Match Made in Marrow

Summary

Radiolab: “Match Made in Marrow”

Podcast: Radiolab (WNYC Studios)
Episode Date: November 10, 2017
Hosts: Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich
Guests: Janelle Jenny, Jim Monroe

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Episode Overview

“Match Made in Marrow” is an exploration of a truly remarkable human connection—a bone marrow donation between two strangers—and how vastly different meanings can be drawn from a single miraculous event. Janelle Jenny, an atheist photographer from Milwaukee, and Jim Monroe, a Christian magician from Texas, find themselves forever linked by a life-saving medical procedure. The episode follows their stories, from the unlikely circumstances that brought them together to their ongoing efforts to reconcile their sharply divergent worldviews, all while navigating what it means to be “the missing piece” in someone else’s life.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. How Janelle Came to Be a Donor

• The Random Encounter
  • Janelle attended a rock concert (Warped Tour) as a teenager, stumbling across a tent recruiting bone marrow donors (02:18).
  • She casually signed up:

    “I always thought that, you know, it would just be an amazing opportunity to be the one person who could do something for somebody that, like, literally no one else in the world could.” — Janelle Jenny (03:24)

• The Call
  • Six months later, she was identified as a possible match:

    “We’ve narrowed you down to be a preliminary match for a patient.” (04:31)

  • She proceeded without hesitation, eager to help and marveling at the possibility of being someone’s only lifeline (05:01).

2. Bone Marrow Donation: The Science and Experience

• Testing and Donation
  • Explains the medical and genetic prerequisites for a bone marrow match (05:15).
  • Janelle was the perfect match out of 8 million registrants—an extraordinarily rare occurrence (06:15).
  • She describes the donation process, which, unlike traditional bone marrow harvesting, involved boosting her white blood cell count through injections and then extracting stem cells via apheresis (07:13–08:17).

    "You pretty much sit still for six hours. They suck all your blood out, put it in a machine, and give you back what they don't need." — Janelle (08:00)

3. Jim’s Story: From Cancer to the Connection

• Background

  • Raised in California and Texas, former promising baseball pitcher whose career ended due to injury (12:07–12:57).
  • Transitioned to magic after being inspired by a trade show magician as a child (13:13–13:48).
  • Developed a creative and spiritual partnership with Tennyson, a fellow magician and Christian (13:13–15:24).

• Personal Tragedy and Crisis of Faith

  • Tennyson's ambiguous death devastated Jim, leading to depression, marriage strain, and a sense of spiritual void (16:36–17:11).
  • Soon after, Jim experienced excruciating leg pain that led to his leukemia diagnosis (17:31–17:47).

• Leukemia Diagnosis and Waiting for a Miracle

  • “Your bone is breaking on its own from the inside.” — Doctor to Jim (17:57)
  • Faced imminent death without a transplant; underwent painful chemo while waiting for a donor (18:11–18:38).
  • At the lowest point, Jim was told:

    “There’s one person that we’ve been able to identify on the planet… there’s one.” — Phone call to Jim (19:36)

4. The Spiritual and Symbolic Resonances

• Transplant as Rebirth

  • Jim received Janelle’s marrow three days after his own birthday, echoing resurrection imagery central in Christianity (22:09–22:41).
  • The donation is framed as a literal and spiritual "rebirth," which Jim experiences as a deeply personal miracle and affirmation of faith.

• Janelle’s Atheism

  • Despite being the “savior” in Jim’s personal narrative—and in his Christian stage show—Janelle does not share his religious convictions and finds herself playing a symbolic role she doesn’t believe in (35:02).

5. Aftermath: Public Advocacy and Divergent Narratives

• Jim’s Magic Show (“The Maze”)
  • Uses their story to evangelize at live events; includes the “rebirth” narrative, culminating in Janelle appearing on stage as his “savior” (31:46–37:26).
  • Janelle’s presence inspires massive sign-ups for bone marrow donation—hundreds per show (37:26–38:11).
• Janelle’s Internal Conflict
  • She begins to feel like an “imposter” for embodying a role in a faith tradition she does not share:

    “There was a part of me that felt a little bit of an imposter.” — Janelle (46:34)

  • The impact, however, leads her to keep participating, focusing on the tangible good being done.

6. Attempting Dialogue and Telling “Both Sides”

• The Live Conversation (St. Cloud, MN)
  • Facilitated by the Radiolab team, Janelle and Jim engage in a rare, vulnerable dialogue about what their experience means—differently—for each of them (45:21–60:40).
  • Janelle’s take: Simple “goodness”—capital G—sits above creed, and the chain of goodness is what matters most (48:49).
  • Jim’s perspective: Goodness is not enough—relationship with God is essential; but ultimate judgment is not his role (50:32, 57:09).

    “I'm not the one who is sent into the world to judge. … I’m not commanded to do anything but to love and to start conversations.” — Jim Monroe (57:09)

  • Both navigate the discomfort and affection of being each other’s “miracle” despite irreconcilable beliefs.

7. Chance or Design?

• Radiolab’s Investigation
  • Explores whether their connection was statistically likely or “miraculous,” using metaphors such as the golf ball landing on a blade of grass—improbable, but inevitable for someone (51:35–52:38).
  • For Jim, it’s multi-layered and more than just chance; for Janelle, it’s an awe-inspiring piece of randomness (53:02–54:33).

8. Finding Common Ground

• Humility, Grace, and Co-Existence
  • Both express the necessity of humility (“humus” = dirt) and mutual respect in living with both closeness and difference (58:56–60:40).
  • Neither tries to “win” the debate. Instead, they model how two people can be intimately connected while disagreeing on life’s biggest questions.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Being a Match:

  “You are the ideal person in this 8 million person registry to donate for this patient. You are a perfect match, and will you do it? And I was like, absolutely.” — Janelle Jenny (06:15)

• The Miracle Call:

  “There’s one person that we’ve been able to identify on the planet out of all the databases, everything, there’s one.” — Jim Monroe (19:36)

• On Feeling Like an Imposter:

  “There was a part of me that felt a little bit of an imposter.” — Janelle (46:34)

• Jim’s Perspective on Judgment:

  “I'm not commanded to do anything but to love and to start conversations.” — Jim Monroe (57:09)

• Janelle on “Big-G Goodness”:

  “At the very top is good with the capital G. And it’s underlined, too.” — Janelle Jenny (49:18)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• Janelle signs up at concert: 02:18–03:22
• Janelle gets the match call: 04:20–06:15
• Donation process described: 07:13–08:17
• Jim’s story: career, magic, crisis: 12:07–17:11
• Jim’s leukemia diagnosis: 17:31–17:57
• Jim gets the “miracle” call: 19:36–20:10
• Transplant and spiritual language: 22:09–22:41
• First meeting/awkwardness: 25:32–27:07
• Jim’s stage show explanation: 31:46–37:26
• Janelle’s “imposter” feeling: 38:44, 46:34
• Public dialogue: both perspectives: 45:21–60:40
• Radiolab on probability and meaning: 51:35–54:33

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Flow and Tone

• Compassionate, curious, and respectful.
• Ample humor and self-awareness, especially regarding cultural and religious divides.
• Deeply empathetic exploration of what it means to forge unlikely bonds—and to disagree with dignity.

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Takeaway

This episode is a luminous meditation on chance, faith, and the ties that bind us. At its heart are two people forced into closeness by biology and kept close by mutual respect, even though they see the universe—and the meaning of their own encounter—in completely different lights.

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Links & Resources Mentioned

• Be the Match Registry: Be The Match
• Jim’s Magic Show: What Is The Maze?

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For anyone considering joining the bone marrow registry, this episode is an inspiring reminder that anyone, at any time, could be the missing piece in someone else’s story.

Transcript

[Jim Monroe]

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[Jim Monroe]

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[Robert Krulwich]

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[Janelle Jenny]

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[Jad Abumrad]

Max $100 cash back per month. See terms at Venmo me stashterms. Oh, wait, you're listening. Okay.

[Janelle Jenny]

All right.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay. All right. You're listening to Radiolab Radio Lab from wny. See? Yep. Hey, I'm Jad Abumrad.

[Robert Krulwich]

I'm Robert Krulwich.

[Jad Abumrad]

This is Radiolab. So we got an email from you.

[Janelle Jenny]

Yes, you did.

[Robert Krulwich]

Not long ago, our editor, Soren Wheeler and I, we got into a conversation with this woman.

[Janelle Jenny]

I live in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

[Robert Krulwich]

Her name is Janelle. Jenny.

[Janelle Jenny]

I like the Packers.

[Jad Abumrad]

Of course you do.

[Janelle Jenny]

Yeah, I guess photographer would technically be my job, but I do a whole lot of different things, none of which really pertain to the story at hand. But that's.

[Jad Abumrad]

And our story really starts when Janelle sent an email to the Radiolab inbox, basically saying, I need your help.

[Janelle Jenny]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

Something had happened to her that was.

[Janelle Jenny]

Kind of wondrous and unexplainable and very weird.

[Jad Abumrad]

And as a result, Janelle had found herself stuck in a story, a story told to hundreds of thousands of people all across the country. A story that sits right smack dab in the middle of one of the biggest cultural divides in our country right now.

[Jim Monroe]

Good to see all of your faces.

[Jad Abumrad]

But it was a story that wasn't hers. And she wanted us to help her find a way to finally tell her.

[Janelle Jenny]

Story, so to speak. Do you want me to kind of just tell you? Sure. Well, When I was 18, I went to a concert, A rock concert. Yeah, it was actually. It was a warp tour. So it's like a festival of rock.

[Jad Abumrad]

Concerts and tons of bands on different stages all over the place. And Janelle is walking around between all the different stages and merchandise tables when she sees this tent, a 10 by.

[Janelle Jenny]

10 white tent with just the little.

[Jad Abumrad]

Table in front, a table with a.

[Janelle Jenny]

Sign on it that said, be a bone marrow donor. Sign up to be on the registry. Save a life. Something like that.

[Jad Abumrad]

So this was rock Music and good deeds brought together, essentially.

[Janelle Jenny]

Right. Which is a pretty good mix in hindsight.

[Jad Abumrad]

So Janelle read the sign, and she thought to herself, I'll sign up.

[Janelle Jenny]

Sure.

[Jad Abumrad]

Why not?

[Janelle Jenny]

Yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

Did you know what bone marrow was?

[Janelle Jenny]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

I mean, you knew that that would mean that they'd take a really long needle and stick it in you and suck out bone stuff.

[Janelle Jenny]

Yeah. I suppose at that point, that was probably not the forethought. I think the altruistic, like, trying to do something. Yeah. That was probably the main motivation.

[Jad Abumrad]

And all Janelle had to do, standing in front of that tent was sign some papers and swab her cheek. Because with a bone marrow donation, they actually have to figure out if you're a genetic match with someone who would receive the donation.

[Janelle Jenny]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

Which was part of what Janelle thought was cool about it.

[Janelle Jenny]

I always thought that, you know, it would just be an amazing opportunity to be the one person who could do something for somebody that, like, literally no one else in the world could.

[Jad Abumrad]

That's a deep kind of connection with someone there.

[Janelle Jenny]

Yeah. Yeah. There's. You know, I don't know if either of you are only children, but it's. Yeah. You know how there's just. Like, you have cousins, you've got friends, but at some point there's. Not that it sounds so stupid, but that biological connection, like, besides my parents.

[Robert Krulwich]

Or whatnot, that you. You missed the idea of someone who was muchly like you and muchly in your world and muchly.

[Janelle Jenny]

Yeah. And also, even the kind of. The need, like somebody out there dependent on me on kind of that almost otherworldly level.

[Jad Abumrad]

So Janelle swabbed her cheek, signed the paper, and then went about her normal life. And then about six months later, she got a call.

[Janelle Jenny]

Yeah. Yeah, it was a phone call to my landline. That's how long I've.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh, my gosh. So what year are we talking here?

[Janelle Jenny]

No, it's 2009.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay.

[Janelle Jenny]

It was a phone call. And I remember very specifically, it was voicemail. Cause I hadn't had the chance to answer it. And they said something to the extent of, you know, hi, we're from the National Bone Marrow Donor Registry. We've done some tests, and we've narrowed you down to be a preliminary match for a patient. So we need you to come in and do some further tests that involve blood and stuff.

[Robert Krulwich]

Did you think, oh, no, I forgot that I did that, or were you thinking, oh, boy? Or what were you.

[Janelle Jenny]

Oh, I was so. I. Overcome with emotion. I remember just to think there's somebody out there that might be my person. So absolutely no hesitation on my end. I went, right.

[Jad Abumrad]

So Janelle heads into the clinic because, well, so bone marrow, the stuff in the kind of core of your bones, actually produces all your blood cells, and importantly, including your white blood cells, which are a key part of your immune system. So what you're doing with a bone marrow transplant is taking a healthy immune system out of one person and putting it into another person whose immune system is cancer or messed up in some kind of way. The key is, though, because the immune system is that part of you that, like, recognizes you from not you and attacks anything that's not you. You have to, like, fool the new body into thinking that this immune system is them. And so the parts of your DNA that have to do with your immune system, a couple key parts of that have to match with the donor. So that's what they're doing with Janelle. They're taking her in to, like, test her DNA to see if the stuff that marks out her immune system matches closely enough with this, you know, recipient so that the bone marrow transplant will work.

[Janelle Jenny]

And then maybe a month later, I get, like, another call, and this one I was able to answer. And they say, well, we've done tests, and you are the ideal person in this 8 million person registry to donate for this patient. You are a perfect match, and will you do it? And I was like, absolutely.

[Robert Krulwich]

So does that feel to you, like the call of destiny? Like, oh, maybe. Maybe this was meant to be then?

[Janelle Jenny]

Yeah. There's something I feel that's, like, bigger than myself that's happening. And I don't really. I mean, I can't really explain it yet at that point, but I know there's like, okay, there's a big thing. So I go in, and unfortunately, to disappoint you, Robert, the way that I donated bone marrow wasn't actually the real bad way with the big needle.

[Robert Krulwich]

I'm not disappointed, Grateful for whoever. Have they come up with a small needle version?

[Janelle Jenny]

Yeah. Well, what they.

[Robert Krulwich]

Straw or something?

[Janelle Jenny]

Sort of what they essentially do, and this is actually the far more common way of doing it now, is they inject you with all these drugs, and it is, like, eight injections that boost your white blood cell count up to astronomical heights. And do you know, like, when you get sick, when your immune system kicks in overdrive and you feel sick? Imagine that, like, eight times over.

[Jad Abumrad]

Just because I'm nauseous, achy, shaky.

[Janelle Jenny]

So achy. Every bone hurt.

[Jad Abumrad]

And while Janelle is feeling achy, and sick inside of her, her bone marrow is pumping out a bunch of new.

[Janelle Jenny]

Baby blood cells, unmatured stem cells that can really become almost anything.

[Jad Abumrad]

Then they just go in and grab.

[Janelle Jenny]

Those cells, they harvest you, I guess. So you have a needle in both arms and you pretty much sit still for six hours. Jellies suck all your blood out of your body, put it in a machine and give you back what they don't need. So I think they've got about, you know, one of those little IV bags.

[Jad Abumrad]

Just a quart sized plastic bag full.

[Janelle Jenny]

Of, of my stem cells. And once you're done, they put some band aids on you and they're like, all right, let us know if you need anything.

[Jad Abumrad]

And do you know anything about like, what happens to your blood cells, like who gets it or what?

[Janelle Jenny]

Yeah, the whole registry is very, very strict about patient confidentiality. But they did tell me that it was a 29 year old man with acute lymphoblastic leukemia. And that's literally, that's all I knew for a whole year.

[Robert Krulwich]

Did you look that up in the.

[Janelle Jenny]

Oh, of course. I did endless Google searches of 29 year old man, acute lymphoblastic leukemia, trying.

[Robert Krulwich]

To get a real peek.

[Janelle Jenny]

Right. I was like, oh, maybe he's worded it that way and didn't find anything. Of course. But once that year is up, if both parties agree, then we can talk. And that's kind of really interesting because I definitely was looking forward to that year mark, but once that hit, I kind of got cold feet. I really just wasn't ready to know exactly who he was. And then I was also worried that maybe this guy's like a real piece of crap, like maybe he's a clan member or a criminal or something. So there's part of that too.

[Robert Krulwich]

So you worry that you'd open up the Sentinel and it would say, formerly ill person robs three banks and hits old ladies.

[Janelle Jenny]

Yes, yes.

[Jad Abumrad]

Horrible man. Saved by Janelle Jennie.

[Janelle Jenny]

Right? It's so stupid to say, but I thought that. So I did end up eventually sending this email or whatnot in I think about October. It took them a couple weeks to actually give my info to my patient and vice versa.

[Jim Monroe]

I was eating lunch with a friend of mine and I remember having chips and guacamole.

[Janelle Jenny]

By the way, my patient's name is Jim. So they gave Jim my info and.

[Jim Monroe]

My phone went off in my pocket. There was an email in my inbox and there was a scanned PDF attached to this email. And I opened it up and she had Filled this out with her own hand. And I just broke. I just wept like a little baby in a booth in a Mexican restaurant in the middle of Grapevine, Texas. And I got on Facebook, I saw a picture. I saw a picture of her and I was like, oh my gosh, it's gotta be her.

[Janelle Jenny]

I'd gotten an email or not email, Facebook friend request from said this guy named Jim Monroe in Texas. And I was like, oh, okay, I don't know anybody in Texas. And then it clicked. All of a sudden, this is the guy. This is him. I can see his picture. I can look and oh, what does he look like? Not very much like me.

[Jad Abumrad]

It wasn't Janelle with shorter hair.

[Jim Monroe]

Oh, right, yeah. Tall before. I've got blonder hair.

[Janelle Jenny]

Blonde hair, I think.

[Jim Monroe]

Fake blonde, I should say. It's dyed right now, but I have like strawberry blonde hair, but tall, blonde.

[Janelle Jenny]

Haired, blue eyed, white guy, blue eyes.

[Jim Monroe]

I'm very handsome.

[Janelle Jenny]

Yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

What are you, by the way?

[Janelle Jenny]

Short blond haired, Blue eyed person.

[Robert Krulwich]

Short blond haired.

[Janelle Jenny]

So I guess.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay, well. So it's okay.

[Jim Monroe]

Yeah, yeah. We could be cousins, I think.

[Janelle Jenny]

And yeah, so I looked at all of his pictures and his wife, who was a model and these kids were so adorable. And I tried to find as much as I can. And as far as his profession, I was like, oh, he appears to be some sort of magician, so I guess we'll talk about that later.

[Robert Krulwich]

So I don't even know, like, I guess why don't we just find out like where you're from and where you were raised and do it that way.

[Jim Monroe]

So I was born in Orange County, California, Fullerton, California. I went to school in Anaheim, High School in Anaheim, was a baseball player. So I ended up going. I was a very, very good baseball player. I got drafted by the. At the time they were called the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. Now they're just the Tampa Bay Rays.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh, you were that good.

[Jim Monroe]

Yeah. I turned down a professional baseball contract to go play at the University of Texas in Austin.

[Jad Abumrad]

What did you play?

[Jim Monroe]

I was a pitcher. I was a hard throwing right hander and ended up getting, like I said, drafted and went to the University of Texas to play baseball. And that's what I thought I was going to be. I thought I was going to be a professional baseball player. And then my sophomore year of college, I blew out my shoulder. I had a surgery my freshman year and then came back and was thrown harder than ever, then did it again. So baseball was kind of over, over at like 19.

[Robert Krulwich]

Like that's.

[Jim Monroe]

Yes, sir. Yeah, it was a pretty. It was a big kick in the head.

[Jad Abumrad]

But he finished up school, maintained my.

[Jim Monroe]

Scholarship as a medical red shirt, majored.

[Jad Abumrad]

In business and psychology.

[Jim Monroe]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

Then moved up to Boulder, Colorado, got married and had a couple kids.

[Jim Monroe]

And one of my really good friends during this time was. His name was Tennyson, and he became one of my best friends. He was. He wasn't just my best friend. He was like my brother. He was an athlete, too. So he was a former college football player. And he had also lost his football career based upon an injury. And then also new magic and illusion.

[Jad Abumrad]

And magic was actually something that Jim had been fascinated by ever since he was a kid.

[Jim Monroe]

Yeah, I saw trade show magician when I was 10 or 11. It was at the Anaheim Convention center, of all places, at an optometric convention. Both my parents are optometrists, and he was just doing trade show stuff at a booth.

[Jad Abumrad]

Do you remember what he was doing?

[Jim Monroe]

He did a version of this trick called Cards Across. He made a cigarette appear. He had a.

[Robert Krulwich]

Which he pulled out of your head or out of somebody's.

[Jim Monroe]

No, no. He just casually holding his hand and was holding a zigzag in the tips of his fingers. And he goes to light it, and there's a puff of smoke, and there's a real cigarette.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, but the thought you had at that moment was, I want to do that.

[Jim Monroe]

It was, how did he do that? And that is cool. And, you know, I'm going to go learn how that's done. So I just began to look at card tricks and read books on how all this stuff was done to figure out how it was done.

[Jad Abumrad]

So when you met Tennyson, you know, they started practicing together and doing shows in front of friends and family.

[Jim Monroe]

And pretty soon, sure enough, we start doing gigs.

[Jad Abumrad]

They started doing these shows at, like, schools and festivals and stuff. And they would do these tricks, like a lot of kind of card tricks and number tricks, say, where you pick a random number and it would end up. It was written on a piece of paper in the shoe of an audience member or something like that. But then the show would turn into something else. Because the thing is, Tennyson was a believer, overwhelmingly. So, like, believer, like in God, you mean? Yeah, a Christian.

[Jim Monroe]

And Tennyson was very convinced.

[Jad Abumrad]

And so after an hour or so of magic tricks, just pure entertainment, Tennyson would say to the crowd, this has been great.

[Jim Monroe]

We're gonna take a quick break. We're gonna give you guys a chance to take off. Cause during the second part of this show, we're gonna talk about what the Christian perspective is and why we believe this Christian thing. If you want to stick around, great. If you don't, take off now, Jim.

[Jad Abumrad]

Says during this part of the show.

[Jim Monroe]

Tennyson in particular was way more of the evangelistic piece of this, and I considered myself more of a producer now.

[Jad Abumrad]

Jim had actually grown up going to church.

[Jim Monroe]

Yes, I was. My parents went to Lutheran church. I was at one point doing that, but still there's. You know, at the end of the day, it was just. There was nothing in it that seemed to be satisfying.

[Jad Abumrad]

And so at this point in the show, Jim would sort of stand back a bit as Tennyson talked about how magic is actually all about the unseen. And behind the veil of reality, there's a God watching over us. And Jim says he would be standing there on stage watching these people in the audience who are feeling this real connection with God.

[Jim Monroe]

However, I wasn't having that experience.

[Jad Abumrad]

He's just like, I don't feel what. What they're feeling. And he started to think to himself.

[Jim Monroe]

I didn't want to be the guy that said, well, I'm a Christian because my friends were, or, I'm a Christian because I was raised that way. I want it to be true.

[Jad Abumrad]

And he just wasn't sure that it was right. And then after he and Tennyson had been doing this show for a year and a half or so, Jim got a call. Tennyson had been out hiking in the mountains just outside of Boulder, and he.

[Jim Monroe]

Was found in a river.

[Jad Abumrad]

His body was partially submerged just at the edge of the water at the base of a 40 foot cliff.

[Jim Monroe]

And peaceful valley is what it was called. No one really knows how he passed away.

[Jad Abumrad]

It looked like he might have actually fallen from the cliff. The police thought maybe suicide, but it.

[Jim Monroe]

Could be, you know, exposure to the elements, that kind of thing. Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

Jim says he was just, you know, devastated.

[Jim Monroe]

Yeah, he's probably the closest male friend I've ever had.

[Jad Abumrad]

Just felt like he was, you know, in the bottom of a hol.

[Jim Monroe]

Yeah, bottom of a hole, kind of figuring it out. Best friend passes away. My wife and I, as a result, kind of got into this really strange season where, you know, I'm depressed, she's depressed. We're pretty much on the verge of calling it quits. And then my leg starts hurting really badly.

[Robert Krulwich]

Where? In the leg?

[Jim Monroe]

Underneath my right knee.

[Jad Abumrad]

Jim says he started popping Advil every day. At first just a couple, then more.

[Jim Monroe]

And more, and I'm trying to gut.

[Jad Abumrad]

It out Then he came home one day and he says the pain was so bad, he couldn't even get out of his car. And so his wife was like, look, we're going to the hospital now.

[Jim Monroe]

And I'm sitting there in an emergency room, and this man walks into my room and he looks at me, he says, you have cancer.

[Jad Abumrad]

Jim had leukemia, which is cancer of the blood cells.

[Jim Monroe]

So the white blood cells inside of your bone marrow have literally exploded out of control. And the reason why your leg hurts so bad is because your bone is breaking on its own from the inside.

[Jad Abumrad]

Wow.

[Jim Monroe]

And he said, if you don't do anything, you're gonna die in two months.

[Jad Abumrad]

Just before Christmas of 2008, Jim checks into the hospital, and right away they do two things. One, they put Jim on the bone marrow registry in the hopes that he can find a donor. And two, just to keep him alive while he waits, they start putting him through round after round of chemo and.

[Jim Monroe]

Get this wicked concoction of stuff and then be let out.

[Jad Abumrad]

He loses his hair, his body starts.

[Jim Monroe]

To fall apart, and all you can do at that point is just.

[Janelle Jenny]

Hope.

[Robert Krulwich]

You know, like, tick, tock, tick, tock.

[Jim Monroe]

Tick, tock, tick, tock, tick, tock.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Jim Monroe]

Yep. That's when you think you know what you believe to be true is in adversity. That's when you find out. So for me, it was not. It was not a Christian worldview. If there is an all loving, omnipotent, powerful being that makes the universe go round, then why would things like, you know, suicide or murder or rape exist in this constructed world of his?

[Jad Abumrad]

Jim just couldn't get himself to believe in the existence of a God like that or really any God.

[Jim Monroe]

You know, it wasn't any rhyme or reason or purpose. It's just, this is. This is my lot. This really sucks.

[Jad Abumrad]

And then when he was at his lowest point, I remember driving back to.

[Jim Monroe]

Houston, Texas, for more chemo and my phone rang and I didn't recognize the number. And I said, hello. And this woman on the other line, she said, there's one person that we've been able to identify on the planet out of all the databases, everything, there's one.

[Janelle Jenny]

You are the ideal person in this 8 million person registry to donate for this patient.

[Jim Monroe]

Think about that. This is in the world.

[Janelle Jenny]

You are a perfect match. Will you do it? And I was like, absolutely.

[Jim Monroe]

My wife and I were in the car together, and it was just tears, you know, it's like, wow, that's amazing.

[Janelle Jenny]

So April 20th, and this is important to remember April 20th was when I donated.

[Jad Abumrad]

And as they were pulling the cells out of Janelle's body up in Wisconsin.

[Janelle Jenny]

You know, one of those little IV bags full of my stem cells down.

[Jad Abumrad]

In Texas, Jim's doctors were telling him.

[Jim Monroe]

Your bone marrow transplant is scheduled for April 23. On April 23, the nurses, they come inside of your room to celebrate your second birth. And then I remember Dr. Giraudt telling me, are you ready to put your boxing gloves on? Well, what he was preparing me for was a death. Come to find out later on, they pulled my wife out of my room, and they said, we're gonna give this to him with all this medication, he could potentially receive this and reject this violently and pass away.

[Jad Abumrad]

Because, remember, they're essentially replacing Jim's immune system with somebody else's, in this case, Janelle's. And in a very real way, they're replacing that part of Jim that determines who he is with someone who he clearly isn't. And so there's a real chance that the body will just short circuit.

[Jim Monroe]

So they give you this drug. The nurse is nicknamed Shake and Bake.

[Jad Abumrad]

It's designed to basically wipe out whatever is left of Jim's immune system. His white blood cells put inside of.

[Jim Monroe]

Your IV and your body just starts convulsing.

[Jad Abumrad]

And then they put Janelle's cells in.

[Jim Monroe]

And they monitored me.

[Jad Abumrad]

And over the next couple weeks, Janelle's cells enter Jim's body, they get into his bone marrow, and they start producing new white blood cells, basically producing a whole new immune system. And eventually, Jim is cancer free.

[Jim Monroe]

I mean, it's literally like new life, you know? Now, I will say this. Some bells kind of began to go off of my head a little bit.

[Jad Abumrad]

Jim says before he even got the transplant, his doctor had come into his room and told him, you're going to.

[Jim Monroe]

Be like a baby inside your mother's womb, literally being born again. Because on April 23rd. And once again, this is their terminology, there's someone else that's going to be living on the inside of you, and this new system of blood is going to be your life. Why is that interesting? You know, April 23rd. My new birthday is April 23rd. My old birthday, it's April 20th. My new birthday is on April 23rd. That's on the third day.

[Robert Krulwich]

And on the third day is significant because of the biblical echo.

[Jim Monroe]

The biblical echo? Yeah. I came back from whatever I was in because of the only blood on planet Earth that could save me and my disease.

[Robert Krulwich]

So does this land on you the way it sounds to me like it lands on you now, or did you go through a. Like. Like what hap.

[Jim Monroe]

Like those words. Yeah, those words in particularly bells went off in my head.

[Jad Abumrad]

Does that mean that you now suddenly believe in God again or for the first time or.

[Jim Monroe]

I mean, it's process, right? You follow. And then I think the puzzle pieces are kind of all swirling and coming together. But everything changed on that demarcating day, April 23rd.

[Jad Abumrad]

All thanks, obviously, to. To Janelle. And not long after they got each other's information and saw each other on Facebook, they hopped on a. On a phone call.

[Jim Monroe]

So she gets on and I get on and. But it's all kind of like, hey, oh, my gosh, this is crazy. I cannot believe this. Isn't this nuts? Yeah, this is so crazy. And then she drops this on me. She said, I went and got a tattoo of a jigsaw puzzle piece on the very spot where they stuck that IV in my arm to pull out the new blood, knowing that I was the missing piece in someone else's life, and without me, that person wouldn't be alive. And I said, do you. I was like. I was thinking, do you have a ton of tattoos? And she said, no, I have one. You know what Christians believe to be true, right? What is that? Their savior rolled up and showed them the very spot on his body where blood came out so that they would believe.

[Robert Krulwich]

So you're just going down this road. You're driving, like, at 100 miles an hour towards. Towards this.

[Jim Monroe]

For me, it was like I was being introduced to a person. There was an experiential understanding of.

[Jad Abumrad]

That.

[Jim Monroe]

Which was going on behind the scenes of this existence that was answering my prayer.

[Robert Krulwich]

The prayer is for is. The prayer is called are you there? That's the prayer. Yep.

[Jad Abumrad]

Are you there, God? Yeah. Basically, Jim saw Janelle and her donation to him as almost more than just allegory, as like something close to a literal proof of the existence of God, like a very real, very present sign.

[Jim Monroe]

I told her to. I told her that we need to meet. I said, can I please bring you out to Dallas, Texas?

[Janelle Jenny]

He said, I have to bring you to Texas, which is my nightmare. I'm just kidding, but absolutely. I wanted to go right into it.

[Jim Monroe]

I remember her tone. She's like, yeah, sure. Super excited. So, yes, I flew her to Dallas, Texas.

[Jad Abumrad]

Mike Scamrax.

[Jim Monroe]

I actually recorded it.

[Jad Abumrad]

Somebody you met?

[Jim Monroe]

This girl saved my life.

[Janelle Jenny]

Oh, really? Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

That's awesome. In the video, you see Jim sort of standing at the bottom of this escalator in the Dallas Fort Worth airport. He's, you know, looking pretty thin and pale and nervous. And then the camera turns and there's Janelle.

[Robert Krulwich]

Hi.

[Jad Abumrad]

Coming down the escalator. And they hug. And then his kids come up.

[Janelle Jenny]

Hi, can I walk, too? Aw, you're so cute.

[Jad Abumrad]

And eventually, his wife.

[Janelle Jenny]

Nice to meet you.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay, so now you go home.

[Janelle Jenny]

We go to his house. To his home, Right. And he lives in. In a very big house outside of Dallas.

[Jad Abumrad]

They had dinner with the family, and then, you know, once everybody else was kind of heading off to bed, Jim and Janelle started to talk.

[Janelle Jenny]

And I think, if I remember correctly, we were just outside by the pool and just talking and figuring out who each other was. And, you know, I was like, so, you know, magician. What. What. What is that? And he started telling me about what kind of magician he really is, and he is a Christian magician.

[Jim Monroe]

I'm sure that she's thinking, oh, my gosh, I just saved a Christian magician from Texas. Life jokes on me. Isn't that wonderful?

[Jad Abumrad]

You know, when we come back, Janelle becomes Jim's greatest magic trick.

[Robert Krulwich]

So don't go away.

[Jad Abumrad]

Drew Downey from Daphne, Alabama.

[Jim Monroe]

Radiolab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. More information about [e-mail].

[Janelle Jenny]

Radiolab is supported by Bilt. Nobody wants to pay rent, but if.

[Jad Abumrad]

You have to, Bilt works to make it more worthwhile.

[Janelle Jenny]

By paying rent through Built, you can earn flexible points that can be redeemed toward hundreds of hotels and airlines, a future rent payment, your next lift ride, and more. But it doesn't stop there.

[Jim Monroe]

You can dine out at your favorite.

[Janelle Jenny]

Local restaurants and earn additional points, get VIP treatment at certain fitness studios, and enjoy exclusive experiences just for Built members. Every month, earn points on rent and around your neighborhood, wherever you call home, by going to joinbuilt.com Radiolab that's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T.com Radiolab.

[Jad Abumrad]

Hey, I'm Molly Webster, and this is an ad by BetterHelp. So it happens every year. The seasons are changing, the days are getting shorter, and basically, once it becomes dark outside of my window, I feel like the rest of the world disappears and I'm just alone, and there's nothing left to do but watch television. This November, BetterHelp is asking everyone to reach out to our people. That could be your family, your friends, your neighbors, and to resist this call of the cocoon. And, yeah, Reaching out can take some courage. I've got text messages from January I haven't responded to and you know what? I'm gonna write em back right now. Hi, sorry I've been missing. How are you? Why don't we all do this sooner? Therapy is the same way. BetterHelp makes it easier to take that first step. You just fill out a short questionnaire and they find a license therapist who they think you'll like. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com Radiolab that's betterhelp.com Radiolab Radiolab is supported by Rippling Finance. Teams often spend weeks chasing receipts, reconciling spreadsheets and fixing errors across disconnected spend tools. This can be frustrating and that's not software as a service. That's sad software as a disservice. If you've been thinking about replacing stitched together tech stacks with one platform for all departments, Rippling can help. Rippling is a unified platform for global hr, payroll, IT and finance, helping people replace their mess of cobbled together tools with one system designed to help give leaders clarity, speed and control. By uniting employees, teams and departments in one system, Rippling works to remove the bottlenecks, busywork and silos in business software. With Rippling you can choose to run hr, IT and finance operations as one, or pick and choose the products that best fill the gaps. Right now you can get 6 months free when you go to rippling.com Radiolab learn more at r I p p l-I n g.com Radiolab terms and conditions apply. Radiolab is supported by Planet Visionaries, the podcast created in partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative. Stay tuned for a trailer and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Alex Honl, professional rock climber and founder of the Honl Foundation. I wanted to let you know about a brand new season of the Planet Visionaries podcast in partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative. This is the podcast exploring bold ideas and big solutions from the people leading the way in conservation. Join me in conversation with the likes of climate champion Mark Ruffalo, biologist and photographer Christina Mittermeier, and one of the most successful conservationists of our time, Chris Tompkins. Join us on Planet Visionaries wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, we're back. I'm Jad Abumrad.

[Robert Krulwich]

I'm Robert Krulwich, this is Radiolab and.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay, let's return to a story from Soren Wheeler. So Soren, you left us in the backyar. About to talk Right, Yep. Sitting in Jim's backyard by the pool. And he's basically telling her his whole story about his sort of loss of faith and the cancer and how she saved his life. And then he tells her that right after she saved him, he started doing the magic show again, that show that he used to do with Tennyson.

[Janelle Jenny]

And the show is called the Maze.

[Jim Monroe]

My name is Jim Monroe. This is the Maze.

[Jad Abumrad]

So we actually got to see Jim's show, and I have to say, he's a pro. It's an impressive production. He gets big venues over here ready to have some fun tonight. Usually thousand people or so. There's crazy laser light show stuff. And he does these really complicated illusions that are sort of half Penn and Teller, half David Blaine.

[Janelle Jenny]

Like, for example, picking a random phone number out of the phone book, 4700. And it ends up being someone in the audience.

[Jad Abumrad]

And then their phone will end up, like, hidden somewhere, something like that.

[Janelle Jenny]

And they're very good.

[Jad Abumrad]

So Jim is telling Janelle about all these tricks, but then he says, the.

[Janelle Jenny]

Second half of the show is about us.

[Jad Abumrad]

He explains that the magic show at this point ends. He tells people they can leave if they want to. And he starts to talk openly, confessionally to the audience, where I quickly found.

[Jim Monroe]

Out that I had cancer, in very.

[Jad Abumrad]

Personal terms, about what happened to him.

[Jim Monroe]

So my wife and I raced down to MD Anderson Cancer center, and at.

[Jad Abumrad]

A certain point, he shows a video.

[Robert Krulwich]

Been off chemo now, but they say.

[Jim Monroe]

That the stuff in the chemo is really starting to kick in because I can't keep. I can't keep anything down.

[Jad Abumrad]

He's in the hospital.

[Jim Monroe]

My mouth is dry.

[Jad Abumrad]

Throwing up into a bucket. And he's pale, thin, huge circles under his eyes. And then he explains that right when he was on the edge of death.

[Janelle Jenny]

That at his lowest point, this. This thing happened.

[Jad Abumrad]

A miracle happened.

[Robert Krulwich]

There is one.

[Jim Monroe]

One person, just one.

[Janelle Jenny]

When his blood was literally poisoning his own body, somebody substituted their blood on his behalf so he could be reborn. I guess, three days after his birthday.

[Jim Monroe]

On the third day, I came back from the dead because the only blood on the planet that could save me, my disease.

[Janelle Jenny]

So there's a whole three days thing there, which is a story of Easter and the rebirth. It's a story. I mean, he sees this as, like, definitive proof that there's a God.

[Jim Monroe]

I am either the statistical anomaly that continues to propagate this false ideology about.

[Jad Abumrad]

Supernaturalism and miracles, all stuff.

[Jim Monroe]

I'm either that statistical anomaly that's so. So wild that it's like being bitten by a shark and struck by lightning at the same time twice in the same lifetime. Or you might have to believe what I believe is true, and that is there is some and bigger one on behind the Scenes, and his name is Jesus.

[Janelle Jenny]

So, yes, this is all being thrown at me.

[Jad Abumrad]

And is he saying all this to you by the pool? Is it all. It all comes tumbling out?

[Janelle Jenny]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

And how are you? How are you feeling inside?

[Janelle Jenny]

Stranger and stranger going down the wormhole. Because I am an atheist in the sense that I don't. I don't believe in the tenets of Christianity. I don't believe really in the tenets of any established religion I've ever seen. Honestly, I just think that once things are labeled and you're pigeonholed and the exclusivity of really any religion is the cause for a lot of problems throughout history. But faith can be beautiful. And there's definitely parts of me and there's moments in my life that boy praying and really feeling like that was going out to somebody would feel great, but I just can't. I just can't do it. So at that moment, he's telling me this, and. Yeah. And he's like, well, you know, you're here in Texas for this weekend, and would you be willing to come on stage for one of my shows so I can introduce you? And of course, I said yes.

[Jad Abumrad]

Really? Of course. Of course you said yes.

[Janelle Jenny]

Yeah, of course. I've always kind of looked at our story as something bigger than what he believes, than what I don't believe. It's bigger. It's capital B, underline, bold. It's big.

[Jad Abumrad]

Partly because Jim, at every show, he has the bone marrow registry people right there ready to sign folks up.

[Janelle Jenny]

And because of the show they just saw, he can get hundreds. I know that dozens of people have gone on to be matches. So this was truly the culmination of. From the. The moment I signed up to be on that registry, this felt like the zenith of this entire thing. So next night at Texas Christian University, packed house.

[Jad Abumrad]

Janelle's in the audience.

[Janelle Jenny]

I was in, like, the front row.

[Jad Abumrad]

And during the second part of the show, when Jim goes through the rebirth part, he stops and he says, guess what, everyone? That person who saved my life, she's here.

[Janelle Jenny]

He has me walk up on stage. Crowd went wild. The first time in my life, I got a standing ovation.

[Jad Abumrad]

Because you're Jesus. That's why the cat's world's crazy is because.

[Janelle Jenny]

Yes. Yeah. All of these kids in the audience who are all pretty much my age as well at that point, are seeing my being on stage as the. Quite possibly the biggest proof they've ever had that there is a God.

[Robert Krulwich]

Were you now, was there any part of you that said, I shouldn't be here, or were you all there?

[Janelle Jenny]

There was a part of me that felt a little bit of an imposter.

[Jad Abumrad]

But for Janelle, she says that feeling was outweighed just by the number of people that were lining up at the bone marrow donation table. And so the next time she had a chance, she did it again and again and again. She's now appeared at the end of the show around a dozen times all around the country, playing the role of Jim's personal savior. And she says the more time she did it, the more that feeling, that sort of fraud feeling, kept popping up, each time a little bit louder.

[Janelle Jenny]

Yeah, there's parts of me. There's little fibers in my being that are like, wow, if this is a sign, if there is a God, I'm a real jerk. This is such a beautiful and really literal story being told to me about, like, hey, you know, maybe there is a God.

[Jad Abumrad]

She says she started to feel that, like, if she's both perpetuating that story.

[Janelle Jenny]

And refusing it, there's special place in hell for me.

[Jad Abumrad]

And this is why Janelle got in touch with us, because she wanted us to help her figure out a way to tell a story that let her way of seeing the world into the room. Okay, are you guys. Is everyone there?

[Janelle Jenny]

I'm here.

[Jad Abumrad]

Jim, can you hear us?

[Jim Monroe]

Yeah, I can hear you guys. Janelle, can you hear me?

[Janelle Jenny]

I can.

[Jim Monroe]

How are you?

[Jad Abumrad]

So our producer, Latif Nasser, actually started talking to Janelle about what exactly she wanted to do, and they decided that we should just all get in the studio, Jim and her and all of us, and see if we could hash it out.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay.

[Jad Abumrad]

But I guess, like, Janelle, do you want to just kind of talk through what we've been thinking?

[Janelle Jenny]

Sure, I can try. And if you want to help me, Latif, sure. Essentially, Latifah and I have been talking about what would be the best way for me to kind of tell my side of the story.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Janelle Jenny]

My side of our story, so to speak, without so much of the religious stuff.

[Jim Monroe]

Yeah. So when are you guys gonna do that? Maybe I missed the point. I'm sorry. So do you say we, as in, like, we are gonna do a version of that?

[Janelle Jenny]

Well, I thought you could help me.

[Jim Monroe]

Oh, cool. Well, I would have no problem.

[Janelle Jenny]

Yeah, kind of just because you are so not only a magician with magic things, but also with words.

[Jim Monroe]

Uh huh.

[Janelle Jenny]

So maybe if we could. If you could help me.

[Jim Monroe]

So yeah, totally. That's so interesting. My mind begins to spin and I have a.

[Jad Abumrad]

So at first we suggested maybe Janelle could come out at the end of one of Jim's shows and just read a statement or something. And Jim said, you know, that's probably not gonna work.

[Jim Monroe]

As you guys know, in this world, there's. I mean, aud audiences come based upon how things are marketed and booked.

[Jad Abumrad]

And Jim said, you know, he has to worry about sort of as a business, the expectations of his. Of his sponsors and even the audience who are. Who are looking for a certain thing.

[Jim Monroe]

I was thinking like a producer because I'm totally up.

[Jad Abumrad]

So we were like, yeah, okay, fair enough. Maybe we could be like a Q and A after the show or something like that. I don't know.

[Jim Monroe]

I'd have to really process it, but I'm totally open to it. I would always love to help Janelle. Figured, I mean, help her put it all together. And like, I think though that.

[Jad Abumrad]

So eventually we landed on a plan. Jim was going to be doing his show up in St. Cloud, Minnesota, and we decided, well, we could just do a show with him and Janelle the next night. So along with producers Lotif Nasser and Annie McKeown, we headed up to St. Cloud, met up with Janelle, and that night we went to all go see Jim's show. It's a pretty big venue. There was probably like a thousand people there, all college students. And of course, because Janelle was there right after he did the sort of personal journey back to God.

[Jim Monroe]

Check this out.

[Jad Abumrad]

Come up to it.

[Jim Monroe]

She's here tonight.

[Jad Abumrad]

It's a little bit hard to hear, but there was literally like a shudder of energy that went through the crowd at that moment.

[Jim Monroe]

Ladies and gentlemen, I want to welcome.

[Jad Abumrad]

You on the stage.

[Jim Monroe]

This is Janelle. Jenny, come on. So, yeah, I got your accent.

[Janelle Jenny]

Well, you're the much better speaker than me, but what I can say is I encourage all of you to consider.

[Jad Abumrad]

So Janelle just pointed out that the National Bone Marrow Registry would be there that night and she encouraged everybody to, you know, sign up and have a chance to save a life and do something good.

[Janelle Jenny]

So please do that. Or at least consider it showing the tattoo. Oh, yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

And then Jim had her show the whole audience her puzzle piece tattoo.

[Janelle Jenny]

I have a tattoo. Only one still.

[Jim Monroe]

There it is. Right.

[Jad Abumrad]

And once Janelle had stepped back off the stage before we Close.

[Jim Monroe]

I wanted to know if I could pray for you. Do you guys still pray in Minnesota? Down here is like hell yeah, we do.

[Jad Abumrad]

Alright, good. We need to pray.

[Jim Monroe]

Alright. So would you mind. I told you you could leave. I want you to pray this prayer with me. Just say this in your heart. Say, lord Jesus, tonight I choose to turn and stop living for myself. My own version of my own story. And I want to trust you. I don't have all the answers, but I know you do. And tonight, by faith, I choose to follow you. Thank you for loving me. Thank you in the midst of all of this randomness that I experienced, coming after me for being jealous for me. I love you too. In Jesus mighty name, amen. And amen.

[Jad Abumrad]

And then just before everybody stepped out.

[Jim Monroe]

Also, this is very important. I'm gonna be here another night.

[Jad Abumrad]

I'm gonna be here tonight.

[Jim Monroe]

We're gonna be here tomorrow night. Have you guys heard of the podcast Radio Lab?

[Jad Abumrad]

Have you heard of radio. That's about three people that shouted out. They're in the audience.

[Jim Monroe]

I'm just gonna sit down. I'm not gonna point them out, but they're in the audience.

[Jad Abumrad]

Nobody cared.

[Jim Monroe]

Randy Lab is going to be holding this forum now. Jenny is going to tell her side of the story of what happens to.

[Jad Abumrad]

Her through this process.

[Janelle Jenny]

Right.

[Jad Abumrad]

All right. So after the show we actually got a chance to talk to some of the people from the audience.

[Janelle Jenny]

And then hearing the whole three days thing, like, I was like, oh my God, that's wow. Oh my God.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah. I couldn't believe that she was actually here. She's here in there.

[Robert Krulwich]

Think about it.

[Jim Monroe]

I would have been so shocked to sit right next to her.

[Jad Abumrad]

Pretty much everybody was totally floored by actually getting to see Janelle in person. And they all seem to take her story the way Jim does. She was a visual example of everything.

[Janelle Jenny]

Put a face to this whole thing.

[Jad Abumrad]

So many things fell in mind where.

[Jim Monroe]

You just have to believe, in my opinion.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the next night.

[Jim Monroe]

Good evening, everyone.

[Robert Krulwich]

Welcome.

[Jad Abumrad]

My name is Mark Springer with much less fanfare in a much smaller room, like maybe 100 people there or so. With the help of the religious studies program at St. Cloud University. Hear me.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay. Yes, There I am. Oh my gosh.

[Jad Abumrad]

We did Janelle's thing.

[Robert Krulwich]

All right, so I'm Robert Kulwich. I am one of the co hosts of a public radio program because they called Radiolab. I want to introduce also Soren Wheeler, who is our managing editor, who's going to. That's him. He's going to be adding his two cents from time to time. We're a very democratic show, and, like, nobody controls anything, and everybody pitches in, and so he will, too. And I want to begin by just telling you a story.

[Jad Abumrad]

So we brought Janelle up on stage.

[Robert Krulwich]

But Janelle, could you just come up here and sit? I guess. Might as well sit here.

[Jad Abumrad]

We told her whole story of, you know, donating and then waiting a year to find out, you know, who Jim really was.

[Janelle Jenny]

Talk or. I had no idea that.

[Jad Abumrad]

And then we brought Jim on stage.

[Robert Krulwich]

So Jim, the year is up.

[Jad Abumrad]

He talked about, you know, his whole.

[Jim Monroe]

Process of recovery, trying to get your bearings.

[Jad Abumrad]

He talked about how grateful and thankful he was. And then we turned back to Janelle.

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, let's make this a little more complicated. Soren, could you just run? I asked you, like, how you felt in that first round, and this is what you told me in the interview.

[Janelle Jenny]

There was a part of me that felt a little bit of an imposter.

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, now, why would you use the word imposter? Why did you choose that word?

[Janelle Jenny]

So we should start getting into the meat and potatoes of my thoughts.

[Robert Krulwich]

I think so, yeah.

[Janelle Jenny]

Part of me, and at that time especially thought that I'm up here again as this pretty hard and fast proof or very compelling narrative for a lot of people and their faith that I don't particularly share at all.

[Jim Monroe]

Can I ask a question?

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah.

[Jim Monroe]

But knowing that you knew it at.

[Janelle Jenny]

That point, because I think we talked.

[Jim Monroe]

About that, but I was very concerned knowing that you didn't agree with what I believed to be true, that you would feel like you were in that spot. That's why I asked you.

[Janelle Jenny]

Of course. And I could have declined, but, I.

[Jim Monroe]

Mean, but at the same time, it doesn't make anything different than the fact that it's still what it is, you know?

[Janelle Jenny]

Exactly. I would have done it, regardless of whatever it was. If your whole theme of your show was how great the Dallas Cowboys were and it got everybody to join the bone marrow registry, I would have got up there in a cowboy's hat. Honestly, Jim, everybody, every time I see your show, even though I don't adhere to the religious tenets of it, I still get that feeling. And everybody, all my family, all my friends, whatever their religious, even my Muslim friends that I've told this story get that feeling. And what that feeling is is a little intangible, but I think it's something even a little bigger than that. Sounds so crappy to say bigger than Jesus. That's really blasphemous. But I can't think of a better way to say it.

[Robert Krulwich]

Can you explain what that means?

[Janelle Jenny]

Well, you know that there is good in this universe and there is good in everybody. And it is, regardless of. Of the goodness is at the top of the list of you and everything else as follows. Your religion and your race and where you're born and your favorite pizza toppings and all of that. But at the very top is good with the capital G. And it's underlined, too.

[Robert Krulwich]

All right, Jim, in your show, you have a rather gorgeous take on moral relativism. You have a string of thoughts that this idea about being good and doing no harm and living as ethically as you know how is satisfying to some people, but in your view, it isn't really enough.

[Jim Monroe]

Yeah, this is where we. I mean, obviously there's some disagreement here. I think that there is good and I think that there is evidence. Evil in this world. And I think that people in and of their own, left to their own vices, left to own devices, I think that they struggle with being good. I think that even on our best day, I think that we fall short.

[Robert Krulwich]

And so in hearing her account, you just say. You just saying, thinking what, that she's not weird is. She falls short. Where does this idea lose you?

[Jad Abumrad]

I don't.

[Jim Monroe]

I mean, it doesn't lose me. I think it's phenomenally good. It's. I'm not. Not acknowledging as good. I just think that for. For the Christian, it's not about being good or bad. I think.

[Robert Krulwich]

What is it about?

[Jim Monroe]

I think it's about. I think it's about having a relationship with God. Does that make. Does that make sense?

[Robert Krulwich]

I guess it makes sense.

[Jad Abumrad]

At that point, Jim, you know, he made it clear that he definitely wasn't condemning Janelle because she didn't have a relationship with God. But then we took a sort of different approach. We started talking about the unlikeliness of this whole story, which is one of the things that Jim talks about in his show. And so at that point, I decided I should jump in. And I say this, and I really say this only because it is our job as a show that when we hear a story like this, we dig in, we investigate, and we do that from a. A frame that's really focused on math, facts, science. And a couple things happen to you. If you happen to be in my position. You run across stuff like this. And I'll just read from the Be the Match website. A patient's likelihood of finding a match donor on Be the Match Registry is estimated to be between 66 and 97%. The chances that you'll find a 10 to 10 match in the way that Jim and Janelle were 10 matches is around 50%.

[Robert Krulwich]

Wait a second, Wait a second.

[Janelle Jenny]

Which.

[Robert Krulwich]

That doesn't make sense to me. Well, it doesn't because million people. She was the one.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah. Let me say that this does not actually contradict with Jim and Janelle's experience of it. For. For that to happen to Jim is truly staggering. It is truly. It could be one in a trillion. And you know, like the way winning a lottery is one in a trillion.

[Robert Krulwich]

But how could. Can't be both. One in.

[Jad Abumrad]

It can because what happens is if you back up away from the individual and ask not what are the chances this would happen to Jim, but what are the chances that this would happen to someone somewhere. It's like there's a story about if you're golfing and you hit a golf ball and it goes however many hundreds of yards. I don't play golf, so I don't know how far they go. But it lands on a blade of grass and that blade of grass says why me? Why would this golf ball crush me like this? Which is a valid point. I would feel that too. But that ball was going to land on some blade of grass. So it doesn't like the why me is still a true thing. It is a true experience in which.

[Robert Krulwich]

There is still this difference. I think the ball can't point to anything greater.

[Jad Abumrad]

No. The argument that lurks behind this is that these things happen and it is just chance.

[Robert Krulwich]

This is the random view. How do you, how do you dogs feel about that? That you were randomly there and you were randomly chosen isn't the word that the ball of mercy landed on you.

[Jim Monroe]

But I'm not also not coming at it from just that angle. I wonder if it was just the bone marrow transplant, if it would be. People get that all the time. I think perhaps the other bits and pieces of the puzzle maybe help shadow it in a little bit for me. And so I don't know. To me it's a multi layered cake.

[Robert Krulwich]

I thought you really don't like this idea of like in this science version there is no design and there is no first cause except the first random event that sets the thing in motion.

[Janelle Jenny]

Right.

[Robert Krulwich]

Do you both. Could you, either of you live with that version of what just happened to you?

[Janelle Jenny]

Yeah. Well, that's perfect because it's exactly what you talk about in your show with.

[Jad Abumrad]

All the different cards Janelle's referring To a thing in Jim's show where he talks about how unlikely any particular order of cards in a deck is.

[Janelle Jenny]

And the idea of a particular set of cards being dealt in a particular way is 52 factorial, which is pretty much impossible. It is impossible. I mean, it's an impossible number. You could statistically. Right, right. But yet you deal the cards, and they happen right there. So this really gets into just the different viewpoints on the proverbial deck of cards and who is dealing them. Is it in a particular fashion? And I think that's what Jim believes, is that there is a proverbial dealer, and I don't. I guess.

[Robert Krulwich]

Mm. And you agree that that's pretty much the difference?

[Jim Monroe]

Yeah. I mean, having given thought to that, I believe that there was some sort of, you know, mind, personality.

[Robert Krulwich]

The I believe part is where you stand.

[Jim Monroe]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. It is. It's faith.

[Robert Krulwich]

And, Janelle, you're his savior, I guess, and you saved his life, but in some way, you don't. You haven't. Do you worry about this at all?

[Janelle Jenny]

Yeah, absolutely. And even right now on this stage, there's a part of me that. In front of all of you that I'm sure a lot of you were at the show last night, there's a part of me that is afraid of disappointing, that I don't share what you believe to be true. I mean, your entire experience pretty much points the arrow that, like, I'm like an alliteration of Jesus in your story. And that's really difficult to reconcile as someone who doesn't have faith. And it makes me sad sometimes because I think it would be a lot easier if I just believed exactly what you believed. And I think that I always am very afraid of letting that be known. Like, I'm super, like, clammy right now, just saying it in front of this many people. I just feel like people would see your story, and it's so tremendously compelling. It's unbelievable. And then see that. That last piece of this little puzzle literally doesn't fit at all.

[Jim Monroe]

I mean, it's not like I haven't. I haven't thought about that either and how you might feel. And I empathize, and I don't know how to answer that. You know, I just want to give you a hug.

[Janelle Jenny]

Yeah.

[Jim Monroe]

There's an unconditionality to how I feel about you that I just. You can do no wrong in my eyes.

[Robert Krulwich]

Here's for you, the hardest thing. I was just trying to think about how difficult this must be. You have been saved. Your life has been saved by her. She is, in effect, your savior. And yet your belief is that unless she accepts Jesus, that in some sense, she's outside of grace. And, you know, I don't know what you believe about hell and heaven, but that she might be punished. So what do you do about this weird contradiction? She's insisting. Nope, not for me. And you're insisting. Oh, no, this is the way it is. And. Oh, my gosh, is it hard for you?

[Jim Monroe]

No, not at all. I'll tell you why. Because it's not my place to do that. I'm very sorry to everyone who listens to this, whoever feels like they got judged by a Christian, because it's never their place to do that. And this is where I think most of the times and everybody listening to this podcast is placed as kind of positioned or pigeonholed Christians. And what they don't understand is that I'm not commanded to do anything but to love and to start conversations.

[Jad Abumrad]

Right.

[Jim Monroe]

I'm not the one. I'm not the one who is sent into the world to judge. All right, but what I. So putting it like that, I know where you want to go with this.

[Janelle Jenny]

No, I'm just.

[Robert Krulwich]

This is actually an honest question. You have to love the judge that may not love the woman who saved your life. That's hard, I think.

[Jim Monroe]

Yeah. But at the same time, that's not what I'm saying. That's not my place.

[Jad Abumrad]

I have to say, I think we were sort of expecting that maybe there would be a sharper edge to the differences between Jim and Janelle. But to be honest, their conversation that night and their story started to feel like almost an allegory for how to move through the world and hold your differences, but still be one.

[Robert Krulwich]

Let me just finish this way. Do you have a sense between the two of you? Because obviously you stay very, very good friends. I mean, that's obvious. Is there something that either of you can say that explains why you can dignifiedly but emphatically disagree and still stay in such extraordinary close touch?

[Janelle Jenny]

I think the idea of humility, and as Jim might even say, grace is absolutely essential, no matter your tenants of belief, and that's really what's going to get you through conflict? So, yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

And is it because you're in this big ocean of the world and the two of you are just little dots in it, and so whatever you think, it's still, you're in the big ocean and there you are together. Is that.

[Janelle Jenny]

I think maybe. Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

And do you have her bigness thing. Do you feel small?

[Jim Monroe]

Do I feel small? Yeah, I feel tiny. Humility at its root. Word. The root is humus, which means dirt. So when you become humble, you become dirt.

[Jad Abumrad]

I could keep going.

[Jim Monroe]

I could keep going. You know what God does with dirt is he creates things. But I won't go there. But you become dirt. And I think where we get hung up is that we want to be right. And that hasn't been brought into this yet. We want to be right. And right and wrong are the words. Right and wrong are dead. I think in relationship are deadly words. I think that saying I'm right, you're.

[Robert Krulwich]

Wrong.

[Jim Monroe]

Is not good for relationships. I think it's like, let's find where we're.

[Robert Krulwich]

And have you ever said you're right or you're wrong to her?

[Janelle Jenny]

No, I haven't said it to him either. I don't think never.

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, that's a nice place to land.

[Jim Monroe]

I think so.

[Robert Krulwich]

I think we're done now. That doesn't mean we're done done. That means that I'm going to let these two people introduce the person who brought them together real early from the organization.

[Jad Abumrad]

At the end of the show, we had the bone marrow registry people there and encouraged people to sign up and quite a few did, I think maybe 20 or so. But that was pretty much nothing compared to what Jim got at the end of his show.

[Janelle Jenny]

150 people. Wait, say that again. There's like one hundred and fifty people signing up right now. Did you count them?

[Jad Abumrad]

That's our producer, Annie McEwan.

[Janelle Jenny]

It's at least that. Is this bigger than normal or is it always like this? This is a little bigger than normal. I think anytime that I'm actually in the show, it's a little bit better. So I've been told. And what is it? How are you feeling when you watch this? It's really overwhelming. Like. Yeah. Kind of makes me want to cry. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, without you, this wouldn't happen. I. It's almost too big to think of.

[Jad Abumrad]

It. Well, thank you, Soren. Sure. No problem.

[Robert Krulwich]

This piece was reported by Latif Nasser. Produced by Annie McEwan with help from Bethel Habte and Alex Overington.

[Jad Abumrad]

Special thanks to Julie Schmidt with Be the Match.

[Robert Krulwich]

And by the way, they are one of the several bone marrow registries. This is the one that Jim and Janelle were connected to. It is called Be the Match. And if you want to donate while we made a special arrangement with them, all you have to do is go to join.bethematch.org that's capital B, capital T, capital M. One word. Join.bethematch.org Radiolab and you'll get a spit swab thing in the mail and maybe, well, maybe you can save a life. It's free if you are under 45. So again, that's. Join.bethematch.org Radiolab Also, thanks to Ginger Garbage.

[Jad Abumrad]

Alvin, Bryce Harney and Stu True with the Maze, and to Mark Springer, Kevin.

[Robert Krulwich]

Sharp, Jim Gray, Kelly Larson and the rest of the wonderful faculty and staff at St. Cloud State University in Minnesota. You can see and hear and learn more about Jim's [e-mail] that's one word. Whatisthemaze.com Also, Jim has a book about his experiences and his story. So that's also on our website. So might want to go there and look at that. All right.

[Jad Abumrad]

I'm Jad Abumrad.

[Robert Krulwich]

I'm Robert Krulwich.

[Jad Abumrad]

Thanks for listening.

[Janelle Jenny]

To play the message, press 2 for a complimentary stay. Message 2. New from phone number. We have made several attempts to reach you.

[Jad Abumrad]

Message three.

[Janelle Jenny]

It appears that you are now eligible. Message four.

[Jim Monroe]

Hey, this is Jim Monroe, the magician and Dallas Cowboys fan.

[Janelle Jenny]

Hi, this is Janelle Jenny and I'm calling from Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Radiolab was created by Jad Abumrad and is produced by Soren Wheeler, who I.

[Jim Monroe]

Personally think is the coolest person that lives in Wisconsin.

[Janelle Jenny]

Dylan Keefe is our director of sound design.

[Jim Monroe]

Maria Matasarpedia is our managing director. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Becca Bressler.

[Janelle Jenny]

Rachel Cusick, David Gebel, Bethel Hobte, Tracy.

[Robert Krulwich]

Hunt, Matt Kielty, Robert Krulwich, Annie McEwen.

[Janelle Jenny]

Latif Nasser, Melissa O', Donnell, Arianne west and Molly Webster, with help from Amanda Aroncic, Shima Olili, David Fox, Nigar Fatali, Phoebe Wang and Katie Ferguson. Our fact checker is Michelle Harris. That was exhilarating.

[Jim Monroe]

Magicians usually disappear after they say something.

[Robert Krulwich]

So I'm just gonna say poof and.

[Janelle Jenny]

Go, packers, end of message.