Making a Monster

Summary

Radiolab Episode Summary: "Making a Monster"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Radiolab
• Hosts: Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser
• Producer: Rachel Cusick
• Episode: Making a Monster
• Release Date: June 16, 2025
• Description: Radiolab delves into deep, investigative explorations blending science, legal history, and personal narratives, all enhanced by innovative sound design.

---

Introduction: Rodney Fox's Ordeal

The episode opens with a harrowing recount of Rodney Fox's shark attack on December 8, 1963. Fox describes the moment he was assaulted by what he initially believed to be a train, only to realize it was a great white shark.

• Rodney Fox (00:51-02:10):

  "December 8, 1963, was the exact date. I was just drifting in really quietly with my gun in front of me, and I was just caressing the trigger, and I was just about to pull it... knocked me into the bottom, and then I was being hurled through the water faster than I'd ever, ever, ever swam."

This vivid description sets the stage for exploring the intricate relationship between humans and sharks.

Rodney's Survival and Immediate Aftermath

After the attack, Fox recounts his desperate fight for survival, emphasizing the physical and psychological toll it took on him.

• Rodney Fox (02:33-07:27):

  "Every rib in my chest broken... I had a temperature of 105. I couldn't lift my head off the pillow... I was watching this tick. I remember so much."

Fox's resilience is highlighted as he battles severe injuries, including a punctured lung and broken ribs, yet his determination to return to the ocean remains unwavering.

The Legacy of "Jaws" and Its Impact on Public Perception

A pivotal moment in the episode discusses the release of Steven Spielberg's "Jaws" and its profound influence on society's fear of sharks.

• Rodney Fox (24:00-26:27):

  "They were making a big budget shark film... they wanted to try and get some realistic footage in there... nobody knew it was Jaws at the time."

Contrary to expectations, "Jaws" used minimal actual shark footage, relying heavily on suspense and the iconic score to evoke fear.

• Chris Lowe, Professor of Marine Biology (24:42-25:08):

  "The best monster movies always work by withholding the thing that you're supposed to be frightened of... Once you see it, it's actually not quite as scary anymore."

This approach amplified public fear by allowing imaginations to fill in the gaps, contrasting with Fox's firsthand experience of the majestic creature.

Statistics: Sharks vs. Common Dangers

To contextualize the real threat sharks pose, the episode presents alarming statistics that juxtapose the rarity of shark attacks against everyday dangers.

• Lulu Miller (12:38-13:12):

  "Seven confirmed fatalities from sharks last year... things that will kill more humans than sharks every year... rip currents, water itself, skin cancer."

This segment demystifies the exaggerated fear of sharks, highlighting that they are responsible for significantly fewer deaths compared to other hazards.

• Lulu Miller (13:26-14:37):

  "Psychologists have done studies where they've shown babies pictures of snakes and spiders, and they react with fear. Then they show him a picture of a shark, and there's no reaction."

Expert Jeffrey Cohen explains that unlike other predators, sharks do not evoke an innate fear response, pointing to the influence of cultural narratives like "Jaws."

Overcoming Fear: Rodney's Journey Back to the Ocean

Driven by his love for the sea, Rodney Fox embarks on a mission to conquer his trauma and reshape the narrative around sharks.

• Rodney Fox (20:03-23:18):

  "I thought, well, maybe I could reverse the role... build a shark cage... I saw shadows drifting past... the shark didn't take any notice of me in the cage at all."

By constructing one of the first shark cages, Fox not only faced his fears but also facilitated more respectful and scientific interactions with these predators.

Rodney's Contribution to Shark Understanding and Media Representation

Fox's collaboration with filmmakers, including the creators of "Jaws," had unintended consequences that fueled widespread fear of sharks.

• Rodney Fox (26:07-26:27):

  "I had no idea at the time that was going to frighten so many people out of the water... I wanted to get people to understand sharks better. This made them hate sharks."

The episode underscores the irony of Fox's intentions versus the public reception, where the depiction of sharks as relentless killers overshadowed their true nature.

Conclusion: Redefining the Shark Narrative

"Making a Monster" culminates with Fox's ongoing efforts to educate and transform perceptions, advocating for a balanced understanding of sharks as both predators and essential marine beings.

• Rodney Fox (23:18-23:42):

  "Generally sharks don't like humans... the beauty of it was so intense."

Fox's story serves as a powerful reminder of the importance of firsthand experiences and scientific understanding in combating unfounded fears.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Rodney Fox (02:10):

  "It's a funny thing, you know, I thought I'd been hit by a train... knocked me into the bottom, and then I was being hurled through the water faster than I'd ever, ever, ever swam."

• Lulu Miller (12:52):

  "Seven confirmed fatalities from sharks last year."

• Chris Lowe (24:56):

  "The best monster movies always work by withholding the thing that you're supposed to be frightened of."

• Rodney Fox (26:07):

  "I wanted to get people to understand and, like sharks better. This made them hate sharks."

Key Themes and Insights

• Human vs. Shark Perception: The episode delves into how media, particularly "Jaws," has shaped societal fears, contrasting them with the actual behavior and rarity of shark attacks.

• Resilience and Overcoming Fear: Rodney Fox's personal journey highlights the human capacity to confront and transcend deep-seated fears through understanding and experience.

• Role of Media in Shaping Narratives: The collaboration between Fox and filmmakers illustrates the profound impact storytelling can have on public perception, sometimes contrary to original intentions.

• Statistical Reality vs. Cultural Myth: By presenting stark statistics, Radiolab emphasizes the disparity between perceived and actual dangers posed by sharks, advocating for a more informed approach.

Concluding Thoughts

"Making a Monster" is a compelling exploration of fear, media influence, and personal resilience. Through Rodney Fox's harrowing yet inspiring story, Radiolab challenges listeners to reconsider their perceptions of sharks, urging a balance between respect and understanding over fear and misconception.

Transcript

[Earthjustice Ad]

WNYC Studios is supported by Earthjustice. As a national legal nonprofit, Earthjustice has more than 200 full time lawyers who fight for a healthy environment. They wield the power of the law to protect people's health, preserve magnificent places and wildlife, and advance clean energy to combat climate change. Earthjustice fights in court because the Earth needs a good lawyer.

[Latif Nasser]

Learn [e-mail] Radiolab is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.

[Earthjustice Ad]

Wait, you're listening.

[Rachel Cusick]

Okay.

[Rodney Fox]

All right.

[Rachel Cusick]

Okay.

[Rodney Fox]

All right.

[Rachel Cusick]

You're listening to Radio Lab.

[Lulu Miller]

Radio lab from WNYC.

[Rodney Fox]

December 8, 1963, was the exact date. I was just drifting in really quietly with my gun in front of me, and I was just caressing the trigger, and I was just about to pull it. It's a funny thing, you know, I thought I'd been hit by a train, but. And I don't know, I'd never been on a train, but it was such a big, powerful whack. Knocked the mask off my face, knocked the gun out of my hand, thumped me into the bottom, and then I was being hurled through the water faster than I'd ever, ever, ever swam.

[Lulu Miller]

This is Radiolab. I'm Lulu Miller.

[Latif Nasser]

And I'm Latif Nasser. And that voice was Rodney Fox, who.

[Lulu Miller]

Our producer, Rachel Cusick, talked to. Why, Rach?

[Rachel Cusick]

Yeah, so I went to go visit Rodney because for people like me who love the ocean, his story is something that I try to tell myself would never happen. But it did.

[Rodney Fox]

Of course, it couldn't be a train. I had to be a shark, a big shark. And instinctively, I gouged around its head with my fingers. My arm went into its mouth, over its teeth and ripped. And the shark seemed to let me go and I fell out of its mouth where my chest was in its teeth. And I instinctively pushed it away. And then I realized I'm still holding my breath 60ft underwater and I'm going to drown. So I headed straight up towards the surf.

[Rachel Cusick]

Rodney makes it to the top, takes a huge gasp of air.

[Rodney Fox]

But then I looked down, and there, through pink water, which I realized was my blood, there was this great big head, these big white teeth coming with a mouth wide open, straight towards me.

[Rachel Cusick]

And just before the shark got to.

[Rodney Fox]

Him, Bang and crash.

[Rachel Cusick]

It turned, grabbed these fish Rodney had tied to his belt and dragged Rodney.

[Rodney Fox]

Rodney back down deeper, deeper and deeper. And then a miracle happened. The line snapped.

[Rachel Cusick]

And Rodney began floating up towards the surface like a leaf.

[Rodney Fox]

Drops down from a tree in a waving sort of a way.

[Rachel Cusick]

Rodney gets to the surface, there's blood everywhere. And he shouts for help.

[Rodney Fox]

Yo, that chalk shock. And a boat came over. They dragged me into the boat and raced me to shore.

[Rachel Cusick]

So the reason I went to go talk to Rodney is because this Friday is the 50th anniversary of the movie.

[Rodney Fox]

There is a creature alive today, Jaws, who has survived millions of years of evolution.

[Rachel Cusick]

The original summer blockbuster, but also a movie that taught the nation, if not the world, to be terrified of sharks.

[Rodney Fox]

It lives to kill.

[Rachel Cusick]

It's the seed that bloomed countless nightmares.

[Chris Lowe]

A mindless eating machine.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah.

[Rachel Cusick]

Yeah. And I mean, like, I'm in the ocean all the time. Like, I'm a volunteer lifeguard. I do open water swimming. I surf. Like, an absurd amount of my life is built around the ocean. And I realized, though, like, the only. The only time I think about sharks is when I think about shark attacks. And I didn't know anything about sharks. And so I called you guys up because you're kind of the only ones who answer these kinds of calls that I make. And I was like, let's do some shark stories.

[Latif Nasser]

And then you came back with a school of stories.

[Rachel Cusick]

I brought back quite a haul.

[Lulu Miller]

Brought back so much. We were like, you know what? We're not doing a shark episode.

[Latif Nasser]

We're doing a week of Shark. A non trademark infringing week of shark. Completely different than Shark Week, of course.

[Lulu Miller]

Absolutely. It's a different thing. We have got a shark story coming every day this week, starting this morning. Some are scary, some are beautiful, some are adorable. We got sharks that fly, sharks that glow in the dark, sharks that might cure cancer.

[Latif Nasser]

And we're gonna start with the great white shark. Not only the shark from Jaws, it's also the shark that attacked our guy, Rodney Fox at the beginning of this episode.

[Rachel Cusick]

Yeah. And the reason we're actually starting with Rodney's story and the story of this shark is not just because it's my literal drop dead nightmare, but because his story and how he responded to this attack afterwards, it is intimately tied up in our collective fear of sharks.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay, so go on, what happens?

[Rachel Cusick]

So Rodney gets to the hospital, and the doctors are like, dear God, this guy is a mess. I actually got to see the wetsuit he was wearing at the time. There's just a giant slash. Someone took a bread knife and sliced him in half. Rodney had lost a huge amount of blood.

[Rodney Fox]

Every rib in my chest broken.

[Rachel Cusick]

The tendons in his hand were severed.

[Rodney Fox]

Lung punctured as well.

[Rachel Cusick]

I mean, he really almost died. But obviously he's here. He didn't.

[Rodney Fox]

I woke up. I didn't know whether I was in heaven or hell. Thank goodness the walls weren't painted black.

[Rachel Cusick]

He was alive, but he was in really rough shape.

[Rodney Fox]

I had a temperature of 105. I couldn't lift my head off the pillow.

[Rachel Cusick]

He was in a ton of pa. Horrific.

[Rodney Fox]

It was just unbelievable.

[Rachel Cusick]

Says he would just lay there in bed, his eyes fixed on this big clock on the wall, and you could.

[Rodney Fox]

See the second hand tick, tick, tick. I was watching this tick. I remember so much.

[Rachel Cusick]

He was in the hospital for a week, then two, then three. And then at some point, he had what I would consider to be kind of a baffling thought.

[Rodney Fox]

Of all the things in the world. I love my family first. And I would never give up diving.

[Rachel Cusick]

I want to get back in the water.

[Rodney Fox]

What? Why?

[Rachel Cusick]

Yeah. Well, so Rodney had always loved the ocean. He would go fishing with his dad, and his dad would always just be pulling these fish out of the water. But when Rodney was, like, 10 or 11, he decided he wanted to see what was down there for himself.

[Rodney Fox]

I decided. I'd heard about masks, and I made my own mask.

[Rachel Cusick]

This was before you could just go to the store and buy a pair of goggles. So Rodney found, like, a tube from.

[Rodney Fox]

A tire, and I got some glass.

[Rachel Cusick]

He strapped it around his face.

[Rodney Fox]

What's the wrong size for my head? It was rough as guts.

[Rachel Cusick]

And he jumped in.

[Rodney Fox]

I saw my first beautiful fish underwater. A boxfish.

[Rachel Cusick]

It was little, like, the size of.

[Rodney Fox]

A softball, really boxy body and a tiny little tail.

[Rachel Cusick]

It was just sort of levitating in front of him.

[Rodney Fox]

And colors. The colors were so bright orange with.

[Rachel Cusick]

Like, iridescent blue stripes and spots all over it.

[Rodney Fox]

And he was so cute. And I just never forget that first sight from underwater.

[Rachel Cusick]

Just imagine that when you've never seen a YouTube video of the ocean. There's no blue planet, no David Attenborough. Jacques Cousteau was still years away from doing his thing.

[Rodney Fox]

We really didn't know very much about the oceans.

[Rachel Cusick]

So seeing this fish and all these other fish swimming around down there, it.

[Rodney Fox]

Was like going to the moon. It still brings, you know, warm shivers to my heart.

[Rachel Cusick]

And then pretty much as soon as it was there, his goggles fall apart. Water rushes in and it was gone. He got a glimpse, he had this little taste, but it got him hooked. Rodney started diving all the time and.

[Rodney Fox]

We never knew what we were going to see.

[Rachel Cusick]

By the time he was a teenager.

[Rodney Fox]

Goggles came for the first time. And my mother for Christmas brought me my first pair of goggles. And, ah, it was a new world.

[Rachel Cusick]

He started spearfishing with some friends, made.

[Rodney Fox]

A little club, it's called the Octopus Club.

[Rachel Cusick]

And by the time he was in.

[Rodney Fox]

His 20s, 23, 24 years of age.

[Rachel Cusick]

He'S entering competitions and we trained.

[Rodney Fox]

We used to run around the block together and we used to do push ups against each other.

[Rachel Cusick]

They'd practice holding their breath for as long as they could.

[Rodney Fox]

And this is a really bad thing. At the time I was droving an explosives truck and to practice I would hold my breath and count telegraph poles. I could have blacked out.

[Rachel Cusick]

I would not have wanted to be on the road behind you that day.

[Rodney Fox]

No, no.

[Rachel Cusick]

Rodney says he loved the fishing and the competition, but really it was all an excuse to just go down there and look at stuff.

[Rodney Fox]

The beauty of the underwater scenery was so intense.

[Rachel Cusick]

And so after the shark attack, when people would come up to him and.

[Rodney Fox]

Say, give up diving and never go back in the water again, he thought.

[Rachel Cusick]

Are you kidding me? And never see that beautiful world again? No way.

[Rodney Fox]

My first day back in the water was only like four, three or four months after my attack. And it was the first outing by all the clubs again down at a local beach where they were going snorkeling. My wife actually paddled me out on a big surfboard in the middle of all these other 10 or 15 heads of divers going up and down on this reef. And I went into the middle of them because I thought, the shark won't be there. And I put my mask on and the funny thing happened, the sun shining on all of the. Some ripplets of the water were sending diamonds down into the sea. And I saw them as all the sharks and I said they were all coming at me.

[Rachel Cusick]

And so he pops out of the.

[Rodney Fox]

Water and I shook my heads and all the sharks went away.

[Rachel Cusick]

But this experience, this day, really rocked him. He wants to be there. He loves the ocean more than anything. Yeah, but he's still so afraid. He's in this, like, fight with his mind.

[Rodney Fox]

If you look at the statistics of it all, how many people are actually killed or bitten per year, it's quite minimal to the amount of people that go diving out in the water.

[Rachel Cusick]

Like Lulu, if you had to guess for 2024 last year. Do you want to guess, like, how many people died from shark attacks around the world?

[Lulu Miller]

How many people died?

[Rachel Cusick]

Yes.

[Lulu Miller]

I don't know, like, maybe 970.

[Rachel Cusick]

Okay, so take that number and subtract 963.

[Lulu Miller]

Seven. So seven. Seven people. Singular people.

[Rachel Cusick]

Seven confirmed fatalities from sharks last year. So just to put that into perspective, these are a few of the things that will kill more humans than sharks every year. Okay, so at the beach alone, the things that are way more likely to get you at the beach are rip currents, water itself. Water itself.

[Lulu Miller]

Okay.

[Rachel Cusick]

Skin cancer, Huge one. And actually, actually, surprisingly, holes that little kids dig in the sand. Really? Actually, those holes are about as likely to kill you as a shark. And those are just at the beach. Okay, zoom out a little bit.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah.

[Rachel Cusick]

Lightning strikes are more. Fewer than sharks. Yeah. 24,000 people a year, apparently. Selfies.

[Lulu Miller]

That's so sad.

[Rachel Cusick]

It's a really bad way to go.

[Lulu Miller]

Okay, so you're saying, like, wait, sorry.

[Rodney Fox]

One more, one more.

[Rachel Cusick]

The one stat that I just love as a New Yorker is that you are ten times more likely to be bitten by a New Yorker than you are to be bitten by a shark.

[Lulu Miller]

Which I kind of honestly stags me. I get that. I get that. Okay, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but sharks, man, like, they are so fast and so big and like, I can hear these statistics. But if we're at the beach and you tell me there are sharks in the water, I'm not gonna go in. Could it be analogous to a snake kind of fear where it's just like. Or I don't happen to have it. But a spider fear, where it's like, we come out ready to be afraid of these things because it would have served us.

[Rodney Fox]

Yeah.

[Rachel Cusick]

Well, according to the scientist I spoke to, named Chris Lowe, professor of marine.

[Jeffrey Cohen]

Biology and the director of the shark lab at Cal State Long beach, that.

[Rachel Cusick]

Is totally true for some animals.

[Jeffrey Cohen]

There are land animals that we co evolve with that we have innate fear.

[Rachel Cusick]

But not for sharks.

[Jeffrey Cohen]

Psychologists have done studies where they've shown babies pictures of snakes and spiders, and they react with fear. Then they show him a picture of a shark, and there's no reaction.

[Rachel Cusick]

Really?

[Jeffrey Cohen]

Yeah.

[Rachel Cusick]

Chris pointed out the obvious fact that.

[Jeffrey Cohen]

We'Re not an aquatic animal.

[Rachel Cusick]

For most of human history, people had very few interactions with sharks.

[Jeffrey Cohen]

It was this beast that people were told about that they rarely get to see.

[Rachel Cusick]

And Chris says, when all you have.

[Jeffrey Cohen]

Are stories, what happens is it allows people's imaginations to take over.

[Rachel Cusick]

Like, we didn't have goggles until like the 1950s. So we didn't. We knew that things were taking us. We never actually ever saw these creatures. Like, the most we might see is the fin.

[Jeffrey Cohen]

We're given a few pieces of information and then we begin to develop this image of what these animals are like. We make the monster in our head.

[Rachel Cusick]

And in a way, that is exactly what was happening for Rodney. Like, yes, he had been attacked, but what he really feared was, was what he couldn't see.

[Rodney Fox]

You have no idea if there's a shark within 10 metres or within 10 miles. And so you give the sharks the benefit of the doubt and you think they could be right there waiting for me. And it's really one of those things that you have to mentally overcome.

[Rachel Cusick]

Which is what Rodney's gonna try to do right after we take a quick break.

[Latif Nasser]

Radiolab is supported by Capital One. Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. He'd also tell you that Radiolab is his favorite podcast too. Oh, really? Thanks, Capital One Bank Guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com bank Capital One NA member.

[Earthjustice Ad]

FDIC WNYC Studios is supported by Earthjustice. As a national legal nonprofit, Earthjustice has more than 200 full time lawyers who fight for a healthy environment. They wield the power of the law to protect people's health, preserve magnificent places and wildlife, and advance clean energy to combat climate change. Earthjustice fights in court because the earth needs a good lawyer. Learn [e-mail] this is an ad by BetterHelp.

[Lulu Miller]

You know, being a good guy, being I guess a man today is sort of a never ending act of recalibration. It is a wonderful, noble challenge, but a challenge nonetheless. We've got to be strong but vulnerable to be able to lead, but also listen. We are told at times to protect, but know that we should never control. I mean, it can be confusing. So it's no wonder that 6 million men in the US suffer from depression every year, often undiagnosed. And I guess I'm just here to say, well, talking to someone, it can help. I have had some wonderful therapists over the years. They have helped me in many ways to be less reactive, to be more aware, to be a better partner, a better friend. So if you're looking for someone to talk to betterhelp is a great place to start. With over 35,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 5 million people globally. It is convenient. You can join a session with the click of a button and you can switch therapists at any time. So to give therapy a try and to get 10% off your first month, go to betterhelp.com Radiolab that's BetterHelp. H E L P.com Radiolab.

[Latif Nasser]

Radiolab is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. Lulu Latif Rachel Radiolab and we're back with the story of Rodney Fox. A man who was brutally attacked by a great white shark. Desperately wants to get back in the water, but is terrified of being attacked again.

[Rodney Fox]

Seven or eight months after my shark attack, my wife took my young niece into the zoo. Logical gardens in town for a wander around. And as we were looking at the different animals, we came across the lion's cage. And as we walked up to the lion's cage, it started to roar. You know lions, when they roar, it starts back at their tail and it goes right up through their body, up through their chest and out through their mouth and they roar. It's incredible. It really takes you over and shakes.

[Rachel Cusick]

You and it strikes Rodney like, oh, these lions are kind of man eaters. Exactly like sharks with his mouth wide.

[Rodney Fox]

Open, big white teeth there.

[Rachel Cusick]

But when I can look at it in a cage, it feels safe.

[Rodney Fox]

And I thought, well, maybe I could reverse the role. Maybe I could get in the cage myself and drop the cage over the side where some sharks are, and I can have a look at these great whites. Make up my own mind if I want to go diving with them again.

[Rachel Cusick]

And so again, Rodney cobbled together some.

[Rodney Fox]

Materials, a steel mesh that they made for putting in concrete, and built a shark cage, a two man cage that we could stand in with little holes in the front that you could look out and maybe put your camera out from.

[Latif Nasser]

Oh, so like this is the shark cage, like that you see on National Geographic or whatever?

[Rachel Cusick]

Yeah, yeah. But actually Rodney is one of the first people to make and use a shark cage like that. So for him, this was like this original idea to overcome his fear.

[Latif Nasser]

Huh.

[Rachel Cusick]

So Rodney has his cage and then he Decides he wants to try it out. So he finds a boat, gets a crew together.

[Rodney Fox]

And so we went out on this trip and they took the boat out.

[Rachel Cusick]

To this place called Dangerous Reef for a reason.

[Lulu Miller]

Great name.

[Rachel Cusick]

A little bit of a great white hotspot. They, they head out to these waters and eventually they see a fin. So Rodney rigs up this cage, lowered.

[Rodney Fox]

It over the side, jumped in the.

[Rachel Cusick]

Cage, and then he's just waiting, peering out into the dark water. Some fish start by the sunlight flashing off their scales. And then he says, I was looking.

[Rodney Fox]

And I just saw shadows drifting past.

[Rachel Cusick]

The back of the boat.

[Rodney Fox]

Just shadows down the end now and again. And then all of a sudden I turn to my right and there's this submarine swimming pass with eyes. And it swam only about 3 meters or 10ft in front of me and almost looked like it was man made because it was so big.

[Rachel Cusick]

Rodney feels himself recoil.

[Rodney Fox]

I move to the back of the.

[Rachel Cusick]

Cage and with his back pressed against the back of the cage, he looks at the shark for the first time. Just stares at it.

[Rodney Fox]

This great big silver gray great white shark.

[Rachel Cusick]

And he's staring at it, he realizes the shark is not even really looking at him.

[Rodney Fox]

It didn't take any notice of me in the cage at all. It just was more interested in the fish. And that certainly was a big help for me.

[Rachel Cusick]

After that first day in the cage, Rodney found that it got easier and easier to return to the ocean.

[Rodney Fox]

Spent thousands of hours in the water.

[Rachel Cusick]

His fear of being attacked, it never completely went away.

[Rodney Fox]

But if I had worries about sharks, he would just tell himself, generally sharks don't like humans.

[Rachel Cusick]

And he'd think about how indifferent that shark was to him when he was in the cage. And not only that, like how beautiful it was. And so pretty soon he started sharing that experience with other people. Like they would call him up and say they wanted to go out and see the sharks too, because that was the only way you could see a great white shark.

[Rodney Fox]

Nobody had filmed or photographed great whites underwater.

[Rachel Cusick]

So Rodney started bringing filmmakers out there.

[Rodney Fox]

One from Italy and one from England.

[Rachel Cusick]

And more people want to see it and more people want to see it.

[Rodney Fox]

And I got this call from Hollywood.

[Rachel Cusick]

Somebody working with a 27 year old filmmaker named Steven Spielberg.

[Rodney Fox]

They were making a big budget shark film.

[Lulu Miller]

Oh, the Jaws people call him.

[Rachel Cusick]

Yes, yes.

[Rodney Fox]

Nobody knew it was Jaws at the time. They said they wanted to try and get some realistic footage in there. And I was pretty excited about this. And they wanted to come out for six weeks.

[Rachel Cusick]

So Rodney brought them out, and they shot hours and hours of footage. And then that crew, they went back to Hollywood, Fast forward a little while, and the movie comes out. And as we all know, monster shark, terrorizing beachgoers, hunting them down, never giving up. But the weird thing is, when you watch the movie, you really didn't see.

[Jeffrey Cohen]

A shark very often.

[Rachel Cusick]

You get an hour into the film without seeing a shark.

[Jeffrey Cohen]

Yeah, you really don't see a lot of shark footage in that movie.

[Rachel Cusick]

Chris Lowe, again, the shark scientist from before.

[Jeffrey Cohen]

And I think that was actually the brilliance in the movie.

[Chris Lowe]

The best monster movies always work by withholding the. The thing that you're supposed to be frightened of. And that really amplifies fear by causing this cognitive uncertainty. What is it? What can it do?

[Rachel Cusick]

This is Jeffrey Cohen, professor of English.

[Chris Lowe]

And dean of humanities at Arizona State.

[Rachel Cusick]

University, and he studies monster stories.

[Chris Lowe]

Godzilla, Frankenstein, vampire movies, you name it.

[Rachel Cusick]

And he says, in all of these.

[Chris Lowe]

Stories, it's really when the monster is continually just at the edge of vision. Those are the moments that just keep you on edge. And that is one of the reasons I think Jaws is so effective. It waits.

[Rachel Cusick]

Instead of showing you the shark, you just hear that iconic score, and you.

[Chris Lowe]

Very quickly learn in that film that the soundtrack takes the place in the monster. Once you see it, it's actually not quite as scary anymore, which is kind.

[Rachel Cusick]

Of like the exact thing Rodney learned for himself when he went down into the cages and the thing he wanted to share with other people. And so when Rodney saw the movie, I was embarrassed.

[Rodney Fox]

I had no idea at the time that was going to frighten so many people out of the water. I didn't even tell people for 10 years that I really worked on it because it was totally against what I wanted to do. I wanted to get people to understand and, like sharks better. This made them hate sharks.

[Rachel Cusick]

Well, yeah.

[Lulu Miller]

I mean, it's like he invented this whole contraption to see it more clearly and then ended up being complicit in this kind of, like, infection in our minds, of seeing it as something so scary.

[Rachel Cusick]

Yeah, like he was able to kind of, like, paint this masterpiece of a shark. And then we kind of wiped away all of these beautiful details, and all that was left was this outline of this creature that just feels so ominous. And that's not actually the version of the white shark that Rodney knows. It's just kind of the one that got handed to us. And so I decided I needed to see the shark Rodney wanted us to see for myself.

[Rodney Fox]

Okay, guys, welcome to the cave.

[Lulu Miller]

That's Tomorrow, on day two of our Week of Sharks.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah. Join us as we come face to face with what I think still is one of the scariest things in the ocean. This episode was reported and produced by Rachel Cusick with production and editing by Pat Walters, mixing help and sound design by Jeremy Bloom. And it was fact checked by Diane Kelly.

[Lulu Miller]

And one more thing. We want to give a huge thanks to everyone who supports supports Radiolab, especially right now, everyone who's a part of the Lab, our membership program. Your support makes big projects like this possible and we are so grateful.

[Latif Nasser]

And if you aren't a member yet or are thinking about giving more, this is the perfect time to take the plunge. Because if you join or re up now, you will receive a really cool gift.

[Lulu Miller]

A limited edition Week of Sharks hat designed by the awesome Maine based artist and surfer Ty Williams. It's so beautiful and fun and it gives you a chance to show the world you support public radio in the form of Radiolab and support Sharks.

[Latif Nasser]

It's available to everyone who joins the Lab this month, even for as little as seven bucks a month.

[Lulu Miller]

You can [e-mail] join existing members. Check your email for details and thank you so much.

[Latif Nasser]

This is Swimming with Shadows, a Radiolab Week of Sharks.

[Lulu Miller]

See you tomorrow.

[Keddie]

Hi, I'm Keddie and I'm from Berkeley, California and here are the staff credits. Radiolab was created by Jad Abumrad and is edited by Soren Wheeler. Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser are our co hosts. Dylan Keith is our director of Sound design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Bressler, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Rebecca Lacks, Maria Paz Gutierrez, Sindhu, Nyana Sambandhan, Matt Kielse, Annie McKeown, Alex Neeson, Sara Khari, Sarah Sambach, Anissa Vitza, Arianne Wack, Pat Walters, Molly Webster and Jessica Young, with help from Rebecca Ramsay. Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, Ana Puzol Mazzini and Natalie Middleton.

[Rachel Cusick]

Hi, I'm Daniel from Madrid. Leadership support from Radiolab. Science programming is provided by the Simons.

[Keddie]

Foundation and the John Turpento Foundation.

[Rachel Cusick]

Foundational support from Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Found.

[Multicare Ad]

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[Rodney Fox]

With McValue. At McDonald's, you don't just get deals on the drinks, you get deals on McDonald's drinks. So when you're breaking a sweat, embrace the chill without breaking the bank. And when your crew is running on empty, keep your wallet full while referring refreshing the squad.

[Rachel Cusick]

Get more than you expect on your favorite medium drinks like frozen Fanta, blue raspberry iced coffee or lemonade. Now at just $2.29. Price of participation may vary. Cannot be combined with any other offer.