Radiolab – "La Mancha Screwjob" (Feb 24, 2015)

Hosts: Jad Abumrad & Robert Krulwich
Produced by: WNYC Studios

Episode Overview

This episode of Radiolab dives deep into the idea of authenticity, reality versus fiction, and how blurred boundaries both fascinate and disturb people—using two main cultural touchstones: the infamous Montreal Screwjob in professional wrestling, and the literary masterpiece Don Quixote. The discussion explores how these moments (one in wrestling, another in literature) question what’s real, what’s staged, and why audiences are drawn to that tension.

Part I: The Montreal Screwjob & the Nature of “Truth” in Wrestling

Setting the Stage (01:57–04:03)

• Host Simon Adler, DJ Peter Rosenberg (Hot 97), and wrestling historian David Shoemaker join to discuss professional wrestling's unique blend of "fake" and "real".
• Quote (02:25, Peter Rosenberg):
  “If I’m tweeting about [wrestling], I get tweets that go, ‘You know it’s fake, right?’…Well, do I write you that when you tweet about your favorite movie?”

Who is Bret Hart? (04:11–09:21)

• Bret "Hitman" Hart is introduced as a legendary, technically brilliant wrestler—a “babyface” (good guy) who was admired for his artistry in the ring.
• Hart grew up surrounded by wrestling in the legendary Canadian Hart family, learning the business from childhood. He describes how even his father’s basement was a pro wrestling dojo—with even a bear as a pet!
• Quote (07:04, Peter Rosenberg):
  “My favorite among many is the bear that lived in their backyard during summers...Bret tells a story in his book about just sitting there and letting the bear lick his toes.”

The Business Side: Bret Hart's Dilemma (09:40–12:19)

• By the mid-90s, Vince McMahon (WWF) is threatened by Ted Turner’s WCW, which offers Hart a huge contract. Bret is torn between loyalty and security.
• Clip from Wrestling with Shadows documentary gives intimate perspective on Brett’s anguish.
• Quote (10:19, Bret Hart):
  "You have to do what’s right for your family…but I found myself torn between trying to do the right thing for my family and at the same time, show my loyalties."

The Problem: How to Script a Departure? (12:19–15:09)

• Vince Russo (head writer) explains the pickle: Hart is still “the champ” and holds the title belt—symbol of the company's legitimacy.
• If he leaves and shows up on WCW with the belt, it's disastrous for WWF.
• Quote (13:29, Simon Adler):
  “It would be like LeBron James quitting his contract with Nike and then showing up in an Adidas commercial and taking a piss into a pair of Nikes.”

The Betrayal (15:09–23:39)

• THE MONTREAL SCREWJOB AT SURVIVOR SERIES (Nov 9, 1997)
  • Hart wants to finish clean; proposes a “schmoz” (draw), but Vince McMahon wants him to lose in Canada, to his hated rival, Shawn Michaels.
  • During the climactic match, a double-cross is executed live on TV: Michaels puts Hart in his own finishing move, the Sharpshooter, and the referee calls for the bell—ending the match and making Shawn champ against the script agreed to with Bret.
  • Classic reactions:
    • (21:44, David Shoemaker):
      “Confusion is an emotion that almost never exists in pro wrestling… Your eyeballs pop out of your head. But real confusion is one of the most compelling emotions of all.”
      • The crowd, Bret’s face, the chaos: it’s real and raw.
  • Bret spits in Vince's face (22:13) and destroys equipment—genuine rage.
  • Backstage, Bret punches Vince (23:17).

Aftermath: Wrestling Breaks the Fourth Wall (23:39–29:38)

• Next night on WWF TV, for the first time, Vince McMahon addresses the reality openly, shattering “kayfabe” (wrestling’s traditional commitment to never admitting it’s scripted).
  • (25:35–26:54, Vince McMahon):
    “Did you or did you not screw Bret Hart?.. I truly believe that Bret Hart screwed Bret Hart...It’s a time-honored tradition in the wrestling business...And Bret Hart didn’t want to honor that tradition.”
  • Vince emerges not as an announcer, but as the evil boss—becoming “Mr. McMahon,” the ultimate villain, which triggers pro wrestling’s biggest boom (the Attitude Era).
• Pro wrestling now injects flashes of “reality” into storylines—making fans constantly search for those authentic moments.
  • (28:09, Vince Russo):
    “The fans just want something true.”

Being a 'Smart Mark' (29:26–32:07)

• Wrestling develops "smart marks" (smarks): fans who love both the show and knowing how the show works (lingo: “work” = staged, “shoot” = real, “worked shoot” = staged realism).
• Quote (30:40, David Shoemaker):
  “Even if you know that it’s fake, there’s some point where the guys are really going at it...you’re just like, ‘Wow, maybe it’s real.’ ... That’s what makes wrestling so powerful…”

Reality and Performance Beyond Wrestling (32:08–34:52)

• The blending of real-life drama and storyline blurs lines across pop culture, e.g., DJ Andrew Marantz draws analogy to Fleetwood Mac performing breakup songs on stage.
• Quote (32:35, David Shoemaker):
  “There’s a part of the human brain that wants to be confused between those boundaries…to feel that confusion.”

The Aftermath for Bret Hart (34:52–35:52)

• Hart’s time at WCW never really takes off. In 1999, he suffers a career-ending concussion and, tragically, his brother Owen dies in a wrestling stunt.
• Quote (34:31, Bret Hart):
  “Anything you can possibly imagine is so pathetically meaningless when you relate to the real-life horror of what happened with my brother.”

Part II: Don Quixote and The Ancient Game of Authenticity

Wrestling, Authenticity & Literature (37:21–43:12)

• Enter Prof. Bruce Burningham (Illinois State/Wrestling scholar) to discuss the deep human fascination with authenticity.
• Robert and Jad debate if this fascination is contemporary or ancient; Bruce says it’s old, going back to Don Quixote (1605)—the first modern novel.

Don Quixote: The Original Meta-Narrative (38:32–45:00)

• Don Quixote intentionally blurs the lines between fiction and reality, with unreliable narrators, stories within stories, and even characters acknowledging their own stories’ fame.

• The sequel to Don Quixote has the protagonist hearing about himself as a character from the original bestseller; Cervantes even satirizes an unauthorized sequel appearing before his own.

  • (41:35, Bruce Burningham):
    “Sidi Ahmeti says this, but we all know that Arabs can’t be trusted. So, you know, take that for what that’s worth…”

  • (44:03, Bruce Burningham):
    “So the climax of that scene, which is just wonderful, is he forces this other character…to admit that the Don Quixote he knows from the Unauthorized Sequel is not the real one…”

Why Do We Love These Meta-Games? (45:00–49:09)

• These layered realities (“meta-narratives”) respond to moments of intellectual crisis, both in Cervantes’ era (upending of old certainties by science) and in ours (relativity, quantum physics, cognitive science).
• Quote (47:28, Bruce Burningham):
  “All of these things tell us that the world we think we see is not what it is. And I think that inspires people to then start asking…If what I’m seeing is not real, what is?”

The Deep Human Urge (49:09–49:53)

• Humans are unique in their fascination with “infinite regress” and layered realities—thinking about themselves thinking, and about worlds within worlds.
• (48:37, Bruce Burningham):
  “I think humans have this fascination with infinite regress and with embeddedness…”

Key Themes & Insights

• Blurring Reality and Fiction

  • Both pro wrestling and Don Quixote thrive on blending what's real and what's fiction, and that tension is endlessly fascinating.

• Audience Engagement

  • The search for “true moments” in the staged world of wrestling parallels readers’ delight in the narrative tricks of Don Quixote.

• Cultural Cycles

  • Our contemporary obsession with authenticity and meta-narrative is centuries old; it waxes and wanes in art, literature, and entertainment.

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Wrestling’s Truth Problem:

  • "Home. Now, if you're like me and you grew up in the 80s, you might remember wrestling as like, you know, Hulk Hogan versus Andre the Giant…well, according to Peter Rosenberg, there was a moment where wrestling started to sort of tinker with reality in a much more nuanced and fascinating way." — Jad Abumrad (02:59)
  • "The Montreal Screwjob was above anything else that had ever happened or that will ever, probably ever happen again, because it was utter reality transpiring right there in the ring." — David Shoemaker (03:42)
  • "It would be like LeBron James quitting his contract with Nike and then showing up in an Adidas commercial and taking a piss into a pair of Nikes." — Simon Adler (13:29)
  • "Confusion is an emotion that almost never exists in pro wrestling…But real confusion is one of the most compelling emotions of all." — David Shoemaker (21:44)

• On Vince McMahon Breaking Kayfabe:

  • "I truly believe that Bret Hart screwed Bret Hart...It’s a time-honored tradition in the wrestling business..." — Vince McMahon (25:35)

• On Pop Culture’s Blurred Boundaries:

  • “There’s a part of the human brain that wants to be confused between those boundaries, that wants to be slipping in between what’s real, what’s fake, to feel that confusion.” — David Shoemaker (32:35)

• From Literature:

  • "No [nothing like this had come before]. He's really sort of inventing this whole metanarrative game that is so popular today, the meta narrative." — Bruce Burningham (45:20)
  • “All of these things tell us that the world that we think we see is not what it is. And I think that inspires people to then start asking these questions. If what I'm seeing is not real, what is? Who am I?” — Bruce Burningham (47:28)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• [01:57–04:03] – Introductions; wrestling as real/fake tension
• [04:11–09:21] – Who is Bret Hart? His legacy and family
• [09:40–12:19] – Bret Hart's loyalty dilemma: WWF or WCW
• [12:19–15:09] – The problem: how to script Bret’s departure
• [15:09–23:39] – The Montreal Screwjob: The double-cross
• [23:39–29:38] – Aftermath: Vince McMahon breaks kayfabe, new wrestling epoch begins
• [29:26–32:07] – Smart marks, reality, and wrestling lingo
• [32:08–35:52] – Real-life drama in wrestling; the aftermath for Bret Hart
• [37:21–43:12] – Don Quixote, unreliable narrators, history of meta fiction
• [45:00–49:09] – Humans and the fascination with recursion and contingency

Tone and Style

• Radiolab's trademark: playful, intellectually curious, sound-bending storytelling
• Blend of enthusiastic pop-culture banter, deep-dive literary analysis, and personal reflection
• Mix of first-person memories, expert interviews, and archival audio

Summary Takeaway

Wrestling is more than fake fighting; it’s a mirror for our hunger for something real in a world of stories, tricks, and blurred boundaries—a centuries-old game that Cervantes was playing long before Vince McMahon. Whether it’s a scripted betrayal in the wrestling ring or a knight chasing windmills and wrestling with his own story, we’re fascinated by the dance between reality and fiction, the chase for true truth in a world of works and shoots, authors and readers.

Further Listening & Reading

• Wrestling with Shadows documentary (for more on Bret Hart & the Screwjob)
• Don Quixote by Miguel de Cervantes (for original meta-narrative madness)
• Grantland’s wrestling columns by David Shoemaker
• Interviews with Vince Russo and wrestling industry insiders

This summary omits ad reads, credits, and non-content sections to keep focus on the rich story and ideas at the episode’s core.