Radiolab: The Cathedral
Date: December 28, 2015
Hosts: Jad Abumrad, Robert Krulwich | Reporter: Shruti Pinamaneni
Featured Guests: Amy Green, Ryan Green
Episode Overview
Radiolab presents a deeply moving collaboration with Reply All, telling the story of Amy and Ryan Green and their journey through their young son Joel’s battle with terminal brain cancer. The episode follows how they coped with immense grief and uncertainty, ultimately channeling their experiences into an unconventional form: a video game called “That Dragon, Cancer.” The story explores the limitations of agency, the role of faith and hope, and the power of storytelling—both in life and through interactive media.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Meet the Greens and Joel’s Diagnosis
- [02:30] Shruti introduces Amy and Ryan Green, a young couple in Colorado with three sons, Caleb, Isaac, and Joel.
- Joel is diagnosed just before his first birthday with a rare, aggressive brain tumor (ATRT).
- Amy reflects on the dire odds (“It's a 50% chance of surviving just two years.” —Amy, [04:24]) and her initial disbelief at the treatment options.
2. Daily Life with Childhood Cancer
- [05:29] Description of the harsh realities—chemo, endless hospital stays, and the aimless hope that comes with treatment.
- Amy describes the emotional heaviness and her pivotal decision:
“I think I need to be all in. Like, I think I need to love him like mad. And I think we need to live our lives like he's gonna live.”
— Amy Green [05:59]
3. When Hope Feels Impossible: The Inspiration for the Game
- [07:14] A particularly hopeless hospital night prompts Ryan to compare the experience to a video game—where every action feels pointless and out of control.
- “You know, usually people come into a game trying to solve it. And I wonder if I could make this game where they couldn't, they would understand me and how I feel right now.”
— Shruti Pinamaneni paraphrasing Ryan Green [09:32]
4. A ‘Terrible’ Game Becomes a Calling
- Amy’s initial reaction is disbelief: “That’s terrible. That’s not a game. And no one will want to play that.” —Amy Green [09:53]
- Despite skepticism, Ryan is driven to create a game simulating the helplessness of that hospital night.
5. Reception and Validation
- [10:27] Ryan presents his early work at the Game Developers Conference.
- His authentic approach garners unexpected support from the “empathy game” community.
- “There’s two or three different people who want to fund my game.” —Reported by Shruti Pinamaneni [11:21]
6. Amy Experiences the Game
- Amy finally plays the “dehydration scene”; she is overwhelmed:
“I just lost it. And I was just crying and crying...it brought me back to that space in a much more real way than I thought that a video game could.”
—Amy Green [13:54] - The couple commits to finishing and releasing the game, naming it That Dragon, Cancer.
[18:56] Building the Game: Surreal Vignettes of Joy and Suffering
- The game alternates between simple daily joys and surreal depictions of illness—feeding ducks, floating with balloon-gloves, hospital waiting rooms slowly filling with water as bad news arrives.
- Cancer’s ever-present threat is creatively visualized, always encroaching.
[22:02] Living Beyond Expectation
- Joel's tumors repeatedly disappear and return, defying medical odds.
- Milestones once thought impossible—a first word, a step—are met with hope and spiritual conviction.
[23:59] The Last Night and Community Prayer
- [24:08] Community gathers for a night of prayer as Joel's health rapidly declines.
- “All we have is death here on this earth...the only hope we have is your resurrection, God.”
—Ryan Green [24:17] - “It’s the blind who see and the deaf who hear...God, I believe you could do all those things.”
—Amy Green [24:40] - Joel dies that night, March 13, 2014.
- Amy reflects on how hope changed their grieving process:
“Because we still believed that he could live, I feel like we didn’t go through all the processes of getting ready for him to die the way maybe you would if you were certain.”
—Amy Green [25:37]
[26:06] The Hardest Design Challenge: How to End the Game
- The Greens wrestle with translating death—life’s unfinished, unspeakable cathedral—into a game.
- Shruti describes the evolving “cathedral” scene:
- At first a hospital room, then a breathtaking cathedral incorporating elements of Joel’s anatomy, then morphing between light and darkness as Ryan struggles to find meaning.
- The balance between agency and inevitability becomes a metaphor for grief:
- “If they do it wrong, then they’ll feel as if Joel died because of them, and that’s terrible... So then he says, you know what? Scrap this whole thing.” —Shruti Pinamaneni [29:00]
- Lighting prayer candles triggers real prayers from Joel’s final night ([30:25]).
Memorable Visuals & Insights:
- “The cathedral to Ryan will always be unfinished.” —Shruti Pinamaneni [31:35]
- “This game is not him. It’s just an echo of him... It’s not even the best echo of him.”
—Ryan Green [31:06]
[31:55] Goodbye Scene: “Bubbles and Pancakes”
- A final, gentle scene lets the player spend an endless, sun-drenched moment with Joel on a picnic blanket surrounded by pancakes, a dog, and bubbles.
- The only choice: to stay as long as you want, and to leave when you’re ready.
- “That’s the choice you get at the end... to not stop until you’re ready to walk away.”
—Jad Abumrad [34:20] - “It’s not much of a choice.” —Robert Krulwich [34:28]
Notable Quotes & Timestamps
- “It’s a 50% chance of surviving just two years.” —Amy Green [04:24]
- “I think I need to be all in. Like, I think I need to love him like mad.” —Amy Green [05:59]
- “The only hope we have is your resurrection, God... that you redeem it.” —Ryan Green [24:17]
- “This game is not him. It’s just an echo of him.” —Ryan Green [31:06]
- “The cathedral to Ryan will always be unfinished.” —Shruti Pinamaneni [31:35]
- “That’s the choice you get at the end... to not stop until you’re ready to walk away.” —Jad Abumrad [34:20]
Structure & Flow of the Episode
- Introduction:
- Hosts set up the story, partnering with Reply All. [01:36–02:30]
- The Greens’ Story:
- Early meeting, family background, Joel’s diagnosis. [02:30–04:24]
- Treatment and Despair:
- Experience of chemo, heavy emotional toll, pivotal night. [04:24–08:26]
- Inspiration for a Game:
- Ryan’s gamified experience of helplessness, initial disbelief. [08:26–12:42]
- Creation and Reception:
- Game Developers Conference, empathy games scene, Amy’s changing perspective. [10:27–14:16]
- Building the Game:
- Surreal scenes blending reality and imagination, ever-present cancer. [18:56–22:02]
- Messy Miracles and Decline:
- Joel’s unexpected longevity, return and progression of disease, church prayer, his death. [22:02–25:37]
- Designing the End:
- Artistic struggle, the unfinished “cathedral,” accepting limits, integrating prayer. [26:06–31:35]
- Goodbye and Release:
- The moving “pancake and bubbles” scene. [31:55–34:20]
- Reflection and Credits:
- Hosts react, thank contributors, and end with credits. [34:20–36:14]
Tone and Style
- Reflective: Balances clinical and creative perspectives, giving space for both struggle and hope.
- Candid and Vulnerable: First-person testimonies, especially from Amy and Ryan, infuse the episode with honesty and emotional weight.
- Intimate: Inclusion of home video, actual game audio, prayers, and unguarded moments.
- Innovative: The meta-narrative of translating grief and faith into the unconventional vessel of a video game is both unusual and insightful.
Summary for New Listeners
The episode “The Cathedral” is a masterful exploration of love, loss, and creativity in the face of tragedy. It charts Amy and Ryan Green’s attempts to make sense of their son’s terminal cancer through a raw, unflinching personal lens, while also following their decision to memorialize Joel—and the very process of grieving—in a playable game that invites the participant to sit with the limits of agency.
Listeners are taken through the couple’s lived experience, from diagnosis and crisis to a community’s outpouring of prayer on Joel’s final night. As the game’s design evolves, it mirrors real-life ambiguity: sometimes bright and whimsical, sometimes overwhelmed by darkness and impossibility. The cathedral that Ryan builds in-game becomes a metaphor for not just Joel’s life, but for any human effort to contain the uncontainable.
The episode closes on a poignant interactive moment: the realization that sometimes the only choice is being present with love and stepping away when you’re ready. This extraordinary story lingers as both testimony and touchstone—an invitation to reflect on how we process and remember love, loss, and hope.