Lose Lose

Summary

Radiolab — “Lose Lose”

Date: December 30, 2016
Hosts: Robert Krulwich, Latif Nasser
Guest Reporter: Mike Pesca

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Episode Overview

In this episode of Radiolab, hosts Robert Krulwich and Latif Nasser—joined by sports reporter Mike Pesca—delve into the notorious 2012 Olympic badminton scandal where several teams competed to lose, rather than win, their matches. The story serves as a springboard to probe deeper questions about ethics, strategy, and the true spirit of competition. The episode unpacks the bizarre sporting event, the fallout for those involved, and the philosophical dilemmas it raises about competition itself.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing the Scandal: An Olympic Game Gone Awry

• Setting the Scene: Mike Pesca recounts his experience covering the 2012 London Olympics (02:13) and how a badminton match turned into a spectacle for all the wrong reasons.
• Misconceptions About Badminton: The hosts joke about Americans’ casual view of badminton, while Pesca stresses its intensity at the professional level:

  “It has nothing to do with the badminton you play in your backyard. It's much faster than you think..." (04:11, Mike Pesca)

2. The Match in Question: Both Sides Try to Lose

• Bizarre Gameplay: The Chinese and South Korean women's teams compete to lose, deliberately making unforced errors (06:15-10:00). The teams are incentivized by the tournament structure: the loser would face an easier opponent next.

  “Whoever wins this game is gonna have to play another Chinese team, a really strong team. And whoever loses is gonna play a way easier Danish team. So both teams are hoping to lose.” (08:06, Latif Nasser)

• Surreal Spectacle: Players intentionally hit shuttlecocks into the net or out of bounds as the audience boos and the match becomes comically inept.

  “So what you get is serve up... Oh, into the net. Point after point of just terrible badminton. And it just devolves into this absurd, repetitive, crazy-making lose-a-thon.” (09:08, Latif Nasser)

3. Intervention: The Referees and Fallout

• Referee’s Intervention: Olympic badminton referee Torsten Barrett describes confronting the players:

  “I told them that they were not playing seriously and they were making a very serious mistake. And they played stupid and said, no, we're playing, we're trying our best.” (10:51, Torsten Barrett)

• Players’ Perspectives: Audio clips with the athletes (Jung Kyung Un, Kim Ha Na, Wang Xiaoli) detail their feelings: surprise, embarrassment, and pressure.

  “What we didn’t expect, South Korea would do the same thing.” (11:31, Wang Xiaoli)
  “We just wanted to get out of the court as soon as possible.” (11:57, Kim Ha Na)

• The Black Card: Barrett brandishes a black card (12:40), threatening (or possibly delivering) disqualification if the teams don’t try to play seriously:

  “And I told them in very clear words and very seriously that in order to help themselves, they better play now.” (13:09, Torsten Barrett)

• The Attempt at 'Cover Up Badminton': The match resumes with slightly more effort, but both teams continue to subtly underperform while trying to disguise it:

  “They're not just trying to lose, they're trying to cover up badminton. You're trying to lose, but you're trying to look like you're trying to win.” (14:54, Latif Nasser)

4. Aftermath: Disqualification and Emotional Cost

• The Final Outcome: Both teams are ultimately disqualified for “failing to use best efforts,” according to Olympic and Badminton World Federation rules (16:09):

  “At that time, the punishment hit me quite hard. I was very sad and I felt helpless... We just cried.” (16:45, Kim Ha Na)

• Wider Impact: Multiple players, from multiple countries, are disqualified in related matches; the event becomes a global scandal.

5. Is This Cheating? Ethics, Strategy, and the Olympic Ideal

• Debate on Ethics: Back from break, Mike Pesca challenges traditional views:

  “I question whether it’s even unethical. I think it’s ethical in a way. What the players did ... because they wanted to win the overall championship at all costs.” (20:14, Mike Pesca)

• Expert Insight: Chuck Klosterman, ethicist and sports writer, discusses why seeing athletes not try feels viscerally wrong:

  “For some reason it is disturbing to see athletes failing on purpose ... it sort of wrecks the entire idea of why we play sports at all.” (22:42, Chuck Klosterman)

• Olympic Ideals vs. Reality: The group questions whether rule systems or competitive frameworks sometimes make “losing” a rational choice—contradicting the “spirit of sport” or “Olympic oath” (21:56–22:30).

6. Thought Experiment: Compete to Lose

• Humorous Speculation: The hosts and guests speculate nonsensically about what it would mean for elite athletes to compete skillfully at losing—“photo-negative badminton”—and riff on what this would look like in other sports (24:15-25:25).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Mike Pesca on the sport's reality:

  "It has nothing to do with the badminton you play in the backyard. It's much faster than you think..." (04:11)

• Latif Nasser highlighting the ethical twist:

  "They invented a whole new sport which is the exact opposite of badminton. It is photo negative badminton." (10:18)

• Referee Torsten Barrett's disapproval:

  "This was not right...I told them that they were not playing seriously and they were making a very serious mistake." (10:42, 10:51)

• Kim Ha Na’s emotional aftermath:

  "At that time, the punishment hit me quite hard. I was very sad and I felt helpless... We just cried." (16:45)

• Chuck Klosterman on deeper impact:

  "It sort of wrecks the entire idea of why we play sports at all." (22:42)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 04:11 — Mike Pesca explains the real intensity of Olympic badminton
• 07:11 — First hints of deliberate losing; teams looking to coaches
• 08:06 — Tournament incentives explained
• 09:08 — Play devolves, fans and commentators react
• 10:51 — Referee confronts the teams
• 11:31–12:02 — Player interviews, emotions revealed
• 12:40–13:09 — The black card and referee's plea for fair play
• 14:54 — Teams try to mask their intentional losing (“cover up badminton”)
• 16:09 — Disqualification and the rules
• 20:14–21:27 — Pesca's critique of tournament structure
• 22:30–22:42 — Olympic ideal and why non-effort feels immoral

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Overall Tone and Style

• Tone: Wry, curious, and playful, with empathy when exploring emotional moments
• Approach: Blends lighthearted banter (about pronunciation, “backyard” badminton, and hypotheticals) with serious ethical consideration and the pathos of the athletes’ experience.
• Interview Style: Incorporates direct interviews with players and referees for personal insight, alongside commentary from writers and ethicists.

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Takeaways

• The infamous 2012 Olympic badminton match, where both sides attempted to lose, raises profound questions about sport, strategy, and ethics.
• The real failing, the hosts argue, was not with the athletes but with a tournament structure that made losing desirable.
• The emotions of the players, the shocked referees, and the disgusted audience underscore how deeply we care about effort, integrity, and the symbolism of the Olympics—even when the rules nudge competitors toward cynical decisions.

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For more, listen to the full episode or check out Mike Pesca’s podcast, The Gist.

Transcript

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[Latif Nasser]

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[Latif Nasser]

Oh, wait, you're listening.

[Radiolab Producer]

Okay.

[Kim Ha Na (Korean Badminton Player)]

All right.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay. All right. You're listening to Radiolab.

[Mike Pesca]

Radiolab from wnyc.

[Robert Krulwich]

Hi, I'm Robert Kwilowicz.

[Latif Nasser]

And I'm Latif Nasser.

[Robert Krulwich]

This is Radiolab. And today we're going to do something completely upside down and inside out.

[Latif Nasser]

Yes, it's a sports story, sort of.

[Robert Krulwich]

But like none you've ever heard. And therefore we found a reporter who is a sports reporter. Like none you've ever heard.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, I've been to a gym lately.

[Latif Nasser]

Mike Pesca, he's the host of the Gist podcast put up by Slate, formerly of npr, still sometimes works with npr. And now he's here telling the story to us. Yeah. And how did you even first hear about this? Were you covering it?

[Mike Pesca]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

So this is MORNING EDITION from NPR News. I'm Renee Montagne.

[Mike Pesca]

I was covering the 2012 Olympics for NPR.

[Latif Nasser]

Good morning. Hello. And I declare open the Games of.

[Mike Pesca]

London, the stories of the Olympics. You try to find your own stories that are obscure, but if there's a big story, you chase it. So in those Olympics, so for you.

[Latif Nasser]

What were the most notable achievements in the first week of the Games? Well, it's history of the best kind.

[Mike Pesca]

Microsoft's breaking the all time record, obviously.

[State Farm Advertiser]

So in over 100 years nobody's won.

[Torsten Barrett (Olympic Badminton Referee)]

As many medals at the Olympic Games.

[Mike Pesca]

And everyone knew that a Bolt.

[Torsten Barrett (Olympic Badminton Referee)]

Here comes.

[Latif Nasser]

You said Bolt.

[Mike Pesca]

And his record setting quest in the 100 would be huge.

[Torsten Barrett (Olympic Badminton Referee)]

Oh, he's returned his title in the most emphatic way.

[Robert Krulwich]

Brilliant.

[Mike Pesca]

But then this badminton story pops up and everyone rushes to figure out what the heck's going on with badminton.

[Latif Nasser]

Because the 2012 London Olympics badminton Tournament just. It took this somewhat obscure sport and it morphed it into this bizarro thought experiment about competition and integrity and what it means to win.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay.

[Mike Pesca]

But mostly I think that the player.

[Latif Nasser]

Although to be fair, Mike, he jumped on this story for very personal reasons.

[Mike Pesca]

As a New Yorker, I say a lot of words and they're mispronounced and the NPR audience would jump on them. But I always can say the N in badminton and get a lot of plaudits. So I'm attracted to badminton.

[Robert Krulwich]

What's the wrong way to say badminton?

[Mike Pesca]

Most people say badminton.

[Latif Nasser]

Badminton, like you're talking to some handwear.

[Mike Pesca]

At wintertime, like you're chastising a playful cat.

[Latif Nasser]

Right.

[Mike Pesca]

Badminton bad.

[Latif Nasser]

And then also, you know, you and I probably think of badminton as this backyard, fun, silly game. But according to Mike, no, this is anything but.

[Mike Pesca]

It has nothing to do with the badminton you play in your backyard. It's much faster than you think it would possibly look.

[Latif Nasser]

You get these players flying all over the court, stretching, reaching, diving.

[Mike Pesca]

The skill of the competitors is, you know, readily apparent.

[Latif Nasser]

This is pulsating badminton.

[Mike Pesca]

A shuttlecock is a funny thing, and perhaps not as impressive a thing as a tennis ball, but it looks, you know, a lot like tennis. And there's a lot of tension, severe pressure, and there's a lot of grunting. And it totally seems like every bit of a legitimate and highly skilled sport.

[Latif Nasser]

Wait, I'm going to start. Okay, so. So, Robert, so you haven't seen this yet, but I would like to show you something. Okay. This is an ad. Yeah, this. Okay. This is the game that is at the center of this whole story. Women's doubles group A, Women's doubles badminton. It is not a medal round. It's a. In the group play stage. There's a huge crowd here. Like, the place is packed.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

Please welcome, representing the People's Republic of.

[Mike Pesca (Intro)]

China, Wang Shaoli and Yuyang.

[Latif Nasser]

So these two teams come out. You got China, yellow and red uniforms, yellow shoes. So here come versus Korea, purple and white. Yeah. And let's just skip ahead here. All right, so here we go. Game on. This is the first serve. Korean serve. So the Korean player flicks her wrist, the shuttlecock goes over the net.

[Robert Krulwich]

China returns right into the net.

[Latif Nasser]

That was it. That was the whole thing.

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, that was just a.

[Latif Nasser]

All right, so Korea, second serve in Chinese return. And same thing again.

[Robert Krulwich]

It's the net again.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah. So the service is turned over. Now the Chinese are serving. Okay, China, Korea. China into the net again. Yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

This is not exactly scintillating, I just gotta tell you.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay, well, just watch this next point. So the Korean player serves it.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

It sails over the net. And then it goes, goes, goes, goes, goes. And the Chinese player clearly is right there. She has it. She then winds up just a slight bit. Like, you can see. It's like she has this deep ingrained muscle memory from years of doing this. She winds up, she's about to hit it, and then she stops, and the shuttlecock just plunks onto the floor inbounds point to Korea. And then, tellingly, she looks back at the back corner of the court where her coach is sitting.

[Robert Krulwich]

They both are.

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Yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

This is a fix. They're fixing this. Like this is.

[Latif Nasser]

Yes.

[Mike Pesca]

But there have been plenty of occasions where one side wants to lose, and it ain't hard to lose. And the more important thing is it ain't hard to get away with it.

[Latif Nasser]

Usually you wouldn't even notice it.

[Mike Pesca]

You know, it's the difference between a couple serves over the line, a couple balls into the net.

[Latif Nasser]

But in this case, as the match goes on, you start to realize it's very lethargic. Start from both case. The Korean players seem to be trying to lose, too. They're serving faults. Yeah. Yes.

[Torsten Barrett (Olympic Badminton Referee)]

They've got to get into rally, of course.

[Robert Krulwich]

But why would everybody be trying to lose like both sides?

[Latif Nasser]

Well, it's actually a strategy because the way the tournament is laid out, both these teams are gonna be moving on to the medal rounds. But whoever wins this game is gonna have to play another Chinese team, a really strong team.

[Robert Krulwich]

I see.

[Latif Nasser]

And whoever loses is gonna play a way easier Danish team. So both teams are hoping to lose.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. And it is the rare instance where you have both sides incentivized to lose that you get something that should be scored by Spike Jones. It's a little bit of a prisoner's dilemma. Right. Either side could lose, but when both.

[Latif Nasser]

Want to lose, it becomes this surreal waiting game.

[Mike Pesca]

Right.

[Latif Nasser]

You know who's going to crack first and score a point.

[Mike Pesca]

And so you got the best players.

[Latif Nasser]

In the world who just start hitting the shuttlecock out of bounds. They're surfing fault after Fault.

[Mike Pesca]

Faulting on purpose.

[Latif Nasser]

And they're just hitting the ball straight in the net.

[Mike Pesca]

Hitting the shuttlecock into the net.

[Latif Nasser]

I'm sorry. You know, it's blindingly obvious what's going on.

[Mike Pesca]

And you know, they're both trying to lose.

[Latif Nasser]

Sometimes they hit it below the net.

[Torsten Barrett (Olympic Badminton Referee)]

And that is unforgivable.

[Latif Nasser]

They're hitting it straight into the ground.

[Mike Pesca]

All but tripping over their own shoelaces purposefully.

[Latif Nasser]

And so what you get is serve up.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh, into the net.

[Latif Nasser]

Point after point of just terrible badminton. And it just devolves into this absurd, repetitive, crazy making lose a thon. This is an absolute disgrace.

[Robert Krulwich]

So obviously lame. I mean, this is not. This is not sport. This is.

[Latif Nasser]

But it is kind of a sport because. And this is why I really love it. At a certain point, these two teams have to start competing with each other to lose.

[Robert Krulwich]

What?

[Latif Nasser]

Let me play you this point. So China serves it. Korea hits it back, but it's going way out of bounds. Now, in a normal world, China would obviously let that fall so that they could take the point. But they lunge to save it, right? And they're hitting it back. Now, Korea. Then they are like, no, no, no, you know what? We're pretty sure we want it out of bounds. They hit it in the opposite direction, even further out of bounds. So now China goes to save it once again, but they don't get there in time. So the point goes to China actually didn't want. And the Koreans wanted the whole time.

[Robert Krulwich]

So what are you saying then?

[Latif Nasser]

Well, it's like they invented a whole new sport which is the exact opposite of badminton. It is photo negative badminton. But then towards the end of the first set, tournament referee has been called for. Out comes the referee. And here comes Torstenberg.

[Torsten Barrett (Olympic Badminton Referee)]

Hello, Torsten speaking.

[Latif Nasser]

Hi, how are you? Torsten Barrett was the head Olympic badminton referee who got that call.

[Torsten Barrett (Olympic Badminton Referee)]

And I also heard the spectators, so I went to watch. It looked pretty awful. This was not right.

[Latif Nasser]

The referee is pulling the players together.

[Torsten Barrett (Olympic Badminton Referee)]

And told them that they were not playing seriously and they were making a very serious mistake. And they played stupid and said, no, we're playing, we're trying our best.

[Latif Nasser]

We were actually able to get in touch with three of the four players in that match. Both Korean players, Jung Kyung Un and Kim Hana, and also one of the Chinese players, Wang Xiaoli. And Wang Xiaoli told me they were trying to lose in that match.

[Kim Ha Na (Korean Badminton Player)]

But what we didn't expect, South Korea would do the same thing.

[Latif Nasser]

And as for the Koreans, Jung Kyung Un said That they too were trying to lose, at least during certain moments in the game. But when the crowd started to boo and the ref came out, her partner.

[Kim Ha Na (Korean Badminton Player)]

Kim Ha Na said that I was surprised and embarrassed.

[Latif Nasser]

They were just scared.

[Kim Ha Na (Korean Badminton Player)]

We just wanted to get out of the court as soon as possible.

[Latif Nasser]

So Torsten walks off the court.

[Torsten Barrett (Olympic Badminton Referee)]

They went on court again.

[Latif Nasser]

And then the second serve after Torsten walks off the court, nothing but Nash. So for the next few points, it does not get much better.

[Torsten Barrett (Olympic Badminton Referee)]

No, it didn't look like world class Benton at all.

[Latif Nasser]

So the set comes to an end. Korea wins the set. And while the players are waiting on the sidelines, here comes the tournament referee again. Torsten comes back onto the court. He walks up to the players and he pulls out of his pocket almost subtly and shows to the players this black card.

[Torsten Barrett (Olympic Badminton Referee)]

The black card which means disqualification.

[Latif Nasser]

This is absolutely extraordinary. He has given both teams a black card or has he threatened them with a black card? I'm really not terribly sure. The players have returned to court.

[Torsten Barrett (Olympic Badminton Referee)]

It was now that they should play or they would be in deep. Sorry, maybe I shouldn't say so.

[Latif Nasser]

Josh.

[Robert Krulwich]

The black card says that pretty clearly.

[Torsten Barrett (Olympic Badminton Referee)]

The black card was out. And I told them in very clear words and very seriously that in order to help themselves, they better play. Now.

[Latif Nasser]

The Korean player, Jang Kyung Eun said that she turned to her partner.

[Kim Ha Na (Korean Badminton Player)]

And I told her, they're them and we are we. So let's just play and do our best.

[Latif Nasser]

The second set starts and pretty quick. China's Wang Xiaoli told me both sides.

[Kim Ha Na (Korean Badminton Player)]

Changed a little bit.

[Torsten Barrett (Olympic Badminton Referee)]

Instead of just serving into the net.

[Latif Nasser]

Things started to get better. A rally.

[Torsten Barrett (Olympic Badminton Referee)]

They would get the rally going.

[Latif Nasser]

But then as the points kept coming.

[Torsten Barrett (Olympic Badminton Referee)]

You started to notice like they were playing very slowly.

[Latif Nasser]

There's something still really off here.

[Torsten Barrett (Olympic Badminton Referee)]

They were not hitting the ball very hard.

[Latif Nasser]

Now, the Korean team wouldn't admit this, but Wang Xiao Lee said that both.

[Kim Ha Na (Korean Badminton Player)]

Teams didn't change the basic fact were.

[Latif Nasser]

Still trying to lose. Which I have to say is exactly what it looks like when you watch it. Because for the rest of the match, you get a bunch of these points where, like where just. They'll lob it super high, you know, as if to say, hey, smash it down on us. Take your point. Or they will, you know, hit it out of bounds and then facepalm, just, you know, practice their swing after they missed one. Just to say, oh, you know, my mechanics are off. I just gotta just practice this a few more times because it's like we've entered a whole Third iteration of this game where it's like they're not just trying to lose, they're trying to cover up badminton. Cover up badminton. You're trying to lose, but you're trying to look like you're trying to win.

[Robert Krulwich]

I don't think they're seeing anybody here. No.

[Latif Nasser]

So finally, after 20 long minutes of this, the Korean team loses the match. By winning it tonight has left me with a very nasty taste in the mouth. Tonight was not sport. It was a disgrace. Good night. So all four players walked off the court and Kim Ha Na told them.

[Kim Ha Na (Korean Badminton Player)]

It was not a pleasant winning at.

[Latif Nasser]

All, that her parents were in the audience that day. And afterwards they asked her what happened.

[Kim Ha Na (Korean Badminton Player)]

What happened and why, why do you have to get the booze from the audiences and. Etc. And I, I was, I was sad and felt defeated. So I didn't even want to talk to my mom. So I remember I just went to the hotel and had rest.

[Torsten Barrett (Olympic Badminton Referee)]

And the next morning at 8 o', clock, all four pairs in fact were disqualified according to the disciplinary regulations of the Badminton World Federation, which has a.

[Latif Nasser]

Rule on the books that you can be disqualified for failing to use your best efforts.

[Torsten Barrett (Olympic Badminton Referee)]

And the same evening they were on.

[Latif Nasser]

The train home, they were just thrown out of the Olympics.

[Kim Ha Na (Korean Badminton Player)]

A scandal at the Olympics.

[Latif Nasser]

This whole to do about the badminton players. Everyone was talking about some losers. Shuttlecocks were going out, Tippy tapping the shuttlecock into the net like a five year old in the backyard picnic. It was downright humiliating.

[Torsten Barrett (Olympic Badminton Referee)]

It was just sad that they were committing suicide in that tournament.

[Kim Ha Na (Korean Badminton Player)]

At that time. The punishment hit me quite hard. I was very sad and I felt helpless. I was perplexed and didn't know what happened. We just cried.

[Robert Krulwich]

This doesn't sound like it's getting any better.

[Latif Nasser]

No, but there's still more after the break.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay.

[Kim Ha Na (Korean Badminton Player)]

Hi, this is Neheleb from Hamburg, Germany. Radiolab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation Enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. More information About [e-mail].

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[Latif Nasser]

Neighbor, State Farm is there and we'll.

[State Farm Advertiser]

Help get you back in business. Like a good neighbor, State farm is there.

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[Robert Krulwich]

We're back. I'm Robert Krulwich.

[Latif Nasser]

And I'm Latif Nasser.

[Robert Krulwich]

This is Radiolab.

[Latif Nasser]

And when we left off, the Korean and Chinese women's badminton teams had just been disqualified, kicked out of the Olympics.

[Robert Krulwich]

So then what happened to the. With the players like Ru, what happened to them?

[Latif Nasser]

Well, all four of them did keep playing badminton professionally after this. Jung Kyung Un from Korea even went on to win the bronze in Rio. But at the time, this was a brutal punishment for all of them.

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, but you know, they did something wrong. This wasn't right. Right.

[Mike Pesca]

You know, I don't even. I question whether it's even unethical. I think it's ethical in a way. What they did, what the players did, I do, I think it's ethical.

[Latif Nasser]

How?

[Mike Pesca]

Okay, so is the definition of ethics in sports to. To win? Sure. Without cheating? Yes. Does that mean to win every point? No, not necessarily. You know, in baseball there's the thing called the intentional walk.

[Latif Nasser]

Sure.

[Mike Pesca]

In football, a Team will take a safety instead of punting and letting the other team score a touchdown. So this is a calculation where a point here or there is not as important as the whole. And the whole is the game. So okay, let's move back. Let's pan out a little more. I think an individual game is often lost. Look, we're not going to put our good starter here. We're going to manage the lineup because the goal is to win the championship. And the thing to remember about these players is if what we want is players who are hyper competitive and actually want to win at all costs, that's exactly why they were losing so badly. Because they wanted to win the overall championship at all costs. And the badminton federation had a set of rules that all but guarantee that this would happen.

[State Farm Advertiser]

Well, yeah, I mean it's stupid to have an event where people are trying to lose if that event is a sporting event. Especially at the apex of, you know, the only time people care about badminton it seems really.

[Latif Nasser]

So this is Chuck Klosterman. We called him in because he writes a lot about sports and also because he wrote the Ethicist column for the New York Times Magazine.

[State Farm Advertiser]

Now is this some kind of tragedy? Well, it's not, I guess unless badminton's really important to you than it probably is.

[Latif Nasser]

Well, in this case I think the thing that people got really upset about is this idea of the Olympic ideal. In the name of all the competitors, I promise that we shall take part in the Olympic Games, the athlete's oath, in the true spirit of sportsmanship for the glory of the sport and the honour of athletes. To transcend in the way that as a superb athlete you're transcending your humanity. But then also as like this representative of your country and I think it did poke a lot of people, like a lot of people did seemingly get kind of upset about it.

[State Farm Advertiser]

Well, yeah, I mean for some reason it is disturbing to see athletes failing on purpose. That just it seems to kind of like tap into some like a.

[Latif Nasser]

Feels immoral somehow.

[Torsten Barrett (Olympic Badminton Referee)]

Tonight has left me with a very.

[Latif Nasser]

Nasty taste of athletes. Yes.

[State Farm Advertiser]

Like I don't know if not trying in a sporting event is a moral question, but it feels that way when you see it happen.

[Latif Nasser]

That is unforgivable.

[State Farm Advertiser]

Here again, one of the interesting things about sports is that we watch these adults playing multi million dollar games but they're the same games that like a six year old or seven year old plays. So when you have a seven year old kid you would say it doesn't matter if you win or lose. It doesn't matter what happens. Just play hard. You don't have to succeed. It's the trying that matters. So when you see people at the highest level not trying, there's, it's almost. It sort of wrecks the entire idea of why we play sports at all. You know why if you're at a playground and two kids race across the playground to see who can get to the swing faster or whatever, like, that's like a biological thing. Maybe we are biologically driven to compete. So that's the baseline expectation of what we have of these badminton players, that they will try to compete.

[Robert Krulwich]

But it seems to me there's an opportunity here for true athleticism in a kind of topsy turvy way.

[Latif Nasser]

Flip it and reverse it.

[Robert Krulwich]

Flip it and reverse it and see if you can do that as well as you do the other one.

[State Farm Advertiser]

I mean, sports only work one way though. They don't work both ways. I mean, it would be, be like going to your wife and saying like, okay, you say you really love me, prove it by hating me in a creative way. Or to go to a great piano player and say like, if you're so awesome at playing piano, bang your fist against the keys in a way that I will be, you know, I will be sickened by.

[Robert Krulwich]

But if we take it out of matters of the heart and put it back on the field, what would be the most radical solution that you could imagine if your desire was to convincingly and astonishingly athletically lose the ball?

[State Farm Advertiser]

I suppose if they were both trying to do it in the most convincing way, it would be. That was not really the case here.

[Mike Pesca]

Well, I guess they, they never confronted it. How do you lose on purpose if the other side's also trying to lose on purpose? And I'm trying to think, there are some sports. So in football, let's say, in American football, let's say both sides wanted to lose. Well, here's how the sport would go. You can't make the other team score, but you can score a safety on yourself. So the quarterback would get the ball and start running towards zone, end zone. And then there'd be a jailbreak by the defense to tackle the quarterback before he got overtake him. Baseball is hard. You could hit the batter. That would be, that would be an interesting game.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

What, what about darts? Instead of aiming at the dartboard, just turning around and aiming at your opponent.

[Latif Nasser]

That's like the, that's like the baseball strategy.

[Mike Pesca]

How about the sport of bodybuilding? Think about the implications.

[Latif Nasser]

Bodybuild I would win that. I would win that.

[Lowe's Advertiser]

Would you?

[Latif Nasser]

I think I would win.

[Mike Pesca]

I see like a Will Ferrell movie out of this.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yes, that's what I've been thinking.

[Latif Nasser]

The loser.

[Mike Pesca]

We get to a point, our team. All right, this is what we need. You got to go out there.

[Latif Nasser]

No. And then there's a loser on the other team who's. Who's also very.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. Each other down, two losers.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then. And then.

[Robert Krulwich]

You can hear more of Mike Peska on his podcast, the Gist. More of Chuck Klosterman in his latest book. But what if we're wrong? Big thanks to all the players who talked to us and to those who helped us get those interviews. Joy Lee, Mi Kyung Kim, Yuni Kartika.

[Latif Nasser]

Thanks to Aparna Nancharla, who came in and helped us puzzle this whole match out. And in addition, a special thanks to Gracia Pauli. Gracia was on the Indonesian badminton team in those same Olympics. And an hour after the match we featured, she faced off against a different Korean team. All four players in that match were also disqualified for not using their best efforts to win. She really helped us understand what it was like to be in that situation.

[Robert Krulwich]

This story was produced by Matt kielty and Annie McKeown and Latif Nasser. I am Robert Krulwich.

[Latif Nasser]

And I'm Latif Nasser.

[Robert Krulwich]

And I guess that ends the game at this point.

[Latif Nasser]

Point.

[Mike Pesca]

Go to the next message.

[Latif Nasser]

Press six.

[Mike Pesca (Intro)]

Hi, it's Mike. I'm going to do this. It's possible that even though this is the fifth time I've said David Gabell wrong, but I'm going to do it once and I'm going to do it with an intro of myself. And here goes. Hi, this is Mike Pesca here to tell you that Radiolab is produced by Jad Abumra. Dylan Keefe is our director of sound design. Soren Wheeler is senior editor. Jamie York is our senior producer. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Brenna Farrell, David Cabell, Matt Kielty, Robert Krolwich, Annie McEwen, Lateef Nassar, Melissa O', Donnell, Arianne Wack and Molly Webster, with help from Tracy Hunt, Nyjar Farrell, Nojar Fatali, Phoebe Wang, Katie Ferguson, Alexandra Lee Young W Harry Fortuna, and Persia Verlin. Our fact checkers are Eva Dasher and Michelle Harris. Thanks.

[Mike Pesca]

Here's an idea I have. There's an old riddle, and it goes like this. A king talks to his two sons, two princes, and he says, here's what we're gonna do get those horses out of the stable. Here's what I want you to do. I want you to jump on your horses and ride to the city gate. Whichever horse gets to the city gate last, you're gonna inherit the fortune. Maybe he's a crazy king. So the two princes look at each other. They both think. And then they jump on their horses and they ride fast as they can. Why?

[Latif Nasser]

I don't know.

[Robert Krulwich]

To rein in their horses at the very last minute, jump off the horses and say, whoa. And then wait until the other one. I don't know.

[Latif Nasser]

Are they planning on just removing a section of the gate and then just smashing it up against the other horse?

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. No. That's terrible.

[Latif Nasser]

No. Okay.

[Mike Pesca]

You like the answer?

[Robert Krulwich]

What is the answer?

[Mike Pesca]

They jumped on each other's horse. They jumped on the other brother's horse. They maybe.

[Robert Krulwich]

Let me just think about that.

[Latif Nasser]

That was fun.

[Robert Krulwich]

The other source, of course, he said.

[Mike Pesca]

Whichever horse gets there last. So how.