Transcript

A (0:02)

You're listening to Radiolab from. From WNY and npr. Okay, you ready?

B (0:11)

Yep.

A (0:11)

All right, let's open the show today. Test, test, test. On a sunny street corner in New Jersey. So where are we now? We are on Washington street, which is the main thoroughfare in Hoboken. It's a nice day in Hoboken. People are out and about after work. Is that sangria? What are you guys doing here? And we're here with a guy. His name's John Horgan. I'm a sc. He's also a teacher. It is hot. And John is out today with our producer Lulu Miller, doing what he often does, which is to go up to someone he doesn't know. Me, sir, we're doing a survey. It'll only take a minute. At most a minute I can give you. And he asks them this one question. Here's the question. Will humans ever stop fighting wars once and for all?

C (0:58)

No. Because of greed and one upsmanship.

A (1:03)

To explain, John has been asking this question. Will humans ever stop fighting wars? For years. Because for him, this question, it's not just about war. It gets at something really basic. Do we feel we can change who we are? Any case, the first time it popped out of his mouth, it was 2003, and a friend had asked him to give a talk at a church just a few days after the first invasion of Iraq. And so here I was in this church, and I can remember the mood was very somber. I was determined to try to make people feel that, okay, this is a.

D (1:41)

Setback, but still, you've got to believe.

A (1:44)

That peace is possible.

D (1:45)

And I tried to list all the reasons.

A (1:49)

And as he was making his case and getting worked up, he looked at the 60 or so people who were there in the audience. He said, all right, how many of you here believe that war will end someday? And I think one or two people raised their hands out of 60. And John thought, wait, is this really who we are? And so that's actually when I started reading as much as I can about all these things and dug up some surveys from the 1980s. What he found was that about 20 years ago, people were asking this question, do you think war will ever end? Taking surveys. Now, granted, they were not the most scientific of surveys, but what the results seem to indicate is that we used to be optimistic. Back in the 80s, only one in three thought that war was inevitable.

B (2:38)

Summary

Radiolab: “New Normal?” — Episode Summary

Podcast: Radiolab (WNYC Studios)
Hosts: Jad Abumrad, Robert Krulwich
Date: October 19, 2009
Theme: Exploring the possibility of fundamental human (and animal) change—particularly whether our seemingly "ingrained" tendencies like violence, identity, and sociability are truly immutable, or whether choice, environment, and time can reshape what seems inevitable.

Episode Overview

Radiolab hosts Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich guide listeners through a series of stories that challenge the notion that "human nature" (or animal nature) is fixed—especially regarding violence and identity. Using scientific case studies and real-life narratives, the hosts question whether peace, tolerance, and transformation on a personal and societal level are possible, or whether we are simply destined to repeat our inherited patterns.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Is Human Violence Inevitable? (00:11–03:56)

John Horgan, a science writer and teacher, surveys people on whether war will ever end.
Results are disheartening: Most believe war is an intrinsic part of human nature, attributing it to greed and aggression.
The notion that violence is “too ingrained in our human nature” is widespread.

2. Can Animal Cultures Change? The Baboon Case Study (03:56–19:13)

Robert Sapolsky, a Stanford neuroscientist, tells a remarkable story about a troop of baboons.
After an outbreak of tuberculosis (spread via a tourist lodge garbage dump), all the highly aggressive alpha males die.
The surviving troop changes radically:
- Aggression drops dramatically; grooming and positive social behaviors increase.
- Even as new, outside males join, the peaceful culture persists.
The shift endures for over 20 years, puzzling scientists who assumed these behaviors were genetically predetermined.
Memorable Quote:
- “The new guys are learning. We don't do stuff like that here.” — Robert Sapolsky (13:35)
Sapolsky’s Hypothesis:
- The peaceful culture is reinforced by the females’ social interactions with new males.
- Early grooming by females “melts away” the aggressiveness.
Caveat from Evolutionary Biologist Richard Wrangham:
- Cautions this is an exceptional, not typical, case, and that deep structural change likely requires genetic as well as cultural change.
- “A baboon is basically a baboon until you get some kind of genetic change.” (17:13)
Implication:
- Even brief windows of cultural change can last and become "normal"—perhaps offering hope for human society.

3. Small Town, Big Change: Electing a Transgender Mayor (19:41–39:02)

Story of Stu Rasmussen, a lifelong resident of Silverton, Oregon (pop. ~9,000), who transitions to an openly transgender identity and is eventually elected mayor.
Stu’s journey:
- Begins with painted nails, then public cross-dressing, then breast augmentation, all while running the only local theater and serving on civic boards.
- Town’s reaction ranges from curiosity and gossip to outright disapproval and bigotry, with some worried for the town’s image.
The turning point:
- External protestors (from Westboro Baptist Church) come to town to denounce Stu.
- The community responds with a massive cross-dressing counterprotest—an affirmative gesture of local support.
Memorable Quotes:
- “I tried to discourage people from even giving them the time of day, saying, don’t give them any attention. I couldn’t get that to happen... 200 people, men in dresses, grandmothers, babies. It’s just amazing. That was the town; that wasn’t me.” — Stu Rasmussen (38:14)
- “Under the right circumstances, a small town can be like, the most progressive place on earth.” — Jad Abumrad (34:16)
Insight:
- Real change is possible—and can stick—when personal relationships, gradual transformation, and the "forced intimacy" of a small community break down stereotypes.

4. How Fast Can Nature Change? The Russian Fox Experiment (40:34–55:04)

The story of Dmitri Belyaev’s Siberian fox domestication experiment.
- Belyaev selectively breeds silver foxes for tameness and against aggression under the guise of fur farming (to avoid Stalin-era persecution).
- Within just 10 years, foxes become friendly, tail-wagging, and even puppy-like.
- Along with behavioral change, physical traits also shift accidentally: floppy ears, spotted coats, smaller teeth, thinner bones (“neoteny” or juvenile traits retained into adulthood).
Memorable Exchange:
- “How long do you think it would take to get foxes from being wild animals to... licking your face?” — Robert Krulwich
- “A long, long time....” — Jad Abumrad
- “Well, here’s the thing. Ten years is the answer.” — Robert Krulwich (44:56)
Scientific Insights:
- Changes stem from selection on neural crest cells in embryos, which shape not just behavior (adrenal response/fear), but also ears, fur, teeth, and bones.
- “When you select against aggression in animals, you’re changing the timing and the rate of development such that the experimental foxes are actually frozen as juveniles. They actually never really grow up.” — Brian Hare (50:01)
Parallels to Human Evolution:
- Humans, too, have trended toward smaller teeth and more gracile (less robust, more delicate) bones over tens of thousands of years—a "self-domestication" process that may correspond to increased sociability and reduced aggression.
- Wrangham and others speculate that as humans formed larger, more stable communities, cooperation—and the elimination of bullies—favored these changes.

5. Final Reflections: Are We Destined for Gentleness? (55:04–56:34)

Societies may continue “self-domesticating” as populations grow and peaceful cooperation becomes increasingly necessary.
Memorable Quote:
- “The winners will be the domesticated ones. Everyone will get more empathetic to each other because that’s the only way you survive. And we get gentler and gentler and gentler till lambs literally lie down with lions.” —Robert Krulwich, summarizing Wrangham’s theory (55:04)

Notable Quotes (with Timestamps & Attribution)

“Will humans ever stop fighting wars once and for all?” — John Horgan’s street survey (00:48)
“Too ingrained in our human nature.” — Various survey respondents (03:20)
“The new guys are learning. We don't do stuff like that here.” — Robert Sapolsky on baboons (13:35)
“So the ladies hang back while he’s out there biting and clawing... But if you make one small change, just remove the alpha male … everything is different.” — Sapolsky on the mechanism for change (15:07)
“A baboon is basically a baboon until you get some kind of genetic change.” — Prof. Richard Wrangham (17:13)
“Under the right circumstances, a small town can be like, the most progressive place on earth.” — Jad Abumrad (34:16)
“200 people, men in dresses, grandmothers, babies. It’s just amazing. That was the town; that wasn’t me.” — Stu Rasmussen (38:14)
“How long do you think it would take to get foxes from being wild, ferocious animals to being animals who would lick your... face after this kind of…?” — Krulwich (44:40)
“Ten years is the answer.” — Brian Hare (44:56)
“...neural crest cells... the argument is that actually when you select against aggression in animals, you’re changing the timing and the rate of development such that the experimental foxes are actually frozen as juveniles. They actually never really grow up.” — Brian Hare (50:01)
“We have domesticated ourselves.” — Wrangham (53:57)
“The winners will be the domesticated ones... and we get gentler and gentler and gentler till lambs literally lie down with lions.” — Krulwich (55:04)

Important Segment Timestamps

Introduction & War Survey: 00:11–03:56
Baboons & Cultural Change: 03:56–19:13
Small-Town Change (Stu Rasmussen): 19:41–39:02
The Russian Foxes—Fast Evolution: 40:34–55:04
Theoretical Human Self-Domestication: 51:12–55:04
Final Reflections: 55:04–56:34

Tone & Style

Inquisitive, hopeful but skeptical, with a sense of humor and wonder.
The episode blends personal narrative, field science, and evolutionary theory into an engaging storytelling format.

Summary

Radiolab’s “New Normal?” challenges notions of ‘fixed’ human or animal nature. Whether it’s baboons forming unexpectedly peaceful societies after catastrophe, a conservative town embracing a transgender mayor, or Russian foxes becoming puppy-like in a decade, the show argues that choice, culture, environment, and selection can all upend what we think is “normal.” While some changes take root slowly or in unexpected ways, there is reason—however modest—for hope that even deeply-embedded traits can change with the right trigger, context, or collective will.