Radiolab: "Mischel’s Marshmallows"

Date: March 9, 2009
Hosts: Jad Abumrad & Robert Krulwich
Special Guests: Walter Mischel (psychologist, Columbia University), Joan Allaire (science writer)

Overview

This episode explores the famous "marshmallow test" developed by psychologist Walter Mischel in the 1960s—a remarkable experiment designed to understand willpower and delayed gratification in children. The hosts, alongside Walter Mischel and Joan Allaire, dissect the experiment’s surprising long-term findings: the ability to delay gratification at age four seemed to predict future success, academic performance, and even body weight decades later. The conversation pivots to whether willpower is innate or can be taught, and what this means for us all.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Origin of the Marshmallow Experiment

[02:07 – 04:05]

• Walter Mischel explains: The experiment was inspired by observing his own daughters, particularly noting a big developmental leap in self-control around age four.
• Mischel set up a simple test with nursery school children at Stanford, offering a choice: one marshmallow now or two later, requiring the child to wait in an empty room.
• Host commentary: The experimental conditions were designed to be "pure agony" for kids, with no distractions—just the marshmallow's pull.

Quote:

• “Now that creates a lot of dilemmas.” — Walter Mischel [03:39]

2. Observing Kid Strategies (and Failures)

[04:12 – 06:14]

• The children adopted various strategies to distract themselves from eating the marshmallow (later, Oreo). These included sniffing, singing, turning away, or even cheating.
• Video descriptions: Some kids caved quickly, some lasted much longer, and many had creative tricks to make waiting easier.

Quote:

• “Some, to avoid the pull, went under the table. Some turned their backs and started singing a song.” — Jad Abumrad [05:32]

3. The Surprising Predictive Power of Willpower

[06:23 – 10:16]

• Years later, Mischel noticed a pattern: kids who waited longer for the treat were doing better in school.
• Mischel tracked down the original kids as teens and adults. Not only did "high delayers" have higher SAT scores (by as much as 210 points [08:22]), but they were also better behaved, less likely to be bullies, more likely to finish school, have better jobs, and even have lower BMI.
• The correlation stunned both researchers and hosts.

Quote:

• “The difference in the SAT scores is 210 points.” — Joan Allaire [08:22]

4. Nature, Nurture, and the Power of Tricks

[10:26 – 14:01]

• The hosts raise the question: Is this ability hardwired, or is willpower a teachable skill?
• Analysis of the experiment videos shows that all kids struggled—those who waited simply had better distraction strategies.
• The idea of "hot" (temptation-focused) versus "cold" (mentally distancing from the treat) thinking emerges. Many successful kids pretended the marshmallow was something else or used imagination to reduce its allure.
• Crucially: Mischel found he could teach kids tricks to improve their self-control in the experiment, such as imagining the treat as a picture.

Quotes:

• “The best kids simply had a better bag of tricks.” — Joan Allaire [12:25]
• “You can teach just that simple suggestion. Why don't you just pretend it's a picture frame?” — Joan Allaire [12:55]

5. Limits of Teaching Tricks & Unresolved Questions

[13:06 – 14:06]

• While tricks work in lab settings, Joan Allaire points out there’s no evidence yet that these skills transfer to real-life accomplishments.
• The real impact of teaching self-control strategies remains an open research question.

Quote:

• “You can’t go around drawing picture frames all day long.” — Joan Allaire [13:35]

6. Nature and Nurture—An Interactive Picture

[14:06 – 14:25]

• Walter Mischel’s conclusion: Willpower comes from a mix of genetics ('wiring') and environment/experience, dynamically shaping each other.

Quote:

• “The wiring and the experience are interacting and changing each other.” — Walter Mischel [14:06]

7. Outliers and Hope

[14:25 – 14:56]

• Robert Krulwich offers a wry personal take, reassuring listeners that early failures in self-control don’t doom a person for life—outliers exist.

Quote:

• “Before people take Mr. Mishal's views too close to heart, remember, there are outliers.” — Robert Krulwich [14:54]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Quote | Speaker | |-----------|-------|---------| | 03:39 | “Now that creates a lot of dilemmas.” | Walter Mischel | | 05:32 | “Some, to avoid the pull, went under the table. Some turned their backs and started singing a song.” | Jad Abumrad | | 08:22 | “The difference in the SAT scores is 210 points.” | Joan Allaire | | 12:25 | “The best kids simply had a better bag of tricks.” | Joan Allaire | | 12:55 | “You can teach just that simple suggestion. Why don't you just pretend it's a picture frame?” | Joan Allaire | | 13:35 | “You can’t go around drawing picture frames all day long.” | Joan Allaire | | 14:06 | “The wiring and the experience are interacting and changing each other.” | Walter Mischel | | 14:54 | “Before people take Mr. Mishal's views too close to heart, remember, there are outliers.” | Robert Krulwich |

Episode Flow & Structure

1. Introduction to willpower and New Year’s resolutions (00:32–01:23)
2. Mischel’s marshmallow experiment background and setup (02:07–04:12)
3. Kids’ strategies and behaviors in the study (04:12–06:14)
4. Long-term predictive findings and follow-ups (06:23–10:16)
5. Discussing nature vs. nurture in willpower (10:26–13:41)
6. Limits and open research questions (13:41–14:06)
7. Final thoughts on outliers and not taking results as destiny (14:25–14:56)

Tone & Style

The conversation is lively, curious, and open-ended, with frequent humorous asides and genuine wonder from the hosts. The show maintains a friendly, inquisitive, and non-dogmatic approach—inviting listeners to keep questioning even as it shares compelling science.

For New Listeners

Even if you’ve never heard of the marshmallow test, this episode captures the essence: self-control in childhood has astonishing predictive power for future success. But it’s not destiny. The evidence suggests we can learn the tricks of willpower—and possibly teach them to future generations.