The Elixir of Life

Summary

Radiolab Episode Summary: "The Elixir of Life"

Release Date: June 6, 2025
Hosts: Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser
Produced by: WNYC Studios

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Introduction: Unveiling the Mysteries of Breast Milk

In this captivating episode titled "The Elixir of Life," Radiolab delves deep into the intricate relationship between human breast milk and the development of a newborn's gut microbiome. Hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser, the episode intertwines investigative journalism with scientific exploration to uncover the pivotal role of a seemingly obscure bacterium in infant health.

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The Hidden Components of Breast Milk

Timestamp [03:01] – Bruce German:
"Fat, sugar, proteins, hormones, calcium. You guys are right. I mean, everything you're saying is right. But there is something that we've missed. It's called human milk oligosaccharides."

Human milk oligosaccharides (HMOs) emerge as the third most abundant component in breast milk, surpassing even proteins in quantity. Unlike typical sugars, HMOs form complex and unique structures, earning them the nickname "alien sugars." These sugars are indigestible by humans but play a crucial role in nurturing specific gut bacteria essential for infant health.

Timestamp [04:07] – Bruce German:
"Human milk oligosaccharides... totally different than normal sugars. And they form into these kind of gorgeous but strange, elaborate shapes."

---

Discovering Bifidobacterium infantis: The Gut's Guardian

Timestamp [06:58] – Bruce German:
"Exactly. And so it turns out this bacteria is called Bifidobacterium infantis."

After years of meticulous research and numerous failed experiments, scientist Bruce German and his team finally identify Bifidobacterium infantis as the sole bacterium capable of metabolizing HMOs. This discovery highlights a symbiotic relationship where the mother's body produces HMOs to feed specific bacteria that, in turn, protect and nurture the infant's gut.

Timestamp [24:22] – Bruce German:
"It's like a monoculture in there... Bifid. Wow."

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Case Study: Shara Sheldon and the Battle Against C. diff in Horses

Timestamp [12:43] – Bruce German:
"There is one thing that's like the worst thing that happens in NICUs, and basically that's necrotizing enterocolitis."

Shara Sheldon, a PhD student, applies the knowledge of Bifidobacterium infantis to combat Clostridioides difficile (C. diff) infections in newborn horses. By introducing Bifidobacterium infantis into the foals' gut, Shara successfully reduces the incidence of C. diff from a devastating rate to zero, showcasing the bacterium's potent protective effects.

Timestamp [14:25] – Bruce German:
"Just don't try this at home. Just don't try this type of stuff at home."

---

Personal Triumph: Aver Mitra's Journey with Her Baby

Aver Mitra, an ER doctor and Radiolab correspondent, shares her personal encounter with Bifidobacterium infantis. Struggling with her baby's severe gas and discomfort, Aver reaches out to Bruce German for help. After administering the bacterium, she observes a dramatic improvement in her baby's well-being, underscoring the potential of Bifidobacterium infantis in enhancing infant health.

Timestamp [18:10] – Aver Mitra:
"The change was just so drastic. It was like a switch had clicked, and he just was so much happier."

---

The Microbiome Revolution: Implications for Autoimmune Diseases

Timestamp [42:09] – Bruce German:
"If you really think back, like, if you really go back in time, let's go back 500,000 years... we have literally co-evolved with this bacteria."

The episode explores the broader implications of losing Bifidobacterium infantis from the human microbiome. The gradual disappearance of this bacterium correlates with the rise of autoimmune and chronic diseases in modern societies. The hosts and experts discuss how an imbalance in gut bacteria during infancy can lead to an "intelligent immune system" that is either well-educated or prone to mistakes, such as attacking benign entities—a hallmark of autoimmune disorders.

Timestamp [43:18] – Brian Scottellini:
"It's [the immune system] something intelligent... if it doesn't [have Bifidobacterium infantis], then it's not an intelligent immune system."

---

Challenges and Regulatory Hurdles: The FDA's Intervention

Despite promising results, the introduction of Bifidobacterium infantis faces significant obstacles. Shara Sheldon details how, after successfully using the bacterium to prevent C. diff in horses and applying the same methodology to human infants, the FDA intervenes following instances of the bacterium entering the bloodstream of babies. This leads to a cease and desist order, halting the use of Bifidobacterium infantis in NICUs across the United States.

Timestamp [35:17] – Shara Sheldon:
"The FDA knew that NICUs throughout the United States were using this to prevent necrotizing enterocolitis and decided... all the NICUs in the United States needed to stop using probiotics."

The regulatory setback stalls further research and widespread adoption, creating financial strains for Bruce German's company and leaving the future of Bifidobacterium infantis intervention uncertain.

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Current Status and Future Directions

Despite these challenges, optimism remains among the scientific community. Brian Scottellini emphasizes ongoing research linking early microbiome composition to long-term health outcomes, advocating for a resurgence of interest and investment in microbiome-based therapies. Efforts continue to secure FDA approval and develop scalable methods to integrate Bifidobacterium infantis into infant care safely.

Timestamp [46:50] – Brian Scottellini:
"If you look back, how science moves, it's moving inexorably forward. It's just a matter of time."

---

On-Stage Experimentation: Reuniting with Bifidobacterium infantis

In a poignant and interactive segment, the hosts, along with scientists Bruce German and Brian Scottellini, conduct a live experiment by introducing Bifidobacterium infantis to the audience. This hands-on demonstration symbolizes the critical need to restore this bacterium to the human gut microbiome.

Timestamp [48:27] – Latif Nasser:
"Cheers."
(Participants consume the bacterium as a metaphor for reintegration into our microbiomes.)

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Conclusion: A Call to Rebalance Our Microbiomes

"The Elixir of Life" serves as a compelling narrative urging the restoration of Bifidobacterium infantis to mitigate rising autoimmune and chronic diseases. Through personal stories, scientific breakthroughs, and real-world applications, Radiolab highlights the intertwined destiny of humans and their microbiome, advocating for thoughtful intervention and policy support to foster healthier generations.

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Notable Quotes

• Bruce German [03:01]:
  "It's like wallpaper on the walls... it's like a monoculture in there."

• Aver Mitra [18:10]:
  "The change was just so drastic. It was like a switch had clicked."

• Shara Sheldon [35:17]:
  "The FDA decided... all the NICUs in the United States needed to stop using probiotics."

• Brian Scottellini [42:09]:
  "It's as important to feed the bacteria in the baby as the baby."

---

This episode of Radiolab masterfully intertwines science, personal narrative, and investigative journalism to shed light on the profound impact of our gut microbiome. "The Elixir of Life" not only informs but also inspires action towards restoring a vital component of human health, emphasizing the delicate balance between innovation and regulation in the pursuit of medical advancement.

Transcript

[Lulu Miller]

Radiolab is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart choice. Make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. Oh, wait, you're listening.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay.

[Aver Mitra]

All right.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay.

[Aver Mitra]

All right.

[Unknown]

You're listening to Radio Lab Radio from wny.

[Latif Nasser]

See y latif.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah, Lulu.

[Latif Nasser]

So I have a special treat for you today.

[Lulu Miller]

Okay.

[Latif Nasser]

Recently, I got to do a live show. It was in a little club in New York City called Caveat.

[Lulu Miller]

Ooh, I always wanted to go there.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah, it's really cute. It's got like a cabaret, underground vibe.

[Lulu Miller]

Are you finally singing? I feel like you've been just, you.

[Latif Nasser]

Know, I did not sing in this show at all. But there were live musicians, including Dylan Keefe on his upright bass, our director of sound design. Okay, thank you all for coming out. Thank you kind. And a rock star of sorts. You aver Mitra, can we get some Bring on music?

[Lulu Miller]

Ooh, aver.

[Latif Nasser]

Thank you. Yeah. So, as you know, Aver Mitra is our ER doctor special correspondent who has done some of the most beloved medical mystery tales on the show.

[Lulu Miller]

So many vultures. Plane crashes.

[Bruce German]

Thank you so much.

[Latif Nasser]

Easter island dirt.

[Lulu Miller]

That's right. Yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah. And he had another one in store that he told on stage that night. Truly an odyssey takes us all over the globe. We blow by the Mennonite communities, we go to Gambia, we go back into deep evolutionary time to stage a reunion, a physical reunion with what Avere calls humanity's oldest friend. And he kicked off the whole thing with a bottle full of white liquid.

[Bruce German]

We're talking about the magical substance that is breast milk.

[Latif Nasser]

And because, as you know, I recently had a baby, the breast milk was provided by me. I have an 8 month old. I am breastfeeding. Also use formula. This is not a. This is not. We're not here to say one or the other is better. But instead. And so we just kind of held it up to the spotlight. Everyone was looking at it. And Avere kicked the whole thing off with just a simple question.

[Bruce German]

I guess I'm going to throw it to the crowd. Like if we just had to name the components of breast milk. And I'm going to take one off the table. We know that it's 87% water. Okay, fine, that's easy. But the solid part, like name some things. What's in breast milk? Vodka. Vodka.

[Latif Nasser]

Depending on the Mother's night.

[Bruce German]

Yeah, right. Fat, sugar, proteins, hormones, calcium. You guys are right. I mean, everything you're saying is right. But there is something that we've missed. It's called human milk oligosaccharides. And what's crazy is it's actually the third largest compound in breast milk, way above protein. So, you know, you have lactose, that's the sugar that someone mentioned. You have lipids, that's fat. And then you have these HMOs, and they are strange.

[Lulu Miller]

Wait, HMOs?

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah, it's not your healthcare health insurance organization.

[Lulu Miller]

Oh.

[Latif Nasser]

They're actually sugars, but as Avere told us, they are totally different than normal sugars. And they form into these kind of gorgeous but strange, elaborate shapes.

[Bruce German]

Branches and chains, ferns and weird shapes.

[Latif Nasser]

And they are not found anywhere else in nature, just in human breast milk.

[Lulu Miller]

Weird.

[Latif Nasser]

In fact, Veer calls them alien sugars.

[Lulu Miller]

And that's the number three ingredient in breast milk. Alien sugar.

[Latif Nasser]

The third biggest.

[Bruce German]

Yeah, you can't get them at the local grocery store. And what's crazy about it is humans can't digest this stuff at all. Like, literally no human being can do anything with these sugars. And no one ever really thought to ask, like, what's going on really, until a scientist by the name of Brutus German came along and basically just asked a simple question. Why? Why would a mother who's got very precious limited calories, why would that mother literally dissolve her own body, taking all these precious nutrients and calories to make milk that needs to feed this baby? Why would the mom make these sugars that no baby can use? Why? So this is around 2005. Bruce is having these thoughts, and this is the era, sort of the microbiome, where we're all thinking about the microbiome. And it's this idea that, like, we're basically human suits covered in bacteria filled with bacteria, you know? And so he has this hunch that's basically like, okay, well, if we can't use it, maybe there's a bacteria that can't where lives inside of a baby. You know, maybe there's a bacteria that lives in the baby's sense.

[Latif Nasser]

Like food for a baby bacteria, right?

[Bruce German]

So they design an experiment, basically taking an agar plate where bacteria like to grow.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay?

[Bruce German]

So they decide, okay, we'll take an agar plate, sprinkle the alien sugars on the plate, and throw a bacteria in there and see if it grows.

[Latif Nasser]

If you eat it, you'll proliferate. If you don't, you're gonna Die.

[Bruce German]

Exactly.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay.

[Bruce German]

Yeah, got it. So they throw some bacteria. Take a common bacteria that lives in the gut, throw it on there, throw some HMOs, it dies, doesn't work. No luck. Okay, try another one. No luck. Try a third one. No luck.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay, how long is this taking?

[Bruce German]

Well, so a year goes by. Bruce and his team are, like, begging, borrowing, stealing to get, like, any breast milk that they can. You know, begging on the street, like, can I get some? You know, it's not working. A year goes by, two years go by.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay.

[Bruce German]

Finally, on the third year, boom. They find something that was perfect. Ooh, wow. Why do we prep for these podcasts? We could just do this.

[Latif Nasser]

I know. Let's just always do that. Okay.

[Bruce German]

Okay. So. So they find something that's growing. You can see all this white stuff is bacteria that's growing.

[Latif Nasser]

At this point, Aver shows us a picture of a plate with all this bacteria growing on it.

[Bruce German]

Cause they put it under a microscope, and it looks very strange.

[Latif Nasser]

Ooh. If you zoom in on the picture, this collection of squiggles.

[Bruce German]

Zoom in a little more.

[Latif Nasser]

It's beautiful. Become.

[Bruce German]

Zoom in a little more.

[Latif Nasser]

These individual little. Little more Y shapes. And so this is the bacteria that likes to eat the weird alien sugar in the breast milk.

[Bruce German]

Exactly. And so it turns out this bacteria is called Bifidobacterium infantis.

[Lulu Miller]

Bifidobacterium infantis. Never heard of it.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah, we can just call it Bifid for short. It is shaped like a Y and with one of the little spires kind of bent over like a little puppy dog ear. It's kind of cute. Anyway, this was the only bacteria they could find that actually ate those alien sugars in breast milk.

[Bruce German]

Yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay, so does that mean this is in my baby's belly?

[Bruce German]

Well, that's the next question. Exactly. Right. So you have you found, out of the thousands of bacteria, you found one that can eat these sugars? That's crazy enough because, like, you know, we don't. We can't eat them. But it has all the genes and all the enzymes to eat these sugars that we make that we can't eat. It's just weird, right?

[Shara Sheldon]

Yeah.

[Bruce German]

So you would think, okay, this should be in some baby's guts.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah.

[Bruce German]

And so the way to look for that is, you know, when you have bacteria in your gut, you're gonna poop out some of that bacteria. So you really gotta get into poop. You know, that's where this story is going. And so basically from there, Bruce and his team need to Start collecting dirty diapers, which I don't know if that's an upgrade from begging for milk, but that's where they're at. So Bruce is working at UC Davis. He's around getting his friends and neighbors and strangers on the street to give him their dirty diapers. Let's culture it. Let's see if we can find some bifid in there. Yeah, but no, he can't find any bifid in any of these diapers.

[Latif Nasser]

They're just not. So that theory gone?

[Bruce German]

Well, it might just be where they're located, you know? So they realize they need to sort of expand the search. And that's where this idea starts. What I call the amazing global baby Diaper hunt. Okay, so it turns out that the Gates foundation, for some reason, has collected stool samples from all over the planet. I'm not sure why. Don't tell Elon Musk about this, please.

[Latif Nasser]

Basic science. You never know.

[Bruce German]

So they have just baby poop just lining their walls, I guess. I don't know.

[Latif Nasser]

Just libraries of poop.

[Bruce German]

Just libraries of poop from all over the world. So Bruce calls them, sets up a meeting, and says, can I get some of this? Can we get some of this poop? So, yeah, they set up a deal where they're gonna send him poop from all over the world and they're gonna look. So they look. They start looking at poop in Denmark. And no bifid.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay.

[Bruce German]

Scandinavia, Switzerland. No, no bifid.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay.

[Bruce German]

But then they get to Gambia. Bifid, it's there in the poop. Cambodia, it's there. Rural China, Bangladesh. They have bifid, huh? Weirdly, the only people in the us. Mennonites.

[Latif Nasser]

Mennonites. Have the bifid. The babies have it.

[Bruce German]

Very strange.

[Latif Nasser]

Why some places and not others?

[Bruce German]

Well, that's the question at this time. They don't really know. Why here? Why not there? Yeah, it's a mystery. I mean, it certainly could be. You know, maybe this bacteria survives in a certain climate. Maybe it's genetic differences, maybe it's lifestyle differences. It's an open question.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay. Does he have any guesses of, like. There's obviously some bacteria we like that are great for gut health. Some we don't want. Does he have any sense of what it's actually doing?

[Bruce German]

Right. That's the next question is Bruce and the team guy by the name of David Mills, all these amazing scientists want to figure out what is this bacteria doing? So what they do is they do another experiment. They basically take some cells from the gut, which you can take. You can culture them and you can put them on a plate. And when you put gut cells on a plate, they actually automatically form themselves into a wall. And so it's kind of cool because gut cells, what they're supposed to do is basically form a wall, and anything you eat or drink has to basically go through those cells to get to your body. So it wants to make sure all the food is. Is the right food. It's all broken down properly. All the good stuff comes in, all the bad stuff stays out. That's what the gut cells do. So they form into this wall. The gut's being formed in a petri dish. They throw some bifidobacterium on the petri dish and see what happens. And right away they notice that the bacteria are able to sort of latch onto the walls of the gut, just like, hang there like mountain climbers, and they start proliferating really fast and basically coating the whole wall.

[Latif Nasser]

Whoa. So that's this Y shaped bacteria that likes alien sugars. With enough time, it's almost like wallpaper on the inside of the baby's gut.

[Bruce German]

Yeah, exactly. It's like wallpaper on the walls.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay, so it sounds like. So I guess I ask again, is this a good thing?

[Bruce German]

Right. We don't know if it's good or not. So to answer that, I gotta tell you a story.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay.

[Bruce German]

I love this story. Dylan. Guys, I'm gonna need a little bit of, like, rogue. Don't try this at home. Just don't try this type of stuff at home. Okay, so our story centers around Dr. Shara Sheldon, who at the time is a PhD student. Okay. Now she's studying this stuff. She goes to a lecture where Bruce is talking about these results and sticks in the back of her mind. Meanwhile, her father is a professor at the vet school, and he works at a lab, like, at the. Not at a lab, at a barn that's raising these thoroughbred horses.

[Latif Nasser]

Oh, okay.

[Bruce German]

So thoroughbred horses, if you don't know, you know, those are those really expensive horses that, you know, they eat way better food than you and I. Their lives are definitely more valuable than ours. Like, these are expensive.

[Latif Nasser]

Fine. Yeah. Okay.

[Bruce German]

But there's a problem at the barn. Every new foal that's being born to these horses after a few days is getting diarrhea, fevers, and then dying. Oh, yeah. And that's sad because we like horses, but also sad because they're losing, like, hundreds of thousands of dollars every time on every foal.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay, okay.

[Bruce German]

And the problem is, next week, there's going to be, like, 20 more foals being born.

[Latif Nasser]

Oh, no.

[Bruce German]

And, yeah, so basically what they do is they find out what's going on, and it turns out these horses are infested with, like, one of the worst diarrheal bacteria that we have. And if anyone works. Does anyone work in health care or anything like that, I mean, what's that one bacteria? Diarrheal illness that we don't want to deal with? C. Diff. Exactly. You know it. Once you smelled C. Diff once, you'll never forget.

[Latif Nasser]

I mean, Avir showed a picture of C. Diff that was right behind us on stage. Okay, well, it looks kind of like a dynamite stick, like, exploding corn dog situation.

[Bruce German]

Yes, the corn dog dynamite stick. This bacteria is terrible, okay? Like, you can't. If you spray this with antiseptic. If you spray it with Purell, like, it won't die. Like, this thing doesn't die. It's really hard. It needs very strong antibiotics. It kills people all the time. We see this every time in the hospital. And it was killing these horses. So these foals infested with C. Diff, the dad, who's the professor who works there, is talking to his daughter about it and commiserating. And the daughter goes, wait, I just heard a lecture by this guy, Bruce German, and he was talking about this bacteria that coats the walls. Let's give this to the horses. So the dad goes, yeah, I mean, let's try it. So they take the bacteria from Bruce, they culture it, they mix it up with some milk, and then when the foal is just born, they squirt it into the foal's mouth.

[Latif Nasser]

Like with a little baby bottle.

[Bruce German]

Yeah, a little baby bottle.

[Latif Nasser]

Squirt it in, hope for the best. It's only $100,000 on the line, right? Okay.

[Bruce German]

And lo and behold, what happens is, sure enough, 20 foals are born. None of them get C. Diff. All of them do fine.

[Latif Nasser]

Whoa.

[Bruce German]

Incredible.

[Latif Nasser]

We go. Can we get a round of applause.

[Bruce German]

For Shara Grebble Science again.

[Latif Nasser]

Don't try it at home. Like, clinical trials are good, but ingenuity.

[Bruce German]

Okay, so I want to play my interview with her because I wish I could tell you the story stopped there, but it continues on. Oh, all right, let's see.

[Aver Mitra]

So I was like, good job, brain, for remembering the random lecture with Priya's German.

[Latif Nasser]

So in the room, we're actually now watching a video of the interview where you can see Shara on the left put together short Dark hair and then aver on the right is, like, kind of sweet, sweaty, and, like, was just saving lives maybe.

[Bruce German]

There are so many random lectures I had in med school that I will never remember. Like, I don't know how you did that.

[Aver Mitra]

I loved it, though. I thought it was the neatest thing. I don't know.

[Bruce German]

Okay, so that's an amazing story, but I know that the story doesn't end there. What happens next?

[Aver Mitra]

So time goes on. I'm still doing my PhD and got married, got pregnant, and then I had my baby. Healthy baby. Everything's going great. And then the change comes and we started dealing with a lot of gas, a lot of crying. Just like, he looked like he was in pain. We were trying everything for the gas, the little gas drops, auto natural, the bicycle kicks, all kinds of things. So I just was getting quite desperate to find something that would work. And we kind of hit the breaking point when my husband was out of town. And so I'm alone with the baby, and it was so bad. He was up, like all night, just in pain, gassy. And I was like, this is not going to work. And I said, we need something. And so I remembered the Bifidobacterium. And I said, I'm going to email Bruce. And so I sent a desperate email saying, please, please, I know you have some of this bifidobacterium still. Like, I'd really like to try it.

[Bruce German]

Okay. And so does he email back? Like, does he take a week to email back?

[Aver Mitra]

He got back to me right away and he said, you can drive up and get it. And I loaded up in the car, drove to Davis and went in, and we got, like a little bag, just a brown paper bag with samples in there.

[Bruce German]

And what, they're in, like little vials or something? Or like.

[Aver Mitra]

No, they're in little sachets, like a little rectangular packet that you, like, can across and pour out.

[Bruce German]

Oh, okay. Yeah, you got it.

[Aver Mitra]

So I was like.

[Bruce German]

Like a bag of drugs? Basically, yeah.

[Aver Mitra]

You know, you're using stuff that's being tested for research, so it's not very pretty.

[Bruce German]

Right.

[Aver Mitra]

I get home, I'm very excited to try this. I grab one of the little sachet packets out and I open it and I see there's, like a powder in there. It had kind of an interesting odor, I noticed. And then I mix it in with the breast milk and then suck it up in the syringe. And then my mom helps me hold Connor and we hold his head and we put the syringe into his Mouth squirted. And so we did that, and they said, just do one dose a day. So, you know, I'm sitting there with bated breath, waiting to see if anything happens, watching him like a hawk. We didn't really see any changes right away, so I was a little disappointed because you're desperate at this point, right? I want results. I'm so tired. And it took two days, so. And then it worked. Oh, wow.

[Bruce German]

Okay. What do you. What do you mean it worked? Like, it.

[Aver Mitra]

The change was just so drastic. It was like a switch had clicked, and he just was so much happier. He was sleeping. He wouldn't have the gas constantly and just seemed so much more relaxed. And I just. I was like, this is working, and this is exactly what was missing from his microbiota.

[Bruce German]

Well, you know, the scientist in me has to ask, like, you know, what? Could this have just been a coincidence? You know, like. Or placebo effect? You know, obviously you really wanted to see some results. Like, how do you know. How do you know for sure that this did.

[Aver Mitra]

That I would be doing the same thing, Right. Oh, this is just a placebo. But the amount of dirty diapers had been very consistent. Consistent. I had been keeping track because I love data and I'm a nerd. So I was keeping track of all of these things. And to go from, like, that 8 to 11 down to 2, I knew it was doing something.

[Bruce German]

Wow, That's. I gotta say. I mean, like, was there ever a part of you that felt, like, afraid to essentially be, like, experimenting on your firstborn child? Or did you just feel that confident?

[Aver Mitra]

I mean, I felt really confident with it. And there's a small part of you that's like, oh, yeah, I'm giving this novel thing to my baby. But when I saw all the benefit, it was like, this is right, and it's working and everything's good, but it is scary.

[Latif Nasser]

Oh, wow. I just have to say, is there any other better image of sleep deprivation than, like, this thing? Sleep smelled a little weird, but let's put it down. Wow. Okay, go, Shara. I mean, what. Okay, but to follow up on your question there, like, do we know what? Like, is there still a chance that could have been placebo? Like, do we have any clue about what's actually happening at the cellular level? Like, what is going on?

[Bruce German]

Yeah. So Bruce sort of made a deal with Shara. Like, I'll give you the bacteria, you give me his diapers. Common theme. We're seeing emerge here. So. So that's what he does. He sort of Collects Connor's diapers and a bunch of other kids, too. And he's sort of seeing what's going on. Let's check the microbiome. Let's check the stool, see what's happening.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah.

[Bruce German]

Let's look for a subtle change, like a change of 5, 10% in your microbiome. I mean, that's huge.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah.

[Bruce German]

But what he finds is, actually, Connor's diapers went from having zero bifidobacterium to being 80% bifidobacterium.

[Brian Scottellini]

Whoa.

[Bruce German]

And this is, like, insane because, you know, it's not. We're not. This isn't normal microbiome stuff. This isn't like diverse ecosystem. This is just like, domination.

[Latif Nasser]

It's like a monoculture in there.

[Bruce German]

Yeah, exactly.

[Latif Nasser]

Bifid. Wow.

[Bruce German]

Yeah. Okay, so they noticed that, and that's interesting. Another thing they noticed is, well, just like, babies eat and they poop while these bacterias are eating these alien sugars, and they have to poop, too.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay.

[Bruce German]

But what they're seeing is the poop that these bacteria are creating are acid. So they're creating acidic poop. And the thing is, bacteria can't really grow that well in acid. So it's. Acid prevents bacteria, most bacteria, from growing. But it turns out the Bifidobacterium is totally chilling in the acid. But the idea is it may be keeping other bacteria away.

[Lulu Miller]

Okay, can I just make sure I understand what's going on?

[Latif Nasser]

Absolutely.

[Lulu Miller]

Okay. So bifid is the thing that eats the weird sugar in breast milk, and if you put it in a baby's gut, it'll receive that sugar, it'll eat the sugar, it'll bloom, and it'll wallpaper the gut, but also it'll like, edge out all the other bacteria with its acid poop.

[Latif Nasser]

Yes, it is like bully wallpaper, kind of.

[Lulu Miller]

Okay. And the idea is that the bully wallpaper is what helped Shara's baby have less gas and less pooping pain or whatever.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah. I mean, we don't know what was happening inside Cher's baby for sure, but that is exactly Bruce German's theory. And, you know, Avere pointed out there's a lot of such situations, especially in a newly developing baby gut, that if the wrong kinds of bacteria get in there, it can release toxins and poke.

[Bruce German]

Holes in the gut wall and allow things to pass through. Instead of going through the cells, they sort of go in between the cells and around the cells. So bacteria can get in, toxins can get in. Undigested food particles could get in and that's called leaky gut.

[Lulu Miller]

Leaky gut?

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah. And according to Avere, that can cause a lot more problems than just gas pain or diarrhea.

[Bruce German]

And for this baby that just got an immune system, like two months ago, is trying to figure out what the hell is going on, and it gets very overwhelmed and confused. It gets inflamed, the immune system is hyperactivated, and it causes a lot. You know, it could cause a lot of problems.

[Latif Nasser]

So Bruce's theory is that, you know, going back to bifid coating the walls.

[Bruce German]

Of the gut when Bifidobacterium is here, the Bifidobacterium sticks to the walls, prevents any other bacteria from coming there, so that basically nothing bad gets into the body and the immune system can actually, like, learn and do its thing.

[Lulu Miller]

And to be clear, so this is a bacteria that most babies, especially here in the US Right now, do not have.

[Latif Nasser]

Exactly. And what's wild is you can actually see the disappearance over time. Because if you look back over time at poop samples from across the world, which there are, one of Bruce's students at the time actually did this, Bethany Henrick, she looked at the historical data and found that baby poop back in the early 1900s used to be way more acidic, like everywhere.

[Bruce German]

Whoa.

[Lulu Miller]

It's just been subtly changing all this time.

[Latif Nasser]

And you can. Yeah. Over the last hundred years, in places like the US it started trending over to neutral.

[Bruce German]

There's this very clear line and it's showing that basically our baby's poop used to be acidic to a pH of 5, which is acidic. And it's slowly been working its way up to neutral. And it's like this very clear thing if you map it out.

[Latif Nasser]

Huh. And again, you said the bifid makes the acidic poop. So watching it get less acidic, is that like watching a disappearance?

[Bruce German]

Exactly. At this point, Bruce and the team is sort of being like, wait, this is a sign. This is the marker of bifid and it's going away. That's what they see.

[Lulu Miller]

Wow, this feels. You're making me, like, miss this thing. Like, I feel like we should get it back.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah. Well, that is where we are going next in the show. First, we're going to take a brief intermission, but when we come back, we will not only address that, we're going to have special guests live on stage. We're going to hear about cease and desist orders from the FDA coming down to doctors, and we're going to be doing some real life. I guess you could call it experimentation on the audience on babies, not babies. On adults in the bar. Stick with us.

[Lulu Miller]

Radiolab is supported by Capital One Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. He'd also tell you that Radiolab is his favorite podcast too. Oh really? Thanks Capital One Bank Guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com bank Capital One NA member FDIC.

[Latif Nasser]

Radiolab is supported by Betterment when investing your money starts to feel like a second job, Betterment steps in with a little work Life Balance. It's an automated investing and savings app that handles the work so you don't have to. While they build and manage your portfolio, you build and manage your weekend plans. While they make it easy to invest for what matters, you just get to enjoy what matters. Their automated tools simplify the complex and put your money to work optimizing day after day and again and again. So go ahead, take your time to rest and recharge. Because while your money doesn't need a work life balance, you do make your money hustle with Betterment. Get [e-mail] that's B E T T E R M E N T.com investing involves risk performance not guaranteed. Radiolab is supported by Factor as summertime is gearing up, schedules may look a little more touch and go. Whether it's an upcoming family vacation or kids summer camp that has you leaving work earlier than usual. So meals might take a hit. And Factor is here to help. Thanks to the menus crafted by chefs with options like Calorie Smart, Protein plus and Keto, Factor offers fresh, never frozen meals plus they're dietitian approved and ready to eat in just two minutes. You can feel nourished and ready to roll no matter what life throws at you. Perfect for any active, busy lifestyle. With 40 options across eight dietary preferences on the menu each week, it's easy to pick meals that are tailored to your eating goals. Factor can help you feel your best all day long with wholesome smoothies, breakfast grab and go snacks, and more add ons. Eat smart with Factor get started at FactorMeals.com Radiolab and use code Radiolab to get 50% off your first box plus free shipping. That's code [e-mail] RADIOLAB to get 50% off plus free shipping on your first box.

[Unknown]

This is an ad by BetterHelp you know, being a good guy, being, I guess, a man today is sort of a never ending act of recalibration. It is a wonderful, noble challenge, but a challenge nonetheless. We've got to be strong but vulnerable to be able to lead, but also listen. We are told at times to protect, but know that we should never control. I mean, it can be confusing. So it's no wonder that 6 million men in the US suffer from depression every year, often undiagnosed. And I guess I'm just here to say, well, talking to someone, it can help. I have had some wonderful therapists over the years. They have helped me in many ways to be less reactive, to be more aware, to be a better partner, a better friend. So if you're looking for someone to talk to, BetterHelp is a great place to start. With over 35,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 5 million people globally. It is convenient. You can join a session with the click of a button and you can switch therapists at any time. So to give therapy a try and to get 10% off your first month, go to betterhelp.com Radiolab that's BetterHelp. H E-L-P.com Radiolab.

[Bruce German]

Okay, okay.

[Lulu Miller]

Latif Lulu, Radiolab.

[Latif Nasser]

We are back playing the live show I did with Aver Mitra telling the story of this baby gut bacterium that seems to be protecting the baby's gut. And we didn't delve into this much, but also feeding the baby's gut cells, keeping them going strong, but also appears to be disappearing from our species all over. And according to Bruce German, our main scientist, it is time to bring bifid back.

[Bruce German]

At this point, Bruce goes from being like just a normal scientist, show up to work, do your research, to becoming like a borderline evangelist. Like he, you know, his daughters won't take him to the family dinners because this is like all he talks about. He told me that, you know, he's like, he sees a baby in a stroller across the street, he's going to like sprint over to the baby, throw some bifido back to your madam. And he actually mortgages his house and gets his co workers to do the same. They sell the boat, do all these things to start their own startup to sell Bifidobacterium.

[Latif Nasser]

Whoa.

[Bruce German]

Right? Which you can buy and which we may or may not have.

[Latif Nasser]

Ooh. And this is just like he's selling bacteria in a jar.

[Bruce German]

Bacteria in a jar.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay, okay. Now at this point in the show, I just need to pop out and say, Aver told a story that, honestly, I have not been able to shake since that night. And it's kind of like the story of Shara and her baby, but on steroids. And it starts when Bruce and his team connect with a guy named Brian Scottellini.

[Bruce German]

Brian Sottellini is an MD, PhD, and he's a neonatologist who works at OHSU in Portland. So he's working there. And as a neonatologist, it's a beautiful thing because you get to see these little tiny preemies grow into, like, full fledged adults. But there is one thing that's like the worst thing that happens in NICUs, and basically that's this.

[Latif Nasser]

So Avero is showing us this picture. It's like a CT scan kind of thing. And you can sort of tell that it's like the scan of a gut, but it seems to be almost, like, ballooned out.

[Bruce German]

So what we're looking at is a preemie's belly, and it's filled with gas. It's very distended, and this baby's not doing well. This is called necrotizing enterocolitis, also known as neck. And basically what's going on is, like a bacteria, an adult bacteria has somehow made its way into the baby's gut, has sort of bloomed and taken over, and is, like, completely destroying the gut wall, producing all this gas and all these bad things.

[Latif Nasser]

Huh. That looks painful. Scary. I mean.

[Lulu Miller]

What?

[Bruce German]

Very scary. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, when I was a resident, I rotated in NICU's, and it's terrifying because these preemies can go from being normal, and then overnight they can totally crash. Get this. And the mortality is very high once they get this.

[Aver Mitra]

Yikes.

[Bruce German]

So Brian gets sort of wind of this bacteria, and they both have this thought, well, maybe we could try bifidobacterium in the preemies. In the preemies.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay.

[Bruce German]

He gets some of the bifidobacterium from Bruce and the team and the company, and he just starts giving this to.

[Latif Nasser]

The babies without checking with parents or.

[Bruce German]

Right. Pretty much like this is on formulary. Now we're gonna give it to them.

[Latif Nasser]

I'm having mixed emotions about this idea.

[Bruce German]

Sure.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay.

[Bruce German]

Yeah, I agree.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay.

[Bruce German]

And, you know, you got to think he's not just waiting till they get neck to give it to them. He's giving it to all the preemies, like, even the ones that would be fine without it.

[Latif Nasser]

Like a preventative measure.

[Bruce German]

Exactly, preventative. And lo and behold, he finds that the incidence of neck goes from 11% down to 2%.

[Latif Nasser]

It was actually 2.7% insane. That's huge.

[Bruce German]

Yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay.

[Bruce German]

And this goes on for years. Yeah, there's in fact, years that go by that they don't see a single incidence of. Of this.

[Latif Nasser]

Of nec. In the nicu.

[Bruce German]

In the nicu. He publishes about it and he's gains.

[Latif Nasser]

Sprinkling by this whole time.

[Bruce German]

Yeah, just sprinkling.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay.

[Bruce German]

This was in. Well, he's. We'll get to that. So he does this and. Yeah, he finds that it's working. Other NICUs are starting to take this up.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay.

[Brian Scottellini]

Yeah.

[Bruce German]

So anyway, I've been talking about Brian enough. I want to bring Brian up himself. So, Brian, if you're here, let's bring you down.

[Aver Mitra]

Music.

[Latif Nasser]

Come on down.

[Bruce German]

You can come over here. Thank you, Brian.

[Shara Sheldon]

Hi, everybody.

[Bruce German]

You just flew in today. Just landed.

[Shara Sheldon]

I did.

[Bruce German]

So you had this really incredible result when you studied bifidobacterium. I mean, truly incredible. And it seemed like it was spreading. But I guess I wanted to ask you what happened next?

[Shara Sheldon]

Well, as Avir was saying, for years our incidence of necrotizing enterocolitis was quite low. And so we started in 2018 to answer that question, and then we had to stop in 2023.

[Bruce German]

Tell me about that.

[Shara Sheldon]

So for years, even well before me, neonatal intensive care units throughout the world, in Europe and in Australia, almost every premature baby gets a probiotic, gets a bacteria that is like this, including this one, Bifidobacterium infantis, to prevent necrotizing enterocolitis. So I wasn't as crazy as it might have sounded to start using it in our nicu.

[Bruce German]

Crazy. A little crazy.

[Shara Sheldon]

But we were the first ones to use it alone. So our team decided this bacteria makes sense because of its symbiosis with milk. And so we thought we should use this to prevent necrotizing ourocolitis. But what happened? As you might expect, whenever you introduce a bacterium into somebody, whether it's us or babies, and especially babies with a immature immune system, there is a risk that it will find its way into their bloodstream. Now, if you ask me if I'm going to choose between a pathogen and Bifidobacterium infantis, which has no antibiotic resistance and is meant to be in milk or in the gut to metabolize HMOs, which cannot be metabolized by us, remember that. I will choose B. Infantis. And so, unfortunately, some babies got B. Infantis in their bloodstream and had positive Blood cultures, meaning that when they looked ill, they had a sample of blood taken and then was grown to see if B. Infantis was there. I might add that other bacteria that have been used as probiotics have also found their way into the bloodstream. The FDA knew that NICUs throughout the United States were using this to prevent necrotizing enterocolitis and decided with the instance of a bloodstream infection that all the NICUs in the United States needed to stop using probiotics to prevent necrotizing or colitis. This essentially was like a cease and desist letter. You can read this letter and see there isn't a risk department in a hospital that's going to continue to use this with the FDA saying you shall not use this without a investigational new drug status.

[Bruce German]

So you get this letter and I imagine you have some complicated feelings because it's like, I don't know, we could understand where the FDA is coming from.

[Latif Nasser]

I'm a little on side fda, but.

[Bruce German]

At the same time you're, you're working hands on with these babies and you're seeing amazing results. So like, what's going through your mind?

[Shara Sheldon]

The first was oh, crap. But a stronger word than that because in the risk benefit we saw necrotizing enterocolitis, we'd get two or three babies die per year. And for several years, no baby that was born in our hospital died from necrotizing enterocolitis. So on one hand I felt like babies were going to die. Now I hate this disease. I can't tell you how much I hate this disease. And I hate seeing babies die in four hours, six hours they're dead and the impact it has on their parents versus a rare risk like this. So that was going through my mind. But on the other hand, it was sort of like when you were talking about Lulu, it was sort of like, well, we were using something to treat, prevent or mitigate a disease which is a drug. And therefore I see the FDA's point. So I was flip mines.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah.

[Bruce German]

What happened once you removed this bacteria?

[Shara Sheldon]

Unfortunately, we are working on reporting this, but our necrotizing enterocolitis rate has come right back to where it was before. In fact, probably a little bit higher than it was before.

[Bruce German]

So I guess where do you go from here? What are you trying to do now?

[Shara Sheldon]

Well, we suspect this is happening throughout the United States, so we hope to be one of the first to report this. But since that time we've been working with the FDA to try to have this become a drug which is not the most simple pathway and costs a lot of money to develop a drug. Investors are scared of premature babies, they're afraid of pediatrics in general, and they're really afraid of preterm babies. And so it's a struggle to try to make this continue to move forward. And the only thing that keeps the folks who work on it working on it as a large team is the fact that it, at least in our hands, it works.

[Bruce German]

Okay, Brian, stay here on stage. Thanks, Brian, for being here.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah.

[Bruce German]

Okay, so just to advance the story from here, Brian gets this result. Bruce has this company. He still really believes in it, but unfortunately his company sort of now has a Scarlet A, and they have to sort of short sell to stay afloat. And so they lose Bruce and his team sort of lose stake in the company. They're still, you know, he still has his job. He's not like on the streets, but things aren't looking too good. So. But Bruce still. And I've spoken to Bruce for hours. He's still positive about it. He's still hopeful. And so anyway, I've been gatekeeping this guy Bruce long enough. Let's bring him up to the stage. Bruce Jervis. Hi.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay, Bruce, I've got a question going all the way back to that global poop hunt. I don't know if that's what you called it in your papers, but our shorthand. Do we have any clue, like, why in the places like Denmark and most of the US except the Mennonite communities in Switzerland, like, why? Where was the bifid going? Why did we lose it? If it seems like it is such a harmonious thing in a baby gut.

[Brian Scottellini]

First, I should say that this is the work of literally over 100 people for 20 years. And I know I'm obviously distractingly tall and good looking, but really it's this diversity of scientists from around the campus of UC Davis have brought this science forward. And that's one of the critical questions where you need multiple disciplines because it's a mutualism, what we would call a synergy. Oligosaccharides don't do much by themselves. The baby poops them out. Bifidobacteria infantus doesn't do much all by itself. The baby boops it out. But you put them together and that's the magic, and away it goes. But babies are born sterile, completely.

[Latif Nasser]

No microbiome in there.

[Brian Scottellini]

They're sterile. Mother, you are keeping your baby sterile. But needless to say, the minute they're born, they're being inoculated. From bacteria all over. If there's no bifidobacteria infantis in their environment, they cannot get bifidobacteria infantis. If mothers can't breastfeed, then they don't get the oligosaccharides, they don't survive. No bifidobacteria in the baby, no fish.

[Latif Nasser]

Food for the bacteria.

[Brian Scottellini]

If the mother gets antibiotics, kills bifidobacteria, and that mother will never have bifidobacteria again unless she somehow gets reinoculated. One step in any of those directions ends the story. And it's been happening over a century. Mothers are losing the ability to pass on the bacteria.

[Bruce German]

You know, another part of this is formula doesn't have these alien sugars, and it's not able to feed these bacteria, so the bacteria gets starved. And I will say, you won't admit this, but, you know, part of his evangelism was, was that he would email all the formula makers and be like, can I meet with you? And he would get some meetings with these formula makers. And my impression was they were sort of like, thank you, sir. Here's security. Please leave. I'm exaggerating, but lo and behold, a few years ago, all the major formula makers have added these alien sugars into the formula. I'm crediting you with that.

[Brian Scottellini]

I mean, it turns out that there are.

[Latif Nasser]

That's great. That's great.

[Brian Scottellini]

There are dozens of different oligosaccharides, and so far, industrially, they can only make a couple. And you need a lot. Remember, you pointed out there's more of this than protein evolution, saying it's as important to feed the bacteria in the baby as the baby, so. So we need to get a lot more.

[Bruce German]

Okay, well, I think one question I had is sort of, you know, you look at the ph changing and the poops changing over the centuries, Like, I can't help but think this correlates so well with the rise of, like, childhood autoimmune diseases and, like, these chronic diseases. I just wanted to. Is there something there?

[Brian Scottellini]

Yeah, we've been studying that. And the strength of the immune system is. It's so personal. The benefit of that is your immune system can learn to attack diseases your parents never had. There's a flaw is your immune system has to develop, be educated in the first few weeks of life. And the immune system is basically located in your gut for sort of obvious reasons. It's paying attention to the environment through the bacteria, if the bacteria are appropriate. If it's a bacteria infantis, then it's clear that the immune system is developing appropriately. But if the gut is full of inappropriate bacteria, now the immune system is being miseducated. The result of that is with bifidobacteria and fantas, it's clear it's an intelligent immune system. If it doesn't, then it's not an intelligent immune system.

[Bruce German]

What does that mean, intelligent immune system?

[Brian Scottellini]

It makes mistakes. So immune system can make two kinds of mistakes. It can say there's danger, don't worry about it. The other kind of mistake is it's perfectly benign. I should attack it as if it was dangerous. And that's what autoimmune disease. When someone doesn't have Bifidobacteria infantis, their immune system is not developing appropriately. That means it's greater risk, doesn't mean they're going to get autoimmune disease, but they're at greater risk of having it. We now have very convincing data that a part of the problem with autoimmune disease is the bacteria in your gut in this early developmental stage. And lo and behold, throughout human history, Bifidobacteria infantis, that's been the one. It's been predicted that if we had not found, would probably have been extinct within the next generation. It wouldn't have been findable at all in a few years.

[Bruce German]

You know, I just think it's crazy that there's this like, Y shaped bacteria, right, that no one ever paid attention to, that we almost wiped off the face of the earth by accident, that basically has this completely symbiotic relationship with us. I mean, like, you know, we obviously in school we learn about like the birds and the bees and pollination and coral and algae. But like, who knew that like, our babies have symbiotic relationships with this random bacteria. Like, that's Silvi, that's Lulu's baby. Like Sylvie is a symbiote with this bacteria. I mean, it's blowing my mind. And if you really think back, like, if you really go back in time, let's go back 500,000 years, which is when we broke off to become human. Bruce was telling me, if you go back, you know, trace the genetic lineage of Bifidobacterium infantis, it broke off from its predecessor at exactly the same time, which to me is crazy because that means, like, we have literally co evolved with this bacteria. I mean, like, come on, like, this is our best friend. This is like our oldest and best friend that we've ever had.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay, can we, can we, Sorry, can We scratch the emo music. Okay? I mean, you. You put a picture of my baby up, and I might say it's a beautiful thought, but you've gathered like a sad story here. I mean, Brian was shut down, the study was shut down. Who knows how long if it's ever gonna go? I mean, Bruce is eloquent, but his business sounds kind of on the rocks. And I feel like. And then even if we could get it back, there are all kinds of parents who can't breastfeed for different reason, economic reason, body reasons, whatever it may be. So, like, aren't we just being kept away from this majestic, beautiful friend? Aren't we just. Isn't this just sad and we're doomed to be unhealthy.

[Brian Scottellini]

At this point in time? No. If you look back at the history of scientific discoveries, especially related to health, they're always turbulent. This is a fundamentally different way of thinking. It's now been shown that babies with Bifidobacteria infantis respond better to a vaccine than babies who haven't. So that's not just protection. That's enhancing health in ways we didn't even think about before. If you look back, how science moves, it's moving inexorably forward. It's just a matter of time.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay? This guy can milk hope out of any situation. I guess.

[Bruce German]

Another pie. Well, I guess with that, you know, we only have one thing left to do, honestly, is we have the bifidobacterium here. We are going to try some. Yeah, no pressure, obviously, but if you guys want to try some, we can all cheers to bifid together. Just talk to your bartender.

[Latif Nasser]

They're going to be bringing them out, passing it. Raise your hand if you want it. Once again, you do not have to. Radiolab doesn't necessarily condone it.

[Lulu Miller]

Wait, you had the bifid there, was it. Was it alive?

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah, it was the real stuff. It'll bloom if you drink it. It was like in these little bags. It's kind of just like the smelly powder that Shara had.

[Lulu Miller]

Wow. What did it smell like?

[Latif Nasser]

It was like fish tank light, you know?

[Lulu Miller]

Sure.

[Latif Nasser]

And we mixed it in with some water and handed out shots.

[Lulu Miller]

Oh, wow.

[Latif Nasser]

To anyone who wanted. And while we were handing out these little shot cups, I made the band jam out along with. And I think we need to bring in an instrument that has never been played on Radiolab ever before. Hold on. Can you light me?

[Bruce German]

Yeah, yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

My breast pump.

[Bruce German]

Wow. Remix.

[Latif Nasser]

Come forward. Okay, ready? It was not hooked up. It was not all the way hooked.

[Lulu Miller]

Up, you weren't pumping on.

[Latif Nasser]

I wasn't actually pumping milk.

[Bruce German]

It's very goth, industrial. Goth vibes.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah. It's like a little steampunk. Oh, my God, this sound again and again. Why capitalism? Why?

[Bruce German]

Don't drink it yet. We're gonna drink it together. We're gonna drink it together.

[Lulu Miller]

Did everyone. Did people want it?

[Latif Nasser]

Actually, a lot of people, Yeah. I think, like, a lot of people. Most people did it.

[Bruce German]

Turn that music down.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay.

[Bruce German]

All right. Cheers, everyone.

[Latif Nasser]

Cheers.

[Aver Mitra]

Okay.

[Latif Nasser]

We really do it. Okay.

[Brian Scottellini]

What did we actually drink just now?

[Latif Nasser]

Straight up bacteria. Who just asked? Yeah, you just ingested, like, I don't know, is it powdered, dried bacteria? It's those little Y shapes. What did we drink, Bruce?

[Brian Scottellini]

Yeah. Bifidobacteria longum, subspecies infantis.

[Latif Nasser]

Like, as I drank this stuff down, I thought about how we were all in the room at that moment, literally physically reuniting with this bacteria that we had been with for so long that we might be starting to lose. But the more I started thinking about that whole chain of things that bifid do in a baby's body, I realized I actually had one last question for Bruce. So this is sort of an emotional question, but in this moment of breastfeeding, which I have found to be one of the most, like, connecting experiences of my life, you're saying what's happening is the baby, which used to be inside me, is learning. It's building itself away from me, from other things. Like, it's actually a physiological moment of a wall being built, of disconnection.

[Brian Scottellini]

Well, it's true, but. Okay, but you're paying forward so that that infant can be successful. The genius of milk is we tended to think milk is protective. Of course. Darwin, survival. It's more than that. Evolution is driving not just survival, it's success lifelong. What you're doing is providing the means for your baby to be successful its whole life.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah, blah, blah, blah. Give them roots and wings so they can fly away. I only heard the first part. I'm so sad. Go up. Okay. For our last cover.

[Lulu Miller]

Well, despite your sadness, that story was great. That was a really fun event. I never heard of any of that. Thank you for playing it for us. And thank you also to avere and bifid.

[Latif Nasser]

Yes. And, you know, I should say, this was not our first live show that we have done with Avir. You, of course, did one last summer called how to Save a Life.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was the CPR one. That was also a blast. It also ended with music we had the entire audience learning how to do CPR at the end to the perfect beats per minute of Staying Alive.

[Latif Nasser]

They've been really, really fun. And we are thinking of these live shows with Avir as a series that we're calling Viscera, because every story is about something going on in your body, in your viscera, and it will have some kind of visceral experience.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah. So if you do. If you do have a body, want to learn more about it, keep an eye out. We'll like, maybe we're coming to a city near you.

[Latif Nasser]

Yep.

[Lulu Miller]

And last thing. Thanks, Lulu. We got to do the thanks.

[Latif Nasser]

No, we already did them on stage. Okay, well, it is time now, as we say.

[Lulu Miller]

All right, no problem. Okay. My work day is done.

[Latif Nasser]

Someone once said, if you want to hide a piece of information, put it in the credits to a podcast because no one will listen. And yet you're all stuck here.

[Bruce German]

So.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay. So huge. Thank you. He's not even on here. But to aver Mitra, for bringing us this story. To Bruce German, to Brian Scottellini right here on stage. To Shara Sheldon and all her hijinks. To our musicians, Dylan Keith and Yvonne Bonman. Burn Biggest thank you to the Radiolab team lurking in the background. Stand up. Harry Fortuna, Sarah Sandbach, Soren Wheeler, Pat Walters, Anissa Vitza, Jeremy Bloom, and George Wellington. Speaking of Radiolab, I would like two OG members, Robert Krulwich and Ellen Horn, to give a stand up. Our original executive producer. They are here. We love you. None of us would be here without you. Everybody here at Caveat, thank you for bringing us here. Tip your waiters, order more drinks. We would love to come back. And finally, of course, to our Radiolab members who said there are people watching us on a screen. Hi.

[Aver Mitra]

If anyone's still there.

[Latif Nasser]

Thanks. You make everything we do possible. And now aver you have a couple, and I need someone else to read. The very last thing we need. A listener. Anyone. An audience member willing. Okay, come on down.

[Bruce German]

Some quick thank yous. This story actually came to me from a Radiolab listener named Tim Brown. So cool. So thanks to him for sharing this story. David Mills, Carlita La Brea, Bethany Henrick, Danielle Lemay, Katie Hind, Jennifer Smilowitz, Angela Zivkovic, Daniela Barill, and Mark Underwood, all the scientists involved in this research that I wasn't able to shout out before.

[Aver Mitra]

Hi, I'm Alexa Petrie and I'm from Halifax, Nova Scotia. And here are the staff credits. Radiolab was created by Jad Abumrad, and is edited by Soren Wheeler. Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser are our co hosts. Dylan Keefe is our director of Sound design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Bressler, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Maria Paz Gutierrez, Sindhu Napa, Samandan, Matt Kielty, Annie McEwen, Alex Neeson, Sara Kari, Sarah Sandbach, Anissa Vitza, Arianne Weck, Pat Walters, and Molly Webster. Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger and Natalie Middleton.

[Latif Nasser]

Well done. Thank you all.

[Bruce German]

Thank you so much.

[Latif Nasser]

Have a great night.

[Aver Mitra]

Hi, this is Laura calling from Cleveland, Ohio.

[Latif Nasser]

Leadership support for Radiolab Science programming is provided by the Simmons foundation and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by.

[Aver Mitra]

The Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

[Latif Nasser]

NYC now delivers the most up to date local news from WNYC and Gothamist every morning, midday and evening with three updates a day. Listeners get breaking news, top headlines and in depth coverage from across New York City. By sponsoring programming like NYC now, you'll.

[Lulu Miller]

Reach our community of dedicated listeners with.

[Latif Nasser]

Premium messaging and an uncluttered audio experience. Visit sponsorship wnyc.org to get in touch and find out more.