Radiolab – "Poop Train" (Sept 24, 2013)

Episode Overview

This episode of Radiolab uncovers the hidden journey of New York City's human waste, from its daily flush to its transformation into fertilizer—and eventually, into "the bread you eat." Hosts Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, alongside author Frederick Kaufman and guests from New York's wastewater system and rural Colorado, explore the fascinating, vast, and surprising poop-to-wheat cycle. At its heart, this is a story about waste, stigma, recycling, and the strange revolutions in urban sustainability—told with Radiolab's trademark energy and storytelling flair.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Modern Waste Management in NYC

• Scale of the Problem

  • New York City produces about 1.3 billion gallons of wastewater daily—more than the weight of all elephants on earth (05:00).
  • Until 1986, untreated sewage just went straight into the river or ocean.
    • “Before 1986, all the sewage went into the river unprocessed.” —Steve Askew, plant superintendent (05:24)

• Tour of North River Wastewater Treatment Plant

  • The treatment plant is disguised with soccer fields and parkland on its roof.
    • “They played soccer on top of the poo place.” —Jad (05:53)
  • Inside: Sewage is pumped up 100 feet, then gravity-fed through cascading pools in a massive, multi-step cleaning process.
  • Initial skimming removes oils and fats; solids settle, and the “soup” travels to a bacterial digestion tank.
    • “It becomes a biological process. The sewage is actually food to this bacteria...huge cannibal fest.” —Steve Askew (08:32–09:02)
  • The plant hosts a complete ecosystem: midges, mayflies, spiders, and more.
    • “It’s a rainforest filled with animals.” —Robert Krulwich (09:27)

• Product: Biosolids

  • The end product is concentrated sludge—a thick, soil-like mass, filling the equivalent of a football stadium every day.
    • “That much sludge...would fill the Rose Bowl.” —Frederick Kaufman (10:22)

The Poop Train: An Unlikely Journey

• Old Solutions, New Regulations

  • NYC originally dumped sludge in the ocean; this was banned in 1988.
  • The EPA mandated “beneficial reuse”: turn sludge into fertilizer—aka biosolids.

• Selling NYC’s Sludge

  • Marketing NYC’s biosolids proved almost impossible: “There was a prejudice against New York City versus almost any other sludge in the country.” —Mike Sharp (13:11)
  • Even offered for free, other states refused to take it.
    • “There were towns that would accept biosolids from every city on the planet except New York City.” —Steve Askew (12:23)

• A Fluke in Colorado

  • Mike Sharp accidentally stumbles into Lamar, CO, after a wrong turn and thunderstorm, and meets a receptive local (Wayne Schultz), who’s open to trying NYC biosolids.
    • “‘Fertilizer’s fertilizer. That plant doesn’t care where it comes from.’” —Wayne Schultz (14:17)

• Farming with NYC Poop

  • Early skepticism: Locals feared biosolids could destroy highways or harm animals.
    • “It would probably eat a hole in the asphalt and have to be treated like a nuclear disaster site.” —John Stulp (15:09)
  • Acceptance grew when farmers saw yield improvements.
    • “After using the biosolids, he cut 66-bushel wheat. This crop increased by a third.” —Wayne Schultz (16:11)
  • Other benefits: reduced pests (aphids, prairie dogs).

• Scale of the Program

  • At its peak: 50+ farmers on a waiting list; up to 153 train cars/month shipped; 10,000 acres fertilized per year.
  • “We had enough demand to cover...50 to 75,000 acres a year.” —Mike Sharp (17:16)

• Closed-Loop Nutrition

  • The wheat grown with biosolids became bread—millions of loaves, some likely ending up back in NYC.
    • “That’s a slice of bread that we helped make, with the stuff that we, like, make.” —Pat Walters (18:16)
    • “Biosolids from New York come from the bread that they ate...and then, you know, the cycle begins again. The ultimate in recycling.” —John Stulp (18:27)

The Circle Broken: The End of the Poop Train

• Closure & Economics

  • The operation eventually shut down: rising fuel and transport costs vs. landfill dumping, NYC “cheaping out.”
  • “All they have to do is send you a 30-day written notice and your contract’s gone. That’s what happened. But, you know, everything’s bottom line.” —Wayne Schultz (19:31)

• Return to Landfills

  • Now, most NYC biosolids go to landfills or abandoned strip mines—not to Colorado farms.

• Cost Calculations

  • Landfilling is only about half as expensive as shipping to Colorado—yet, the difference spread across 8 million people is minimal.
    • “It would cost you, Robert Krulwich, about 25 cents a month to send it back.” —Pat Walters (22:06)
    • Jad: “That’s it?...I would have expected the answer to be a lot more than that.” (22:29)

• Closing Thoughts

  • Jad and Robert urge NYC to “do the right thing”—close the circle, recycle, and reclaim integrity.
    • “Close the circle.” —Robert Krulwich (22:48)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Consider the glory of this position: He eliminates a very significant portion of New York City's poop.” —Robert Krulwich, on Steve Askew (04:27)
• “You go from bugs—not just bacteria. There were little mayflies and bugs crawling on the surface...enormous populations of spiders...It’s a whole ecosystem.” —Steve Askew (09:02–09:27)
• On stigma: “There was a prejudice against New York City versus almost any other sludge in the country.” —Mike Sharp (13:11)
• On the closed loop: “It’s really going from a straight line—make it go away and never return—to a circle. The end is in the beginning.” —Frederick Kaufman (18:48–18:55)
• On economic realities: “Everything’s bottom line.” —Wayne Schultz (19:33)

Important Segment Timestamps

• [03:00–05:36] — The scale and history of NYC wastewater
• [06:06–10:45] — Tour of the North River plant, process explained
• [11:07–13:24] — The sales challenge: why nobody wanted NYC sludge
• [14:09–15:52] — Colorado says yes; local skepticism and initial results
• [16:06–18:16] — Measurable farming benefits; the closed-loop food cycle
• [19:01–21:21] — Program winds down; return to landfilling
• [21:38–22:48] — Cost, ethics, and the call to “close the circle” again

Episode Takeaways

• New York City's sanitation problem is vast, ingenious, and invisible to most residents.
• Cleaning sludge is both a marvel of engineering and ecology.
• The journey from waste to wheat illuminates the pitfalls of stigma and the marvels (and limits) of recycling.
• Despite decades of progress, economic logic (and a dose of NIMBY-ism) still determines the fate of the “poop train."