Radiolab Presents: TJ & Dave

Summary

Radiolab Presents: TJ & Dave
Podcast by WNYC Studios
Episode Date: April 2, 2013

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Overview

This Radiolab episode, hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, dives into the art and philosophy of improvisational comedy through a conversation with renowned comedians TJ Jagadowski and David Pasquesy, better known as TJ & Dave. The central theme revolves around uncertainty, both on stage and in life, and how TJ & Dave confront it head-on each time they perform. The episode unpacks how their unique approach to improv—beginning with a total blank slate and building a story in real-time—mirrors larger questions about trust, anxiety, creativity, and living in the moment.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Introduction to Uncertainty and Improv

• The episode builds from a previous Radiolab discussion on certainty and doubt, seeking out how mental strategies can help people navigate intense periods of uncertainty ([01:46]–[02:02]).
• Robert Krulwich introduces TJ & Dave as improv performers who push the art form further than anyone else, creating entire unscripted one-act plays with no plan or prior knowledge ([02:26]–[02:44]).

2. The Unique Approach of TJ & Dave

• Unlike typical improv, there are no suggestions from the audience, no scenarios—just TJ & Dave, the stage, and an unspoken trust in the unknown ([03:27]–[04:13]).
• They start every show with "complete tabula rasa," as David Pasquesy explains:
  Quote: “No assumptions. We’re completely tabula rasa. From the very beginning, it’s understood that we’re all just gonna find out together.” — David Pasquesy ([04:15])

3. The Beginning of a Show: Navigating the Void

• The performers start only by looking at each other, with no idea who they are, where they are, or what's happening ([04:44]–[05:07]).
• The scene slowly materializes with tiny clues and honest reactions. For example, a simple line, “You’ll bounce back, man,” sparks the start of the narrative ([05:07]–[05:33]).
• They gradually uncover character relationships, settings, and situations entirely in the moment, feeling their way forward one detail at a time ([06:01]–[07:12]).

4. How the Story Evolves

• As they improvise, facts about their characters and setting organically reveal themselves, providing both performers and audience with little “aha!” moments ([07:26]–[07:38]).
• They delight in moments when things click together unexpectedly:
  Quote: “Oh, wow. It’s been that all along.” — David Pasquesy ([07:38])
• The scenes often balloon into complex plots with multiple characters and intertwining storylines ([12:16]).

5. Embracing Not-Knowing and Handling Anxiety

• Both comedians admit to pre-show anxiety, what TJ calls a “maelstrom going on inside me personally” ([08:49]).
• Their antidote is a mindset shift: rather than trying to invent a story, they “discover” a story that is already happening.
  Quote: “It’s already happening. It’s all already going on. It’s not our job to make it.” — David Pasquesy ([09:13])
• TJ elaborates:
  Quote: "The show is already going on... we pick it up at a moment somewhere within this progression... To think of the show as it’s already all set, and all I have to do is stay out of the way, takes a huge pressure off..." — TJ Jagadowski ([09:52])

6. Is the Story Already There?

• Robert presses on whether they actually believe the story exists before they perform or if this is just a coping strategy.
• David admits uncertainty, but emphasizes the power of being present:
  Quote: "I don't know if it's going on before or after... But I do know that right now this is happening, and it's not of our making." — David Pasquesy ([11:38])

7. Example of a Show Unfolding

• They describe a scene where the coworkers discover their boss has been throwing games so as not to embarrass clients ([12:29]–[12:40]).
• The workers plot to kidnap and hide their boss to enable their own victory—a plot as surprising to the actors as to the audience.
• TJ describes the experience:
  Quote: "It’s that step off the platform before the next piece of floor comes to be under that foot." ([13:05])

8. Improv and Life Philosophy

• Jad asks whether their improv approach offers lessons for everyday life.
• David quips, "It seems silly and I agree with it," but both acknowledge the benefit of embracing the moment ([13:35]).
• TJ reflects:
  Quote: "I know I have better days. When I don’t presuppose too much, try and predetermine too much. When I am taking things as they come in the moment, I know I’m living a less anxious life." ([13:38])

9. The Stillness and Trust of Performing

• Performing together, TJ describes a sense of calm and presence:
  Quote: "There’s no more calm place in the world than the quiet of doing that show with David…" ([14:18])

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Uncertainty:
  “Please don't bring up this question. Is that a constant fear? Yes, absolutely.” — David Pasquesy addressing the fear that the story might not emerge ([08:23])
• On Anxiety Relief:
  “To think of the show as it's already all set, and all I have to do is stay out of the way, takes a huge pressure off…” — TJ Jagadowski ([09:52])
• On Being in the Moment:
  “It’s the best hour all week.” — David Pasquesy ([14:04])

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• [02:44] — Introduction of TJ & Dave and their improv style
• [04:15] — "Tabula rasa" approach explained
• [05:07] — The first line and moment of a show
• [07:38] — Discovery and delight in narrative development
• [08:49] — Admissions of pre-show anxiety
• [09:52] — Philosophy: "the story is already happening"
• [12:16] — Scene expansion with more characters
• [13:05] — The metaphor of stepping off the platform
• [13:38] — Improv as a life lesson
• [14:18] — On the deep trust and stillness of shared performance

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Conclusion

Radiolab’s exploration of TJ & Dave’s improvisational mastery digs into what it means to trust in uncertainty, lean into anxiety, and allow stories (or life itself) to unfold one step at a time. More than just about comedy, it’s an episode about discovery, presence, and the gentle courage to admit: we’re all just making it up together.

Transcript

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[Robert Krulwich]

Oh, wait, you're listening. Okay. All right. Okay. All right.

[Narrator/Announcer]

You're listening to Radiolab Radio Lab shorts.

[TJ Jagadowski]

From WNYC and npr.

[Jad Abumrad]

Three, two, one. Hey, I'm Jed Abumrad.

[Robert Krulwich]

I'm Robert Krilwich.

[Jad Abumrad]

This is Radiolab, the podcast. Okay, so last week, we just did a thing about certainty and doubt. Yes. And, you know, one of the questions that was silently lurking there was like, what are the mental tricks that can help a person walk through a period of intense doubt?

[Robert Krulwich]

And while we were researching that show, I was trying to think where I have seen the most intense, almost, you know, literally theatrical uncertainty that I. And there happens to. I don't. Do. Do you know, do you like improvisational comedy?

[Jad Abumrad]

I. I would like to be, but it's the experience of watching improv makes me uncomfortable.

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, that's the thing. I'm gonna introduce you to two guys who do something very interesting with that discomfort. Because if you talk to true comedy nerds, they will tell you there are two individuals who take this improvisational dare further than anybody else.

[TJ Jagadowski]

Hello. Hello.

[David Pasquesy]

TJ and Dave.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yep.

[Robert Krulwich]

David Pasquesy and TJ Jagadowski. This is us, and this is Robert.

[TJ Jagadowski]

Hi, Robert.

[David Pasquesy]

Hi, Robert.

[Robert Krulwich]

Our producer, Sean Cole, and I called them up because we'd been to their shows.

[David Pasquesy]

And you have two fans here. Well, thank you, guys.

[Robert Krulwich]

I've gone with my wife, with my sister. I've gone with people who couldn't stand it because they thought it was so scary to them. I had one friend who actually wanted to bolt and I had to hold his leg down on the chair.

[David Pasquesy]

That's a common reaction.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay, so what do these guys do? It's so special.

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, in normal improvisation, people come onto the stage and they ask for what's our. You're at a party and you've got a French teacher and you go.

[Jad Abumrad]

And then they have to make up a semen about that scenario.

[Robert Krulwich]

And then it lasts for five minutes or so. Well, these guys, they don't do that at all.

[TJ Jagadowski]

Thank you very much.

[Robert Krulwich]

They get up on stage.

[TJ Jagadowski]

This is TJ Jagadowski.

[Robert Krulwich]

They introduce themselves.

[TJ Jagadowski]

We are super happy to be here. As we hail from Chicago.

[Robert Krulwich]

They do a little crowd work back and forth.

[TJ Jagadowski]

We're very much looking forward to improvising for you. Trust us, this is all made up.

[Robert Krulwich]

But then, boom, lights go out.

[TJ Jagadowski]

And when the lights come back up.

[Robert Krulwich]

There'S two guys on stage just looking at each other. And it looks like they've just suddenly woken up and have no idea who they are.

[TJ Jagadowski]

No.

[Robert Krulwich]

They don't know if they're a man or a woman?

[TJ Jagadowski]

No, not yet.

[Robert Krulwich]

Where they are.

[David Pasquesy]

Correct.

[Robert Krulwich]

When they are.

[David Pasquesy]

No assumptions. We're completely tabula rasa. From the very beginning, it's understood that we're all just gonna find out together.

[TJ Jagadowski]

Right?

[Robert Krulwich]

And here's the thing. This is going to last unbroken for the next 50 minutes. It's like a one act play with characters and plot and they can't stop, can't break. And they have no idea what they're about to. None.

[Jad Abumrad]

So wait, if they're. If they have no script, they have no plan, they got nothing. They don't even know who they are. How do you even begin?

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, I'll tell you what, it looks like. They just stand there and look at each other until.

[TJ Jagadowski]

You'Ll bounce back, man.

[Robert Krulwich]

One of them speaks, you'll bounce back. Back. And then it's on.

[TJ Jagadowski]

I don't want to get into it. Yeah, you'll bounce back. Tough day.

[Robert Krulwich]

At this point, what do you know?

[David Pasquesy]

All I know is we're friends. We're in some sort of indoor setting. I think it looked like that. Males, males.

[TJ Jagadowski]

Breathe it out. Breathe through it, right? Is that what they say? Breathe through it, Pierce. Breathe into the area that's bringing you the pain. Yeah, Breathe into it, man.

[Jad Abumrad]

Is one of the guys upset?

[Robert Krulwich]

Yep.

[David Pasquesy]

Something's just happened.

[TJ Jagadowski]

We could hear something screaming from out here.

[Robert Krulwich]

I don't know. Some kind of fight.

[TJ Jagadowski]

Yeah.

[David Pasquesy]

Look, you know, I say what I need to say.

[TJ Jagadowski]

That's what I do when it happens. You know what happens if you keep it in? You keep it in. Yeah. Cancer, right? Yeah, yeah. Like Jackie Robinson.

[David Pasquesy]

Yeah. Right.

[Robert Krulwich]

All right, so some kind of fight just happened and one of these guys.

[TJ Jagadowski]

He is feeling like he just lost.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yep.

[TJ Jagadowski]

I don't know why. I don't know who we are yet.

[Robert Krulwich]

But they gotta keep going.

[TJ Jagadowski]

Did he look. Did he look like stunned? Did you get. Yeah, I mean, I got.

[David Pasquesy]

Yeah, there was at first, but you know, at first.

[Jad Abumrad]

So this fight was with a boss, I think.

[TJ Jagadowski]

Well, we were all rooting for you out here.

[David Pasquesy]

Thanks.

[Robert Krulwich]

Thanks.

[Jad Abumrad]

Their boss.

[David Pasquesy]

Yeah.

[TJ Jagadowski]

We'll see what the fallout is.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay.

[TJ Jagadowski]

Now we know it's a corporate environment. Without decent leadership, we got no leadership. No, we got no leadership.

[David Pasquesy]

A little top heavy, if you ask me.

[TJ Jagadowski]

And then they resent heavy. Yeah, a little top heavy.

[Jad Abumrad]

All right, so two guys complaining about a boss.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah. But right at that moment, they both shout in the same direction.

[David Pasquesy]

So the geography of this setting kind.

[Robert Krulwich]

Of crystallizes because now we know the boss's office is off to the right.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[TJ Jagadowski]

There are facts that are revealing themselves now, literally, you know, blueprints.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Yeah.

[TJ Jagadowski]

You know what? Cause you gotta ask yourself, you want the job or you want the story? Yup.

[David Pasquesy]

But we still don't know where it's going.

[Robert Krulwich]

I'm fine.

[TJ Jagadowski]

I'm gonna be fine. Yeah, you're gonna be great. You'd be an asset to any corporation or company. You know, I don't know about that. Yeah, I do. That's nice of you to say. It was heroic. You know, it was like you were riding into battle for everybody.

[Robert Krulwich]

But then there comes a moment you wore.

[TJ Jagadowski]

You brought the banner in there and that's pretty. That's pretty awesome. Hey, you know what? If you don't stamp, you know, Cause you'll fall for anything. Right, right, right.

[Robert Krulwich]

And it's. Right. You know what?

[TJ Jagadowski]

And I know it's a softball team there, but start somewhere. Start somewhere. You know, he's gonna play shortstop. Cause he's a district manager.

[Robert Krulwich]

Right.

[TJ Jagadowski]

You know, suddenly it's like there is a little bit of an exhale of like, alright, well, now we know that. That does make sense with the things we have seen up till now.

[David Pasquesy]

And also I think the delight in. Oh, wow. It's been that all Along.

[Jad Abumrad]

Right.

[David Pasquesy]

Because we're just paying attention to what happened since the lights went up. Nothing else exists. So one of the things that happened since the lights went up is when I mentioned something about cancer.

[TJ Jagadowski]

Cancer, right. Yeah.

[David Pasquesy]

TJ said, Jackie Robinson.

[TJ Jagadowski]

Jackie Robinson.

[David Pasquesy]

So that went in my brain.

[Robert Krulwich]

And Dave says the only way you're gonna get these kinds of moments which are both surprising and obvious at the very same time, is if the performers are genuinely as surprised at what just happened as the audience.

[David Pasquesy]

And the only way that can happen is if we actually don't know it. And so the not knowing is where the. That's the goal.

[Robert Krulwich]

But I mean, I assume you have the usual amount of self loathing that most people have, so probably more. So why aren't you afraid that you will look for this story between you and nothing will occur?

[David Pasquesy]

Please don't bring up this question. Is that a constant fear? Yes, absolutely.

[TJ Jagadowski]

TJ says before the show begins, there's an absolute like maelstrom going on inside me personally.

[Robert Krulwich]

But here's the truly fascinating thing. The way they deal with that maelstrom, all that anxiety about what's gonna happen is they tell themselves this story, that this thing that they're creating, they don't actually create it. They don't make it happen.

[David Pasquesy]

It's already happening. It's all already going on. It's not our job to make it.

[Jad Abumrad]

It's already going on. What?

[Robert Krulwich]

All right, so you know the moment they mention at the beginning when the lights go dim and they're standing just about to begin?

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

They'd say at that moment, the stage is literally swirling with all these characters.

[TJ Jagadowski]

Millions and millions, billions of its. Billions of stories going on.

[Robert Krulwich]

And the moment the lights come up, one of those stories gets frozen in place. And they just step in. We, here's how TJ describes it in.

[TJ Jagadowski]

A documentary, believe that there's this thing going on. The show is already going on. It is already in process. And we pick it up at a moment somewhere within this progression. But that the show itself started a long time ago. We didn't know it and we don't know which show we're about to join. Already in progress. So we get to live it or physically represent it for 50 some odd minutes and then we leave it. But it keeps on going, that the people that were represented for that amount of time go on to have marriages and divorces and children and buy property and maybe die a natural death a long time in the future or die in some horrible accident soon after. Soon after we. We see them. To think of the show as it's already all set. And all I have to do is stay out of the way. Takes a huge pressure off of having. I'm not a determining active part in this. I'm along for this excellent ride. That's already excellent. With a friend of mine. If I just listen and pay attention to him and what the show is doing and.

[David Pasquesy]

Do you actually believe that the show is already going on before you get there and everything like that, or is that just. Is that a story that you tell yourself, or is that more of a. That is an excellent question.

[Robert Krulwich]

Thank you.

[David Pasquesy]

And I don't know the answer. Really? Yeah. I don't know if. I don't know if it's going on before or after. I'm not sure of that. But I do know that right now this is happening, and it's not of our making. I remember recently a friend of mine said, hey, how'd the show go last night? I go, oh, it was crazy. This one guy ended up killing himself. And he stopped me and goes, you know that's you, right? You know that, right? You know that you're talking about you guys.

[Robert Krulwich]

And the honest answer to that question is what exactly?

[David Pasquesy]

Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I know what he means.

[Robert Krulwich]

Just so you know, over the course of the hour, they start playing all kinds of different characters. The show expands and expands. You meet coworkers.

[TJ Jagadowski]

Have you been here the whole time?

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[TJ Jagadowski]

Is that a call?

[David Pasquesy]

Yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

Eventually, you meet the boss, and then the workers discover that the boss has been intentionally throwing.

[TJ Jagadowski]

Throwing softball games, contests.

[Robert Krulwich]

Cause they're playing clients. They don't want to embarrass them.

[TJ Jagadowski]

We're throwing games.

[Jad Abumrad]

Not always.

[TJ Jagadowski]

We're bowing down, sometimes taking it up the fanny from Cottonelle because you need their business.

[Robert Krulwich]

So the workers hatch a scheme to kidnap the boss, maybe tie him up.

[TJ Jagadowski]

And put him in a van so.

[Robert Krulwich]

They can finally win a game.

[TJ Jagadowski]

So he can't show up at the.

[David Pasquesy]

Game, screw up the batting order and things like that.

[Robert Krulwich]

And it just keeps going on from there.

[David Pasquesy]

You just respond honestly in these tiny moments, One little thing onto the next little thing.

[TJ Jagadowski]

It's that step off the platform before the next piece of floor comes to be under that foot.

[Robert Krulwich]

It's like. It's like a beautiful dare, sort of the whole thing.

[David Pasquesy]

And it sounds like you're talking both about life and about the show as a beautiful dare.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

I mean, our tendency is to take what you guys do and transpose it onto other things. Do you. Do you think. Do you do that? Do you think how we perform is how people or how we should live? Or does that seem silly?

[David Pasquesy]

It seems silly and I agree with it.

[TJ Jagadowski]

I do know that when I can get, you know, in the real world closer to the idea of what I do, when I improvise, I know I have better days. When I don't presuppose too much, try and predetermine too much. When I am taking things as they come in the moment, I know I'm living a less anxious life.

[Robert Krulwich]

And when they're up there on the stage in the lights by themselves with.

[David Pasquesy]

No plan, it's the most. It's the best hour.

[TJ Jagadowski]

All week.

[Jad Abumrad]

So.

[TJ Jagadowski]

He'S still. He's still in his office at large.

[David Pasquesy]

He's still at large.

[TJ Jagadowski]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

He's loose.

[TJ Jagadowski]

It's just so encompassing. It is a really still. A really still place. He foiled my every attempt. No one's gonna ask you for anything. No, no, no one's gonna call. You're just in this kind of sealed bubble with someone that you trust implicitly. And there's just a real lovely still to it. There's no more calm place in the world than the quiet of doing that show with David at.

[Jad Abumrad]

At that time.

[TJ Jagadowski]

Maybe we don't mean need to make that many changes. Maybe we just do better. I'm going to miss you too.

[Robert Krulwich]

Sam. Sa. Big thank you to Sean Cole who helped us produce this thing and you thank thought it up. And to Alex Karpovsky whose documentary we quoted briefly from. It's called Trust Us, this is all made up. And to Harrison George, whose Lesser known brothers McCartney, Paul Lennon, John and Starringo.

[Jad Abumrad]

Anyway, I'm sure he's never heard that one before.

[Robert Krulwich]

Time to go.

[Jad Abumrad]

I'm Jad Abumrad.

[Robert Krulwich]

I'm Robert Krulwich.

[Jad Abumrad]

Thanks for listening.

[TJ Jagadowski]

Hi, this is Shelby from Montreal, Canada. Radiolab is supported in part by the National Science foundation and by the Alfred Psychology Sloan Foundation. Enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. More information about [e-mail].