring in somebody to be their negotiator.

[David King]

Yes, the psychiatrist, Nils Bayerut.

[Christine Enmark]

Dr. Nils Bierut, the most famous psychiatrist of the time.

[Sarakari]

This is a reporter who was covering the situation at the time.

[Christine Enmark]

My name is OSA Mubar and I'm a writer and freelance journalist.

[Sarakari]

And she told me that Niels Baer.

[Christine Enmark]

He was supposed to be the best negotiator with those people in the bankwat.

[Sarakari]

So he was supposed to be talking to Jana and Clark and then advising the police on what to do.

[Christine Enmark]

But it doesn't always seemed like it was very good advice.

[Sarakari]

For example, when Jana asked for all that money, at first the police seemed to be trying to meet his demands.

[David King]

The police are scrambling to try to.

[Sarakari]

Get this money, and Nils Beirut actually walks in with the money. But it turns out to be sort of obvious that they're traceable bills, which ends up making Yana, who already seems unstable, even more pissed off. And then at the same time, they're escalating the situation by coming down the.

[David King]

Staircase, coming in other entrances, trying to.

[Sarakari]

Sneak into the bank lobby. And we try to see what's happening.

[David King]

Trying to crawl into this scene so they could shoot him.

[Sarakari]

Then Jana shoots at me. Seven bullets like a silhouette around my head. So Jana's really freaking out. Ends up pulling the hostages back deeper into the bank. And when Yana demands that they bring Clark into the bank, well, they agree.

[David King]

Because they're hoping Clark could be a help. I mean, the police were kind of.

[Sarakari]

Desperate, but instead they just handed Yana a charming media savvy accomplice who knew what he was doing. And from there it's just like misstep after misstep. I mean, at one point when Yana and Clark and the hostages are in the vault, the police bring in beers. But then it's so obvious that the beers have been drugged that Yana catches it right away.

[David King]

He takes it and he just shakes it a little bit. There's a fizz. He realizes these bottles have been opened.

[Latif Nasser]

Oh man.

[Sarakari]

Which just made everything worse. Now inside the bank, from the hostages point of view, of course, at first they were terrified of Yana.

[Christine Enmark]

I thought he was crazy. He was so nervous. Was very frightening for me.

[Sarakari]

So this is actually one of the hostages, Christine Enmark, in an interview that she did with podcast host Terrence Mickey. And she told him that while she was scared at first, once Clark showed.

[Christine Enmark]

Up, the situation became totally different. He said, you can't have the girls tied up like this. He was calming everything down. And Janne became very Calm. So I thought, wow, what's happening?

[Sarakari]

So while the police are sneaking in and trying to shoot them or sending in drugged beers, it's starting to feel like Jana and Clark are on their side.

[David King]

You know, the hostages want to call home, they want to call her family.

[Sarakari]

Clark goes out, he finds the phone.

[David King]

Brings it back to the vault. Hostages can call home. Yana and Clark make it happen.

[Sarakari]

Now, at this point, Jana and Clark have demanded a car, and the police got them a car and agreed to let them drive away. And Jana and Clark are nervous. So Elizabeth and Christine volunteer to go with them as collateral. And the cops are saying, no, we can't do that. We can't let you go. But, you know, for Elizabeth and Christine, they just want to get out of the bank. And this is where you get those phone calls, where they're talking to the media, where you. You hear them saying, these guys are being gentlemen and they're more scared of the police than they are of Janna and Clark. Okay, then maybe the craziest thing of all happens. Around this time, Clark has called in a favor from one of his journalist friends and manages to get connected to the Prime Minister of Sweden, Olaf Palme. And so Christine gets on the phone with him.

[David King]

Christine is almost like begging.

[Christine Enmark]

I said, I want to go with these guys.

[David King]

Let us go. We want to go. Olaf Palme, meanwhile, he's been woken up from a nap.

[Sarakari]

He listens to everything Christine has to say, and he's like, no, we can't do that.

[David King]

He says, you know, we have law and order. And Christine is like, you can tell me about law and order some other time.

[Sarakari]

And then according to Christine, the Prime minister says, wouldn't it feel good for.

[Christine Enmark]

You to die on your post?

[Latif Nasser]

What?

[Sarakari]

Yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

Why would he say that? What a tone deaf thing to say.

[David King]

Yeah, the authorities denied that that was said. It's not in the transcript. Right, but part of the transcript is missing.

[Sarakari]

Interesting.

[David King]

I think it happened, and I think I know exactly where happened, because you could read the transcript and all of a sudden you can hear Elizabeth saying something. There are enough dead heroes out there, and it makes absolutely no sense. Yeah, except this little spot, if you put it in, makes sense. If you insert that part where I think it is, then it makes sense. And Christine said it, Jana said it. You know, Clark, they all heard it. Oh, wow. Okay.

[Christine Enmark]

I was 23. I had this very low status at the bank.

[Sarakari]

Of course, it's like one of those moments where just like all the blood drains out of you.

[Latif Nasser]

Right. The person who's supposed to be most in your corner is like, doesn't care whether you live or die.

[Christine Enmark]

When he said that, I thought. You don't understand nothing.

[Sarakari]

Shortly after that, Niels Beirut and the police make a decision that would turn this whole situation into a total nightmare scenario. They sneak up to the door of.

[Christine Enmark]

The vault and I remember hearing the, you know, when the door was shut.

[Sarakari]

They lock Christine and Elizabeth and the other hostages in there with Clark and Jana.

[Latif Nasser]

So now they're trapped in a vault.

[Sarakari]

Yeah.

[Christine Enmark]

If you excuse me. That's when the shit really hit the fan.

[David King]

They've been called him a monster, they call him a madman. And now we're locking the hostages up with him. If you back somebody in a corner, they can become dangerous. And Yanis, he felt like a rat, you know, caught in a trap.

[Latif Nasser]

What was their. They just hadn't thought it out. They just were like, let's contain them. Let's get. Trap them in the vault. Did they have a plan trapping them in the vault?

[Sarakari]

Well, it turns out they're kind. It kind of was a little bit deliberate.

[David King]

Niels Bayerut realizes the more time these people spend together, the more likely we hope that they will start seeing each other as human beings. They will be less as objects, less as leverage points.

[Sarakari]

It's as if his strategy, his actual intentional strategy was some version of like mutual Stockholm syndrome. And he's literally trying to create that attachment. And in some ways he does.

[David King]

The police had managed to bug the vault. I had the access to the conversations that they had. They're talking about, you know, their hopes and their dreams and what's the meaning of life. A little philosophy. What books have you read? And talking like old friends.

[Sarakari]

They start doing things to pass the time, like playing tic tac toe.

[David King]

They're even playing cards, playing poker. And they got a lot of. They got a lot of money to play poker.

[Sarakari]

They're in there now and the vault is locked and so they don't have food.

[David King]

But Jana had saved some pears. And he pulled it out and split it up, divided into six. And one of the hostages, or a couple of them, noticed that he kept the smallest piece for himself.

[Sarakari]

Meanwhile, the police.

[Christine Enmark]

The police started drilling from above.

[Sarakari]

We started to drill holes down into the concrete. This is Jan Olsen. My full name is Erik Olsson.

[Latif Nasser]

Wait, so the bank robber?

[Sarakari]

No, actually Jan was a police officer on the scene who happens to have the same name. Oh yes. It's a little embarrassing, but he told me that the drilling was very loud. The entire building started to rumble. It must have been a horrible noise for the people inside the vault. I remember that there was some kind of scent, like a smell of something grinding hard against.

[Christine Enmark]

The light went out.

[Sarakari]

The vault goes suddenly dark because the police have drilled through some electrical wiring.

[David King]

They're drilling and they're drilling, and Jan is like, don't drill. He has hostages underneath. You know, the falling concrete even strings.

[Sarakari]

Up nooses and puts them around the hostages necks as a threat.

[David King]

But they keep drilling day and night.

[Christine Enmark]

For I don't know how many hours, how many days.

[David King]

So I mean, it was a nightmare, nightmare situation.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeesh.

[Sarakari]

And then comes gas through the holes to your guess. And then something I'll never forget was the screams from below.

[David King]

These violent screams you can hear on the tape. The coughing, the choking look filled over.

[Sarakari]

There of ghost devoured by the gas.

[David King]

Help. Help. And it takes over 30 minutes.

[Sarakari]

30 minutes, yeah. After that, Yana finally surrenders. They all come out of the vault.

[Christine Enmark]

And when I look out, I see these guys looking like Rambo.

[Sarakari]

And the police are right there, no shirt on, because they don't want to get tear gas stuck on their clothes.

[Latif Nasser]

Weird.

[Sarakari]

And you know, this is that moment where after going through all of that together, the hostages are hugging and saying goodbye to Clark and Yana. And so they drag them all out to the front of the bank where they have ambulances lined up with stretchers laid out.

[David King]

And the hostage were ordered to lie down on the stretcher.

[Christine Enmark]

And I refused. I wanted to walk out because I was so angry over the whole situation.

[Sarakari]

At the end of it, all the hostages all get taken to the hospital.

[Christine Enmark]

I read my journals from the hospital and it was very emotional. It shows how scared I was when I came there, how I couldn't sleep. I wanted someone to hold my hand. I was screaming.

[Sarakari]

And a doctor walks into the room.

[David King]

And the first question that Christine received was, are you in love with Clark?

[Latif Nasser]

Oh, weird.

[David King]

And Christine is like just flabbergasted by this. Like what the psychiatrist couldn't believe that she was not. Or another thing, they couldn't believe that Jan and Clark had not made some sort of pass at them.

[Sarakari]

And this story of this attachment, including the baseless rumors of romance, it continues along these lines like long after the fact. Like when the case eventually gets to trial, there's a rumor about the hostages refusing to testify against Yana and Clark.

[David King]

They testified. I read it. I read the entire drug court transcript.

[Sarakari]

There's rumor that they got together and tried to raise money for the defense of either Yana or Clark. That also didn't happen.

[David King]

No, I've read PhD dissertations on this subject and they'll confuse, they confuse Elizabeth and Christine or Bryita. I mean, a lot of basic details get bungled. I don't know, it's just, it's amazing how something gets going and somebody quotes it and doesn't check and it gets quoted again and again and then you get this absurd monster in the end.

[Sarakari]

Now, I should say like during and right after the actual robbery. Psychologists didn't really talk about what happened to these women as some kind of generalized disorder. In fact, no one really even used the phrase Stockholm syndrome. But when we come back, we're going to take a break. When we come back, we're going to trace the path of this idea that we all know from this rumor laden Swedish bank all the way into your head.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay? This year at Radiolab and Terrestrials, we've done a lot of looking up. We named a quasi moon. We're working on naming another that you can go vote on now. We pondered what would happen if our moon disappeared entirely. But as the year ends, we're shifting our gaze to the future. We're looking forward to next year and all the incredible stories we have cooking for you. And I know we've said it before, but it truly is only possible to make these stories with your financial support. So if you've considered joining our membership program, the Lab, now's the time. Because if you join in the next month, you'll get a stunning poster by artist Tara Anand. By joining, you'll get members only content throughout the year and you'll be a part of what makes all of this run. If you're feeling extra generous, we have a new super duper premium tier of the Lab called Whale Sharks. If you become a whale Shark, we'll thank you by reading your name in the episode credits. Later this year also makes for a good holiday gift. Go to Radiolab.org join to check out the poster and sign up for the lab. That's Radiolab.org join and thanks. Radiolab is supported by LinkedIn. As a B2B marketer, you know how noisy the ad space can be. If your message isn't targeted to the right audience, it just disappears into the noise. With LinkedIn ads, you can precisely reach the professionals who are more likely to find your ad relevant. With LinkedIn's targeting capabilities, you can reach them by job title, industry company and more. Stand out with LinkedIn ads and start converting your B2B audience into high quality leads. Today with LinkedIn ads, you'll have direct access to and be able to build relationships with a billion members, 130 million decision makers and 10 million C level executives. Plus, you'll work with a partner who respects the B2B world you operate in. 79% of B2B content marketers said LinkedIn produces the best results for paid media. Start converting your B2B audience into high quality leads today. They'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com Radiolab to claim your credit. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn the Place to be to be Radiolab is sponsored by BetterHelp. The holidays are a really stressful time. I am not a fan of them. Christmas.

[Sarakari]

Especially not a fan.

[Latif Nasser]

But whether you are or you aren't, BetterHelp is here to help. I have long believed that taking care of your mental health is just as important as your physical health, and therapy is a great way to do that. It can teach you helpful skills, help you set boundaries, or just, you know, give you the support you need. Plus, BetterHelp makes it super easy. It's all online on your schedule. You go fill out a quick questionnaire, get matched with a licensed therapist and you can switch therapists at no extra charge. Find comfort Whether you love or hate the holidays with BetterHelp, visit betterhelp.com Radiolab today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H E L P.com Radiolab Radiolab is supported by Made In Cookware. Here at Radiolab we like to dig deep into why and how things are done and the science behind it all. When it comes to important gastronomy related questions like how do you actually clean a stainless steel pan? And what's the difference between honing and sharpening my knives? Made in Cookware has done some deep diving of their own and has developed the products to prove it. Made in sold their first stainless clad frying pan in 2017, almost a century after their fourth generation kitchen supply family business opened their doors in 1929. Their products are used in restaurants and homes around the world and best of all, Made in is sold online. Cook like a pro with Made in save up to 30% from now until December 8th. Visit madeincookware.com that's M A D E I N Cookware Hey I'm Latif Nasser, this is Radiolab. We are back with Sara Kari.

[Sarakari]

Hello.

[Latif Nasser]

Talking about Stockholm Syndrome or the thing.

[Sarakari]

That as I said right before break in the month after the hostage crisis Wasn't yet even called Stockholm Syndrome.

[David King]

Niels Bayerut is credited with that.

[Sarakari]

Coining the term, you mean.

[David King]

Yes, but I read all his reports to the police, listened to the interviews, and he doesn't use the phrase.

[Sarakari]

According to David King, the idea of this, like, being a syndrome actually comes from.

[David King]

From the New York police department.

[Sarakari]

The NYPD.

[Latif Nasser]

What?

[Sarakari]

Yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

Why?

[Sarakari]

So in the early 1970s, hostage negotiations were a relatively new thing.

[Harvey Schlossberg]

No police department anywhere had any kind of systematic approach for what to do. And it was, you know, let's see if we can talk, or the hell with going in.

[Sarakari]

This is Ed Conlon.

[Harvey Schlossberg]

My name is Edward Conlon, and I was a detective with the nypd, and I'm also a writer.

[Sarakari]

And he's written a lot about the moment when hostage negotiation as a practice emerged.

[Harvey Schlossberg]

And one of the things that interests me about it is that it was created in response to the 1972 Munich Olympics, when Israeli athletes were taken hostage and killed. And we had a chief here who said, do we have a plan? What do we do if that something like that happened in New York City? The answer was no. And he said, let's come up with something.

[Sarakari]

And the guy who was tasked with coming up with something was a police officer named Harvey Schlossberg. Harvey Schlossberg, a former detective with a degree in psychology.

[Harvey Schlossberg]

If there was a museum of New York Jewish accents, that's all it is, Harvey's would be in it. Yeah, it's Brooklyn, 1950.

[Sarakari]

You can say a lot of things wrong.

[Latif Nasser]

It doesn't really matter.

[Harvey Schlossberg]

He's small, kind of a trim guy. He's got the 70s, sideburns, he smokes a pipe. He's kind of classic New York intellectual type.

[Sarakari]

And so all through the summer of 1973, Harvey's trying to figure out what they should do, what they need to think about, and how did they put together a plan.

[Harvey Schlossberg]

And In August of 1973, you have the bank robbery in Sweden.

[Sarakari]

Harvey hears about it. He reads up on the case, and shortly after, Stockholm syndrome.

[Christine Enmark]

I'm not going to go through the.

[Sarakari]

Whole Stockholm syndrome at this point, there's footage of him using the phrase Stockholm syndrome with a group of New York City police officers. At this point, let me suffice to say the Stockholm syndrome simply means the.

[Latif Nasser]

Forming of a relationship.

[Sarakari]

Of course, the more stress in the situation, the quicker the relationship, and the more intense it's going to be. As far as David King can tell, Harvey is the first person to coin the term.

[David King]

Yes.

[Latif Nasser]

Oh, wow. So this is the guy Mr. Mr. Stockholm Syndrome himself.

[Sarakari]

Yeah.

[David King]

And I contacted him.

[Sarakari]

Oh, did you?

[David King]

Just to get it confirmed, he said, yep.

[Latif Nasser]

Huh.

[Sarakari]

And specifically what he would tell police officers in these trainings is you should.

[Christine Enmark]

Not trust the hostage. The hostage will side with the criminal.

[Harvey Schlossberg]

Don't automatically assume they know who the good guys are and who the bad guys are.

[Sarakari]

You cannot share intelligence with the hostage. The hostage will tell the criminal everything you tell him.

[Latif Nasser]

Wow, that's like. It's not a one off thing, it's like a. Just presume that's true.

[Sarakari]

Yeah, Right. And you know, after training, you know, the New York City police officers, Harvey and his team, they train the FBI and then they start traveling all over the place, training other police departments.

[Harvey Schlossberg]

Every police agency in the Western hemisphere and some of the Eastern. I mean, they train the world.

[Sarakari]

I mean, they trained 7,000 officers across 1,500 different police departments.

[Latif Nasser]

Wow. It's so interesting that so much of this is a. It's like a cop diagnosis. Right? It's like, it's like law enforcement and I don't know, the psychologists working with them as the ones defining what this is.

[Sarakari]

Yeah, totally. But then in 1974, it leapt out of the police training handbook and into the public consciousness. There's been a big kidnapping on the West Coast. The victim is Patricia Hearst, thanks to the kidnapping of Patty Hearst.

[Latif Nasser]

Oh, the granddaughter of the legendary William Randolph Hearst.

[Sarakari]

So February of 1974, just six months after Stockholm, Patty Hearst, 19 year old heiress to the Hearst family fortune, is kidnapped by this group called the Symbionese Liberation Army. Dragged, screaming half naked from her Berkeley apartment. She's kept in a closet, beaten and raped. Then 71 days after the kidnapping, a bank robbery by the SLA. Two months later, the SLA is robbing a bank in San Francisco. And on the security footage from the bank, you can see Patricia Hearst in.

[Latif Nasser]

The middle of it all.

[Sarakari]

The girl in the wig with the automatic rifle was Patricia Hearst. She appeared to be helping them rob the bank. Then she actually gave an interview saying that she joined them. I've been given the choice of one, being released in a safe area or two, joining the forces of the Symbionese Liberation army and fighting for my freedom and the freedom of all oppressed people. I have chosen to stay and fight. And sort of like with the Stockholm situation, when people heard this interview, they just thought she didn't sound the way that someone who's been kidnapped and beaten should sound.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah.

[Sarakari]

There's no hint of coercion or anything. Yeah. And so some people Started to think maybe she's brainwashed. Other people to this day think that she was ideologically aligned with the sla. And as the entire nation was trying to make sense of all this in June of 1974. Well, I have to give Truman equal times. Well, I can confuse Truman Capote goes on the Tonight show with Johnny Carson.

[David King]

Somerset Maugham once referred to him as.

[Sarakari]

The hope of modern literature. Super famous writer, like wrote Breakfast at Tiffany's and In Cold Blood. Fiction, nonfiction writer.

[Christine Enmark]

Probably one of our times. Would you welcome Mr. Truman Capote?

[Sarakari]

He sits down with Johnny Carson and he explains, well, you know what I think is happening with Patty Hearst is.

[Christine Enmark]

That thing called the Stockholm syndrome. You know the Stockholm syndrome? No, I don't. A couple of years back.

[Sarakari]

So he tells the whole original Stockholm story.

[Christine Enmark]

And they were having continuous sort of.

[Sarakari]

Affairs, forced in the beginning, false rumors.

[Christine Enmark]

And all these girls refused to testify against them.

[Sarakari]

And. And one of them is now engaged.

[Christine Enmark]

To this convict and is going to marry him. On his release.

[Sarakari]

That statement hits the news wires and this totally bogus version of the Stockholm story just goes viral.

[Daniel Barban Lemon]

One of the women is waiting for.

[David King]

The robber to get out of jail to marry him. What?

[Sarakari]

One of the females went on to.

[Christine Enmark]

Marry one of the captors.

[Sarakari]

Suddenly everybody. Stockholm syndrome. And the mind control is talking about Stockholm syndrome.

[David King]

The individual is reduced to total helplessness.

[Sarakari]

And running with this idea that people, especially women in these sort of hostage or kidnapping situations, become attached, even romantically, to their captors. There may be a similarity in the Iranian hostage situation and what you refer to as the Stockholm syndrome. And then through the 80s and into.

[Latif Nasser]

The 90s, it's a very primitive, almost childlike attachment that develops.

[Sarakari]

People try using it to explain why some kidnapped kids seemingly never try to escape. For 18 years, J.C. dugard was held by a convicted sex offender. She developed a bond with her abductor.

[Jess Hill]

Elizabeth Smart, kidnapped from her Utah bedroom in 2002.

[Sarakari]

Never tried to run either. And pretty soon it's getting used to explain cult members, sex workers, victims of sex trafficking, victims of child abuse.

[Latif Nasser]

Right. It's the. When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail kind of thing.

[Sarakari]

Yeah, totally. I mean, it's being used to explain things that are not at all like hostage situations. Most prominently, is it reasonable to take.

[Latif Nasser]

What we've learned about Stockholm syndrome, relate it to kind of domestic abuse?

[Sarakari]

Domestic abuse. How do you deal psychologically with a woman who feels like the Stockholm Syndrome tied inextricably to the batterer?

[Jess Hill]

So I think that the media really hooked onto this concept because it was mysterious. You know, how do these victims get changed in this situation? Well, here's a really simple explanation.

[Sarakari]

This is journalist Jess Hill.

[Jess Hill]

I'm the author of See what yout Made Me Do.

[Sarakari]

And Jess says when Stockholm syndrome is applied to women who are caught in an abusive relationship, it can act as almost a cover for a much more.

[Jess Hill]

Deeply pernicious idea that actually women, they stayed with their abusers because they liked it.

[Sarakari]

It becomes clear how it draws on a long history of psychological theories that try to explain, or maybe even explain away those relationships, going all the way back to the early 1900s from Sigmund.

[Jess Hill]

Freud, who claimed to have discovered that there are these essential forces that drive human behaviour. And according to Freud, all women who were essentially lesser for lacking a penis and envied men for having penises were innately masochistic and unconsciously sought to be punished. So in the 1940s and 50s when you had, you know, Freudian theories are really at their peak, social workers who were working with what we term battered women, they, they believed that women would actually look for men who would abuse them.

[Sarakari]

Then Jess says, when you get to the 1970s, you start to have a supposedly more modern scientific understand drawing on physiological science about fight or flight and learned helplessness to say that actually women stay in abusive relationships because they are rendered unable to act.

[Jess Hill]

Now, of course it's an improvement on masochism where you'd actually feel some pity for the victim instead of just thinking that they're some masochistic harpy. But it still lays the blame on the victim for her abuse. It's your passivity that drove the perpetrator to actually abuse you in the first place.

[Sarakari]

And so Stockholm syndrome comes around and I think part of why it's so resonant is it ties all of those ideas into a super neat little package. Right. Like you have elements of like she's into it and also she's helpless. And those ideas are kind of just packaged together.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah, it's a cocktail. It's a cocktail of those other ideas.

[Sarakari]

Yeah. That have been floating around in the culture and these days it's still thrown around by the media in this kind of willy nilly way. It comes up in pop culture.

[Latif Nasser]

Is it in the dsm?

[Sarakari]

No, actually it's not and it never has been. And even though it's not in the dsm, you know, in the academic world, it still comes up. You'll see like a paper here or there that mentions it or, you know, a psychologist going on TV that talks about it and it's still sort of around.

[Alan Wade]

Oh, yeah. In curriculum it comes up. If you begin to work with law enforcement, it can come up periodically in that arena. It's just kind of part of the air that you breathe in a certain kind of way.

[Sarakari]

So this is Alan Wade. He's been a Therapist for over 35.

[Alan Wade]

Years, specializing in cases of interpersonal violence.

[Sarakari]

And Alan told me that about eight years ago, he was working for a while in Sweden.

[Alan Wade]

Out of the blue, one of my close colleagues said, would you like to meet the Stockholm syndrome lady, meaning Christine Enmark, the woman who said to have Stockholm syndrome. And I thought about it for a minute. I said, well, talking to the first person ever said to have Stockholm syndrome is a bit of a rare opportunity. So I said, okay, sure. We arranged to meet in a Wayne's coffee shop in the central part of Stockholm. So I'm sitting, having a cup of coffee, and Christine, who I didn't know was Christine but suspected it might be, tapped me on the arm.

[Sarakari]

And what does she look like?

[Alan Wade]

Oh, she has blonde hair. She's very well attired. Not fancy, but pleasant.

[Sarakari]

So they sat down and started talking. And Alan says that right away, Christine.

[Alan Wade]

She said, are you interested in Stockholm syndrome? And I said, well, honestly, I'm a little bit unsure about the idea. And she looked at me with a big smile and said, me too.

[Sarakari]

So Alan and Christine ended up talking for the next several hours.

[Alan Wade]

One of the things I realized quickly is that none of the world experts on Stockholm syndrome had ever talked with Christine. People had been traveling the globe talking about Stockholm syndrome as experts, but none.

[Sarakari]

Of them apparently had ever asked her about her experience in the bank, about.

[Alan Wade]

The events as they unfolded.

[Sarakari]

So Alan just started talking to her about it.

[Alan Wade]

Could I ask you this? Could I ask you that?

[Sarakari]

And he says that there were these moments in the conversation where it seemed like Christine was still trying to make sense of her own behavior.

[Alan Wade]

She said to me, why did I volunteer to be the hostage that went with Jana Olsson to leave the bank? Why did I volunteer? So I asked for more detail about context. And I learned that there were three other hostages.

[Sarakari]

Christine talked about these other hostages, Sven and Elisabeth and Briitta.

[Alan Wade]

And when she said Birgitta's name, she began to tear up a little bit. And she told me overhearing a phone call that Birgitta had from the bank vault with her husband and said something like, yes, dear, I'm a hostage in the bank and I won't be home. For dinner, you're going to have to pick up the girls from school and they'll be hungry. I left some fish at the back of the fridge, et cetera. So at that moment, I looked at Christine and I said, were you protecting those little girls by protecting their mother? And she looked at me with a very firm expression and said, you know, I had a purpose. So at that moment, at that moment, the framework of so called Stockholm syndrome really fell apart like a house of cards.

[Sarakari]

So for Allen, clearly Christine wasn't helpless or weirdly under the sway of these bad men. She didn't have a syndrome. She was acting in a way that was rational, that made sense given the situation that she was in.

[Latif Nasser]

So it's like even patient zero didn't have the thing. Yeah, but, so where, but now where does that leave you? Like, what do you make of this? Like, was that just all total BS and his case closed?

[Sarakari]

I mean, obviously it's as you said, Christine didn't have Stockholm syndrome. It doesn't apply to her. And you can trace, as we have this whole journey of how this thing that was started out as a lie becomes warped into this thing that we all know. And so I guess for a lot of the reporting, I've kind of been operating on that assumption. This is a lie, there's nothing here. But as I went through the reporting, I came across accounts of people that, you know, felt something for their captors, felt attached to their captors. I literally argued with psychologists who were saying, this is real. And my patients come into my office experiencing feelings for people that have hurt them. And I was like, no, you're wrong, this is a lie. And I haven't known what to do with it.

[Latif Nasser]

I don't know, I feel like I've even seen this in my own life. Like there are people you see, and not just women, men too, who are in situations of domestic violence, or there are people who are in these very complicated, toxic relationships and they can't get out. Like, there is a thing to be explained.

[Sarakari]

I mean, yeah, true. And even when, you know, go online and go, go poking around in places like Reddit or TikTok, we need to talk about Stockholm syndrome because right away very real trauma response that can happen called Stockholm syndrome. You can see that like for a lot of people, Stockholm syndrome in relationships, you start to sympathize with your abuse. This thing that still kind of working through it started out as a lie. Feels like, I feel like I'm like, I have Stockholm syndrome or something. Their truth, the they feel seen in some way by Stockholm Syndrome, they're self diagnosing with it. And you know under every one of these TikToks there's comments and comments of people being like yes, that is me.

[Latif Nasser]

Not in an ironic like a silly way like in a real like this is I have this.

[Sarakari]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And honestly I just felt stuck. But after the break I will tell you about how I got unstuck.

[Latif Nasser]

Radiolab is supported by LinkedIn as a B2B marketer, you know how noisy the ad space can be if your message isn't targeted to the right audience, it just disappears into the noise. With LinkedIn ads, you can precisely reach the professionals who are more likely to find your ad relevant. With LinkedIn's targeting capabilities you can reach them by job title, industry, company and more. Stand out with LinkedIn Ads and start converting your B2B audience into high quality leads today. With LinkedIn Ads, you'll have direct access to and be able to build relationships with a billion members, 130 million decision makers and 10 million C level executives. Plus you'll work with with a partner who respects the B2B world you operate in. 79% of B2B content marketers said LinkedIn produces the best results for paid media. Start converting your B2B audience into high quality leads today. They'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com Radiolab to claim your credit. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn the Place to be to be Radiolab is supported by Mint Mobile. We all love saving a few bucks, but it has to be easy. No hoops, no bs. Mint Mobile makes it easy to get unlimited talk, text and Data plans for $15 a month when you purchase a three month plan. To get this new customer offer, go to mint mobile.com Radiolab that's mint mobile.com Radiolab $45 upfront payment required equivalent to $15 a month for first three month plan only. Speed slower above 40 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Additional taxes, fees and restrictions apply. See Mint Mobile for details. Radiolab is supported by Lumen, the world's first handheld metabolic coach that measures your metabolism through your breath and on the app it lets you know if you're burning fat or carbs and gives you tailored guidance to improve your nutrition, workouts, sleep and even stress management. All you have to do is breathe into your Lumen first thing in the morning and you'll know what's going on with your metabolism, whether you're burning mostly fats or carbs Then Lumen gives you a personalized nutrition plan for that day based on your measurements. You can also breathe into it before or after workouts or meals so you know exactly what's going on in your body in real time. And Lumen will give you tips to keep you on top of your health game. So if you want to stay on track with your health this holiday season, go to Lumen Me radiolab to get 15% off your lumen that is L U M E N me for 15% off your purchase. Radiolab is supported by Made In Cookware. Here at Radiolab we like to dig deep into why and how things are done and the science behind it all. When it comes to important gastronomy related questions like how do you actually clean a stainless steel pan? And what's the difference between honing and sharpening my knives? Made In Cookware has done some deep diving of their own and has developed the products to prove it. Made in sold their first stainless clad frying pan in 2017, almost a century after their fourth generation kitchen supply family business opened their doors in 1929. Their products are used in restaurants and homes around the world. And best of all, Made in is sold online. Cook like a pro with Made in save up to 30% from now until December 8th. Visit madeincookware.com that's M A D E I N Cookware. Just a reminder, this episode contains detailed discussions of trauma and violence, including sexual violence and abusive relationships. I'm Latif, this is Radiolab. We are back with reporter producer Sara Khari. Yep. And before the break you were telling me how stuck you felt and how you didn't even, you weren't even now sure what to think of Stockholm syndrome.

[Sarakari]

Right. So I did really want to talk to people that have actually been through something like this and are trying to reckon with their own experience.

[Latif Nasser]

How did they make sense of it themselves?

[Sarakari]

Yeah, like so if there were to.

[Grace Stewart]

Be a mess up, can I just pause for a second, like recollect myself?

[Sarakari]

Oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I ended up talking to a couple different people with very different experiences. But I want to start us off with this woman.

[Grace Stewart]

Absolutely.

[Sarakari]

Grace Stewart.

[Grace Stewart]

So I'm originally from the greater Philadelphia area and I now do a lot of domestic violence advocacy through social media.

[Sarakari]

I actually found her on TikTok, but she also has a podcast called why she Stayed and she does one on one coaching for people who are in abusive relationships.

[Grace Stewart]

And I came into this space just through my own lived experience.

[Sarakari]

Grace herself was in an abusive relationship for several years.

[Grace Stewart]

There was a lot of emotional abuse, sexual abuse. There's so much.

[Sarakari]

And one of the things that I noticed in Grace's tiktoks about the relationship, which is honestly what made me want to talk to her, is how, despite all that, when she was in the relationship, she would have a lot of conflicting feelings about walking away.

[Grace Stewart]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Sarakari]

I think I'm curious if. And so I asked her, you know, had she ever come across Stockholm syndrome, and what did she think of it as a label or an explanation for her experience?

[Grace Stewart]

So, yeah, it's an interesting question.

[Sarakari]

And she told me that she did actually contemplate the term at one point in her relationship.

[Grace Stewart]

At the time, so many people just definitely wanted me to get out of it and were putting a lot of pressure on me to not marry him. Like, please just don't do it. But I was still very bonded to him. And I remember sitting in my recliner in my living room, just very disheveled. I hadn't eaten that day. I was just so sick with, like, anxiousness.

[Sarakari]

So sitting there on her couch, Grace says she opened up her computer, and.

[Grace Stewart]

That'S when I searched Stockholm syndrome.

[Sarakari]

She says that when she read up on it, she felt relief.

[Grace Stewart]

I was like, okay, this feels like what I'm going through. Maybe I'm not insane. And I think having that name for your experience is extremely important in getting.

[Sarakari]

Free, because she says it helped her start to see where her resistance to leaving and that feeling of being bonded to her ex was coming from.

[Grace Stewart]

The best way I can describe it is many victims have amazing instincts, and they are really intuitive. But people don't realize how much of domestic abuse is about confusion.

[Sarakari]

For Grace, it was.

[Grace Stewart]

I think I got it all wrong.

[Sarakari]

Confusion about what was even happening.

[Grace Stewart]

What if I overreacted and made something out of nothing?

[Sarakari]

Whether to judge her ex by his good days or his bad days.

[Grace Stewart]

Is he the good guy or is he the bad guy? Is he kind or is he cruel?

[Sarakari]

Or if maybe, am I a perpetrator?

[Grace Stewart]

Am I a narcissist?

[Sarakari]

There was something wrong with her.

[Grace Stewart]

Let me just change this one thing about myself.

[Sarakari]

Grace says at the time, she wasn't even sure what to. To call this thing that was happening to her.

[Grace Stewart]

I felt like I had nothing to point to, nothing concrete to say. This is what's happening to me. It's the thick confusion that kept me trapped.

[Sarakari]

And so when she ran into the idea of Stockholm, it was like, look, this is what's happening here.

[Grace Stewart]

And that was super Allowed me to take a deep breath. So if someone resonates with the term Stockholm at some point in their journey and it brings them clarity, then okay, it's not the term I would select as the best one. I related more to trauma bonding, which is the term that I find more appropriate for survivors. But it's a starting point.

[Sarakari]

Thinking back to when I was stuck about whether Stockholm syndrome was true or false or what. I think what I heard from Grace is that there is a grain of truth here that matches her experience, which.

[Grace Stewart]

Is that as kind and caring, even.

[Sarakari]

Though you can feel care or loyalty or empathy or affection for someone who's treating you badly.

[Grace Stewart]

But I remember the turning point.

[Sarakari]

She also told me that the real turning point for her I read the book called why, was when she figured out how to stop troubleshooting her own actions and instead put the microscope on.

[Grace Stewart]

What the abuser is doing and kind of unravel their tactics.

[Latif Nasser]

What's he doing to make you stay?

[Sarakari]

What's he doing?

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah.

[Sarakari]

Yeah. And that's when she started noticing, they'll.

[Grace Stewart]

Inflict pain, then they'll rescue all of her ex's tactics. Like, he wasn't always telling me I couldn't go see friends or I couldn't see my family. He would just make those things very.

[Sarakari]

Difficult for me, subtly isolating her.

[Grace Stewart]

Or he used to flip cause and effect so much, he would say, I.

[Sarakari]

Got him like this, Shifting blame onto.

[Grace Stewart]

Her or even, oh, no, that didn't happen like that. You're crazy.

[Sarakari]

Plain old gaslighting.

[Grace Stewart]

It was about power and control.

[Sarakari]

And Grace says that when she was able to identify what her ex was doing and how she was responding to.

[Grace Stewart]

It, for me, that was what opened my eyes. It really sealed the deal for me. It really did.

[Jess Hill]

So it's really important to know that. Coercive control.

[Sarakari]

What's interesting is that when I was talking to Jess Hill, she told me that. But this shift to looking at the perpetrator, looking at the abuser, it's not just helpful for victim survivors like Grace. It's also helpful for people looking at these kinds of situations from the outside.

[Jess Hill]

When you start to see what the perpetrator does, the behavior of the victim survivor starts to make much more sense.

[Sarakari]

And not just that it means that you can do away with terms like Stockholm syndrome and try to talk about and look at what's going on without the victim blaming or scrutiny. And like, for me to get to this point in the reporting, it was really exciting because it's like, okay, here's A way to talk about things that are happening, things that are hard to talk about in a way that doesn't do more harm, you know? But I swear to God, in the middle of all this, I sat down one evening and I was watching this sort of true crime documentary about the cult at Sarah Lawrence College. And I'm watching the people that are joining this cult. And it was all just so strange and foreign to me that I found myself having this knee jerk reaction of asking these questions, like, why did they do that? Like, why didn't they just leave? Like, why did they do X or Y or Z? You know, strange thing. And so, of course, as I'm doing this, I'm like, oh, my God, I am still doing the same things, like, all of those same impulses to scrutinize the victim. And it's like it just, like, immediately just slotted right back into my brain. And, like, literally in the midst of all this reporting. So that felt very uncomfortable. And so I'm sitting there and I'm thinking all this stuff, and I'm like, honestly, maybe what I need to do is call one of these people.

[Daniel Barban Lemon]

I'm gonna take a sip of this water.

[Sarakari]

Yeah, do it.

[Daniel Barban Lemon]

And get used to hearing every detail in such high fidelity.

[Sarakari]

And so I did.

[Daniel Barban Lemon]

Okay. My name is Daniel Barban Lemon. I live in Los angeles, and I'm 33.

[Sarakari]

I kind of want to get a little bit into your backstory. And I think that this is the conversation that finally got me where I wanted to be. Not just like, intellectually, but also emotionally. I recognize that. I guess what I'm about to ask is a really big question, but you already know what I'm gonna ask, like, what happened? Yeah, okay.

[Daniel Barban Lemon]

I went to Sarah Lawrence College. One of my roommate's dads, Larry Ray, got out of prison and needed a place to crash, and we said yes. And he started a sort of self improvement routine with me and my roommates, which seemed fairly innocuous at first. And the next summer, he got an apartment in Manhattan and offered me a couch to crash on while I was working in the city. And. And I took him up on it. And all of that devolved over time into abuse, sexual abuse, psychological physical abuse, coercion, and ultimately what you would call a cult. And that averaged around maybe eight people in this apartment in Manhattan. I was there for about two years altogether, and then I left. And I spent the next five or so years processing, not believing what had happened, being totally shell shocked.

[Sarakari]

And so about six years after Daniel left the cult News about it broke this is in 2019. It became a big story about the Sarah Lawrence cult. And Daniel has since been interviewed about it. And I mentioned there was a whole documentary about it, but for those six years, he said he didn't talk to anybody about it at all.

[Daniel Barban Lemon]

Yeah, I think just. I couldn't really face what had actually happened.

[Sarakari]

Right. And I mean, like, how do you. It just was such a crazy thing to say out loud.

[Daniel Barban Lemon]

It's like you feel like you're constantly trying to prove it both to yourself and to someone, even a sympathetic listener. It's like you're telling them you saw an alien.

[Sarakari]

Totally.

[Daniel Barban Lemon]

It's really. It takes a lot of self confidence that I don't really like, come with, out of the box.

[Sarakari]

No, I get that.

[Daniel Barban Lemon]

I wish there was one word I could say and it would be fully understood. But counterintuitively, actually leaving the situation required letting go of a need for an explanation. I had to accept that I wasn't going to know why this had happened, how I could justify it to myself or others. I just needed to listen to my body and leave or else I felt like I was gonna die. But, you know, I wish that I could just. I wish that I didn't feel like any of it was my fault. You know, everybody who hears a story of a man beating and sexually abusing a bunch of 18 to 20 year olds in an apartment in New York think to themselves, I would have walked out the door.

[Sarakari]

I mean, I felt myself doing this when I watched the documentary, like knowing everything I know and working on this. I was still just like searching for something like, what was it about these people? You know, and like catching myself asking that question.

[Daniel Barban Lemon]

Yeah, I mean, it's fair. That has been hard for me to navigate too. There were people who were living in that same house where he was sleeping on the couch and didn't get pulled into the cult. But, you know, speaking for myself, I was 18, going to college for the first time, had not reckoned with my neglectful upbringing and my mom's chronic illness and my own struggles with sexuality and. And just trying to figure everything out and having no guidance. And that's a great time for somebody who presents as a kind of father figure to show up and offer some relief.

[Sarakari]

On the other hand, Daniel says, I mean, he knows that his vulnerabilities don't fully explain what happened either. Like, we all have vulnerabilities.

[Latif Nasser]

We all have vulnerabilities.

[David King]

We have.

[Sarakari]

A lot of people have vulnerabilities and trauma and all of these things. And it just seems you could either scrutinize the victim survivor more and more, or you could look at the pernicious tactics of the perpetrator. But Daniel feels like both of those things can leave people with the same picture of the person who is going through the experience.

[Daniel Barban Lemon]

What people imagine is that you sort of become like a mannequin and someone's pulling the strings, as if you're being magically controlled. And I think that it's so much simpler than that. I did things that I might not otherwise do because I was in a situation where that seemed like the most sensible option according to the information I had, you know, and I was scared. Like, when I lived with Larry, I remember looking down at my feet and seeing, like, visible dirt spots because it had been so long since I'd been allowed to shower. And now, of course, that sounds so out of control, but you just kind of proceed trying to avoid pain, you know, and then you add. On top of that, all of my friends were there, and I watched them do the same things. We didn't have opportunities for, like, cross talk or reality checking. It's like, you know, him slicing a grape vertically versus horizontally and having me taste it and say that it tasted different sliced horizontally or vertically. And I agreed. You know, even now, I'm like. I guess the oxidization, there's like, more surface area, you know, so it's.

[Sarakari]

Yeah, yeah.

[Daniel Barban Lemon]

And.

[Sarakari]

And on top of all of that, Daniel was telling me about how at the time, he was basically broke in New York City, and he'd find himself thinking that maybe things would actually be even worse if he left.

[Daniel Barban Lemon]

You know, so it's just like. Like the known evil versus the unknown evil and sunk cost. And it's all the same factors. The brain hasn't magically changed. You know, you're just in a different situation, which I. And I know I'm not ignoring that the situation is crazy and really, really bad, but you still just. You only have the same tools and are bringing them to bear. And, you know, the way you make decisions is just with the information you have. That's a way of answering that question, why didn't you leave? And it would be much easier if the answer was just, we developed Stockholm syndrome.

[Sarakari]

Right. I mean, speaking of Stockholm syndrome, I guess I am curious what you think of it or how you feel about it.

[Daniel Barban Lemon]

I think that Stockholm syndrome, it's one in a long line of really easy answers that we offer to ourselves in order to not have to confront complicated and scary questions.

[Sarakari]

Questions like, you know, is it possible that something like this could happen to me? Like, because if you have those vulnerabilities and this kind of person walks into your life right then it's like really hard to say what you would do. I think that's right. That's the scariest piece of it. And I think that's what an idea like Stockholm protects us from.

[Jess Hill]

It satisfies our need to be like, well, I would never respond like that. And the fact is you don't know how you would respond until you are put in that situation. And I can tell you, victim survivors, they never thought they'd respond like that either. And now they're on the other side of that experience and they realise things that they never thought they would do, they did under those conditions. Because it's a fundamentally human response.

[Daniel Barban Lemon]

I actually think that trauma is unfortunately one of the more normal experiences you can have. Yes, the facts of what occurred are extreme, but the effects are still the same. You know, fear and grief and confusion and isolation. But when people hear Stockholm Syndrome, it's just like, it's such a throwaway term. And I think we should be suspicious of any concept which doesn't invite further curiosity. I mean, people, if it is a thought terminating answer and we just say, oh, well, it was Stockholm Syndrome, anything that ends our curiosity I think is really bad.

[Latif Nasser]

I feel that, I feel that hard, especially as a journalist, but also if you're, you know, a psychologist or also if you're a friend or also if you're a, you know, just someone who watches a lot of cult documentaries like, like I, I do think that you gotta, you have to want to ask more questions.

[Daniel Barban Lemon]

Yeah, right. And I think that if the questions that we were asked was less like, explain to me why you didn't leave and was more like, how did you leave? I'm so glad that you got out. Can you help us understand how you did it?

[Sarakari]

And honestly, at the end of all of this, just to go back to the beginning for a sec, I can't help but think about Christine Enmark, you know, the patient zero of Stockholm syndrome, and all of the questions that, that for 40 years nobody asked her.

[Christine Enmark]

I always felt that I did something wrong. I said wrong things. I said that I was afraid of the police, I wanted to get out, I wanted to go with them. And after this trauma, all the attention has been focused on this. Instead of looking at what did Janet do, what did Clark do, what did the police do, what did the society do? You said they're not really healthy. They got into something wrong, you know, with syndrome. So I have this 40 years of the feeling of doing something wrong. All the things that I did was instinct of Survivor. I wanted to survive. I don't think it's so odd.

[Latif Nasser]

Thank you for that whole journey, Sara.

[Sarakari]

Thank, thank you.

[Latif Nasser]

And thank you all for listening. If you or someone you care about is experiencing domestic violence, remember you are not alone. Help is available in the United States. You can reach out to the National Domestic violence hotline at 1-800-799-SAFE 1-800-799-7233 or visit their website at thehotline.org they offer confidential support 247, 365. Your safety and well being matter and there are people who care and want to help. Sara, do you want to do the special? Thanks.

[Sarakari]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I should say this episode would not have been possible without Alice Edwards in particular. She contributed research, reporting, translation. Also big, big thanks to Terrence Mickey for letting us use the tape of his conversation with Christine Enmark. To Mimi Wilcox for help with archival audio, check out her documentary Bad Hostage. Very similar vibes to this episode. And thanks also to Frank Akberg, David Mantell, Ruth Raimundo Mandel, Cara Pellegrini, Cathy Yuen and Yanni Pelika.

[Latif Nasser]

Oh, one more thing before we go, Sarah.

[Sarakari]

Yes.

[Latif Nasser]

Do you remember when you produced that story about zoozve?

[Sarakari]

Yeah, of course.

[Latif Nasser]

The moon ish object around Venus that we officially named Zuzve. And then we learned that Earth has quasi moons too.

[Sarakari]

Right.

[Latif Nasser]

And then we started a global competition to come up with a name for one of these quasimoons.

[Sarakari]

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Latif Nasser]

Well, I am here to tell you and anyone who is listening that we gathered a bunch of expert people. Astronauts, astronomers, celebrities, high school students. We had this crack panel who helped winnow down we got because we got something like 2,700 submission name submissions.

[Sarakari]

Wow.

[Latif Nasser]

From like I think 90 something, almost 100 countries. What? And so they winnowed that all down to seven finalists. So now you and everyone and anyone living on planet Earth can vote for the name of the quasi moon. And the winner will be the official name that will outlive us all.

[Sarakari]

That is so crazy. Let this like I still am not over how this started with you seeing a thing in your kids. It's just crazy.

[Latif Nasser]

Anyway, but the fun that I and that we had in naming zoozve, it's now we've democratized it totally and it's out there and anyone anywhere can vote for their favorite and the names are beautiful, interesting.

[Sarakari]

And wait, and where do you go to vote? There's somewhere you can see all the names, names and such. Is that.

[Latif Nasser]

Yep. The place where you see the names and votes? Same place. Go to radiolab.org/radiolab.org Moon voting is open now all the way until January 1, 2025. So yeah, this, this December, tell everybody you know and vote yourself. And that is really your best chance to make your mark on the heaven.

[Sarakari]

Ah, amazing. I'm gonna go vote right now.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay. And while you do that, I will say that this episode was reported and produced by Sarakari, with production help from Rebecca Lacks. Edited by Alex Neeson that's it for us. We'll catch you next week.

[Sarakari]

Bye. Hey, I'm Lemon and I'm from Richmond, Indiana. And here are the statues. Staff credits Radiolab was created by Jad Abumrad and is edited by Soren Wheeler. Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser are our co hosts. Dylan Keefe is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Pressler, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Maria Paz Gutierrez Sindhu, Nanon Sambandan, Matt Kielty, Rebecca Lacks, Annie McEwen, Alex Neeson, Sara Khari, Sarah Sandbach, Anissa Viza, Arianne Wack, Pat Walters and Molly Webster. Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger and Natalie Middleton.

[Christine Enmark]

Hi, my name is Teresa. I'm calling from Colchester in Essex, uk.

[Grace Stewart]

Leadership support for Radiolab science programming is.

[Christine Enmark]

Provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore.

[Grace Stewart]

Foundation Science Sandbox Same Foundation Initiative and the John Templeton Foundation.

[Christine Enmark]

Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by.

[Sarakari]

The Alfred P. Sloan Foundation. Since WNYC's first broadcast in 1924, we've.

[Latif Nasser]

Been dedicated to creating the kind of.

[Sarakari]

Content we know the world needs.

[Latif Nasser]

In addition to this award winning reporting, your sponsorship also supports inspiring storytelling and extraordinary music that is free and accessible to all. To get in touch and find out more, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.