Radiolab: "In Defense of Darwin?"

Host: Robert Krulwich
Guest: Richard Dawkins
Release Date: July 14, 2009

Episode Overview

This episode centers on a compelling conversation between Robert Krulwich and renowned evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins, focusing on Darwinism—its meaning, implications, and boundaries. Dawkins explores not just the elegance and explanatory power of Darwinian evolution but also warns against misapplying its logic to human society. The episode raises deep questions about purpose, meaning, morality, and what makes humans uniquely able to shape their future.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Introduction: Contradictions within Darwinism

• Robert Krulwich introduces Richard Dawkins as both a "passionate Darwinian" in science and an "anti-Darwinian" in politics and ethics ([03:28]).
• Dawkins’ family history is briefly recounted, connecting his combative intellectual style to his forebears.

2. Is There Purpose in Nature?

• Krulwich challenges Dawkins on the absence of "purpose" in nature, using the example of explaining to children why flowers exist ([03:56–06:13]).
• Dawkins’ Thesis:
  • Flowers do not exist "for" human delight or bee honey; their function is to reproduce their DNA.
  • "It's a piece of massive presumption to think that the what is for Question deserves an answer." ([05:26] - Dawkins)
  • The human tendency to seek deeper meaning or purpose is deeply ingrained but not supported by science.
  • Notable Quote:

    "We are here because something happened which led to something else that happened which led to something else that happened." ([06:38] - Dawkins)

3. Reductionism and Wonder

• Krulwich wonders whether viewing the world as a "purposeless, indifferent machine" is less joyful for children or adults ([07:49]).
• Dawkins rejects this, insisting that understanding the real, intricate functions of life is "super romantic" and more exciting than believing in unfounded purposes ([08:06]).
  • Notable Quote:

    "To actually understand that flowers are devices, beautiful devices, elegant devices which are shaped precisely to attract insects and hummingbirds and bats...That is such a mind blowing thought compared to the tame sort of washed out view that flowers are just sort of nice things to have around." ([08:06] - Dawkins)

4. Social Darwinism and Morality

• Dawkins explains his “anti-Darwinian” stance in human affairs:
  • Darwinism explains origins and nature, but applying its "survival" logic to society (as done by social Darwinists) leads to cruelty and injustice, for example H.G. Wells’ chilling eugenics ([09:20–10:59]).
• Notable Moment: Dawkins reads a disturbing passage from Wells about the "new republic’s" treatment of "inferior races" ([10:59]).
• Dawkins argues morality and human values should exist in opposition to some of our evolutionary tendencies.
  • "The fact that most of us spend most of our lives striving for purposes, striving for goals which have nothing to do with propagating our selfish genes is further evidence that it can be done." ([12:33] - Dawkins)

5. Human Uniqueness and Foresight

• Krulwich asks if humans, with the ability to foresee and plan for the future, are truly special in evolutionary history ([14:11]).
• Dawkins agrees—humans’ capacity for foresight represents a radical break from the blind, short-term process of natural selection.
  • "Foresight has literally never happened before in the whole history of life." ([14:48] - Dawkins)
• With this power, humans might be able to direct evolution itself, a concept foreign to basic Darwinian thought ([15:59]).

6. Conclusion: Our Greatest Gift

• Dawkins and his wife, Lalla Ward, read from his writing on humanity’s unique ability to understand and shape its own destiny.
  • Notable quote:

    "For good Darwinian reasons, evolution gave us a brain whose size increased to the point where it became capable of understanding its own provenance, of deploring the moral implications, and of fighting against them." ([17:14] - Dawkins)

  • The reading ends with a poetic ode to humanity's gift for reflection, foresight, and internalizing the cosmos ([17:41]).
  • Memorable moment:

    "The shark may outswim you, the cheetah outrun you, ... the redwood outlast you. But you have the biggest gift of all. The gift of understanding the ruthlessly cruel process that gave us all existence. The gift of revulsion against its implications, the gift of foresight..." ([17:41] - Ward, reading Dawkins)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & Dawkins' Family – [01:20–03:28]
• Darwinism as Science vs. Politics – [03:28–03:56]
• Questioning Purpose in Nature – [05:26–06:13]
• Reductionism and Wonder – [07:49–08:47]
• Social Darwinism & H.G. Wells Reading – [09:20–10:59]
• Morality versus Evolutionary Tendencies – [12:33–13:47]
• Human Foresight and Uniqueness – [14:11–16:36]
• Concluding Reading: Humanity’s Special Gift – [17:14–17:41]

Notable Quotes

• On the illusion of purpose:

  "Anybody who thinks there's a purpose, a reason why we live and look and behave the way we do, is under a terrible illusion. There is no purpose to our existence, no reason why we're here."
  — Robert Krulwich (paraphrasing Dawkins) ([03:56])

• On the romance of science:

  "No, no. I think that's kind of super romantic. To actually understand that flowers are devices, beautiful devices, elegant devices which are shaped precisely to attract insects and hummingbirds and bats..."
  — Richard Dawkins ([08:06])

• On humans as uniquely different:

  "Humans are especially differently different. And one of the respects in which, that's true, is exactly what you've said [foresight]."
  — Richard Dawkins ([16:36])

• On morality and evolution:

  "Evolution gave us a brain whose size increased to the point where it became capable of understanding its own provenance, of deploring the moral implications, and of fighting against them."
  — Richard Dawkins ([17:14])

Episode Tone and Style

The conversation blends curiosity, philosophical depth, and a bit of theatrical flair (especially the reading at the end). Dawkins is rigorous yet passionate, sometimes combative, but always earnest in his insistence on scientific clarity, while Krulwich presses for the emotional and existential implications for ordinary people.

In Summary

This dense, thought-provoking episode tackles the legacy and limits of Darwin’s ideas. It explores how understanding evolution reveals not only the "how" of life but also what humans might do with that knowledge. Dawkins’ defense of Darwin is both rigorous and nuanced—he champions the scientific purity of Darwinian thought while insisting it must not be used as a guide for ethics or society. In the end, humans’ real distinction is their capacity for reflection, critique, and purposeful change—gifts that surpass even the ruthless ingenuity of natural selection.