In C

Summary

Radiolab – “In C” (December 15, 2009)

Episode Overview

This episode of Radiolab, hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, dives into the avant-garde world of Terry Riley's In C—a 1964 minimalist composition that revolutionized modern classical music. The show explores how In C influenced generations of composers, investigates its process and improvisatory structure, and spotlights a contemporary “remix” project featuring contributions from the hosts and notable musicians. Woven through the episode are playful discussions, personal stories, and a demonstration of the merging of music, experimentation, and family life.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Revisiting the 'Numbers' Theme and Introducing 'In C'

• The episode begins with a callback to Radiolab’s previous “Numbers Show,” playing a tape of young Mina (Lulu Miller’s child) learning how to count. This audio sets a thematic bridge to tonight's main focus: music built on simple motifs and repetition (05:39 – 06:22).
• Jad Abumrad: “What I’m going to do is take that tape and play it for you in a completely new context, a non-Radiolab context.” (06:26)

2. History and Significance of Terry Riley’s In C

• Jad introduces In C, explaining its pivotal role in rescuing classical music from growing overly dissonant and inaccessible, and laying the groundwork for minimalism in modern music (06:44 – 07:56).
• Jad Abumrad: “It was like a watershed moment ... in C inspired Philip Glass and Steve Reich and scores of movie music ... that whole explosion of minimalism.” (08:02)
• The hosts note In C’s surprisingly wide-reaching legacy, touching everything from classical composition to techno and movie scores.

3. The Contemporary Remix Project

• Jad discusses his participation in a remix album by the Grand Valley State New Music Ensemble, who invited 16 to 18 artists to reinterpret In C (08:38).
• Personal story: Jad was approached for this project during his paternity leave, leading to a unique fusion of fatherhood and music in his contribution (08:59 – 09:11).

4. Remix #1: Michael Lowenstern

• Jad spotlights Michael Lowenstern, clarinetist and composer, and his remix of In C.
  • Michael explores the role of randomness within the structured framework of remixes, especially in the drum parts.
  • Michael Lowenstern: “The whole thing about In C is that it's really, it's about randomness ... And so the things that are most usually structured about any remix, especially a dance mix, is going to be the drums ... Well, that was the one thing that I threw to a random generator.” (09:49 – 10:20)
  • He details his process of algorithmically shuffling and chopping up the drum tracks for a fresh, dynamic take (10:27 – 10:38).

5. Remix #2: Zoë Keating – “Zinc”

• Jad introduces Zoë Keating, a cellist familiar to Radiolab listeners, who dubs her remix "Zinc" (11:59 – 12:09).
  • Zoë shares vulnerability about handling such an iconic piece.
  • Zoë Keating: “When I got the call to do it, I was sort of, like, both intrigued and scared. Because In C is such a well-known piece.” (11:59 – 12:09)
  • She discusses the symbolism of the key of C as “childlike optimism” and likens the experience to a rushing waterfall (12:22 – 13:04).
  • Zoë Keating: “I think of C and C major as being sort of childlike ... that beautiful California blue ... that is a C major sky.” (12:34 – 12:39)

6. Remix #3: Jad’s “Counting in C”

• With self-deprecation, Jad unveils his own remix, “Counting in C,” blending Mina’s counting tape, the repetitive musical patterns of In C, and playful sounds from around his home.
  • Jad Abumrad: “I thought, I’m gonna remix this piece as kind of a children’s song.” (16:22 – 16:33)
  • The track features voices of both Mina and Jad’s own son, Emile, combining personal storytelling with musical homage (16:44 – 16:49).
  • The remix is played in full (16:52 – ~20:53).

7. Reflections and Playful Banter After the Mixes

• Jad and Robert reflect humorously on the result, with Robert joking that listeners shouldn’t encourage Jad’s musical pursuits too much for fear of losing him to a new career (22:52 – 23:31).
  • Robert Krulwich: “Don’t write the man because I don’t want him to think about other career options because I could hear nasal stuff, Brooklyn playground stuff. Mina, I heard the drawers of your desk. It got every little thing.” (23:02 – 23:26)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jad Abumrad (on the genesis of In C):
  “People were writing all kinds of, like, really dissonant stuff. And it was interesting for a while, but then it became a little dull. Little hurtful, actually. People were losing interest. But then along comes our man Terry Riley, who writes this piece, In C. Very joyous.” (07:17 – 07:39)
• Zoë Keating (on the emotional space of C major):
  “When I think of, like, the key of C, I think of this sort of childlike optimism ... Like, I'm looking out the window right now, and the sky is that beautiful California blue. And that is a C major sky.” (12:34 – 12:39)
• Michael Lowenstern (on structure vs. randomness):
  “All of the drums are chopped up, and then it'll start shuffling.” (10:38)
• Jad Abumrad (parental pride and artistic vulnerability):
  “It’s true. I was kind of shameless. It’s true. But, okay, no more music for a while.” (23:26 – 23:31)

---

Important Timestamps

• 05:39 – 06:22: Introduction of Mina’s counting tape and the connection to musical structure.
• 06:44 – 07:56: Background and cultural significance of Terry Riley's In C.
• 09:31 – 10:38: Michael Lowenstern describes his remix process and the role of randomness.
• 11:59 – 13:04: Zoë Keating discusses her approach, emotional associations with the key of C, and the childlike optimism it represents.
• 15:26 – 16:33: Jad sets up his remix, explaining how fatherhood and music blended.
• 16:52 – ~20:53: Full play-through of Jad’s “Counting in C.”
• 22:52 – 23:31: Robert’s playful warning not to encourage Jad’s music career shift.

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Tone and Style

• The episode maintains Radiolab’s signature blend of curiosity, playful banter, and hands-on demonstration.
• Hosts are candid, self-aware, and often humorous—even gently self-deprecating.
• There’s an undercurrent of wonder and warmth, especially as personal stories mingle with musical and cultural history.

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Summary

“In C” is a celebration of musical experimentation, heritage, and the joy of combining art with life’s everyday wonders. Through conversations and remixes, Radiolab brings minimalist music’s legacy to life and personalizes it for a new audience, demonstrating that curiosity and creativity are deeply intertwined—whether in avant-garde composition, home life, or the magic of counting to three.

Transcript

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[Molly Webster]

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[Jad Abumrad]

All right? Okay. All right. You're listening to Radiolab Radio Lab Sharks from wnyc.

[Radiolab Sponsor Announcer]

Yes, and npr.

[Jad Abumrad]

Hello, I'm Jad Abumrad.

[Robert Krulwich]

I'm Robert Krulwich.

[Jad Abumrad]

This is Radiolab, the podcast. Today on our podcast, we're gonna do what? We're gonna. We're gonna revisit something from our last podcast, the Numbers Show. And at the same time, we're gonna travel to a completely new universe.

[Robert Krulwich]

A whole new universe.

[Jad Abumrad]

You ready for this?

[Radiolab Sponsor Announcer]

Well, I don't know what we're doing.

[Jad Abumrad]

You genuinely don't know what we're about to do.

[Robert Krulwich]

Right.

[Jad Abumrad]

Will you just state that for.

[Robert Krulwich]

For the record, audience, people, I have no idea what is about to happen.

[Jad Abumrad]

That's good. I like you in that state. So, Tim, do you have the tape of the. The actual numbers? Yeah. Okay, so here's the thing. We're gonna be revisiting, remember this piece of tape? Four, five, six, six.

[Radiolab Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

Can you do that? One, two.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay.

[Jad Abumrad]

Don't touch the microphone.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh, sure. Of course. This is from the numbers piece.

[VRBO Advertiser]

Numbers 1 to 10.

[Jad Abumrad]

I'll let you touch the microphone. 1, 2, 3.

[VRBO Advertiser]

1, 2, 3.

[Jad Abumrad]

Do you want to just maybe give it. Set it up, give it some context?

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay, so what you're listening to is one of the stars of Radiolab. She's now about 2 years old. She's actually. This is her second appearance on the program.

[Jad Abumrad]

That's right. Her name's Mina.

[Molly Webster]

Mina.

[Jad Abumrad]

Can you count? When do we get.

[Robert Krulwich]

And Mina in this case is learning the business of counting.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yes, that was raw tape recorded of Mina counting. Lulu Miller recorded it. And Mina's mother, we should also say, is Amanda Aronchak. Okay, so what I'm gonna do is take that tape and play it for you in a completely new context, a non Radiolab context. What? Maybe I need to say that again. A completely new context.

[Robert Krulwich]

You're a wild and crazy guy. Okay, I won't even ask why.

[Jad Abumrad]

Go ahead, I'll set it up for you. Okay, here's the backst. Okay. In 1964, there was a piece of music that we're going to talk about now called NC in C. In C.

[Robert Krulwich]

Is that like I N S E E as in I, I, C?

[Jad Abumrad]

No, no, it's like in letter C, like in the key of C. Oh, okay. C major. And you can hear it. It's kind of a sort of Philip.

[Robert Krulwich]

Glassy kind of thing.

[Jad Abumrad]

Like she was of kind. It was sort of. The original Philip Glassy kind of thing in C was written by a guy named Terry Reilly at a time when music, classical music, had turned very, very dark. You know, people were writing all kinds of, like, really dissonant stuff. And it was interesting for a while, but then it became a little dull.

[Robert Krulwich]

Little dull.

[Jad Abumrad]

Little hurtful, actually. People were losing Interest. But then along comes our man Terry Riley, who writes this piece in C. Very joyous. And it was like a watershed moment.

[Robert Krulwich]

I missed, I confess I missed that moment in the cultural history of America. It just went right by me.

[Jad Abumrad]

Well, lucky for you, you've got me. No, no, seriously, like in C inspired Philip Glass and Steve Reichstag and like scores and scores of movie music and you know, that whole explosion of minimalism, you could even say it like inspired techno and all kinds of other stuff. So in a way it all comes back to this piece which no one has ever heard before, called nc.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh.

[Jad Abumrad]

So here's what I want to do right now. I want to tell you about a project that I was involved in that united my Radiolab self with my non Radiolab self and at the same time brought in Mina the counting two year old.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay.

[Jad Abumrad]

There's an ensemble called the Grand Valley State New Music Ensemble who decided they were going to re record in C. And also they asked 18 people, or maybe it's 16. I can't. I always forget a whole bunch of people to remix the song. And I was one of the people they asked.

[Robert Krulwich]

Really? When did this happen? I didn't even know that this happened.

[Jad Abumrad]

This happened actually right when Emile was born. So I was on leave.

[Robert Krulwich]

So we are about to hear the Abumrad remix of Insee, the world famous piece that saved America's classical music from turning sour and Ookie.

[Jad Abumrad]

That might be overstating its influence a bit. But yeah, I do want to play you that remix. But before, before that, I want to play you two other of the 18 remixes, which I think are really good.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay.

[Jad Abumrad]

Starting with this one. I really like this remix. It comes from a guy named Michael Lowenstern.

[Michael Lowenstern]

My name is Michael Lowenstern.

[Robert Krulwich]

Mike Lowenstein.

[Michael Lowenstern]

I'm a dad, a composer and.

[Jad Abumrad]

And a bass clarinetist.

[Michael Lowenstern]

And a bass clarinetist.

[Jad Abumrad]

Hey, so speaking of bass clarinet, is that what that sound was?

[Michael Lowenstern]

Oh, no, that's, that's a synth.

[Jad Abumrad]

Whatever it is, I love that sound.

[Michael Lowenstern]

You know, the whole thing about NC is that it's, it's really, it's about randomness.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah. Because the performers are supposed to improvise.

[Michael Lowenstern]

And the whole thing about these remixes is that it's about structure.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Michael Lowenstern]

And so the things that are most usually structured about any mix, any remix, especially a dance mix, is going to be the drums.

[Jad Abumrad]

Drums do sound pretty structured.

[Michael Lowenstern]

Well, that was the one thing that I threw to a random generator.

[Jad Abumrad]

What do you mean? You mean depth?

[Michael Lowenstern]

It gets cut up. The drums never Sound the same twice.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, so you use the computer to, like, algorithmically randomize the drums.

[Michael Lowenstern]

All of the drums are chopped up, and then it'll. It'll start shuffling.

[Jad Abumrad]

Sam. So anyhow, it goes on. That's Michael's version. So I'm gonna play for you one more from someone that we've spoken with on the program before. Zoe Keating. Remember Zoe?

[Robert Krulwich]

Do I remember Zoe?

[Jad Abumrad]

Of course. Zoe. The cello goddess.

[Robert Krulwich]

The cello goddess, beloved by so many of our people who write into us.

[Jad Abumrad]

And that's not. You're not exaggerating.

[Robert Krulwich]

That's the tip of an iceberg. Yeah. Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

So Zoe had a very different take. Here's hers.

[Zoe Keating]

When I got the call to do it, I was sort of like, both intrigued and scared.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Zoe Keating]

Because In C is such a well known piece.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah. Now, you called your remix Zinc. Oh, what does that mean, Zoe?

[Zoe Keating]

In C?

[Jad Abumrad]

Is that what that means?

[Zoe Keating]

That's what it is. Because I never play in C, you know, it's a key that I always avoid.

[Jad Abumrad]

Why is it hard to play on the cello?

[Zoe Keating]

It's the easiest to play on the cello. Oh, it's really easy to play on cello. And it's kind of. I think of C and C major as being sort of childlike.

[Robert Krulwich]

Key.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Zoe Keating]

When I think of, like, the key of C, I think of this sort of childlike optimism. You know where you. Like. I'm looking out the window right now, and the sky is that beautiful California blue. And that is a C major sky. I wanted to make it feel like it was washing over me. Like it was sort of a rushing waterfall. And one thing is that I really wanted it to sort of fall over the edge of the waterfall because I wanted to really have that feeling of like. Okay, okay, okay, okay. Here we come. And now we're gonna fall off the waterfall.

[Molly Webster]

Sa.

[Jad Abumrad]

So that's Zoe's. Isn't that nice?

[Robert Krulwich]

That's really nice.

[Jad Abumrad]

I know. Kind of makes you feel warm.

[Robert Krulwich]

So are you gonna try to, like, improve on that? Because that would be dangerous.

[Jad Abumrad]

I don't know. I. I enter the. I. I put mine up against hers and Michael's with extreme caution. But here's mine. So let me set mine up.

[Robert Krulwich]

That's pretty brave of you.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay, I know. Well, I'm going to talk for a bit so that people forget the glory of what they just heard. Okay, so. Okay, so here's what I was thinking. I was on paternity leave, and you and everybody else was doing the number show.

[Radiolab Sponsor Announcer]

Right.

[Jad Abumrad]

And I was hearing some things you guys were Doing from time to time. And Lulu played me the piece she was working on, which was that one about counting, which included the tape that we played at the very beginning. Yeah, can you do that? And it was funny because I had gotten this NC commission, and I had this little baby, and I was doing that thing, you know, that people do with babies, where you just start counting to them. It's like an instinct. 1, 2, 3. And so I heard that tape, and I was like, oh, that's what I'm doing. But since I had NC in my head, I was kind of counting to that In C ostinato.

[Molly Webster]

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

[Jad Abumrad]

1, 2, 3, 4. 1, 2, 3, four. So it was the two sort of the two thoughts fused in my head.

[Robert Krulwich]

I'm already feeling a little sorry for this baby.

[Jad Abumrad]

So the two thoughts fused in my head. So I thought, I'm gonna remix this piece as kind of a children's song.

[Robert Krulwich]

So this is the Dedicated to Emil version of In C by.

[Jad Abumrad]

By me. It's called Counting in C. It uses that tape of Mina counting, and my own baby makes an appearance.

[Robert Krulwich]

Is your son gonna be in this?

[VRBO Advertiser]

Yes.

[Jad Abumrad]

He's one of the first things you'll hear.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh, you're shameless. You are a shameless father.

[Jad Abumrad]

It's true. It's true. So why don't we just play the whole damn thing?

[Robert Krulwich]

Let's play the whole damn thing.

[Jad Abumrad]

It. Up, Up.

[Robert Krulwich]

One.

[Jad Abumrad]

Up.

[VRBO Advertiser]

3, 4, 5.

[Molly Webster]

Ready?

[Jad Abumrad]

Do you remember how to count. It? Up, up.

[VRBO Advertiser]

Can you count all your pins?

[Jad Abumrad]

One. Sa. So that's my nc.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh, wow. Look, here's the thing. Don't write and say how much you liked it and how he should do this all the time, because this would be very, very disconcerting for those of us who work here.

[Jad Abumrad]

What does that mean?

[Robert Krulwich]

I think that this was just a little bit too good, actually, and slightly worrisome, really. Don't write the man because I don't want him to think about other career options because I could hear nasal stuff, Brooklyn playground stuff. Mina, I heard the drawers of your desk. It got every little thing.

[Jad Abumrad]

It's true. I was kind of shameless. It's true. But okay, no more music for a while.

[Robert Krulwich]

No more music for a while.

[Jad Abumrad]

If you want more information on the record, check our website, Radiolab.org I also need to thank Bill Ryan, who's the head of the Grand Valley State New Music Ensemble, for making the whole record possible. Now, to those funders. And they are?

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, they're the National Science foundation, the.

[Jad Abumrad]

Corporation for Public Broadcasting and the Sloan Foundation. Yes, I'm Jad Abumrad.

[Robert Krulwich]

And I'm Robert Colwich.

[Jad Abumrad]

Thanks for listening.

[Radiolab Sponsor Announcer]

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