Radiolab: "In The Dust Of This Planet"

Episode Date: September 8, 2014
Host: Jad Abumrad (Robert Krulwich absent)
Main Guests: Eugene Thacker, Brooke Gladstone, Simon Critchley, June Ambrose

Overview

This episode explores how the philosophical ideas of nihilism and pessimism—especially as articulated in Eugene Thacker’s book In the Dust of This Planet—have unexpectedly migrated from the academic margins into mainstream pop culture. The story traces the eerie journey of Thacker’s gloomy philosophical treatise as it surfaces in HBO’s True Detective, high fashion, and even on the back of Jay Z in a Beyoncé music video. Through conversations with Thacker, media analyst Brooke Gladstone, philosopher Simon Critchley, and celebrity costume designer June Ambrose, the episode unpacks what it means when dark, meaning-destroying phrases become "cool," and whether that represents a cultural shift or simply a recurring motif in times of existential uncertainty.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Origins of "In the Dust of This Planet"

(02:07–04:37)

• Jad introduces his brother-in-law, Eugene Thacker, a philosopher, and his book In the Dust of This Planet, which deals with the concept that "maybe there’s no inherent meaning to anything."

  • "The family joke is that he writes books for no one." – Jad Abumrad (02:34)
  • Thacker himself: "I write books that nobody reads... so maybe I should write books for no one to read and just sort of embrace that." – Eugene Thacker (02:56)

• Core philosophical thrust:

  • The "greatest horror" is the possibility that nothing exists and nothing matters.
  • The tradition of nihilism and pessimism: there may be no order, no purpose, just accident and arbitrariness.
  • "This is what Nietzsche called the most difficult thought." – Jad Abumrad (04:13)

• Thacker traces nihilism in horror films and black metal music as forms wrestling with this challenging idea.

2. From Obscurity to Pop Culture Phenomenon

(04:54–07:28)

• Thacker’s book initially goes largely unnoticed until True Detective airs:

  • The character Rust Cohle echoes Thacker’s worldview.
  • Show creator Nick Pizzolatto names Thacker as an influence.
  • "I was like, this replicates so many conversations that we've had in the car." – Prema Murthy (05:45)

• A fashion moment:

  • Actress Lily Collins is photographed wearing a sweatshirt with the book title.
  • The design comes from a Norwegian artist’s painting picked up by a fashion label.
  • "She's just casually wearing my husband's book cover." – Jad Abumrad (07:15)
  • Thacker: "I write books for no one to read, so obviously I'm not pulling in a lot of royalties on these." (07:40)

• Jay Z dons a jacket emblazoned with the book's title in the Beyoncé "On the Run" tour promo video.

  • "You see Jay Z turn, stick a giant gun out to his right, and he is wearing Eugene's book right there on his back: In the Dust of This Planet." – Jad (08:51)

3. Nihilism as the "Credo of Cool"

(10:21–13:11)

• Simon Critchley, philosopher, enters the discussion, tracing the allure and history of nihilism in youth and pop culture.

  • "Nihilism is the basic credo of cool because it's sexy, it's interesting, and it's been that way forever." – Simon Critchley (11:00)

• Historical cycles:

  • 19th century literature (Fathers and Sons by Turgenev).
  • The Dada movement post-WWI: "Dada means nothing. Everything one looks at is false." – Brooke Gladstone quoting Tristan Tzara (12:12)
  • Punk rock emerges post-WWII amid nuclear fears.

• "Pop culture, at least since I was a kid, has always been deeply nihilistic." – Simon Critchley (12:40)

4. Modern Nihilism: What's Different Now?

(13:11–16:36)

• Critchley notes students are more drawn to nihilistic and mystical ideas than ever, based on a seminar he taught with Thacker on mysticism.

  • Students were captivated by stories of ascetics and mystics withdrawing from corrupt civilization—parallels are drawn to modern disillusionment.

• Underlying cause today:

  • Overwhelming, diffuse crises (beheadings, pandemics, climate change).
  • "The world I grew up in made sense... there was the United States, there was the Soviet Union, we were going to be eviscerated. That was clear... now who am I supposed to say 'you' to?" – Simon Critchley (15:58–16:36)

5. Climate Change, Pessimism, and Adapting to the Inevitable

(16:40–18:23)

• Citing the IPCC’s new language around adaptation rather than prevention—an example of society moving from hope for salvation to preparing for unavoidable consequences.

  • "Now we need to talk about dealing with the mess that is now on our doorstep." – David Victor, climate policy expert (17:16)

• "My own assessment is that the kinds of actions you'd need to do that are so heroic that we're not going to see them on this planet." – David Victor (18:23)

6. Why Do We Find Nihilism 'Cool'?

(18:32–29:39)

• Refrain: What is the appeal of donning the phrase "In the Dust of This Planet" on clothing?
  • "Why would you want to put a phrase that deliberately negates the person wearing it on your chest?" – Jad (18:56)

Jay Z’s Jacket: The Origin Story

(23:45–28:12)

• June Ambrose, Jay Z’s costume designer, tells how she found the jacket:

  • Wanted something "epic, but effortless."
  • The words on the jacket felt "menacing… the aftermath, that there was something going on that was periling. The end of an era, the beginning of something new." – June Ambrose (26:48)

• Ambrose reflects: it's about fearlessness in the face of the end.

  • "It was almost as if he didn't even know that was on his back. You know what I mean? It's like that was the afterthought... I don't care... I'm not afraid." – June Ambrose (27:33–27:56)

The Deeper Motif

• "That all this pop nihilism around us is not about tearing down power structures or embracing nothingness. It’s just—look at me, look how brave I am that I can wear it on a T-shirt." – Jad (28:33)
• "That is nothing more than a posture... It's simply a posture, and that's why it's in pop culture." – Eugene Thacker (29:06)
• "Why we love nihilism in pop culture is that it saves us having to be burdened with it... We can enjoy it... and then go back to work." – Simon Critchley (29:30)

7. Beyond Cynicism: Transforming Nihilism

(29:48–31:36)

• Nietzsche saw nihilism as a beginning, a place to "reevaluate values."

  • "If you took it in, you could get to the other side, which he called a reevaluation of values, some new way of thinking about who we are as moral creatures. And that's kind of where I am. And love, love is that capacity..." – Simon Critchley (30:09)

• The mystics (ascetics) in Critchley and Thacker’s seminar embodied a "radical" love, a devotion that went beyond nihilism—something students responded to.

• The episode ends with a playful fantasy of Jay Z and Beyoncé as mystic lovers in the desert, starting a new age.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On writing for no one:
  "I write books that nobody reads. And then after a slow, long period of acceptance, I started to think, well, maybe I should write books for no one to read and just sort of embrace that meaning."
  —Eugene Thacker (02:56)

• On pop appropriation:
  "It just looks like a cool phrase to go on a T-shirt, to put on a goth girl in some photo shoot."
  —Eugene Thacker (09:47)

• On why nihilism stays cool:
  "Nihilism is the basic credo of cool because it's sexy, it's interesting, and it's been that way forever."
  —Simon Critchley (11:00)

• On mystical yearning:
  "There was this deep need being fulfilled by these strange mystics."
  —Simon Critchley (15:09)

• On climate inevitability:
  "Now we need to talk about dealing with the mess that is now on our doorstep."
  —David Victor (17:16)

• On nihilism as posture:
  "It’s simply a posture, and that's why it's in pop culture."
  —Eugene Thacker (29:06)

• On transcending nihilism:
  "Nietzsche... had this idea about nihilism—that it was just the beginning, that if you really dealt with it... you could get to the other side, which he called a reevaluation of values."
  —Jad Abumrad (30:09)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:07] – Thacker on writing "for no one"
• [04:13] – Nihilism, meaninglessness, and Nietzsche’s "most difficult thought"
• [05:45] – True Detective as a vector for Thacker’s ideas
• [07:11] – Lily Collins wears the book on a sweatshirt
• [08:51] – Jay Z’s "In the Dust of This Planet" jacket
• [11:00] – Simon Critchley on nihilism and coolness
• [12:12] – Dada and historical nihilism cycles
• [16:14] – Diffuse modern crises and longing for simpler threats
• [17:16] – Climate change and adapting to inevitability (David Victor)
• [23:45] – Interview with June Ambrose
• [26:48] – Why the jacket "felt right"
• [27:56] – Fearlessness in facing oblivion
• [29:06] – Nihilism as posture and performance
• [30:09] – Nietzsche and the creative potential of nihilism
• [31:36] – The episode’s semi-fantastical conclusion

Conclusion

The episode traces how a deeply philosophical meditation on cosmic meaninglessness is transformed—by chance and pop culture’s perennial fascination with darkness—into a statement of stylish indifference and perhaps even bravery. In unraveling how and why nihilistic themes come to prominence, and whether this signals resignation or the chance to rethink our values, "In the Dust of This Planet" encapsulates Radiolab’s knack for connecting the esoteric with the everyday, and the grim with the surprisingly life-affirming.

Further Reading & Listening:

• In the Dust of This Planet by Eugene Thacker
• Radiolab.org for the episode link and resources