Sex, Ducks and the Founding Feud

Summary

Radiolab Podcast Summary: "Sex, Ducks and the Founding Feud"

Release Date: June 27, 2025
Hosts: Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser
Produced by: WNYC Studios

---

Introduction: Revisiting a Foundational Legal Feud

In the episode titled "Sex, Ducks and the Founding Feud," Radiolab delves deep into the intricate dynamics of federalism in the United States, intertwining a personal tale of betrayal with a pivotal Supreme Court case. Hosts Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser guide listeners through a narrative that not only entertains but also illuminates the enduring conflicts between state and federal powers.

---

The Tangled Web of Betrayal and Poison

The story centers around Carol Ann Bond, a 36-year-old microbiologist from suburban Philadelphia. Carol discovers that her husband has been unfaithful with her best friend, Merlinda Haynes, who is now pregnant with his child. Overwhelmed by rage and betrayal, Carol embarks on a vengeful path, repeatedly attempting to poison Merlinda.

• Duncan Hollis introduces the case:
  "Carol Ann Bond, 36, lives in a suburb of Philly... she tried to poison her best friend repeatedly."
  (05:03)

Carol meticulously gathers toxic chemicals, including arsenic, some sourced from her workplace and others ordered online. She targets Merlinda by spreading these substances on doorknobs, mailboxes, and even car doors, totaling 24 powder attacks over six months. Despite her attempts, Merlinda sustains only minor injuries, and Carol's actions eventually draw legal attention.

---

A Landmark Constitutional Clash: Missouri vs. Holland

To understand the legal ramifications of Carol's case, Radiolab takes a step back to explore the Missouri vs. Holland (1920) Supreme Court decision, which fundamentally shaped the balance of power between state and federal governments.

The 1919 Duck Shooting Incident

In rural Missouri, Frank McAllister, the state's Attorney General, and his friends engage in the rampant hunting of ducks, amassing 76 birds in a single spree. Their actions, though sanctioned by state law, attract the attention of Ray Holland, a federal game warden, who asserts that these ducks are not private property and thus cannot be hunted under state jurisdiction.

• Nick Rosenkrans explains the onset of the conflict:
  "You can shoot the ducks. So they're out there, they're having this great time... But the game warden says, no, it's not your property."
  (21:14)

Holland arrests the hunters, leading to a courtroom battle over the jurisdiction of federal treaties versus state laws.

The Supreme Court's Decision

Referencing the historic case, the episode highlights Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.'s pivotal role in upholding the Migratory Bird Treaty Act through the lens of the Constitution's Supremacy Clause, which declares treaties as the "supreme law of the land."

• Robert Krulwich summarizes Holmes' stance:
  "We spent all this sweat and blood to figure out what kind of nation we were going to become for birds."
  (23:18)

This decision affirmed the federal government's authority to regulate activities that cross state lines or have national significance, setting a precedent for future federal interventions.

---

Connecting the Dots: Carol Ann Bond's Federal Charge

Drawing parallels between the Missouri case and Carol's actions, Radiolab illustrates how federal authorities leveraged the International Chemical Weapons Treaty to prosecute her for using toxic chemicals, despite the local nature of her crimes.

• Latif Nasser poses a critical question:
  "It's a document which allows us to continue to discuss and debate the core issues that we face."
  (14:24)

By classifying Carol's poisoning attempts under an international treaty, the federal government extended its reach into what would traditionally be considered state jurisdiction, reigniting debates about the extent of federal power.

---

Debate and Implications: Federalism in Modern America

The episode navigates the complex terrain of federalism, questioning whether treaties and federal laws should have supremacy over state decisions in all matters. It juxtaposes historical precedents with contemporary issues, such as educational standards and environmental regulations, highlighting the ongoing tug-of-war between centralized authority and state autonomy.

• Joseph J. Ellis reflects on the Constitution's flexibility:
  "The Constitution isn't a set of answers. It's a framework for argument."
  (14:21)

Experts like John Bellinger, a legal advisor and constitutional scholar, weigh in, emphasizing the practical limitations and the necessity of federal cooperation in an increasingly interconnected world.

---

Conclusion: The Aftermath and Ongoing Debates

In a twist revealed towards the episode's end, the Supreme Court revisits Carol Ann Bond's case, ultimately ruling unanimously that she did not violate the Chemical Weapons Convention Treaty. This decision leaves many questions about federal overreach unanswered, ensuring that the debate over federal versus state power remains as relevant as ever.

• Latif Nasser concludes:
  "So lucky for us, we can keep arguing about it for another hundred years."
  (29:58)

Carol's personal turmoil and the legal battle that ensued serve as a microcosm for America's enduring struggle to balance individual actions with overarching national laws.

---

Notable Quotes

• Duncan Hollis on the nature of the federal charge:
  "But to charge her with an international treaty violation, it just seems, it seems too big for the little lady."
  (08:19)

• Kelsey Padgett on Madison's constitutional philosophy:
  "This is an argument that was actually literally written into our founding document. In some sense, we are, as a country, the product of that argument."
  (15:36)

• Joseph J. Ellis on the Constitution's adaptability:
  "The Constitution isn't a set of answers. It's a framework for argument."
  (14:21)

---

Final Thoughts

"Sex, Ducks and the Founding Feud" masterfully intertwines a gripping personal narrative with a significant legal and historical examination, offering listeners a nuanced understanding of federalism's complexities. Through engaging storytelling and insightful analysis, Radiolab underscores the persistent relevance of foundational debates in shaping contemporary American society.

Transcript

[Sponsor Announcer]

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[Latif Nasser]

Radiolab is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law, not available in all states. Hey you beautiful listeners, it's Latif and Lulu. Summer is officially here and we have a brand new series out, Swimming with Shadows, A Radiolab week of Shark. Five brand new episodes all about sharks.

[Lulu Miller]

And to tempt you into the waters of supporting Radiolab by joining our membership program, the Lab, we have a brand new piece of very sharky merch. It is a baseball hat designed by the illustrator Ty Williams. And not only is it gorgeous, it will protect you from the thing at the beach that is actually way more dangerous than sharks.

[Latif Nasser]

Seagulls?

[Lulu Miller]

No.

[Latif Nasser]

Volleyballs, Paparazzi, sunshine. Okay, all right. When you join the Lab, you will also get access to our entire back catalog with over 20 years of episodes completely ad free. Plus you get access to bonus content and other special perks.

[Lulu Miller]

Membership starts at just $7 a month. Go to Radiolab.org join to look at the hat and see if supporting Radiolab is for you.

[Latif Nasser]

That's Radiolab.org join hey, this is Radiolab. I'm Latif Nasser, and ever since I came to this country, the United States, and became a citizen here, one thing you notice is that everyone is always arguing about who gets to decide. There is this constant power play in this country between the federal government and the state governments. And it's like no matter what issue you are looking at, whether it's immigration or climate change or AI regulation or, you know, a million other things, somehow there's this question of who gets to decide who gets power over what. And honestly, I just get so tired of that conversation. It feels super important. It's obviously very high stakes, but it can get so tedious and technical and just makes your eyes glaze over. So today I want to play for you a story that, when I first heard, just made that question pop out at me in a completely different way. It made that question actually interesting, and it told it in a way that was actually a little bit scandalous. We originally released this episode back in 2013. I'm excited for you to hear it or rehear it. The episode is called Sex Ducks and the Founding Feud. Enjoy.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Wait, you're listening.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay.

[Kelsey Padgett]

All right.

[Duncan Hollis]

Okay.

[Kelsey Padgett]

All right. You're listening to Radiolab.

[Duncan Hollis]

Radiolab from W ny.

[Nick Rosenkrans]

Rewind.

[Kelsey Padgett]

Today on the podcast, Robert, we're going to talk constitutional law, federalism, and. And the intricacies of international treaty practice.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh, God.

[Latif Nasser]

You ready? No.

[Kelsey Padgett]

It's gonna be good. It's gonna be good. It's gonna be good because I have help.

[Duncan Hollis]

Hey, guys.

[Robert Krulwich]

Hi, Kelsey.

[Duncan Hollis]

Hello.

[Kelsey Padgett]

Kelsey Badgett has reported this segment and just listen to how it starts.

[Duncan Hollis]

So this story starts with a betrayed spouse.

[Kelsey Padgett]

Ooh. You see?

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh, it's much better. I'm coming back to my seat.

[Kelsey Padgett]

Get some popcorn.

[Nick Rosenkrans]

My name's Duncan Hollis.

[Duncan Hollis]

He's not the betrayed spouse.

[Nick Rosenkrans]

Nope. I'm a professor of international law here at Temple University in Philadelphia.

[Joseph J. Ellis]

And I'm Nick Rosenkrans.

[Duncan Hollis]

And not him either.

[Joseph J. Ellis]

I'm a professor of law at Georgetown. I'm also a senior fellow in constitutional studies at the cato institute. So Mrs. Bond.

[Duncan Hollis]

That's her. That's our betrayed spouse. Carol Ann Bond, 36, lives in a suburb of Philly.

[Joseph J. Ellis]

Discovered that her husband was having an affair with her neighbor.

[Duncan Hollis]

Actually, it was worse than that. This woman was her best friend.

[Nick Rosenkrans]

Not only that, she finds out that her friend is pregnant via her husband.

[Duncan Hollis]

He got her pregnant.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh, my God.

[Duncan Hollis]

Yeah. And this is her best friend and her husband of 14 years.

[Nick Rosenkrans]

You know, she was quite upset. Distraught.

[Kelsey Padgett]

Enraged, I would imagine.

[Duncan Hollis]

Yeah. Carol made threats. There were confrontations. The other woman is named Merlinda Haynes, by the way. And eventually, Carol Ann Bond, she did.

[Joseph J. Ellis]

What anyone would do. She got a bunch of toxic chemicals.

[Robert Krulwich]

And I do it all the time.

[Duncan Hollis]

And she tried to poison her best friend repeatedly.

[Kelsey Padgett]

Whoa, back up for a second. Where would she have gotten the chemicals from?

[Joseph J. Ellis]

She worked, I believe, at a lab.

[Nick Rosenkrans]

She works for a chemical company. I think it's Roman Haas.

[Robert Krulwich]

So she's a biochemist.

[Duncan Hollis]

She's actually a microbiologist. But she grabs some chemicals from her office.

[Nick Rosenkrans]

I think she also orders some off the Internet, Amazon.com. but they're pretty serious chemicals.

[Kelsey Padgett]

Like what?

[Nick Rosenkrans]

Well, one was arsenic based, and in large enough doses. And when I say large doses, I'm Talking teaspoons, not gallons. It can cause serious injury and can be fatal.

[Duncan Hollis]

So, anyway, she took these chemicals, she went over to her best friend's, or, well, her former best friend's house, and.

[Joseph J. Ellis]

She spread them on the doorknob and on the mailbox, the door to her car.

[Nick Rosenkrans]

And they're visible, I guess. I guess you can see them.

[Kelsey Padgett]

So the best friend isn't fooled.

[Nick Rosenkrans]

Nope. She calls, actually, the local police. The local police tell her to take her car to a car wash. They said, oh, you know, it could be drugs. We'll get the car washed off.

[Duncan Hollis]

They kind of just blow her off. But it keeps happening over the course of, like, half a year. This happens 24 times.

[Robert Krulwich]

24 powder attacks.

[Duncan Hollis]

Mm. According to the court briefs. You know, the police were just not being very responsive. She called them over a dozen times, and they tested it to see if it was cocaine. But once they figured out it wasn't, they didn't really do anything. So finally, she tells the post office.

[Nick Rosenkrans]

And it was the post office that actually sent out postal inspectors. And they set up a hidden camera.

[Duncan Hollis]

And they videotaped Carol Anne Bond in the act.

[Robert Krulwich]

They get it on tape.

[Nick Rosenkrans]

That's how they identify her as the person putting the chemicals on the mailbox.

[Kelsey Padgett]

I didn't know the post office did stuff like that.

[Nick Rosenkrans]

To be honest, I didn't either.

[Kelsey Padgett]

That's so. I think of them so differently now.

[Joseph J. Ellis]

Yes. And I think if there's a moral to the story, it is do not mess with the males. They take that very seriously.

[Duncan Hollis]

Actually, there's a whole lot more going on than just messing with the mail because of what happens next. So according to Nick Rosenkrantz, generally things like assault or attempted murder, those are state crimes. In most circumstances, the federal government can't charge you with murder. The post office, that's a federal institution. So when they caught Carol Anne Bond, they kicked this up to the federal.

[Joseph J. Ellis]

Attorney, who then went ahead and brought a federal case.

[Duncan Hollis]

And here's the thing. They ended up charging Carol Ann Bond with violating the International Chemical Weapons Treaty.

[Robert Krulwich]

What?

[Joseph J. Ellis]

We should be clear. The victim got a tiny thumb burn and ran cold water on it and was fine. So this is. We're not. This is not murder.

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, that makes this all the more odd.

[Joseph J. Ellis]

Very odd.

[Robert Krulwich]

When I poison someone, the last thing I'm thinking about is violating an international treaty.

[Kelsey Padgett]

We should never have you over for lunch.

[Robert Krulwich]

But no, really, why would they charge you with that? I don't understand.

[Duncan Hollis]

Well, if you actually read the treaty.

[Latif Nasser]

The statute simply says that it's a crime to use a toxic chemical for other than a peaceful purpose.

[Duncan Hollis]

That's the exact language. And that guy, that's John Bellinger.

[Latif Nasser]

I served as the legal advisor for the Department of State under Secretary Condoleezza Rice.

[Duncan Hollis]

And John says that even though it sounds a little weird, this is exactly what this treaty was meant for.

[Latif Nasser]

For people using chemicals, highly toxic chemicals.

[Duncan Hollis]

For non peaceful purposes.

[Latif Nasser]

Exactly right.

[Kelsey Padgett]

And that's what happened here.

[Duncan Hollis]

Imagine if she had killed all a bunch of postal workers, then I don't.

[Latif Nasser]

Think anybody would complain.

[Robert Krulwich]

But to charge her with an international treaty violation, it just seems, it seems too big for the little lady.

[Duncan Hollis]

It was really odd to her lawyers too. I bet they're like, look, in the Constitution you have laid out what the federal government could do. This is not one of those things. You can't just take a treaty and use it to reach into the very local life of a normal person. That's a huge, huge overreach.

[Robert Krulwich]

Sneaky, frankly.

[Duncan Hollis]

And now this case is before the Supreme Court and it's become an ideological battle that goes way beyond Carol Anne Bond, her cheating husband, or her adulterous best friend.

[Kelsey Padgett]

And I would argue that this case, as weird as it is, raises some really important issues about how the world is changing and about one of the most fundamental questions that is at the heart of America. I, I, I, I, I really believe that.

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, you have to defend that position. What do you, what do you mean?

[Kelsey Padgett]

Let me take you back to the beginning. Okay, sure.

[John Bellinger]

My name is Joseph J. Ellis. I am a historian. I've written the book called Founding Brothers and my most recent book is called, what's it called? Revolutionary Summer.

[Robert Krulwich]

You are a modest man.

[Kelsey Padgett]

So Joseph Ellis has written a, he's a Pulitzer Prize winning author, has written a bunch of books about the founding of our country, the Revolutionary War. And there is a scene in one of his books, book called American Creation.

[John Bellinger]

Didn'T sell as many as Founding Brothers.

[Kelsey Padgett]

Doesn't matter to me because it has this one passage that when I read it I was like, wow, I've never thought of this country that way. To set the scene, you want to be real specific. It's September, September 1787, Philadelphia.

[John Bellinger]

You know, it's abominably hot, yet all.

[Kelsey Padgett]

These great men crammed into a state house. I mean, George Washington, this guy is a student, six foot three, war hero.

[John Bellinger]

This guy is overwhelming.

[Kelsey Padgett]

Alexander Hamilton was there.

[John Bellinger]

Hamilton. He would have got the highest grades on the LSATs. I'm telling you, this guy was really smart.

[Kelsey Padgett]

Even Ben Franklin.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah.

[Kelsey Padgett]

Who's pushing 81 at this point?

[John Bellinger]

Franklin's there.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh.

[Kelsey Padgett]

They all came together to try and figure out, like, how do we do this? Like, if you think about it, it was a puzzle because you've got these 13 colonies which are really like sovereign nations. They were loosely organized into a federation that was about to go bankrupt. So they had to do something. So they're like, okay, let's bring them together into a union. But how do we do that without a king? It was a crazy experiment.

[John Bellinger]

Well, I mean, one thing, you gotta realize that at that time in American history, the average person was born, lived out his or her life and died within a 30 mile radius. They don't have cell phones and they don't think about themselves as Americans.

[Kelsey Padgett]

They thought of themselves as Pennsylvanians, South Carolinians, Bostonians.

[John Bellinger]

There is no real national ethos.

[Kelsey Padgett]

So that's one problem. Second problem, the founding fathers could not agree, could not agree on the most basic question. If there's not a king, who's in charge? Right. The so called sovereignty question. And on the one hand you had a guy like Alexander Hamilton who got up there and was like, why do we even need states? What's a state? All right, what we need is a federal government that is big and strong and powerful.

[John Bellinger]

That's Hamilton, baby. Hamilton wants a president elected for life. Hamilton wants a senator elected for life.

[Kelsey Padgett]

On the other hand you had the Thomas Jefferson school of thought which was like, no, no, we just got out of a monarchy for Christ's sake. And the only way we're not going to get back in one is if we keep the government small, restricted, and.

[John Bellinger]

All domestic policy belongs in the hands of the states.

[Kelsey Padgett]

Sound familiar?

[John Bellinger]

Jefferson likes anything in which the government's not going to be doing much.

[Kelsey Padgett]

So you had these two very different philosophies. And the way Joe sees it, if.

[John Bellinger]

You let Jefferson have total power, we end up at anarchy. If you let Hamilton have total power, you're going to end up with a totalitarian state.

[Kelsey Padgett]

At the convention, the two sides went back and forth and anytime a Hamiltonian type proposal hit the floor, some of the states would say no and they'd shoot it down because they did not want some big government telling them what to do. Especially when the 800 pound gorilla in the room was slavery so they couldn't agree at all. And into this mess walks our hero, James Madison.

[John Bellinger]

Madison, you know, like Madison's 52120 Madison. He's the kind of guy that stands in the corners during a dance. You would call Him a nerd?

[Duncan Hollis]

Madison.

[Kelsey Padgett]

Or you might call him a pragmatist.

[John Bellinger]

Madison wants a clear decision about sovereignty.

[Kelsey Padgett]

Yeah. Like, for example, on local matters, who gets the final say, the states or the federal government? Just give me some clarity.

[John Bellinger]

And he's not going to get it. And he comes to that realization at.

[Kelsey Padgett]

The very end, because at the end of the convention, they have this document. I mean, he wrote the original blueprint. Now there's this new document so riddled with compromises that according to Joe, the basic question he wanted answered wasn't the who's in charge? Question was left kind of vague on all sorts of matters. I mean, who regulates money in banks? Who gets to tax what. Who decides whether new states will be slave states or free states? Who's vague? And initially, according to Joe, in a letter that Madison wrote to Thomas Jefferson, he's like, come on.

[John Bellinger]

He's very disappointed.

[Kelsey Padgett]

He thinks the document's gonna fail and the country's gonna fail.

[John Bellinger]

He doesn't think this is going to last.

[Kelsey Padgett]

But then Joe says in his writings, you start to see a shift.

[John Bellinger]

He starts to think differently. He starts to say, oh, yeah, wait a second. This. This could work. Precisely because it's unclear. And we found what he calls a.

[Kelsey Padgett]

Middle station, where everyone can see what they want to see.

[John Bellinger]

I mean, people come out of the convention, go back to their states, and the guy in South Carolina says, don't worry about slavery. The 10th amendment's going to tell us that they can't do that. The guy in Pennsylvania says, it's just a matter of time before we end slavery. The Constitution becomes successful because the people don't agree on what it means.

[Kelsey Padgett]

That, according to Joe, was Madison's epiphany.

[John Bellinger]

The Constitution isn't a set of answers. It's a framework for argument. This is a document which allows us to continue to discuss and debate the core issues that we face. The powers of the presidency, the sovereignty question. The real resolution of the sovereignty question is never achieved, and it eventually leads to the Civil War.

[Kelsey Padgett]

What I find kind of neat about this is that, like that argument that happens in modern politics all the time about states rights or the size of the government, which can feel like a random argument for me at times suddenly to know this. I mean, if you buy what Joe's saying, it's not random at all. This is an argument that was actually literally written into our founding document. In some sense, we are, as a country, are the product of that argument.

[Robert Krulwich]

Of course, not everybody agrees with Joseph Ellis. There are people who think that the Founding Fathers had a very specific thing in mind. And if you just go back to their debates and to what they said to each other, that you can find the real, only deep logic for the Constitution.

[Kelsey Padgett]

But yeah, but the fact that they disagree with Joe in some sense, doesn't that kind of make Joe's point that you can read this document in 10 different ways?

[Robert Krulwich]

Yes, everyone always argues, always.

[Kelsey Padgett]

You know, just to pick up the thread. I mean, after the Civil War, the argument changes, it gets centered.

[Robert Krulwich]

But the Union is still an experiment.

[Kelsey Padgett]

Yeah. Massachusetts can still do their business differently than Colorado, differently than Vermont.

[Robert Krulwich]

And the jostling between the federal government and the state government doesn't end. It just gets a little quieter. Thank heavens.

[Duncan Hollis]

Because you don't want to unless you're a duck.

[Latif Nasser]

Ducks right after this break.

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[Latif Nasser]

Just before the break, we were talking about how this whole country, the experiment that is the United States of America, has left us jostling between the federal government and the state governments. And Kelsey Padgett is about to tell us what all that has to do with ducks.

[Duncan Hollis]

So it's spring of 1919 rural Missouri. You've got Frank McAllister, the Attorney General of Missouri. He's out there with a bunch of friends, and they're pointing their guns at the sky and shooting ducks, one after another, after another. And they end up shooting, all in all, 76. He knows he can do this because, you know, he's the attorney general of the state. He knows all the laws of the state and he knows it's his right to shoot whatever duck is flying in the sky of Missouri.

[Kelsey Padgett]

It's the state law that you need.

[Duncan Hollis]

That's the state law. You can shoot the ducks. So they're out there, they're having this great time, they're having this great hall. They've gotten all these ducks. And then out of nowhere, Ray Holland, the federal game warden, shows up and he says, no, you can't do this. You can't shoot these birds. They're not your property. McAllister says, you, you're wrong.

[Nick Rosenkrans]

This is a matter for the state. You know, it's our sovereignty. We never gave this over to the federal government.

[Robert Krulwich]

So he must have been like, I don't think the federal government did anything to say to me about a duck that was born here. At least I look, I found it in the sky here, I shot it here, it died here, and I'm going to eat it here. So this is my duck.

[Duncan Hollis]

But the game warden says, no, it's not York duck. And he arrests them all, setting up a landmark confrontation. Because here's what had happened two years earlier. The administration of Woodrow Wilson was sitting there, wringing their hands, thinking, all these people are killing birds at like a non stop pace. And if this didn't stop, you know.

[Nick Rosenkrans]

There was some concern at this period that we were gonna, you know, we were gonna hunt these things to extinction. You know, we might not have any migratory birds at all.

[Duncan Hollis]

Problem is, the courts had already told the federal government, this is purely a local matter. You can't make federal hunting laws. But then somebody in the administration has this really great idea, or a really evil idea, depending on how you look at it.

[Nick Rosenkrans]

Maybe if we can get Canada to cooperate with us, we can do this by a treaty.

[Duncan Hollis]

Because there's this clause in the Constitution that says treaties are the supreme law of the land. So maybe if we make an international treaty, then the state states will have to go along. Frank McAllister, he sues. And this goes all the way up to the Supreme Court.

[Nick Rosenkrans]

It lands before Oliver Wendell Holmes, one of the more famous justices of the Supreme Court. And he basically says, the treaty power is something that was given to the federal government. Don't limit this. This treaty is good, and the treaty and the legislation are upheld.

[Kelsey Padgett]

So score one for the federal government.

[Nick Rosenkrans]

Score one for the federal government. And in there you actually have Holmes talking about what the Constitution is. He was this, what, thrice wounded Civil War veteran, and he actually invokes the language of the Civil War, saying, we spent all this sweat and blood to figure out what kind of nation we were going to become for birds. He invokes this language and basically says, whatever we had debated in the past, could the states regulate slavery without federal interference? And Holmes says, no. You know, the side who fought that argument, they lost.

[Duncan Hollis]

All this talk about birds and, you know, state versus federal has everything to do with our poisoner, Carol Anne Bond. This case is the precedent upon which the federal government says that they can prosecute Carol Anne Bond because Oliver Wendell Holmes said that treaties are the supreme law of the land.

[Robert Krulwich]

I don't know. I'm still of the mind that this is a sneaky bit of business by the federal government.

[Kelsey Padgett]

It's not sneaky if you're a duck. I feel I must speak on behalf of the ducks here.

[Robert Krulwich]

But no, forget your ducks. This is a Pennsylvania lady doing a Pennsylvania adultery in a Pennsylv mailbox with a Pennsylvania mood. I mean, there's nothing. There's no birds flying overhead. This is an all Pennsylvania crime.

[Duncan Hollis]

But you know, who wasn't doing a goddamn thing about that Pennsylvania. But just to take your side for a second, Robert, please. If you really think about it, you know, and the way that Nick Rosenkrantz thinks about it, this is really troubling. This decision seems to say that the theoretically, the federal government's power is potentially.

[Joseph J. Ellis]

Infinite.

[Duncan Hollis]

Because, like, say, John Kerry, who's our Secretary of State right now, he goes and makes treaties, say he's talking to Zimbabwe, and we agree that we want to have a treaty about educational standards for children. So we come home and we write a law that says all children must go to public schools. But then that would outlaw homeschooling for children, which is a clear local state matter. But now suddenly the federal government has a power to do that.

[Joseph J. Ellis]

Just seems odd, the idea that the President, the Senate, and Zimbabwe can increase Congress's legislative powers.

[Duncan Hollis]

Here's how John Bellinger responds.

[Latif Nasser]

Is it a theoretical possibility that the federal government might try to go and do that? I suppose it's theoretically possible, but there's no evidence that that happened here. There's no evidence that that has happened in the hundred years since Missouri versus Holland.

[Duncan Hollis]

He would say, look, consider the practical.

[Latif Nasser]

Impact that a decision might have that would cut back on the President's treaty power. Other countries are already highly suspicious of the United States ability to deliver on its treaty commitments anyway.

[Duncan Hollis]

John would say, why would any other country want to make a treaty with us if Kansas could back out at any time?

[Kelsey Padgett]

And like, how do you deal with a question like global warming if everybody is allowed to be left to their own devices?

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, that's a tough one.

[Duncan Hollis]

I mean, the reality is that's Duck and Hollis again.

[Nick Rosenkrans]

We live in a globalized world, whether it's, you know, dealing with things like climate change, terrorism, shipwrecks, cybercrime. Increasingly, these are things we can no longer regulate just within a particular local community or a local society.

[Kelsey Padgett]

And like, on some level, if we now find ourselves in this world where, like, I can get on the Internet and spend hours and hours playing World of Warcraft with people in Yugoslavia, and yet I've never really talked to my neighbor that's just down the street, like, why wouldn't we all have the same laws?

[Joseph J. Ellis]

But, you know, I think the flip side of your question is, fine, the world is very interconnected, but are there still some things that are local? Are there some things left where we could say the federal government doesn't need to be able to reach them?

[Duncan Hollis]

And more than that, Nick says that having a bunch of different communities that are governed by different rules, all under the same nation actually has a bunch.

[Joseph J. Ellis]

Of benefits, competition, the idea of laboratories, of democracy, that the 50 states will all try different things as to regulating guns, near schools, as to regulating whatever it is, and maybe some state will hit on something brilliant, and if they do, then it will spread and be replicated. And, you know, that theory has been borne out in a lot of different areas. When the feds decide that they're going to come up with a one size fits all national solution, that's the end of the experiment.

[Robert Krulwich]

So, by the way, what happened to Carolyn Bond?

[Duncan Hollis]

Well, she went to jail.

[Robert Krulwich]

She's in jail. She's still in jail?

[Duncan Hollis]

No, she's out now.

[Robert Krulwich]

So she could go to court and find out whether this thing was.

[Duncan Hollis]

Yeah, that's cool. She could show up.

[Kelsey Padgett]

What about the Poison E?

[Duncan Hollis]

What happened to her Poison E? She changed her name. She moved away. She's unsearchable now.

[Kelsey Padgett]

Good. I hope she moved to Zimbabwe.

[Robert Krulwich]

Is she still living with the guy that gave her the baby or.

[Duncan Hollis]

No, no, no, no. You see, you see, Carol, even though she went to jail for six years. She stayed with her husband.

[Kelsey Padgett]

No way.

[Robert Krulwich]

Really?

[Duncan Hollis]

Yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

She stayed with the man who had a baby with the other lady.

[Duncan Hollis]

Yeah, that she tried to poison that lady about. She stayed with that guy.

[Robert Krulwich]

See, that's the thing. Law is interesting, but love, that's complicated. Love is greater than treaties.

[Kelsey Padgett]

Thank you, Kelsey. Thank you, Kelsey Padgett, Robert Krulwich, Jada Boomeran.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

Latif. Here again. So, a couple months after we released this episode, the Supreme Court did indeed make a decision in Carol Anne Bond's case. In a unanimous vote, the court decided that Carol did not violate the Chemical Weapons Convention Treaty. But you might remember that was not the question that court watchers were hoping the court would answer. The question they were hoping to get an answer on was, can the federal government use a treaty to make laws about crimes that would normally be within a state's jurisdiction, like poisoning? This decision did nothing to answer that question. So lucky for us, we can keep arguing about it for another hundred years. That's it for this episode. Catch you next week. And in the meantime, please don't poison your friends.

[Duncan Hollis]

Hi, I'm Belen and I'm from San Diego, California. And here are the staff credits.

[Robert Krulwich]

Radiolab was created by Jad Abumrad and is edited by Lauren Wheeler.

[Duncan Hollis]

Lulu Miller and Letches Nasser are our co hosts. Dylan Keith is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Bressler, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Rebecca Lacks, Maria Paz Gutierrez, Sindu Nyanasambundan, Matt Kielty, Annie Kewin, Alex Neeson, Sara.

[Robert Krulwich]

Kari, Sarah Sandbach, Anissa Vitsa, Arian Wack.

[Duncan Hollis]

Pat Walters, Molly Webster, Jessica Young, with.

[Robert Krulwich]

Help from Rebecca Rand.

[Duncan Hollis]

Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, Anna Pujol, Mavini and Natalie Middleton. Hi, I'm Adina. I'm calling from Greensburg.

[Latif Nasser]

Leadership support for Radiolabs science programming is.

[Duncan Hollis]

Provided by the Simons foundation and the John Templeton Foundation.

[Lulu Miller]

Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by.

[Duncan Hollis]

The Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

[Sponsor Announcer]

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