Radiolab: "The Bad Show" (January 9, 2012) Episode Summary

Overview In "The Bad Show," Radiolab explores the nature of human evil through an array of psychological experiments, historical figures, and real-life stories. The hosts—Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich—probe the question: are people inherently bad, or do circumstances make us do bad things? The episode weaves together chilling true tales, scientific insight, and literary analysis, moving from everyday homicidal fantasies to infamous psychological experiments, from the tragic genius of Fritz Haber to Shakespeare’s darkest villains, and finally to the confounding evil of serial killers. The episode challenges the notion of "evil," raising unsettling questions about motive, morality, and meaning.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

I. The Universality of Dark Thoughts
[03:45–15:40]

• Pat Walters tells the story of psychology professor David Buss and his experience with a friend’s near-violent outburst.
• David Buss’s research reveals a surprisingly high percentage of people have considered killing someone.
  • “91% of the men said yes. And 84% of the women said yes, I've thought about killing someone.” — David Buss [11:31]
• Example of a female student who describes a specific murder fantasy, revealing these thoughts can be disturbingly elaborate.
• Jad and Robert discuss the implications: Are these just fantasies, or is something deeper at play in human nature?
• Memorable Quote:
  • “If any sizable fraction actually acted on their homicidal fantasies, the streets would be running red.” — David Buss [11:58]

II. The Milgram Experiment: Obedience and Evil
[15:45–43:00]

• The hosts reenact Stanley Milgram’s famous 1962 Yale experiment, in which participants believe they’re delivering painful shocks to a stranger when told to by an authority figure.
• Ben Walker provides context: Milgram’s study was inspired by questions raised at the Eichmann trial—could ordinary people commit atrocity simply by obeying orders?
• Results were shocking: 65% of participants delivered what they believed were the highest, potentially lethal shocks, just because they were instructed to do so.
• However, psychologist Alex Haslam (Exeter) reveals the lesser-known variants of the Milgram study:
  • If authority is diminished (no scientist’s white coat), compliance plummets.
  • If others refuse orders, compliance drops to near zero.
  • “If you put two experimenters in the room and they start disagreeing with each other… you get zero percent going all the way.” — Alex Haslam [41:50]
• New interpretation: People don’t simply "obey"—they comply if they are convinced of the righteousness of the cause (e.g., for science).
• Milgram's key finding is reinterpreted—not blind obedience, but willing participation in the name of a greater good.
• Haslam’s crucial observation:
  • “When you’re enjoined to do something for the greater good, maybe ask yourself: What is greater and what is good?” — Alex Haslam [51:58]

III. The Paradox of Fritz Haber: Feeding (and Killing) the World
[43:15–1:17:30]

• Story told by Sam Kean, Dan Charles, Latif Nasser, Fred Kaufman, and others.
• Fritz Haber, a German-Jewish chemist, invents the process for synthesizing ammonia from air, enabling the creation of fertilizer and supporting population growth—potentially saving billions from hunger.
• Memorable moment:
  • “Half of each of our bodies contains nitrogen from the Haber process.” — Sam Kean [53:13]
• Haber later would weaponize his invention, producing explosives and chemical weapons (chlorine gas) in WWI, personally supervising their first use on the battlefield.
• After one such attack, his wife Clara Immewahr, herself a scientist, confronts him and later commits suicide. Haber leaves the following day for the front, deepening his portrayal as morally conflicted.
• Later, a pesticide developed at his institute (Zyklon A) is reformulated by the Nazis as Zyklon B—used in extermination camps.
• Discussion: Is the world better or worse because of Haber? Can the math of billions fed outweigh millions killed?
• Jad: “You gotta ask, is the world better with him or without him?” [1:16:20]
• Robert: “He does it with a kind of amoral athleticism… I would rather have scientists who carry doubt with them as they proceed.” [1:17:10]

IV. Shakespeare’s Villains and the Human Desire for Motive
[1:17:35–1:29:48]

• Interview with James Shapiro (Columbia), exploring the urge to explain “badness” through literature.
• In Titus Andronicus, even the most villainous character is given a human spark.
• The ultimate exception: Iago, in Othello—who refuses to give a reason for his evil.
  • “Demand me nothing. What you know, you know. From this time forth, I never will speak word.” — James Shapiro quoting Iago [1:25:13]
• The hosts discuss the discomfort of evil without motive—how the refusal of a why shakes moral order.

V. The Green River Killer: An Encounter with Meaningless Evil
[1:29:50–1:44:00]

• Reporter Aaron Scott and Jeff Jensen (whose father, Tom Jensen, led the Green River Killer investigation) detail detective interviews with serial killer Gary Leon Ridgway.
• Detectives attempt to use empathetic tactics to get Ridgeway to admit his crimes and motives.
• Most chilling moment:
  • Detective: “Why did you do this? Did you need to kill?”
    Ridgeway: “Yes, I did need to kill... I just needed to kill.” [1:39:38]
• Tom Jensen, emotionally shattered by the interaction, never talks about that day again.
• The hosts liken the search for a “why” behind evil to the story of Job—sometimes, there is no satisfying answer, only meaninglessness and chaos.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If any sizable fraction actually acted on their homicidal fantasies, the streets would be running red.” — David Buss [11:58]
• “91% of the men said yes. And 84% of the women said yes, I've thought about killing someone.” — David Buss [11:31]
• “The participants…they’re trying to do the right thing. They’re not doing something because they have to, they're doing it because they think they ought to. And that’s all the difference in the world.” — Alex Haslam [49:14]
• “When you’re enjoined to do something for the greater good, maybe ask yourself: What is greater and what is good?” — Alex Haslam [51:58]
• “Half of each of our bodies contains nitrogen from the Haber process.” — Sam Kean [53:13]
• “You gotta ask, is the world better with him or without him?” — Jad [1:16:20]
• “Demand me nothing. What you know, you know. From this time forth, I never will speak word.” — James Shapiro quoting Iago [1:25:13]
• “Yes, I did need to kill... I just needed to kill.” — Gary Ridgway [1:39:38]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:45] — David Buss and the universality of murder fantasies
• [11:31] — Survey results: “Have you ever thought about killing someone?”
• [15:45] — Introduction and reenactment of the Milgram experiment
• [29:00] — Ben Walker discusses Milgram in the context of Eichmann’s trial
• [41:50] — Milgram experiment variants: Conditions diminishing obedience
• [51:58] — Haslam’s take: Not blind obedience, but active belief
• [53:13] — Fritz Haber’s ammonia process: “Bread from air”
• [1:02:00] — Haber and chemical warfare; Clara’s condemnation and suicide
• [1:12:00] — Zyklon B and Haber's indirect legacy in the Holocaust
• [1:16:20] — “Is the world better with him or without him?”: Moral calculus
• [1:17:35] — Shakespeare’s villains, motives, and Iago’s silence
• [1:29:50] — The case of the Green River Killer and detective interviews
• [1:39:38] — “I just needed to kill”: Chilling lack of motive
• [1:42:30] — The search for meaning in evil; the story of Job

Conclusion Radiolab’s "The Bad Show" offers a riveting and unsettling meditation on evil in human nature—from fleeting, dark fantasies to historical horrors and unrepentant killers. The episode resists simple explanations, instead revealing that badness often springs not just from external orders or innate malice, but complex intersections of context, belief, self-justification, and sometimes, inscrutable voids where meaning fails. It is a show that confronts the listener with the complexity of morality, warning that even good intentions, certainty, and the absence of doubt can yield devastating consequences.

For further exploration:

• "The Green River Killer: A True Detective Story" by Jeff Jensen (graphic novel)
• "Contested Will" by James Shapiro (on Shakespeare)
• Original Milgram study archives (Yale University)