The Curious Case of the Russian Flash Mob at the West Palm Beach Cheesecake Factory

Summary

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Radiolab – "The Curious Case of the Russian Flash Mob at the West Palm Beach Cheesecake Factory"

Date: February 20, 2018
Host: Jad Abumrad (with Simon Adler, Annie McEwen, and others)
Produced by: WNYC Studios

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Episode Overview

In this Radiolab episode, the team investigates the strange true story behind a peculiar 2016 political flash mob outside a Cheesecake Factory in West Palm Beach, Florida—later revealed to have been orchestrated by Russian operatives. Following recent U.S. indictments against Russian nationals accused of "information warfare," Radiolab dives into how Russian disinformation campaigns targeted Americans, how unwitting citizens became participants, and how those involved reckon with these revelations. The episode features in-depth interviews with former Russian “troll factory” worker Vitaly Bespalov and several Americans who participated in the Florida flash mob, exploring motives, tactics, and the personal fallout from these global manipulations.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Background: Russian Indictments and Disinformation

[00:49-02:22]

• Jad Abumrad contextualizes the episode around Robert Mueller's indictments of Russian nationals for orchestrating information warfare in the U.S. during the 2016 election.

• Quote:
  “Unless you have been living under a rock for the past three days, you've probably heard that the special counsel, Robert Mueller... has handed down some indictments.” (Jad Abumrad, 01:07)

• The central questions: Who are the agents behind these efforts? Who got manipulated? How do they feel now?

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2. Inside the Russian Troll Factory

[02:24-17:50]

Interview with Vitaly Bespalov (via Charles Mains)

• Origins: Bespalov, from Siberia, aspired to be a journalist but found work at the Internet Research Agency (IRA) in St. Petersburg after struggling to find jobs.

• Quote:
  “He refers to journalists as like superheroes or Batman, you know?” (Jad Abumrad, 04:20)

• The Job:

  • Describes a strict, silent office environment.
  • Initially hired to produce “original” articles for fake Ukrainian news sites during the 2014 Ukraine crisis.
  • Tasked with rewriting existing stories to shift blame, obscure facts, and serve propaganda goals (e.g., omitting that pro-Russian troops existed).

• Workplace Structure:

  • Floors divided by function: fake news writers, meme creators, blog writers, and comment trolls.
  • Quote:
    “Fourth floor, you'd find the YouTube and Facebook commenting trolls along with the cafeteria.” (Jad Abumrad, 12:47)

• Ethical Dilemmas:

  • Bespalov considered going undercover, hoping for an exposé, but felt isolated and eventually quit.
  • Russians working there described as either activists, clock-punchers, or people just needing a decent paycheck.
  • His article about IRA made no splash in Russia but gained traction after U.S. media took up the story post-2016.

• Media Backlash:

  • Russian TV publicly humiliated Bespalov, mining his social media and calling him a freak.
  • Quote:
    “It's just an absolute public flogging. A total public humiliation.” (Simon Adler, 16:40)

• Transition to U.S. Operations:

  • By 2014, Bespalov noticed IRA hiring for English language work.
  • In 2016, the IRA expanded with “translator projects” targeting the U.S., recruiting Americans to stage rallies and distribute content—often without their knowledge of Russian involvement.

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3. The Florida Flash Mob: How Real Americans Got Involved

[23:55-39:00]

Interviews with Flash Mob Participants

Key Characters:

• Anne Marie (Ann): Trump supporter, real estate agent, recruited on Twitter.
• Harry Miller: Retired, popular pro-Trump Twitter user.
• Greg: Anne's friend, played Bill Clinton.

What Happened:

• In August 2016, Anne and Harry are recruited by supposed “UCLA students” (actually Russian agents using fabricated identities "Josh" and "Matt") to organize a pro-Trump flash mob outside a Cheesecake Factory.

• Asked to dress as Hillary and Bill Clinton, put in a cage, and chant "lock her up”—performance art for social media, with every detail choreographed and paid for by the "organizers."

• Money came from out of the country, payments routed through a check-cashing service.

• Quote:
  “He was asking me about making a trailer with a jail type of thing on it... a Hillary Clinton impersonator and a Bill Clinton impersonator. And I want you to put them in the cage like you're putting them in jail. And you should do this outside so lots of people can see you...” (Harry Miller, 27:30)

The Flash Mob Itself:

• The event unfolds as staged, with Anne in a Hillary mask, Greg as Bill Clinton, outside the Cheesecake Factory.
• Videos and photos are posted online, gaining over 500,000 views in a day.

Realizations and Aftermath:

• Both Anne and Harry were later contacted by the FBI, only learning after the fact they'd been part of a Russian operation.

• Quote:
  “The FBI came here to talk to me about it. ... The young guy was kind of unexperienced. He was cuter than Christian Bale, too, cuter than Christian Bale, the young guy.” (Anne Marie, 32:50)

• Their reactions diverge:

  • Anne refuses to see herself as “unwitting”—“I'm the one whose idea was to put the date of Benghazi on that prison uniform. I'm not unwitting, and I'm not a Russian. I'm an American.” (Anne Marie, 34:18)

  • Greg, the Bill Clinton impersonator, expresses deep discomfort and regret:
    “Well, had I known that I was working for the Russians, I would have asked for a lot more money.” (Greg, 37:34)
    “...I might have had a little bit of influence on Donald Trump being elected. And I think that was a mistake for America.” (Greg, 37:46)

  • Harry is less troubled, finding the event laughable, but admits feeling used:
    “I find it a little irritating. Nobody likes to be used. ... Nah, I’m pissed as shit.” (Harry, 38:39)

• Explores the irony: The local, homegrown nature of America's polarization made such manipulation possible. As Harry puts it:
  “What's frustrating is the fact that it wasn't actually Russia that started the fire. They were just blowing on it and maybe making it a little worse. But the truly disheartening thing is the fact that the fire was ignited here without Russia.” (Jad and Harry, 39:49–40:07)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “To be this kind of alternative character in Siberia is not an easy thing.”
  — Simon Adler on Vitaly Bespalov's youth (03:44)

• “And so he gets this idea that, you know what, maybe I've got a scoop here. Maybe I can do an investigation.”
  — Simon Adler, describing Bespalov's decision to go undercover (10:56)

• “It was like just mopping a floor, or taking out the trash.”
  — Simon Adler, on coworkers’ attitudes in the troll factory (13:18)

• "NBC, NBC, the bully... from that moment on, [Vitaly] became the go-to guy..."
  — Jad Abumrad, on Bespalov's role as a whistleblower in Western media (15:04)

• "No, I wasn't used as a puppet."
  — Anne Marie, dismissing the idea she was unwittingly used by Russians (33:31)

• “Had I known that I was working for the Russians, I would have asked for a lot more money... I think that was a mistake for America.”
  — Greg, the Bill Clinton impersonator (37:34, 37:46)

---

Timestamps for Significant Sections

• 00:49-02:22: Introduction & context: Mueller’s indictments; framing the investigation
• 02:24-17:50: Interview with Vitaly Bespalov—inside the Internet Research Agency
• 17:50-23:55: Shift to U.S.: How Russian operations began targeting Americans
• 23:55-39:00: The Florida flash mob—how real Americans staged a Russian-orchestrated protest
• 32:50: Anne Marie describes her FBI interview
• 37:34-39:49: Greg and Harry share their discomfort/regret about being manipulated
• 39:49-40:07: Summary reflection on the roots of American polarization

---

Tone & Style

• The episode mixes Radiolab’s trademark investigative rigor, personal storytelling, and wry humor.
• Jad and Simon push for honest, sometimes uncomfortable reflection from their subjects, often pausing to clarify and humanize what could otherwise be an abstract issue.

---

Conclusion

Radiolab’s delve into the West Palm Beach flash mob untangles how global propaganda became local, how everyday Americans became foot soldiers in an information war, and how our own political divisions make such manipulation possible. The participants’ responses—ranging from defiant pride to pained regret—underscore the complexity of “unwitting” collaboration in the digital age.

---

Summary compiled with direct quotations, accurate attribution, and topic continuity for clarity and completeness. Timestamps provided for reference to podcast sections most relevant to the core narrative.

Transcript

[Jad Abumrad]

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[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

Okay.

[Harry Miller]

All right. Okay. All right.

[Jad Abumrad]

You're listening to Radiolab Radio from wnyc.

[Jad Abumrad (Host)]

Hey, this is JAD from Radiolab. So we were not planning on releasing a podcast today, but then Friday happened.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

The federal government tonight outlining an elaborate, expensive and extraordinary assault on US Democracy.

[Jad Abumrad]

Thirteen Russian nationals and three Russian companies.

[LifeLock Advertiser]

Accused of a massive effort.

[Jad Abumrad (Host)]

Unless you have been living under a rock for the past three days, you've probably heard that the special counsel, Robert Mueller, guy that President Trump keeps accusing of being engaged in a witch hunt, he has handed down some indictments.

[Jad Abumrad]

The defendants allegedly conducted what they called information warfare against the United States.

[Harry Miller]

They say the Russians were right here.

[Jad Abumrad]

In the US Too.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

The indictment says the Russians tried to create chaos, going so far as to try traveled to key states.

[Simon Adler (Producer/Reporter)]

The Russians allegedly sent operatives to America traveling throughout nine states.

[Jad Abumrad (Host)]

Now, the picture that you get from the indictment is that there was this sort of like shadowy network of Russian nationals that had infiltrated the country with the idea of sowing chaos in the run up to the 2016 election. And we just sort of wondered very simply, like, who are these Russians and who are these Americans that were manipulated? How did it, how did it work? How do they feel about things now? So what we decided to do for this podcast, just because we were curious and just because, you know, it's fun for a podcast like ours to try and do fast turnaround stuff on occasion. We decided to see what we could find out. Producer Simon Adler takes it from here.

[Jad Abumrad]

Hey, Charles, are you there?

[Simon Adler (Producer/Reporter)]

Good. Hey, how you doing, Simon?

[Jad Abumrad]

I'm doing all right. A little sleepy, but other than that, I'm good. So not too long ago, I got in touch with this radio producer, reporter based in Moscow by the name of Charles Mains. Do you want to do video?

[Simon Adler (Producer/Reporter)]

Just say hello?

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah, that'd be great. I'm in sort of my pajamas, but.

[Simon Adler (Producer/Reporter)]

Yeah, yeah, that's fine. That's my pajamas.

[Jad Abumrad]

It was like three in the morning New York time. But anyways, the reason I got in touch with him was to have him help Facilitate and interpret an interview with this guy.

[LifeLock Advertiser]

Hi, my name is Vitaly.

[Jad Abumrad (Host)]

I Spalov.

[LifeLock Advertiser]

I'm from Russia, from St. Saints Petersburg. I'm sorry, I'm very bad. Speak English.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, no, don't worry about it. That's what we got Charles for.

[LifeLock Advertiser]

Yes, yes, yes, thank you, Charles.

[Harry Miller]

Translating.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay, great.

[Jad Abumrad (Host)]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

So let's just start with, like, where are you from originally? I'm just curious, like, a little bit about who you are.

[Simon Adler (Producer/Reporter)]

Well, so Vitaly Bispalev, he's a kid from a small town in Siberia, a.

[Jad Abumrad]

Small town near Kazakhstan. And he said from an early age it was clear that he just really didn't fit in up there. He had blue hair for a time, dressed like a goth.

[Simon Adler (Producer/Reporter)]

And to be this kind of alternative character in Siberia is not an easy thing. I mean, he would tell these stories about walking down the street, kind of tough guys with short haircuts. They're calling him faggot. And so when he gets a chance to get out, he does.

[Jad Abumrad]

He moves to St. Petersburg, considered one of the most liberal cities in Russia. And he moved there not looking for just any job, but specifically to be a journalist, which he really felt was his calling.

[LifeLock Advertiser]

Superhero.

[Jad Abumrad]

He refers to journalists as like superheroes or Batman, you know?

[Simon Adler (Producer/Reporter)]

So he heads to St. Petersburg and he thinks he's all set up. He's got a job with a local website. He's gonna do some editing for them, maybe a little writing. But right away, within short order, I believe the is their business dried up and so did the newspaper. And suddenly Vitali is out of the job. And so it's kind of a crisis moment. So he starts looking around and he's. As he describes it, he gets up every day, he starts sending out all these resumes, doing searches. Just find anybody to who will do anything that will let him use his writing skills, just trying to find something to do with text.

[Jad Abumrad]

Until finally, after almost a month of.

[Simon Adler (Producer/Reporter)]

This, he comes across this one ad that it's not really clear what they're offering or who's offering it, but it mentions that there's some copy editing to be done, some writing, and the pay scale seems a lot higher. They're promising double the money that most people are offered for working in journalism in Russia. And right away he just thought this was just weird. But of course he's interested. How could he not be? And so he places a call.

[Jad Abumrad]

Now, it's worth noting, everything that is about to happen to Vitaly. We weren't able to fact check 100%. But that being said, it does line up squarely with what others have reported. So anyway, fast forward a couple days. He ends up having an interview and they offer him the job, which he accepts, all the while still not really knowing what the heck it is he.

[Simon Adler (Producer/Reporter)]

Will be doing exactly. It's just not really clear what it is.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay, so tell me about that first day. Like.

[Simon Adler (Producer/Reporter)]

He goes in. He describes initially just going into the. Entering into the foyer of the building, into the entrance.

[Jad Abumrad]

The building itself is cement, four stories tall, and the security is oddly strict. Like, when he went up to them, they required him to hand over a bunch of documents like his passport, just to get in.

[Simon Adler (Producer/Reporter)]

That's his first impression.

[Jad Abumrad]

Eventually, his boss shows up, this woman named Ann. She walks him down the halls and he said the whole place had like the feel of a hospital.

[Simon Adler (Producer/Reporter)]

Long corridors with little rooms to the left and right, people behind keyboards, working on computers.

[Jad Abumrad]

And it's almost completely silent except for the tapping of fingers on keys. Anyway, eventually they duck into a room. Anna shows him his desk, and this is finally when he gets a sense of what exactly is going on. Anna sits him down, says, we're doing news about Ukraine.

[Simon Adler (Producer/Reporter)]

We just want you to write articles. It was 20 articles a day he had to do sort of massage the text for.

[Jad Abumrad]

But the thing is, these didn't have to be brand new articles, but instead.

[Simon Adler (Producer/Reporter)]

He was told essentially, take this article that's already been written, somebody else's article, and add to it and then change the content so it's 70% original.

[Jad Abumrad]

So what's important to know here is this was 2014, and Ukraine was in the early days of war.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

The apocalyptic scene in central Kiev tonight.

[Simon Adler (Producer/Reporter)]

This morning, Kiev again awoke to the sound of gunfire.

[Jad Abumrad]

A civil war that Russia wanted to influence the outcome of. And to do so, they started experimenting with this new form of propaganda.

[Simon Adler (Producer/Reporter)]

That's right. What you saw was this campaign that was going on two fronts. On the one hand, you had state media, sort of pro government media here.

[Jad Abumrad]

Being broadcast from Russia into Ukraine, spinning the narrative for those watching it.

[Simon Adler (Producer/Reporter)]

But then you have a certain amount of the population that perhaps doesn't watch state media. And this is where you get into this effort to kind of plug the holes in this story online.

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

And this.

[Jad Abumrad]

Is what Vitaly had been.

[Simon Adler (Producer/Reporter)]

Hired to do to, you know, to seal that story. So, you know, they told him to take an article that was about Ukraine, for example.

[Jad Abumrad]

According to Vitaly, there was an incident in which a group of pro Russian rebels had taken over a school in Ukraine, essentially holding the kids hostage. And when the pro Ukrainian soldiers, when they. When they stormed the school, children died. Now, this actually happened and was covered by the Ukrainian media.

[Simon Adler (Producer/Reporter)]

But Anna, as I recall, her name is Anna. Vitaly's boss says, like, look, your goal.

[Jad Abumrad]

Is to take this real news story and rewrite it, leaving out the fact that there were ever any pro Russian troops there, creating the impression that the pro Ukrainian troops had stormed the school and massacred these children for no reason at all. And so once he had rewritten this article and made these small changes.

[Simon Adler (Producer/Reporter)]

It would create a website with a UA address. This is a Ukraine address.

[Jad Abumrad]

A site that looked like a local.

[Simon Adler (Producer/Reporter)]

Online Ukrainian newspaper, ostensibly written by Ukrainians for a Ukrainian audience.

[Jad Abumrad]

So he's being asked to write about Ukraine as if he was writing from Ukraine.

[Simon Adler (Producer/Reporter)]

Yes, exactly. Exactly. And Vitaly, the way he describes it, while he's working on his newspapers involving events in Ukraine, pretending to be a Ukrainian journalist, he's citing blogs that are written ostensibly by Ukrainians, and he's pretty sure that blogger is upstairs in the next level up inside this building in St. Petersburg. So it's a feedback loop.

[Jad Abumrad]

Well, and so I'm presuming on day one, you've shown up there with these high minded journalistic ideals, and you have to realize that you've gotten yourself into something that in no way lives up to those ideals. How on earth did that feel?

[Simon Adler (Producer/Reporter)]

This is where he gets this really important moment where he's trying to decide what to do. He says to himself that he had kind of two thoughts, which is, you know, a, you get out of there and never come back, or B, you do go back and you find out more what's going on there. And he gets this idea that, you know what, maybe I've got a scoop here. Maybe I can do an investigation.

[Jad Abumrad (Host)]

He sort of assigned himself to be kind of an undercover agent.

[Simon Adler (Producer/Reporter)]

Exactly.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay, just to zoom out here for a second, the job that Vitaly had taken was with an organization known as the Internet Research Agency. The Internet Research Agency. Internet Research Agency. The Internet Research Agency, a shadowy Russian organization which we've heard so much about in these past 72 hours. It's a private company established in 2013 by a Putin ally named Yevgeny Prigozhin.

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

Yevgeny Prigozhin, a Russian businessman with close.

[Jad Abumrad]

Ties to Vladimir Putin, who, along with being the bearer of a rather strange nickname dubbed Chef to President Vladimir Putin, he's also one of the Russian nationals mentioned in the Mueller indictment. Now, in the early days when Vitaly was working there, it was his impression that there were roughly a couple hundred people working at the Internet Research Agency. But at its peak, the organization grew to employ as many as 1,000 people with an annual budget of millions of dollars, headed by a management group and arranged into departments including graphics, search engine optimization, information technology and finance departments. Now, as Vitaly told us, it was hard to know exactly what happened in this place because everyone was so siloed. But over his time there, he was able to make sense of some of it. The first floor was filled with people just like Vitaly writing fake articles for fake sites. Second floor was known as the social media department. And these folks were responsible for pumping out memes like the one where Hillary Clinton is shaking hands with the devil. The third floor was filled with people writing fake blogs, the same blogs that Vitaly would pull quotes from. And on the fourth floor, you'd find the YouTube and Facebook commenting trolls along with the cafeteria.

[LifeLock Advertiser]

Ukraine 2. Ukraine 1. Ukraine 1.

[Simon Adler (Producer/Reporter)]

This was a 247 operation. They never stopped making news, they never stopped generating content.

[Jad Abumrad]

Well, and who were your co workers?

[Simon Adler (Producer/Reporter)]

There were quite a few people from other towns of Russia that moved to St. Petersburg. There were some people he said were frankly activists in the opposition. But there were a lot of people that they check in, they check out for work, they just punch the clock. And for them it was just like mopping a floor or taking out the trash.

[Jad Abumrad]

Did you feel some guilt or misgivings about what you were doing?

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

No.

[Simon Adler (Producer/Reporter)]

He describes being really stressed out during this whole period because while he was, you know, on the one hand, I suppose he's gathering good material for what will hopefully be some, you know, grand expose that he'll write. On the other hand, he just felt like he was just living this lie.

[Jad Abumrad]

Eventually, after three and a half months, Vitaly did quit. And as he tells it, he had enough and just didn't feel like he could learn anything else. And so with his months of research, he went on to write an article in Russia that really didn't make a splash at all, in part because the Internet recently research agency was already a pretty well known organization in Russia at that time. Essentially, other journalists had just beaten him to the punch. But then, In the wake of the 2016 election, with accusations of Russian meddling beginning to swirl, tonight, a look inside.

[NBC Reporter/Molly Webster (Advertiser)]

Russia's disinformation campaign from 26 year old Vitaly Bespilov.

[Jad Abumrad]

The American, American media took notice and Vitaly got a call from NBC. Is this it? This is the building? Yes, yes, yes, yes, of course, the troll factory. With his eyebrow pierced and a pink sweater on, Vitaly answered questions for this brief evening news segment.

[NBC Reporter/Molly Webster (Advertiser)]

Did you create fake accounts? Yes, he says. So you believe that this operation was.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

Backed by the Kremlin?

[LifeLock Advertiser]

Absolutely.

[NBC Reporter/Molly Webster (Advertiser)]

Absolutely, he says Vespilarov also believes it. It's still up and running. The Kremlin denies it, suggesting reports the factory even existed might be fake.

[Jad Abumrad]

NBC. NBC, the bully. And from that moment on, he really became the go to guy if you wanted to talk to somebody who had worked inside. Journalists from all over the world started reaching out to him, asking for interviews or comments. And keep in mind, these were all international journalists, none of them Russian. Until one day, not long after all this.

[Simon Adler (Producer/Reporter)]

Yeah, so he gets a call from this national television channel saying basically, in an hour we're going to run a story about you and we really want you to come on our talk show. And he said, look, I'm busy, I'm working, I can't do it. And so they run with this piece.

[Jad Abumrad]

In this TV studio on this set that looked like a cross between sort of the Family Feud and an evening news broadcast. The hosts just start kicking Vitaly apart and flashing images of him on this giant screen behind them.

[Simon Adler (Producer/Reporter)]

And what they've got is they kind of mine his online Persona. They've got him hanging out in a club making and funny faces at the camera. They start kind of digging through his political views, the fact that he's a supporter of the liberal opposition, you know, and, and. And they just, you know, make him out to be this kind of freak. And they're all laughing at him. And, you know, he's. It's just. It's just an absolute public flogging. A total public humiliation.

[Harry Miller]

Wow.

[Jad Abumrad]

Well, he got caught in his own little misinformation loop there at the end.

[Simon Adler (Producer/Reporter)]

Yeah, yeah, that's right. You know, what's interesting is Vitaly, you know, the way he describes it is that, you know, in some ways when he was there, it was. They were just trying to figure out the mechanisms. It was getting more sophisticated. And as he's leaving, his time is ending at the Internet Research Agency. He says that there was just about this time he started seeing these posts for vacancies in other languages, including English.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

So.

[Simon Adler (Producer/Reporter)]

So in a way for him, it's this moment where he sees the troll farm, the troll factory, suddenly turning outward.

[Jad Abumrad]

Well, now, three years later, we know a bit more about this English initiative. In 2014, the company established a translator project focused on the United States. In July of 2016, more than 80 employees were assigned to the translator project. And many of those employees apparently took some of the moves from their Ukraine infowar playbook and used them pointed them at the us. The Russians also recruited and paid real Americans to engage in political activities, promote political campaigns, and stage political rallies. The defendants and their co conspirators pretended to be grassroots activists. In fact, I spoke to one reporter who told me about this incident in Houston when there were two protests happening at the same time. On one side of the street a white nationalist protest and on the other a group of Americans for Muslims. Turns out both protests were covertly organized by Russians connected to the Internet Research Agency. According to the indictment, the Americans did not know that they were communicating with Russians. And it was this phrase out of all of the ludicrous revelations of the indictment that really got us thinking. Who were these unknowing Americans? How did they end up at these fake protests and how do they think about it now? So producer Annie McKeown and I, we started calling around and we found three people at the center of one of the more famous fake protests mentioned in the indictment, the so called Florida Flash Mob.

[Jad Abumrad (Host)]

We'll hear all about that after the break. Mrs. Radiolab will continue in a moment.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

Hi there, this is Kirsten recording from Orlando, Florida. Radiolab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan foundation, enhancing public understanding of of science and technology in the modern world. More information about [e-mail]. radiolab is supported by Built Nobody wants to pay rent. But if you have to, Bilt works to make it more worthwhile. By paying rent. Through Built, you can earn flexible points that can be redeemed toward hundreds of hotels and airlines, a future rent payment, your next Lyft ride, and more. But it doesn't stop there. You can dine out at your favorite local restaurants and earn additional points, get VIP treatment at certain fitness studios, and enjoy exclusive experiences just for Bilt members. Every month, earn points on rent and around your neighborhood, wherever you call home, by going to joinbuilt.com Radiolab that's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T.com Radiolab.

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[NBC Reporter/Molly Webster (Advertiser)]

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[Jad Abumrad (Host)]

This is Radiolab. I'm Jad Abumrad. So after those indictments came down against the three Russian companies and 13 Russian nationals who are accused of, you know, creating fake protests across the country, our producers Simon adler and Annie McEwen, got interested to try and locate some people who had gone to these protests and maybe unwittingly took part in what was a covert Russian operation. And they managed to find three people.

[Jad Abumrad]

All right, you can hear me?

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

Yes, I can hear you fine.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

First up, a woman named Ann Marie.

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

Margaret Thomas, who lives in Florida. I live in Jupiter, Florida.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

Currently, Ann is in her 50s. She works as a real estate agent and also.

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

O'. Shannondo. I long to see you and hear you. Rolling with all a singer.

[Jad Abumrad]

Beautiful.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

She's also a huge Trump fan, very active on Twitter. And in early August 2016, she was contacted first on Twitter, then over the.

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

Phone by two guys, Joshua and Matt, UCLA students. They said they were. They were working with Hollywood producers Matt and Josh.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

These are two people from Hollywood, probably.

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

The film school, right? I don't know. They didn't me that much information.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

But on the phone, Anne thought Joshua's voice sounded familiar.

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

And I better not. I shouldn't say who I think it is.

[Jad Abumrad]

Who did you think it was? Come on, just. Yeah, I'm really curious.

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

Who do I think it is? John Christopher.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

Who's that?

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah, who's John Christopher?

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

His real. His stage name is Johnny.

[Harry Miller]

Huh?

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

Johnny the musician.

[Jad Abumrad (Host)]

Wait, this is Janni, the, like, orchestra, New age piano God guy?

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah, but I think she's just guessing. Like, there's no actual evidence linking Yanni to any of this.

[Jad Abumrad]

What was the organization they were working with?

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

This was the March for Trump group, and they were a grassroots organization, started in the United States, Texas and California.

[Jad Abumrad]

What did they ask you or what did they say when they contacted you?

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

Well, they said they were wanting to do free rallies and a. Hollywood people wanted to hire. They actually want to hire three actors. One to play Trump, one to play Bill Clinton, and one to play Hillary.

[Jad Abumrad]

Interesting.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

They basically told her that they wanted her to do this, like, performance art, theater protest type thing. Now, at the same time, she was talking to these guys on the other side of Palm Beach County.

[Harry Miller]

I'm Harry Miller, I'm retired. I'm active on Twitter to a point.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

Another Trump fan guy by the name of Harry Miller, who had a pretty.

[Harry Miller]

Big following, 60, 70,000 someone in there.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

But he also got contacted on Twitter and over the phone, there was a.

[Harry Miller]

Conversation about the Desire to put on a. Something like a flash mob or something supporting Donald Trump.

[Jad Abumrad]

Sorry, who was it that contacted you?

[Harry Miller]

I believe his name was Matt.

[Jad Abumrad]

What did Matt say in his original sort of communication?

[Harry Miller]

This is extremely paraphrased because I don't have a distinct memory of all of it. And initially I was very suspect of him. And the reason I was suspect is because he had a strong accent and at the time there was a lot of commotion about Muslims and I thought he was a Muslim of some kind and was trying to set something up.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

And what did his voice sound like?

[Harry Miller]

It wasn't like you, you know, or an American, you know, with articulate. It was, it was broken.

[Jad Abumrad]

Well, and so he, he said he wanted a flash mob. And what did he say he wanted you to do?

[Harry Miller]

He was asking me about making a trailer with a jail type of thing on it.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

Essentially, the guy with the accent told him, I want you to stage an event where you have a cage. And you're gonna need to build this cage, but you're gonna have this cage. And at the event there will be a Hillary Clinton impersonator and a Bill Clinton impersonator. And I want you to put them in the cage like you're putting them in jail. And you should do this outside so that lots of people can see you and they can chant, lock her up, Lock her up. And you should take lots of photos and lots of videos and you should send them to us.

[Harry Miller]

And I did eventually say yes because he had an elaborate wedge website and he told me, as part of a big group of people. Do you remember the name of the website being Patriotic? It's dismantled according to the FBI now. In fact, I tried to pull it up. I can't get it either. What was odd is they insisted on paying me.

[Jad Abumrad]

How did they end up paying for it?

[Harry Miller]

They sent me to a check cashing place.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

And how much money was it?

[Harry Miller]

I found an estimate and I had written an estimate around $505 for it. But it did come from out of the country. I do recall that.

[Jad Abumrad]

Can you describe what this once the construction was complete, what your truck looked like?

[Harry Miller]

Yeah, I have an F350 Ford pickup truck.

[Jad Abumrad]

Big truck.

[Harry Miller]

Yeah. And I built a chain link fence, three sides and then one side with a gate. And on the four corners I had American flags, of course. And there was a lot of talk about who was going to go in the cage. And he. And he says, oh, well, we'll hire some actors.

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

No one would play Trump. No one would play him.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

Anne says the Two, quote, UCLA guys suggested that she play Hillary, and she agreed.

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

And I made the costume. I made the costume from a nurse's outfit, and on the back it said inmate. I went to the Hollywood Mask store and I bought a full head mask of Hillary.

[Jad Abumrad]

And so what were like, you're told to. What were you told? Like, show up at this place at this time, at this date, and you just did it.

[Harry Miller]

I don't know if you know Palm beach, but it was City place in front of Cheesecake Factories where this happened.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

Harry was told to show up August 20, 1pm Outside the cheesecake Factory. That's where this was gonna go down.

[Harry Miller]

Boy. That was another thing. I kept asking him, are you gonna be there? Who's gonna run this thing? Where do I go? Oh, no, you just go to Hidden Place. I don't know.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

So he shows up in front of the Cheesecake Factory with his truck with a big cage he'd built on the back. And sure enough, there were people there, Including Anne, dressed up as Hillary Clinton.

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

We were given a script.

[Jad Abumrad]

What were your lines? Do you remember?

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

Let me see. Well, we were. I was supposed to talk about my computer tablet and my emails. And then I was supposed to tell.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

She was there with her very good friend Greg, who she convinced to be the Bill Clinton impersonator.

[Harry Miller]

I sort of needed the money at the time.

[Jad Abumrad]

So what did you do, Greg, to get to prepare to play the part of Bill Clinton?

[Harry Miller]

I had to shave.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

You had to shave?

[Jad Abumrad]

Do you normally have, like a mustache or something?

[Harry Miller]

I shaved once back in the 70s. Then I shaved again with when Jerry Garcia died. And then I shaved when I had to play Bill Clinton.

[Jad Abumrad]

Wait, you shaved like, three times in your life?

[Harry Miller]

That's about it.

[Jad Abumrad]

How did it feel to be in this cage along with Anne and be like this sort of strange actor in this moving play?

[Harry Miller]

Well, first off, it was hot and I was in a dark blue suit and it was August and it's Florida, So it's like 94 degrees. And all I could think of was I wanted a beer.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

That makes sense.

[Harry Miller]

And I just wanted it to be over.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

So you didn't have very much fun?

[Harry Miller]

No, it wasn't a whole lot of fun. It would just work.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

Right? Was Annie having fun?

[Harry Miller]

Well, yeah, I guess she was.

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

Bill was supposed to find a lady that would be in, like, standing around like a newslady and try to flirt with her.

[Harry Miller]

Hey, Bill, don't look now, but I.

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

Just seen Monica and then they put us in jail.

[Jad Abumrad]

She was in the State Department and.

[Harry Miller]

They Sat in the cage for a while.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

What you see in the Facebook Live video is a few dozen people in the parking lot outside the Cheesecake Factory. They're just standing around the cage with Annie inside of it, who's pretending to be sad about being locked up.

[Harry Miller]

She was pretty good. She could have been a hackress. You know, she's looking exasperated and. And all that. We spent a day doing that, took a lot of pictures, had a good time.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

Pictures, of course, ended up on social media. And according to Harry, that thing on.

[Harry Miller]

Twitter got over 500,000 hits in 24 hours.

[Jad Abumrad]

You know, you're aware that much of the mainstream media at the moment is reporting that this was a Russian. Like, how does it make you feel that there's now this possibility that you were.

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

Oh, yeah, I was. The FBI came here to talk to me about it. Okay.

[Jad Abumrad]

When did you speak with the FBI?

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

Oh, they came to my house.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah. How long ago?

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

Last week.

[Jad Abumrad]

What did they ask you?

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

Well, they discussed with me pretty much what you were discussing with me, but not in as much depth as you did. The young guy was kind of unexperienced. He was cuter than Christian Bale, too. Cuter than Christian Bale, the young guy.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

And we reached out to the FBI. They responded with no comment.

[Jad Abumrad]

Are you concerned that you may be part like that you may have been used as a puppet by people in St. Petersburg?

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

No, I wasn't used as a puppet.

[Jad Abumrad]

But would you have done it had they not reached out to you in the first place?

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

Well, I wanted to help Trump, but.

[Jad Abumrad]

This is a situation where our own federal government is telling you that this has essentially become an interstate conflict where Russia intentionally manipulated people. Do you find that troubling?

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

Well, we're not all that stupid. Harry Miller and me and his wife, veterans. No, we're not that stupid. You know, this whole thing's being investigated, and I'm, like, known as the unwitting real American.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

So she's referring to a word that Rod Rosenstein used in the press conference when he announced these indictments. He said that these Russians, they established.

[Jad Abumrad]

Social media pages and groups to communicate with unwitting Americans.

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

Unwitting. I'm the one whose idea was to put the date of Benghazi on that prison uniform. I'm not unwitting, and I'm not a Russian. I'm an American. And I decided that I didn't want to vote for Hillary.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah, and I guess I'm not saying you're stupid at all. I think what's interesting here is I don't think you or Greg north or Harry Miller, I think that you all had really good intentions, that you believed in this man and you wanted to go out and support him. And I think what gets complicated here now is we find out that even though you supported this man and maybe in the end of the day you helped him win, that there was some nefarious work going on behind the scenes that led you to do this. And I would have complicated feelings about that. And I'm just trying to figure out if you do or don't.

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

No, because I did not believe that it'd be the case for the people that I dealt with. I did not think it was a Russian movement.

[Jad Abumrad]

I've got an article up here in front of me, and in the indictment they refer to Matt Skiber, who is, I think, the Hollywood man that you talked to. They refer to him as an.

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

From Texas. And he went to ucla.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay, Excuse me.

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

And he was involved to a certain point, and then he said he was going home.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah, I'm looking at a document right here saying that Matt Skiber is an invented person.

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

Well, maybe that's an invented name, but I. He was a young guy. He sounded like what he said he was. Maybe he did give me a bogus name.

[Jad Abumrad]

But you don't believe he was working for Russia?

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

Well, I don't know. Because if he lied about his name, who knows? That's what he told me. He said his name was Matt and he was used to allies, too. And the email that I had was this.

[Jad Abumrad]

Josh Milton, I'll let you know that Josh Milton, they're saying is also a made up person.

[Ann Marie (Florida Flash Mob Participant)]

But I might be wrong, but I'm not usually wrong.

[Harry Miller]

I think it's hilarious, I really do. Because then obviously what happened from what I gather from this is I was the one dealing with the Russians, not Trump. How did, how about that one?

[Jad Abumrad]

What.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

What do you think about that? How does it make you feel?

[Harry Miller]

Because, you know, I, you know, I, I don't think I'm stupid, but I don't see a real motive here on how this could change any votes. And they're claiming it disrupted the, the election. Where does this interfere with our elections? I don't know. I don't know how that could be. I really. But again, had they not contacted me, I never in my whole life been up there with a cage on that corner saying, lock her up.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

And Harry says he understands that what the invisible men on the other end of the phone seem to want was to create a visual stunt One that they could then take on the road.

[Harry Miller]

They wanted me to go to New York.

[Jad Abumrad (Host)]

Oh, they did?

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

They wanted you to bring the cage to New York?

[Harry Miller]

Yeah, I told him I would, too. I wasn't adverse. That's.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

And the whole thing to him was it just didn't matter if it were Russians or not. But to Anne's friend Greg, the guy who played Bill Clinton, he thinks about the whole thing very differently.

[Harry Miller]

Well, had I known that I was working for the Russians, I would have asked for a lot more money.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay.

[Harry Miller]

But I have never felt good about the thing because I might have had a little bit of influence on Donald Trump being elected. And I think that was a mistake for America. And he doesn't feel that way, but I do.

[Jad Abumrad]

So is the feeling almost a sort of guilt?

[Harry Miller]

I'm not. I don't feel guilty. I was being paid to do a job, and I did the job, and I did the job to the best of my ability, and people told me that I did the job well. Okay.

[Jad Abumrad]

Well, so how does it feel to know that you were sort of used?

[Harry Miller]

I find it a little irritating. Nobody likes to be used.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

Irritating to me feels like a bit of a mild word for how I might feel.

[Harry Miller]

Well, I don't know. I'm thinking that this might be played on the radio, so I can't really use the words that I would like to use. Nah, I'm pissed as shit.

[Jad Abumrad]

It sounds like you and Anne have very different interpretations of whether Russia was involved or not. Does that get between your relationship?

[Harry Miller]

Well, let's see. Do I love Annie? Yes, I do. Very, very much. Do we see eye to eye on everything? No, we don't.

[Jad Abumrad]

We all do crazy things for love. Even dress up like Bill Clinton, shave our beards and go in a prison cage.

[Harry Miller]

Oh, I've done crazier things than that. But I feel duped as an American, not by the Russians, but by my fellow Americans. The Russians can't come here and vote. We voted the way we wanted to vote. I don't know if I'm making any sense or not.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah, it sounds a little bit like you're saying that. What's frustrating is the fact that it wasn't actually Russia that started the fire. They were just blowing on it and maybe making it a little worse. But the truly disheartening thing is the fact that the fire was ignited here without Russia.

[Harry Miller]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's exactly what I'm trying to say. I mean, I can't. I can't. I can't talk about this anymore. Call back sometimes. Just call back sometime. I got something to say about everything. I'm an old man.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

Okay, good. Well, we'll make use of that.

[Jad Abumrad]

All right, Greg?

[Harry Miller]

Okay. Thank you very much.

[Jad Abumrad]

Thank you, man. Bye.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

Bye.

[Harry Miller]

Bye now.

[Jad Abumrad (Host)]

This piece was produced by Simon adler and Anna McEwan. We had reporting assistance from Becca Bressler and Charles Charles Mains. Very special thanks to Casey, Michelle and Lara Eisensee. And of course to Yani. I'm Chad Abumrand. Thank you guys for listening.

[Radiolab Producer/Interviewer]

This is molly mutich from phoenix, arizona. The radiolab was created by jad abumrad and is produced by soren wheeler. Dylan keefe is our director of sound design. Maria matasarpedia is our managing director. Our staff includes simon adler, becca bressler, rachel cusick, david gebel, beth el habti, tracy hunt, matt kielty, robert krulwich, annie mcewen, lateef nasser, melissa o', donnell, arianne wack, pat walters and molly webster. With help from amanda, amanda aronczyk, shima oliai, nyah hughes, jake, arlo, nagar fatali and phoebe wang. Our fact checker is michelle harris. What are you doing in a meeting? That could have been an email. That's right. You're losing interest. Don't let it happen to your money too. Vanguard. Vanguard's CashPlus account can't help you at work, but we can help with your savings because Vanguard believes in giving you more. So how much interest could you earn? Find [e-mail] cashplus offered by Vanguard Marketing Corporation member FINRA and SIPC. NYC now delivers the most up to date local news from WNYC and Gothamist every morning, midday and evening with three updates a day. Listeners get breaking news, top headlines and in depth coverage from across New York City. By sponsoring programming like NYC now, you'll reach our community of dedicated listeners with premium messaging and an uncluttered audio experience. Visit sponsorship WNYC to get in touch and find out more.