Straight Outta Chevy Chase

Summary

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Radiolab: “Straight Outta Chevy Chase”

Episode Date: April 1, 2014
Hosts: Jad Abumrad & Robert Krulwich
Guest Contributors: Andrew Marantz (The New Yorker), Peter Rosenberg (Hot 97), Frannie Kelley (NPR’s Microphone Check), Ali Shaheed Muhammad (A Tribe Called Quest)

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Episode Overview

“Straight Outta Chevy Chase” delves into the complexities of identity, authenticity, and cultural ownership in hip hop. Through the story of Peter Rosenberg—a prominent white radio DJ at NYC’s iconic hip hop station Hot 97—the episode explores what it means to be an “insider” or “outsider” in a genre rooted in Black and Latino culture, and unpacks a notorious on-air feud with superstar Nicki Minaj. The discussion ultimately broadens into debates about genre boundaries, gender, race, “realness,” and music’s evolutionary path.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Prototype Paradox: What Defines “Real” Hip Hop?

• Metaphor of the “fruitiest fruit”: Jad introduces the idea that categories in our minds are built around prototypes (e.g., the red apple) rather than strict criteria. This launches the question: who defines the “prototypical” hip hop artist now?
  • Jad Abumrad (01:09): “When you ask most people that question, they say apple or orange... Scientists have figured out... you call to mind the prototypical example of that category, and then you measure this new thing against it.”

2. The Evolution & Appropriation of Hip Hop

• Historical shift: Hip hop starts as a Black and Latino genre in ‘70s Bronx—then expands into mainstream, presenting dilemmas of ownership and “authenticity.”
  • Andrew Marantz (02:50): “The more white people come to the party, the more you kind of start going, okay, at what point is it... being replaced or taken over?... who owns the music now?”

3. Peter Rosenberg’s Backstory: From Chevy Chase to Hot 97

• Raised in suburban Maryland, Rosenberg fell in love with hip hop as a kid through late-night radio and schoolyard tape trades, eventually becoming “the rap guy” among his peers.
  • Peter Rosenberg (05:39): “At that time, though, [white kids into hip hop] was not common. It was something that was a badge of honor for both of us.”
  • Memorable moment: Trading a Poison tape for a Biz Markie album (“the best trade ever”). (06:33)

4. Barriers for White Artists & DJs in “Urban” Radio

• Rosenberg details how “urban” radio wouldn’t take a white DJ seriously unless they exaggerated (or denied) their whiteness, referencing categories like Bobby Konders (who “talks like he’s Jamaican”), or being a “super white” token for comic relief.
  • Peter Rosenberg (09:12): “White bosses have often been like, you’re really talented, but... would people really like you?... They assume their audience is so different.”

5. Breaking Into the Industry

• Rosenberg joins Hot 97 after new leadership takes hip hop’s changing demographics seriously.
  • Ebro Darden (half Black, half Jewish) sees Rosenberg’s value in his authenticity—keeping his real name, not a “hood” alias.
    • Peter Rosenberg (10:07): “Ebro gave me my parents’ name... that’s your name. Hot 97, Peter Rosenberg... It was my first day on the job.”
  • Hilarious debut at Summer Jam 2007, where his rookie nerves were evident.
    • Peter Rosenberg (10:25): “If you go back and watch that video... see how much of an ass I make of myself... I cannot believe, in retrospect, I survived.”

6. Insider Status, “Realness,” and the Role of the Gatekeeper

• Rosenberg’s persona is built on “realness,” curating underground artists and insisting on hip hop “purity.”
  • Andrew Marantz (11:49, 12:05): “‘The Realness’... can I be a real hip hop guy, even though I’m Peter Rosenberg from suburban Maryland?”
• Ali Shaheed Muhammad (A Tribe Called Quest) explains the essence of “boom bap”—the prototype Rosenberg upholds.
  • Ali Shaheed Muhammad (13:09): “Big sounding, drum wise, boom bap... a feeling of sound, of energy.”

7. Cultural Outsider, Emotional Insider

• Rosenberg’s love for hip hop is tied to its underdog status and the fight to defend it from mainstream dismissal.
  • Peter Rosenberg (14:58): “I wanted to be a part of this, of black culture... I’ve always been interested in loving things that require defense.”

8. The Nicki Minaj “Starships” Controversy

• Rosenberg criticizes Nicki Minaj’s pop hit “Starships” on-air, calling it “one of the most sellout songs in hip hop history.”
  • Peter Rosenberg (18:32): “...when core hip hop artists make pop songs, it upsets me... it can be a moment that blurs and messes up hip hop.”
• Minaj hears the diss via her fans and cancels her Summer Jam appearance—causing a massive industry stir and months-long fallout.
  • Peter Rosenberg (22:16): “Did you say something about Nicki Minaj? ...She just canceled the show.”
  • Andrew Marantz (23:06): “He was the third most trending thing in the world.”
• Rosenberg’s “realness” stance wins him cred among some for defending “authenticity,” but also ignites criticism over exclusion and gatekeeping.

9. Who Gets to Draw the Map?

• Rosenberg defends the necessity of tastemakers:
  • Peter Rosenberg (24:25): “If we don’t get to determine certain things, who does? ...We should leave that to the crazed 13-year-old who may not even like this artist in two years?”
• Frannie Kelley (NPR) pushes back, noting how notions of “real” hip hop are often gendered and used to invalidate music that is feminine or pop-oriented.
  • Frannie Kelley (25:16): “‘Real hip hop’ is usually code for aggressive, street, masculine... ‘pop’ is... code for feminine—perversion of the music.”

10. The Racial Layer & Post-Racial Myth

• Nicki Minaj challenges Rosenberg’s authority to judge her work, as a Black woman from Queens being critiqued by a white DJ from the suburbs:
  • Nicki Minaj (27:14): “I just don’t know your resume... I never found you funny... I just found you annoying... I don’t recognize you as an authority on what's authentic.”
  • (28:32): “Being white also struck a chord with me... he’s on a black station dissing black people.”
• Ali Shaheed Muhammad reframes this as part of hip hop’s growth—everyone’s “removed from the origin” now, and it's about heart, not background.
  • Ali Shaheed Muhammad (29:13): “...that’s what [hip hop is] supposed to be... If you’re gonna carry the torch... it’s your heart. It’s that feeling.”

11. Ultimate Ironies & Complications

• Rosenberg jokes about having “earned the right” to critique all artists, not just white rappers as before.
  • Peter Rosenberg (29:53): “If I diss white rappers... you only want me to go at Mac Miller. I used to only diss white rappers, but... I earned the right to diss all things I didn’t like.”
• Nicki and Rosenberg eventually reconcile on air, both apologizing, but Minaj also accuses Rosenberg (and society) of undermining her as a woman—and, to some degree, because of his whiteness.
  • Radiolab Announcer/Nicki Minaj (27:14, 28:32): “...I just found you annoying... and you’re white.”
• Rosenberg takes pride in influencing Minaj to return to a more hardcore hip hop sound.
  • Peter Rosenberg (30:27): “When her album’s awesome you will see me take lots of credit for it.”
• The episode closes questioning whether hip hop is “dead”—or, like Zappa’s quote about jazz, it “just smells funny” these days.

12. Post-Racial? Not So Fast

• Rosenberg shatters the notion of a “post-racial” industry, citing how industry and audiences treat white artists differently—particularly the phenomenon around Eminem:
  • Peter Rosenberg (32:51): “Nothing has driven me crazier than white people who come up and say, ‘You know, Eminem is so talented. I don’t even listen to hip hop. But Eminem—now he's good...’ No, you know that he’s white.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the prototype:
  "Scientists have figured out... you're not doing it based on a set list of traits. What you do is you call to mind the prototypical example... and measure against it." — Jad Abumrad (01:09)

• On being outsiders/insiders:
  "Most outsiders rarely become insiders." — Peter Rosenberg (11:58)

• On defending the genre:
  "I’ve always been very interested in loving things that require defense." — Peter Rosenberg (14:58)

• On Nicki Minaj and “Starships”:
  "This song right here, Starship, is literally one of the most sellout songs in hip hop history." — Peter Rosenberg (19:03)

• On boundaries and gender:
  “‘Real hip hop’... code for aggressive, street, masculine, authentic. 'Pop'... code for feminine.” — Frannie Kelley (25:16)

• On white participation:
  "Being white also struck a chord with me... he’s on a black station dissing black people... I just didn't like the feel of it." — Nicki Minaj (28:32)

• On hip hop's future:
  “Forty years into it, that’s what it’s supposed to be... at some point, what qualifies you? It’s your heart. It’s that feeling.” — Ali Shaheed Muhammad (29:13)

• On post-racial illusions:
  "Just look at what Eminem concerts look like and what the sales look like... that's all you need to see." — Peter Rosenberg (32:51)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:59-02:13 — Framing: What is the “fruitiest fruit” of hip hop?
• 02:19-05:35 — Rosenberg’s backstory, suburban beginnings
• 07:41-10:25 — Breaking into radio, early obstacles
• 11:28-12:33 — The “realness” persona & insider access
• 13:09-13:44 — Boom bap & Tribe Called Quest as prototype
• 14:58-15:25 — Passion for “defending” the genre
• 15:25-22:16 — The Nicki Minaj controversy erupts
• 23:06-24:25 — Rosenberg becomes a lightning rod and “gatekeeper”
• 25:16-25:42 — Gendered critiques of “real hip hop”
• 27:14-28:32 — Nicki Minaj challenges Rosenberg’s authority, addresses race
• 29:13-29:44 — Ali Shaheed Muhammad: evolution and remaining true to the feeling
• 32:51-34:55 — Rosenberg on the illusion of post-racial hip hop

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In Summary

This Radiolab episode uses the unlikely journey of Peter Rosenberg to probe the shifting meanings of authenticity, ownership, and boundaries in hip hop. The Nicki Minaj “Starships” beef acts as a flashpoint for broader debates on genre policing, gender, race, fandom, and the logic (and limits) of inclusion. By episode’s end, it’s clear that the questions—who gets to draw the map, who decides the prototype, whose voice and taste matter—remain open, as hip hop continues to evolve both from the inside and on its peripheries.

Transcript

[Andrew Morantz]

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[Jad Abumrad]

All right. Okay. All right.

[Radiolab Announcer]

You're listening to Radiolab.

[Andrew Morantz]

Radiolab shorts from wny.

[Jad Abumrad]

See?

[Andrew Morantz]

Yes, and npr.

[Jad Abumrad]

Hey, I'm Jad Abumrad.

[Robert Krulwich]

I'm Robert Kulwich.

[Jad Abumrad]

This is Radiolab, the podcast. Okay, so, Robert, here's a question that I've been puzzling over for a long time.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay.

[Jad Abumrad]

What is the fruitiest fruit that you know?

[Robert Krulwich]

My fruitiest fruit is a plum.

[Jad Abumrad]

Well, no, I mean, that's. Well, that's yours. I don't want to take that away from you.

[Robert Krulwich]

No, you shouldn't.

[Jad Abumrad]

But when you ask most people that question, they say apple or orange? No, I mean, it's true. Scientists have figured out that when you make a category in your mind, you're not doing it based on, like a set list of traits. You're like. What you do is you call to mind the. The prototypical example of that category, and then you measure this new thing against it. And for fruits prototype is the gala apple. If you ask me, the red, shiny, waxy apple.

[Robert Krulwich]

You say there's somebody who's decided that an apple is the fruity fruit.

[Jad Abumrad]

They've done experiments.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh, they've done experiments.

[Jad Abumrad]

They've done experiments.

[Robert Krulwich]

I bet you bananas out poll apples for consumption.

[Jad Abumrad]

Maybe. But that's not what makes a fruitiest fruit a fruity fruit. It's more about, like, how well it represents the category.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay.

[Jad Abumrad]

That's what it's about.

[Robert Krulwich]

Why are we talking about this, though?

[Jad Abumrad]

Well, because I've been wanting to explore this in story form forever. Forever.

[Robert Krulwich]

But you never have a story, so it's like you never find a story.

[Jad Abumrad]

But I got one now.

[Robert Krulwich]

You did what?

[Jad Abumrad]

It's not about fruit, though.

[Robert Krulwich]

What is it about?

[Jad Abumrad]

It's about this.

[Robert Krulwich]

That's what it says. What is it? What are you talking about?

[Jad Abumrad]

Let me explain. Hey. Hey. So we met this guy, Andrew Morantz.

[Andrew Morantz]

I work at the New Yorker as an editor and I write stuff.

[Robert Krulwich]

Occasionally wandered in here one day by mistake, I think.

[Jad Abumrad]

Super interesting guy, great reporter. And he ended up talking with us about this story. He was reporting for the New Yorker about hip hop.

[Andrew Morantz]

There are all kinds of rappers who are trying to sing and how hip.

[Jad Abumrad]

Hop might be changing. Because as we all know, this was a genre of music that began in a really specific time and place. Bronx, 70s, black and Latino kids. But it's since expanded so much that these inevitable questions pop up.

[Andrew Morantz]

You know, to really simplify it, the more white people come to the party, the more you kind of start going, okay, at what point is it. It's clearly okay if everyone in the room is black, and it's okay if everyone in the room is black except for one guy. You know, if Rick Rubin's at the party. But it's still, you know, black people at the tunnel in 1989 or whatever, it's still okay. But at what point, okay, if it's 50% white, if it's 75% white, if all the people who own the record labels are white, if a majority of the popular rappers are white, like, at what point? And that's just the racial thing. Then there's also the. Sonically, the way it sounds, there's the way the production is kind of merged with other forms of music. So then all of a sudden, you're at a point where you get the sense that there's somehow inherently that there's something being replaced or taken over. You start to have this dilemma, which.

[Jad Abumrad]

Is, you know, who owns the music now?

[Andrew Morantz]

And the dilemma is obviously heightened by the fact that everyone knew this was coming. Like, there's never been a form of American popular music, as far as I know, that wasn't invented by black people and co opted by white people.

[Jad Abumrad]

And Andrew, in his piece and in this story, focuses on a guy who sits right at the heart of that dilemma. One of the most influential DJs in hip hop today, Peter Rosenberg is his name.

[Andrew Morantz]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

So tell. Tell me how you came to him.

[Andrew Morantz]

I mean, the first thing was Kyle97.

[Peter Rosenberg]

The most important hip hop radio station.

[Andrew Morantz]

In the world, listening to Hot 97. Hot 97. Because I like rap and I want to know what is popular. And I was listening and I heard this guy who they kept calling Rosenberg Rosenberg. And I was like, is that Rosenberg? Is that like Whoopi Goldberg Rosenberg? Like, what does that mean? And then I looked him up and I was like, no, it's just a guy named Peter Rosenberg.

[Peter Rosenberg]

121 2, 121 2. I mean, listen, doing NPR is already pretty soft, you know what I'm saying?

[Jad Abumrad]

He actually works just down the block from us is this gonna hurt your cred in some kind? No.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Possibly.

[Andrew Morantz]

So he's a Guy born in 1979. He grew up in.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I grew up in Chevy Chase, Maryland.

[Jad Abumrad]

Is it Chevy with a ch.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yes, it is.

[Jad Abumrad]

Peter says when he was about nine, his brother.

[Peter Rosenberg]

My brother's name is Nick Rosenberg.

[Jad Abumrad]

His brother started staying up late and making tapes.

[Peter Rosenberg]

DJ Red Alert. Marley Marle, he would start taping those.

[Jad Abumrad]

Guys on the radio at that point. 1987, 98, here in New York. They were the only two people playing hip hop. And it was late at night.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And at the time, I didn't consider myself a music person. I was only 8, but I really was like, oh, music's okay, but I'm really in. I'm just obsessed with sports. And then at some point, I was like, oh, no, no. I love this.

[Andrew Morantz]

It was punk. It was rebellious. It was interesting. It was just cool, you know?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Now, to be honest, it's almost cliched when people say that. Like, who would ever guess you'd be into hip hop? I'm like, I don't know. I would. Cause I know a million white kids who are into hip hop. At that time, though, it was not common. It was very much something that was a badge of honor for both of us. That we really, really loved it. And I was extra cool. Cause I was super young. I remember one day, here's a great thing. I traded Javon my Poison tape. I had Poison's album on tape. Every Rose Has a Thorn album. I traded that Poison tape for his Bismarcky tape. I was like, this is the best trade ever. It was Biz is going off like it's a classic album. And then at some point, my dad went out. He was coming home from work one day. And he said he stopped it. Nobody beats the Wiz. He asked the guy behind the counter what, like, the good rap albums were. And the kid actually gave him a pretty good recommendation. And he bought me a tape called Girls. I Got Unlocked by Super Lover C and Casanova Rudd.

[Robert Krulwich]

What a father you have.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I know funky dope and you're stupid I'm still your entertainer Causing you to get down, bust a soup and rocket punt without doing the James Brown. So my knowledge base was always very high, very early. I had some friends in elementary school. And we would talk about rap a little bit. But quickly I exceeded them.

[Robert Krulwich]

Chuck.

[Jad Abumrad]

Chuck.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And then I got to high school.

[Jad Abumrad]

And I.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Really took seriously being the rap guy. When I heard the passion in Public Enemy, like, that resonated with me. Like the NWA scared me. But made me interested. I just thought, this is cr. I was like, yo, these guys are killing people. Like, this is really happening.

[Robert Krulwich]

Was it really happening or were you going to the movies in song form?

[Peter Rosenberg]

I was going to the movies, but to me, I didn't know the line. Coming straight out of Compton.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay, so Peter goes off to college, mid-90s, did college radio, hip hop show, and then as he gets out, decides he wants to do this for real.

[Andrew Morantz]

He secretly, you know, wanted to be a hip hop dj, but people were not taking him seriously.

[Jad Abumrad]

You know, white kid from the suburbs. Didn't compute.

[Andrew Morantz]

He couldn't get on what was then called urban radio.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So I ended up doing a year on the Howard Stern station.

[Andrew Morantz]

He was doing, like, talk radio, you.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Know, uhf, which I was part time.

[Andrew Morantz]

Whatever kind of radio. So he kept calling Hot 97. And the program director then was a white guy from Utah.

[Peter Rosenberg]

You know, I gave him my spiel. I was like, I'm super passionate about hip hop. I'm super honest. I don't think there's ever been someone who looks like me and is from my background who has as honest and loud a voice as me. I really think I'll be something different. And he basically said, I don't doubt.

[Andrew Morantz]

You, but no, you. What are you talking about? I mean, they had token white people on various shows, but it was either you're super white, like Lisa G. She was on the morning show for a little while. I remember that she was super white.

[Jad Abumrad]

And that was kind of the joke.

[Andrew Morantz]

Or you were Bobby Condors, who does the Sunday night reggae show, who you would never know he's white. Because he just talks like he's Jamaican, and he only plays Jamaican music. He only hangs out with Jamaican people. So you had to be one of those two things where you denied your.

[Jad Abumrad]

Whiteness, or you just were like, I'm gonna.

[Andrew Morantz]

I'm gonna be the butt of the joke.

[Peter Rosenberg]

White bosses have often been like, you're really talented, but I don't know, would people really like you? Like, we don't. They talk to me the way we're talking right now and think, if I'm able to relate to you this way, why would our audience relate to you?

[Robert Krulwich]

If I say yes, then why would my audience say yes with me?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Because they assume their audience is so different than them, which might have been.

[Jad Abumrad]

True for a while.

[Andrew Morantz]

And then 2007, Ebro Darden took over.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Ebro Darden in the building. What's up, man? How you doing, sir? I'm doing great, man.

[Jad Abumrad]

This is him on air.

[Andrew Morantz]

Ebro, a half black, half Jewish guy from Oakland. And he got it did.

[Jad Abumrad]

Hip hop had changed.

[Andrew Morantz]

It's no longer so small and simple and provincial that we can go on pretending this is only a black and Latino thing.

[Jad Abumrad]

So when Peter came to the station and gave him the pitch, hey, I'm.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Pmd, which was my old name back then.

[Andrew Morantz]

Cause I'm P. P for Peter and MD for Marilyn. You can call me pmd. And Ebro was like, no, you're Rosenberg.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Ebro gave me my parents name, more or less. He was like, the hook is that. That's your name. Hot 97, Peter Rosenberg, Summer Jam 2007. There's a video on YouTube of. It's called, I think Peter Rosenberg does Summer Jam 2007. And it was my first day on the job.

[Andrew Morantz]

Summer Jam is the biggest event of the year at Hot 97. It's this big show at Giant Stadium.

[Jad Abumrad]

All the top acts.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I showed up there. And so my first day was just walking in a Giant Stadium, parking my car by myself, getting a backstage pass and being given a mic flag that says Hot 97, the place I've always wanted to work. And being told, go up to all the famous artists who are here and just get interviewed. And if you go back and watch that video and see how much of an ass I make of myself, I say to T.I. i think I go, is this your first summer jam? 1st TI have you done a summer jam before? And he looks at whoever he's with and they both start laughing. I'm asking, have you done many summer jams? Today is your first day on the day job. My first day on the job. You could, I could tell. And I cannot believe in retrospect, I survived to this day. Cypher Sounds and Rosenberg show with K.

[Jad Abumrad]

Pop on Hot 97 not only survived, he became the host of two shows on Hot 97, a late night underground show, and also the big weekday morning show.

[Andrew Morantz]

And Rosenberg's brand is all about realness.

[Peter Rosenberg]

The Realness.

[Andrew Morantz]

His segment in the morning is called the Realness. His late night show Sunday night to Monday morning.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Peter Rosenberg.

[Andrew Morantz]

It's called Real Late with Peter Rosenberg. It's all real, real, real.

[Peter Rosenberg]

It's gonna be real. Is it real?

[Andrew Morantz]

Because that's the central question. Can I be a real hip hop guy, even though I'm Peter Rosenberg from suburban Maryland?

[Peter Rosenberg]

I think you're raising an interesting point. Most outsiders rarely become insiders, but Peter.

[Jad Abumrad]

Says the key to understanding him is that he's kind of both. Like on the one hand, he is this suburban white kid from Maryland. He doesn't pretend to be anything but. But on the other hand, I mean.

[Andrew Morantz]

A big part of Rosenberg's job is to go to shows and blogs and get tapes from people and find the new thing. So he has a stable of like 20 or 30 underground artists who are making tapes and, you know, trying to.

[Jad Abumrad]

Pass around beats and what's more insider y than that?

[Andrew Morantz]

Plus, he is like a purist.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I've always liked there's a certain pure form of hip hop.

[Andrew Morantz]

And because, you know, in the kind of rap nerd community, they talk about certain things that are like lyrics and listening for the metaphors and the intricacies of the music. They talk about boom bap beats.

[Ali Shahid Muhammad]

Big sounding, drum wise, boom bap like a. It's just a feeling of sound, of energy. This is Ali, Ali Shahid Muhammad, A Tribe Called Quest.

[Jad Abumrad]

We call him up because he is the DJ and producer for A Tribe Called Quest. And for Peter Tribe, they're the prototype.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I was obsessed with them.

[Jad Abumrad]

They were. They are like that shiny red apple. They defined the category.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And in fact, I guess up until.

[Jad Abumrad]

My wedding weekend, best weekend of his life, he says, or I guess now would be his second best was when he was. I was 14 and he went to a tribe show.

[Peter Rosenberg]

It was everything I ever dreamed a hip hop concert experience would be.

[Jad Abumrad]

He says he spent the whole time at the front of the stage waving this hat around that said Dawgs D.

[Peter Rosenberg]

A W g S because one of.

[Jad Abumrad]

The lead rappers was named Fifdog.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And I held up my dog hat so much at the concert that eventually fife the fife. The fife dog acknowledged me the same way I would do now if I was hosting and someone kept doing it. He just gave me the hand like, I got it. You can put the hat down now.

[Jad Abumrad]

This was a weird moment for hip hop, not just for Peter, but for hip hop in general. Like the early 90s. This was a moment when you had stations like Hot 97 converting to all hip hop formats, playing, you know, NWA, Public Enemy, Tribe Called Quest groups, you know, that were suddenly attracting loads of white suburban fans. Yet if you listen to their lyrics, some of them at least, they were about stuff those fans could have never experienced.

[Ali Shahid Muhammad]

Struggle, oppression, lack of opportunities in the ghettos. The fact that you have young black teenagers who are living in a society where they're told that they will never amount to anything and that their lives have no value, no worth, that to me becomes the angst and the frustration and the rage, which is the embodiment of the music.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I wanted to be a part of this, of black culture. Like, I felt. I've always been very interested in loving things that require defense.

[Jad Abumrad]

And hip hop is definitely that from the beginning. It was initially shunned by black radio because it was thought to be indecent. Then you had the whole Tipper Gore thing.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I love things like that.

[Andrew Morantz]

I don't know why.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And I think I do always see hip hop in that sort of light, in the way that it needs defense.

[Jad Abumrad]

Can we talk about your fracas with Nicki Minaj?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Of course. That's my paragraph, too. If, God forbid, I drop dead tomorrow, it's Peter Rosenberg was on Hot 97. Blah, blah. Next paragraph.

[Andrew Morantz]

In 2012, Nicki Minaj is this rapper from Queens. Hugely talented rapper.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, wait, she's not the one on American Idol, is she? Oh, okay, now I have a face for the name.

[Andrew Morantz]

And she kind of blew everyone away on this Kanye song called Monster. You know, she was with all these big rappers, and Jay Z was on the song, and she blew everyone out of the water.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I thought she was really good. I thought she was a natural and beautiful. Like, I thought she was the total package.

[Radiolab Announcer]

Wait, I'm the rookie.

[Peter Rosenberg]

In fact, the year before it all happened, 2011, I pulled her aside at Summer Jam, and I said, hey, I think you could be the greatest female artist of all time. The greatest female rap artist of all time. And I just want you to know that in thinking that I'm gonna hold you to a high standard, so I probably will say things about you.

[Jad Abumrad]

You said all of that?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah, in a really quick moment, too. It was really brief. She probably wouldn't even remember it, but it happened.

[Jad Abumrad]

I would remember that if someone said.

[Peter Rosenberg]

That and I said, I think you could be the greatest.

[Andrew Morantz]

She had all this underground cred, right? And then how did she spend that cred? Well, she started making poppier and poppier.

[Jad Abumrad]

Records, culminating in the following song, which, if you are me, you've not been able to get out of your head for a week.

[Andrew Morantz]

She made this song called Starships. Let's go to the beach, eat, let's go get a wave they say what.

[Peter Rosenberg]

They gonna say have a drink.

[Andrew Morantz]

Starships is a blatant pop song, Lowest common denominator.

[Peter Rosenberg]

So I didn't. I didn't like the song.

[Andrew Morantz]

You listen to that song and you cannot tell that it's not a song by Katy Perry or Pink or it could be anyone. So all of a sudden, who is the underground cred cop but Peter Rosenberg several mornings for his segment called the Realness, he would get on there and play a. Play a clip of Starship.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Check out this hip hop. If that's hardcore hip hop, then would this song be considered another hardcore hip hop song?

[Jad Abumrad]

No.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Stop it. That's not fair. That's not fair. Maybe she's just.

[Andrew Morantz]

There is a real question being asked at the center of this, which is what is this music where the boundaries are? And also is this where hip hop is going? Is it just let me cash in and just follow the trends of what white music is doing.

[Jad Abumrad]

Would it be too strong to call it like you felt betrayed as a music fan?

[Peter Rosenberg]

Yeah, it felt like, come on in the moment. It felt like you're a hip hop star. Why would you do this? This is not for us. When core hip hop artists make pop songs, it upsets me because it can be a moment that blurs and messes up hip hop. To be frank, this song right here, Starship, is literally one of the most sellout songs in hip hop history.

[Jad Abumrad]

Just to put that comment in a little tiny bit more context for just a second now, we mentioned, of course, the history, right, that so many forms of popular music have been invented by black people, co opted by white people. Jazz, blues, rock, we all know this now, according to Franny Kelly, one of.

[Franny Kelly]

The hosts of a podcast called Microphone.

[Jad Abumrad]

Check, which is a hip hop podcast from NPR Music.

[Franny Kelly]

According to her, 2013 was the first year that no black artist had a number one song since 1958.

[Jad Abumrad]

Since they started the Hot 100 charts. This is the first year where no black artist has made it to number one. Now, this may be a blip, may not be, but what's clear is that there is a new force in town, a style of music called Edmund.

[Andrew Morantz]

EDM is a meaningless acronym that stands for electronic dance music. And it's like, you know, it's more.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Like an then a boom bap.

[Jad Abumrad]

It's sort of an amalgam of synthy, dancey, techno, yuro, poppy stuff. And it has taken over.

[Franny Kelly]

What happened with EDM was just so glaring and fast. And then to see that sort of start to creep into hip hop was.

[Jad Abumrad]

Scary for people because according to Franny Kelly, what's scary is that EDM is a style of music that's meant to work on any dance floor, with any crowd. So in a way, it's like a music without history on purpose.

[Franny Kelly]

A lot of the criticism of like EDM is that it is all about money. It is the corporatization of a Genre with a long history. So in some ways, I think the root of the protest is don't sell our stuff to the highest bidder.

[Jad Abumrad]

It's a little context. Anyhow, after one of the most sellout.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Songs in hip hop history. Listen to it.

[Jad Abumrad]

After Peter trash talks Nicki Minaj's Starships, we arrive at that year's Summer Jam 2012.

[Andrew Morantz]

And that year, Nicki Minaj was going to be one of the big headliners.

[Jad Abumrad]

Plan was for her to perform on the main stage inside Giant Stadium.

[Andrew Morantz]

But outside the stadium in the parking lot, earlier in the day, there's the festival stage, which is where the underground backpack kids hang out. And that's Rosenberg's zone. So he's introducing the acts on that stage.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Now, hold on. Before I get to the real hip hop of the day, because I see the real hip hop head sprinkled in here. I see him. I said, in trying to hype up this crowd, I know there are some chicks here waiting to sing Starships later. I'm not talking to you. All right, now that bullshit crowd kinda goes ooh. And cheer a little bit. Like there's a cheer. Nothing crazy though, just a regular cheer. It's not like I didn't realize a bomb was dropped. I forgot that not only was the festival stage live streaming, but it was live streaming on her website.

[Andrew Morantz]

And her core fans, her barbs, as they're known, are 13 year old girls. And when they see Peter say that, they go wild. And they go out on the Internet.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Saying, who is this Rosenberg guy? What is his deal?

[Jad Abumrad]

And he says, within minutes, it got.

[Andrew Morantz]

Back to Nikki and her people before.

[Jad Abumrad]

She went on stage.

[Andrew Morantz]

Before she went on stage.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, this is interesting.

[Andrew Morantz]

So then there's this backstage conversation. Rosenberg, basically, as soon as he gets off stage, his boss, my boss comes.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Out, pokes his head around the curtain and goes, did you say something about Nicki Minaj? I was like, uh. And I legit didn't remember. I'm like, oh, yeah, I did. And he's like, yeah, well, she just canceled the show, so she's not coming. And I was like. I was like, oh. And I looked at my phone and I go to Twitter sitting on the stage. The crowd's all out there. I'm at Giant Stadium. And I look on Twitter and I go to Trends. And on the main Trend page it just says Peter Rosenberg. And I was like, oh, wow, this is nuts. This is a Sunday afternoon at like 5 o'.

[Andrew Morantz]

Clock.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And I was like the third most trending thing in the world. Starships were meant to fly. I was just watching my name get bigger In a moment.

[Franny Kelly]

Hot 97's CJ, Peter Rosenberg.

[Peter Rosenberg]

One of the big dramas to happen in New York. I was reading just my name over and over and over again. The dude Rosenberg. The dude from Hot 97, Peter Rosenberg.

[Andrew Morantz]

All these people saying, I don't know who this guy is, but he's dissing my favorite artist.

[Radiolab Announcer]

I'm just really disappointed and I don't understand how she.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I was reading. Who is this guy? What he said that starship song was not hip hop.

[Franny Kelly]

Peter Rosenberg.

[Radiolab Announcer]

Man, that's not real hip hop.

[Peter Rosenberg]

One man say one thing and everybody suffers for this.

[Jad Abumrad]

He must have gotten some serious cred from this.

[Andrew Morantz]

Yes. Not only was his name getting out there, but it was was getting out there as I'm the gatekeeper, I'm the defender. I'm the defender of the real, the realness.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I couldn't appreciate it at first because I didn't know if I was maybe gonna get fired for messing up Summer Jam.

[Andrew Morantz]

Because Nikki isn't beefing with the station.

[Radiolab Announcer]

I wouldn't dare come on your stage or even say something to my stand.

[Andrew Morantz]

She's calling in, you know, Matt at.

[Peter Rosenberg]

The station, apologize to Nicki.

[Andrew Morantz]

Busta Rhymes gets involved, trying to broker a deal. Punk Master Flex gets involved.

[Robert Krulwich]

We exchange.

[Andrew Morantz]

They're trying to reach a detente. It becomes a months long process.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Nuts.

[Robert Krulwich]

If they say unanimously, no, you were wrong about that song. This is our song. We included in our map of what's going on. Stop trying to draw the map. What do you say to that? In your inside of you.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I think my gut reaction is, you know, nothing. You don't draw the map. You need people like us to draw the map or there's nothing. Or what is there. If we don't get to determine certain things, who does? We should leave that to the crazed 13 year old who may not even like this artist in two years as.

[Franny Kelly]

A woman hearing that, it's Franny Kelly again. This idea that young girls will hear Starships and say, oh, that's hip hop. That's what I want to hear. That's what I'm going to judge everything against is wildly unfair to the intelligence of young girls.

[Jad Abumrad]

Franny says they can figure out the difference between hip hop and pop. They don't need help.

[Franny Kelly]

It's insulting. And furthermore, when he chose Starships to single out, it felt revealing of another layer to this debate that people weren't.

[Jad Abumrad]

Saying out loud, which is that when people refer to things as quote, Real hip hop. That's usually code for aggressive, street, masculine, authentic. Whereas when they say pop, that's usually.

[Franny Kelly]

Code for feminine, which is a perversion of the music, period. And so there is this idea that, you know, people make songs for the ladies, which implies that all the rest of them are songs that we can't hear or, God forbid, understand.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay, so all of this was swirling around. Months go by, and then fast forward.

[Peter Rosenberg]

To the week before the next Summer jam.

[Robert Krulwich]

This is 2014.

[Andrew Morantz]

2013. I mean, 2013. Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

The feud is still going at this point.

[Peter Rosenberg]

It's a year later, but according to.

[Jad Abumrad]

Andrew, Nicki decides it's time to settle. Maybe because she wanted to perform at that year's Summer Jam.

[Andrew Morantz]

So Nicki Minaj sits down with radio.

[Jad Abumrad]

Station Hot 97 to clear the air.

[Peter Rosenberg]

With DJ Peter Rosenberg.

[Andrew Morantz]

She comes to the station before Summer Jam to make her piece, and they do this whole interview with Rosenberg and Nicki Minaj and Ebro. The boss is. Is moderating on the air. On the air.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Rosenberg.

[Ali Shahid Muhammad]

So this is on you, sir.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Where would you like this interview to go? I don't know. I'm excited. I'm excited to see Nikki because it's very odd to have someone that you don't know very well who's become, like, such a fixture in your life. Like, I've always wondered. I was always like, I wonder if Nikki knows that she's come up every day in my life for 350 days. Like, point that where Starships got played on my wedding. And it was like, the biggest deal at my wedding was Starships playing at my wedding.

[Jad Abumrad]

After some opening remarks, Peter basically apologizes.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I am sorry that things went as left as they did. I never had ill feelings about you as a human being ever.

[Jad Abumrad]

Basically says, I have nothing against you.

[Peter Rosenberg]

As a person beyond my sort of distaste for that song.

[Radiolab Announcer]

That's cool. It's water under the bridge.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Do you mean that?

[Radiolab Announcer]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

She then goes out of her way to apologize to her fans for skipping out on the gig. But then the gloves come off.

[Radiolab Announcer]

You know what? Like, I get it. Like, that's what you do. I guess, to me, I just don't know your resume. You know what I'm saying? So I never found you funny. I never found you entertaining. I never found you smart. I just found you annoying. Because, you know, I grew up in New York. I've grown up on Hot 97. Like, I know Angie, and I know Flex and Mr. C and all these people, whether they like me or whether or not we get along. I just know their resume. But, like, with you, I was just like, who are you?

[Andrew Morantz]

I don't recognize you as an authority on what's authentic.

[Radiolab Announcer]

To me, you don't have enough of a resume to make those comments.

[Andrew Morantz]

Who are you to tell me what to do?

[Radiolab Announcer]

What people don't understand is that when I came, when I was doing this, I took a lot of. From people, from men.

[Peter Rosenberg]

She was like, my whole career, there have just been random men who have, like, been in a position to stop me and tell me why I'm not good enough.

[Radiolab Announcer]

I just. I just dealt with a lot of stuff from guys.

[Peter Rosenberg]

And here you are. I don't know you. You're just some random man. And then Ebro jumps in and kind of jokingly trying to lighten the mood, goes, and you're white. I didn't even say that.

[Ali Shahid Muhammad]

White.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I never. She never implied anything about white. She implied the man. I did. And then she jumps in and goes, no, no, no. That too.

[Radiolab Announcer]

Being white also struck a chord with me, if I'm being honest, because I was like, yo, he's on a black station dissing black people. Like, I don't. I don't. I just didn't like the feel of it.

[Jad Abumrad]

And here you get back to that idea, that category idea that, like, when you don't have that, like, set list of criteria to help you figure out who's in and who's out, it's all about a gut feeling. And to Nicki Minaj, that moment to have a white guy from the suburbs tell her a black woman from Queens that she's not hip hop enough, it just felt wrong. But then Ali Shahid Muhammad from Tribe Called Quest put it this way. Maybe it feels wrong, but maybe this is actually evolution.

[Ali Shahid Muhammad]

Forty years into it, that's what it's supposed to be. At some point, we're all going to be so far removed from the origin that no one would then qualify, really. But if you're going to be the person to carry the torch, I guess to be the gatekeeper, then at some point, what qualifies you? It's your heart. It's that feeling. You could be Bill Gates kid and still understand the struggle enough to be like, yo, I'm riding with that. Yeah, and I want to fight for that.

[Radiolab Announcer]

I was like, yo, he's on a black station dissing black people. Like, I don't. I don't. I just didn't like the feel of it.

[Peter Rosenberg]

Who am I gonna diss if not black people? I'm on a hip Hop station. I have to diss black people sometimes. If I diss white rappers. Absolutely not. You watch your mouth, sir. You only want me to go at Mac Miller. I mean, who am I gonna go? And Macklemore and Mac? You have plenty of artists now. I used to only diss white rappers, but as I've gotten further along, I felt I earned the right to diss all things I didn't like.

[Radiolab Announcer]

Should have been waiting with the Ratchets.

[Jad Abumrad]

I was like, I don't know.

[Andrew Morantz]

Who waited at Rosenberg to this day takes credit for her saying, my next project is gonna be a hardcore hip hop album.

[Peter Rosenberg]

When her album's awesome, you will see me take lots of credit for it. Absolutely. She called me the other day and I was half asleep. And she's like, hello. I know you're thinking, why is this bitch calling me? And I was like, not at all. What's going on? And she wanted to ask me about her new song. And the amazing thing was she wanted to ask me an opinion on something. And it makes me feel ultimately super special.

[Jad Abumrad]

So we asked Peter, like, so what does that mean? Like, if you are now a gatekeeper, you, white guy from suburban Maryland, on a very commercial radio station, what does that mean for hip hop? Does that mean that hip hop has by default been co opted? Because, like, here you are.

[Peter Rosenberg]

I don't know. I mean, I feel like hip hop is in a better place now than before I started doing this. I would break it down on paper and go, let me tell you where we were when I started my underground show in 2007. Then let me tell you where I think we are in 2014. And let me show you how many of those artists I broke and supported and worked hard with and talked to the label about and pushed, and how many I had an involvement with. I think you'd see a really high percentage.

[Jad Abumrad]

So that was part of his answer. We asked Andrew the same question.

[Andrew Morantz]

It's complicated. I mean, I. Look, I. I don't think that hip hop is dead. There was some quote, Frank Zappa, I think, said, jazz isn't dead. It just smells funny. Like, I don't think hip hop is wonderful.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah, that should be our title.

[Andrew Morantz]

But I do think. I think hip hop isn't dead. It just smells funny.

[Peter Rosenberg]

It always smells a little funky.

[Jad Abumrad]

Huge thanks to Andrew Morantz and the New Yorker magazine for letting us borrow Andrew for a beat. Definitely check out his story in the New Yorker magazine. It's called Old School. It's a great story. Goes into way more detail than we can get into here. Also, big thanks to Franny Kelly and Ali Shahid Muhammad, who together they co host the NPR podcast Microphone Check. And. Well, I'm Chad Abumrad.

[Robert Krulwich]

I'm Robert Krulwich.

[Jad Abumrad]

Thank you for listening. Oh, and before we go, just one last thing. So lest you think that like, hip hop has arrived at this new, like, quote, post racial situation, which, you know, for a second we were like, maybe we're just thinking out loud with Peter. He was like, no way.

[Peter Rosenberg]

No God. If there's one thing I could demand that air during this piece, it would be this statement right here. Nothing has driven me more crazy over the course of my time in hip hop then white people who come up to me and go, you know, and it used to be really bad when he first came out. You know, Eminem is just so talented. I don't even listen to hip hop. But Eminem, I mean, now he's good. Well, if you don't listen to hip hop, why the hell should I care what your thoughts on Eminem are? And how do you know that he's good? No, you know that he's white. You know that he's white. And is Eminem good? Yes. It just so happens that he's as good as you're guessing he is. But that's random. You don't even know that Eminem could be any. Could have been one of the dudes from Milli Vanilli and you would have thought it was great. And that drives me nuts. And so anytime I think about, oh, we're post racial, just look at what Eminem concerts look like and what the sales look like. And you can be instantly reminded that even though Eminem has no experience that average suburban white America could ever identify with, I mean, culturally, the experience he went through is much more common with someone who went through a black struggle than any sort of regular white suburban life. And this is a guy who came up in a rough situation in a million ways, was the odd man out all the time, never had anything, and then makes it. And all of a sudden the fact that people are like, I so identify with him. What is it? Why do I identify with a guy who's from a trailer park, from a history of drug abuse, who raps about things that I'd be terrified of if a black man was saying it, But I identify with him so much. And then Eminem, cuz he's amazing, raps about this same thing. He does a song called Dear White America where he tells them, you're an idiot. You let your kids listen to me, but you wouldn't let them listen to anyone else just cause I'm white. You're an idiot. And they love it. It's unbelievable. My name is Ayushi Srivastava and I'm calling from the University of Chicago. Radiolab is supported in part by the.

[Radiolab Announcer]

National Science foundation and by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation. Enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. More information about [e-mail].