It's Not Us, It's You

Summary

Radiolab – "It's Not Us, It's You"

Date: December 16, 2016
Hosts: Robert Krulwich, Minouche Zamorodi (guest hosting for Jad Abumrad)
Theme:
A celebration of the unique, reciprocal bond between Radiolab and its listeners, revisiting memorable listener stories and exploring the power of community, giving, and the ripple effects of storytelling.

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Episode Overview

This special episode turns the tables: the creators of Radiolab and some of their most notable fans meet, swap perspectives, and reflect on the ways the show and its listeners influence one another. Threaded through these encounters are meditations on giving—of time, voice, memory, and even life itself. The mood is warm, sincere, and often intimate, with the hosts and guests sharing candid moments and deeper truths.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Listener-Maker Boundary Blurs (00:00–03:25)

• Introduction by Robert Krulwich and Minouche Zamorodi: They frame the episode as an exchange between the show's makers and fans, highlighting Radiolab's reliance on community support.
• Robert Krulwich: “So in the next bit of time, what we’re gonna do is we’re gonna pal up. We’ve invited some of the people who normally listen to come on the show, and people who normally make the show come and listen, and we’re mixing it up a little bit. It’s a strange menagerie of humans, and we wanna just go to the zoo of us.” (01:19)

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Spotlight: The Underwriting All-Star – Terry Babcock Loomis (03:26–10:00)

• Arianne Wack (producer) calls Terry Babcock Loomis, a devoted listener whose voice is featured in hundreds of Radiolab underwriting messages.
• Terry’s Background: Former White House economist, married to an Army officer, moves frequently.
  • Quote: “There is no reason why I should have gotten mixed up with an army guy, [but I] fell madly in love.” (06:27)
• On participating: Terry sees her frequent readings as an accessible way to support public radio.
  • Quote: “I think about for people who are busy or...can't write a big check, even just a little tiny, what would be the equivalent of your coffee—I think people feel like that’s not enough, but those coffees add up.” (08:40)
• Takeaway: The smallest acts of giving, repeated by many, create real impact.

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Listener Stories: Connecting Through the Airwaves

Mayank Mishra – Finding Belonging, Grieving, and Science (11:25–21:47)

• Who: Former civil rights lawyer in India, now an ecology grad student at Princeton.
• Radiolab as Lifeline: Mayank shares how listening to Radiolab, particularly the "Afterlife" episode, helped him process the grief of losing his father and grandfather.
  • Notable passage: Mayank recalls the idea that groups (like friendships or platoons) "die" when dispersed, mirroring human death. (14:07–16:03)
• On Science and Curiosity: “No one becomes a scientist because they read a really credible scientific paper. They become scientists because they’re inspired by this world around them, and they’re just really curious about what’s going on. And you inspired me to be more curious...sometimes just looking for questions is really enjoyable. It’s a lot of fun.” (19:55–21:01)
• Emotional Highlight: Hearing the Radiolab intro feels like “stepping home from the cold.” (18:44)

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The Unexpected Wisdom of Amy Pearl (23:05–28:51)

• Who: Amy Pearl, a fan-favorite guest from the "Alpha Gal" episode.
• Fan Response: Listeners loved Amy’s honesty about her red meat allergy and life in New York.
• Urban Philosophy: Amy describes how the city both challenges and rewards kindness.
  • Quote: “You have every opportunity to make someone else’s day better, which you could just be like, I’m a superhero. If something happens, I’m going to rush over there. And something might happen any second because I’m in the city.” (25:51)
• Finding Beauty: She recounts a moment of wonder seeing a pile of “pretty” oak leaves, turning even mundanities into narratives.
  • Memorable Line: “It smells good and it’s pretty. I mean, it’s probably covered in dog piss. But I didn’t get that close and I thought it was really beautiful.” (27:00)

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Football, Family, and CTE – The Bartels’ Dilemma (30:13–44:38)

• Who: Monet Bartel, daughter of NFL player Mel Farr, and her son Parker (“the Tank”).
• Family Legacy: Football is woven into the Bartel family, but CTE casts a shadow. Monet’s father and other family members suffered symptoms.
• Double Bind: Monet wants to protect her son but also values what football brought her family.
  • On her son Parker’s shifting interests: "I don’t really care about that [football] either. I really want to do synchronized swimming." (33:45)
• Personal Loss: Monet recounts her father’s sudden death and confirmation of CTE after examining his brain posthumously.
  • “We knew my father suffered from CTE...but you don’t really, you know, you don’t think about it. And then getting the results back...I’m like, God, you know?” (37:03)
• Historical Reality: Football was one of the few ways for a smart Black man from the segregated South to succeed.
  • “Being smart and black wasn't enough...wouldn't have gotten him to dinners at the White House.” (39:57)
• Current Solutions: Monet encourages awareness; her son is now a school mascot, a safer but still celebrated role.

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Giving Life: The Ripple Effect of Sarah Gray’s Donation Story (47:01–55:51)

• Who: Sarah Gray, whose infant son Thomas died at six days old and became an organ and tissue donor for research.
• Impact: Her quest to understand what became of her son’s donated tissues brought comfort and purpose to her grief.
  • On explaining to her surviving son: “He knows that he had a brother who was a twin who had a very, very, very bad boo boo on his head, and that’s why he died. And we just explain, you know, sometimes kids die.” (49:50)
• Continued Generosity: Sarah now donates placenta and breast milk, and attempts to personally thank other donors.
  • She calls herself a "donation weirdo," finding meaning in connecting both ways. (52:14)
• Real Impact: A listener, inspired by Sarah’s episode, was able to donate her own child’s tissues for research, echoing Thomas’s legacy.
  • “...their daughter was able to donate eight different tissues to eight different studies. And in fact, the retinas went to the same lab and the same researcher that received my son’s retinas.” (55:06)
• Metaphor of Agency:
  • “I had this feeling that I’m not the boat, I’m the ocean. Like, the decisions that I make are changing other people as opposed to just I’m a boat getting slapped with waves all the time. It has made me feel...powerful.” (56:04–57:06)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Listeners’ Unusual Depth:
  • Robert Krulwich: “When you meet them, they don’t come and say, yo, I really...whatever that thing you do. They don’t do that. They have, like, very specific sort of either compliments or arguments, but they’re listeners, meaning they’ve listened.” (10:13)
• Mayank Mishra’s Reflection:
  • “You inspired me to be more curious...to recognize that we don’t have answers. And sometimes just looking for questions is really enjoyable.” (19:55)
• Amy Pearl’s New York Survival Guide:
  • “Everything is so hard in the city...But if you want to do good, you can.” (24:54–25:51)
• Sarah Gray’s Empowering Grief:
  • “I’m not the boat, I’m the ocean.” (56:04)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Topic | Timestamps | |---------|-------|------------| | 01:00–03:25 | Episode Framing: Gathering listeners and makers | | | 03:26–10:00 | Terry Babcock Loomis: Underwriting All-Star | | | 11:25–21:47 | Mayank Mishra: Grief, Science, and Curiosity | | | 23:05–28:51 | Amy Pearl: Life Wisdom from a Listener | | | 30:13–44:38 | Monet & Parker Bartel: Family, Football, and CTE | | | 47:01–55:51 | Sarah Gray: Donation, Legacy, and Agency | |

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Tone and Style

The episode is conversational, intimate, and often emotionally resonant. The hosts and their guests express gratitude, curiosity, and vulnerability, frequently pausing to savor insights or to acknowledge difficulty and growth. Though the structure is episodic—jumping among listeners and stories—the through-line is always connection and the significance of even small acts of generosity or communication.

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Conclusion

"It's Not Us, It's You" turns Radiolab's lens back on itself and its community. Through conversations with beloved listeners and follow-ups to past stories, the episode explores the texture of giving—whether it’s a voice, an idea, a moment of kindness, or the ultimate gift of tissue and memory. The boundaries between creators and audience are blurred, celebrating the reciprocity that guides Radiolab and the powerful, sometimes unexpected, consequences of simply reaching out.

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For those moved to act, the episode repeatedly invites contributions to keep such storytelling alive—echoing the episode’s core message: the real magic of Radiolab is in its living, giving ecosystem of listeners and makers, together.

Transcript

[Minouche Zamorodi]

What if thousands of deals were waiting for you? Black Friday is here at Best Buy, where you can find huge deals on the coolest tech. Get deals on smart TVs, the latest in gaming, sleek headphones, and more that are perfect for everyone on your gift list. Plus, find new doorbusters for even more savings. But hurry. Black Friday deals end Saturday, November 29th. Shop [e-mail] Best Buy. Imagine that.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Wait, you're listening.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay. All right. Okay.

[Monet Bartel]

All right.

[Latif Nasser]

You're listening to Radiolab Radio from wny.

[Robert Krulwich]

Hi, I'm Robert Kilwich.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

I am not Jan Abumeri.

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, you say who you are, that's the immodest thing to do.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

I'm Minouche Samaroti. I host another podcast at WNYC Studios. Note to self, you also are on.

[Robert Krulwich]

Our show Radiolab, you know, very, very frequently. Well, not very frequently, but frequently enough. Frequently enough, brilliantly enough.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Thank you, sir.

[Robert Krulwich]

So there we are.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Yes, and I am here pinch hitting for Jad for a little bit to spread the word that this is an important time for Radiolab. Robert?

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, it's the end of the year, the giving time.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

It is the end of the year.

[Robert Krulwich]

What we're about to do, I think will be kind of wonderful because we who make the show and you who listen to the show don't often have a chance to get together. So in the next bit of time, what we're gonna do is we're gonna pal up. We've invited some of the people who normally listen to come on the show, and people who normally make the show come and listen, and we're mixing it up a little bit. It's a strange menagerie of humans and we wanna just go to the zoo of us.

[Tracy Hunt]

So.

[Robert Krulwich]

So that is coming right up. But if you'd like to hit pause just for a second and make a contribution right away, like right now, you can enjoy the episode knowing that you've already done the thing that you were supposed to do that we're gonna be on our knees begging you to do. Well, you've already done it. You've already solved the problem.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Yes. Do you want me to take over here?

[Robert Krulwich]

Right here?

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Okay, yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

I'll slip in and then I'll think of something to say on the other side.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Okay, very good. So what Robert is beating around the bush is that Radiolab relies on the support of listener contributions, listeners like you. Yes. Who make all the stor stories that we produce possible. So it's time that we extend a hand to you, our podcast listeners and invite you to make a financial contribution so that Radiolab can keep these episodes coming your way. It is super easy to do. We ask you to go to radiolab.org donatetogive or even easier if you live in the US open up your phone. It's probably what you're listening on anyway. Open up the messaging app. Type the word Radiolab to the number 69866. That'll get you started.

[Robert Krulwich]

But suppose you live in Montevideo, Uruguay, or in Zagreb, Yugoslavia, a country which no longer exists.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Don't do that.

[Robert Krulwich]

Then you can't. What do you have to do then?

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Just go to Radiolab.org donate.

[Robert Krulwich]

That's what I always do whenever I'm in Central Europe, South Asia or South America. And it's really easy, so don't be intimidated by it. Now, as we promised, it is time for you to meet some people whom you hear on our show but have never really met. Arianne Wack produces a part of our show. She's never met them either. So this was her chance to find out about them. Our chance to find out about Ariane. Found out.

[Arianne Wack]

Hello, is this Terry? Ooh, did I lose ya? Did I lose ya?

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Hey. Hi. I don't know if you heard that. Hi, how are you?

[Robert Krulwich]

I'm good.

[Arianne Wack]

How are you?

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

I was so touched to receive your email.

[Arianne Wack]

Well, I don't wanna.

[Monet Bartel]

Your email.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Really?

[Monet Bartel]

Surprise.

[Arianne Wack]

All right, so I decided to call up this woman that I have just been desperately curious about for years now, since I've worked here.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

What's on your mind? What can I do for you?

[Arianne Wack]

The reason? Well, I've been wanting to reach out to you for a while because part of my job here is to listen to all of the spots that come in for our underwriting and I choose the reads and produce them and put them into the episodes they need to go in.

[Robert Krulwich]

Cool.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Thank you for what you do.

[Arianne Wack]

To back up for a second, we have our listeners submit underwriting reads via the app and we put them into the breaks of our shows. If you've listened to the show with any regularity, you've probably probably heard this and.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Hey, this is Terry Babcock Loomis.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Support for NPR comes from NPR station.

[Arianne Wack]

Terry Babcock Loomish does every single one of them.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

This is Terry Babcock Loomis. This is Terry Babcock Lumish. Terry Babcock Lish.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

This is Terry Bcomish.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Terry Babcock Loomis.

[Arianne Wack]

Terry Babcock loomis more than 300 times. And I, I know that if in a pinch, I need a spot quick, I know that there's going to be a read from Terry. Terry Babcock Loomisch Loomis.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Are you tired of hearing my voice at this point?

[Arianne Wack]

Yeah. No. That's why I wanted to call you guys, because there's three of you that leave. I mean, read almost every single piece of copy I put up. And so especially, you know, I think you've probably been doing it the longest out of any of them. So I remember, like, when you moved from Cold Spring, New York, from, like, Cold Spring.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Aloha. This is Terry Babcock Loomisch in Honolulu.

[Arianne Wack]

Hawaii, down to Honolulu. And like, I know, like, when your husband is around.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Hi, this is Brian Babcock. And this is Terry.

[Arianne Wack]

Because occasionally, like, he'll pop in.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah.

[Arianne Wack]

And so I just. I feel like I kind of know you.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Oh, my gosh, you're so sweet.

[Arianne Wack]

Well, I mean, it is all based on, like, evidence that I've, you know, gathered from your phone calls and the background noises and whatnot.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Oh, my God. Seriously, you're awesome. This is really fun. Okay, what's your hypothesis?

[Arianne Wack]

My hypothesis? Well, you lived in Cold Spring for a while, and I was like, she doesn't. She sounds too young to be like a. Like a snowbird. So I didn't think that you guys had moved for the weather. I was like, somebody must have gotten a job down there. And then you have grandkids. And I was surprised. I had heard them a couple times, or at least they sound like little kids to me.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Maybe they're not grandkids because technically I don't think we're even old enough to have grandkids. Okay.

[Arianne Wack]

Yeah. So I've got conflicting narratives here.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

That's all pretty good. Okay, you want the real story?

[Arianne Wack]

Yeah, I would love the real story.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

So my background's government. I was a White House economist in first Clinton administration. Oh, my God. There is no reason why I should have gotten mixed up with an army guy, fell madly in love. So he's active duty military, and so we move every two or three years with his army assignment, summer 2014, and he gets assignment to Hawaii, and that's where we live. So there's a story. That's the short version.

[Robert Krulwich]

That's great.

[Arianne Wack]

I love having the background, actually. That makes me so happy.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah.

[Arianne Wack]

Have you ever heard yourself when, like, you've listened to Radiolab? Have you ever heard one of your reads?

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

So I haven't. You haven't?

[Monet Bartel]

No.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

But on a regular basis, I'll get An email from a former student or a friend or whoever it might be saying that they heard me on Radiolab. And it's always so nice because I'll hear from someone that I feel so detached from or just far away from. But, no, I've never heard one.

[Arianne Wack]

Do you have a favorite episode?

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

I don't know, but I think one of the things that I love is that you take things that are very complex and you make ideas. Whether it's, you know, CRISPR Cas9 or infectious diseases or black holes or things I don't even know that I'm going to be interested in, you make them not just interesting, but accessible and exciting. And then I remember it, and then I want to talk about it.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Yeah. So let me ask, do you have a favorite?

[Arianne Wack]

Well, I mean, there's frequently 30 different drafts of an episode, so it's hard to, like, hear the finished product as just a listener again and not being like, oh, I didn't depop that P there, or, you know, like, oh, the room tone there. I could have smoothed that out or something, you know, And I miss. I miss that a little bit.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Yeah, it's been thought of it that way. So, yeah, I hate to do it, but I really should get my. Totally fine at this point. Well.

[Monet Bartel]

Oh, God.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

God.

[Arianne Wack]

I guess. I mean, I want to know, like, why you do it, like, why. Why you're so committed to, like, giving to us in this particular way.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

So I feel like what you've asked.

[Monet Bartel]

Of us is so little.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

And so whether it's public radio asking for paychecks or it's me reading some credits, it's something I can do. And frankly, it was fun.

[Arianne Wack]

Okay.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

And it's interesting. And, you know, wherever we've lived, I've wanted to even strictly occasional pledge drive, you know, to be involved with public radio. I think, you know, it really is the soundtrack of my life. And I could be wrong, but I feel like for plenty of people there concerned that they can't give a big check that they shouldn't give. And I'm often very quick to challenge that assumption. You know, I think about for people who are busy or for people who can't write a big check, you know, even just a little tiny, what would be the equivalent of your coffee? I think people feel like that's not enough, but those coffees add up. And I don't think we should underestimate.

[Monet Bartel]

Our collective tower with our coffee.

[Tracy Hunt]

Yeah.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

And so next time in New York, if I can take you for a cup of coffee, I would Be happy to, because I really am appreciative of all.

[Arianne Wack]

Yeah, no, that would be great. Thank you so much. This was. I really enjoyed this conversation.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

So have I. It's been such a pleasure. And I have to admit, I was very surprised by your call. I didn't know if you were telling me, like, stand down, like retired parents.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Really?

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Thank you so much.

[Arianne Wack]

All right, thank you. Thanks so much, Terry.

[Robert Krulwich]

Bye.

[Monet Bartel]

Bye.

[Tracy Hunt]

Bye.

[Robert Krulwich]

Minouche. Here's the thing about Terry, is that she's one of a lot of folks who tune us in and then kind of join in. We have a very unusual audience.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Yeah, you have an awesome audience. Radiolab listeners are the best, but in.

[Robert Krulwich]

Very particular ways, when you meet them, they don't come and say, yo, I really. Whatever that thing you do, they don't do that. They have, like, very specific sort of either compliments or arguments, but they're listeners, meaning they've listened.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Robert, I think what you're saying is the listeners, you listeners, not only do you give your time, you give your brain.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yes, the brain, the brain.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Let's also remember, you give contributions. It is what keeps Radiolab on the air. And in order for 2017 to knock it out of the park, like 2016 did, we need you to keep doing that, please.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah. So how would they. If you were just sitting here, just sitting there thinking about, like, me. Okay, maybe now, what would you do right now if you wanted to, you.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Would go online to Radiolab.org, donate to, give and.

[Robert Krulwich]

Is Radiolab spelled in two words or one?

[Minouche Zamorodi]

No, it's just one.

[Robert Krulwich]

That's right.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Or even easier, just text that one word, Radiolab, to the number 69866 to get started. That's if you're in the US you can do that. In any case, though, you can get it handled in a matter of seconds. And we thank you for it.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah, we really do. And now, an introduction to one of our listeners whom I recently met.

[Mayank Mishra]

The three things that I say I love about this country are, first of all, you know, drinking water coming out of your faucets. It's insane. You know, you're thirsty in the middle of a shower, you just open your mouth and you're done. It's incredible.

[Robert Krulwich]

So this is my unc, Mishra. He's a graduate student in ecology at Princeton University.

[Mayank Mishra]

Then there's bike lanes, which are fantastic.

[Robert Krulwich]

Bike lanes.

[Mayank Mishra]

Yeah. Because you should try riding a bike in Calcutta or Delhi. It'll definitely get you closer to God. That's right.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah.

[Mayank Mishra]

God does exist in India.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah. So Mayank started out as a civil rights lawyer in India, often defending people whom he thought had been jailed without cause. He left for the United States, in part because he had sued the man who suddenly became the Prime Minister of India. And he thought, well, maybe I should, you know, go somewhere else.

[Mayank Mishra]

And the third thing I love about this country was Internet. I mean, just really great Internet, where I could listen to things all the time. And after I heard Radiolab was when I first started listening to podcasts.

[Robert Krulwich]

I first met my uncle after giving a lecture up at Princeton University. He came up afterwards and he said, oh, I want to tell you about the first time I heard Radiolab. It's okay. He was on a road trip with some of his friends, fellow students.

[Mayank Mishra]

So I was supposed to be navigating. I was just graduating from my Masters in Public Administration from Princeton. We were done with school, but we were still getting to know each other because, you know, now that we were done with it, we knew each other, but we didn't quite know where everyone came from. And we were going to a beach house. The entire class was going there to sort of say farewell and, you know, spend a few days together. And I was supposed to be navigating, and I got everything wrong. And we went miles away, and I started talking about how I had to deal with the loss of my father and then my grandfather, both my closest friends. And we were also having to deal with the fact that we were going to leave this place behind and leave this community behind that we had formed over the past two years. The first one I had in the U.S. someone said, you know, there's this incredibly great episode by Radiolab on life after life. I think it was.

[Robert Krulwich]

That was our afterlife episode. It was a series of meditations on death. On this hour, we ask that question, am I dead? What happens at the very moment when you slip from life to the other side and what happens after?

[Mayank Mishra]

And we started playing it, and it was just stunned silence through the entire thing. And one of the. One of the things that's always stuck with me is that I remember you were talking about a group, and it said that what happens when the group disperses and people go their separate ways? Does the group die or do they carry it with them?

[Robert Krulwich]

This was a short fiction piece by the neurologist David Eagleman, which was read on our show by the actor Jeffrey Tambor.

[Mayank Mishra]

When soldiers part ways at war's end, the breakup of the platoon triggers the same emotion as the. Well, the death of a person. Participants amble away feeling that they were just part of something larger than themselves, something they intuit had a life, even though they can't quite put a finger on it. In this way, death is not only for humans, but for everything that existed. And it turns out that anything that enjoys life enjoys an afterlife. And then there was something about when you pass away, what happens to the. To the things that make you up when you die? You are grieved by all the atoms of which you were composed. I mean, they hung together for years, whether in sheets of skin or communities of spleen. But with your death, they don't die. Instead, they. They part ways, moving off in their separate directions, mourning the loss of a special time they shared together. Actually haunted by the feeling that they were once playing parts in something larger than themselves, something that had its own life, something, well, they can hardly put a finger on. And I think. I don't know. I had not thought about things that way. I had never thought about where life begins and where it ends.

[Robert Krulwich]

And my uncle mentioned another Eagleman piece that caught his ear from the same show.

[Mayank Mishra]

There was this one thing that you said, which was that one way of looking at death is when the last person speaks your name. That's when you're gone. There are three deaths now. The first is when the body ceases to function, of course, and the second is when the body is consigned or, you know, put in the grave. The third is that moment sometime in the future when your name is spoken for the last time. Or with my father and my grandfather, you know, the day we forget them, the day, you know, we stop passing on their stories and no one remembers them, that's when they're gone. That's when they're actually gone.

[Robert Krulwich]

So you're listening to this and the other three people listening, and there's this kind of deep quiet in the car.

[Mayank Mishra]

Yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

And then what happened?

[Mayank Mishra]

So that happened. And then that was my introduction to listening to podcasts. And then I started listening to Radiolab more.

[Robert Krulwich]

Did you have a lot of time in your head? What was going on after school? What happened to you?

[Mayank Mishra]

So what happened was, even in school, I had been a lawyer, and I had reached this point where I thought, you know, I was done with human beings, I was done with human rights, I was done with all of that stuff because I felt like we were just too far beyond saving. And I feel like clearly this is not where I should be, because there's a bigger world that I clearly have some affinity to.

[Robert Krulwich]

But what did you decide to do? Like, what was the New.

[Mayank Mishra]

I wanted to go back to school and I wanted to study ecology, and I attended a class in ecology, and it completely blew my mind. And I decided that, you know, clearly I'm not on the right path, and maybe this is the path I should be on. I remember we were living in Brooklyn, right across from the Botanic Gardens, and even through the winter, I'd go there and I'd be listening to Radiolabs, and I. You know, every time I think of Radiolab, I think of smiles and tears sort of streaming down my face because there's always so much emotion that's sort of packed into it. And I'd be sitting there in the cold, in the snow, in the Botanic Gardens, no one else around, with a small notebook, listening to Radiolab, and every time something would come into my head, I'd jot it down.

[Robert Krulwich]

So sitting there in the Botanic Gardens, listening to us, like, what did that do for you?

[Mayank Mishra]

So, opened me up and held me together, did both things right. Opened me up to this new world of ideas and thoughts and a community of people who also have similar thoughts, who also want to find out more about what's going on, and also held me together because I was sort of by myself. I'm very, very fortunate to have my wife with me, and she was. I mean, she's been a huge pillar of support, but we have both sort of stepped out of our comfort zones and have thought about all of these things to some extent because of Radiolab. You know, every time I hear the opening credits of Radiolab, it feels like I've just stepped back home from the cold or something. It's just, you know, shake off the snow from your jacket and settle in.

[Robert Krulwich]

Do you feel like you've sort of solved something?

[Mayank Mishra]

I hope not, I hope not. But I certainly feel very happy about where I am.

[Robert Krulwich]

It's interesting because if you listen to the show, we do. We never solve anything.

[Mayank Mishra]

That's right. Yeah, we never do. So, you know what? This was something I've been thinking about a lot recently, and I was speaking to a very close friend about this as well, and I was thinking about what is the role of scientists. And I found that more recently that there. There have been things that make me wonder what the scientific community is looking out for. Sometimes I think sometimes we're sort of caught up in our credibility and the fact that we must maintain this credibility and we shouldn't break rank. But no one becomes a scientist because they read a really credible scientific paper. They read. They become scientists because they're inspired by this world around them, and they're just really curious about what's going on. And you inspired me to. To be more curious. Right. To recognize that we don't have answers. And sometimes just looking for questions is really enjoyable. It's a lot of fun.

[Robert Krulwich]

Right.

[Mayank Mishra]

And to do it together, to. To be looking for things together, to go on this treasure hunt around life together. That's home.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Oh, Robert. I think I might be in love with my unc.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah, well, I already am, so I beat you there. When we shook hands, I remember holding onto his hand for an extra beat. Because when you do this for a living, you don't expect to do anything much more than tell a story. But if you can. If you can help somebody get out of a hole or climb a mountain or change, you know, change a life, then, like, that's cherry on top. Super duper cherry on top. And that happens, oddly, not unoften on this show. So that's really cool. And I just.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Should I just say, like, if you listeners, if Radiolab has touched your life at some point in this past year, it doesn't mean that you had to have a career makeover like my own. Maybe it was just like it made smile or it made you think about something a little bit differently. We ask you to remember you're part of a community, and this community is held together with listener contributions. It really is what keeps Radiolab going.

[Robert Krulwich]

So let's suppose you were in the mood to give Radiolab something. How would you go about that?

[Minouche Zamorodi]

It's quite easy, Robert.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay, let me just take me through it slowly and step by step.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Well, these are podcast listeners, so they kind of get this whole digital.

[Robert Krulwich]

Take me through it fast.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

So Radiolab.org donate the place to go. Or if you're listening on your phone, it's really easy opening up your messaging app that you've got there.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah, sure. Got one of those. Mess app, I call it.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Oh, that's very good. I like to contract text the word Radiolab spelled fully out to the number 69866. That's 69866.

[Robert Krulwich]

Now what?

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Oh, now. Oh, yeah. We have another story to tell.

[Robert Krulwich]

We do, we do. And this next one comes from our producer, Annie McKeown, who was. Who wanted to meet somebody who's. Well, we all wanted to meet her. So here we go.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Okay, so a few months back, we did a story called Alpha Gal.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay, is your mic on?

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Yeah, I'm getting. This is making me nervous.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

And the star of that show was a woman named Amy Pearl, maybe I.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Should get my EpiPen.

[Latif Nasser]

Are you allergic to radio greatness?

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Not that I know of. I haven't been really exposed to it yet.

[Robert Krulwich]

I'm Robert Krulwich. This.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

The story was about Amy Pearl's allergy to red meat and how she got that allergy to red meat. So I'm not going to tell you any more. You should go listen to the story. Go listen right now. But the reaction we got from the audience on Twitter and in comments on our website was just insane. Usually we get kind of like, you know, the odd comment here or there. Love the show, hated the show, where's the science?

[Tracy Hunt]

Stuff like that.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

But this time, it was just like this huge outpouring of deep, deep love for Amy Pearl. Like, you know, get that girl her own show. She's incredible. She changed my life. Amy Pearl for President was one of the tweets, and I felt the same love for her that everyone else did. And my job at the show is, you know, a lot of cutting tape and sound design and music and stuff like that. So I never actually, like, met her before, but I met her through her voice. And I also thought, wow, she's very wise in ways that I feel like I really need in my life right now. And so this is one way to get more, you know, bring more Amy Pearl back into our lives again, which feels good.

[Monet Bartel]

Hello.

[Tracy Hunt]

Hi.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Also, it was sort of an opportunity for me to ask a question. I wanted to kind of, like, I recently moved here from a really small town in Canada, and I'm trying to figure out how to, like, be a human being in this city and just, like, you know, not let it.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Well, I mean, it's like. I mean, do you ever hear. There's a famous saying. Did you ever hear it? If you can make it here, you can make it anywhere.

[Tracy Hunt]

That rings a bell for sure.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

It's up to you. You New York? No, but it's really true. Everything is so hard in the city. I mean, forget it. It's like, I'm like, oh, I have to renew my driver's license. You have to renew your driver's license. You're in big trouble. Oh, my God. Everybody, Amy has to renew your driver's license. Take the week off. It's not going to work out for you, Amy. I don't know. Let's start a support group. It's just like, everything is hard and, like, all you have to do is go for a minute. Like, where? My mom lives in Connecticut, and I go up there and she's like, oh, I'm going to return something at Costco. I'm like, you kidding me? I'm only up here for two days. We don't have time for this. And she's like, oh, it'll be easy. You, like, drive up, drive into a parking spot, get out of the car, walk. One second.

[Robert Krulwich]

Hello.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Nice to meet you. Let me help you. You're all set. Thanks so much.

[Robert Krulwich]

Bye.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Get back in the car, drive into your driveway, park in the garage. I don't know why the city's so hard. It's so hard. What do you do?

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Like, what?

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

What do I do? I mean, well, for sure, a good thing about being in the city is if, you know, if you want to do good, you. You can. Like, I'm sure between now and the time you get home tonight, you can, like, pick up someone's pen, like, remind, like, tell somebody they have. They have, like, toilet paper on their shoe, help someone who seems lost, or, like, smile at someone who seems down, or be like, oh, my God, I love that book. It's like you have every opportunity to make someone else's day better, which you could just be like, I'm a superhero. If something happens, I'm going to rush over there. And something might happen any second because I'm in the city. It's like, you know, and it's like, when you're walking around the city, I always find treasures. Like, if you look in the gutter, you just, like, pick up the foot of a Barbie, and it just seems, like, so great and, like, I don't know.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Can you tell me what's your. What's, like, the last time you really saw the city as beautiful?

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Oh, my God. I think the last time I saw the city as beautiful was probably last night. It was very dark, and I got my dog and we went out, like, on the block that I walk on all the time. But somebody had swept all the leaves, and there was a pile of oak leaves on the side, and the light from the house flicked on, and every oak leaf was, like, silhouetted. And they're such a pretty shape. And I was like, oh, my God. These are just being thrown out by the tree. These are not even, like, of use. And then I was like, wow, every single year it grows a brand new leaf and then drops it off and then grows another one, drops it off and grows another one, drops it off. And it must live for, like, 200 years. And, like, imagine how many leaves the tree drops off. And, like, where does it all go? And, like, what is all that energy coming from and why are they doing it? And it smells good and it's pretty. I mean, it's probably covered in dog piss. But I didn't get that close and I thought it was really beautiful. And it was like. It was a good moment.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Oh, Amy Pearl, she's the best.

[Robert Krulwich]

You know, like she was. So when you hear Amy Pearl talk about anything.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Dog pee.

[Robert Krulwich]

Dog pee is fine, because Amy Pearl is what is what you would call a nst.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

What's that?

[Robert Krulwich]

A natural storyteller. Oh, yes, yes. There's no way she can't make everything interesting. And she. So when this tape came in, when we heard it, we went, oh, my God, get her on the air and don't take her off. We could just live on Amy Pearl.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Now listen, though, Robert. There's a reason why we were able to get Amy Pearl on the show.

[Robert Krulwich]

It's because of the pearls that are our listeners who feel precious but don't always do the thing that precious things have to do in order to keep other precious things alive and well.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

I don't know what that means, but I think it was an attempt to say in a poetic way that people who love the podcast and give just a few dollars make this work possible.

[Robert Krulwich]

That was exactly what I meant.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Was that it? Okay, and I wanna add something. We actually have some really great Radiolab swag.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh, we do?

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Yeah. There's a. Don't pretend you're not wearing the hoodie all the time.

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, it's a very warm hoodie.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

And if that's not your bag, there's a bag, actually. There's a knit winter cap, there's a T shirt, there's lots of swag. And you know what it is? I feel like listeners when you wear the Radiolab swag, I see you on the street and I'm sure of it. When we look at each other, we give a little wink. But you can't get the swag without making just a little donation. And we asked, how do you do that, though? Oh, funny you ask, Robert. Let me tell you. Radiolab.org Donate or even easier, if you're in the US, text the word Radiolab to the number if you're on your phone, 69866 to get started.

[Robert Krulwich]

Next up, a story about a boy, his mom, football, and Latif Nasser. Latif is our producer. He. He missed out when we broadcast this, but he wanted to get into the game, as it were. And here's what happened next.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah, and I actually. Now our football episode, American Football. It was actually the first episode I was on staff for. I fact checked it and it had all kinds of things. It had a story about the history of football and the forward pass and the Carlisle Indian team. But it also had kind of, what is the big question now? What's the future of the game? And that question was perfectly encapsulated by this interview with this woman.

[Monet Bartel]

I'm Monet Bartelle.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

You could add something like if you want.

[Monet Bartel]

I'm Monet Bartel. I'm a Libra. I enjoy long walks on the beach. I'm just joking.

[Latif Nasser]

So this story came to us from our senior editor, Soren Wheeler, who you just heard back there. And basically the story goes like this. Monet Bartel is from a family that lives and breathes and bleeds football. Her dad, Mel Farr, the superstar, was a star running back for the Detroit Lions. He was a two time Pro Bowler. Both her brothers were professional football players. And so for Monet, when she had her first son, Parker, as soon as.

[Monet Bartel]

The doctor saw his third thumb.

[Robert Krulwich]

Like.

[Monet Bartel]

Yes, we're going to the NFL, baby.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yes.

[Monet Bartel]

And then Parker's 10 pounds and one ounce. He's the biggest that he walked out the womb.

[Latif Nasser]

I'm still going with third thumb.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Third thumb.

[Latif Nasser]

And so Monet, she signed Parker up to play in a league when he was 4 years old.

[Monet Bartel]

And they immediately, they named him the Tank.

[Latif Nasser]

The moment he gets on the field, he is just plowing through kids, getting touchdown after touchdown. But this is where things get complicated because while Parker is on the field just dominating, Monet has a relative who played football for a very long time and was experiencing symptoms of cte. Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy, which is what comes from like concussion.

[Monet Bartel]

Concussion after concussion.

[Latif Nasser]

Symptoms include memory loss, sometimes bouts of anger.

[Monet Bartel]

In this case it was depression, it was suicidal thoughts, it was getting phone calls like, hey, I need you to come get him because he's having dangerous thoughts.

[Mayank Mishra]

Yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

And Monet told us that eventually her father started experiencing symptoms of CTE as well. And that put Monet in a very difficult position because on the one hand.

[Tracy Hunt]

She believed that children should not play football.

[Latif Nasser]

But then at the exact same time.

[Monet Bartel]

She believed children should play football, that it's a great sport. And as for Parker, when I asked.

[Tracy Hunt]

Parker how did he like the season.

[Monet Bartel]

His favorite things were the trophy and the pizza party at the end. He had no desire. You want to play again next season? No.

[Latif Nasser]

Now, our favorite moment of this whole story and a lot of listeners to, was when.

[Monet Bartel]

Come sit with me. I Need to sit on your lap.

[Latif Nasser]

Parker comes home from school and sits down with Soren and Monet. And Soren asks, look, if you don't like football anymore, do you like other sports.

[Mayank Mishra]

Or. I don't really care about that either.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

I really want to do synchronized swimming.

[Latif Nasser]

Really?

[Robert Krulwich]

Is that true?

[Monet Bartel]

Where did you come from?

[Tracy Hunt]

Is that true? Mm.

[Robert Krulwich]

Why?

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Mostly because when I saw something about it, it looked kind of cool. Like people were doing a lot of cool swimming tricks. So I kind of thought it was something for me.

[Latif Nasser]

You playing me?

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

True.

[Tracy Hunt]

I wanna do synchronized swimming.

[Latif Nasser]

You're like, this guy's gonna come talk to me about football, and I'm gonna tell him that I wanna do synchronized swimming.

[Tracy Hunt]

Right?

[Latif Nasser]

No. You like it?

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Yeah, it sounds kinda good.

[Latif Nasser]

He likes to swim, and so. Hello.

[Monet Bartel]

Hello.

[Latif Nasser]

Hey, Monet.

[Robert Krulwich]

How you doing? Hey.

[Monet Bartel]

I'm good, Lateef. How are you?

[Latif Nasser]

We called Monet because every time now that I see football in the headlines, I think of her, and I wanted to see how she was doing.

[Monet Bartel]

All right.

[Latif Nasser]

Also, like, that tiny interview with your son. Just like, I think about it all the time. He's kind of my hero.

[Monet Bartel]

It has grown legs, I swear. Because of that interview, I was contacted about a month ago from espn.

[Latif Nasser]

Really?

[Monet Bartel]

They reached out to me, and they came out here and spent three days interviewing Parker, following him around. Oh, you can't tell Parker anything now. He thinks he's hot. S H I t. He has now said in the interview with espn. And, you know, I know they were waiting for him to say he was going to be a synchronized swimmer. Now he switched it up.

[Latif Nasser]

Oh, he switched it up.

[Monet Bartel]

Now he wants to play dodgeball.

[Latif Nasser]

Hey, good sport. Although there's a lot of. There's a lot of, like, unlike synchronized swimming, dodgeball is kind of a contact sport.

[Monet Bartel]

Yeah, he's not going to.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

He.

[Monet Bartel]

I don't even think he plays dodgeball in gym. I just think this kid lived to embarrass the crap out of me. But the series is about the love of football. And they said, aside from Parker's lack thereof, with us having such a presence in NFL, in my immediate family, it was the thing of that oxymoron, the fact that I love football so much and that football is still extremely dangerous. You know, my father passed away last year.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh, my God.

[Latif Nasser]

I'm so sorry.

[Monet Bartel]

My dad passed away in August of last year, which threw us all for a loop. My dad was, like, the healthiest person that we know, and he dropped dead. I talked to him that morning. It was a Monday, and by 7pm that evening, he just. He just. He just kind of slipped away. And we got his results back. You know, we did send his brain and spinal cord, and my dad was at stage three of four with cte.

[Latif Nasser]

Oh, wow. And that's the kind of thing you can only find out after someone's dead, right?

[Monet Bartel]

Exactly.

[Latif Nasser]

And was that. Were you sort of expecting that?

[Monet Bartel]

Not at all.

[Latif Nasser]

Oh, really?

[Monet Bartel]

We knew my father suffered from cte. And I jokingly would say my having a conversation with my dad towards the end of his life would be like 50 first dates. Because my dad will tell.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

He'll.

[Monet Bartel]

He'll talk to you like, hey, you remember such and such and such. And I'm like, yeah, Dad, I remember. Hey, you remember such and such and such. I'm like, bruh, we just had this conversation. But you don't really, you know, you don't think about it. And then getting the results back from my father, I'm like, God, you know? Stage four CTE is Mike Webster.

[Latif Nasser]

Just to jump in here. Mike Webster was a former professional player who was suffering from amnesia, dementia, depression. He died at the age of 50.

[Monet Bartel]

Stage 4 CTE. It's Junior Seau.

[Latif Nasser]

Junior Seau was another former professional player. Shot himself in the chest at 43 years old.

[Monet Bartel]

Stage four is something that these families are suffering because they're watching their loved ones who can't take it anymore. So they think that taking their lives is the easiest way to go. That's the only way to calm whatever it is that's going on in their mind because they can't even explain what's going on. I'm thankful I didn't have to do that. I cried when I watched Junior say I was mom in the press conference. I cried when I watched that because I can't imagine, as a mother, as a sister, as a wife, as a daughter, I can't imagine watching my dad or my brothers or my uncles or my cousin go through life like that, because both of my brothers are exhibiting signs now. That's all I can really think about is now, what about them?

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah, so is there. What can you do? What can they do?

[Monet Bartel]

That's the crazy thing. You can't prepare for it. You can't stop it. There's absolutely nothing you can do. And still with that at football every Friday night, because my nephew plays. He just got bumped up to varsity still, you know, I'm happy now that I can laugh and I can smile because I was completely. I turned into, like a vampire. When you just out of nowhere, when you're just, okay, talk to you later. And then there never is a later. Yeah, that's a tough one.

[Latif Nasser]

Did your dad, before he died, how did your dad feel about football? How did he feel about cte? How did he feel about all of this stuff?

[Monet Bartel]

If you asked my father, he would tell you I would not have changed a thing. If you look at when my dad was growing up, you know, my dad was in an era where it was separate but not equal. He didn't have indoor plumbing. He had to drink from the colored only water fountain. My dad will tell you, he said, man, I ain't never had to drink cold water. So I got to la. He didn't even know that. Feel like, what is this going down my throat?

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

So cool.

[Monet Bartel]

Like, you know, so being. Being smart and black wasn't enough. If he would have been black and didn't play football, even as smart as my father was, where would that have gotten him? You know, wouldn't have gotten him to. To dinners at the White House. Would it have gotten him the private jet? Would it have gotten him, you know, the house and us, these private school educations and all that? Would being a smart black guy in the early forties. In the forties, Would that have. What would that have done?

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah.

[Monet Bartel]

He was able to build a life playing for the Detroit Lions, who's owned by the Ford family, and then being able to go and intern at Ford, you know, in the off season, and then opening up a Ford dealership, and then from there branching out to what, 14 new car franchises. But he left with all of us to be able to carry on that legacy so it won't be in vain. We have started a foundation. We're building on it little by little, just trying to figure out where and what avenues we want to go in. We know education is huge, and, you know, I would just want to bring awareness, especially to mothers who put their young children in football, as I did.

[Mayank Mishra]

Yeah.

[Monet Bartel]

Just to be aware of what the dangers are. Are you willing to sign up for that? So now I'm going to. I'm really thinking of tricking Parker into becoming a kicker. He can do a kicker or a punter. That's what I'm going to trick him. But however, he is his middle school mascot.

[Latif Nasser]

Oh, really? I was the mascot of my high school. What is he?

[Monet Bartel]

Oh, you're kidding.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah, I was. I was. Griffey the Griffin.

[Monet Bartel]

Yeah. Parker's the Alligator. I forgot the alligator's name. Golly. But he's the alligator.

[Latif Nasser]

How does he like being the Alligator.

[Monet Bartel]

He loves it.

[Latif Nasser]

And he has, like, a costume that he wears.

[Monet Bartel]

He wears an entire furry head and everything. Alligators don't have to turn into some kid. I make. Who is this kid?

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

He.

[Monet Bartel]

He. He starts dabbing and, like, he's this whole other kid. And so my husband. The first thing my husband says is, he's like, the mascots, they still get a ring, right? So now I'm like, we're going to keep you in mascotism, whatever it's called, because there are scholarships, and a lot.

[Latif Nasser]

Of you think there are mascot scholarships.

[Monet Bartel]

There are mascot scholarships.

[Latif Nasser]

No.

[Monet Bartel]

Yes. I know. I'm thinking way ahead of time. He's only in the fifth grade, so.

[Latif Nasser]

Is he, like, he developing, like, dance moves or, like, are there signature masters.

[Monet Bartel]

Like, he gets to. On Fridays, he greets the kids in the morning. He's got to get there early, you know, put on his costume, and he's out there in the carpool lane greeting kids as they come to school. He does the special events at the school. Like, he did the fall festival and the trunk or treat. And one of his teachers won teacher of the year award. So we got to go to the teacher of the year awards ceremony. As a mascot, like, he's just living it up.

[Latif Nasser]

I hope he wins all the mascot scholarships and makes it pro. You know, is it. It's probably cutthroat to go pro for mascots.

[Monet Bartel]

Yeah.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

I don't know how that goes.

[Latif Nasser]

I don't even know how that goes. I have no idea.

[Monet Bartel]

We'll have to see when we get there. And how much do they get paid? You know, all these other. But Parker also wants to be an engineer.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay.

[Monet Bartel]

So I'm sure he wants to be.

[Latif Nasser]

He could do both.

[Mayank Mishra]

He could do both.

[Monet Bartel]

Absolutely.

[Latif Nasser]

Thinking about what you said about your dad, I hope for Parker that he will be able to get that engineering, you know, that being smart will be enough. Or if he wants to be a mascot, he can get all the scholarships, go to whatever school he wants. He does not have to put his body in harm's way if he doesn't want to.

[Monet Bartel]

Right. He doesn't have to. My oldest nephew, Trey, he, until recently had the title as the smartest kid in the family. He played football, but he made a plan. Hey, I don't want to go. Probably I'm gonna play in college, but I'm gonna go to a college that's going to give me a head start. So he went to Brown.

[Latif Nasser]

Wow.

[Monet Bartel]

He played at Brown, won a ring, did well, and now he's off Doing his brown thing in San Francisco, making great money as a young black guy because he was smart, not because of football. So would I love to see my son in a football jersey? Sure. But am I thrilled to see him in the alligator outfit? Absolutely.

[Robert Krulwich]

So we can't offer you listeners a mascot scholarship that is really beyond our reach. And then you'd have to choose your animal and we'd have to make the uniform. So we can't. It's a hard. It's fun, but it's a hard world. So we're going to streamline when, when we think about you instead of thinking about animals or griffins, as in Latif's case, we're going to just think of you as generous. And now, Minouche.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Yes.

[Robert Krulwich]

If I wanted to be generous, what would I choose to do?

[Minouche Zamorodi]

You would go to Radiolab.org donate or even easier, you could text the word radiolab to the number 69866 to get a little form pops up, Robert, and you can donate in a matter of seconds. And then you can go back to thinking how awesome Radiolab's first spinoff was too. More perfect. More of that's gonna be coming up in 2017.

[Robert Krulwich]

I'm glad you mentioned that because a lot of the people who've been listening to us this past year noticed or joined a whole lot of people that we never heard from before became listeners to something we call More Perfect. It's a show about the Supreme Court of the United States. We thought of because we thought the Supreme Court was going to be interesting. And now, of course with 2017, yeah, we were right in spades. Because what's going to happen next year is got to be the Supreme Court will be near the center of a lot of conversations from a lot of people in 2017. So this more Perfect show is coming back in the spring of 2017, more episodes. And so people who want to hear it again, it's coming.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

But listen, here's the thing. Listener support is a critical component of More Perfect. It's a critical component of Radiolab. Any amount that you can give, just make a gift. Any amount, make a gift and show that you understand that this is the time to get a year end tax deductible break.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah. It's also the time for us to be talking about things that matter in a year where things will matter a lot. So yeah, we'd like you to join us both because you want to and just because we think you should. But right now, if you know what I mean. Forget my drift.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Yes. Okay. And next, Robert, a story that captures that spirit of doing for others in a way that few can.

[Tracy Hunt]

Hi, my name is Tracy Hunt. I'm a reporter here at Radiolab, and I wanted to talk to someone who has a very different relationship with giving. Hello, Sarah. Hello, Sarah Gray. Oh, hi. There you are.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

How are you?

[Tracy Hunt]

I'm good. I'm so good. Thank you. Sarah was the star of a show that we did a little while back called Gray's Donations.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

I guess I'm like, a little bit nerd famous now.

[Tracy Hunt]

You're nerd famous?

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Yeah.

[Tracy Hunt]

Wait, what does that mean?

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Well, just nerds know who I am. You know, nerds who listen to radiolabs.

[Tracy Hunt]

Just a quick recap. Sarah told us a story about how she was pregnant with twins, Thomas and Callum, and something was wrong with Thomas. Doctors told her that he had anencephaly.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

And he said he could see that because one of the twins had a round skull and the other one had a bumpy skull.

[Tracy Hunt]

She ended up giving birth to both of them, and Thomas died six days later.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

And then right then, we called the Washington Regional Transplant Community. They sent a van over to our house, and they picked up his body and took him to D.C. children's National Medical Center.

[Tracy Hunt]

So the story was about how Sarah ended up going on this journey, trying to find out what happened to all the bits and pieces that were donated. So she talked about, for example, going to Duke University where they were using cord blood from her twins, and they were actually researching the disease that killed Thomas Anencephaly, and going to University of Pennsylvania and talking to a woman there who was studying this eye cancer that mostly affects children called retinoblastoma.

[Latif Nasser]

Eventually, Sarah and Ross visited Arupa's lab. She gave them a tour, and she showed them Thomas's retina.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

She still has samples of it in her freezer. Tiny little.

[Latif Nasser]

I don't know, tiny little vials, maybe a third the size of your pinky, filled with frozen liquid. Liquefied retina rna.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

It didn't look like much, but it was amazing to think of how many people were involved getting these samples there. Like, we had to approve it. We had to fill out this paperwork. Then the doctor had to come and remove the eyes, and the eyes had to be processed, and the eyes have to be shipped up there, and then they have to do whatever DNA process they do. And just how, I don't know, valuable, maybe even priceless, the sample is.

[Tracy Hunt]

Since the show came out, she released a new book called A Life Everlasting. And I Just really wanted to get on the phone with her and just talk about what the impact of the show has been and what's going on with her life. And one of the first things I found out was that she had a new baby.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Yes, we have a baby girl that she was just born in June.

[Tracy Hunt]

Oh, congratulations.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Thank you.

[Tracy Hunt]

And how's Callum doing?

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

He's doing great.

[Tracy Hunt]

This is Thomas brother.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

He can now read a little bit. He's in first grade, and he's liking his sister.

[Tracy Hunt]

What have you told him about Thomas?

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

So he knows that he had a brother who was a twin who had a very, very, very bad boo boo on his head, and that's why he died. And we just explain, you know, sometimes kids die. That's just part of life. People, you know, they get diseases just like grownups, and it's okay to die.

[Tracy Hunt]

Does he ask you questions about Thomas?

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

We visit the grave maybe one or two times a year. And when he was younger, he asked, is Thomas scared under the stone? And he was probably maybe two or three. Questions like that were hard because I don't know how to explain the afterlife. I don't understand it myself. So I just told him, no, he's not scared. He thinks of Thomas as being in heaven. But he also asked me, you know, can you tell me what is it like in heaven? And I said, you know, I was really, like, sort of wringing my hands, like, oh, what do I say? I said, well, you know, some people think it's a place you go when you die. And some people think it's got clouds. And Calum just goes, no, look it up on your phone like you wanted a picture. Yeah, I just looked it up on my phone. I'm like, you know, this might be real, might be real, but this is what people think. Yeah. Can you show me a picture of God? You know, stuff like that. Sometimes it's hard, and then sometimes it's easy. It's kind of a mixture.

[Tracy Hunt]

Yeah, that's it. And also, since the show, Sarah has kept on donating. In fact, when her daughter Jocelyn was.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Born, I was inspired to donate the placenta. And the umbilical cord was turned into four different skin grafts that are going to be used in surgeries and for burn survivors. And also, the umbilical cord blood went.

[Tracy Hunt]

To research, but also she's been inspired to track down the people who have donated things to her.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

As I was writing my book, I got this idea for tracking down the blood donors.

[Tracy Hunt]

When she was in the hospital with the twins, she actually had A traumatic delivery. She lost half of her blood, and she ended up getting a transfusion from 11 different blood donors.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

So I emailed the blood bank, and I've met with them, and they have sent out a thank you letter from me to those 11 people.

[Tracy Hunt]

And when Sarah was in the hospital with Josh, Jocelyn actually got some donated breast milk.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

And I ended up saving the bottle. I actually framed it. I keep it in my office because it just cheers me up to think of strangers donating things to each other.

[Tracy Hunt]

Yeah.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

But I emailed the breast milk place, and I said, this is my donor ID for the breast milk. Can you tell me who are the people that donated this milk? Can I send them a thank you? And this is all kind of like. I know I sound like a donation weirdo, but, you know, it's like you receive and you give, and I just. I just think it's neat to make the connection and find out how that really works.

[Tracy Hunt]

Since we recorded the episode with you, have you heard anything new come out of the research using your son's tissues?

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

So there's a study that came out on tissue that could be my son's cornea.

[Tracy Hunt]

This lab in Boston, they've been studying corneal blindness. Because when your corneas are damaged, those.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Cells, once you lose them, they're never coming back.

[Tracy Hunt]

They don't regenerate, they're just dead.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

That's what people have, corneal blindness.

[Tracy Hunt]

And so they're trying to figure out ways to regenerate them.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

They took corneal cells and they wounded.

[Tracy Hunt]

Them and then added umbilical cord blood to those cells.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

And they found some early stage steps to show that these corneal cells might be able to regenerate with stem cells, which I believe is kind of what they're getting at is a possible stem cell eye drops to get your vision back.

[Tracy Hunt]

Oh, wow.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

So this is like way, way, way in the future, but it's the beginning of, you know, a what if situation. That. What if we could make eye drops like this?

[Tracy Hunt]

You check, like, the research often. How often do you do that?

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Yeah, whenever I feel like it.

[Tracy Hunt]

Does it feel like you're kind of like, kind of continuing your relationship with Thomas in some way by checking on these things?

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

I don't know what you call it. I feel like Thomas, you know, he lived and he died, and he made this contribution, and I'm like a spectator kind of watching how his contribution is affecting other people. And I'm more like learning from him than having a relationship with him. But I know.

[Tracy Hunt]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'M not sure that relationship is the right word. I was just trying to, like, it's almost. I don't know, I don't want to say, like, it's like he's still there. Nothing like that. I just, you know, like, he's. Like, he's still very much a part of your life in some way.

[Monet Bartel]

Yeah.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

He's still relevant.

[Monet Bartel]

Yeah.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

His life did not just affect my family. His life affected many other people.

[Tracy Hunt]

And in fact, Sarah told me that eight months after the show came out, she heard from this couple in California.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Husband and wife in California. They had twins. And unfortunately, one of them died unexpectedly. And I believe they asked, could they donate? And the group said, you cannot donate for transplant because your child is too small. And they said, well, we heard Radiolab. Can we donate to research? And they said, yes. And their daughter was able to donate eight different tissues to eight different studies.

[Tracy Hunt]

Oh, my goodness.

[Monet Bartel]

Yeah.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

And in fact, the retinas went to the same lab and the same researcher that received my son's retinas.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Oh, wow.

[Monet Bartel]

I know.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Oh, and the other weird thing is that their twins were born on the exact same day as my twins.

[Robert Krulwich]

That's.

[Tracy Hunt]

Oh, my goodness. That's so. That's so powerful. I don't. I'm really kind of speechless that that. That happened.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

It did for me, at least, bring back. So, you know, when my child died, you feel like you have no control. But being able to donate gave me a sense of control back that, you know, at least this is one thing I can control.

[Tracy Hunt]

Right.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

So I was glad that it had that impression. It had that effect on them.

[Tracy Hunt]

Sarah talking to me about trying to regain a sense of control in the face of unimaginable grief reminded me of something else she said at the end of Grey's donation.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

I used to think like the universe treated people the way it should, and now I don't really believe that, but I do believe that there are really amazing kind people in the world, and science and medicine has something to do with that. I started feeling that these were Thomas colleagues and his co workers and that he was a valuable partner in this important research that was being done. And I felt an even more fundamental shift. Almost like I had felt like I was a boat on an ocean that was, like, rocky and choppy with waves. And I had this feeling that I'm not the boat, I'm the ocean. Like, the decisions that I make are changing other people as opposed to just I'm a boat getting slapped with waves all the time. It has made me feel.

[Arianne Wack]

Powerful.

[Robert Krulwich]

Sarah Gray, speaking with Radiolab's Tracy Hunt.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

I think that really is a perfect way to wrap up some of these catch up stories that we've been doing during this episode of Radiolab, stories that really have impacted the Radiolab crew and.

[Robert Krulwich]

You, our listeners, and Minouche Zamorodi. I want to thank you for just popping in here. Jad will be back in January.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

It's been fun.

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, it's been wonderful. It's been more than fun. It's been like cozy.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Yes. Some would say repetitive.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

Not me, though.

[Robert Krulwich]

But not me. I would just say cozy. And I would like to thank all the people who've been, I assume, I kind of have to assume that you've done something during this time and if you haven't done that something, well, just say one more time what the doers must have done.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Yes.

[Robert Krulwich]

Putting it in the past tense with respect.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Well, and if you haven't, that's okay too. This is the time to do it. It's the season of giving and the moment is here. You've heard how people connect and give to each other on this episode in big and small ways. And we hope you're inspired and that you make a gift in whatever amount works for you. But we ask you to please do it now.

[Robert Krulwich]

It's very easy. It's very important. You go to radiolab.org donatetogive and there's also a text option as well. You just text the word Radiolab to 69866 that gets you started and you'll be able to complete your donation in a matter of, I would just say, seconds.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Thanks for joining us. Thanks, Robert.

[Robert Krulwich]

Thank you. Foreign. Sam.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

NYC now delivers breaking news, top headlines and in depth coverage from WNYC and Gothamist every morning, midday and evening.

[Terry Babcock Loomis]

By sponsoring our programming, you'll reach a.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Community of passionate listeners in an uncluttered audio experience. Visit sponsorship.wnyc.org to learn more.