Return of Alpha Gal

Summary

---

Radiolab: "Return of Alpha Gal"

Original airdate: July 24, 2026
Host: Lulu Miller, Latif Nasser
Episode theme: The bizarre, frightening, and ethically tangled story of sudden meat allergies linked to tick bites—and the unfolding scientific, medical, and philosophical ripple effects, including a genetically engineered pig.
Notable contributors: Amy Pearl, Dan Pashman, Dr. Thomas Platts-Mills, Dr. Cheryl Van Nunen, Dr. Robert Montgomery, scientists at Revivicor, and more.

---

Overview

This episode embarks on a wild journey: from the personal account of Amy Pearl, whose love for meat was upended by a sudden, life-altering allergy (Alpha-Gal Syndrome), to the unraveling of the mysterious culprit—a tick bite—and ends with a provocative exploration of genetic engineering, organ donation, and our evolving relationship to animals, food, and ethics. Along the way, listeners hear scientific sleuthing, philosophical musings, and a remarkable update: how Amy’s story helped inspire the creation of a genetically modified pig with ripple effects in medicine and beyond.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Amy Pearl’s Transformation: Meat Lover to Allergic Outsider

(02:10–07:37)

• Amy Pearl, lifelong “meat person,” recounts her devotion to steakhouse meals and the joys of hot dogs:

  “Oh, my God, I love hot dogs so much. When you bite into them and they're like clack and have like a snap... Oh, God, it's so good.”
  (03:29, Amy Pearl)

• Incident:
  Amy experiences mysterious, severe allergic reactions after eating red meat (lamb, cheeseburger, steak) several hours after ingestion, with symptoms including impending doom, hives, and near-fainting.
• She suspects a meat allergy after consulting “Dr. Google" and discovers a Florida man reporting the same thing. Yet her doctor dismisses the idea outright.
• The self-experiment: Amy deliberately eats steak under the watch of her mother, experiences another attack, and winds up in the ER, where a young doctor uncovers Alpha Gal.

2. The Medical Mystery & Scientific Sleuthing

(07:37–21:25)

• Allergist Dr. Thomas Platts-Mills at University of Virginia initially dismisses meat allergies, echoing the mainstream disbelief:

  “Adults don't become allergic to something they've eaten for 40 years out of the blue, and certainly not red meat.”
  (08:59, Dr. Platts-Mills)

• The case cracks open through a cancer drug (Cetuximab), which contains the sugar alpha-galactose (Alpha-Gal). Some patients have severe allergic reactions—and strikingly, this sugar is found in most non-primate mammals’ meat.
• Discovery:

  “if you told me four years earlier that there's a whole lot of people out there who are allergic to this sugar, I'd have thought you were smoking, you know, vaping again.”
  (11:08, Dr. Platts-Mills)

3. The Tick Connection

(16:20–19:21)

• Investigators notice a regional pattern: most cases appear in places where a certain tick—the Lone Star tick—lives.
  Map overlays reveal a near-perfect match between “Rocky Mountain spotted fever” (tick-borne) cases and Alpha-Gal allergy reports.
• Dr. Cheryl Van Nunen in Australia independently connects tick bites to sudden adult-onset meat allergy.
• In a fit of scientific curiosity (and perhaps bravado), Dr. Platts-Mills exposes himself to 200+ seed ticks; months later, he develops the meat allergy himself, confirming the tick hypothesis.

4. Tick Questing: A Micro Perspective

(22:29–27:44)

• Wildlife ecologist Graham Hickling narrates the daunting and comically tragic fate of thousands of baby ticks “questing” for their first meal, often failing.
• Amy recounts how sleeping with her dog (naked) after foraging likely led to her own bite.
• How the allergy forms:
  • The tick’s saliva (“tick spit”) contains components that provoke a powerful immune response. When the body first meets Alpha-Gal through the skin, it “labels” it as dangerous—so the next encounter via food triggers full-blown allergies.

• “The immune system freaks out...and the Alpha Gal, covered now in bad spit, almost sort of by mistake, gets labeled bad. And now it's on the bad guy watch list…”
  (27:10, Peter Smith & Latif Nasser)

5. Psychological and Evolutionary Loss

(28:10–33:46)

• Amy reflects on the emotional and existential loss:

  “I feel evolutionarily challenged. This is what I think about before I go to bed every night. Would I be able to survive if I had just what's on me right now? A pen, underwear, my dog?”
  (31:24, Amy Pearl)

• She muses that despite the loss, perhaps the allergy (and the tick) is pushing her to be a better, more ethical human.

---

Update: Science Leaps Forward, Thanks to... Amy Pearl?

(34:34–56:58)

6. Enter the Genetically Modified “GalSafe Pig”

(37:07–44:57)

• A medical breakthrough: surgeons at NYU Langone successfully transplant a pig kidney into a human—for the first time, the body doesn’t immediately reject it.
• The secret: a special pig, genetically modified (by company Revivicor), engineered so that its cells lack the Alpha-Gal sugar.
• Radiolab connection: The company’s motivation to make this a food-safe pig was directly sparked by Amy Pearl’s original Radiolab story.

• “After listening to the Radio Lab episode, the original episode, and listening to Amy Pearl, we thought, why not just expand the application to include food?”
  (44:46, John Bianchi, Revivicor)

7. Ethics, Philosophy, and Amy’s Discomfort

(45:42–56:13)

• Amy is surprised and ambivalent about inspiring alpha-gal-free pork:

  “I feel kind of disgusted…even if there is now some pork that's totally safe, […] I've kind of moved on from it, honestly, and, and happily it sounds. It's better for my peace of mind. It's better for my health. It's better for the planet…”
  (46:22, Amy Pearl)

• She grapples with the philosophical cost of creating animals specifically for human organs and food:
  • Is this progress, or another layer of animal exploitation?
  • Might a world that skipped animal use entirely have pushed for artificial organs instead?

8. The “Amy Pig”

(52:34–55:21)

• In a bittersweet twist, the first pig used for the FDA-approved GalSafe project was unofficially named “Amy,” after Amy Pearl.
• Amy responds:

  “Well, I did it… I can't let myself think about that. Poor, poor, poor, poor living creatures that suffer.”
  (53:13, Amy Pearl)

---

Final Scientific Update

(57:21–58:12)

• In March 2024, surgeons transplant a pig kidney into a living patient (Rick Slayman) for the first time; he lives two months (passing away from unrelated issues). The pig involved was genetically modified—likely thanks to technological, ethical, and narrative advances set in motion years earlier.

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On disbelief in the medical field:

  “Adults don't become allergic to something they've eaten for 40 years out of the blue, and certainly not red meat.”
  (08:59, Dr. Platts-Mills)

• Personal longing for lost pleasures:

  “My mouth's watering. Weenies and ramps.”
  (28:55, Amy Pearl)

• Philosophical reflection:

  “When you say, oh, they created this pig that you can, that alpha gal. People can eat my next thought is like, what is the meaning of life? Why am I here?”
  (49:21, Amy Pearl)

• On the unintended legacy:

  “There could be some young budding scientist that'll listen to this version of the story and come up with an artificial kidney and name it Amy.”
  (54:32, Thorin Willy Wheeler)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Amy’s Story & Meat Allergy Onset: 02:10–07:37
• Medical Investigation and Discovery: 07:37–21:25
• Tick Connection & Self-Experiment: 16:20–19:21
• The Tick’s Life & Allergy Formation Mechanism: 22:29–27:44
• Emotional/Ethical Reflection: 28:10–33:46
• Genetically Modified Pig & Medical Breakthrough: 37:07–44:57
• Amy’s Reaction, Ethics, and Pig Naming: 45:42–56:13
• Final Scientific Update (2024/2026): 57:21–58:12

---

Tone & Style

Radiolab’s signature blend of wonder, skepticism, humor, and pathos weaves through the episode. The hosts balance investigative curiosity (“So what’s going on here?”) with empathy (“Would I be able to survive?”), setting the stage for profound science but also playful, self-aware banter. The contributors, especially Amy, provide a very human (at times vulnerable, at times irreverent) anchor for these big, heady issues.

---

Conclusion

"Return of Alpha Gal" begins as a tale about one person’s bizarre, nightmare-inducing allergy, but unfurls into an extraordinary narrative about scientific surprise, medical innovation, moral quandaries, and our entangled relationships with other species. By the episode's end, listeners are left pondering the future of food, organ transplants, animal ethics, and the gently haunting possibility that even the weirdest misfortune can ripple outward to change the very course of science and society.

---

Transcript

[Lulu Miller]

Radiolab is supported by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliate's. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. Hello, it's Lulu. It's summer here in the Northern Hemisphere, which means the ticks, the ticks are out and also the barbecues are out. You know, hot dogs, hamburgers, ticks and burning meat. Which made me think of today's episode, which combines the two into a wildly eerie, scary, but perhaps hopeful, ethically complex tale. It's one of my all time favorite Radiolabs and we're gonna play it for you today. It is 10 years old, but lucky for you, it has a pretty thrilling scientific update at the end. So here we go.

[Dan Pashman]

Yeah. Wait, you're listening.

[Sara Khari]

Okay.

[Amy Pearl]

All right.

[Lulu Miller]

Okay.

[Robert Krulwich]

All right.

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

You're listening to Radio Lab Radio from wny.

[Amy Pearl]

Rewind. Good. Okay. Is your mic on? Yeah, I'm getting. This is making me nervous. Maybe I should get my EpiPen. Are you allergic to radio greatness? Not that I know of. I haven't been really exposed to it yet. Anyway, let's go.

[Dan Pashman]

Are we rolling?

[Robert Krulwich]

We're good.

[Latif Nasser]

We're going.

[Amy Pearl]

We are rolling.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay.

[Latif Nasser]

I'm Robert Krulwich, this is Radiolab. And today we're gonna begin with a conversation between Dan Pashman.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay.

[Latif Nasser]

Host of a podcast here at WNYC called the Sporkful. It's about food, and Amy Pearl. Amy, yes, A digital producer here at the station who likes food. And the conversation they had was about something that happened to Amy, which she never expected, certainly didn't want, and yet it could happen to any of us at any time.

[Amy Pearl]

So years ago, before any of this happened to you, just tell me, what was your relationship with me? My relationship with meat?

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah.

[Amy Pearl]

Well, you know how when you're little and your mom is like, you could have any special dinner for your birthday? My dinner was meatballs. And she was like, except meatballs, they're so hard to make. So it was pot roast and then Peter Luger. You know, Peter Luger is a famous steakhouse in Brooklyn. Yeah, I used to go there quite often and I lived there and I have a Peter Luger credit card.

[Latif Nasser]

Are those hard to get?

[Amy Pearl]

You know, I don't know how they give them out, but nobody seems to have one. I don't think they give them out anymore. But, I mean, I was very Into Peter Liquor. I was living in Williamsburg and it just. It opened at like one o' clock every day and you could just walk in at 1. They had an amazing bar. There's no tablecloths on the table. These old German waiters, they bring out your porterhouse for three. They put a little plate upside down and then put the big platter on top of it so it's tilted and all the juice runs to the end. And then they like have the special double spoon thing that they somehow like, scoop juice onto your steak and. Oh, so good. And also like the smell of burning fat from a hamburger.

[Latif Nasser]

What about hot dogs?

[Amy Pearl]

Oh, my God, I love hot dogs so much. When you bite into them and they're like clack and have like a snap. And like, having a weenie roast out in the open air is just. It's like the. Oh, God, it's so good. Anyway, I was always very into meat. What changed? Oh, my God, it was terrible. What happened was I was having this beautiful. It was springtime. I was having a beautiful leg of lamb with some neighbors. And we put it on the grill and it was just a delicious, beautiful dinner. And I had served with it some ramps that I foraged in my mom's yard.

[Latif Nasser]

A ramp, by the way, is just a wild onion.

[Amy Pearl]

And so. So we had this delicious meal and then I went home and I was going to sleep at midnight, like a few hours later, and I just felt weird. I was like, God, something's wrong. I feel like really anxious, like something's wrong with me. And I went in the bathroom and I look in the mirror and my face was like, all weird looking. And I was like. I kept laying down and be like, I'll just sleep it off, whatever it is. But every time I lay down, I felt like I was gonna faint. So I was like, prop myself up and I was like, oh, God. So I'm having terrible stomach cramps and just like a weir feeling of impending doom, you know? But just like anybody, I'm just like, just get a good night's sleep. This'll pass. I like, splash a little water on my face. I mean, I don't know what made me think this, but I thought like, maybe a snail, a tiny snail was on one of the ramps that I ate. And it was like poisoning me somehow, you know, snails, I mean, they probably poisonous. So I called my friends in the morning. I was like, hey, how you guys doing? How was dinner? And they were like, oh, so great. And I was like, really? So great. Nothing weird, no horrific Panic attacks. They were like. And they were like, oh, that was so lovely. Thank you so much. Let's do it again, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, wow, I really had a rough night, but I didn't think anything of it. And I went on with my life, you know, just like, whatever. And then about a week or two later, I made some cheeseburgers and I ate a cheeseburger. And I was watching Goodbye Mr. Chips. Really tear jerking movie and a good book too. And about a couple of hours after I ate, I was like, started to feel really weird again. I was like feeling like, I was like, had to stand up. I was like, I think I'm gonna faint. I feel really lightheaded, I can't catch my breath. I feel like really woozy. But if anytime I lay down, I really felt like I was gonna faint. So I was like trying to stay sitting upright and I was like, oh my God, this is. I ran into the bathroom and I was like looking in the mirror and lo and behold, I had hives all over my stomach. And then they started coming out of my hands and I was like, oh my God, something's happening. And at one point I did get up and unlock my door because I did feel like I'm gonna pass out, call an ambulance, and then they're not gonna be able to get in. So I mean, I was a little bit afraid of what was happening. And when I woke up in the morning, the first thing I did was Google sudden meat allergy. Cause I was like, this seems like an allergy. And the only thing that was the same was meat. And I'm going through. And like the second thing that came up was this article that was like, florida man has sudden meat allergy. I was like, oh my God, I think, is it possible I could have this? And so I made an appointment with my doctor. I brought in the article. I'm like, I'm gonna be this person, but I can do it. And I had the article in my pocket.

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

What person?

[Amy Pearl]

You know, the person who goes to their doctor with something I found on the Internet. So I brought the article, it was in my pocket. And I got through the whole checkup and I was too chicken. When I was paying the receptionist, I pulled it out and gave it to the receptionist. And I was like, could you give this to the doctor? So that was the best I could do. And then I did call my doctor and had a conversation with him on the phone asking him if I could get tested. And he was like, no, there's no Such thing as a meat allergy, blah, blah, blah.

[Peter Smith]

So some people think allergies are just like in your head.

[Latif Nasser]

This is science writer Peter Smith. We got in touch with him after we heard Amy's story. Because Peter is an investigator of many things, including strange allergies.

[Peter Smith]

And people are like, mushrooms hurt them. Or they think WI fi hurts them. Yeah, WI fi hurts them.

[Latif Nasser]

And I don't know. And when our producer Latif Nasser and I got into the studio and we told him about Amy's story, he said, yeah, all right. I know exactly who you need to talk to.

[Robert Krulwich]

Hello?

[Dan Pashman]

Yeah, hi.

[Peter Smith]

Thomas Platts Mills.

[Robert Krulwich]

This is Thomas Platts Mills. That's right.

[Dan Pashman]

How are you?

[Robert Krulwich]

I'm very well.

[Latif Nasser]

Dr. Platts Mills is down at the University of Virginia in Charlottesville. He's a professor and he works at an allergy clinic.

[Robert Krulwich]

In an allergy clinic, we are constantly sifting through stories which not only you don't believe, but are actually nonsense. Simply.

[Latif Nasser]

And he told us in the last 10 years or so, he started hearing lots of stories just like Amy.

[Robert Krulwich]

Right.

[Latif Nasser]

Somebody shows up at the office convinced that they're allergic all of a sudden, for no apparent reason.

[Robert Krulwich]

The first time I heard it was probably as early as 2004.

[Latif Nasser]

And every single time he heard the story, he would tell the patient exactly what Amy's doctor told her.

[Robert Krulwich]

No.

[Latif Nasser]

No way.

[Robert Krulwich]

No, no, no.

[Latif Nasser]

It's not possible.

[Robert Krulwich]

Right.

[Latif Nasser]

So what was wrong with these complaints, you know, in an orthodox medical way?

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

Oh, everything.

[Latif Nasser]

Everything.

[Robert Krulwich]

Adults don't become allergic to something they've eaten for 40 years out of the blue, and certainly not red meat.

[Latif Nasser]

So you're basically saying to these patients, I think you must be making this up because I can't explain.

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, I don't use language like that. I say, they're there, there.

[Latif Nasser]

I was trying to give you your inner voice.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh, you don't want to know what doctors are thinking in their inner voices. You know, you often think in the middle of an interview, is it possible that he's got, you know, some ghastly disease?

[Amy Pearl]

Mad cow.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

You know, the point is that when he'd hear a story like Amy's, he just didn't.

[Robert Krulwich]

Couldn't believe it.

[Latif Nasser]

But then everything changed, thanks, oddly enough,

[Peter Smith]

to a cancer drug, this new cancer drug called Cetuximab.

[Amy Pearl]

In New York today, Martha Stewart was

[Sara Khari]

indicted on criminal charges relating.

[Latif Nasser]

This is the very drug that got Martha Stewart in all that trouble for insider trading.

[Robert Krulwich]

Remember that? And went to jail for six months.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah. Anyway, very promising, exciting new drug. But then

[Peter Smith]

Doctors were giving people this injection and it would just like, end up on the floor of the doctor's office in shock. Yeah, they would be in anaphylactic shock.

[Latif Nasser]

Their hearts would start beating faster, they'd get short of breath, they'd get stomach cramps, Their immune system would start to overreact to something new and alien that came in with the drug. Basically a classic allergic reaction.

[Peter Smith]

So the mystery lands on Thomas Platts Mills desk.

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

Yes.

[Robert Krulwich]

So we were asked to look at

[Latif Nasser]

cetuximab to see if they could figure out what was causing the reaction.

[Peter Smith]

And he tests two groups of blood, a control sample, and then people that have this allergy.

[Latif Nasser]

And he quickly zeroed in on a particular molecule, a sugar that was part of the drug.

[Robert Krulwich]

This sugar, Galactose. Alpha one three Galactose or Alpha gal.

[Latif Nasser]

Alpha gal?

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

As in a particularly great lady. Yeah, Better than the beta or gamma gal.

[Amy Pearl]

It's like alpha male, but Alpha female.

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

Didn't quite have a ring to it.

[Amy Pearl]

It's the Alpha gal.

[Latif Nasser]

Anyway, it seemed like Alpha gal was the culprit.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah. And if you told me four years earlier that there's a whole lot of people out there who are allergic to this sugar, I'd have thought you were smoking, you know, vaping again.

[Latif Nasser]

Because not only does this sugar Alpha Gal show up in the cancer drug, and this is where we get back to Amy, it also shows up in the blood of mammals,

[Robert Krulwich]

All non primate mammals.

[Latif Nasser]

So every time you eat lamb or

[Robert Krulwich]

beef, goat, camel, even tripe or pig's

[Latif Nasser]

kidneys, you're also eating Alpha gal.

[Amy Pearl]

So I'm reading this article and it says, like, it's this thing called Alpha galactase or Alpha gal or whatever.

[Latif Nasser]

So it made no sense that someone like Amy, who'd been eating meat all her life, would suddenly somehow be allergic to Alpha gal.

[Amy Pearl]

I just was. This was so stupid. So one day, it's getting to be barbecue season. I usually have like a couple of barbecues where I just do a whole pork butt and a brisket and, like, hang out all day doing it. And I was like, very wanted to do that. And I was like, I'm just gonna not eat meat and not even know. So I was like, forget it. My doctor will test me. I'm gonna test myself. So I was like, gonna be very careful. I got a thing of Benadryl. And I was like, I'm not gonna do it alone. I'll do it. My poor mom. And so I went up to my mom's and she's like, really into food too. So she was like, oh, this is so exciting. I got two porterhouse steaks on sale at Stews. Did you explain to her what you were testing? Yeah, I did. Cause I had talked a little bit about it with her. So, like, fire up the grill. Do the porterhouse. I even think I, like, Instagrammed it as a joke. Like, ha, ha ha. This might be the last time you hear from me. But so, you know, we're having a nice summer day, just me and my mom having our steak. I only ate, like, a couple bites. Cause I was slightly nervous. And I was, like, sitting in the grass with my dog and reading a book and trying to think. Like, do I feel normal? Which. Try it, folks. It's hard to figure out when you start asking yourself, do I feel normal? Does this. Am I breathing? Does my stomach hurt? Is something wrong? And I was like. After a while, I was like, ugh, I feel pretty good. And the neighbor came over and was, like, chatting with us. And it was in the middle of that conversation where I was like, I kind of feel like I have to go to the bathroom, but maybe I just have to go to the bathroom. So I went to the bathroom, and I was sitting there and I was like, oh, God, something feels bad. And then I was like, oh, God. I definitely. This is not right. Something's wrong. And I went in to get the Benadryl, and I took the Benadryl and I went on my bed and in the guest room at my mom's. And I was like, sitting on there, and I was like, I just don't feel right. Maybe I just take a deep breath. I'll just stand up. Maybe I'll just put my hands over my head like this. Oh, that does feel slightly better, I think. Then I was finally like, I think we should go to the hospital. And I went outside. I was like, mom, I think you have to drive me to the hospital. She was, like, talking to her neighbor like, what? Oh, my God, honey, what? Oh, let me go change my clothes. Change my clothes. Like, mom, you know she's not wearing the hospital level clothes. So I'm like, okay, hurry up, Mom. Mom, are you ready?

[Peter Smith]

Mom?

[Amy Pearl]

And then I was like. While she was changing her clothes, I suddenly was like, oh, my God. Got my wallet out and my cell phone, and I, like, threw it towards my mom's bedroom door. And I was like, here's my insurance card. Call an ambulance. And I just, like, hit the floor. Eventually, the ambulance arrives, and I got stabilized. I was strapped to the thing I was in the emergency room, like they were shooting me full of, I don't know what, epinephrine and adrenaline. And the little like 12 year old emergency room doctor runs in and he was like, I looked it up on the Internet. Alpha gal. Fascinating. What? That's terrible. I've never heard of that. Could it be true? Yes, it's true. Like they're all having this discussion there. Then when I went back to my doctor after that and I was like, hey, just get out of the emergency room. Because they tested me for Alpha gal. I'm allergic to meat.

[Latif Nasser]

So this is an allergy. Yeah.

[Amy Pearl]

So all of a sudden you're looking

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

at the quote, crazies and they're not

[Latif Nasser]

so, quote, crazy anymore.

[Robert Krulwich]

Absolutely. We suddenly had a blood test and of course what turned out is all these patients who'd been telling us this story were allergic to alpha gum.

[Peter Smith]

But. But it's still like a mystery, right?

[Latif Nasser]

There are Thomas Platts Mills couldn't figure out why people like Amy, who had lived for 40 years eating porterhouse steaks at Peter Luger's with a credit card, why would she suddenly develop an allergy now? There had got to be some kind of trigger.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yes. So we were looking for anything that could explain it.

[Peter Smith]

It could be a mold, it could

[Robert Krulwich]

be a nematode, a worm or a fungus.

[Latif Nasser]

But then he looked again and noticed that all the people who had had bad reactions to the cancer drug, they

[Robert Krulwich]

particular area of the country was Virginia, North Carolina, southern Missouri, Tennessee, Arkansas. No cases in Salt Lake City, no cases in Denver, Just smatterings down the west.

[Latif Nasser]

So he turned to his technician, Jake,

[Robert Krulwich]

and he said, I said, you've got to Google every map you can find and say what matches that area, Creatures

[Latif Nasser]

or diseases that appear wherever the allergy appears.

[Peter Smith]

So Jake starts googling, googling and googling

[Latif Nasser]

and googling and eventually he comes across

[Robert Krulwich]

a map that matches where the cases are very beautifully. The maximum area for Rocky Mountain spotted fever.

[Peter Smith]

So he made this little map and it's like the shaded dark areas of the country are places with Rocky Mountain spotted fever. And then there's like some stars where, you know, this allergy had appeared.

[Dan Pashman]

Yeah.

[Peter Smith]

And they overlap.

[Robert Krulwich]

Ah, very interesting.

[Peter Smith]

And then all of a sudden it clicks. Rocky Mountain spotted fever is a tick borne disease.

[Robert Krulwich]

This is the distribution of the Lone Star tick.

[Latif Nasser]

And actually just a little before this, it turns out an allergist down in Australia, Cheryl Van Noonen, first name Cheryl.

[Lulu Miller]

S H E R Y L Van Noonan. V A N and then N U N E N. And I'm from the Tick Induced Allergies Research and Awareness Centre in Sydney, Australia.

[Latif Nasser]

She says she was now being visited by all kinds who claim suddenly to be allergic to meat. And whenever I take a history.

[Lulu Miller]

So, for example, I'd ask them, was there a family history of rhinitis, eczema, asthma, stinging insect allergy? And they say they've all been bitten by ticks.

[Robert Krulwich]

When we started asking patients, we suddenly heard the stories just out the kazoo.

[Latif Nasser]

But at this point, Dr. Platts Mills, all he has is a map, some stories and a hunch, right? So what does he do?

[Peter Smith]

He decides, well, maybe I'll just do this to myself.

[Latif Nasser]

He does what?

[Peter Smith]

He decides to test it on himself.

[Latif Nasser]

Oh, my God.

[Peter Smith]

He sort of like, denies that he did it intentionally.

[Robert Krulwich]

I know. I had no intention.

[Peter Smith]

I mean, I think he also likes to walk and amble and think about things, right? So he goes for a long walk along the Blue Ridge Mountains and I

[Robert Krulwich]

knew I wanted to be off trail because I'm actually rather allergic to humans.

[Latif Nasser]

So he's walking and walking and walking, and along the way he bumps into a whole bunch of ticks.

[Robert Krulwich]

And if you walk into a nest of those things.

[Latif Nasser]

Oh, my God, this sounds like a nightmare.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah, absolutely. I got 200 seed ticks.

[Amy Pearl]

Oh, boy.

[Robert Krulwich]

And then in November of that year, I was taken out to dinner and the lamb chops were particularly delicious and the French wine was delicious. And six hours later, I woke up covered in hives.

[Peter Smith]

He's got an allergy to red meat.

[Latif Nasser]

All just because of a tick bite.

[Peter Smith]

Tick bite.

[Robert Krulwich]

That's right.

[Latif Nasser]

We'll bite you right back after this.

[Lulu Miller]

Radiolab is supported by Capital One with no fees or minimums on checking accounts. It's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet. Terms apply. Seecapitalone.com Bankuy Capital One NA member FDIC WNYC Studios is supported by WISE. WISE, the Smart Way to manage the currencies you need around the world. With a Wise account, you can send, spend and receive in up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps. Be smart, get wise. Download the Wise app today. Terms and conditions apply. Radiolab is supported by Smalls. Did you know that some cat foods contain so much carbohydrate filler that they're closer to a granola bar than a prey animal. It's true. In fact, dry kibble can be 30 to 50% carbs, despite cats having almost no dietary need for them. Smalls fresh recipes are over 80% animal protein and they never use fillers or artificial ingredients. Their food is so healthy that 88% of cat parents say that after feeding Smalls, they notice that their cat has better digestion, is softer and shinier, and has more energy to play because it's actually good for cats. If you want to invest in your cat's health, Smalls is giving you 60% off your cat's first order, plus free shipping and free treats for life when you go to smalls.com Radiolab that's 60% off your first order, plus free shipping and free treats for life when you head to smalls.com Radiolab

[Peter Smith]

this week on

[Amy Pearl]

the New Yorker Radio Hour, will Elon Musk ever be held accountable for the destruction of usaid? Musk is screaming at those who suggest

[Robert Krulwich]

there has been public man made death.

[Dan Pashman]

The anger comes from the cognitive dissonance.

[Robert Krulwich]

They can't countenance, the image that they are monsters.

[Latif Nasser]

That's Dr. Atul Gawande, a former administrator

[Amy Pearl]

at USAID on the New Yorker Radio Hour from WNYC.

[Latif Nasser]

Listen, wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Robert Krulwich. This is Radiolab. Now we go back to Amy, just when she's discovered that the allergy to meat that she's developed comes from a tick bite.

[Amy Pearl]

A tick bite. Hang on a second because like a few weeks before all this started happening, as I said, I was foraging for ramps in my mom's backyard and I had a tick on.

[Latif Nasser]

Now it turns out that not only was that tick bite a terrible thing for Amy, it was a kind of double tragedy hidden from view amongst the

[Robert Krulwich]

trees

[Amy Pearl]

and in the undergrowth.

[Latif Nasser]

And I think it's only right at this point to back up is a fascinating world of wonders and consider the story from a tick's point of view.

[Graham Hickling]

Okay. Okay. So I'm Graham Hickling. I'm a wildlife disease ecologist at the University of Tennessee.

[Latif Nasser]

So I was wondering if you could help us tell the story of, in this case, the Lone Star tick that bit Amy.

[Graham Hickling]

Oh, yeah, sure. So they start off in this little pile of eggs, perhaps a mass of 2,000 eggs under the leaves.

[Latif Nasser]

The proud mom who just gave birth.

[Graham Hickling]

At that point, she's just a kind of A withered husk meaning dead. But anyway, a few weeks later, those eggs will hatch and this mass of 2000 baby ticks emerge from under the leaves.

[Latif Nasser]

And could I see them with my naked eye?

[Graham Hickling]

If you ran into a mass of them all up together, you would feel like you've got a little smudge of dirt. And then the dirt starts walking. And so they'll just climb up and they'll potentially all be on the same leaf or the same twig, looking for something to feed on.

[Latif Nasser]

Now, one teeny little tiny problem for

[Graham Hickling]

these teeny little tiny ticks is that they dry out.

[Latif Nasser]

So when they come up from under the leaves, they come up briefly and then they go back down, get a little water, come back up, get thirsty,

[Graham Hickling]

go back down and rehydrate.

[Amy Pearl]

So they like commute.

[Graham Hickling]

Exactly. And we refer to the behavior as questing.

[Dan Pashman]

Oh.

[Latif Nasser]

So if you were one of these little baby ticks up, questing for food,

[Graham Hickling]

while you're up there, you are essentially

[Latif Nasser]

Velcro, because on each one of your

[Graham Hickling]

little legs you have little kind of hook like structures. And so you're flat against the leaf,

[Latif Nasser]

sort of sniffing in the air with your two little front legs that can

[Graham Hickling]

detect CO2 heat movement.

[Latif Nasser]

So let's say one day you're sitting there on your leaf and you pick up the scent of a nearby mouse.

[Graham Hickling]

Mice are the potato chips of the ecosystem.

[Latif Nasser]

Everything eats them, which means you might be about to have your very first meal.

[Graham Hickling]

So you basically stand up, stretch out all your little legs and do a tick dance. And so it's kind of interpretive dance

[Latif Nasser]

like movements while you're waiting for that mouse to come just close enough that you can grab onto it. So you're dancing and you're waiting and you're dancing and you're waiting and you're dancing and you're waiting and you're dancing on your way.

[Graham Hickling]

To be honest, you are probably going to wait your entire life and die unfulfilled. Because there are 2,000 of you starting off and a stable tick population. There's only going to be two of you that survive.

[Latif Nasser]

Oh, my gosh. So 1998little baby ticks are born and

[Graham Hickling]

then that's it for them.

[Latif Nasser]

But let's say that you're one of the lucky ones. And one sunny day, there you are hanging out on your little leaf when you detect two incoming mammals. One is a 40 year old hominid, the other is her dog. So you perk up, you thrust your

[Graham Hickling]

legs out, wave, do the tick dance,

[Latif Nasser]

and Say that you're waving and you're dancing and you're hoping and you're waving and you're dancing and you're hoping and you're waving and you're dancing and you're hoping. And slowly the dog's getting closer and closer and closer. And you reach out with one of your tiny little. So you can grab on and eat and survive. But.

[Amy Pearl]

But the reason that tic ended up on me was I slept in bed with my dog naked. I mean, she's always naked, but I was also naked. I mean, that's not gross. I don't. I mean, does that sound weird?

[Dan Pashman]

No.

[Latif Nasser]

But how do you know that's when it happened?

[Amy Pearl]

Because I know that, like, I did a good tic check on myself and I took a shower and everything. And then in the middle of the night, I woke up with an itching sensation and I went to the bathroom and I couldn't really see what was on. Like something was on the back of my arm and it was a tick.

[Latif Nasser]

So as the tick is biting into Amy, what is it giving Amy that's gonna make her allergic to meat?

[Graham Hickling]

Well, actually, I need to stop you there, Robert.

[Lulu Miller]

Difficult one, Robert.

[Graham Hickling]

I don't know the answer to that.

[Latif Nasser]

That's Peter Smith. And rejoining us is Cheryl Van Noonan, the scientist.

[Amy Pearl]

It's all up for speculation.

[Peter Smith]

We don't really know. But here's the theory.

[Latif Nasser]

Normally when you eat a piece of meat, you put Alpha Gal in your stomach and your stomach digests it, and it's in your body and it's no big deal.

[Graham Hickling]

But the tick cunningly will drill into you, poke into you, and injects its saliva.

[Amy Pearl]

We'll call that tick spit.

[Peter Smith]

Tick spit into its victims, straight into

[Latif Nasser]

its victim's largest organ, the skin.

[Graham Hickling]

And tick spit has an anti clotting factor, an anesthetic, anti inflammatory compounds, and

[Latif Nasser]

we think the Alpha Galactic. Now, Peter says the thing about the

[Peter Smith]

skin is the skin is like this enormous surveillance system.

[Latif Nasser]

It's always on the lookout for invaders. So when the Alpha Gal comes through your skin covered by all that bad, bad tick spit stuff, that's gonna really,

[Peter Smith]

like, set off your immune system.

[Latif Nasser]

The immune system freaks out, like, oh, and the Alpha Gal, covered now in bad spit, almost sort of by mistake, gets labeled bad. And now it's on the bad guy watch list. So therefore, the next time you eat meat, the meat comes in. And then the body unleashes wave upon wave upon wave of chemical attacks to

[Peter Smith]

do battle against this Alpha guy.

[Latif Nasser]

And this reaction gets Way out of hand. You got so many antibodies, multiplying, multiplying, multiplying, multiplying. Making you rather, in this case Amy, feel just

[Amy Pearl]

horrible.

[Peter Smith]

Right.

[Amy Pearl]

I mean, it's very weird. It sounds like a science fiction movie. It sounds like the beginning of a science fiction, at least kids book. Let's not go to movie. But like, it's just strange.

[Latif Nasser]

Which all goes to say that this really is a kind of double tragedy for Amy and her tick.

[Peter Smith]

Yeah. Cause tics didn't evolve to bite humans.

[Graham Hickling]

Right. We're a mistake.

[Peter Smith]

Like, we have opposable thumbs.

[Graham Hickling]

We're either gonna pull them off.

[Amy Pearl]

I actually woke my mom up and she helped get it off.

[Graham Hickling]

Or if they drop off, they're going to drop off in an airport terminal or a Walmart car park or somewhere like that.

[Latif Nasser]

Or a shag carpet.

[Graham Hickling]

Or a shag carpet indoors. And they're doomed.

[Latif Nasser]

And for us, well, we lose something that historically anyway, is a big part of who we are.

[Peter Smith]

Yeah. Because we adapted in the grand evolutionary scheme of things to eat flesh, to eat meat.

[Dan Pashman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Amy Pearl]

I mean, I'm actually sitting here picturing a steak. But actually the thing. I mean, hot dogs, like wrap ramps around a weenie and roast. Yum. That sounds so good. My mouth's watering. Weenies and ramps.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah.

[Amy Pearl]

But I am going to my allergist tomorrow. Cause I did, you know, I was reading about this allergy a lot when I first got it, and I read that for some people the allergy can fade away. So I'm gonna a blood test to see what my blood level of Alpha gal is. So I'm a little.

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

So what are you hoping for tomorrow?

[Amy Pearl]

I want to be normal again.

[Latif Nasser]

That was the end of the Dan and Amy conversation. She was going to go to the doctor, get herself tested, find out whatever. So we asked her back in.

[Amy Pearl]

Okay.

[Latif Nasser]

To find out what happened.

[Amy Pearl]

So I actually did get an appointment with my allergist, Dr. Korn. Her name is Dr. Korn. She's really nice. So I got the appointment, I got the blood draw, whatever. And a few days later, my doctor called me and she said that my numbers were still really high. And I was like, well, how high are they? And she was like three. And I was like, three. That's not high. And she's like, they're supposed to be like one or something. So they had gone down, but they were still, you know, many times more than they should be. So.

[Latif Nasser]

But when you left and you were waiting for the call, were you waiting with the hope that you would soon Be eating a bit of hot dog.

[Amy Pearl]

I mean, honestly, I was hoping. No, no, no, I don't.

[Latif Nasser]

Wait a second. You are the big. The great you.

[Amy Pearl]

No, but I was afraid that she would be like, oh, my God, your numbers are so low. I think you could probably eat meat. Let's do a food challenge. I would be like, ah. Cause, like, that's such a. Yeah, I don't. You know, actually, just the other night, I was eating at an Indian place, and I was eating vegetarian. But, like, I felt something, and I pulled it out. And in the dim light of an Indian restaurant, like, why are they all lit like that? I was like, was this bacon? And I suddenly, you know, like, you just get this drop in your stomach, and I'm like, what time is it? Four hours from now. If I. You know, because there's something about it being delayed that makes it so difficult. It just is like.

[Latif Nasser]

Like a suspense movie with you, the victim.

[Amy Pearl]

It's like, it could happen in the next three hours or maybe not. I don't know. I mean, honestly, the only thing that. The real reason I want to be able to eat meat is so that I will be prepared to eat it in case of emergency. I mean, I went on a canoe trip in the Adirondacks, and I was like, well, what happens if I get stranded out here? And, like, what if I have to hunt? But I can't even eat meat. I would have to hunt fish, but then when the lake freez, what would I eat? I can't survive. Something's wrong with me. I feel evolutionarily challenged. This is what I think about before I go to bed every night. Would I be able to survive if I had just what's on me right now? A pen, underwear, my dog? And so, yeah, I mean, that's a real issue. Is, like, it's not a real issue. Obviously, it's never gonna happen and live in Brooklyn, but I do, for some reason, I always think, like, I want to be prepared in case. But, yeah, you know, I don't think I would go back to eating meat necessarily.

[Latif Nasser]

Like, you are still more. More frightened than game, so to speak.

[Amy Pearl]

Well, also, like, I wish I could be a vegetarian for ethical reasons, because it's not so much just the eating meat, but just, like, you know, the factory farming and that kind of stuff. So I feel, like, morally superior now. I can be like, well, I don't eat red meat. Of course, I'm forced to not eat it, but at the same time, I would if I had the. If I had the willpower. I'd probably go that way anyway. And then also, I think it's great. It's like we're all evolving to be on this planet, which is getting harder to be on. And we know that meat takes a lot of resources. And like, now I don't. Now I'm not doing that. So, like, the tick is helping me evolve into a better human being.

[Latif Nasser]

So one could, instead of thinking of the tick as your teeny weeny, irritating enemy, you could think of it as a guiding light making the world safer to share with your fellow earthlings.

[Amy Pearl]

Yeah. So you may have lost your relationship with meat, but at least you have your moral superiority. Yeah. I mean, I am superior.

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

Yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

So huge thanks to Amy Pearl for telling a story which never stopped, never stopped being scary and wonderful. And to the fellow who brought her into the room, Dan Pashman, whose podcast the Sporkful Is it's all about food in every conceivable way. Like, he talks about eating it, preparing it, worrying about it, as you've heard, getting sick from it, getting fat from it, whatever. And you can find his show on itunes or stitcher or on the [e-mail] and this story was produced by Annie McKeown and Matt Kilty, with reporting help from Latif Nasser. See you next time.

[Lulu Miller]

All right, so that was the original piece. We're going to take a quick break now, but when we come back, Sara and Sren are going to follow the thread from Amy's allergy to this brand new genetically modified pig that can help a human who needs a kidney and also maybe solve Amy's problem.

[Amy Pearl]

Or maybe make it worse.

[Lulu Miller]

Stick with us. Radiolab is supported by Capital One with no fees or minimums on checking accounts. It's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how Capital One cafes are open since seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com Bank Guy Capital One NA member FDIC Radiolab is supported by Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer center in a small, groundbreaking clinical trial. 100% of participants with a specific type of rectal cancer saw their tumors disappear using immunotherapy alone. Researchers at MSK are now studying this approach in cancers of the stomach, liver, and more. And a majority of tumors are disappearing for MSK giving day. All gifts will be tripled. Learn [e-mail] Radiolab

[Amy Pearl]

A new state Department report blames Cuba for fomenting an anti American left. Meanwhile, the GOP is pushing the C word hard.

[Latif Nasser]

The barbarians are in the gate.

[Amy Pearl]

Look, 35 years ago, Republicans and Democrats

[Latif Nasser]

in Congress were fighting communism on a distant shore. Now it's here.

[Amy Pearl]

Why communism and why now on this week's on the Media from wnyc.

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

Find on the media wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sara Khari]

Recording. Walking into nyu, this building, huge.

[Dan Pashman]

Hello.

[Sara Khari]

Hello.

[Dan Pashman]

All right.

[Sara Khari]

How are you? I'm doing well. I don't know. Do we shake hands?

[Dan Pashman]

I don't know.

[Sara Khari]

I haven't. Haven't done this in a really long time. So you ready for the radio lab?

[Dan Pashman]

Yeah, sure.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yep.

[Sara Khari]

Everybody, come on in. Awesome.

[Lulu Miller]

So our update today comes to us from producer Sara Kari, who you just heard wandering the halls of NYU's Lingone Health Hospital back in 2021. That is when we made this update.

[Amy Pearl]

Hello.

[Sara Khari]

Hi, guys.

[Dan Pashman]

Hello.

[Peter Smith]

Hello.

[Sara Khari]

This is really exciting.

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

As well as our executive editor, Thorin Willy Wheelie Wheeler. I can give us a start if you want me to.

[Amy Pearl]

All right.

[Sara Khari]

Yeah. Actually, yeah, you should tell us how you even had the idea.

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

Yeah, I mean, I had the idea by someone else having had an idea that I saw their idea in a newspaper.

[Amy Pearl]

It's called reading.

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

No, but, like, I don't know, what, a month ago, maybe? I was reading the news. The news I was reading was the New York Times. Heard of it? Heard of it. It was like a science section news thing. And the article is basically announcing this big breakthrough news this evening about a major medical breakthrough.

[Graham Hickling]

It's been called an astonishing step in medicine.

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

Basically, a group of surgeons had managed to put a pig kidney into a human being. And it worked, Successfully transferring a pig kidney to a human patient. For the first time ever, the person's body didn't reject the kidney. Which when you think about all the people waiting on kidneys, you know, game changer. Yeah, totally. So I'm just. I'm reading through this article, but then in the middle of it, there's just a couple lines about the particular pig that they used for this kidney that drew this very weird line back to a story we had told here on Radio Left. That's when I. So I brought in Sara to, like, report this whole thing out.

[Sara Khari]

So I actually went to talk to the doctor who did this transplant. Hi, how's it going?

[Dan Pashman]

Nice to meet you. How do you do?

[Sara Khari]

Good. How are you? His name is Robert Montgomery. He's at NYU Langone Health, and he's the head of transplant surgery there. So when did it first occur to you that transplanting a pig kidney into a human would even be. I just started with the most basic question, which is like, why would you do this?

[Dan Pashman]

Because we don't have an adequate supply of organs for the people who need them, when they need them. And so a lot of people die waiting. And so the idea of xenotranspl.

[Sara Khari]

And he just made the argument that using animal kidneys was the best way that he could think of to make

[Dan Pashman]

a dent into that waiting list of 90,000 people.

[Lulu Miller]

And do you know, is this person still walking around? And is the pig still walking around?

[Latif Nasser]

Good question.

[Sara Khari]

So, no.

[Dan Pashman]

We did this transplant, and someone who had been declared brain dead, who had wanted to donate their organs but were unable to donate their organs. And so their family essentially donated their whole body so that we could test a xenotransplant.

[Sara Khari]

Like, we're gonna try this crazy thing that's never been done and see how

[Dan Pashman]

it goes and determine whether this was gonna be safe to move into living humans.

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

I guess a proof of concept type thing. They didn't want to.

[Sara Khari]

Yeah. So the family agreed, and the doctors did the transplant. And they could see, you know, like, that it worked. And the body wasn't rejecting the kidney. The kidney was doing its kidney stuff. But the sort of amazing thing is,

[Dan Pashman]

actually, as we sit here today, the same thing happened yesterday.

[Sara Khari]

While we were sitting there talking.

[Dan Pashman]

He told me, you know, we. At two in the morning, we did our second xenotransplant.

[Sara Khari]

We actually just did the second one. You wanna see what that's, like, happening right now?

[Dan Pashman]

That's happening right now. And if you wanna, you know, come down with me, I'll show you what we're doing. So.

[Sara Khari]

And I was like, yes. And he took me downstairs to this big room.

[Amy Pearl]

It's like a conference room.

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

Okay.

[Sara Khari]

It was totally silent. There was a window looking into this operating room.

[Amy Pearl]

Okay, can we walk up to the glass?

[Sara Khari]

And you could see just the jumble of machines and medical equipment. What are we looking at?

[Dan Pashman]

All right, so there's a ventilator over here.

[Sara Khari]

And in the middle of the room,

[Dan Pashman]

you could see this person, that's the

[Sara Khari]

recipient, lying there on the table, covered by this blue surgical shroud. You can see the patient's body, kind of like.

[Amy Pearl]

Right. Rising and falling as they breathe.

[Sara Khari]

Yeah.

[Dan Pashman]

It's the ventilator, you know, and they

[Sara Khari]

actually attach the kidney at the person's thigh because they sort of wanna be able to watch it and they're not worried about the person getting up and walking around. So there's this incision at the thigh, and in that oval incision, you could see the pig kidney kind of like poking out. It was, like, covered by plastic. And Dr. Montgomery told me that, you know, when a body rejects a kidney,

[Dan Pashman]

the kidney will literally turn black moments after the blood goes into a.

[Sara Khari]

But you could see, like, with this one, it was bright pink and kind of amazingly, just like the first one.

[Dan Pashman]

Within moments, it started to make urine, believe it or not. And so we knew right away that it was working. See right where it's dripping in, See how fast it's dripping? All that urine is coming out from that kidney.

[Sara Khari]

So, you know, this is just the second one that worked. But eventually, Dr. Montgomery and his team want to get to the point where they can do clinical trials on people who are walking around and doing things and living their lives. And who would hold onto this kidney.

[Amy Pearl]

Wow.

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

Allow me to presume that you have two questions, which I think you do, even if you haven't said them yet, which is like, one, why did this never work before? And then two, why are we even telling you this? It's not our usual stick to just pick up a New York Times Science news article and relay that to you.

[Amy Pearl]

Fair.

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

Which brings me back to that little part of the article that piqued my interest in the beginning, because the pig that they got the kidney from to do this was a very special pig. Normally, pigs and other mammals that aren't primates have a sugar in their body that our bodies don't have. And so we don't like it or see it as foreign. And that's why usually an organ from another animal would get rejected. But this pig had been genetically modified. It had had the gene that makes that sugar removed. So it didn't have that sugar, which is part of the reason this worked. And that sugar just so happens to be called Alpha Gal.

[Amy Pearl]

Alpha Gal. There it is.

[Lulu Miller]

There's the Radiolab connection.

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

Our old friend of me.

[Dan Pashman]

It's really only the food that was kind of eluding us because we've known and have been also pursuing various medical device applications of the Galaxy Safe Pig. You know, we've had conversations with.

[Sara Khari]

So I actually called up the company that makes this pig. They call it the Galsafe Pig. The company itself is called Revivicore.

[Dan Pashman]

Started out as the U.S. division of the Scottish company that cloned Dolly the sheep.

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

Oh, the UK Company that did Dolly the sheep. This is like their sort of like, American offshore. Got it.

[Sara Khari]

Okay.

[Dan Pashman]

And from there, we actually cloned the world's first.

[Sara Khari]

So anyway, I talked to David Ayers. He's the company's chief scientific officer, and

[Amy Pearl]

also John Bianchi, lead product development enterprises at Revivicor. And I also am in charge of regulatory affairs.

[Sara Khari]

So at what point. And either of you can take this. At what point did you guys realize. Okay. And I just wanted to ask them, like, okay, you made this pig for all of these medical transplant reasons, but did you know about the whole food side of things?

[Amy Pearl]

I'll take this one, Dave. Unless. Sure, I'm the poor SAP that had to work with the fda. I shouldn't say that. It was a very collaborative effort with the fda.

[Sara Khari]

And they told me that while they were in the middle of getting FDA approval for this pig to be used for medical reasons, they heard a certain radio show.

[Amy Pearl]

After listening to the radio lab episode, the original episode, and listening to Amy Pearl, we thought, why not just expand the application to include food?

[Dan Pashman]

We realized that the pigs that we had developed so that their organs wouldn't be rejected would also be a food source for these patients that have the Alpha Gal allergy or the red meat allergy.

[Sara Khari]

Okay, wait, so hearing Amy Pearl on our show had the something to do with thinking that, oh, we should make this a food product.

[Amy Pearl]

It was absolutely a motivation of mine. After listening to Amy. What?

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

Yeah, totally.

[Sara Khari]

Yes. So, yeah. Now, because of Amy Pearl and her story, this pig is now FDA approved for medical devices and things like that and transplants, but also for food to use the meat of those pigs to make pork products that, like, people with Alpha Gal syndrome can eat.

[Amy Pearl]

Wow.

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

So, of course, we immediately, like, called up Amy Pearl, and we're like, amy Pearl, Amy Pearl.

[Amy Pearl]

Pearl, Pearl.

[Lulu Miller]

Hello.

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

We got something to tell you.

[Amy Pearl]

Look at this.

[Latif Nasser]

Oh, no.

[Amy Pearl]

Oh, my God.

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

How do you always have, like, tiny little bundles of cuteness in your life?

[Sara Khari]

When we talked to her, she had a couple of really small foster kittens, like, scrambling up and down her shoulders and mewing in the background.

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

So we explained to her, you know, the whole deal. There's this pig that doesn't have Alpha Gal that's being used for transplants from which you could make meat that would be safe to eat for people like you, Amy Pearl.

[Amy Pearl]

Ugh. It's kind of. I mean, I just. I feel kind of disgusted because it's been a long time, long time since I've had porl or beef. I found Plenty of delicious things to eat that aren't bacon.

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

And she said that, you know, even if there is now some pork that's totally safe, she still feels sort of the same way she did at the end of the original show, which is that she's kind of just over red meat.

[Amy Pearl]

I've kind of moved on from it, honestly, and, and happily it sounds. Yeah, I feel like it's better for my peace of mind. It's better for my health. It's better for the plan itself, and I feel lucky and happy. It's kind of like.

[Sara Khari]

But then, of course, you know, we had to tell her that, you know, we talked to the guys at Revivicore and that she and her story were sort of an inspiration for this meat becoming available to people. I'll just play you a clip of something they said to me.

[Amy Pearl]

It was absolutely a motivation of mine. After listening to Amy me when I heard the Radio Lab podcast, I'm thinking,

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

well, we hold the hammer.

[Amy Pearl]

Oh, God, great. I mean, it's so funny. Oh, oh, well. But it's fine. I mean, I, I, I guess he sounds like such a nice guy.

[Sara Khari]

Say more, say more on what you feel.

[Dan Pashman]

What's.

[Sara Khari]

What were you thinking as you heard it? You sort of, like, hung your head.

[Amy Pearl]

I mean, I was thinking that never

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

should have gone on a Radio Lab.

[Amy Pearl]

I'm just, like, always thinking misanthropic things. But I was thinking, like, here's a person who's, like, hears me just, like, talking about how delicious meat is and, like, juices, and they're like, yeah, I love meat, too. And they're like, she's seems sad. I'm gonna make meat for her. And then it's like, But I actually don't really. I actually. Anyway, I can make it for you. I figured it out. I have the hammer, but I actually don't want. It's okay. I'm making it. Here it is.

[Sara Khari]

I think she felt like because of her, they'd gone and solved this problem that she didn't even really want solved.

[Amy Pearl]

It's just kind of like you would, like, go to some kind of special FDA store to buy some special genetically modified pork just so you could have a bite of some kind of meat. I mean, it just was like, I don't know. Do you guys ever get into philosophy? It just, like, immediately for me, when you say, oh, they created this pig that you can, that alpha gal. People can eat my neck. Thought is like, what is the meaning of life? Why am I here?

[Sara Khari]

Wait, why do you think you can

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

close the gap between those two for

[Lulu Miller]

us a little bit?

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

Like, are there some intermediate stuff?

[Amy Pearl]

Because it's like, well, is that good or bad? Well, I guess it's good for people who want to eat pork, but it's bad for the pig. It just immediately brings to mind and you know how to live. Do you live to satisfy your desires and be happy, or do you live to not harm others? Or why are we even here? Are pigs below us? Are they above us? Is it okay to put a pig first? Like, what if someone's kid is dying of kidney cancer?

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

Well, see that Then now, like, that's now how? Like, like, you know, this question has another whole layer because it's not just that they made a pig for people who got bit by a tick, but wish they could still have a hot dog. They also then it turns out, made a pig that, like, could maybe have a kidney that could save a life where there's no other kidney available, or maybe in the future, more and more and more things.

[Amy Pearl]

But it's just. It's kind of like when you start thinking about breeding animals just for organs for people, it's like redeciding all over again. Like, should we be eating another animal that might be intelligent? It's like you just answering all those questions again, but for another purpose. Because, like, you can get kidneys out of other people and they're. It's like, safe and.

[Sara Khari]

Yeah, that's a good point. And I asked this guy, this doctor, about this and was sort of pushing him on, like, why? Like, you've just opened the door to, like, a whole new way of exploiting animals. And I think his thing, which I'm convinced by honestly, is like, look, there are 90,000 people right now, right now that need a kidney. And when it comes to, like, making the decision for yourself or, like, for a loved one, if you're like, they need a kidney and you have the option to put a pig kidney in them, you're like, that's not even a question. You know, we eat millions of pigs anyway. I guess on balance, I feel okay.

[Amy Pearl]

You know, I mean, I totally agree with you, but why don't they just. Why don't they just make a fake kidney? Yeah, I mean, I mean, if somebody, like, imagine humans did not think, like, like, oh, it's okay to take to, like, kill an animal just to get its kidney for someone else, it was like, not even something that crossed their mind. We would have invented a plastic kidney by now, probably.

[Sara Khari]

So at this point in the interview, unfortunately, we Actually, still had one more thing that we had to tell Amy that we learned from the guys at Revivicor. I do have to tell you something that you might. Might like even less.

[Amy Pearl]

What? They named the. They named the pig Amy before they hit it with the hammer.

[Sara Khari]

Yeah. Yeah, they did what? Yeah.

[Amy Pearl]

Are you kidding us? Are you kidding?

[Sara Khari]

No, I'm not. I'm not kidding.

[Amy Pearl]

By the way, the first pig that meant went to market, we named Amy

[Sara Khari]

after Amy Pearl, of course.

[Amy Pearl]

Well, I did it.

[Sara Khari]

Oh, my gosh.

[Amy Pearl]

I'm not sure Dave approved that name, but it. What did they name the one who donated the kidneys?

[Sara Khari]

No, no. First one that they slaughtered for meat, they named it Amy and unofficially, but. But, you know. They did.

[Amy Pearl]

Yeah. I mean, I can see why they picked something that was, like, motivating for them, like, humanizing and motivating in their. Their, like, quest to solve this thing that they decided was a good problem to put their thoughts behind. I mean, it can't bother me. I can't let myself think about that. Poor, poor, poor, poor living creatures that suffer.

[Sara Khari]

Yeah. But I do think it's good. I am grateful that, like, you are holding the position of making all of us think twice, including me. Like, I think I've been part of the, like, oh, this is a breakthrough. And look at the pig kidney and the human. And the heart is beating and everything is working. It's so cool. And I do think that it's really helpful for that you're reminding me there is a cost to this that we shouldn't ignore and that, you know, that we should challenge our imaginations almost to imagine a world where we don't have to exploit these pigs and find another way.

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

There could be some young budding scientist that'll listen to this version of the story and come up with an artificial kidney and name it Amy.

[Amy Pearl]

That would be great. That would be great.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah.

[Sara Khari]

I think that's the only way to make this right.

[Amy Pearl]

It's funny to think that there's, like. I mean, how big was this pig at the end? Like, usually pigs, I guess, when they slaughter them for meat, maybe they're smaller. But, like, I met a pig in Vermont that was, like, 800 pounds, and I gave her a whole watermelon, and to her it was like.

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

Like a gumdrop. Thanks.

[Amy Pearl]

Yeah. I mean, she was just giant. I took a hoe. I was, like, scratching her back with a hoe, and it just, like, looked like a little toothbrush on her, and she was like, ah, that feels so good. I mean, I Wonder if Amy got

[Sara Khari]

to be that big. I wonder.

[Amy Pearl]

800 pound Amy, pretty formidable. Watch out. I'm just like now I'm wishing I could change places with her and then I'll have done my time and like, I would have now be like, left the mortal coil and she would be sitting here in this interview with her pig intelligence, which is plenty for this probably.

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

You think she could raise those kittens and then she would end up on like one of those unlikely friendship calendars where it's like, look at the pig raising the kittens.

[Amy Pearl]

I wonder if there's a resemblance. What an incredible turn of events.

[Sara Khari]

What are you thinking?

[Amy Pearl]

I'm just thinking about, like, Amy the pig going about her business, you know, with no thought to any of this. Just imagining like, oh, it's so warm here in the mud. I'm gonna stay here for a little while. Oh, I'm hungry. I'm gonna go check out the trough for a while. Just like that thing kind of. That kind of living. I don't know. When your brain hurts, you just have to like, retreat to your body.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah.

[Lulu Miller]

Thank you, Amy Pearl, for coming on the show again and making us think more deeply than we were again.

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

This update to the episode was reported and produced by Sara Khari.

[Dan Pashman]

And also a thank you to Amy the pig.

[Lulu Miller]

Thank you, Amy the Pig. Okay, and, and finally an update to the update. It is now Lulu. In 2026 and back in March of 2024, surgeons transplanted a pig kidney into a living patient for the very first time. That patient was a 62 year old man living with end stage kidney disease. His name was Rick Slayman and he lived with the kidney for about two more months before dying from heart issues, which his doctor said were unrelated to the transplant. The pig, for its part, was genetically edited, of course, but we couldn't find out any more information about its life or name. Thank you to the pig for its service.

[Sara Khari]

Hi, I'm Gabby. I'm from the Bay Area, California. And here are the staff credits. Radiolab is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif not so. Soren Wheeler is our executive editor. Sarah Sandbach is our executive director. Our managing editor is Pat Walters. Dylan Keefe is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Jeremy Bloom, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Maria Paz, Gutierrez, Sindhu Nyanasambandan, Matt Kielty, Mona Maudgaukar, Alex Neeson, Sara Khari, Natalia Ramirez, Joanna Strogatz, Anissa Vitze, Arian Wack, Molly Webster and Jessica Young, with help from Gabby Santis and Maya Appleby Melamed. Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, Natalie Middleton, Angeli Mercado, and Sophie Semay.

[Amy Pearl]

Hi, I'm Monica and I'm coming from Mexico City. Leadership support for Radiolab science programming is provided by the Simons foundation and the John Templeton Foundation.

[Latif Nasser]

Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by

[Amy Pearl]

the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

[Lulu Miller]

Thanks for listening to Return of the Alpha Gal. If you just didn't get enough of that sweet tick allergy content, you should check out what our neighbors and fellow science lovers Science Friday put together on the subject. Their episode is appropriately titled How Does a Tick Bite Cause a Red Meat Allergy? In it, you'll hear them talk with one of the first allergists to connect the allergy to tick bites. Almost 20 years ago, the latest research into the Alpha Gal syndrome, and how, almost two decades later, there are still so many mysteries, including why some people are more susceptible to developing the allergy than others and giving hints about which blood types make your risk higher or lower. To learn more, check out the conversation on Science Friday's podcast by searching for how does a Tick Bite Cause a Red Meat allergy? Wherever you cast your pods

[Thorin Willy Wheeler]

Suffering from

[Peter Smith]

dry, tired, irritated eyes? Don't let dry eyes win.

[Latif Nasser]

Use Sustain Pro.

[Peter Smith]

It hydrates, restores and protects dry eyes for up to 12 hours.

[Latif Nasser]

Sustain Pro Triple Action Dry Eye Relief.