The Holy Shiver

Summary

Radiolab – "The Holy Shiver"
Date: July 10, 2026
Host: Lulu Miller
Guests and Contributors: Soren Wheeler, Carmen Maria Machado, Lauren Brown, Bonnie Tsoi, Felix Schouler, Nico Rogenci, Maria Paz Gutierrez, Gabby Santis

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Episode Overview

Theme:
This episode dives into the mysterious phenomenon of goosebumps, particularly those "unexplained" chills we get not from cold or fear, but from music, art, awe, or deeply emotional moments. Spurred by a question from acclaimed writer Carmen Maria Machado, hosts and guests explore the origins, mechanisms, and potential significance of these "holy shivers," weaving personal stories, evolutionary biology, neuroscience, and cutting-edge psychological research.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Personal Mystery: Lauren's Goosebumps

• Carmen Maria Machado shares how her partner Lauren Brown experiences goosebumps frequently, often in patchy patterns and in response to a wide range of emotional triggers—joy, sadness, sports, and intimacy.
  • "If I was a different kind of person, I would be like, I'm haunted." – Lauren Brown [03:34]
  • The term "the holy shiver" comes from Carmen's research—a phrase historically used for profound, charged goosebumps.

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2. The Physiology: Evolution of Goosebumps

• Bonnie Tsoi (science writer):
  • Explains goosebumps' evolutionary background—the arrector pili muscle contracts to raise body hair in mammals, originally for warmth and to appear larger (fight or flight response).
    • "So, you know, it's muscle as existential state." – Bonnie Tsoi [06:53]
  • Notes the modern "leftover" function in humans and the remarkable shift to non-survival triggers (music, awe, beauty).

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3. Why Non-Physical Chills?: The Startling Shift

• Today, humans get these shivers from moments of awe, beauty, and deep emotional resonance—music, nature, art, kindness, and even intellectual breakthroughs.
  • Bonnie emphasizes: "It is like body intelligence – my body and mind coming together to figure out what I am feeling." [10:26]

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4. The Science: Aesthetic Chills and the Limits of Cognition

• Guests: Felix Schouler & Nico Rogenci, Institute for Advanced Consciousness Studies.

  • Aesthetic chills ("God bumps"):
    • Moments of psychological origin where one encounters awe or contradiction to deeply held beliefs.
    • Felix's theory: "Chills may be what it feels like to update your meaning making process on such a large scale." – Soren Wheeler [17:41]
    • "It's when you sort of touch the limits of your knowledge... the limits of cognition." – Felix Schouler [16:36]

• Triggers Identified:

  • Large choral music, sports victories, acts of kindness, inspirational speeches (e.g., Mr. Rogers, Carl Sagan), and even Thai commercials!
  • [20:36] – "The number one trigger: Leonard Cohen's 'Hallelujah,' performed by Rufus Wainwright and choir."
  • Their research could induce chills in the lab in 75% of people using specific triggers [20:49].

• Bespoke Chills Playlist:

  • Participants fill out a survey about their beliefs and personalities. The system then predicts and delivers a video or audio trigger likely to give them chills, with 73.5% accuracy [22:13].

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5. Neurological Findings: Chills and Psychedelic States

• Via EEG studies, moments of chills in the brain look almost indistinguishable from psychedelic experiences—signs of increased neurological complexity and "disorder" [22:41].
  • Lulu Miller: "Neurologically, it really makes good on their 'limits of cognition' thing – they're watching a brain just go haywire." [23:02]

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6. Chills, Motivation, and Mental Health

• Schema Surgery and Sadness:

  • Chills may be more than a byproduct—they might signal the brain that it’s time to update deeply held worldviews.
  • The researchers explore using chills as a way to "hack" the brain into a state of readiness to learn or change ("schema surgery") [24:25].
  • Potential dark sides are mentioned: extremist groups exploiting chills via propaganda videos for behavioral activation [24:34].

• Early Experiments with Depression:

  • Chills-evoking stimuli were shown to people with depression, especially those with anhedonia (lack of interest/pleasure).
  • Remarkable short-term changes: after experiencing chills, participants became more motivated (e.g., started choosing higher rewards in experiments) [27:41].
    • "You get the chills and your certainty melts. And then you could jump through this window to change your life and get your depression in remission." – Lulu Miller [28:17]
  • Caution: This is very early research and not a standalone cure [28:51].

---

7. The App Experience: Testing the Chills Engine

• Maria Paz Gutierrez tries the researchers’ online app. Despite skepticism ("this is mid"), she experiences genuine goosebumps while listening to a song related to past travel memories [31:31].
  • She reflects on how these chills reconnect her to memories of safety and beauty, even against a daily narrative of danger and fear [33:46].
  • "It does feel like if you take the time to notice these moments... it might just loosen you up and get you out the door in a slightly different way." – Nico Rogenci [34:05]

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8. Personal Connections and the Shared Language of Chills

• Carmen and Lauren reflect on how noticing and discussing Lauren’s chills helps Carmen feel closer and more “known” to Lauren.

  • "It's almost like your body is tapping on your brain and being like, hello?... it's, like, this place where... I just feel a little bit more known." – Lauren Brown [38:22]

• They share a moving moment watching Alysa Liu’s triumphant Olympic figure skating routine—both experience "full body chills," using this as a metaphor for shared understanding and awe [37:09-38:03].

  • Memorable Quote:
    • "People are the same to me as... God, because it's like, this unknown. But with Lauren, it's like I can get as physically close as humanly possible." – Gabby Santis [38:18]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Sometimes I think about it and I'm like, if I was a different kind of person, I would be like, I'm haunted." – Lauren Brown [03:34]
• "So, you know, it's muscle as existential state." – Bonnie Tsoi [06:53]
• "Chills may very well be what it feels like to update your meaning making process on such a large scale." – Soren Wheeler [17:41]
• "You get the chills and your certainty melts. And then you could jump through this window to change your life and get your depression in remission." – Lulu Miller [28:17]
• "It does feel like if you take the time to notice these moments, give your brain the space to catch up with your body, which is clearly saying something, I think there's value in that." – Nico Rogenci [34:05]

---

Important Timestamps

• [00:49] — Carmen introduces the goosebumps mystery with Lauren
• [04:01] — "The Holy Shiver" term discussed
• [06:32] — Bonnie Tsoi on the arrector pili muscle and evolutionary roots
• [10:26] — The body’s intelligence in emotional goosebumps
• [14:16] — Introduction of scientists specializing in aesthetic chills
• [16:36] — Chills as limits of cognition
• [20:36] — Most potent chill-inducing stimulus identified
• [22:41] — EEG findings: Chills ≈ psychedelic state
• [24:25] — "Schema surgery" and recruiting chills for change
• [27:41] — Chills and depression symptom improvement
• [31:31] — Reporter’s personal chill experience
• [38:03] — Chills as shared emotional language

---

Closing Thoughts

Takeaway:
Goosebumps—the "holy shiver"—are not just relics of our icy, primitive past. They're signals from the body that we are encountering something deeply meaningful, something that challenges or expands the framework of our beliefs and feelings. They may even, in the future, become a surprising tool in mental health treatment or a compass toward personal renewal. For now, they remain a magical, mysterious form of communication between our bodies, minds, and the profound moments of being alive.

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For More: Check radiolab.org for links to the referenced routines, commercials, and writings.
Books Mentioned:

• "On Muscle" by Bonnie Tsoi
• Carmen Maria Machado’s upcoming novel, "A Brief and Fearful Star" (2027)

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[Summary crafted with original tone, attribution, and attention to podcast narrative flow. Covers all main discussions, insights, and personal stories from the episode.]

Transcript

[Lulu Miller]

Radiolab is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Insurance isn't one size fits all. That's why drivers have enjoyed Progressive's name your price tool for years. Now, with the name your price tool, you tell them what you want to pay, and they'll show you options that fit your budget. So whether you're picking out your first policy or just looking for something that works better for you and your family, they'll make it easy to see your options. Visit progressive.com, find a rate that works for you with the name your price tool. Progressive Casualty Insurance company and affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law. Oh, wait, you're listening. Okay.

[Soren Wheeler]

All right.

[Carmen Maria Machado]

Okay.

[Bonnie Tsoi]

All right.

[Felix Schouler]

You're listening to Radiolab Radio Lab from wnyc.

[Lauren Brown]

See?

[Gabby Santis]

Yep.

[Lulu Miller]

Hey, it's Lulu. Gonna kick off today with a little ghost story for you. So there's this woman, and she's going through weight loss surgery, and when she gets home, she starts hearing these gurgles and creaks and realizes she is being stalked by the former bits of herself, her flesh, that she has cut away. Or there is a house that is maze like and haunted by quiet cruelties that occur in between you and your partner. And it feels like there is no way out. These are some of the stories of the prize winning writer, Carmen Maria Machado. Some of them are true, some of them are fiction. All of them are charged with this sense of spookiness. I have spent hours of my life being pleasantly spooked by her. And so I was totally delighted when she wrote into our show wondering about something that had happened with her partner of four years, Lauren Brown.

[Gabby Santis]

You're rolling. Yes.

[Lulu Miller]

That spooked her.

[Gabby Santis]

Should I.

[Lulu Miller]

Should I say.

[Lauren Brown]

You can say.

[Gabby Santis]

The first time Lauren and I hooked up with each other, I noticed goosebumps on her body right before she, like, had an orgasm. But the pattern was really unusual. Like, it wasn't just universal goosebumps. It was these kind of like, leopard spot goosebumps. Sometimes I'll, like, touch Lauren on the arm and, like, she'll get goosebumps, like, where I've touched her.

[Nico Rogenci]

So it's like you leave a trace.

[Lulu Miller]

Radiolab reporter Maria Paz Gutierrez.

[Lauren Brown]

Yeah, yeah.

[Carmen Maria Machado]

Wow.

[Lulu Miller]

And editor Soren Wheeler, who sat in with Carmen and Lauren to hear the tale.

[Gabby Santis]

Sometimes you have. You call them crispy ones, which is like, they're really, really, really pointy.

[Lauren Brown]

Extra crispy is like, I say that you could, like, grate Parmesan or like, zest a lemon on me. Like, they just are, like, so intense and Feel really, like, sharp.

[Gabby Santis]

Right. So, like, as soon as we started seeing each other, I think I was just like, really paying attention. Like, I was just like, I've never seen this and this has never happened to me. Like, I mean, you have goosebumps, like all day, like in some form or another.

[Lauren Brown]

Yeah, I'm pretty consistently getting them.

[Lulu Miller]

And what stuck out to Carmen wasn't just how often Lauren was getting goosebumps, but it seemed like they would prickle up in response to almost contradictory things.

[Lauren Brown]

You know, watching a sports highlight and music.

[Gabby Santis]

But then also, like, sometimes it's like moments that are like, sad or like it doesn't actually like the same emotion every time.

[Lauren Brown]

Yeah.

[Gabby Santis]

And so it was just sort of in my head and then I was like, even more closely watching Lauren and being like, what is this?

[Lauren Brown]

Sometimes I think about it and I'm like, if I was a different kind of person, I would be like, I'm haunted.

[Lulu Miller]

So Carmen started researching goosebumps and writing about them. She's now years deep into a novel with a title that comes from an old fashioned word for them.

[Gabby Santis]

The Holy Shiver.

[Lulu Miller]

The Holy Shiver, I like that.

[Lauren Brown]

Yeah.

[Lulu Miller]

It's a term that's been used by scientists to describe the kind of goosebumps a prey animal gets when it realizes it's being watched by a predator, but also that the predator gets just before it goes in for the kill.

[Gabby Santis]

Like, it's arousal that, like, connects things like sex and fear and pleasure and excitement. And so thinking about that, like, it was just sort of in my head. And then I was like, what is actually happening in your brain that's moving from, like, for whatever the reason is, it's moving from this neurological impulse into your body and why. And then I was like, surely Radiolab has done an episode on Goosebumps. That feels like a very Radiolab thing

[Lulu Miller]

to do, but it turns out we have not.

[Gabby Santis]

And so, yeah, so here we are.

[Lulu Miller]

So today on Radiolab, we right this wrong and bring you an episode all

[Felix Schouler]

about Char de Poul or Frison in Spanish. Calo frio Goosebumps.

[Bonnie Tsoi]

Sometimes they're called a skin orgasm.

[Lulu Miller]

Really?

[Soren Wheeler]

I've heard someone say, God bumps.

[Lulu Miller]

We head out on a journey to find out why do we get them in these more mysterious situations. And what, if anything, are they trying to tell us?

[Bonnie Tsoi]

We're not necessarily aware, but actually they're kind of magical.

[Lulu Miller]

Some answers, some chills, and some, honestly, incredibly sci fi sounding science. Scientific experimentation coming your way. Pause. Soren, take us away.

[Nico Rogenci]

Uh, okay, so reporting Journey.

[Carmen Maria Machado]

Journey off on A journey.

[Nico Rogenci]

Right, right, right.

[Felix Schouler]

Hi.

[Nico Rogenci]

Hi. So our first stop. Thank you so much for being here with us.

[Bonnie Tsoi]

I'm so excited.

[Nico Rogenci]

Was science writer Bonnie Tsoi.

[Bonnie Tsoi]

Bonnie Tsoi, I'm a journalist. I have written a lot about activity like movement, like your body moving, what that actually does to your brain. And I've actually.

[Nico Rogenci]

We called Bonnie up because she actually wrote this book. It's called On Muscle. And it's sort of like this journey through all the muscles of your body.

[Bonnie Tsoi]

Your biceps, your butt, your heart and blood vessels and your gut.

[Nico Rogenci]

And she told us that after writing this book, she became obsessed with this one particular muscle.

[Bonnie Tsoi]

Arrector pili.

[Lulu Miller]

Yes, arrector pili.

[Bonnie Tsoi]

So erectus to raise and pili hair.

[Nico Rogenci]

They're the muscle that give us our goosebumps. That would not. That was not what I would have expected. Like, you spend all this time writing a book.

[Carmen Maria Machado]

Yeah. There's so many muscles out there, guys.

[Bonnie Tsoi]

I know, I know. So many sexy muscles, so many very obvious muscles and big muscles. And I, of course, went for the smallest and the weirdest. And I. Why, I think the erector pili give us so much information. Right. About how we're doing and feeling. And I love that. I love that it's muscle as existential state, but backing up a little bit.

[Nico Rogenci]

Okay, so just to quickly explain the history of this muscle. Around 200 million years ago or so, mammals evolved from reptiles. In the process, they evolved hair or, you know, fur. And then around the same time, mammals

[Bonnie Tsoi]

evolved this little muscle fiber, little tiny muscle.

[Nico Rogenci]

It's attached to the base of every hair follicle underneath the skin. That little muscles default is to kind of just chill.

[Bonnie Tsoi]

Yeah, exactly. You can kind of think about it being relaxed against your skin. Unless the brain is registering, like something

[Nico Rogenci]

dangerous, that animal feels a threat. Let's say that animal's hit with like a sudden cold wind or predators. It catches a predator or a competitor right at the corner of its eye.

[Bonnie Tsoi]

In that moment, the brain triggers this automatic response.

[Nico Rogenci]

It would send this immediate unconscious signal to all the different hair follicles all across the body. And then.

[Bonnie Tsoi]

And then all those tiny muscles contract, you know, causing your hair to stand on end, giving you that goosebump appearance.

[Nico Rogenci]

Now, that could be a really useful thing because raised hair traps air next to the skin, so there's like a

[Bonnie Tsoi]

layer of warm air that's insulating, keeping

[Nico Rogenci]

animals just a little bit warmer. Or it was also just useful if they were about to get into a fight.

[Bonnie Tsoi]

You know, if you have a cat, you see, like when Your cat gets agitated. Like, the hair goes up, like, like, I'm bigger. I'm, you know, I'm dangerous.

[Nico Rogenci]

But for us humans, you know, this

[Bonnie Tsoi]

response is kind of vestigial because we don't have that much hair anymore.

[Nico Rogenci]

Not very useful.

[Bonnie Tsoi]

Or most of us don't have that much hair anymore. So, uh, it's not gonna really. It's not really effective.

[Nico Rogenci]

And so we end up with little bumps on our mostly hairless skin. But the really weird thing is that

[Bonnie Tsoi]

as we have evolved as a species,

[Nico Rogenci]

we humans started using this automatic survival reflex for things that seem to have nothing to do with our survival.

[Bonnie Tsoi]

So, music, right? A swelling music. Or like a really emotional scene in a movie, or like big places like the ocean or the Grand Canyon at the edge of a cliff, right? And for us as humans, again, it's like less about the cold and less about the fear and more about the way we experience the world.

[Carmen Maria Machado]

But, I mean, I'm still working in my head to connect these different categories of things. Are the goosebumps that used to just make hair stand up for thermal reasons and the goosebumps that used to make hair stand up for physical appearance reasons now suddenly standing up for some. Or is there one reason behind it all? Or is there?

[Bonnie Tsoi]

I think, I mean, I hear what you're saying, right? How is this hair standing up for cold and fear now giving us this emotional component? But I think that to me, it is intelligence. It is like body intelligence that I am, like, paying attention. I think it's about my body and my mind kind of coming together to try to figure out, like, what it is that I am feeling in that moment. What is it? I don't know what it is, but I'm paying attention.

[Nico Rogenci]

Which, you know, it sort of made sense to us like, that the body is trying to tell us to pay attention, but just left us with this question. Like, what exactly is the body trying to tell us to. To pay attention to?

[Lulu Miller]

We'll get to that right after this short break. Radiolab is supported by Capital One with no fees or minimums on checking accounts. It's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs, even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet terms apply. See capitalone.com bankeye capital1na member FDIC. This episode is supported by BetterHelp. Hey there, Lulu here. So, apparently every year, BetterHelp does a survey called the State of the Stigma Report, where they survey over 2,000Americans trying to figure out how people feel about seeking mental health support. Good news first, 85% of the people surveyed said that seeking mental health support is a good thing, which is significantly up from last year's result, which. Okay, small study, but still fabulous. Refreshing. Take that, Stigma. Boom. The only bummer is that 74% of those same people said society discourages people from seeking the mental health support that they need. Why is that society? I say let's all do what we can to destigmatize seeking professional help for mental health. I mean, I seek professional help for my teeth, for my hair. Why not get professional help for what's going on on the inside of the head? You know, iron out some worries, get a little support. But seriously, if a friend or loved one comes to you seeming a little more overwhelmed or blue or scared than usual, why not encourage them to seek help? Praise them for doing it. And if they don't know where to begin, one thing you could do is suggest betterhelp. A short questionnaire gets them matched with one of over 30,000 fully licensed therapists available at any time of day at the push of a button. And if they don't like the first one they try, remind them that they can switch therapists at any time, as many times as it takes to find the right fit. Because mental health is important and none of us can do it on our own. So for any of you listening to this who are curious about therapy but worried about judgment, I say don't let stigma stand in the way of support. Start therapy with BetterHelp. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com Radiolab that's betterhelp.com Radiolab

[Gabby Santis]

the fatal shooting of a teenager at a protest in Seattle has gone unsolved for six years.

[Felix Schouler]

This is open in your face.

[Nico Rogenci]

How are there no answers?

[Gabby Santis]

Our investigation has uncovered new evidence and witnesses who say they've never talked to police.

[Felix Schouler]

Did police ever call you?

[Soren Wheeler]

Not once.

[Gabby Santis]

Listen to We Keep Us Safe, a new true crime series on the embedded podcast from npr.

[Lulu Miller]

Lulu, Radiolab. Goosebumps. We are back with reporter Maria Paz Gutierrez, who has gotten a little slight stuck trying to figure out what exactly is going on with these special kind of goosebumps that humans get that have nothing to do with being cold or afraid.

[Nico Rogenci]

But then, lucky for us, E is rolling.

[Soren Wheeler]

Okay.

[Nico Rogenci]

We ran to a couple scientists. Hello.

[Felix Schouler]

Hello. Good morning. Hi.

[Nico Rogenci]

Who have been studying this very particular kind of goosebumps, which scientists call aesthetic chills.

[Felix Schouler]

You know, shivers of psychological origins.

[Soren Wheeler]

I've heard someone say God bumps.

[Felix Schouler]

God bumps.

[Soren Wheeler]

Yeah. God bumps.

[Nico Rogenci]

So anyway, these two guys.

[Soren Wheeler]

I can go first. Yeah.

[Gabby Santis]

Hi.

[Carmen Maria Machado]

Are.

[Nico Rogenci]

Nico.

[Soren Wheeler]

I'm Nico Rogenci. I'm currently the research director at the Institute for Advanced Consciousness Studies.

[Lulu Miller]

Ooh, okay.

[Nico Rogenci]

And his partner in crime.

[Felix Schouler]

Hi, I'm Felix. I'm a senior research scientist at the Institute for Advanced Consciousness Studies.

[Nico Rogenci]

Neuroscientist Felix Schouler.

[Felix Schouler]

Yeah, so.

[Nico Rogenci]

So why goosebumps?

[Felix Schouler]

So me, when I started my PhD,

[Nico Rogenci]

Felix says back when he was starting out in grad school, I needed a

[Felix Schouler]

problem to work on.

[Nico Rogenci]

He'd been told that when it comes to these aesthetic chills, nobody really knows

[Felix Schouler]

what they are and why they occur. And I thought that would be a good problem to work on.

[Nico Rogenci]

So his first step was to try to figure out exactly what triggers these kinds of chills.

[Felix Schouler]

First, I started asking everybody, what gives you chills? And building sort of this database of chill stimuli.

[Nico Rogenci]

And he found things that a lot of us would expect.

[Felix Schouler]

Giant sport games in the stadium.

[Nico Rogenci]

People talk about being in the crowd when some impossible comeback happened.

[Bonnie Tsoi]

Totally.

[Felix Schouler]

Religion is a big thing.

[Nico Rogenci]

Personal religious revelations, sudden acts of kindness from a stranger.

[Lulu Miller]

That always gives me chills.

[Nico Rogenci]

Yeah, totally.

[Felix Schouler]

Very meaningful conversations with people on topics that you care deeply about, or even

[Nico Rogenci]

these particular moments where you're experiencing music

[Felix Schouler]

or poetry, art in general, but also science. A lot of physicists report that they experience chills when they discover concepts that allows them to make sense of a wide range of experiences.

[Lulu Miller]

It's like the intellectual version of the holy shiver. Like someone coming upon the prey of their idea, and then, phew, like they're about to get it, you know?

[Nico Rogenci]

Yeah, kinda. I mean, you know, after, like, years of doing this research, talking to a lot of people, reading a lot of

[Felix Schouler]

books, and documenting moments where Felix says

[Nico Rogenci]

he landed on a theory, it's when

[Felix Schouler]

you sort of touch the limits of your knowledge. So I guess another way to think about chills is the limits of cognition.

[Lulu Miller]

Oh, I love that. Like, the limits of cognition, like, cannot compute.

[Carmen Maria Machado]

Wow.

[Felix Schouler]

Yeah.

[Nico Rogenci]

But the key is, Felix says, is when the thing that you cannot compute is a deeply held belief. The basic idea is that we all walk around carrying these very broad generalizations about how the world works. Anything from what goes up must come down to the world is a dangerous place, or humans are fundamentally good, or money equals power. We rely on these beliefs to help us navigate the world. And Felix says that when we run across some experience or feeling that challenges one of those deeply held beliefs, that's when we get the chills.

[Felix Schouler]

Yeah.

[Soren Wheeler]

Oh, yeah. So when I was exposed to some of Felix's work, it kind of clicked that it's like, oh, wow. Chills may very well be what it feels like to update your meaning making process on such a large scale.

[Nico Rogenci]

Now, at the time, this was just an idea.

[Felix Schouler]

An idea in Nico's brain.

[Carmen Maria Machado]

And I.

[Nico Rogenci]

So they started thinking, okay, how do

[Felix Schouler]

we operationalize that idea and try to get empirical data so that we can do science?

[Nico Rogenci]

So they decided what they needed to do was get people in a lab so they could give them chills.

[Lulu Miller]

Induce it.

[Nico Rogenci]

Induce it.

[Lulu Miller]

But doesn't it feel like that's uninducible? Like it's such a private, spiritual thing?

[Nico Rogenci]

Not on the Internet. So Felix created this algorithm that can

[Felix Schouler]

span through YouTube networks and look at millions of videos and analyze all of the comments.

[Lulu Miller]

Oh, I'm so sad right now. Okay, keep going.

[Nico Rogenci]

Specifically, they were looking for when people

[Felix Schouler]

mention chills, shivers, goosebumps.

[Nico Rogenci]

So they gather up all these videos. There are these, like, very famous speeches from very famous people, like Mr. Rogers, Carl Sagan's, the Pale Blue Dot speech. Some of them are just straight up life coach inspirational talks and footage of whales breaching, stuff like that. And one that just completely I did not expect was

[Felix Schouler]

commercials from Thailand.

[Carmen Maria Machado]

Wow.

[Soren Wheeler]

Yeah.

[Carmen Maria Machado]

Whatever their Madison Avenue crew is has the finger on the pulse of chill.

[Felix Schouler]

Seems like it.

[Lulu Miller]

Okay, wait, I have seen one of these, I think, and it's about this guy who, like, helps all these strangers. And it totally worked. It totally gave me chills. It's a very good commercial.

[Nico Rogenci]

What that probably means is that you've been walking around with this belief that people suck and that they're not generous or kind. So that's great. I mean, it's a pretty direct hit on your worldview. But they also said that a lot of these videos. Were just, like, straight up music,

[Felix Schouler]

a lot of choral music.

[Nico Rogenci]

Especially these moments where.

[Felix Schouler]

The soprano singer suddenly takes over the entire orchestra.

[Lulu Miller]

There is something, like, out of reach, you know, beyond in that sound.

[Nico Rogenci]

Yeah. So they gather up all these videos from online, and they actually brought people into their lab and had them watch these videos so they could, like, see, like, which ones make the scale skin actually prickle. And they actually told us there's, like, one video that was, like, the number one trigger.

[Felix Schouler]

Alleluia by Leonard Cohen, song by Rufus

[Soren Wheeler]

Wainwright with a large collection of people

[Felix Schouler]

that is sort of singing along.

[Soren Wheeler]

Yeah.

[Felix Schouler]

You know, this stimulus, for example, will give chills to 75 people out of 100.

[Nico Rogenci]

Anyway, at the end of all this, Nico and Felix, we were able to

[Felix Schouler]

identify 300 stimuli that reliably induced chills in hundreds of people.

[Lulu Miller]

Oh, my God.

[Nico Rogenci]

So then they started showing people these videos in their lab.

[Felix Schouler]

3,000 participants in Southern California with one

[Nico Rogenci]

extra little step in there.

[Felix Schouler]

Before we show them the stimulus, we ask them a range of questions. Personality questions, demographics questions.

[Nico Rogenci]

What are they?

[Felix Schouler]

All right, so please rate the following in terms of how much you agree or disagree with each statement. It is important to take care of people who are vulnerable.

[Nico Rogenci]

In particular, they were asking questions that sort of, like, help them zero in on some of those deeply held beliefs we just talked about.

[Felix Schouler]

Some people think I'm selfish and egotistic.

[Soren Wheeler]

What types of schemas are you running around with?

[Felix Schouler]

I often notice people who need help.

[Soren Wheeler]

Are you seeing everybody as connected ones or as independent players? And, you know, you need to get to the top.

[Felix Schouler]

I'm not as dependable or reliable as I should be.

[Nico Rogenci]

And based on how you answer these

[Felix Schouler]

questions, I find humor in almost everything.

[Nico Rogenci]

Nico and Felix can figure out what gives you chills.

[Lulu Miller]

Oh, interesting. So, like, you. Oh, well, you answered yes to this, so the cross out the sports one. But, ooh, that hallelujah chorus.

[Carmen Maria Machado]

Yeah.

[Lulu Miller]

So now they're making, like, the survey helps them create, like, a bespoke chills induced chills playlist.

[Nico Rogenci]

Yes.

[Felix Schouler]

And I can predict with 73.5% accuracy which of the stimulus is the best one for you to look at right now so that I can give you chills in my laboratory and study it under controlled conditions.

[Nico Rogenci]

And with their little bespoke chills machine, Nico and Felix have done a bunch of different studies. One of the coolest things for me was, like, they actually hooked people up to this, like, EEG machine so they could watch their brains while they get the chills.

[Soren Wheeler]

And the moments when you have chills are almost indistinguishable from a psychedelic experience.

[Lulu Miller]

Wait, what?

[Nico Rogenci]

The way they described it, it's like the level of complexity and disorder in the brain signals look like someone who's tripping.

[Lulu Miller]

Okay.

[Soren Wheeler]

That.

[Lulu Miller]

I mean, that really, really makes neurologically good on their limits of cognition thing. Like, they are watching a brain just go haywire.

[Nico Rogenci]

Yeah. You know, maybe some other people would have been like, okay, we sort of figured this out. Job well done. But Felix and Nico were not done.

[Lauren Brown]

Okay.

[Nico Rogenci]

Because one of the things that Nico and Felix had heard about was that it wasn't just like you understood something or something changed inside you and then you got the chills, but rather that the chills came first. Like, the chills were this signal to the rest of your brain and body to notice something.

[Felix Schouler]

A lot of physicists actually talk about how chills was instrumental in helping them understand the importance of some of the work that they were doing.

[Carmen Maria Machado]

So not so much I understand it and then get chills. But you seem to be saying that, like, oh, the chills helped me know that I had understood something.

[Felix Schouler]

Yeah.

[Soren Wheeler]

It's almost as though when you do get chills, it's this moment of calibration and orientation.

[Nico Rogenci]

So then they thought, well, if we can give people the chills, maybe we can use that to sort of hack the brain, reverse engineer someone into this moment where they're ready to rethink the way they think about the world.

[Felix Schouler]

We have a funky term for this. We call it schema surgery.

[Lulu Miller]

That sounds like something out of a dystopian novel.

[Nico Rogenci]

Yeah.

[Soren Wheeler]

I mean, a lot of terrorist recruitment videos leverage chills as this way of, like, showing this recognition of shared humanity and martyrdom for it. So this, like, full ego dissolution, that is a really dark underbelly of some of this. Right. Because it's so motivational. The behavioral activation that emerges after chills is really potent. But dystopian aspects aside. Right.

[Nico Rogenci]

But fortunately for us, what Felix and Nico are trying to do is use

[Felix Schouler]

chills as a novel form of treatment

[Nico Rogenci]

for major depressive disorder to help people with depression. Because when.

[Lulu Miller]

What?

[Nico Rogenci]

Because if you think about people who are depressed, like, they're usually stuck in their worldview. You know, they have these. What Nico called, or Felix called, these maladaptive beliefs.

[Carmen Maria Machado]

Right.

[Nico Rogenci]

Like, I'm alone in the world or I am bad.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah.

[Felix Schouler]

So negative self beliefs, negative beliefs about others, and then negative beliefs about the world in general. Like, the world is a dangerous place. You never know what's going to happen.

[Lulu Miller]

Totally. Just these, like, calcified certainties.

[Nico Rogenci]

Yeah.

[Felix Schouler]

And what we've been doing is trying to use the chill stimuli that we've identified to try and open up people's minds, then gather evidence that will go against these dysfunctional beliefs so that they basically expand the scope of their perception.

[Nico Rogenci]

This is early, early research, and they're trying to figure out a bunch of different things. But one of the studies that I thought was interesting focused on this one particular element of depression called anhedonia.

[Soren Wheeler]

And anhedonia. Right. Anhedonic. Like, they Lack this subdivision to kind of feel pleasure. And that impacts their sensitivity to reward.

[Nico Rogenci]

So let's say you ask them, hey,

[Soren Wheeler]

I have $5 in this hand and $20 in this hand. Pick one. Right. People with anhedonia, they're indifferent.

[Nico Rogenci]

They'd be like, I don't care. I really just don't care.

[Soren Wheeler]

They'll choose the 5 and 20 with kind of equal likelihood.

[Lulu Miller]

Huh.

[Nico Rogenci]

And this, they said, is one of the main characteristics of treatment resistant depression

[Felix Schouler]

for a simple reason is like, these are patients that are no longer motivated to take the necessary actions to get back to the business of life.

[Nico Rogenci]

So Felix and Nico, they take these people one by one into a little room, sit them in front of a computer screen, have them take the survey.

[Lulu Miller]

Yep.

[Nico Rogenci]

And then they're given their Internet content to watch. They have some moment where their body's going swoop. And after this experience, they put them through that reward task again. Now, what do you think? $5 or $20?

[Soren Wheeler]

They behave as if they were normal controls.

[Lulu Miller]

They're like, I want my $20.

[Nico Rogenci]

Yes, give me my 20 bucks.

[Soren Wheeler]

And, you know, a great majority of the participants that, you know, even just experienced one chill, but even more so, if you experience three chills, these people go on to then not even be able to qualify for the study in the first place. Right. So it's like a clinically significant amelioration of some of their symptoms.

[Lulu Miller]

Okay, can I. Let me un. Prickle my skin because I am feeling this. I am like, oh, my God. Like, you get the chills and your certainty melts. And then you could jump through this window to change your life and get your depression in remission. But then I'm also like, come on. No. You watch a couple videos a week of whales breaching and choruses singing, and then you're like, you can feel better from things that, like, full on meds and CBT therapy or whatever won't happen.

[Nico Rogenci]

I mean, it is early work. They're still doing these studies, but in most cases with depression, I imagine it's probably the right combination of a bunch of different things. Although one of the things they do in one of these studies is, like, after people get the chills, like, they ask them, what did you think about when you were experiencing the chills? They'll sort of ask them about their goals, like, the things they. They want to do or achieve. And it does look like people after these chills, at least for a moment or a while or whatever, are sort of a little bit more motivated to just, like, get up or out or do something. Just engage with the world. That, to me, feels like sort of part of the mix of things that keep you alive.

[Lulu Miller]

Suddenly makes me think, like, that this kind of chills is your. You know, it's maybe just as important as conserving warmth or looking bigger. Like it's pointing you almost like a compass toward. Toward where you need to go, what you need to engage with.

[Lauren Brown]

Mm.

[Nico Rogenci]

So in the midst of all of this, turns out Nico and Felix's experiment, where they give people chills, they actually have more recently turned this into, like, an app. I thought I should go and try this. I wanna see if you can actually give me chills.

[Lulu Miller]

All right. And so what happened?

[Nico Rogenci]

So I came into the studio. All right, here we are. Here we are. My friends and I opened the website. First question about you. What is your name? I took their little survey of questions. Would you describe yourself as someone who gets easily moved or touched? Not that very often.

[Gabby Santis]

And then.

[Nico Rogenci]

Okay, based on your answers, we've chosen. It served me this song. The Ushuaia alla Kyaka Gustavo. It's a song from a movie called Motorcycle Diaries. I've actually heard this song before, which, coincidentally, I had watched, like, two weeks before. And I was like, this is mid when I watched the movie. So to be honest, I wasn't feeling very optimistic about getting the chills. But then I was like, okay, I'm gonna actually sit with it. And I hit. It has this kind of, like, tinge of sadness and longing.

[Lauren Brown]

And

[Nico Rogenci]

then there's this part where this kind of, like, almost like a flute, like, instrument comes in. It almost sounds like a bird. And in that moment, it's so weird, I felt the goosebumps on my skin. I feel it in my legs making their way up to my arms. And then I was just, like, looking at my arm. And, yeah, they're nice and bumpy. That's so nice. And it happened again. I got, like, another wave. And I had just never had the experience of just, like, being, like, hit, like, woo, woo, woo.

[Felix Schouler]

What?

[Lulu Miller]

Do you remember at all what you were thinking about?

[Nico Rogenci]

I think in that moment, I was thinking about a trip that I took to Chile. And it reminded me of this day where I was. I think I was doing some kind of, like. Kind of like field recording of some musician playing a harp and, like, in the street. And it was just, like, reminded me of that version of myself. Like, I used to just travel alone all the time, different places all over Latin America. But, like, as you get older, like, you're just not as Crazy as you used to be, and it's uncomfortable. And I think that, for me, so much of reading the news creates this, like, illusion that, like, the world is, like, a really dangerous place. But I've been to these places. A lot of these places that, like, are quote, unquote dangerous. And even on just, like, a random street corner, there's so much beauty. And I also just have felt really safe.

[Lulu Miller]

So in that moment with, like, the prickled skin, the waves, was it sort of like those memories are in you, and those places might be out there?

[Nico Rogenci]

Mm.

[Lulu Miller]

And

[Lauren Brown]

go.

[Gabby Santis]

Just.

[Lulu Miller]

Just kind of go.

[Nico Rogenci]

Yeah, go. Go back out there.

[Gabby Santis]

Just go.

[Nico Rogenci]

And so regardless of how we label these goosebumps or exactly what triggers them, it does feel like if you do take the time to notice these moments, give your brain the space to catch up with your body, which is clearly saying something, I think there's value in that. It might just loosen you up and maybe even get you out the door in a slightly different way.

[Bonnie Tsoi]

Yeah.

[Lulu Miller]

Just like that alone. Don't just let them pass you by.

[Nico Rogenci]

Anyway, I think there is one more thing that's worth saying about goosebumps.

[Lulu Miller]

Hello.

[Lauren Brown]

Hi.

[Carmen Maria Machado]

We have now learned many different. I'm sure.

[Lauren Brown]

I can't wait to hear.

[Lulu Miller]

I'm so excited.

[Nico Rogenci]

But, yeah, it's something that actually came up when we called Lauren and Carmen back to tell them about all the things we'd learned.

[Carmen Maria Machado]

There's a little. A bunch of little muscles underneath our

[Nico Rogenci]

skin about the cold fear, survival reflex. And then in that moment, they stand up.

[Gabby Santis]

Got it.

[Nico Rogenci]

Okay. And about Nico and Felix's work on aesthetic chills or whatever.

[Carmen Maria Machado]

You answer these questions, and then they can deliver you the content that will get you to have the goosebumps.

[Gabby Santis]

Oh, my God.

[Lauren Brown]

Wow.

[Nico Rogenci]

And of course, about how these goosebumps are sort of the unconscious brain and the body's way of telling you that something important is going on that's, like, worth pausing and thinking about.

[Gabby Santis]

Right. You're, like, catching up to your body, basically. Yeah.

[Lauren Brown]

Yeah, that. That makes sense to me too. Even, like, thinking about moments where I find myself just, like, completely covered in goosebumps. My whole body feels it.

[Gabby Santis]

Yeah. It's almost like your body is, like, tapping on your brain and being like, hello? But I feel like, for me, it's, like this place where it's like.

[Nico Rogenci]

But then Carmen told us that even though she doesn't get the goosebumps all that often, she does now find herself thinking about what Lauren's goosebumps are saying, not just to Lauren, but to her

[Gabby Santis]

or, like, I'm assuming, when you saw, like, Alyssa Luke, I'm sure you had them then.

[Lauren Brown]

Oh, my.

[Nico Rogenci]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Gabby Santis]

I was out of town, and Lauren was texting me, being like, you have to watch it.

[Lauren Brown]

I am getting, like, patchy goosebumps right now. I have them on my legs, and I have some on my arms.

[Nico Rogenci]

Okay, quick context. Alisa Leo was a star figure skater when she was very young. Several years ago, and at sort of the height of her game, under all this pressure to win, she just straight up quit. She took some time off, and a couple years later, she came back to participate in the Winter Olympics.

[Bonnie Tsoi]

She said, I don't need a medal. I just need to be here and show you people what I can do.

[Lulu Miller]

But what she doesn't know, if she

[Gabby Santis]

does, that probably means a medal.

[Nico Rogenci]

And when you see her, she's clearly there on her own terms. She straight up kills it. Like, she gives a nearly perfect performance.

[Lulu Miller]

Once again, triple left, double action, double.

[Gabby Santis]

She looks so relaxed, so genuinely happy.

[Nico Rogenci]

Even the announcers are blown away.

[Lulu Miller]

She stays so loose and completely.

[Nico Rogenci]

The crowd is going wild.

[Lulu Miller]

That's a secret every athlete wants to solve.

[Nico Rogenci]

And when she finishes, she got off

[Gabby Santis]

the ice, and she was like, that's what I'm talking about.

[Nico Rogenci]

Get up.

[Gabby Santis]

I was like, I love. I know this feeling. I recognize that feeling. I love that feeling where I've been. Like, I did it. I mean, I watched it, and I had, like, full body. Even now I have, like, full body chills talking about it. And so I feel like I do. I literally do. I don't. Oh, my God.

[Lauren Brown]

She had texted me, I think, the next day after everything had happened and was like, I'm just watching clips of Alyssa Liu in the airport and, like, crying, and I'm like, yeah, I was doing that last night.

[Gabby Santis]

Yeah. Like, I get to, like. It's like this sort of shared experience, and it, like, deepens my understanding of who Lauren is. Like, people are the same to me as, like, God, because it's, like, this unknown. It's actually fundamentally unknowable thing. But with Lauren, it's like I can get as physically close as humanly possible.

[Lauren Brown]

Yeah. Even if it's not rational, I just feel a little bit more known in that way, I think.

[Lulu Miller]

Maria Paz Gutierrez. Thank you. MPG Special thanks to Rachel Gross, Gregory Rupnick, and to Carmen and Lauren, who set us off on this whole journey. Carmen Maria Machado is currently hard at work on her novel, all about the Holy Shiver. But in the meantime, she's got a new book coming out fall of 2027 and it's called A Brief and Fearful Star. You can also find a link to Bonnie Tsoi's beautiful book on muscle on our website. It is not just about muscle, it's also a message in a bottle to her dad. If you want to see Elisa Leo's gold winning routine or the Thai commercial or performance of Hallelujah we mentioned, there are links on our website. This episode was reported and produced by Maria Paz Gutierrez with help from Sindhu Nyama Sambandam. Next, help from Jeremy Bloom and fact checking by Angeli Mercado.

[Nico Rogenci]

Hi, I'm gabby. I'm from the bay area, california and here are the staff credits. Radiolab is hosted by lulu miller and latif nasser. Soren wheeler is our executive editor. Sarah sandbach is our executive director. Our managing editor is pat walters. Dylan keefe is our director of sound design. Our staff includes jeremy bloom, w. Harry fortuna, david gable, maria paz gutierrez, sindhu nainasambandan, matt kielty, mona maudgaukar, alex neeson, sara khari, natalia ramirez, joanna strogatz, anissa vitze, arian wack, molly webster, and jessica young, with help from gabby santis and maya appleby milamed. Our fact checkers are diane kelly, emily krieger, natalie middleton, angeli mercado, and sophie semay.

[Gabby Santis]

Hi, I'm aubrey calling from salt lake city, utah. Leadership support for radiolab's science programming is

[Lulu Miller]

provided by the simons foundation and the john templeton foundation.

[Gabby Santis]

Foundational support for radiolab was provided by

[Lulu Miller]

the alfred p. Sloan foundation.