Oliver Sipple

Summary

Radiolab: "Oliver Sipple"
Episode Date: September 22, 2017
Hosted by: Jad Abumrad, Robert Krulwich | Reporter: Latif Nasser

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Overview

This episode of Radiolab explores the life and legacy of Oliver Sipple, the man who prevented an assassination attempt on President Gerald Ford in 1975. The show delves into Sipple's heroism, the sensationalization and outing of his sexuality in the media, the fallout with his family, the impact on the LGBTQ+ movement, and the ongoing debate over privacy and public interest.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Assassination Attempt (01:36–07:14)

• Sarah Jane Moore describes the scene on September 22, 1975, in San Francisco, planning to shoot President Ford.
• As Ford exits the hotel, Moore pulls a gun but is thwarted when Oliver Sipple, a bystander, grabs her arm.
  • “I felt a man come up against me... I spun around to slap his face.” (03:11, Sarah Jane Moore)
  • The gunshot misses Ford, and Moore is tackled by police.

2. Who Was Oliver Sipple? (07:25–16:08)

• Sipple is described as an all-American, Vietnam veteran, and ex-Marine.
• He experienced PTSD and preferred to remain private after the incident.
  • “I'm a coward. I don't know why I did it. It was the thing to do at the time." (09:02, Sipple's quote relayed by a reporter)
• Sipple's quick action was chalked up to instinct rather than his military training.

3. Media Spotlight & Outing (10:43–20:09)

• Sipple becomes a national hero. The press paints him as an ex-Marine and Vietnam vet.
• The very next day, gossip columnist Herb Caen receives tips that Sipple is gay ("the hero who saved the President’s life is gay!” 11:12).
• Sipple was "out" in San Francisco but not to his family in Michigan.

4. The Role of Harvey Milk (13:05–18:34)

• Milk, a friend and political activist, informs Caen of Sipple’s sexuality in hopes of challenging stereotypes.
  • “It's too good an opportunity. For once we can show that gays do heroic things. Not just all that caca about molesting children and hanging out in bathrooms.” (18:08, paraphrasing Harvey Milk)
• Sipple is outed in the media without his consent.

5. The Fallout: Family, Identity, and Pain (20:44–33:40)

• Sipple faces intrusive questions from the press.
  • “My sexuality is a part of my private life... and has no bearing on my response to the act...” (32:45, Sipple at a press conference)
• His mother tells him she never wants to speak to him again, and his father says, “The next person that even said he had a son named Oliver, he was going to literally break their damn neck.” (36:09, Sipple’s brother relaying)

6. The President’s Response (37:18–40:56)

• After a press conference, President Ford finally sends Sipple a thank-you letter.
• Sipple writes back, pleading for Ford to call his family, hoping presidential contact might restore his relationship.

7. The Lawsuit and the Limits of Privacy (41:26–47:51)

• Sipple sues the newspapers for invasion of privacy.
  • Argument: Although Sipple was semi-openly gay in SF, the detail was private from his family and unwanted in the national spotlight.
  • Media contends it is newsworthy due to political context and Sipple’s public prominence post-heroism.
  • After years of litigation, the court rules against Sipple: “The value of that [newsworthiness] is more than the value of... this individual person's privacy.” (47:43, verdict summarized)

8. Legacy and Tragedy (49:31–End)

• Sipple loses support from his family and is marginalized by some in both the press and the gay community.
• Sipple’s later years are marked by isolation, alcoholism, and emotional pain.
  • “After this thing with Ford, it really fucked his mind up. Sipple was a broken guy after that... He was just down to nothing.” (52:17, Wayne Friday recollecting Sipple’s final years)
• Sipple dies alone at 47; his funeral is sparsely attended.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Sarah Jane Moore (on her plan):
  "I tried to stay back in the crowd, but I got pushed up almost onto the ropes in the front." (03:24)
• Oliver Sipple at press conference:
  “My sexuality is a part of my private life... has no bearing on my response to the act.” (32:45)
• Harvey Milk's rationale:
  “For once we can show that gays do heroic things.” (18:08, paraphrased)
• Sipple’s plea to Ford:
  "It is a very hard thing to have your mother and family not want to have any contact with you. I love my family, and I do not want to be separated from their love and companionship." (39:07, from Sipple’s letter to Ford)
• Daniel Lutzer on media ethics:
  “What makes something not an invasion of privacy is not that it's okay. It's that it's politically, you know, relevant… It doesn't mean that it isn't rude or that it doesn't hurt.” (48:13)

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• Assassination attempt and heroism: 01:36–07:14
• Media exposure & outing: 10:43–20:09
• Harvey Milk and community context: 13:05–18:34
• Press conference & Sipple’s own words: 30:50–32:52
• Falls out with his family: 33:09–36:09
• Lawsuit and legal debate: 41:26–47:51
• Final years and death: 51:41–58:29

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Episode Reflections & Tone

• The episode weaves empathy, investigative rigor, and a humanistic lens.
• There is a sense of heartbreak and injustice throughout; the tone is respectful yet mournful of how Sipple was swept up by politics, media, and the era’s prejudices.
  • "It feels like there's this one kind of man in the middle... and then there are all these forces around him... he's trampled by all of them." (49:50)

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Summary

Radiolab’s "Oliver Sipple" examines the unforeseen consequences of heroism and the public outing of a gay man in 1970s America. After preventing President Ford’s assassination, Sipple’s sexuality becomes front-page news—against his wishes—leading to familial estrangement, national conversation, and a landmark privacy lawsuit he ultimately loses. The episode thoughtfully explores individual dignity amidst the tidal forces of politics, activism, media, and history, raising profound questions about privacy, identity, and who pays the price for social progress.

Transcript

[Jad Abumrad]

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[Robert Krulwich]

All right. Okay.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

All right. You're listening to Radio Lab.

[Jad Abumrad]

Radio Lab from wnyc. Hey, I'm Jad Abumrad.

[Robert Krulwich]

I'm Robert Krulwich.

[Daniel Lutzer]

This is Radiolab.

[Robert Krulwich]

And today we are gonna start.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay, so let's start with our producer, Latif Nasser.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Okay, well, let's just go back to.

[Jad Abumrad]

San Francisco on a particular day at a particular time and a particular woman.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Hello.

[Jad Abumrad]

Hi, is this Sarah Jane?

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Yes, it is.

[Jad Abumrad]

Woman named Sarah Jane Moore. Sarah Jane. Okay, so this is San Francisco. The particular date was September 22nd. The particular time, 1975. It's a Monday morning. It was a nice day.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Oh, yeah. I don't remember anything different, so I assume it was a nice day.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay, all right, sure, sure.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

I was kind of, you know, in my own head.

[Jad Abumrad]

So, Sarah Jane, on this Monday morning, she wakes up early, drops her 9 year old off at school, runs a few errands, then she drives downtown to this. This big fancy hotel. What was the name of the hotel?

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

I think it's a St. Francis, isn't it? I'm 87 years old. Don't expect me to remember little details like that.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay, all right, fair enough.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Yeah, but at any rate, you know, I parked in the parking garage across. Right across from the hotel is a park, but there's a parking garage underneath. Walked over and walked across the street. There were. There were sidewalks on both sides of the street. There were people on both sidewalks.

[Jad Abumrad]

She joins the crowd across the street from the hotel. It was very crowded, couple thousand people. It's like. It's like a big scene.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

And there was a barrier, a rope barrier, right, keeping us back on the sidewalk. And my plan had always been to be back in the crowd, you know, and I was dressed like every other middle aged woman that was there.

[Jad Abumrad]

What were you. Do you remember what you were wearing? I mean, I'm sure there's.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Oh, there are pictures of it. Yes. I was wearing. I was wearing slacks. That was. That was at the beginning of when it was natural for women to wear slacks. I had a coat on and I was carrying a purse. And I went back into the middle of the crowd as I had planned to do anyway. I felt a man come up against me and socialized as I was in that day and time, I spun around to slap his face.

[Jad Abumrad]

She sees this guy there, big, strong guy, blonde hair.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Looked at him and realized that it was crowd pressure, that he had not done anything out of. Out of ordinary. So I turned back around and went on about my business. I was then pushed up the crowd pressure was such. I tried to stay back in the crowd, but I got pushed up almost onto the ropes in the front, right up on the curb of the sidewalk. That's where I had not planned to be. And he apparently was still right behind me. So maybe he was pushed up by the crowd also.

[Jad Abumrad]

And so Sarah Jane is just crammed into this crowd and she's just standing there.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Yes.

[Jad Abumrad]

And were you nervous?

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Oh, no. You set out to do something. And I was just going about doing what I had set out to do.

[Jad Abumrad]

So she waits and she waits and an hour goes by, and two and three. And then. And finally out of the hotel comes none other than the President of the United States, Gerald Ford. And he has police and Secret Service, and they're all coming. They're walking out of the hotel to.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Get in his car, which was parked there on the street.

[Jad Abumrad]

But he sees the crowd. Sarah Jane actually says. He looks directly at her and he waves. He waves to the crowd and everyone starts applauding and cheering. Now, right at that moment, Sarah Jane reaches her right hand into her purse.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

And pulled the gun out of my purse.

[Jad Abumrad]

A.38 caliber revolver. She cocks it. And then she takes aim right at Gerald Ford's head. And then. My God.

[Robert Krulwich]

My God. There's been a shot.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

But a shot. But Mr. Ford did not fall. We're being pushed back by the police.

[Jad Abumrad]

The bullet flies a few feet to the right of Ford, chips the wall behind him. Ford freezes in place.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Sarah Jane never planned to take a second shot.

[Jad Abumrad]

No. She's just still standing there with my.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Hand still in the air, holding the.

[Jad Abumrad]

Gun, looking over the smoking barrel of the gun. And she's got enough time if she wants it. But before she can take that second shot, the blond man behind her lunges at her, grabs her gun arm, pulls it down and deflects it for just that crucial second that these police officers nearby need to get to her. They tackle her, they take her gun, and they pin her to the ground.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

So I couldn't move.

[Jad Abumrad]

And by that point, the Secret Service has whisked off the President into the limousine.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

And I was immediately picked up and.

[Jad Abumrad]

Carried across the street into the hotel, arrested, and eventually she went to prison. And she served 32 years in prison. And then after that, was released on parole, and then we talked to her. I'm just not prepared to be told a first person narrative from the perspective of someone who's about to assassinate the President. That was not what I was expecting. I was hoping that.

[Robert Krulwich]

Wait, can you explain, though, why it is she decided to shoot the guy?

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah, why did she shoot? Well, Sarah Jane's never fully explained that. And in fact, when I asked her.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Well, this is not.

[Jad Abumrad]

She was like, I'm not going there.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

This is not an interview about what was driving me or about what I did or why I did it. This is an interview about Mr. Sipple. Sipple?

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah, Oliver Sipple. He's the random blond guy who just happened to be standing next to Sarah Jane Moore that day. The guy who grabbed her arm and saved the President's life.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

And he paid dearly for that.

[Jad Abumrad]

I actually called up Sarah Jane and had her tell that whole story because I was actually interested in what happened to all Oliver Sipple after that, because.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Had he not reached out and put his hand on my arm, somebody fired a shot, none of this would have happened to him.

[Jad Abumrad]

Wait, what happened to him? So Oliver Sipple actually died in 1989. But before we get to the story, I just want to give you a picture of the guy. So just Google search Oliver Sipple Ford or something.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Wait.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay, wait. I see the picture.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

See, look at that.

[Jad Abumrad]

He's a muscular guy, kind of blonde hair. He's a. He's a handsome guy. Yeah, he's a little bit James Dean and Marlon Brando had a baby. Kind of. He feels like an all American. He feels all American. There's something all American about him.

[Daniel Lutzer]

Thank you.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah. Yeah. We're bringing in another All American for this story.

[Daniel Lutzer]

Daniel Lutzer, an editor at Oxford University Press.

[Robert Krulwich]

And.

[Daniel Lutzer]

And a few years ago, it was, like, probably more than five years ago, I wrote an article about Oliver Sipple.

[Jad Abumrad]

But anyway, to get back on track.

[Daniel Lutzer]

September 22, 1975.

[Jad Abumrad]

Sarah Jane Moore fires that shot. Oliver Sipple grabs her arm.

[Daniel Lutzer]

The police wrestle Moore to the ground.

[Jad Abumrad]

And then the police actually grab Oliver, too, pull him inside the hotel to question him.

[Daniel Lutzer]

Cause there's initially some confusion about what he was doing there, and some thought that, you know, he might have been a suspect.

[Jad Abumrad]

And so he's in this hotel trying to light a cigarette, but he just couldn't do it because he was shaking so hard. Turns out Oliver had served two very rough tours in Vietnam.

[Daniel Lutzer]

Loud noises would make him very unhappy. I think this is the sort of thing we might call post traumatic stress disorder now.

[Jad Abumrad]

But when eventually Oliver started to calm down, the Secret Service were like, what are you even doing here?

[Daniel Lutzer]

It was kind of hard for him to answer because it's like he didn't even really know. It was just like, well, I don't know. I was taking a walk, and I.

[Jad Abumrad]

Just bumped into this. This huge crowd of people asked what.

[Daniel Lutzer]

Was going on, and people like, oh, like, Gerald Ford is gonna be here. You know, the President is gonna be here.

[Jad Abumrad]

So he said he thought I might as well see him. And then he was standing there for a couple hours until he saw a.

[Daniel Lutzer]

Flash of metal, realized it was a.

[Jad Abumrad]

Gun, reacted quickly, instinctively.

[Daniel Lutzer]

And then you guys all pulled me in here. That's how I came to be here.

[Jad Abumrad]

So he's questioned for three hours. He goes home, home to his fourth floor, Walk up, and there's a reporter there waiting for him. But he. He just want sort of be left alone. And he told this reporter, quote, I'm a coward. I don't know why I did it. It was the thing to do at the time. And then even after that, he just keeps getting phone calls from reporters. And some of them learned that he was a Marine. And so they would ask him questions like, oh, was it your. You know, was it your training? Is that why you did this heroic thing?

[Daniel Lutzer]

But he said, like, oh, you know, listen, don't mention any of that stuff about the Marines, you know, like, let's keep that under wraps.

[Jad Abumrad]

Quote, I'm no hero or nothing. But the next day, yesterday in San.

[Robert Krulwich]

Francisco, a shot fired.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oliver's story shot across the country. The aim deflected by an ex Marine, a Vietnam veteran named Oliver Sipple. His name's on television, that Marine Oliver Sipple on the front page of newspapers where there's headlines like, Ex Marine Deflects Weapon as woman Shoots. That's the LA Times Chicago Tribune Hero tells how he Deflected woman's arm. And so, despite his best efforts, Oliver becomes a national hero for a day.

[Daniel Lutzer]

And it appears that he sort of thought that would be it.

[Jad Abumrad]

Maybe his friends would give him a pat on the back, buy him a couple rounds.

[Daniel Lutzer]

And then, you know, over the next couple days, it all sort of like, rippled out of control, because that very.

[Jad Abumrad]

Same day that Oliver was being painted as a hero, this guy named Herb.

[Daniel Lutzer]

Kane, the longtime San Francisco San Francisco.

[Jad Abumrad]

Columnist, walked into his office and on his answering machine were two messages saying, hey, that guy Oliver Sipple, the hero.

[Daniel Lutzer]

Who saved the President's life is gay.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Huh?

[Jad Abumrad]

Was he. Was he out? Well, he was sort of out and sort of not.

[Robert Krulwich]

What does that mean?

[Jad Abumrad]

Well, to explain, you gotta understand this particular time and place. So let's just, you know, take a magic carpet ride, close your eyes, and let the sound take you away.

[Robert Krulwich]

A city has emerged where homosexuality is.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Not only tolerated, but thrives. San Francisco, sometimes labeled with a sly caption queen City of the West.

[Jad Abumrad]

So San Francisco, it's a great day. It's a gay day.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Happy day, happy day.

[Jad Abumrad]

Was one of the first cities in America to have a gay pride parade. And in the 70s, it's a wonderful city, this city. Boys go to bed with boys and.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Girls go to bed with girls.

[Jad Abumrad]

For gay people, San Francisco was like this shelter from the storm.

[Robert Krulwich]

Many of us were immigrants from somewhere. This is Ken Maley, longtime San Francisco.

[Jad Abumrad]

Resident and gay activist, who at the age of 19, came to San Francisco.

[Robert Krulwich]

From Kansas, escaped from Kansas because what the west offered was the ethereal promise, if you will, of reinvention. You could cross a line in which your past stayed behind you.

[Jad Abumrad]

It was a place where you could be out, but to the people you left behind, you could still be in. So, so and so for Oliver, you.

[Daniel Lutzer]

Know, he came from Michigan, from a working class family. He had a lot of brothers and sisters. I think he was one of eight children.

[Jad Abumrad]

And so after the war, when he got to San Francisco, he actually started going by the name Billy.

[Daniel Lutzer]

Billy, Billy Sipple. And he was perfectly open about his sexual orientation and would tell anybody who that he was a gay man. But, you know, he never told his family.

[Jad Abumrad]

And so Oliver lived like a lot of gay people at the time. This double life.

[Daniel Lutzer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

And do we know that this is the reason why sibling came to San Francisco. Or was there a different reason?

[Daniel Lutzer]

It may have just been because Harvey Milk was there.

[Jad Abumrad]

The Harvey Milk. You know, famous gay activist, San Francisco politician.

[Daniel Lutzer]

He was friends with Harvey Milk, a.

[Robert Krulwich]

New Yorker, an immigrant from New York.

[Jad Abumrad]

Turns out Oliver had actually met Harvey a decade earlier in New York. And I just want to mention this because I think it's so cool. At different points in time, they actually dated the same guy who was the.

[Daniel Lutzer]

Inspiration for Sugar Plum Fairy.

[Robert Krulwich]

Sugar Plum Fairy came and hit the.

[Jad Abumrad]

Streets in Lou Reed's Walk on the Wild side looking for soul food and.

[Robert Krulwich]

A place to eat.

[Jad Abumrad]

It's just a fun fact. Just a fun fact. That's it. But Oliver and Harvey, they were pretty good friends. They corresponded, stayed in touch when they lived in different places in the country. Actually, Harvey even loaned Oliver money sometimes because Oliver didn't have a job. He, you know, collected disability from his time in the Marines.

[Robert Krulwich]

But anyway, by the beginning of the.

[Jad Abumrad]

70S, when Oliver got to San Francisco, reconnected with his old friend.

[Robert Krulwich]

Harvey was, shall we say, evolving into.

[Daniel Lutzer]

A huge figure there, a gay public figure.

[Jad Abumrad]

Ken was actually friends with Harvey, worked on one of his campaigns.

[Robert Krulwich]

But this. I'm sorry.

[Jad Abumrad]

No, no, no. And I'm just thinking, like, one of the things we were talking about on the phone was about sort of the kind of two different schools or two different.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay, but the segue to that.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, perfect.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah, yeah, go for it.

[Robert Krulwich]

This is older. Other. I would say older, but other generation of gay, mostly men, was that they were content to go to tea with the mayor or public official of some kind.

[Jad Abumrad]

They would show up to, like, a.

[Robert Krulwich]

Rally wearing jackets and ties and, like.

[Jad Abumrad]

Ask for their rights politely.

[Robert Krulwich]

They really weren't, shall we say, activists.

[Jad Abumrad]

Because, according to Ken, the activism came when, in the late 60s, early 70s, you had young gay men and women.

[Robert Krulwich]

Who came out of the Vietnam War protests into the world.

[Jad Abumrad]

Took a look around.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

The CBS News survey shows that two out of three Americans look upon homosexuals with disgust, discomfort, or fear.

[Robert Krulwich]

The police are still raiding bars, what.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

They consider discrimination in jobs and housing.

[Robert Krulwich]

People are still getting beaten.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

One of whom said, queer faggot, we're gonna beat the shit out of you. Something to that effect.

[Robert Krulwich]

We're gonna kill you both violently and non. Violently.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Got up in the middle of the street. They knocked me down and started beating me with their hands and their feet, their elbows. Tried to muffle my screams.

[Robert Krulwich]

And after a while, a body of people get to a point where they just will not take oppression anymore.

[Jad Abumrad]

So in came the activists like Harvey.

[Robert Krulwich]

Ponytail, mustache. He was a banker turned hippie.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

You know you're lying, you know you're changing the statements around.

[Robert Krulwich]

He was very outspoken.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

I question what is your real motive behind it. Very militant. And stop this phony issue that you know is a phony issue.

[Robert Krulwich]

And to Harvey, we are saying that.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

A gay person should have the right.

[Robert Krulwich]

To say gay people were living in a half life opportunity, I am gay.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

That it is a part of society, period.

[Robert Krulwich]

Not being able to be who they were.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Every gay person must come out.

[Robert Krulwich]

As.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Difficult as it is. You must tell your immediate family, you must tell your relatives, you must tell your friends, if indeed they are your friends. You must tell your neighbors. You must tell the people you work with. You must tell the people in the stores you shop in. And once, once you do, you will feel so much better.

[Daniel Lutzer]

And so cut back to September 22, 1975.

[Jad Abumrad]

In the blink of an eye, Oliver Sybil becomes this hero. And that same night, Oliver's friend Harvey hears about all this news and kind of senses, wait, maybe there's an opportunity. So he picks up the phone and he calls the columnist, Herb Kane, a very, very well known, well loved gossip columnist. And Cain isn't there. So Milk leaves a message on his answering machine and he basically says, look, I'm a friend of Oliver Sipple's, I've known him for years. Oliver Sipple worked on my campaign for supervisor. So basically, without Sipple's consent, Harvey outed him. Milk outed him. But what was Harvey Milk thinking?

[Robert Krulwich]

That he would do this?

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Well, for Harvey, I think the stereotypes, the lies, the innuendos of gay people.

[Robert Krulwich]

As limp wristed and drag queens and.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Stuff, the distortions, all gay people are child molesters.

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, here's a true gay hero.

[Jad Abumrad]

A square jawed, heroic Marine who seemed.

[Daniel Lutzer]

To be a sort of like regular, like red blooded American.

[Jad Abumrad]

And so Harvey said, and this was written down by his biographer, who I'm quoting, it's too good an opportunity. For once we can show that gays do heroic things. Not just all that caca about molesting children and hanging out in bathrooms.

[Robert Krulwich]

Wasn'T there? Somebody said, no, no, no, no, you gotta ask the guy for. You can't just do that. Harvey just did it. Really? Yeah, he just did it.

[Jad Abumrad]

So Cain. The next morning, Cain arrives at his office. He listens to the message and Cain tries to call Sipple, but he can't reach him. But there was another guy who was a gay activist. His name was the Reverend Ray Broshiers, he was the head of what's called, what was called the Lavender Panthers. And he also independently called Herb Kane to say, oh, that guy Oliver Sipple everyone's talking about on the news. Yay. So he got two independent sources, both of people who said that they were friends with Sipple and that he was gay. And for Cain, I think this was juicy. This was a juicy thing.

[Daniel Lutzer]

And he let me just, like, go back and get this.

[Jad Abumrad]

So two days after the assassination attempt, Cain's column comes out.

[Daniel Lutzer]

And the way that he wrote it up, this is the precise paragraph. One of the heroes of the day, Oliver Billy Sipple, the ex Marine who grabbed Sarah Jane Moore's arm just as her gun was fired and thereby may have saved the President's life, was the center of midnight attention at the Red Lantern, a Golden Gate Avenue bar he favors. Reverend Ray Brochears, head of Helping Hands center. And gay politico Harvey Milk, who claim to be among Sipple's close friends, describe themselves as proud. Maybe this will help break the stereotype.

[Jad Abumrad]

And then that day, this guy named Darrell Lembke, Lemke L E M B K E, picks up his issue of the Chronicle, sees Herb Kane's column, read.

[Robert Krulwich]

It, and I reported it to the.

[Jad Abumrad]

Office, the office of the Los Angeles Times.

[Robert Krulwich]

I was a reporter for the LA Times in San Francisco. And so my office told me, get an interview with Oliver Sippel.

[Jad Abumrad]

But really quickly, before we get there, we actually managed to find the recording of this very specific interview in the LA Times Collection at the Huntington Library in Los Angeles. And I think the reason they hung onto it was because it was kind of controversial. So the night that Cain's article comes out, Daryl goes to Oliver's house. Oliver's there.

[Robert Krulwich]

Two reporters from the Sentinel were there also.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Who's the Sentinel?

[Jad Abumrad]

That right there is Darrell.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

It's a gay newspaper.

[Robert Krulwich]

Gay newspaper.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Want to be part of our mailing list?

[Robert Krulwich]

Sure.

[Jad Abumrad]

So they're all sitting in Oliver's living room, and what the reporters are all wondering is, have you heard from the President?

[Robert Krulwich]

The President hadn't bothered to thank him at that point.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

The President can award what they call medals of freedom to people for outstanding acts. They offered, you know, they had me brought back to the White House. Would you go?

[Jad Abumrad]

Certainly.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Would you like to meet him? Well, yeah, I stood in line for three hours to see him. Of course I'd like to meet him.

[Jad Abumrad]

And that voice right there, that's Oliver.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

He didn't have time to meet you at that occasion. I don't think so. Have you heard from the mayor? No, I've heard from nobody. No, I've heard only from the press and reporters and reporters and the press and that's. You have been hard to get ahold of. First we really have to dig or. But then I'm sure the mayor could find you.

[Robert Krulwich]

He has access to police records that.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Know where you are. Okay. Can we go on background? Yeah. Okay. For some reason, San Francisco Police Department has now referred any inquiries about you to the Sex Crimes and Missing Persons detail. That's something I think you should know.

[Jad Abumrad]

Something Oliver should know. Because this is. Again, this is at a time when the assumption was that all gay men were just pedophiles, perverts.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

And when I said background, this is information that cannot be printed.

[Robert Krulwich]

What.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Can I call him and ask him about it?

[Jad Abumrad]

Daryl actually asks if he can call somebody and ask about it.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Yeah. Would you do that right now? Yeah. No, I don't want to. Well, you won't. You damn right. They are not giving any reasons as to why. The number is 55313. 361. Who is the guy to talk to? Talk to your Sullivan or Patrick.

[Jad Abumrad]

I found out Daryl calls local authorities, but he can't get a hold of anyone.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

He said to call back around 1. They have said nothing to you about that? Do you have any sex crimes on your record? I've never had a sex event in my entire. I've never been arrested much of being drunk a couple times, but I don't. There's no Marine in the world. Hasn't been driving. Would you like us to check that out further to see if there's more they're giving you?

[Jad Abumrad]

And then the tape recorder goes off, comes back on.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Well, who do I call with some authority with the police department?

[Jad Abumrad]

And now Oliver's on the phone with the police department.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Yeah. Is this Detective Allen? Yeah. Well, my name is Oliver Sipple and I'd like to know why I've been turned over to your department. Sex Crimes and Missing Persons. This is me. Yes, that's correct, sir. Yes, sir. I'd like some information. A bunch of press came over. Well, not a bunch of. Just three people from the press came over this afternoon and they said they were trying to get some information about me in the police department and I was turned over to Sex and Crimes Acts. What the hell is all that about? Oh, I see. Well, Jesus God. I mean, I said, what the hell is going on? Okay, guy, I tried to call the mayor's office just now and I tried to call the chief of police office just now, and I thought, what the Sam hell's going on? Okay, thanks a lot, guy. Yeah, just the officer. One of the officers that was involved with the assassination or assassination attempt is in that department. That's all. That's why it's being turned over. Does that make any sense to you? You got me very shook up, young man. Well, I was just about to go downtown and whip some ass somewhere. We find out anything more about it, I'll let you know.

[Jad Abumrad]

Now, the reason this tape is so controversial is because according to Oliver, before the interview began, before the, you know, recorder started rolling, he had said to the reporters from the Sentinel, okay, I'm going to talk to you guys about my sexuality. But then he had said to Darryl, I don't want you to write anything about that. I don't. I don't want that in a national paper. Darryl says he doesn't remember that. But then right here in this interview, this thing happens where Darryl says, I'll.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Make one more try on the gay thing.

[Jad Abumrad]

I'll make one more try on the gay thing.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

You don't want to change your mind on that?

[Jad Abumrad]

You don't want to change your mind on that?

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

No, I just don't want to change my mind on that. May we quote you as saying homosexuality has nothing to do with this? You can quote me as saying that if I were homosexual or I was not, you can quote me on that. It doesn't make me any less of a man than what I am. Okay. But I think that it has nothing to do with the actor or himself. So I don't think it should be pushed any further than that.

[Jad Abumrad]

And eventually, okay, interview ends. And Darryl says that when he left that interview, he felt like when it came to all of her sexuality, he.

[Robert Krulwich]

Didn'T want to be quoted.

[Jad Abumrad]

That was it. Like, just don't quote me on it. But still, I was trying to report.

[Robert Krulwich]

From all sides about it. The big side for me was that he was a hero. And the President of the United States was very slow on the take in thanking him for saving his life.

[Jad Abumrad]

And Darrell thought that all of her sexuality, the fact that he was gay, might have something to do with that. Because just seven months earlier, on March.

[Robert Krulwich]

6, Sergeant Leonard Matlovich disclosed to a supervising officer at Langley Air Force Base in Virginia that he was a homosexual and wanted to stay in the Air Force.

[Jad Abumrad]

This Air Force sergeant named Leonard Matlovich, who had the Purple Heart, had the Bronze Star, he comes out that he's gay. And he's kicked out of the Air Force.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

In conversations here, people say that, you know, we're discharging this queer, that queer, throwing them out of the Air Force on the inside. I just burn up with, you know, just, am I a coward here? And I'm just going to stand here and never really coming up to protection of my fellow minority group and just keeping quiet. My conscience just wouldn't let me do it anymore. I had to come forward and say, no more, America.

[Jad Abumrad]

And now you've got this former Marine saved the President's life. And it's two days later he still hasn't heard from the President.

[Robert Krulwich]

So that's when I knew.

[Jad Abumrad]

So for Darryl, even though Oliver had said, don't make this about my sexuality.

[Robert Krulwich]

I still thought it was a national story. And it was pretty hard to ignore it after Herb Kane had started the ball rolling.

[Jad Abumrad]

So that night after the interview, Darryl calls in his story to the LA Times office and he uses this phrase. He says that Oliver is a former Marine who was, quote, a prominent figure in the gay community.

[Robert Krulwich]

Put it down a ways in the story, but the rewrite guy put it in the lead, really, and made it the big thing.

[Jad Abumrad]

And so three days after the assassination attempt, the LA Times runs the story with the headline, no Call from President Hero in Ford Shooting Active among SF Gays.

[Robert Krulwich]

And the LA Times got a news service.

[Jad Abumrad]

And so Daryl's story, it goes. I mean, it goes everywhere.

[Robert Krulwich]

Another strange twist to the story.

[Jad Abumrad]

Headlines are like, gay Vet or Homosexual Hero. It's been reported that the ex Marine.

[Robert Krulwich]

Who deflected Mrs. Moore's shot on Monday is well known in San Francisco's gay activist circles.

[Jad Abumrad]

And so it was not just running in Los Angeles, it's also running in Chicago, it's running in Dallas, it's running in Indianapolis, and it's running, you know, of all places, in Oliver Sippel's hometown in Detroit.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

I guess what I'm wondering is, if you have a guy who says, please.

[Robert Krulwich]

Don'T talk about this. This has nothing to do with what I did yesterday. Shouldn't that play some role in what you decide to write or not to write? Well, you know, news sources are always reluctant to talk. And so I guess I took it as my duty to take up that angle, especially since it involved the President of the United States.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Right. But if you were to do it.

[Robert Krulwich]

All over again, would you do anything differently? I don't know. I hadn't taken into account maybe the potential harm of saying it. I don't know if I'd do it over again or not. But not able to turn back the clock for something like that.

[Jad Abumrad]

Clock marches forward after the break. My name is Jazz Adam, and I'm.

[Robert Krulwich]

Calling from Los Angeles.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Radiolab is supported in part by the.

[Robert Krulwich]

Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

[Jad Abumrad]

Enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. More information about sloan@the www.sloan.org. This is Radiolab. We're back with the story of Oliver Sippel from reporter producer Latif Nasser. So the assassination attempt was on Monday and on Thursday, Sipple and his lawyer call a press conference.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Well, I think you all know this is Oliver Sipple, who saved the President's life.

[Robert Krulwich]

And he has a prepared statement on.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

A subject that's appeared in the press today. In the past few days, I have been asked many questions having to do with my sexual preferences to it. I have been asked whether or not I am gay or homosexual.

[Robert Krulwich]

This is.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

There is. This is my reply to the line in question. The first reason you are interested in my. In me is the fact the woman who tried to shoot the President. See, I'm sorry. I'm so nervous. Excuse me.

[Robert Krulwich]

This is a handwritten statement and he's.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Having a little difficulty reading it.

[Jad Abumrad]

We xeroxed it in order to get.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

It to you this afternoon. First, the reason you were interested in.

[Robert Krulwich]

Me is the fact that I deflected.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Oh, okay. I couldn't get the word there. Can we go right from whatever. My sexual orientation has nothing at all to do with saving the President's life. Just as the color of my eyes or my race has nothing to do with what happened in front of the St. Francis Hotel on Tuesday. My sexual sexuality. My sexuality is a part of my private life. And I have not. I have no. And has no. And has no bearing on my response to the act of a person seeking to take the life of another. I'm first and foremost a human being who enjoys and respects life. I feel that a person worth is determined by how he or she responds to the world in which they live, not on how or what or with whom a private life is shared.

[Jad Abumrad]

He basically says like, stop, stop. It's kind of as simple as that.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

But there's something else that happens in the press conference that is. Makes the whole thing, I mean, so much more personally. And it actually was the very reason that Oliver called the press conference in the first place.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

I want you to know that my mother told me today that she could not walk out of her front door or even go to church because of the pressures she feels, because of the press stories concerning my sexual orientation. Naturally, I never anticipated such a interference with my family's relationship, which I, when I supposedly saved the President's life.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oliver would later say that when he was talking on the phone with his mother, she said to him, I don't want to speak to you ever again.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

She hung up on him and also hung up.

[Jad Abumrad]

Did you call him Uncle? Uncle Oliver?

[Daniel Lutzer]

Yes, I called him Uncle Oliver.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah, this is George Sippel Jr. Oliver's nephew. He told me that most of Oliver's family stayed in Detroit. Oliver's two brothers and his dad worked together at an auto plant there.

[Daniel Lutzer]

They all worked for General Motors. And the stories that I've heard is.

[Jad Abumrad]

That the day after Oliver saved the life of President Ford, they walked in.

[Daniel Lutzer]

And everyone wanted to, like, buy them a beer. You know, everybody on the factory floor was congratulating them, patting him on the back. You know, your brother's a hero. Your son's a hero. You know, when they would take their shift break, this is the old days, right? They'd take a shift break and they'd go to the bar, and everybody wanted to, like, buy them a round of drinks. So then the news comes out, whatever, couple of days later, that he's this gay Marine, and there's teasing on the factory floor. Teasing?

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Mean teasing or teasing? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

Mm. Yeah. And George says, what happened is reporters back in Detroit just sort of descended on Oliver's parents to get more of the story.

[Daniel Lutzer]

And so they kept knocking on my grandmother's door, and she, I guess, apparently told them to go away. I guess neighbors were harassing her. She thought the media was harassing her. My grandmother just said, I don't want to deal with it, and so don't come knock on the door. Leave us alone.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

They just wanted it to go away.

[Daniel Lutzer]

And go back to their, you know, private lives.

[Jad Abumrad]

Now, one of the things that I found, actually, after talking to George were these interviews done with Oliver's family after the news broke that Oliver was gay. And there's just. I just want to read you this one particular passage here. Have you talked to any other members? This is from George F. Sipple, who is Oliver Sippel's brother. Have you talked to any other members of your family since September 1975 about Oliver? I mentioned it once to my father. Question, and what was his response? What did he say? And if you can remember, I was on afternoons then, and I had seen him because I had come in early, and he mentioned the fact that the next person that even said he had A son named Oliver. He was going to literally break their damn neck.

[Robert Krulwich]

Whoa.

[Jad Abumrad]

So his dad was like, this is his brother talking about his dad's reaction. Brother talking to the dad. Yeah. And then. So then the brother says. And he told me quite clearly in two letter words, just forget you got a brother. And I let him alone.

[Robert Krulwich]

Wow.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

I never anticipated such interference with my family's relationship, which I.

[Robert Krulwich]

When I.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

When I supposedly saved the President's life. This is all I have to say on this subject. Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen. Any questions that go to Minister to my lawyer here. I'd like to ask Mr. Simple a question, if I could. What would you. What would you like to see happen now? I don't know. I'm just. I'm very shook up. I may even have to go even see a doctor over this. I'm very emotionally shook up. And I. I just. I feel very sorry for my family, too. It's awful. Just awful. But nothing more to say.

[Jad Abumrad]

Can you tell us the story of the letter?

[Daniel Lutzer]

Well, I wish I would have brought it. I do have it, but I didn't bring it.

[Jad Abumrad]

Today, the same day as that press conference, which was three days after the assassination attempt, Gerald Ford actually did write a letter to Oliver Sippel, which was then released publicly.

[Daniel Lutzer]

It's a nice letter. It's White House stationery, White House envelope. It's basically Ford telling my uncle that, you know, he's thankful to him for this heroic deed. And he signed it Jerry Ford, which I've been told that Gerald Ford signed different ways. So if he signed Jerry Ford, it meant something. It was like a personal touch.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Well, there's this other chapter where your.

[Robert Krulwich]

Uncle says to the President, I guess, writes the.

[Jad Abumrad]

Well, so. Yeah, so this. We found a letter. We found a letter in the Gerald Ford library. It's from your uncle to the President.

[Daniel Lutzer]

Wow.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Daniel Lutzer]

I did not. I did not know about that letter.

[Jad Abumrad]

Really. I have the letter right now. So it's. The date it is September 30, 1975. So here's what it says. Dear Mr. President.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah, you said it was.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

What?

[Daniel Lutzer]

It was when?

[Jad Abumrad]

September 30, 1975. So that would be a couple days after he got the letter from Ford.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

This was so obviously. Obviously.

[Daniel Lutzer]

He got. My grandmother must have hung up on him.

[Jad Abumrad]

Right.

[Daniel Lutzer]

And then he wrote the letter.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah. It sounds like.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Cause he couldn't.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[Daniel Lutzer]

That's really interesting.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay. Yeah. Well, stop me anytime if you have thoughts or reactions. Dear Mr. President. Thank you for taking the time to write to me in view of some of the events since the unfortunate attempt on your Life on Monday, September 22. I really appreciate your publicly thanking me. As you probably know, there have been a number of stories concerning my personal sexual orientation in the news media. These stories have caused great anguish to my parents and to the rest of my family. I am sure my mother hung up on me when I first called her after these stories began to be published. I know you are concerned with very many matters which are too important and pressing for you to be concerned with the details of my private life. However, the unexpected and glaring publicity which has been given to my private life has very seriously disrupted my family relationships. Mr. President, it is a very hard thing to have your mother and family not want to have any contact with you. I know that your schedule is heavily occupied, but I respectfully request that you take the time to see my family or at least call my family. The Telephone number is 313-849-0680. I love my family, and I do not want to be separated from their love and companionship. Your help will be gratefully appreciated. Respectfully, Oliver W. Sipple.

[Daniel Lutzer]

Wow. That's sad. Sadder to think that nothing came of it, you know?

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

We tried really hard to find out if Ford ever made that call. The. The archivists at the Ford Library, they went through his call logs, and there was no evidence that he ever made that call. And then we talked to George Jr. And he talked to, you know, everybody in his family, and they don't remember it either. Anyway, you can't say for sure, but as far as we can tell, that call never happened. But we did find out that the same day that Oliver sent that letter back to Ford, he and his lawyer filed a $15 million lawsuit against the press. Really? Saying. Saying what? That the newspapers, when they publicized that he was gay without his consent, they violated his privacy. Okay. Walking out of Civic Center Bertha onto the Civic center in San Francisco. It's just. It's one of those cases where it pulls your head in one direction and it pulls your heart in the exact opposite direction. And so we wanted to get into the legal case files, and we could not find them. We looked and looked and looked, and then we found them. You found them? We found them. Where'd you find them? So the clerk's office is, I guess, not surprisingly, right off City hall, they were at this corner in San Francisco. And so we recruited this guy, this researcher, historian of the gay movement in San Francisco. Great. Name? Joey Plaster. And he.

[Daniel Lutzer]

Okay, so I'm gonna need your id.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay. Went and got the files for us. And then when we found them, it turned out there were like, thousands and thousands upon thousands of pages. And. Is that everything?

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

This is everything.

[Jad Abumrad]

That's everything. Okay.

[Robert Krulwich]

So the issue, you know, it's a very fundamental issue for those of us in journalism.

[Jad Abumrad]

And to help us make sense of the arguments, you know, lurking in those pages, what is privacy and what is invasion of privacy, we talked to Dan Moraine, editorial page editor of the Sacramento Bee. He actually first heard about the case in journalism school and also wrote about Oliver Sipple way back in the 1980s. So, anyway, okay, so here's the first page of the file. The lawsuit was against the Chronicle. The case is Oliver W. Sipple, plaintiff versus the Chronicle Publishing Co. Was against the LA Times, the Des Moines Register, the Chicago Sun Times, the Denver Post, the Indianapolis Star, and the San Antonio Express. Wow. Let's see. So this is the deposition of Oliver W. Sipple. Let's see. So one of the arguments that the lawyers for the newspapers were making is that Oliver's sexuality was not actually private. Lawyer. Were there any people that you knew in San Francisco's and, say, September 1975, who knew that you were homosexual? Yes. Lawyer. Approximately how many people? I have no idea. More than 10? Yes. More than 50? Yes. More than 100? Yes. There were people in New York who knew he was gay. There were people in Dallas who knew he was gay. And it kind of. They settle in the, like, in the hundreds. Did you tell anybody before in September of 1975 that you were a homosexual? If I were asked, I am asking you. I don't know what you are asking. And they make the argument, the newspaper's lawyers, that, hey, this was already somewhat public a fact, but his personal business was his personal business. I have never attempted to obtain publicity for the fact that I am gay or predominantly homosexual in my sexual orientation.

[Robert Krulwich]

He was a private citizen.

[Jad Abumrad]

I have made my home approximately 1,800 miles away from home of my parents and my family so that I could move somewhat freely in the gay community without the fact of my sexual orientation getting back to my parents and family. And it goes on. But the newspapers made this other argument that was like, okay, whether or not you're living a double life, whether or not you wanted to or whether or not you had to, there's something here that's bigger than that, that's bigger than you.

[Robert Krulwich]

Which was, he was a private citizen.

[Jad Abumrad]

Who thrust himself, as anybody would hope they would do. He ran toward. He went toward danger. And when he did, he also thrust himself into the public eye. And in journalists, when you're in the public eye, you become something else entirely. You become a public figure.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yesterday in San Francisco, a shot fired.

[Jad Abumrad]

When that happened to Oliver, he lost.

[Robert Krulwich]

His right to privacy. I'll make one more try on the gay thing.

[Jad Abumrad]

And the newspapers argued when it came to all of the sexuality.

[Robert Krulwich]

No, it was news at the time.

[Jad Abumrad]

It is. Was. And at all pertinent times has been my judgment that Mr. Sipple's activities in the gay community are highly significant and newsworthy for two important reasons.

[Robert Krulwich]

First, on March 6, Sergeant Leonard Matlovich disclosed that he was a homosexual.

[Jad Abumrad]

So like we said, when Daryl Lemke was writing that article about Oliver, you had this big story about the US Air Force trying to kick this guy Leonard Malovich out because he was gay. And Oliver has heard nothing from the President. The President later said that that had nothing to do with Oliver being gay. But to people at the time, the suggestion that the President's expression of gratitude to Sipple might have been affected by rumors of Sipple's activities in the gay community, that was news.

[Robert Krulwich]

News Secretary Nessen was asked if that was the reason President Ford has not.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yet personally thanked him.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Second lies the innuendos.

[Jad Abumrad]

Sipple's public display of heroism in saving the life of the President of the.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

United States, the distortions. All gay people are child molesters presented.

[Jad Abumrad]

An image that gay people are like.

[Robert Krulwich]

Everybody else, that they're heroes.

[Jad Abumrad]

An image certainly contrary to the stereotype of persons associated with the gay community as weak and unheroic figures. Which is to say, this is newsworthy, this is worth knowing, and it is. Is something that the whole country wants to know. And the value of that is more than the value of, you know, this individual person's privacy. Do they make it that explicitly? I mean, sort of putting it in terms of the public benefit outweighs the private privacy. Yeah. So Oliver's case, it dragged on for nine years. So from 1975 to 1984. But this is. I'm quoting the judgment. The record shows that the publications were not motivated by morbid and sensational prying into appellant's private life, but rather were prompted by legitimate political concerns. That is to dispel the false public opinion that gays were timid, weak and unheroic figures, and to raise the equally important political question whether the President of the United States entertained a discriminatory attitude or bias against a minority group such as Homosexuals. So the court tossed Oliver's case out. He lost. He didn't get a dime. I mean, if you think about it, it's weird that a journalist can just take a person's most private details, and then if it feels relevant, like, if they can make that argument, they just put it out there.

[Robert Krulwich]

If we were to go silent because somebody says, don't say that about me, then. And the government backs him up.

[Jad Abumrad]

But if it's meaningful, then the person out of which the meaning is being pulled painfully has nothing to say about it. That's just weird to me.

[Robert Krulwich]

It's really hard.

[Daniel Lutzer]

I mean, I was thinking about this, like, even sort of on the train.

[Jad Abumrad]

Coming over here again, Daniel Lutzer.

[Daniel Lutzer]

And it's like the thing that, like, makes journalism law so complicated, and the things that make an invasion of privacy discussions so difficult is that, like, what makes something not an invasion of privacy is not that it's okay. It's that it's politically, you know, relevant. So, like, the story. The fact that the story. The fact that the private details of his life are politically relevant means that it's not an invasion of privacy. You know, it doesn't mean that it isn't rude or that it doesn't hurt. It means that it's an appropriate story to, you know, to publish.

[Jad Abumrad]

But I. But I do think, like, why should the journalists be the only ones to decide what is newsworthy? It's not. Like, why is it that then, journalists, you just pick up a notepad and a pencil, and all of a sudden you have so much more power to say what's sayable than anybody else?

[Daniel Lutzer]

Well, I mean, we have this sort of long tradition of that in the United States. I mean, like, that's. That's like what the First Amendment is. I mean, I don't know. I mean, it's like, yeah, sure. Like, it's like, why do journalists get to decide that? Well, like, who would you rather have decided? It's not a perfect system, but it's. You know, it kind of works. So is Oliver just like this?

[Jad Abumrad]

This is producer Tracy Hunt, who was in on the interview. Somebody whose life is basically kind of sacrificed to the altar of the First Amendment in this, like, sad way.

[Daniel Lutzer]

Yes.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

It feels like he was sacrificed from all sides, actually. Yeah. It feels like there's this one kind of man in the middle, and then there are all these forces around him, these larger than life forces, like the White House. There's the gay movement, there's the freedom of the press, and all these people are sort of batting around all these enormous and important abstractions. And then in the middle of it, there's this guy that just. He's trampled by all of them. And so what ends up happening to him in the end? Well, apparently some people in the gay community during and after the lawsuit felt that he was trying to go back in the closet. So they sort of turned their backs on him. He surprisingly. He was friends with Harvey Milk till. Till the end. Like when Harvey Milk was assassinated. Oliver Sippel went to his funeral, and he did have one brother, George Sr. Who stuck by him throughout, but his parents did not. And they never fully accepted the fact that he was gay. And when his mom died, it was so bad that Oliver Sippel's father didn't let him go to the funeral. And because he sort of. He had so few people, I guess, at the end, and because there weren't a lot of news articles about him, because a lot of people in the gay community from that time have died because of the AIDS crisis. It was really hard to find out what happened to Oliver Sipple in those last five years of his life. And the only way we could was because when we were talking to Daniel Lutzer, he mentioned this interview that he did with this guy named Wayne Friday. He was a friend of Oliver's.

[Daniel Lutzer]

Wayne Friday was sort of like a pillar of the community in San Francisco, like a pillar of the gay community and then also a sort of political figure. And he was a cop. And, you know, he was sort of fingers in every pie kind of thing.

[Jad Abumrad]

Wayne died last year, but. But Daniel still had the transcript of their conversation about Oliver Sippel's last days. And so, yeah, if you need time.

[Robert Krulwich]

To absorb it or just think about.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

It for a second, that's fine with me.

[Jad Abumrad]

We found an actor, the very gifted Gordon Pinsent, and we had him read it for us.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay, let me have a go. I Forget, was it 1975, the Sarah Jane Moore? Yeah, that I met him around 73. He was a swamper at a gay bar called the Cockpit. Swamper. They used to clean the bars at night, you know, set the bar up for the next bartender in the morning. That's what he did. He did it at two or three different bars. He was always at the bars. I'd see him. We actually became friends because we discovered we were both from Michigan. Bill was a good guy. He was just a fucking alcoholic. I mean, he'd get his disability check once a month, and he'd go down one of the bars in the Tenderloin where he used to hang out was called Queen Mary's pub. He'd go in there the day he got his check. Swear to God, he'd spend his whole fucking check on everybody. And he'd get broke the rest of the month. He just couldn't control himself. And he was a little bit of a blowhard, you know. He'd get drunk and loud and he'd get tossed out of bars. I used to drive him home. Had an apartment on Van Ness. Had a little studio, maybe a one bedroom on the first floor. At about Turk he'd be drunk to the nail at the bar and I'd drive him home. So I always knew where he lived. And after this thing with Ford, it really fucked his mind up. Sifle was a broken guy after that. The whole thing worked him, the publicity of it all and the fact that everyone knew he was a faggot. You know, he said to me a couple of times I went to the Marine Corps and I got hurt, and now what am I known for? For being a faggot. And I'd say, no you're not. You're known for saving the President's life. You won't be known for what you did in bed, for Christ's sake. But he would get drunk and he'd start bemoaning that. I'd sit there in the bar with him and I'd talk to him about it. Amen. It is what it is. But he was just. He was just down to nothing. This thing happened and it overcame him. It was too much for him to handle. And I think he got to feeling sorry for himself and his family. Just many a night I would sit in the bar with Bill Sipple and he'd cry on your shoulder and you'd say, okay Sibyl, it's time to go home. And then I'd drive him home. I remember it was raining. It was pouring fucking rain. Bruce called me at my office, over at the DA's office and said, Wayne, will you do a well being check on simple for me? And I said, why? And he said, nobody's seen the dude. He hasn't been around for a while. So we go out there together and it was raining and I'm ringing the bell, ringing the bell, ringing. He doesn't answer. I noticed on his door there were these little stickum things post its. And he had befriended this little old lady who lived next door. They kind of looked after each other and she'd left all these notes. Bill, call me. I can't get a Hold of you. So I rang the manager's bell, and it was a little Filipino guy. I showed him my badge and I said, you gotta let me in. And so he did. And the door opened. And I knew what was going on. It's the smell. It's a smell you never forget. It's a sickening, sweet smell. Bill was sitting in the chair. He was bloated. He was bloated out real big. He had a bottle of Jack Daniels sitting there. And the television was still on. The coroner told me he'd been dead about 10 days, as near as they could figure. God, I didn't know. He was only 47. I thought he was older than that. Anyway, I got the guy to open the door for me. And the minute he did, I said, close it. And then I had to stand there and wait for the coroner. I remember it was over here at the Campbell Funeral Home on Market Street. And then we buried him out in Golden Gate National Cemetery in San Bruno. And I remember it was. It was very small. Casket wasn't open. The funeral was just. I mean, there were more media there than anything else. But I've seen him buy drinks for more people than were at that funeral. He could have been buried in Arlington if they'd made an issue out of it. I mean, shit, there he was. Was this national icon, a gay whatever. And there were just a few people out there for the funeral.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

I believe in human life. And I think that this country stands for human values, including life and freedom. I'm first and foremost a human being who enjoys and respects life. I feel that I. That I feel that a person worth is determined by how he or she responds to the world in which they live. Not on how or what or with whom a private life is shared. These are. These are my words and they're my.

[Robert Krulwich]

My feelings.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

This is all I have to say on this subject. Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen.

[Robert Krulwich]

Sam.

[Jad Abumrad]

This story was reported by Latif Nasser and Tracy Hunt. It was produced by Matt kielty and Annie McKeown with Latif and Tracy.

[Robert Krulwich]

Special thanks to Bruce T.H. burke, to Stacey Davis at the Gerald Ford Presidential Library, to the GLBT Historical Society. Stephanie Arias at the Huntington Library. James Crammond, who's Gordon Pinsent's agent. And as long as we're on the subject of Gordon, the actor you heard just ending the piece.

[Jad Abumrad]

Wow.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Wow.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah. Just wow.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah. Thank you to Gordon.

[Robert Krulwich]

Special thanks also to Alan Jones, Danny Meyer and Floyd Abrams.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Thank you all.

[Jad Abumrad]

We had original music in this story. We used A lot of music from a guy named Patrick Cowley. He was a guy who grew up in Buffalo, moved to San Francisco in the 70s like Oliver Sippel, and in 1982, he died of AIDS. This music was released posthumously by the label Dark Entries. We're super grateful to them and to Patrick Cowley, wherever he is, for the use of his music. And last but not least, before we close, we just want to say a very sort of special belated goodbye to our senior producer, Jamie York, who did.

[Robert Krulwich]

A little of the legal research in this story, trying to. Because we had to really probe fairly deeply to get the legal files. Thank you, Jamie, for doing that and.

[Jad Abumrad]

For everything, for guiding so many of our stories and our whole team for the last few years. Jamie, we will. We will really miss you.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yes, we even do at this very moment, miss you.

[Jad Abumrad]

All right, I'm Jad Abumrad. I'm Robert Krulwich. Thanks for listening.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

To play the message, press two.

[Daniel Lutzer]

Good afternoon, this is Daniel Lutzer.

[Jad Abumrad]

I guess the message is for Lateef.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

I'm calling in.

[Jad Abumrad]

Hi, this is Joey Plaster in New Haven, Connecticut, to. Hi, this is Dan Moraine of the Sacramento B to record the credits. Okay. Radiolab was created by Judd Abumrad and is produced by Soren Wheeler.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

So starting now, Dylan Keefe is our.

[Robert Krulwich]

Director of sound design.

[Daniel Lutzer]

Our staff include Simon Adler, Rachel Cusack.

[Jad Abumrad]

David Gable, Bethel Habte, Tracy Hunt, Matt Kielse, Robert Krolwich, Annie McEwen, Latesh Nasser, Melissa O', Donnell, Arianne Wack, and Molly.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Webster, with help from Amanda Aronchek, Shima Olihi, Shima Olanji.

[Daniel Lutzer]

Shima Olihi, Nigar Fatali, Phoebe Wang, and Katie Ferguson.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Our fact checker is Michelle Harris. If there are any problems with that.

[Jad Abumrad]

Please let me know. And I'd be happy to record it.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Again, but I think that should work.

[Jad Abumrad]

Fine with, you know, edits and stuff. Thanks a lot. Look forward to hearing, hearing the piece.

[Daniel Lutzer]

Bye.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

End of message.

[Jad Abumrad]

Radiolab is supported by the National Forest Foundation, a nonprofit transforming America's love of nature into action for our forests. Did you know that national forests provide clean drinking water to 1 in 3Americans? And when forests struggle, so do we. The National Forest foundation creates lasting impact by restoring forests and watersheds, strengthening wildfire resilience, and expanding recreation access for all. Last year, they planted 5.3 million trees and led over 300 projects to protect nature and communities nationwide. Learn [e-mail] Radiolabs since WNYC's first broadcast in 1924.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

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[Jad Abumrad]

Of content we know the world needs.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

In addition to this award winning reporting.

[Jad Abumrad]

Your sponsorship also supports inspiring storytelling and.

[Sarah Jane Moore / Interviewee / Various Voices]

Extraordinary music that is free and accessible to all. To get in touch and find out more, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.