Match Made in Marrow

Summary

Radiolab Episode Summary: "Match Made in Marrow"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Radiolab
• Host/Author: WNYC Studios
• Description: Radiolab embarks on a curiosity-driven journey, exploring deep questions through investigative journalism. Known for its innovative sound design, the show weaves science, legal history, and personal stories into engaging narratives. Hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.
• Episode: Match Made in Marrow
• Release Date: January 3, 2025

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1. Introduction to the Story

Hosts: Latif Nasser, Jad Abumrad, and Robert Krulwich introduce a poignant tale of unexpected connections formed through a life-saving bone marrow donation. The episode sets the stage during the giving season, highlighting the profound impact a single act of generosity can have.

Latif Nasser [00:29]: "Today, we have a story about a really remarkable gift giver and gift receiver. Two people, basically strangers, who couldn't have been more different, but who managed to find a deep kind of connection despite those differences through a single gift."

2. Janelle's Decision to Donate

Janelle, a resident of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, recounts her decision to become a bone marrow donor at a rock concert's donation tent. Driven by altruism, she undergoes the initial steps to join the registry without fully contemplating the medical implications.

Janelle [03:24]: "I always thought that, you know, it would just be an amazing opportunity to be the one person who could do something for somebody that, like, literally no one else in the world could."

The hosts explain the bone marrow donation process, emphasizing the genetic matching required for a successful transplant.

3. Jim's Battle with Leukemia

Six months post-donation, Jim Monroe, a 29-year-old man from Texas, is diagnosed with acute lymphoblastic leukemia. Facing a dire prognosis, Jim is placed on the bone marrow registry, entering a race against time for a matching donor.

Janelle [05:56]: "If you don't do anything, you're gonna die in two months."

Jim undergoes intensive chemotherapy while awaiting the possibility of a life-saving transplant.

4. The Miraculous Match

In a staggering turn of events, Jim receives a call informing him that Janelle is his perfect bone marrow match. Overwhelmed with gratitude, he eagerly accepts the donation, leading to a successful transplant that ultimately saves his life.

Jad Abumrad [20:32]: "Think about that. This is in the world."

5. The Meeting and Its Implications

Jim invites Janelle to Texas to personally thank her. Their meeting is heartfelt, with Jim sharing his journey from despair to recovery, attributing his salvation to Janelle's selfless act.

During Jim's magic show, Janelle is brought on stage as a symbol of hope and salvation, inspiring the audience to consider donating.

Jim Monroe [27:03]: "When his blood was literally poisoning his own body, somebody substituted their blood on his behalf so he could be reborn."

6. The Clash of Beliefs

Janelle, an atheist, grapples with being portrayed as a savior figure by Jim, a devout Christian. While Jim sees her donation as a divine miracle affirming his faith, Janelle struggles to align her scientific understanding with the narrative being presented.

Janelle [38:59]: "I'm an atheist in the sense that I don't... I just can't think of a better way to say it."

The conversation delves into themes of faith, altruism, and the randomness of life events versus the belief in a higher power.

Jad Abumrad [52:03]: "I think that for the Christian, it's not about being good or bad. I think it's about having a relationship with God."

7. Radiolab's Role in Bridging the Divide

Faced with the challenge of presenting both perspectives, Radiolab hosts facilitate a dialogue between Jim and Janelle. They aim to create a balanced narrative that honors Janelle's atheistic viewpoint while acknowledging Jim's faith-based interpretation of the events.

Jad Abumrad [56:07]: "It doesn't lose me. I think it's phenomenally good. I'm not acknowledging as good. I just think that for the Christian, it's not about being good or bad."

8. Conclusion: Embracing Diversity in Belief

The episode concludes with an exploration of how differing beliefs can coexist harmoniously. Jim and Janelle maintain a deep friendship, grounded in mutual respect and the shared experience of life-changing generosity.

Janelle [62:00]: "The idea of humility, and... grace is absolutely essential, no matter your tenets of belief."

Radiolab emphasizes the importance of understanding and embracing diverse perspectives, illustrating how a single act of kindness can transcend ideological boundaries.

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Notable Quotes with Attribution and Timestamps:

• Latif Nasser [00:29]: Introduction to the episode's central story.
• Janelle [03:24]: Expressing her motivation to donate bone marrow.
• Janelle [05:56]: Jim's initial diagnosis and prognosis.
• Jad Abumrad [20:32]: Reflecting on the improbability of the match.
• Jim Monroe [27:03]: Describing the life-saving impact of the donation.
• Janelle [38:59]: Discussing her atheistic stance amidst Jim's evangelism.
• Jad Abumrad [52:03]: Differentiating between moral goodness and religious belief.
• Jad Abumrad [56:07]: Analyzing the statistical improbability of the match.
• Janelle [62:00]: Highlighting the role of humility and grace in their relationship.

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Key Takeaways:

• Altruism's Impact: A single act of generosity can profoundly change lives and forge unexpected connections.
• Faith vs. Science: The episode explores the tension between faith-based interpretations and scientific understandings of life's events.
• Human Connection: Despite ideological differences, genuine connections can transcend beliefs, fostering mutual respect and understanding.
• Statistical Miracles: The improbability of Janelle and Jim's match underscores the blend of chance and meaningful occurrence in human lives.

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Final Thoughts:

"Match Made in Marrow" is a compelling exploration of faith, gratitude, and the complexities of human relationships. Radiolab masterfully navigates the intricate dynamics between a grateful Christian recipient and his altruistic atheist donor, offering listeners a nuanced perspective on what it means to save a life and the beliefs that shape our interpretations of such miracles.

Transcript

[Latif Nasser]

Radiolab is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Jad Abumrad]

Listener supported WNYC Studios.

[Latif Nasser]

Hey, this is Radiolab. I'm Latif Nasser. Today, as we are in the thick of the giving season, we have a story about a really remarkable gift giver and gift receiver. Two people, basically strangers, who couldn't have been more different, but who managed to find a deep kind of connection despite those differences through a single gift. This episode was Originally reported in 2017 by yours truly, with Jad and Robert at the helm. Enjoy.

[Jad Abumrad]

Wait, you're listening.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay.

[Jad Abumrad]

All right.

[Janelle]

Okay.

[Jad Abumrad]

All right. You're listening to Radiolab Radio Lab from wnyc.

[Janelle]

Rewind.

[Jad Abumrad]

Hey, I'm Chad Abumrad.

[Robert Krulwich]

I'm Robert Krolwich.

[Jad Abumrad]

This is Radiolab. So we got an email from you.

[Janelle]

Yes, we did.

[Robert Krulwich]

Not long ago, our editor, Soren Wheeler and I, we got into a conversation with this woman.

[Janelle]

I live in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

[Robert Krulwich]

Her name is Janelle. Jenny.

[Janelle]

I like the Packers.

[Jad Abumrad]

Of course you do.

[Janelle]

Yeah, I guess photographer would technically be my job, but I do a whole lot of different things, none of which really pertain to the story at hand. That's.

[Jad Abumrad]

And our story really starts when Janelle sent an email to the Radiolab inbox, basically saying, I need your help.

[Janelle]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

Something had happened to her that was.

[Janelle]

Kind of wondrous and unexplainable and very weird.

[Jad Abumrad]

And as a result, Janelle had found herself stuck in a story. A story told to hundreds of thousands of people all across the country. A story that sits right smack dab in the middle of one of the biggest cultural divides in our country right now.

To see all of your faces.

But it was a story that wasn't hers. And she wanted us to help her find a way to finally tell her.

[Janelle]

Story, so to speak. Do you want me to kind of just turn on you? Sure. Well, When I was 18, I went to a concert.

[Jad Abumrad]

A rock concert.

[Janelle]

Yeah, it was actually. It was a warp tour. So it's like a festival of rock.

[Jad Abumrad]

Concerts and tons of bands on different stages all over the place. And Janelle is walking around between all the different stages and merchandise tables when she sees this tent, a 10 by.

[Janelle]

10 white tent with just the little.

[Jad Abumrad]

Table in front, a table with a.

[Janelle]

Sign on it that said, be a bone marrow donor. Sign up to be on the registry. Save a life, something like that.

[Jad Abumrad]

So this was rock music and good deeds brought together, essentially.

[Janelle]

Right. Which is a pretty good mix in hindsight.

[Jad Abumrad]

So Janelle read the sign, and she thought to herself, I'll sign up.

[Janelle]

Sure.

[Jad Abumrad]

Why not?

[Janelle]

Yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

Did you know what bone marrow was?

[Janelle]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

I mean, you knew that that would mean that they'd take a really long needle.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

And stick it in you and suck out bone stuff.

[Janelle]

Yeah. I suppose at that point, that was probably not the forethought. I think the altruistic, like, do something. Yeah. That was probably the main motivation.

[Jad Abumrad]

And all Janelle had to do, standing in front of that tent was sign some papers and swab her cheek. Because with a bone marrow donation, they actually have to figure out if you're a genetic match with someone who would receive the donation.

[Janelle]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

Which was part of what Janelle thought was cool about it.

[Janelle]

I always thought that, you know, it would just be an amazing opportunity to be the one person who could do something for somebody that, like, literally no one else in the world could.

[Jad Abumrad]

That's a deep kind of connection with someone there.

[Janelle]

Yeah. Yeah. There's. You know, I don't know if either of you are only children, but it's. Yeah. You know how. There's just, like, you have cousins, you've got friends, but at some point, there's. Not that it sounds so stupid, but that biological connection, like, besides my parents.

[Robert Krulwich]

Or whatnot, that you. You missed the idea of someone who was muchly like you and muchly in your world. And muchly.

[Janelle]

Yeah. And also, even the kind of. The need, like, somebody out there dependent on me on kind of that almost otherworldly level.

[Jad Abumrad]

So Janelle swabbed her cheek, signed the paper, and then went about her normal life. And then about six months later, she got a call.

[Janelle]

Yeah. Yeah. It was a phone call to my landline. That's how long I've been.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh, my gosh. So what year are we talking here?

[Janelle]

No, it's 2009. Okay. It was a phone call. And I remember very specifically, it was voicemail. Cause I hadn't had the chance to answer it. And they said something to the extent of, you know. Hi, we're from the National Bone Marrow Donor Registry. We've done some tests, and we've narrowed you down to be a preliminary match for a patient. So we need you to come in and do some further tests that involve blood and stuff.

[Robert Krulwich]

Did you think, oh, no, I forgot that I did that, or are you thinking, oh, boy? Or what were You.

[Janelle]

Oh, I was so I overcome with emotion. I remember just to think, think there's somebody out there that might be my person. So absolutely no hesitation on my end. I went, right.

[Jad Abumrad]

So Janelle heads into the clinic because, well, so bone marrow, the stuff in the kind of core of your bones, actually produces all your blood cells, and importantly, including your white blood cells, which are a key part of your immune system. So what you're doing with a bone marrow transplant is taking a healthy immune system out of one person and putting it into another person whose immun is, you know, cancer or messed up in some kind of way. The key is, though, because the immune system is that part of you that, like, recognizes you from not you and attacks anything that's not you. You have to, like, fool the new body into thinking that this immune system is them. And so the parts of your DNA that have to do with your immune system, a couple key parts of that have to match with the donor. So that's what they're doing with Janelle. They're taking her in to, like, test her DNA to see if the stuff that marks out her immune system matches closely enough with this, you know, recipient so that the bone marrow transplant will work.

[Janelle]

And then maybe a month later, I get, like, another call, and this one I was able to answer. And they say, well, we've done tests, and you are the ideal person in this 8 million person registry to donate for this patient. You are a perfect match. And will you do it? And I was like, absolutely.

[Robert Krulwich]

So did that feel to you, like the call of destiny? Like maybe this was meant to be then?

[Janelle]

Yeah. There's something I feel that's, like, bigger than myself that's happening. And I don't really. I mean, I can't really explain it yet at that point, but I know there's like, okay, there's a big thing. So I go in, and unfortunately, to disappoint you, Robert, the way that I donated bone marrow wasn't actually the real bad way with the big needle.

[Robert Krulwich]

I mean, I'm not disappointed. Grateful for whoever. Have they come up with a small needle version?

[Janelle]

Yeah, well, what they.

[Robert Krulwich]

Straw or something.

[Janelle]

Sort of what they essentially do, and this is actually the far more common way of doing it now, is they inject you with all these drugs, and it is like eight injections that boost your white blood cell count up to astronomical heights. And do, you know, like, when you get sick, when your immune system kicks in overdrive and you feel sick? Imagine that, like, eight times over.

[Jad Abumrad]

Just because I was nauseous achy, shaky.

[Janelle]

So achy. Every bone hurt.

[Jad Abumrad]

And while Janelle is feeling achy and sick inside of her, her bone marrow is pumping out a bunch of new.

[Janelle]

Baby blood cells, unmatured stem cells that can really become almost anything.

[Jad Abumrad]

Then they just go in and grab.

[Janelle]

Those cells, they harvest you, I guess. So you have a needle in both arms and you pretty much sit still for six hours until they suck all your blood out of your body, put it in a machine and give you back what they don't need. So I think they've got about, you know, one of those little IV bags.

[Jad Abumrad]

Just a quart sized plastic bag full.

[Janelle]

Of my stem cells. And once you're done, they put some band aids on you and they're like, all right, let us know if you need anything.

[Jad Abumrad]

And do you know anything about, like, what happens to your blood cells, like who gets it or what?

[Janelle]

Yeah, the whole registry is very, very strict about patient confidentiality. But they did tell me that it was a 29 year old man with acute lymphoblastic leukemia. And that's literally, that's all I knew for a whole year.

[Robert Krulwich]

Did you look that up in the.

[Janelle]

Oh, of course. I did endless Google searches of 29 year old man, acute lymphoblastic leukemia, trying.

[Robert Krulwich]

To get a real peek.

[Janelle]

Right. I was like, oh, maybe he's worded it that way and didn't find anything. Of course. But once that year is up, if both parties agree, then we can talk. And that's kind of really interesting because I definitely was looking forward to that year Mark. But once that hit, I kind of got cold feet. I really just wasn't ready to know exactly who he was. And then I was also worried that maybe this guy's like a real piece of crap, like maybe he's a Klan member or a criminal or something. So there's a part of that too.

[Robert Krulwich]

So you worry that you'd open up the Sentinel and it would say, formerly ill person robs three banks, hits old ladies.

[Janelle]

Yes.

[Jad Abumrad]

Horrible man. Saved by Janelle Jenny.

[Janelle]

Right? It's so stupid to say, but I thought that. So I did end up eventually sending this email or whatnot in I think about October. It took them a couple weeks to actually give my info to my patient and vice versa.

[Jad Abumrad]

I was eating lunch with a friend of mine and I remember having chips and guacamole.

[Janelle]

By the way, my patient's name is Jim. So they gave Jim my info and.

[Jad Abumrad]

My phone went off in my pocket. There was an email in my inbox and there was A scanned PDF attached to this email. And I opened it up and she had filled this out with her own hand. And I just broke. I just wept like a little baby in a booth in a Mexican restaurant in the middle of Grapevine, Texas. And I got on Facebook, I saw a picture, I saw a picture of her and I was like, oh my gosh, it's gotta be her.

[Janelle]

I'd gotten an email or not an email Facebook friend request from said this guy named Jim Monroe in Texas. And I was like, oh, okay, I don't know anybody in Texas. And then it clicked. All of a sudden, this is the guy. This is him. I can see his picture, I can.

[Robert Krulwich]

Look and oh, what does he look like?

[Janelle]

Not very much like me.

[Jad Abumrad]

It wasn't Janelle with shorter hair.

Tall, six before. I've got blonder hair.

[Janelle]

Blonde hair, I think.

[Jad Abumrad]

Fake blonde, I should say. It's dyed right now, but I have.

[Janelle]

Like strawberry blonde hair, but tall, blonde haired, blue eyed, white guy, blue eyes.

[Jad Abumrad]

I'm very handsome.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah, what are you by the way?

[Janelle]

Short, blonde haired, blue eyed person.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah, we could be cousins, I think.

[Janelle]

And yeah, so I looked at all of his pictures and his wife who's a model and these kids were so adorable. And I tried to find as much as I can. And as far as his profession, I was like, oh, he appears to be some sort of magician, so I guess we'll talk about that later.

[Robert Krulwich]

So I don't even know, like, I guess why don't we just find out like where you're from and where you were raised and. Okay, let's do it that way.

[Jad Abumrad]

So I was born in Orange County, California, Fullerton, California. I went to school in Anaheim, High School in Anaheim, was a baseball player. So I ended up going. I was very, very good baseball player. I got drafted by the, at the time they were called the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. Now they're just the Tampa Bay Rays.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh, you were that good.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah, I turned down a professional baseball contract to go play at the University of Texas in Austin.

Why did you play?

I was a pitcher. I was a hard throwing right hander and ended up getting, like I said, drafted and went to the University of Texas to play baseball. And that's what I thought I was going to be. I thought I was going to be a professional baseball player. And then my sophomore year of college, I blew out my shoulder. I had a surgery my freshman year and then came back and was thrown harder than ever, then did it again. So baseball was kind of over, over.

[Robert Krulwich]

At like 19, like that's yes, sir.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah, it was a pretty. It was a big kick in the head.

But he finished up school.

They maintained my scholarship as a medical red shirt.

Majored in business and psychology.

Yeah.

Then moved up to Boulder, Colorado, got married and had a couple kids.

And one of my really good friends during this time was. His name was Tennyson, and he became one of my best friends. He was. He wasn't just my best friend. He was like my brother. He was an athlete, too. So he was a former college football player. And he had also lost his football career based upon an injury. And then also new magic, an illusion.

And magic was actually something that Jim had been fascinated by ever since he was a kid.

Yeah, I saw trade show magician when I was 10 or 11. It was at the Anaheim Convention center, of all places, at an optometric convention. Both of my parents are optometrists, and he was just doing trade show stuff at a booth.

Do you remember what he was doing?

He did a version of this trick called cards across. He made a cigarette appear. You got a.

[Robert Krulwich]

Which he pulled out of your head or out of somebody's.

[Jad Abumrad]

No, no. He's just casually holding his hand and was holding a zigzag in the tips of his fingers, and he goes to light it, and there's a puff of smoke, and there's a real cigarette.

Oh, and the thought you had at that moment was, I want to do that.

It was, how did he do that? And that is cool. And, you know, I'm gonna go learn how that's done. So I just began to look at card tricks and read books on how all this stuff was done to figure out how it was done.

So when he met Tennyson, you know, they started practicing together and doing shows in front of friends and family.

And pretty soon, sure enough, we start doing gigs.

They started doing these shows at, like, schools and festivals and stuff. And they would do these tricks, like, a lot of kind of card tricks and number tricks. Say we pick a random number, and it would end up. It was written on a piece of paper in the shoe of an audience member or something like that. But then the show would turn into something else. Because the thing is, Tennyson was a believer, overwhelmingly. So, like, believer, like in God, you mean? Yeah, a Christian.

And Tennyson was very convinced.

And so after an hour or so of magic tricks, just pure entertainment, Tennyson.

Would say to the crowd, this has been great. We're gonna take a quick break. We're gonna give you guys a chance to take off, because during the second part of this show, we're going to talk about what the Christian perspective is and why we believe this Christian thing. If you want to stick around, great. If you don't take off now, Jim.

Says during this part of the show.

Tennyson in particular was way more of the evangelistic piece of this, and I considered myself more of a producer now.

Jim had actually grown up going to church.

Yes, my parents went to Lutheran church. I was at one point doing that, but still there's, you know, at the end of the day, it was just. There was nothing in it that seemed to be satisfying.

And so at this point in the show, Jim would sort of stand back a bit as Tennyson talked about how magic is actually all about the unseen and behind the veil of reality, there's a God watching over us. And Jim says he would be standing there on stage watching these people in the audience who are feeling this real connection with God.

However, I wasn't having that experience.

He's just like, I don't feel what. What they're feeling. And he started to think to himself.

I didn't want to be the guy that said, well, I'm a Christian because my friends were, or, I'm a Christian because I was raised that way. I want it to be true.

And he just wasn't sure that it was right. And then after he and Tennyson had been doing this show for a year and a half or so, Jim got a call. Tennyson had been out hiking in the mountains just outside of Boulder, and he.

Was found in a river.

His body was partially submerged just at the edge of the water at the base of a 40 foot cliff in.

A peaceful valley is what it was called. No one really knows how he passed away.

It looked like he might have actually fallen from the cliff. The police thought maybe suicide, but it.

Could be, you know, exposure to the elements, that kind of thing. Yeah.

Jim says he was just, you know, devastated.

He's probably the closest male friend I've ever had.

Just felt like he was, you know, in the bottom of a hole.

Yeah, bottom of a hole, kind of figuring it out. Best friend passes away. My wife and I, as a result, kind of got into this really strange season where, you know, I'm depressed, she's depressed. We're pretty much on the verge of calling it quits. And then my leg starts hurting really badly.

[Robert Krulwich]

Where in the leg?

[Jad Abumrad]

Underneath my right knee.

Jim says he started popping Advil every day. At first just a couple, then more and more.

And I'm trying to gut it out.

Then he came home one day and he says the pain was so bad, he couldn't even get out of his car. And so his wife was like, look, we're going to the hospital now.

And I'm sitting there in an emergency room, and this man walks into my room and he looks at me and says, you have cancer.

Jim had leukemia, which is cancer of the blood cells.

So the white blood cells inside of your bone marrow have literally exploded out. And the reason why your leg hurts so bad is because your. Your bone is breaking on its own from the inside.

Wow.

And he said, if you don't do anything, you're gonna die in two months.

Just before Christmas of 2008, Jim checks into the hospital, and right away they do two things. One, they put Jim on the bone marrow registry in the hopes that he can find a donor. And two, just to keep him alive while he waits, they start putting him through round after round of chemo and.

Get this wicked concoction of stuff and.

Then be left, he loses his hair, his body starts to fall apart.

And all you can do at that point is just hope, you know, like.

[Robert Krulwich]

Tick, tock, tick, tock, tick, tock, tick, tock, tick, tock.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah. Yep. That's when you think you know, what you believe to be true is in. Is in adversity. That's when you find out. So for me, it was not. It was not a Christian worldview. If there is an all loving, omnipotent, powerful being that makes the universe go round, then why would things like, you know, suicide or murder or rape exist in this constructed world of his?

Jim just couldn't get himself to believe in the existence of a God like that or really any God, you know.

It wasn't any rhyme or reason or purpose. It's just, this is. This is my lot. This really sucks.

And then when he was at his lowest point, I remember driving back to.

Houston, Texas for more chemo, and my phone rang and I didn't recognize the number. And I said, hello. And this woman on the other line, she said, there's one person that we've been able to identify on the planet out of all the databases, everything. There's one.

[Janelle]

You are the ideal person in this 8 million person registry to donate for this patient.

[Jad Abumrad]

Think about that. This is in the world.

[Janelle]

You are a perfect match. Will you do it? And I was like, absolutely.

[Jad Abumrad]

My wife and I were in the car together, and it was just tears, you know, it was like, wow, that's amazing.

[Janelle]

So April 20th, and this is important to remember April 20th was when I donated.

[Jad Abumrad]

And as they were pulling the cells out of Janelle's body up in Wisconsin.

[Janelle]

You know, one of those little IV bags full of my stem cells down.

[Jad Abumrad]

In Texas, Jim's doctors were telling him.

Your bone marrow transplant is scheduled for April 23. On April 23, the nurses, they come inside of your room to celebrate your second birth. And then I remember Dr. Girault telling me, are you ready to put your boxing gloves on? Well, what he was preparing me for was a death. Come to find out later on, they pulled my wife out of my room, and they said, we're going to give this to him. With all this medication, he could potentially receive this and reject this violently and pass away.

Because, remember, they're essentially replacing Jim's immune system with somebody else's, in this case, Janelle's. And in a very real way, they're replacing that part of Jim that determines who he is with someone who he clearly isn't. And so there's a real chance that the body will just short circuit.

So they give you this drug the nurses nickname, shake and bake.

It's designed to basically wipe out whatever is left of Jim's immune system. His white blood cells put inside of.

Your IV and your body just starts convulsing.

And then they put Janelle's cells in.

And they monitored me.

And over the next couple weeks, Janelle's cells enter Jim's body, they get into his bone marrow, and they start producing new white blood cells, basically producing a whole new immune system. And eventually, Jim is cancer free.

I mean, it's literally like new life, you know? Now, I will say this. Some bells kind of began to go off in my head a little bit.

Jim says before he even got the transplant, his doctor had come into his room and told him, you're going to.

Be like a baby inside your mother's womb, literally being born again, because on April 23rd. And once again, this is their terminology, there's someone else that's going to be living on the inside of you, and this new system of blood is going to be your life. Why is that interesting? You know, April 23rd. My new birthday is April 23rd. My old birthday, it's April 20th. My new birthday is on April 23rd. That's on the third day.

[Robert Krulwich]

And on the third day is significant because of the biblical echo.

[Jad Abumrad]

The biblical echo? Yeah. I came back from whatever I was in because of the only blood on planet Earth that could save me and my disease.

[Robert Krulwich]

So does this land on you? The way it sounds to me like it lands on you now, or did you go through a. Like. Like what hap.

[Jad Abumrad]

Like those words? Yeah, those words in particularly bells went off in my head.

Does that mean that you now suddenly believe in God again or for the first time or.

I mean, it's process, right? You follow. And then I think the puzzle pieces are kind of all swirling and coming together. But everything changed on that demarcating day.

April 23rd, all thanks, obviously, to Janelle. And not long after they got each other's information and saw each other on Facebook, they hopped on a phone call.

So she gets on and I get on, but it's all kind of like, hey, oh, my gosh, this is crazy. I cannot believe this. Isn't this nuts? Yeah, this is so crazy. And then she drops this on me. She said, I went and got a tattoo of a jigsaw puzzle piece on the very spot where they stuck that IV in my arm to pull out the new blood, knowing that I was the missing piece in someone else's life, and without me, that person wouldn't be alive. And I said, do you. I was like. I was thinking, do you have a ton of tattoos? And she said, no, I have one. You know what Christians believe to be true, right? What is that? Their savior rolled up and showed them the very spot on his body where blood came out so that they would believe.

[Robert Krulwich]

So you're just going down this road. You're driving, like, at 100 miles an hour towards. Towards this.

[Jad Abumrad]

For me, it was like I was being introduced to a person. There was an experiential understanding of that which was going on behind the scenes of this existence that was answering my prayer.

[Robert Krulwich]

The prayer is for is. The prayer is called are you there? That's the prayer.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yep.

Are you there, God? Basically, Jim saw Janelle and her donation to him as almost more than just allegory, as like something close to a literal proof of the existence of God. Like a very real, very present sign.

I told her to. I told her that we need to meet. I said, can I please bring you out to Dallas, Texas?

[Janelle]

He said, I have to bring you to Texas, which is my nightmare. I'm just kidding, but absolutely. I wanted to go right into it.

[Jad Abumrad]

I remember her tone. She's like, yeah, sure. Super excited. So, yes, I flew her to Dallas, Texas.

Mike, scam rack coming down.

I actually recorded it.

Somebody you met?

This girl saved my life.

Oh, really? That's awesome. In the video, you see Jim sort of standing at the bottom of this escalator. In the Dallas Fort Worth airport. He's, you know, looking pretty thin and pale and nervous. And then the camera turns and there's Janelle. Hi. Coming down the escalator. And they hug. And then his kids come up.

[Janelle]

Hi, can I walk too? A, you're so cute.

[Jad Abumrad]

And eventually his wife.

[Janelle]

Nice to meet you.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay, so. So now you go home.

[Janelle]

We go to his house. To his home. Right. And he lives in a very big house outside of Dallas.

[Jad Abumrad]

They had dinner with the family and then, you know, once everybody else was kind of heading off to bed, Jim and Janelle started to talk.

[Janelle]

And I think if I remember correctly, we were just outside by the pool and just talking and figuring out who each other was. And I was like, so, magician, what is that? He started telling me about what kind of magician he really is. And he is a Christian magician.

[Jad Abumrad]

I'm sure in the. Nevermind. She's thinking, oh my gosh, I just saved a Christian magician from Texas life. Joke's on me. Isn't that wonderful?

When we come back, Janelle becomes Jim's greatest magic trick.

[Robert Krulwich]

So don't go away.

[Jim Monroe]

Radiolab is supported by Intuit. TurboTax Taxis was waiting and wondering and worrying if you were going to get any money back. And then waiting and wondering and worrying some more. Now taxes is matching with the TurboTax expert who can do your taxes as soon as today. An expert who gives your taxes their undivided attention as they work on your return while you get real time updates on their progress so you can focus on your day. An expert who will find you every deduction and file, every form, every investment, every everything with accuracy. All so you can get the most money back guaranteed. No waiting, no wondering, no worries. Now this is taxes. Get an Expert now on TurboTax.com only available with TurboTax Live full service real time updates only in iOS mobile app. See guarantee [e-mail] guarantees.

[Jad Abumrad]

Radiolab is brought.

[Janelle]

To you by BetterHelp. Every January you get an entirely new year ahead. Three hundred and sixty five blank pages.

[Jad Abumrad]

You get to fill with whatever you want.

[Janelle]

You can add a plot twist, you.

[Jad Abumrad]

Could add a love interest.

[Janelle]

Maybe you want a whole new chapter with a family member.

[Jad Abumrad]

However you want to write the story.

[Janelle]

Of 2025, BetterHelp is here to help you make the moves you want. And with BetterHelp it is fully online making therapy affordable and convenient. Serving over 5 million people worldwide, you can access a diverse network of more than 30,000 credential therapist with a wide range of specialties for any plot point in your story and easily switch therapists anytime at no extra cost. Write your story for 2025 with Better Help. Visit betterhelp.com Radiolab to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp H lp.com Radiolab.

[Latif Nasser]

Radiolab is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. Radiolab is supported by Rocket Money. Managing finances can feel complicated and time consuming, right? But it doesn't have to be. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and aims to help lower your bills so you can help grow your savings. See all of your subscriptions in one place, and for those you don't want anymore, Rocket Money can help you cancel them. Rocket Money's dashboard also gives you a clear view of your expenses across all of your accounts and can help you easily create a personalized budget with custom categories to help keep your spending on track. Whether your goal is to pay off credit card debt, put away money for a house, or just build your savings, Rocket Money makes it easy. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Just go to rocketmoney.com rl today. That's rocketmoney.com rl.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay, we're back. I'm Jad Abumrad.

[Robert Krulwich]

I'm Robert Krulwich, this is Radiolab.

[Jad Abumrad]

And okay, let's return to a story from Soren Wheeler. So, Soren, you left us in the backyard. They were about to talk, right? Yep. Sitting in Jim's backyard by the pool. And he's basically telling her his whole story about his sort of loss of faith and the cancer and how she saved his life. And then he tells her that right after she saved him, he started doing the magic show again, that show that he used to do with Tennyson.

[Janelle]

And the show is called the Maze.

[Jad Abumrad]

My name is Jim Monroe. This is the Maze.

So we actually got to see Jim's show and I have to say, he's a pro. It's an impressive production. He gets big venues over here, ready.

To have some fun tonight.

Usually thousand people or so. There's crazy laser light show stuff and he does these really complicated illusions that are sort of half Penn and Teller, half David Blaine.

[Janelle]

Like for example Taking a random phone number out of the phone book, 4700. And it ends up being someone in the audience.

[Jad Abumrad]

And then their phone will end up.

[Janelle]

Like, hidden somewhere, something like that. And they're very good.

[Jad Abumrad]

So Jim is telling Janelle about all these tricks, but then he says, the.

[Janelle]

Second half of the show is about us.

[Jad Abumrad]

He explains that the magic show at this point ends. He tells people they can leave if they want to. And he starts to talk openly, confessionally, to the audience, where I quickly found out that I had cancer, in very personal terms, about what happened to him.

So my wife and I raced down to MD Anderson Cancer center, and at.

A certain point, he shows a video.

Been off chemo now, but they say that the stuff in the chemo is really starting to kick in because I can't keep. I can't keep anything down.

He's in the hospital.

My mouth is dry.

Throwing up into a bucket. And he's pale, thin, huge circles under his eyes. And then he explains that right when he was on the edge of death.

[Janelle]

That at his lowest point, this thing happened.

[Jad Abumrad]

A miracle happened.

One person, just one.

[Janelle]

When his blood was literally poisoning his own body, somebody substituted their blood on his behalf so he could be reborn. I guess, three days after his birthday.

[Jad Abumrad]

On the third day, I came back from the dead. It was the only blood on the planet that could stimulate my disease.

[Janelle]

So there's a whole three days thing there, which is a story of Easter and the rebirth. It's a story. I mean, he sees this as, like, definitive proof that there's a God.

[Jad Abumrad]

I am either the statistical anomaly that continues to propagate this false ideology about supernaturalism and miracles. I'm either that statistical anomaly so wild that it's like being bitten by a shark and struck by lightning at the same time twice in the same lifetime, or you might have to believe what I believe is true, and that is there is some bigger one on behind the scenes. And his name is Jesus.

[Janelle]

So, yes, this is all being thrown at me.

[Jad Abumrad]

And is he saying all this to you by the pool? Is it all. It all comes tumbling out?

[Janelle]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

And how are you? How are you feeling inside?

[Janelle]

Stranger and stranger, going down the wormhole. Because I am an atheist in the sense that I don't. I don't believe in the tenets of Christianity. I don't believe really in the tenets of any established religion I've ever seen. Honestly. I just think that once things are labeled and you're pigeonholed and the exclusivity of really any religion is the cause for a lot of problems throughout history. But faith can be beautiful. And there's definitely parts of me, and there's moments in my life that boy praying and really feeling like that was going out to somebody would feel great, but I just can't. I just can't do it. So at that moment, he's telling me this, and. Yeah. And he's like, well, you know, you're here in Texas for this weekend, and would you be willing to come on stage for one of my shows so I can introduce you? And of course, I said yes.

[Jad Abumrad]

Really?

[Robert Krulwich]

Of course.

[Jad Abumrad]

Of course you said yes.

[Janelle]

Yeah, of course. I've always kind of looked at our story as something bigger than what he believes, than what I don't believe. It's bigger. It's capital B, underline bold.

[Jad Abumrad]

It's big partly because Jim, at every show, he has the bone marrow registry people right there ready to sign folks up.

[Janelle]

And because of the show they just saw, he can get in hundreds. I know that dozens of people have gone on to be matches. So this was truly the culmination of. From the. The moment I signed up to be on that registry, this felt like the zenith of this entire thing. So next night at Texas Christian University, packed house.

[Jad Abumrad]

Janelle's in the audience.

[Janelle]

I was in, like, the front row.

[Jad Abumrad]

And during the second part of the show, when Jim goes through the rebirth part, he stops and he says, guess what, everyone? That person who saved my life, she's here.

[Janelle]

He has me walk up on stage. Crowd went wild. The first time in my life, I got a standing ovation.

[Jad Abumrad]

Because you're Jesus. That's why the castle's crazy, is because.

[Janelle]

Yes. Yeah. All of these kids in the audience, who are all pretty much my age as well at that point, are seeing my being on stage as the quite possibly the biggest proof they've ever had that there is a God.

[Robert Krulwich]

Were you now, was there any part of you that said I shouldn't be here, or were you all there?

[Janelle]

There was a part of me that felt a little bit of an imposter.

[Jad Abumrad]

But for Janelle, she says that feeling was outweighed just by the number of people that were lining up at the bone marrow donation table. And so the next time she had a chance, she did it again and again and again. She's now appeared at the end of the show around a dozen times all around the country, playing the role of Jim's personal savior. And she says the more time she did it, the more that feeling, that sort of fraud feeling kept popping up. Each time a little bit louder.

[Janelle]

Yeah, there's parts of me, there's little fibers in my being that are like, wow, if this is a sign, if there is a God, I'm a real jerk. This is such a beautiful and really literal story being told to me about, like, hey, you know, maybe there is a God.

[Jad Abumrad]

She says she started to feel that, like, if she's both perpetuating that story.

[Janelle]

And refusing it, there's special place in hell for me.

[Jad Abumrad]

And this is why Janelle got in touch with us, because she wanted us to help her figure out a way to tell a story that let her way of seeing the world into the room.

[Robert Krulwich]

So let's stay tuned for that.

[Jim Monroe]

Radiolab is supported by Intuit TurboTax taxes was dealing with piles of paperwork and frustrating forms and then waiting and wondering and worrying if you were going to get any money back. Now Taxes is easily uploading your forms to a TurboTax expert who's matched to your unique tax situation. An expert who's backed by the latest technology which cross checks millions of data points for accuracy. While they work on your taxes, you get real time updates on their progress and you get the most money back guaranteed. All while you go about your day. No stressing, no worrying, no waiting. Now this IS Taxes Intuit TurboTax get an expert now on TurboTax.com, only available with TurboTax Live. Full service real time updates only in iOS mobile app. See guarantee [e-mail] guarantees Radiolab is supported.

[Latif Nasser]

By the John Templeton foundation, funding interdisciplinary research and catalyzing conversations designed to inspire awe and wonder, dive deeply into the wonders of the [e-mail] Radiolab is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. Radiolab is supported by Rocket Money. Managing finances can feel complicated and time consuming, right? But it doesn't have to be. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and aims to help lower your bills so you can help grow your savings. See all of your subscriptions in one place, and for those you don't want anymore, Rocket Money can help you cancel them. Rocket Money's dashboard also gives you a clear view of your expenses across all of your accounts and can help you easily create a personalized budget with custom categories to help keep your spending on track. Whether your goal is to pay off credit card debt, put away money for a house, or just build your savings, Rocket Money makes it easy. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Just go to rocketmoney.com rl today. That's rocketmoney.com.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay, we're back. I'm Jad Abumrad.

[Robert Krulwich]

I'm Robert Krulwich. This is Radiolab. And we are telling you the story of a woman who saved a man's life. The man is so thankful that he comes back to Jesus, wants Christians across the country to hear his story and wants this lady to help him tell it. But she's an atheist, so we're now gonna help her find a way to tell her side of the story.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay, Are you guys, is everyone there?

[Janelle]

I'm here.

[Latif Nasser]

Jim, can you hear us?

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah, I can hear you guys. Janelle, can you hear me?

[Janelle]

I can.

[Jad Abumrad]

How are you?

So our producer, Latif Nasser, actually started talking to Janelle about what exactly she wanted to do, and they decided that we should just all get in the studio, Jim and her and all of us, and see if we could hash it out.

Okay.

[Latif Nasser]

But I guess like, Janelle, do you want to just kind of talk through what we've been thinking?

[Janelle]

Sure, I can try. And if you want to help me, Latif, essentially, Latif and I have been talking about what would be the best way for me to kind of tell my side of the story. Yeah, my side of our story, so to speak, without so much of the religious stuff.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah. So when are you guys gonna do that? Maybe I missed the point. I'm sorry. So do you say we, as in, like we are going to do a version of that?

[Janelle]

Well, I thought you could help me.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, cool. Well, I would have no problem.

[Janelle]

Yeah, kind of. Just because you are so not only a magician with magic things, but also with words.

[Jad Abumrad]

Uh huh.

[Janelle]

So maybe if we could. If you could help me, so.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah, totally. That's so interesting. My mind begins to spin and I have a tension.

So at first we suggested maybe Janelle could come out at the end of one of Jim's shows and just read a statement or something. And Jim said, you know, that's probably not going to work.

As you guys know, in this world, there's, I mean, audiences come based upon how things are marketed and booked.

And Jim said, you know, he has to worry about sort of as a business, the expectations of his of his sponsors, and even the audience who are. Who are looking for a certain thing.

Like a producer, because I'm totally up.

So we were like, yeah, okay, fair enough. Maybe we could be like a Q and A after the show or something like that.

I don't know. I'd have to really process it, but I'm totally open to it. I would always loved to help Janelle figure. I mean, help her put it all together. And, like, I think, though, that.

So eventually we landed on a plan. Jim was going to be doing his show up in St. Cloud, Minnesota, and we decided, well, we could just do a show with him and Janelle the next night. So along with producers Lotif Nasser and Annie McKeown, we headed up to St. Cloud, met up with Janelle, and that night we went to all go see Jim's show. It's a pretty big venue. There was probably like a thousand people there, all college students. And of course, because Janelle was there right after he did the sort of personal journey back to God.

Check this out.

Come up to it. She's here today. It's a little bit hard to hear, but there was literally like a shudder of energy that went through the crowd at that moment.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to stage. This is Janelle. Jenny, come on up here. So, yeah, I got your accent.

[Janelle]

Well, you're the much better speaker than me, but. But what I can say is I encourage all of you to consider.

[Jad Abumrad]

So Janelle just pointed out that the National Bone Marrow Registry would be there that night, and she encouraged everybody to, you know, sign up and have a chance to save a life and do something good.

[Janelle]

So please do that, or at least consider it.

[Jad Abumrad]

Show the tattoo.

[Janelle]

Oh, yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

And then Jim had her show the whole audience her puzzle piece tattoo.

[Janelle]

Only one still there it is right there.

[Jad Abumrad]

And once Janelle had stepped back off the stage, before we close, I wanted.

To know if I could pray for you. Do you guys still pray in Minnesota? Down here is like, hell, yeah, we do.

[Janelle]

All right, good.

[Jad Abumrad]

We're praying. All right. So would you mind. I told you you could leave. I want you to pray this prayer with me. Just say this in your heart. Say, lord Jesus, tonight I choose to turn and stop living for myself My own version of my own story. And I want to trust you. I don't have all the answers, but I know you do. And tonight, by faith, I choose to follow you. Thank you for loving me.

Thank you.

In the midst of all of this randomness that I experience coming after me for being jealous for me, I Love you too. In Jesus mighty name, Amen. And amen.

And then just before everybody stepped out.

Also, this is very important. I'm gonna be here another night.

I'm gonna be here.

We're gonna be here tomorrow night. Have you got guys heard of the podcast Radio Lab? Heard of Radio Lab.

That was about three people that shouted out. They're in the audience.

I'm just going to sit.

I'm not going to point them out.

[Latif Nasser]

But they're in the audience.

[Jad Abumrad]

Nobody cared.

Randy Lab is going to be holding this forum. Janelle, Jenny is going to tell her side of the story of what happens to her through this process. All right, all right.

So after the show, we actually got a chance to talk to some of the people from the audience. And then hearing the whole three days.

[Janelle]

Thing, like, I was like, oh, my God, that's.

[Jad Abumrad]

Wow.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh, my God.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah. I couldn't believe that she was actually here.

[Janelle]

She's here in there.

[Jad Abumrad]

Think about it.

I would have been so shocked to.

[Robert Krulwich]

Sit right next to her.

[Jad Abumrad]

Pretty much everybody was totally floored by actually getting to see Janelle in person. And they all seem to take her story the way Jim does. She was a visual example of everything.

[Janelle]

Put a face to this whole thing.

[Jad Abumrad]

So many things fell mind where you.

Just have to believe, in my opinion.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the next night.

[Robert Krulwich]

Good evening, everyone. Welcome.

[Jad Abumrad]

My name is Mark Spring with much less fanfare in a much smaller room, like maybe 100 people there or so with the help of the religious studies program at St. Cloud University.

[Robert Krulwich]

Hear me. Okay. Yes, there I am. Oh, my gosh.

[Jad Abumrad]

We did Janelle's thing.

[Robert Krulwich]

All right, so I'm Robert Pulwich. I am one of the co hosts of a public radio program. They call it Radiolab. I want to introduce also Soren Wheeler, who is our managing editor, who's going to. That's him. He's going to be adding his two cents from time to time. We're a very democratic show and, like, nobody controls anything and everybody pitches in, so he will, too. And I want to begin by just telling you a story.

[Jad Abumrad]

So we brought Janelle up on stage.

[Robert Krulwich]

But Janelle, could you just come up here and sit? I guess. Might as well sit here.

[Jad Abumrad]

We told her whole story of, you know, donating and then waiting a year to find out, you know, who Jim really was.

[Janelle]

Talk or. I had no idea.

[Jad Abumrad]

And then we brought Jim on stage.

[Robert Krulwich]

So Jim, the year is up.

[Jad Abumrad]

He talked about, you know, his whole.

Process of recovery, trying to get your bearings.

He talked about how grateful and thankful he was. And then we turned back to Janelle.

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, let's make this a little more complicated. Soren, could you just run? I asked you, like, how you felt in that first round, and this is what you told me in the interview.

[Janelle]

There was a part of me that felt a little bit of an imposter.

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, now, why would you use the word imposter? Why did you choose that word?

[Janelle]

So we should start getting into the meat and potatoes of my thoughts.

[Robert Krulwich]

I think so, yeah.

[Janelle]

Part of me and at that time especially thought that I'm up here again as this pretty hard and fast proof or very compelling narrative for a lot of people and their faith that I don't particularly share at all.

[Jad Abumrad]

Can I ask a question?

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

But knowing that you knew it at that point.

[Janelle]

I think we talked about that in the.

[Jad Abumrad]

But I was very concerned knowing that you, who, you know, didn't agree with what I believed to be true, that you would feel like you were in that spot. That's why I asked you.

[Janelle]

Of course, and I could have declined.

[Jad Abumrad]

But at the same time, it doesn't make anything different than the fact that it's still what it is, you know?

[Janelle]

Exactly. I would have done it, regardless of whatever it was. If your whole theme of your show was how great the Dallas come and it got everybody to join the bone marrow registry, I would have got up there in a Cowboys hat. Honestly, Jim, every time I see your show, even though I don't, you know, adhere to the religious tenets of it, I still get that feeling. And everybody, all my family, all my friends, whatever, they're religious, even my Muslim friends that I've told this story get, you know, that feeling, and you know what that feeling is, is a little intangible, but I think it's something even a little bigger than that. Sounds so crappy to say bigger than Jesus. That's really blasphemous, but I can't think of a better way to say it.

[Robert Krulwich]

Can you explain what that means?

[Janelle]

Well, you know that there is good in this universe and there is good in everybody. And it is, regardless of the goodness is at the top of the list of you and everything else as follows. Your religion and your race and where you were born and your favorite pizza toppings and all of that. But at the very top is good with the capital G. And it's underlined, too.

[Robert Krulwich]

All right, Jim, in your show, you have a rather gorgeous take on moral relativism. You have a string of thoughts that this idea about being good and doing no harm and living as ethically as you know how is satisfying to some people. But in your view, it isn't really enough.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah, this is where we. I mean, obviously there's some disagreement here. I think that there is good and I think that there is evil in this world. And I think that people in and of their own, left to their own vices, left to own devices, I think that they struggle with being good. I think that even on our best day, I think that we fall short.

[Robert Krulwich]

And so in hearing her account, you just say. You just thinking what? That she's not. Where does she fall short? Where does this idea lose you?

[Jad Abumrad]

I don't. I mean, it doesn't lose me. I think it's phenomenally good. I'm not acknowledging as good. I just think that for the Christian, it's not about being good or bad.

[Robert Krulwich]

What is it about?

[Jad Abumrad]

I think it's about. I think it's about having a relationship with God. Does that make. Does that make sense?

[Robert Krulwich]

I guess it makes sense.

[Jad Abumrad]

At that point, Jim, you know, he made it clear that he definitely wasn't condemning Janelle because she didn't have a relationship with God. But then we took a sort of different approach. We started talking about the unlikeliness of this whole story, which is one of the things that Jim talks about in. And so at that point, I decided I should jump in. And I say this, and I really say this only because it is our job as a show that when we hear a story like this, we dig in, we investigate, and we do that from a frame that really focused on math, facts, science. And a couple things happen to you if you happen to be in my position. You run across stuff like this, and I'll just read from the Be A Match website. A patient's likelihood of finding a match donor on Be the Match registry is estimated to be between 66 and 97%. The chances that you'll find a 10 to 10 match in the way that Jim and Janelle were 10 matches is around 50%. Wait a second, wait a second.

[Robert Krulwich]

That doesn't make sense to me. Well, it doesn't because there were 6 million people. She was the one.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah. Let me say that this does not actually contradict with Jim and Janelle's experience of it. For that to happen to Jim is truly staggering. It is truly. It could be one in a trillion. You know, like the way winning a lottery is one in a trillion.

[Robert Krulwich]

But how could. It can't be both. One in.

[Jad Abumrad]

It can, because what happens is if you back up, away from the individual and ask not what are the chances this would happen to Jim, but what are the chances that this would happen to someone somewhere. It's like there's a story about if you're golfing and you hit a golf ball and it goes however many hundreds of yards. I don't play golf, so I don't know how far they go, but. And it lands on a blade of grass, and that blade of grass says, why me? Why would this golf ball crush me like this? Which is a valid point. I would feel that too. But that ball was going to land on some blade of grass. So it doesn't like the. Why me is still a true thing. It is a true experience in which.

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, there is still this difference. I think the bull can't point to anything greater.

[Jad Abumrad]

No, the argument that lurks behind this is that these things happen and it is just chance.

[Robert Krulwich]

So this is the random view. How do you guys feel about that? That you were randomly there and you were randomly chosen isn't the word you were. The ball of mercy landed on you.

[Jad Abumrad]

But I'm not. I also am not coming at it from just that angle. I mean, I want. I wonder if it was just the bone marrow transplant, if it would be. People get that all the time. I think perhaps the other bits and pieces of the puzzle maybe help shadow it in, you know, a little bit for me. And so I don't know. To me, it's a multi layered cake.

[Robert Krulwich]

I thought you really don't like this idea of, like, in this science version, there is no design and there is no first cause, except. Except the first random event that sets the thing in motion.

[Jad Abumrad]

Right.

[Robert Krulwich]

Do you both. Could either of you live with that version of what just happened to you?

[Janelle]

Yeah. Well, that's perfect because it's exactly what you talk about in your show with all the different cards.

[Jad Abumrad]

Janelle's referring to a thing in Jim's show where he talks about how unlikely any particular order of cards in a deck is.

[Janelle]

And the idea of a particular set of cards being dealt in a particular way is 52 factorial, which is pretty much impossible. It is impossible. I mean, it's an impossible number statistically. Right, Right. But yet you deal the cards and they happen right there. So this really gets into just the different viewpoints on the proverbial deck of cards and who's dealing them. Is it in a particular fashion? And I think that's what Jim believes is that there is a proverbial dealer. And I don't. I guess.

[Robert Krulwich]

Mm. And you agree that that's pretty Much the difference.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

I mean, having given thought to that, I believe that there was some sort of, you know, mind personality somewhere.

[Robert Krulwich]

The I believe part is where you stand. It is?

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. It is. It's faith.

[Robert Krulwich]

And, Janelle, you're his savior. I guess you saved his life, but in some way, you don't. You. You haven't. Do you worry about this at all?

[Janelle]

Yeah, absolutely. And even right now on this stage, there's a part of me that. In front of all of you that I'm sure a lot of you are at the show last night, there's a part of me that is afraid of disappointing, that I don't share what you believe to be true. I mean, your entire experience pretty much points the arrow that, like, I'm like, an alliteration of Jesus in your story. And that's really difficult to reconcile as someone who doesn't have faith. And it makes me sad sometimes because I think it would be a lot easier if I just believed exactly what you believed. And I think that I always am very afraid of letting that be known. Like, I'm super, like, clammy right now, just saying it in front of this many people. I just feel like people would see your story, and it's so tremendously compelling. It's unbelievable. And then see that. That last piece of this little puzzle literally doesn't fit at all.

[Jad Abumrad]

I mean, it's not like I haven't thought about that either and how you might feel. And I empathize, and I don't know how to answer that. You know, I just want to give you a hug.

[Janelle]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

There's an unconditionality to how I feel about you that I just. You can do no wrong in my eyes.

[Robert Krulwich]

Here's for you, the hardest thing. I was just trying to think about how difficult this must be. You have been saved. Your life has been saved by her. She is, in effect, your savior. And yet your belief is that unless she accepts Jesus, that in some sense, she's outside of grace. And, you know, I don't know what you believe about hell and heaven, but that she might be punished. So what do you do about this weird contradiction she's insisting. Nope, not for me. And you just think, oh, no, this is the way it is, and, oh, my gosh, is it hard for you?

[Jad Abumrad]

No, not at all. I'll tell you why, because it's not my place to do that. I'm very sorry to everyone who listens to this, whoever feels like they got judged by a Christian because it's Never their place to do that. And this is where I think most of the times and everybody listening to this podcast is placed, is kind of positioned or pigeonholed Christians. And what they don't understand is that I'm not commanded to do anything but to love and to start conversations. Right. I'm not the one. I'm. I'm not the. I'm not the one who is sent into the world to judge. All right, but what I. So. So putting it like that. I know. I know where you want to go with this.

[Robert Krulwich]

No, I'm just. This is actually an honest question. You have to love the judge that may not love the woman who saved your life. That's hard, I think.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah. But at the same time, that's not what I'm. That's not my place.

I have to say, I think we were sort of expecting that maybe there would be a sharper edge to the differences between Jim and Janelle. But to be honest, their conversation that night and. And their story started to feel like almost an allegory for how to move through the world and hold your differences, but still be one.

[Robert Krulwich]

Let me just finish this way. Do you have a sense between the two of you? Because obviously you stay very, very good friends. I mean, that's obvious. Is there something that either of you can say that explains why you can dignifiedly but emphatically disagree and still stay in such extraordinary close touch?

[Janelle]

I think the idea of humility, and as Jim might even say, grace is absolutely essential, no matter your tenets of belief, and that's really what's going to get you through conflict. So. Yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

And is it because you're in this big ocean of the world and the two of you are just little dots in it, and so whatever you think, it's still. You're in the big ocean, and there you are together. Is that.

[Janelle]

I think maybe, yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah. And.

[Robert Krulwich]

But do you have her bigness thing? Do you feel small?

[Jad Abumrad]

Do I feel small? Yeah, I feel tiny humility at its root. Word. The root is humus, which means dirt. So when you become humble, you become dirt.

[Robert Krulwich]

Now, I could see analogy.

[Jad Abumrad]

I could keep going. I could keep going. You know, God does with dirt as he creates things, but I won't go there. But you become dirt. And I think where we get hung up is that we want to be right, and that hasn't been brought into this yet. We want to be right. And right and wrong are the words. Right and wrong are dead. I think in relationship are deadly words. I think that saying I'm Right, you're wrong is not good for relationships. I think it's like, let's find where.

[Robert Krulwich]

Have you ever said you're right or you're wrong to her?

[Janelle]

No, Never said it to him either. I don't think.

[Jad Abumrad]

Never.

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, that's a nice place to land.

[Jad Abumrad]

I think so.

[Robert Krulwich]

I think we're done now. That doesn't mean we're done done. That means that I'm going to let these two people introduce the person who brought them together real early from the organization.

[Jad Abumrad]

At the end of the show, we had the bone marrow registry people there and encouraged people to sign up, and quite a few did, I think maybe 20 or so. But that was pretty much nothing compared to what Jim got at the end of his show.

[Janelle]

150 people. Wait, say that again. There's like 150 people signing up right now. Did you count them?

[Jad Abumrad]

That's our producer, Annie McEwen.

[Janelle]

It's at least that. Is this bigger than normal or is it always like this? This is a little bigger than normal. I think anytime that I'm actually in the show, it's a little bit better. So I've been told. And what is it?

[Jad Abumrad]

How are you feeling when you watch this?

[Janelle]

It's really overwhelming. Like. Yeah, it kind of makes me want to cry.

[Jim Monroe]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Janelle]

I mean, without you, this wouldn't happen. I. It's almost too big to think of.

[Jad Abumrad]

Sa. Well, thank you, Soren. Sure. No problem.

[Robert Krulwich]

This piece was reported by Latif Nasser, Produced by Annie McEwan with help from Bethel Habte and Alex Overington.

[Jad Abumrad]

Special thanks to Julie Schmidt with Be the Match.

[Robert Krulwich]

And by the way, they are one of the several bone marrow registries. This is the one that Jim and Janelle were connected to. It is called Be the Match. And if you want to donate, all you have to do is go to join.bethematch.org that's capital B, capital T, capital M. One word and you'll get a spit swab thing in the mail. And maybe, well, maybe you can save a life. It's free if you are under 45. So again, that's Join Bethematch.

[Jad Abumrad]

Also, thanks to Ginger Galvin, Bryce Harney and Stu True with the Maze and.

[Robert Krulwich]

To Mark Springer, Kevin Sharp, Jim Gray, Kelly Larson, and the rest of the wonderful faculty and staff at St. Cloud State University in Minnesota.

[Jad Abumrad]

All right, I'm Jad Abumrad.

[Robert Krulwich]

I'm Robert Krolwich.

[Jad Abumrad]

Thanks for listening.

[Robert Krulwich]

Hey, I'm Lemon and I'm from Richmond, Indiana.

[Jad Abumrad]

And here are the staff credits.

[Robert Krulwich]

Radiolab was created by Jad Am Album Rod and is edited by Soren Wheeler. Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser are our co hosts. Dylan Keefe is our Director of Sound design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Pressler, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Maria Paz, Gutierrez, Sindhu Nyan Sambandan, Matt Kielty, Rebecca Lacks, Annie McEwen, Alex Neeson, Sara Khari, Sarah Sandback, Anissa Vitza, Arianne Wach, Pat Walters, and Molly Webster. Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, and Natalie Middleton.

[Janelle]

Hi, my name is Tresa.

[Jad Abumrad]

I'm calling from Colchester in Essex, uk. Leadership support for Radiolabs science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation Science Sandbox, the Samans Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

[Jim Monroe]

Since WNYC's first broadcast in 1924, we've been dedicated to creating the kind of content we know the world needs. Since then, New York Public Radio's rigorous journalism has gone on to win a Peabody award and a DuPont Columbia Award, among others. In addition to this award winning reporting, your sponsorship also supports inspiring storytelling and extraordinary music that is free and accessible to all. To get in touch and find out more, visit sponsorship wnyc. Org.