Signal Hill: Caterpillar Roadshow

Summary

Radiolab Episode Summary: "Signal Hill: Caterpillar Roadshow"

Release Date: April 11, 2025
Hosts: Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser
Produced by WNYC Studios

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Introduction

"Caterpillar Roadshow," a segment from Radiolab's audio magazine Signal Hill, delves into an extraordinary correspondence between Annie Rosenthal, an accomplished entomologist, and Joe Nagai, an exceptionally gifted second-grader from Japan. This story intertwines themes of scientific curiosity, cross-cultural friendship, and the profound impact of mentorship.

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The Beginning of a Unique Correspondence

In April 2022, Annie Rosenthal received an unexpected letter from Joe Nagai, an 8-year-old student from Kobe, Japan. Unlike the typical fan mail her mother, Martha Weiss—an esteemed entomologist—received, Joe's letter was both earnest and scientifically inquisitive.

Joe Nagai [02:58]: "Hello. Nice to meet you. My name is Joe Nagai. I'm from Japan. I live in Kobe, Japan. I'm in the second grade at Ibuki Elementary School. When I found your research on the Internet, I was so delighted."

Joe's fascination stemmed from Martha Weiss's research on moths, particularly the groundbreaking discovery that "an adult moth could remember something it learned as a caterpillar"—a phenomenon where memories persist through metamorphosis.

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Replicating Groundbreaking Experiments

Inspired by Martha's work, Joe embarked on his own experiments to determine if his swallowtail butterflies retained memories from their caterpillar stage. Despite his young age, Joe meticulously adapted the complex methodologies used in professional research to suit his home laboratory setup.

Joe Nagai [04:10]: "I think it's amazing that a caterpillar can have an experience, go into its chrysalis five weeks pass, emerge as a seemingly different organism, and that it still can recall experiences that happened to it when it was a caterpillar."

Joe's dedication led him to develop a simpler approach for his experiments, focusing on color association rather than the more intricate smell-and-shock methods used by Martha and her graduate student, Doug Blackiston.

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Building a Scientific Friendship

Over the summer, Annie and her family engaged in a burgeoning pen-pal relationship with Joe. Their exchanges were rich with scientific dialogue, mutual respect, and a shared passion for entomology. Joe's persistence and genuine curiosity not only impressed Annie but also inspired her and her family.

Joe Nagai [06:59]: "Everybody becomes more interested in each other than the bugs, which is good because it helps ourselves species persist."

Recognizing Joe's potential, Annie's family, including her father Josh, became enthusiastic supporters of Joe's scientific endeavors, discussing his findings and anticipating his future contributions to the field.

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The Invitation to Japan

In the spring of 2023, Joe took his research a step further by exploring epigenetics—the study of how experiences can influence gene expression across generations. His latest experiment aimed to determine if memories could be inherited by the next generation of butterflies.

Joe Nagai [12:05]: "It had never occurred to me to even ask that question."

This ambitious project caught the attention of the international entomological community, leading Joe to present his findings at prestigious universities in Japan. His remarkable achievements culminated in an invitation to the International Congress of Entomology (ICE) 2024 in Kyoto.

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Meeting Joe in Japan

Annie and her family accepted Joe's invitation, embarking on a journey to Japan that would solidify their cross-cultural friendship. Upon arrival, they were greeted by Joe's mother, Sari Nagai, and his older brother, Hayato. The meeting was a blend of scientific collaboration and personal connection, set against the vibrant backdrop of Tokyo's insect-enthusiast culture.

Sari Nagai [29:08]: "Yeah. I'm Joe."

Throughout their visit, Annie observed Joe's dedication firsthand—from his hands-on experiments to his interactions with fellow young scientists. The highlight was Joe's presentation to the Crown Prince of Japan, where his eloquence and scientific acumen shone brightly.

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Validating Scientific Findings

Despite Joe's impressive results, Annie's mother insisted on rigorous scientific validation. Together, they meticulously reviewed Joe's data to ensure the integrity and reliability of his findings.

Joe Nagai [45:15]: "I care about Joe."

This collaboration underscored the importance of mentorship and the nurturing of young scientific minds. By scrutinizing Joe's work, they aimed to contribute meaningful insights to the field of entomology, particularly in understanding memory inheritance in butterflies.

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Reflections and Impact

The story of Joe Nagai and Annie Rosenthal's collaboration highlights the power of curiosity and cross-generational mentorship in scientific discovery. Joe's unwavering dedication as a child prodigy and Annie's supportive guidance exemplify how passion and support can lead to groundbreaking research, even across continents and cultural barriers.

Annie Rosenthal [42:23]: "Compassionate. And treat them as if they feel pain and try to minimize any pain or suffering while getting our science done."

This episode not only celebrates scientific achievement but also emphasizes the human connections that drive innovation and discovery. Joe's journey from a young enthusiast to a respected researcher serves as an inspiration for aspiring scientists worldwide.

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Conclusion

"Caterpillar Roadshow" is a testament to the extraordinary possibilities that emerge when young minds meet experienced mentors. Through meticulous correspondence and shared scientific pursuits, Annie Rosenthal and Joe Nagai bridged geographic and generational divides, fostering a partnership that promises to leave a lasting mark on the world of entomology.

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Notable Quotes:

• Annie Rosenthal [03:44]: "What's your feeling like coming out of this?"
• Joe Nagai [05:37]: "But I want to try to find if a swallowtail butterfly could remember what it learned as a caterpillar."
• Joe Nagai [45:15]: "I hope so. But the other reason that it matters is because I care about Joe."

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This summary captures the essence of the "Caterpillar Roadshow" episode, focusing on the compelling narrative of scientific exploration and the unique bond formed between Annie Rosenthal and Joe Nagai.

Transcript

[Progressive Insurance Ad]

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[WNYC Studios]

Listener supported WNYC Studios.

[Unknown Listener]

Wait, you're listening.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Okay. All right. Okay. All right. You're listening to Radiolab Radio Lab from wny.

[WNYC Studios]

See?

[Annie Rosenthal]

Yep.

[Molly Webster]

Hey, I'm Molly Webster. This is Radiolab. So one of my first pieces at the show, like, actually kind of my very first Molly piece, was this episode called Goo and you'd. It was about what happens inside a chrysalis when a caterpillar crawls in and a butterfly or moth crawls out. Like, what happens in that middle space? And it's one of my favorite pieces because it feels like, I don't know, it's got, like, science and poetry and philosophy, and it's also just this meditation on what it means to change. And though it was my first piece, which happened over 10 years ago, it is still actually the piece that I get the most feedback about. Like, I still get emails about it. People want me to do workshops on it. It inspired some famous persons, like Wedding. And then a month ago, it popped up again when one of my editors was like, yo, Molly, this fabulous young radio reporter basically made a Goo and you sequel. I listened to it. It's great. It's a story that revisits the scientist, drags her whole family into this kind of international tale. And then it becomes a meditation, not just about change in an individual, but across generations. And so what we wanna do for you is play an excerpt of this piece. It's called Caterpillar Roadshow. It's from this audio magazine called Signal Hill. And the reporter is Annie Rosenthal. So here's Annie.

[Annie Rosenthal]

In the spring of 2022, my mom went into the mailroom at the university where she works in D.C. in her box, there was a big, flat envelope addressed to her. Martha Weiss. She didn't recognize the sender. Joe Ngai. J, O, no E. Inside there was a handwritten letter, four pages long.

[Joe Nagai]

So shall I read you part of the letter?

[Annie Rosenthal]

Please.

[Joe Nagai]

To Martha Weiss. Hello. Nice to meet you. My name is Joe Nagai. I'm from Japan. I live in Kobe, Japan. I'm in the second grade at Ibuki Elementary School. When I found your research on the Internet, I was so delighted.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Two exclamation points.

[Joe Nagai]

Two bold exclamation points.

[Annie Rosenthal]

My mom is an entomologist. She studies insects and she gets letters from strangers pretty often. They're mostly about this one study she worked on. She and her student were studying moths and they figured out that an adult moth could remember something it learned as a caterpillar. Even after metamorphosis, the memory carried through. It made kind of a splash.

[Molly Webster]

What's your feeling like coming out of this?

[Joe Nagai]

My feeling is, wow.

[Annie Rosenthal]

This is my mom on Radiolab.

[Joe Nagai]

I think it's amazing that a caterpillar can have an experience, go into its chrysalis five weeks pass, emerge as a seemingly different organism, and that it still can recall experiences that happened to it when it was a caterpillar.

[Progressive Insurance Ad]

Freaking cool.

[Annie Rosenthal]

I gotta say, there were a lot of interviews like that and a lot of emails. But the letter my mom picked up that day at work was different from any of the fan mail she'd gotten before. For starters, the author was a kid in second grade writing from the other side of the world. But more importantly, he was writing to tell her that he was an insect scientist himself. In the letter, Joe described his discoveries.

[Joe Nagai]

I've studied swallowtail butterflies for three years.

[Annie Rosenthal]

In kindergarten, he'd investigated how long a swallowtail butterfly could stay alive if it got stuck in the chrysalis. In first grade, he'd found caterpillars that molt more often than usual. But now Joe said he was hoping to try something a lot more complicated.

[Joe Nagai]

I've always thought that my butterflies could remember me even after their metamorphosis because they always flutter around me whenever I try to let them go into nature. But sadly, some say that's impossible and ridiculous. I have some questions to you. Have you ever experimented in swallowtail butterflies? I want to try to find if a swallowtail butterfly could remember what it learned as a caterpillar.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Joe, an 8 year old, wanted to replicate my mom's groundbreaking experiment because he wanted to know if his butterflies could remember him.

[Joe Nagai]

I came home and said to dad, look what I got in the mail. You know, this was the most fun letter I ever got. Yeah, I was there when the package came.

[Annie Rosenthal]

That's my dad, Josh.

[Joe Nagai]

Full size sheets of paper with his handwritten letters, photos of himself, a very cute kid with glasses, and his butterflies. He's looking through a magnifying glass and then there are two pages of data figures. I mean, she was laughing and reading with her mouth wide open. I thought it was wonderful.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Jo had no idea what a perfect correspondent he'd found, because the only audience my mom respects more than her entomological peers is small children.

[Joe Nagai]

They are curious about stuff and they haven't figured out that it's boring to look at plants or bugs.

[Annie Rosenthal]

She's diagnosed elementary school as the last chance to intervene before the veil of indifference descends.

[Joe Nagai]

7Th grade, 8th grade. Is it gonna be on the test? Do we have to know that? Second grade, third grade. Bingo.

[Annie Rosenthal]

And something horrible must happen in fifth and sixth grade puberty.

[Joe Nagai]

Everybody becomes more interested in each other than the bugs, which is good because it helps ourselves species persist.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Outside her academic work, my mom has spent decades weaseling her way into children's classrooms to make the case for the humble arthropod. She brought poop shooting caterpillars to my kindergarten. She organized cricket races at my sister's 10th birthday party. Every year, she and her colleagues crawl around the woods collecting caterpillars to show off at schools around the city. They call it the Caterpillar Roadshow. So with Joe Nagai, my mom wasted zero time in writing him back.

[Joe Nagai]

Dear Joe Nagai, I was so excited to get your packet in the mail. It was such a fun and interesting letter. I loved reading about your experiments and your discoveries and am so happy to have a new friend in Japan who loves caterpillars and butterflies as much as I do.

[Annie Rosenthal]

To be clear, she didn't actually think Jo could recreate her experiment. The way she and her grad student Doug Blackiston had done their study was by training caterpillars to hate a specific smell and then testing whether once those caterpillars became moths, they still hated the smell. They did the training with this elaborate lab setup where they'd release the chemical smell, then give the caterpillar an electric shock so it would associate the smell with pain. Not totally a kid level project. So in that first letter, my mom suggested Joe try something simpler, like teaching butterflies to learn colors.

[Joe Nagai]

I could help you test this with your swallowtails, which might be a great research project for third grade.

[Annie Rosenthal]

So here you're giving him the ol. Why don't you try colors before memory through metamorphosis.

[Joe Nagai]

Exactly. I could write so much more, but want to send this off now so you will know how happy I am to have heard from you. Your friend, Martha Weiss. And then I included some pictures. A zebra swallowtail butterfly and an eastern tiger swallowtail, just to show that we both are swallowtail aficionados.

[Annie Rosenthal]

A few weeks later, she got a response.

[Joe Nagai]

Dear Professor Martha Weiss, thank you very much for your reply. I was so happy and surprised to have a reply from you. I couldn't believe it first. Thank you very much.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Jo politely expressed interest in her color learning experiment and thanked her for the butterfly photos.

[Joe Nagai]

Internet. They're butterfly blue is so beautiful and like deep ocean.

[Annie Rosenthal]

But he stuck to his guns on the memory stuff.

[Joe Nagai]

I really want to prove it's possible that my butterflies can remember what they learned as a caterpillar. I don't want to give up now. I really need your help.

[Annie Rosenthal]

And Joe wasn't waiting for her approval. He told her he had already started adapting her protocols for his own at home lab.

[Joe Nagai]

But I don't have any devices in my house. I can't make electronic shocks.

[Annie Rosenthal]

This wasn't what my mom had expected. The letter was so serious. Jo was so serious. So that summer, they became regular pen pals. In his emails, Joe kept her up to date on his work. And he was confident, like he wasn't afraid to question my mom's research methods. Why? For example, she'd chosen the chemical she'd used to train the caterpillars.

[Joe Nagai]

I have no idea why you picked ethyl acetate for the experiment of Manduka Sexta. I felt a little bit defensive about my use of ethyl acetate.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Still, in every email, Jo thanked my mom for her time and attention.

[Joe Nagai]

I know you're so busy, but I'm so happy when you write me back in the fall.

[Annie Rosenthal]

He wrote to say his study was done. It was 33 pages in Japanese, but he'd helpfully translated the basics. He said he'd done essentially the same study as my mom. Trained caterpillars to hate a smell, tested whether they'd avoid it as butterflies. He'd used a little muscle therapy device to give the shocks and lavender oil instead of that toxic chemical for the smell. So the caterpillars learned to hate the lavender. And according to Joe, when those caterpillars became butterflies, 80% of them still avoided the smell. If what Joe said was true, not only had he replicated my mom and Doug's groundbreaking experiment at home over summer vacation, but he found their same results in a whole new species. They'd studied moths. But he was the first person in the world to show that memories could persist through metamorphosis in butterflies. And what did you think when you got that email?

[Joe Nagai]

I was flabbergasted and delighted. And in this letter, I thought, holy cow. He's a real scientist and he's figuring out new stuff.

[Annie Rosenthal]

As the months went on, my whole family became obsessed with Joe. We talked about him all the time.

[Joe Nagai]

You just don't expect to see or hear that level of sophistication out of anybody without a PhD.

[Annie Rosenthal]

My dad, again, definitely not someone in elementary school. We go to see friends or family or something.

[Joe Nagai]

We're like, you gotta know.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Here's the latest updates on Joan Guy, my sister Isabel.

[Joe Nagai]

What's the new T? What's he up to these days? What has he discovered? What kind of, you know, like, advances has he made?

[Unknown Listener]

Every time I talk to your parents, I get the parents update and I get the Joe Nagai update.

[Annie Rosenthal]

My boyfriend, Harrison.

[Unknown Listener]

And there's always something exciting.

[Annie Rosenthal]

For example, in September 2022, Joe presented his research to scientists at Hsinchu University, then at Tsukuba University and Saga University. He also graduated from second grade. And then in the spring of 2023, Joe wrote to my mom rather casually that he had a whole new research question. He wrote, by the way, I'd like to study if memories can be inherited to the next generation. This summer, Joe wanted to study if caterpillar children could remember things that had happened to their parents. I know that most people generally think memories can't be inherited from ancestors, Joe wrote, But he'd found a recent study that suggested it might be possible in nematodes. These tiny, freaky worms. If they could do it, he thought, why not swallowtails?

[Joe Nagai]

It had never occurred to me to even ask that question.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Joe's first study was advanced, but this was a whole other realm. Epigenetics. The ways environment and experience can change how our genes are expressed, even across generations. It's a field of biology my mom calls the new frontier, and it's not exactly her area of expertise.

[Joe Nagai]

I don't live on the frontier. I live in the heartland. And so when he said, I read the nematode paper, I had to go scramble and find the nematode paper. I was too embarrassed to ask Joe which nematode paper, because I didn't want him to be too much ahead of me. On the. On the up to the minute research.

[Annie Rosenthal]

The inheritance of memory has only been studied in a few species. Those worms, some mice. My mom wrote back to Joe, this is a controversial topic, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. We can learn more by doing more studies. Joe forged ahead. He did his experiment again, but tested a second generation, too, to see if they avoided the same smell he trained their parents to hate. And a few months later, he wrote to my mom that the results were clear. His butterflies had passed their memories on to their children. When I was growing up, bugs were a central feature of our household. They were just always around. My mom raised silkworms in a box in the dining room, and she kept cicada exoskeletons in a jar in the kitchen, which my teenage friends found horrifying. She was waging the pro bug campaign on the home front, and for a while it worked.

[Joe Nagai]

You don't squish bugs, and you don't scream when you find a spider in the bathtub. I consider that a victory.

[Annie Rosenthal]

But I guess at some point that dreaded veil of indifference fell over me, too. Or maybe it was just puberty. By the time I was in high school, I was less interested in bugs and more interested in people. These days, my extracurricular reading is about stuff like historical memory, how experience moves down through time. That's what I'm always trying to report on, although my editors tend to steer me towards the news. But now my mom's tiny genius pen pal was saying he had proof that in this one species, what happens in a parent's early life can show up in their kid. The inheritance of traumatic memory. The caterpillar body keeps the score. My mom is always warning me against anthropomorphism, but in a way it seemed like Joe was asking the same question I often how we get to be who we are.

[Joe Nagai]

How to say butterfly in Japanese. Cho. Oh, I know that. I knew that because Madame Butterfly.

[Annie Rosenthal]

A while back, my mom got this note from Joe.

[Joe Nagai]

He said, dear Professor Martha Weiss, hello, how are you? Blah, blah, blah. Is it getting colder in your town, too? How do your caterpillars and butterflies spend during cold winter? Well, do you know the International Congress of Entomology, ICE 2024? The website is as follows with the URL. It will be held in Kyoto, Japan, in 2024. Are you going to come and attend it? If you come there, I'd like to see you and can show you around Kyoto, Osaka, and Kobe. My town.

[Annie Rosenthal]

My mom did, in fact, know the International Congress of Entomology. It's one of the biggest conferences in the field. It was happening in August. She hadn't been planning on going this year, but a personal invite from Joe changed the equation. And once she decided to go, there was no question. Actually, all of us would come to Japan. My entire family, plus my boyfriend, bought plane tickets. In the months leading up to the trip, my mom helped Joe with his application to present a poster at the conference. She thought he had basically a dissertation's worth of research. She, on the other hand, was bringing a plan for an experiment she hadn't actually Started yet? Yeah, maybe. Maybe he can lend you one paper.

[Joe Nagai]

Yeah, just.

[WNYC Studios]

Just.

[Joe Nagai]

Come on.

[Annie Rosenthal]

I loved the story of Joe, this child prodigy, showing up. My mom, esteemed entomologist. And I was telling everyone I knew about his big finding. But now we were about to actually meet him, and part of me had started to worry. Over two full years of correspondence, my mom and Joe had never actually spoken. In fact, she wasn't even writing him directly. You're emailing his mom's email?

[Joe Nagai]

Because he doesn't have his own email. So his mother is the invisible portal through whom we communicate. So his mother is named Sari. And so I get an email from Sari, and it says, hi, this is Joe. And then I write to Sari and say, hi, Joe. Although two times ago, I wrote and said, hi, Sari. This is Martha Weiss. Joe invited us to come visit him in Kobe. And so I just wanted to check in with you. And have I heard from Sari? No. But I did hear from Joe what hotel he and his mother, Sari, will be staying in in Kyoto. So I made reservations at that hotel.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Too, which I'm interested in. This dynamic. Like, do you feel like you need to talk to his mom? Cause you're sort of emailing a child all the time.

[Joe Nagai]

Well, I feel the science is between me and Joe. But when he says, come visit me at my home in Kobe, that then I need to check with his mom.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Have you ever thought about zooming him?

[Joe Nagai]

I guess I did initially, but I don't know. There's something sort of nice about writing.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Sort of Jane Austen of you guys.

[Joe Nagai]

Yeah, it's a little more Jane Austen. Exactly. I think he feels that way, too.

[Annie Rosenthal]

I mean, do you like the mystery? Do you like that we dislike. I mean, Joe Nagai is like a national hero in our house.

[Joe Nagai]

Yes, I do like the mystery. I think that's part of it. And to be honest, I'm a tiny bit nervous about meeting him in person.

[Annie Rosenthal]

What are you nervous about?

[Joe Nagai]

I don't know. I mean, I guess our correspondence is. It's all about science and butterflies and there's nothing else in it. Like, what if he's, like, a mean kid who has temper tantrums and, you know, kicks and screams and bites his baby sister or, you know, I can't.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Imagine that Joe is a biter.

[Sari Nagai]

But.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Are you at all worried that he's a catfish?

[Joe Nagai]

Well, let me just say that I'm only recently learned the term catfish. And some people have said to me, is this kid for real? Do you think that this that this is an elaborate ploy.

[Annie Rosenthal]

You're sort of a trusting correspondent.

[Joe Nagai]

I'm a trusting correspondent.

[Molly Webster]

Hey, this is Molly again. We are going to take a quick break, but when we get back we will find out kid or catfish? When Martha and her entire family go to Japan. That's coming up. After breaking.

[WNYC Studios]

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[Molly Webster]

Hey, this is Radiolab. I'm Molly Webster and today we are playing a super special story for you called Caterpillar Roadshow. It is about a bug scientist and a young boy in Japan who strike up a long distance email correspondence because they're both really excited about the scientific work of caterpillars. Butterflies, moths. Up until this point though, they have never met in person. But that is about to change. Let's listen in.

[Joe Nagai]

Welcome to Tokyo. The local time is 2:55 in the afternoon on August. Please stay comfortably seated until the sea vault sign has been turned off.

[Annie Rosenthal]

When we got to Japan, Joe still had a few days of school before the conference. So we had to find ways to distract ourselves, which wasn't hard. We were surrounded by amazing and surprising things, like the public toilets that automatically make the sound of a waterfall. And birds chirping to cover up any embarrassing pee noise. And the beautiful glowing vending machines on every other block. At any time of day or night, you can pop in a couple hundred yen and get a whiskey highball or a sippy cup of apple juice, or a perfect sports drink called Pocari Sweat. But the most amazing and surprising thing, bugs were everywhere. In the trees outside, temples, restaurants, but also on T shirts, book covers, street signs. On the subway, we saw a poster for an insect show at the Tokyo Museum of Nature and Science. Inside the hall was packed with hundreds of people, more excited than I've ever seen anybody in a museum, honestly. And they weren't just stopping at the iridescent butterfly wings. They were reading about the way a spider disguises itself to mimic an ant structural color. Parasitic wasps.

[Unknown Listener]

Yeah, you see that a lot in Japan. You go to just a public park in the center of Tokyo and you'll see a parent with a butterfly net with their child carrying a little insect cage.

[Annie Rosenthal]

This is Akito Kawahara. He's a big deal in bug science. The director of a center for butterfly and moth biodiversity in Florida, and he grew up in Tokyo. I called him to ask basically, is this a thing or was I just on high alert for bug stuff like the bug shaped toys we saw all over the city?

[Unknown Listener]

So, gotcha, Gotcha. So what it is is essentially it's a gumball machine where you put some money, a dollar or two into a.

[Joe Nagai]

Ma one, two Three.

[Unknown Listener]

And a ball comes out.

[Joe Nagai]

Ready?

[Annie Rosenthal]

Yep.

[Unknown Listener]

And inside the ball, there's a toy big boy and there's a whole bunch of insect ones. And some of these insect ones are extremely realistic.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Yeah, look how much you can make it move around.

[Joe Nagai]

That's a deal for an articulating beetle.

[Annie Rosenthal]

And then, look, we could. We should get another one so they can fight. Japanese pop culture isn't just full of bugs. It's full of youth insect enthusiasts. Aikido told me about a popular video game where you play a kid helping a scientist collect and identify escaped bugs. And the guy who created Pokemon, he started out wanting to be an entomologist. The game came straight out of the years he spent scouring the wilderness for bugs. People here have been insect fans for a long time. More than a thousand years ago, Japanese nobles kept crickets in cages to listen to their chirps. In the late 1800s, kids magazines aggressively advertised bug collecting to patriotic and masculine boys. By the 1930s, insect hobbyist societies had hundreds of members who'd go on collecting trips, tromping around the forest and posing with their butterfly nets like big game hunters. Beetles in particular became kind of a status symbol, an exotic pet.

[Unknown Listener]

It got to the point where, you know, people were trying to grow the biggest beetles and then they would sell them. And in one case, one of the beetles sold for an incredible $90,000.

[Annie Rosenthal]

One of Aikido's closest friends actually raises.

[Unknown Listener]

Beetles every time I go back to Japan. He's driving a different colored Ferrari. And oftentimes I joke that I might have made the wrong decision in my career to become a scientist, and maybe I should have just reared beetles and had a life that was different from what I'm doing now.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Papilio zeuthis. Is that right?

[Joe Nagai]

That's butterfly.

[Annie Rosenthal]

At the museum, I thought about Joe from the distance of my mom's kitchen in D.C. his passion had seemed totally unique and mysterious. Here, it suddenly seemed a lot less random. We found an exhibit about swallowtails, and my mom texted Sari, Joe's mom, a picture. Sari sent back an emoji of a rabbit with exploding heart eyes. They'd finally made direct adult to adult contact. She and Joe and his brother were coming to meet us. In two days. We're on the train, finally on our way to meet Joe.

[Joe Nagai]

I can't go through with it. I'm getting off at the next station and going back in the other direction.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Too late. We pull into the station, get off the train, and there they are, just on the other side of the Turnstile. I'm trying to be present for the meeting and also fumbling to get my recorder rolling.

[Sari Nagai]

Hello.

[Annie Rosenthal]

How are you? Sari, in her late 30s, has a ponytail, a white blouse, a parasol for the sun. And then There are the two boys. Hayato or Harry, age 13, made 8th grade growth spurt, in a huge T shirt and baseball cap. And next to him, the man himself.

[Sari Nagai]

Yeah. I'm Joe.

[Joe Nagai]

I'm Josh.

[Annie Rosenthal]

He's a pretty small guy with very discreet bangs like the tines of a feathery fork, big Harry Potter glasses, and a round little face that makes him look younger than 10. He's wearing a traditional jinbei, a matching wraparound shirt and shorts, and carrying a backpack about half his height.

[Joe Nagai]

And you have your butterfly net?

[Annie Rosenthal]

Butterfly net.

[Sari Nagai]

I have it.

[Annie Rosenthal]

He and my mom are both smiling. Big, but a little awkward with each other. Like meeting somebody for a first date after you've bared your soul to them over text. For the next few hours, Joe takes the reins as we walk around the city. He makes the most of opportunities for viewing wildlife. For example, a pigeon we pass.

[Sari Nagai]

We can't touch it, but it is very cute.

[Annie Rosenthal]

We visit Himeji Castle, Joe's favorite castle. And he points out big gulping fish swimming in the moat.

[Sari Nagai]

It is beautiful.

[Joe Nagai]

Look at there. Blue. Flashing blue.

[Sari Nagai]

Yeah. Beautiful. Wonderful.

[Annie Rosenthal]

And he helps us work on our manners.

[Sari Nagai]

If you eat food, first you say Itadakimasu.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Itadakimasu.

[Joe Nagai]

Itadakimasu. What does that mean?

[Sari Nagai]

We eat birds and fish and a lot of creatures. So we have to thank.

[Joe Nagai]

To say thank you.

[Annie Rosenthal]

To say thank you to the creatures.

[Sari Nagai]

Creatures, yeah.

[Annie Rosenthal]

And Joe seems to be amazed by basically every living thing we see around us. He's sweet and solicitous and also a totally normal kid. Impatient in the heat, hungry for junk food, constantly proposing a game.

[Joe Nagai]

What do you. What do you do?

[Annie Rosenthal]

Like, who has the stronger pine needle? So Joe's is stronger.

[Joe Nagai]

Are you stronger than me?

[Sari Nagai]

Yeah.

[Annie Rosenthal]

At lunch, Seri tells us that Joe has been invited to present his research to the Crown Prince of Japan in a private meeting. At the beginning of the conference, he seems unfazed. He says he's just a little nervous, but he's starstruck by my mom. When we finish eating, she presents Joe with a hand lens, a little magnifying glass attached to a ribbon just like the one she wears around her neck. He makes very direct eye contact and says, I love this so much, I want it. Outside the restaurant, a woman is performing a Japanese version of Part of youf world from the Little Mermaid. And somehow it feels exactly right. It's a million degrees out and we're soaked in sweat. All awkwardness gone. Everyone is giddy. It feels like a fairy tale. Castles and princes, a sage advisor, a young apprentice. We take a bus to the edge of the city and ride a glass gondola high up into the mountains. At the top, we climb out into a cool, sweet smelling forest and a symphony of bugs. What's that?

[Sari Nagai]

It is a beetle. Marsha is a beetle.

[Joe Nagai]

Is that a beetle?

[Sari Nagai]

Beetle, yeah. Do you need a case? I have a case.

[Joe Nagai]

Yes, please. Yes, please. I made a mistake to not bring my cases with me.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Yeah, Joe came prepared.

[Sari Nagai]

I will give you.

[Joe Nagai]

Thank you very much.

[Annie Rosenthal]

At the top of the mountain, Joe sees something. He leaps forward, his net zigzagging back and forth like a banner. And then.

[Sari Nagai]

I get it.

[Joe Nagai]

You got it?

[Sari Nagai]

No, I take it.

[Joe Nagai]

Hard work. Oh, that's the one you showed me.

[Sari Nagai]

Yeah.

[Joe Nagai]

That is beautiful. Joe showed me a picture of this and he said we might find these.

[Annie Rosenthal]

It's an East Asian tiger beetle. Maybe the most flamboyant bug I've ever seen. With a bright green head, long and tiny blue and rust colored splotches all over its back.

[Joe Nagai]

Oh my goodness. Look at that. Look at that color.

[Sari Nagai]

Those shining and metal color.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Sari convinces Jo to let it go.

[Sari Nagai]

I will release it.

[Joe Nagai]

Can I hold it for one second? The wings are. Goodbye.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Good luck.

[Sari Nagai]

He's very powerful.

[Joe Nagai]

Yeah, he's a strong flier.

[Annie Rosenthal]

The moon is rising over the city. We catch the last gondola down in the pink light. After dinner, my family boards the train back to our hotel. Hayato and Joe wave from the platform for a full minute. And once our train starts moving, Joe runs after it.

[Joe Nagai]

Outside the window of the train, we just saw him speeding along and keeping up with us until our bullet train pulled away and we left him behind. And I just felt like it was the best day ever.

[Annie Rosenthal]

When I was six, a brood of periodical cicadas emerged in D.C. billions of bugs that spend their whole lives underground and tunnel up to the surface. Just once after 17 years, for a few chaotic weeks, the city is completely overtaken by their wine, as you might imagine. While most people saw the cicadas as a menace, my mom was basically hysterical with excitement. Late at night, the bugs would climb up trees around the neighborhood to molt. And one night she let me and Isabel stay up until midnight to watch. We walked down the block with flashlights, stopping at a tree just above my head. These bright white Cicadas with ruby red eyes were stretching backwards out of their old shells. So new to the world, they were still damp. It felt like I'd been let in on a huge secret. Catching them in this private moment in the dark, I was reminded of that night walking into the conference center. Here I was, an interloper again, surrounded by thousands of entomologists. The international denizens of my mom's world. They weren't the most visually intimidating group. Lots of cargo shorts and T shirts with bug puns on them. But this was their turf. They were keepers of bug knowledge not yet released to the larger world. I was unprepared for the scene in the poster hall. Alongside the adults, there was an army of young scientists.

[Sari Nagai]

Hello, we are from Takatsuki Senior High School. And today we would like to talk about turn alternation or pill bags.

[Annie Rosenthal]

These were Joe's peers. At 10 years old, he wasn't even the youngest presenter.

[Sari Nagai]

I'm Takeru Inagaki. I'm in the fourth grade of elementary school. I've been collecting butterbrite since I was six years old.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Takeru was approximately three feet tall.

[Sari Nagai]

Thank you for listening to my presentation.

[Unknown Caller]

My research is about leaf rolling weevils. So do you know leaf rolling weevils?

[Annie Rosenthal]

No, I don't know them.

[Unknown Caller]

Okay, so let me explain.

[Joe Nagai]

Thank you.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Shusei is 14. It's a very impressive presentation.

[Unknown Caller]

Yes, thank you very much.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Are there many students your age who are doing entomological research?

[Unknown Caller]

Yes, many kids students are doing some kind of research about this insects. The cheese one is really amazing.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Yeah. He was looking over at Joe, whose poster was right next door. Did he explain it to you already?

[Unknown Caller]

Actually, he's my friend. Our house is really close that we can meet each other often.

[Annie Rosenthal]

And do you guys discuss your research together?

[Unknown Caller]

Yes, yes. He's four years old, younger than now. But the things that he is doing is more level high.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Joe was in full networking mode, suit and tie, handing out his business card.

[Sari Nagai]

I'm Joe Naray. Nice to meet you.

[Joe Nagai]

Nice to meet you. So can we take a picture with.

[Unknown Caller]

You and the poster?

[Joe Nagai]

You have a bright future in front.

[Progressive Insurance Ad]

Of you, no doubt about that.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Hanging around Joe's poster, I met Masato Ono, the conference chair, president of organizing. Oh, wow.

[Joe Nagai]

Okay.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Very nice to meet you. And a kid, Kito Kawahara, the big name butterfly expert from earlier.

[Unknown Listener]

He's just incredible. Like, you know, everything that he's done is just like incredible. Like I want him in my lab. I'm secretly like, oh, maybe like he wants to do some research in America.

[Annie Rosenthal]

We stood there watching Joe together.

[Sari Nagai]

In the parent generation, I give the electric shock and loving odor. I waited until they became butterflies and they avoid 11 odor, so I know they can remember what they nurse caterpillar. In the child generation, they also avoided love and older so the memories can persist to the next generation.

[Annie Rosenthal]

All day, Joe and his poster were swamped. I could barely see him behind his crowd of admirers. That night, back at the Comfort in Kyoto, Joe went straight to the hot tub for a triumphant soak. Conventional scientific wisdom says it's easier to remember a painful experience than a positive one. That's why in their original experiment, my mom and Doug decided to teach their caterpillars to hate a smell, shocking them every time they smelled it.

[Joe Nagai]

And it was clear from the caterpillar's behavior that they were receiving the shock. And I'll just leave it at that.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Can you just say what that means? When my mom or her student pushed the button, the caterpillar would start to convulse and sometimes vomit. When Joe replicated the experiment, he'd taken a different approach. Instead of high voltage lab equipment, he'd use that little physical therapy device. A pad that emits small amounts of electricity to treat muscle pain. Joe already had one at home to help with pain in his own shoulders.

[Sari Nagai]

I put the pad on my arms, and inside of the pad there is a caterpillar.

[Annie Rosenthal]

So the caterpillar would be sitting literally on Joe's arm, right between the pad and the softest part of his wrist. And so did you also feel the shock when they felt it?

[Sari Nagai]

Yes.

[Annie Rosenthal]

And was it. Was it painful to you or what did it feel like to you?

[Sari Nagai]

The first was very good for me, but if I did it every day, my arm will be red, pink, or red. So I was very pain. I have pain.

[Annie Rosenthal]

The machine has a bunch of different power levels from 1 to 15. Joe had stopped at level 4. And what was your thinking about why to use that level of shock and not more shock?

[Sari Nagai]

Because in the Level 4, they pop out their osmeteria.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Osmeteria. Little orange horns that pop out of the caterpillar's head when it gets scared.

[Sari Nagai]

So I think it was enough for the caterpillar.

[Annie Rosenthal]

So you didn't want to hurt them more than you needed to?

[Sari Nagai]

Yes.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Joe Nagai]

Okay.

[Annie Rosenthal]

In the breakfast room at the hotel, Joe got the machine out of his backpack for a demonstration sans caterpillar. Okay, where do you put it on my.

[Sari Nagai]

Here.

[Annie Rosenthal]

He strapped the little pad onto my forearm and pressed the button.

[Sari Nagai]

Is it Coming.

[Annie Rosenthal]

I don't feel it yet. Is it? Oh, now I feel it a little bit. Number two. Okay, another one. Three. Whoa. I feel. Was a crazy feeling. A huge shudder that made my hand jump.

[Joe Nagai]

You see, Annie's house material.

[Annie Rosenthal]

The science isn't clear on whether bugs feel pain. And as my mom has explained to me, there aren't a lot of rules around how you should treat them as a researcher.

[Joe Nagai]

So if you're going to do something with a vertebrate, you have to put in a whole animal protocol. It has to be taken care of in an approved animal care and use facility. There's committees that monitor everything. Invertebrates nobody cares one iota about.

[Annie Rosenthal]

That means it's up to each individual scientist to set their own standards. Well, so what's. What is your personal standard for your approach?

[Joe Nagai]

Compassionate. And treat them as if they feel pain and try to minimize any pain or suffering while getting our science done.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Joe seemed to have different priorities.

[Joe Nagai]

He could have said, boy, I really want to make sure that they get it and crank it up to nine. But he didn't do that.

[Annie Rosenthal]

You're thinking of the caterpillars almost as friends. Maybe.

[Sari Nagai]

I think it's a friend.

[Annie Rosenthal]

You think it's a friend.

[Sari Nagai]

But I give that an extra so from the caterpillar. I am a vet friend.

[Annie Rosenthal]

I talked to Joe for a long time about this. He told me he doesn't actually want to be an entomologist when he grows up. He wants to be a veterinarian. What kind of vet do you want to be?

[Sari Nagai]

I can fix caterpillars and insects both.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Do you know of. Are there other insect veterinarians now?

[Sari Nagai]

There are no insect vets now.

[Annie Rosenthal]

So you might be the first insect vet.

[Sari Nagai]

Yes.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Way back in that first letter to my mom, Joe had told her he wanted to study insect memory because he thought his butterflies remembered him. Joe had a relationship with the bugs he worked with, and that relationship had shaped his questions, his methodology. So many scientists see anthropomorphizing as a cardinal sin. But for Joe, I realized interspecies empathy was kind of a sleeper strength. All this work had come out of his willingness to wonder what a bug might know or feel. On the last morning of the conference, my mom said there was something we needed to do. All this time, she'd been an advisor to Joe. She'd checked his methods, helped him write his abstract, but she still hadn't seen his actual data. The raw numbers themselves, she didn't know for sure. If we could conclude with statistical certainty that his Findings were true. When I stopped to think about it, it seemed crazy that we'd made it through the whole trip without looking at this. But when I said that to my mom, she surprised me.

[Joe Nagai]

Is it going to hold up? If we do a statistical test, are we going to see a significant result? In some ways it doesn't really matter because a ton of other stuff has happened.

[Annie Rosenthal]

And then I surprised myself because I sort of disagreed. I was still thinking about the science, this thing about memory and generations. I wanted it to be true. This is kind of what I'm trying to understand. Like, does this finding matter?

[Joe Nagai]

Does this finding matter? I mean, does what, does what I do matter? You know, at some level, yes. At some level, no. Am I curing cancer? No. Am I stopping climate change? No. Am I helping myself and other people understand how organisms work and how they interact with their environment? Yes. And will that help us maybe understand our environments and our planets better and maybe help us have a little bit more empathy for some of the organisms that we live with? I hope so. But the other reason that it matters is because I care about Joe.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Joe, who'd spent five of his 10 years of life on these studies and reached out to a scientist across the world to help him find answers. This was important to him and he was important to us. And so we needed to know.

[Joe Nagai]

2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Joe and Sari brought his research binder to my mom's hotel room.

[Joe Nagai]

Lavender. How many butterflies?

[Annie Rosenthal]

Together we went through it page by page.

[Sari Nagai]

Nine of them went to the sugar water.

[Annie Rosenthal]

My mom asked about his controls and they double checked his count.

[Joe Nagai]

3, 4, 5, 6, 7.

[Annie Rosenthal]

And then she said they needed to do a test.

[Joe Nagai]

It's a test of probability and it's how likely something is to happen by chance. If we take our 10 yen coin and we flip it in the air, how many times are we going to get the castle? And how many times are we going to get the 10?

[Annie Rosenthal]

Joe looked at her for a second, a little confused.

[Joe Nagai]

Why don't you do it for me 10 times and tell me each time what you get. Just quickly. Okay, so you got a 10.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Joe and my mom sat at the table.

[Sari Nagai]

10.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Sari and I on twin beds, watching them flip the coin.

[Sari Nagai]

Paris.

[Annie Rosenthal]

In my head, I was cataloging all the little happenings that got us here.

[Joe Nagai]

Okay.

[Annie Rosenthal]

That Joe found my mom's research and could understand it. That he had a mom who could and would help him do his own research.

[Sari Nagai]

10.

[Annie Rosenthal]

That my mom would be so willing to get on board and to rope the rest of us in, too.

[Sari Nagai]

10. Paris.

[Joe Nagai]

Stop.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Five tens. Five palaces.

[Joe Nagai]

And that is pretty much what you would expect because they're the same, and half the time it's going to be one, and half the time it's going to be the other. Right. What if you did that and you got a ten ten times in a row, what would you think?

[Sari Nagai]

Ten is very heavy.

[Joe Nagai]

That there's something a little weird going on with that coin. Right. What we do first when we're doing this test is we figure out what our expectation is. Okay. And so for our first generation, we had 44 caterpillars made choices, right? Yes. We would expect if they hadn't learned anything, we would expect that 22 of them, half of them would go to sugar pocari Sweat and that 22 of them would go to lavender. Right.

[Annie Rosenthal]

And having just said how valuable the details of the science turn out to be, you don't really need to know how to do statistical analysis to understand what comes next.

[Joe Nagai]

So we're just going to go times 2 equals 6.07. Okay. Is 6.07 smaller or larger than 3.841?

[Sari Nagai]

Larger.

[Joe Nagai]

Larger. So that means that this result is very unlikely to happen just by chance. This means that something happened to those butterflies to make them make that choice. That is what we call a statistically significant result.

[Annie Rosenthal]

In the months since we got back from Japan, my mom and Joe have been drafting a paper on his findings together. They're going to send it to the Journal of the Lepidopterous Society to tell them we think this is really true. Butterflies can remember something they learned as caterpillars, and their kids can inherit that memory, too. In dc, My mom's been reading up on epigenetics. She told me she's been thinking about our conversations, remembering things from her own childhood and from when she was pregnant with me. She spent a long time in the hospital in the months before I was born, and a student had brought her a bunch of caterpillars to keep her company next to her bed in a little plastic shoebox. And as her stomach ballooned with fetus me inside, the caterpillars crawled out of their box and into different corners of the room to pupate.

[Joe Nagai]

As we know, lots of things are going on inside that chrysalis. So they were changing in the same way that you were changing, and then they emerged as butterflies, and you emerged as a little red frog with a weak chin. Oh, my God.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Joe, meanwhile, is Finessing his study on butterfly grandchild memory. He's about to finish fifth grade. A Javanese TV station recently aired an episode about him. When he opens the door to the camera crew, MTV Cribs style, he's wearing the hand lens my mom gave him on a ribbon around his neck.

[Molly Webster]

That was an excerpt of Caterpillar Roadshow, produced and reported by Annie Rosenthal. That story first premiered on the audio magazine Signal Hill. You can listen to the entire piece, along with a bunch of other really great stories from Signal Hill. And you can get that wherever you get podcasts. That's Signal Hill. So this story had sound design and editing by Liza Yeager and Jackson Roach, who I'm proud to say are former Radiolab interns. We miss you guys. They had help on the piece from Leo Wong and Omar Etman. It was fact checked by Alan Dean. Special thanks to Carlos Morales, John Lil Marfa, Public Radio, the Nagai family and the Rosenthal family, and Emma Garshagen for tipping us off to the story in the first place. And that's it. We will be back soon with a brand new full episode of Radiolab. I am Molly Webster. I got to listen this time. It was so fun listening with you.

[Unknown Caller]

Hi, I'm Dylan. I'm calling from the St. Lawrence river in upstate New York and here are the staff credits. Radiolab was created by Jad Abumrad and is edited by. Thorne Wheeler. Lula Miller and Lats of Nasser are our co hosts. Dylan Keefe is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Bressler, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Maria Paz Gutierrez, Sindhu, Niana Sambandan, Matt Kielce, Annie McKeown, Alex Neeson, Zara Khari, Zara Sandbach, Anissa Vitza, Arian Wack, Pat Walters and Molly Webster. Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Kraker and Natalie Middleton.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Hi, I'm Rafael calling from Fajo Pila, Brazil. Leadership support for Radiolabs science and programming is provided by the Gordon and Barrymore Foundation Science Sandbox, a Simons foundation initiative and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

[Joe Nagai]

Did you know Radiolab has a new live event series called viscera with ER, Dr. Aver Mitra. Well, we do. And we are bringing a new show to New York City on April 22nd. Join me, Lulu Miller and Aver and a bunch of experts as we talk about wild new discoveries in an ancient elixir that's Viscera, Elixir of Life at the Caveat Theater Tuesday, April 22 Doors at 7 Get your tickets at Caveat. That's C-V E A T.com NYC now.

[Annie Rosenthal]

Delivers Breaking news, top headlines and in depth coverage from WNYC and Gothamist every morning, midday and evening. By sponsoring our programming, you'll reach a community of passionate listeners in an uncluttered audio experience. Visit sponsorship.wnyc.org to learn more.