The Shoe Thrower

Summary

Radiolab – “The Shoe Thrower”
July 31, 2026 – Hosted by Lulu Miller & Latif Nasser
Reported by Sara Khari

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Episode Overview

In this episode of Radiolab, reporter Sara Khari goes deep into the story of Muntadhar al-Zaidi, the Iraqi journalist who threw his shoes at President George W. Bush during a 2008 Baghdad press conference — an act that instantly went viral and became a symbol of protest across the world. Through interviews with al-Zaidi himself, Iraqi journalist Mais Al Baya, expert Jamila Rakib, and Radiolab’s own team, the episode explores the personal and political background of the infamous moment. The story unfolds through themes of war, journalism, rage, helplessness, and the ambiguous and fascinating territory between violent and nonviolent protest.

Content Note: The episode contains discussions of war, civilian casualties, and torture (00:31).

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Introducing Muntadhar al-Zaidi – Human Behind the Viral Moment

• Sara Khari describes her efforts to connect with al-Zaidi, detailing the challenges and anticipation leading up to their interview. Al-Zaidi himself expresses weariness at being remembered for one “crazy” moment (01:06–02:26).
• He introduces himself candidly:

  "My name is Muntadhar al-Zaidi... And I threw my shoes at George W. Bush." (02:34–02:45)

• The hosts and reporters recall public reactions to the shoe incident, from ridicule and late-night jokes in the West to deep resonance in majority-Muslim communities (04:35–05:44).

2. The Build-Up: Al-Zaidi’s Life and Journalism Under Occupation

• Childhood in Iraq, love of literature:

  "He used to visit any neighbors or any family members who have a library, and he would just read all of the books..." (08:51–09:02)

• Experiences growing up under Saddam, enduring sanctions, and witnessing first-hand the suffering of ordinary Iraqis (09:02–10:23).
• The Iraq War’s brutal realities motivated al-Zaidi to pursue journalism:

  “He started to feel a duty to write about what's happening... journalists write the first draft of history.” (12:00–12:05)

• Al-Zaidi’s emotionally charged reporting, exemplified by the story of Zahra, an 8-year-old girl killed by American soldiers, and the professional and personal risks he took to tell such stories (13:22–15:25).
• Repercussions: abduction (likely by Iraqi government associates), arrest by US forces, intimidation, and the feeling that his work was ignored outside Iraq (17:08–17:38, 21:04).

3. The Breaking Point: Why the Shoe?

• Overwhelmed by reporting atrocities and civilian suffering, al-Zaidi describes a breakdown—feeling powerless to make the world listen (20:07–21:37).
• He explains how, after so much frustration and despair, he conceived the idea of the shoe throw while “in the shower”:

  "I should throw a shoe at George W. Bush. And I kept thinking about it every single day..." (21:55–22:27)

• The symbolism: In Arab culture, shoes are the opposite of roses (a symbol of warmth and honor). Showing the sole of a shoe is a grave insult (23:16–24:03).
• Al-Zaidi frames the act as “intellectual resistance,” drawing a line between violent and nonviolent protest (24:31–24:54).

Notable Quote:

“If I have killed the President of the United States, he will become a hero... I wanted people to once stop and pause and ask, ‘Who is Zahra? What happened to Iraqis?’”
— Muntadhar al-Zaidi (25:19–26:00)

4. Planning & Execution: The Day of the Shoe Throw

• Sought the perfect “dirty, heavy” shoes, symbolically choosing ones of the same number as Bush’s position as 43rd president (38:00–38:44).
• The emotional gravity:

  “It was sunset... I thought to myself, this could be the last sunset I would ever see.” (39:12–39:31)

• The practicalities: picking the third row (not front) to avoid getting shot immediately (41:22–41:35); wearing the shoes like slippers so he could remove them quickly (43:10–43:33).
• The climactic moment:

  “This is my goodbye kiss to you. Your dog.” (45:59–46:09)
  He admits, “I never thought actually of saying that, but I just said it that moment.”

• Original plan was to throw one shoe, but finding himself still alive after the first, he threw the second (47:00–47:23).

Notable Moment:

“[Bush’s] face went completely pale, very pale. And he froze. And then I threw the shoe at him, and he bent forward and the shoe came above him.” (46:30–46:50)

5. The Aftermath: Consequences for al-Zaidi & Cultural Impact

• He was violently beaten by guards, tortured, sentenced to three years in prison (served nine months), and placed in solitary confinement for three months (50:12–51:23).
• While imprisoned, al-Zaidi had a vision of Zahra, the young girl whose death he had reported (51:30–52:40).
• Despite authorities' claims people hated him, mass protests erupted in support—shoe-waving crowds in Iraq, the Middle East, Latin America, Europe, and the U.S. (53:13–54:09).
• Monument built in his honor, offers of medals and citizenship, and the shoes reportedly bid for at $10 million (54:41–54:46).
• The act inspired a wave of “copycat” shoe throws at world leaders—spanning continents and extending the protest’s legacy (55:12–55:34).

6. The Cultural and Symbolic Power of Object-Throwing as Protest

• Expert Jamila Rakib (Albert Einstein Institution) situates the shoe throw in a tradition of quasi-nonviolent protest—throwing objects like eggs, turnips, pies, glitter, milkshakes—meant to puncture the aura of political power (57:04–58:55).
• Such acts create “memorable moments” and playfully, but strikingly, blur lines between citizen and ruler (59:13–59:41).

Notable Quote:

“No matter how powerful you are... you can be anywhere at any time and someone can throw an object at you.”
— Jamila Rakib (58:55–59:01)

7. Fallout & Reflection: Changing the Conversation

• Al-Zaidi was effectively blacklisted and couldn’t work as a journalist afterward, though he insists the reason was government/corporate ties, not doubt on his neutrality (59:50–60:42).
• Many colleagues (like Mais Al Baya) felt the act was “not professional” or even “crazy” until learning the full context of his story (61:20–63:19).
• Their perspectives shifted—Al Baya came to understand the frustration and the statement al-Zaidi was compelled to make (64:00–64:53).

8. Did the Shoe Throw Matter? Debating Impact and Legacy

• Though difficult to measure direct political impact, Rakib argues the act “undermined the narrative that Iraqis were welcoming US Forces as liberators” (66:42–66:53).
• Its lasting viral legacy: referenced in pop culture, social media, and even on Bush’s Wikipedia page (“2008 Baghdad shoe throwing incident” appears prominently) (68:26–69:19).
• Khari sees it as a “Trojan horse”—funny on the surface, but opening up vital space to revisit and discuss the real atrocities of the Iraq war (69:19–70:04).

9. Where Is He Now? Life After the Shoe Throw

• Al-Zaidi tried (unsuccessfully) to run for parliament, now does commentary, plays piano, cooks, and studies interior design at university (70:41–72:19).
• Despite losing his career as a journalist, he insists

  “It’s worth it... The tax he paid was worth it for what he did, even though he lost a lot.” (72:48–73:03)

Notable Quote:

“If you do like me, maybe you will [be] without a job... If you want a career change, you know what to do.”
– Muntadhar al-Zaidi to Sara Khari (73:33–73:41)

• His advice: Everyone has to find their own form of impact; for him, throwing the shoe was what worked—others must discover their own path (74:03–75:00).
• For Zahra’s mother, the act was “revenge for my revenge”—a sense of justice, not just for herself, but for many Iraqis (76:18–76:46).

Closing Quotes

Q: "Did throwing the shoe help with your feelings?"
A: "[Yes,] it was an expression of my feelings." (75:42–75:49)
“I get you. If you do like me, maybe... you will without a job. If you want a career change, you know what to do.” (73:33–73:41)

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Memorable Quotes (with Timestamps & Attribution)

• “My name is Muntadhar al-Zaidi. And I threw my shoes at George W. Bush.”
  — Muntadhar al-Zaidi, 02:34–02:45

• “He had a breakdown. He couldn’t stop crying. He was so broken at that time.”
  — Sara Khari, describing al-Zaidi’s breaking point, 20:45–20:57

• “I should throw a shoe at George W. Bush. And I kept thinking about it every single day…”
  — Muntadhar al-Zaidi, 21:55–22:27

• “The ultimate gift that you can give in the Arab culture is roses… I wanted to do something completely the opposite… what people wear in their feet, which is the shoe.”
  — Muntadhar al-Zaidi, 23:16–23:42

• “If I have killed the President of the United States, he will become a hero… I wanted people to once stop and pause and ask, ‘Who is Zahra? What happened to Iraqis?’”
  — Muntadhar al-Zaidi, 25:19–26:00

• “This is my goodbye kiss to you. Your dog.”
  — Muntadhar al-Zaidi, 45:59–46:09

• “No matter how powerful you are… you can be anywhere at any time and someone can throw an object at you.”
  — Jamila Rakib, 58:55–59:01

• “It changed my mind about him. I respected him more as a person who actually really wanted to make a big statement.”
  — Mais Al Baya, 64:53

• “But it did precisely what it set out to do, which is undermine the narrative that Iraqis were welcoming US Forces as liberators.”
  — Jamila Rakib, 66:42–66:53

• “If you do like me, maybe... you will [be] without a job. If you want a career change, you know what to do.”
  — Muntadhar al-Zaidi, 73:33–73:41

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:06–02:26]: Sara Khari meets Muntadhar al-Zaidi, sets up the interview
• [03:00–04:42]: Recap of the 2008 shoe incident and international reactions
• [08:33–12:28]: Al-Zaidi’s childhood, inspiration for journalism, rise under dictatorship
• [13:19–15:25]: Zahra’s story and reporting under threat
• [17:08–17:38]: Al-Zaidi kidnapped, arrested for his journalism
• [20:07–21:37]: Al-Zaidi’s emotional breaking point
• [21:55–24:03]: Genesis and symbolism of throwing the shoe
• [38:00–39:31]: Planning: picking the shoes, grappling with the risk
• [45:59–47:23]: The act itself—throwing both shoes
• [50:12–54:41]: Torture, prison, and the explosion of global support
• [55:12–55:34]: The global wave of copycat shoe-throwings
• [57:04–59:41]: Historical/cultural analysis of object-throwing as protest
• [61:20–64:53]: Journalist reactions & shifts in perspective
• [66:42–69:19]: Debating the act’s impact and legacy
• [70:41–73:03]: Al-Zaidi’s life post-shoe throw, and why he says “it’s worth it”
• [75:42–76:46]: Zahra’s mother on justice/revenge

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Overall Tone and Takeaways

The episode balances dark humor, empathy, and investigative rigor. Khari explores the nuances behind a moment trivialized in much of the West, reframing it as an act both deeply personal and historically significant. The story articulates journalists’ struggles over neutrality, the psychological toll of war, and how even small, “absurd” acts of protest can ripple through culture and history. The tone alternates: reflective, somber, wry, sometimes ironic, but always driven by curiosity and a sense of moral urgency.

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Summary in a Sentence

Through the lens of one iconic act—throwing a shoe at a President—Radiolab reveals how a journalist’s protest, born from agony and powerlessness, became both a potent symbol of resistance and an opening for long-overdue conversations about war, loss, and what it means to be heard.

Transcript

[Radiolab Sponsor Announcer]

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[Latif Nasser]

Just before we start, this episode discusses war, casualties of war and torture. It may not be suitable for young or sensitive listeners.

[Sara Khari]

Wait, you're listening.

[Mais Al Baya]

Okay.

[George W. Bush]

All right. Okay. All right.

[Latif Nasser]

You're listening to Radiolab Radio Lab from WNY C. Yep. This is Radiolab. I'm Latif Nasser. And today we have a story from our reporter, Sara Khari.

[Sara Khari]

Um, okay, so a couple months ago, I got in the studio to do this interview that I'd been trying to make happen for close to a year. Hello?

[Mais Al Baya]

Hi, Sarah.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

Can you hear me?

[Sara Khari]

Yes, yes. I'd been trying to connect with this Iraqi guy in Baghdad, but hold on, I can't hear. Things were not really going to plan,

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

so we are waiting.

[Sara Khari]

It turns out my interviewee was taking his time, having a little tea after his lunch, and then after about 45 minutes, he shows up.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Yeah, Ahlan.

[Sara Khari]

Ahlan Muntadhar kai Fahla.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Sarah, did you speak Arabic? You don't speak Arabic?

[Sara Khari]

Only a little bit. We fumble through, mostly me doing the fumbling with the help of Iraqi journalist Mais al Baya.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

Tcher Rafna Maisie.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

But then we have one hour, right, Sarah?

[Sara Khari]

So I was hoping to talk to you for longer because I want to get lots of details about your life and tell your story, and I don't want to miss any details. I have a lot.

[Jameela Rakib]

Okay.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

I hope you have another question or new questions. You have new questions?

[Sara Khari]

It was pretty clear that he was sick of talking about the one thing that I really wanted to ask him about. And if you're feeling frustrated, just tell me.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Don't worry, I will tell you which.

[Latif Nasser]

Which is what?

[Sara Khari]

Well, okay, so maybe let's just start with introduce yourself and tell me why you're famous.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Ana Isaidi.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

My name is Muntadar az Zaidi.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Anam rahmat Zawj ahditi Allah. George W. Bush.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

And I threw my shoes at George W. Bush.

[Latif Nasser]

Oh, yeah.

[Sara Khari]

Do you remember him?

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah, I remember that guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sara Khari]

Okay, well, just in case, for anyone who doesn't remember, let me just do a quick refresher.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay?

[Mariam Dwadar]

Yeah.

[Sara Khari]

It's December 14, 2008, more than five years into the war in Iraq, and George W. Bush makes a surprise visit to Baghdad, where he's giving a press conference.

[George W. Bush]

Thank you for your kind invitation.

[Sara Khari]

Next to him is Nouriel al Maliki, the prime Minister of Iraq.

[George W. Bush]

And I'm looking forward to some food.

[Sara Khari]

Now, officially, Bush is there to sign an agreement. Shake some hands.

[George W. Bush]

You're leaving the next president with a stable foundation for the future, as he's

[Sara Khari]

on his way out at the end of his second term. But he's also clearly trying to make this point. War is not over that in his eyes.

[George W. Bush]

But with the conclusion of these agreements, it is decisively on its way to being won.

[Sara Khari]

The war has been a success. At the end, he says thank you in Arabic and then.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Holy.

[Sara Khari]

So you see this guy just sort of pops out of the crowd, out of nowhere and throws a shoe. And George Bush dodges it. And then he throws a second one and Malachi tries to swat that one out of the way. And then it's just chaos. He's tackled to the ground, they're dragging him out. And then the clip ends.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah, it's so quick.

[Sara Khari]

I know. It's so quick. And it blows up. I mean, extraordinary scenes took place. You know, it's basically top of the news across the globe.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

George W. Bushbar

[Sara Khari]

and the clip,

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

it's

[Sara Khari]

all over the Internet. Call it the shoe heard round the world. It's really as viral as something can be in 2008.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah.

[Sara Khari]

But even today, I feel like with most people, if you're like, hey, that shoe thrower guy, they're like, oh, yeah,

[Latif Nasser]

I remember it feeling silly, right?

[Sara Khari]

I mean, and definitely there were some like, how dare he kind of reactions, but generally here in the US it's slightly painful. It was a as much like late night show fodder as it was news.

[Latif Nasser]

Shoo me once, shoes on you.

[Sara Khari]

And for so many people, shoo me twice. Their main reaction was like, pretty quick moving, pretty quick. George W. Bush was weirdly agile there. Like props to him.

[Latif Nasser]

He was quick on his feet. I remember that. And he did a little side to side.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

Looks like we finally found something.

[Latif Nasser]

President Bush is good at dodgeball.

[Sara Khari]

And you know, for me, when this happened, I was 14 years old. I was growing up in a very Muslim immigrant community, going to Islamic school. You know, in this post 911 War on Terror era, very aware of like how so many people had died in Iraq.

[Latif Nasser]

Right.

[Sara Khari]

And like a lot of people, I had a very intuitive understanding of the anger and frustration that this guy was expressing. But at the same time, I'll admit, like, I just sort of thought he was like a random crazy guy, you know, I didn't think there was that much to it.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah, yeah. It feels like a rash move made in anger.

[Sara Khari]

But fast forward to today with everything that is happening in the world right now and things that the US is contributing to in Gaza, in Lebanon and now in Iran, it feels like we're in another never ending, sort of out of control war.

[Latif Nasser]

Very unpopular war.

[Sara Khari]

Very unpopular. Right. I just find myself flashing back to that era and specifically to that guy. And so a while back I just looked him up and first thing I learned was that he was a journalist, like an Iraqi journalist.

[Latif Nasser]

Oh, I didn't know that same.

[Sara Khari]

And suddenly I was like, oh, okay. This act of throwing a shoe, I mean, it's not what anybody is supposed to do, but it's especially not what journalists are supposed to do.

[Latif Nasser]

That's right.

[Sara Khari]

Even for us, we're not supposed to protest or advocate or even express opinions or emotions that could be seen as political.

[Latif Nasser]

It's literally in our job description here.

[Sara Khari]

Yeah, right, exactly.

[Latif Nasser]

And for good reason. The reason is we want people to trust what we say, the coverage we do, that we're not spinning it in one way or another. We don't have our thumb on the scale.

[Sara Khari]

Right. No, totally. So I guess to see him not just like express his opinion, but to actually throw something at the President.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah.

[Sara Khari]

I just kept thinking, like, what exactly got him to that point, you know, what happened there and what does he think of that moment? Now I can.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Smoking some cigars, I think.

[Sara Khari]

So as long as you stay close

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

to the mic without voice. Okay. Don't worry.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

Okay.

[Mais Al Baya]

Okay.

[Sara Khari]

And once we sort of got warmed up, actually this one interview turned into several. Like, we ended up talking for I think something like eight hours.

[Latif Nasser]

Wow.

[Sara Khari]

And there was so much about Munther, what happened that I had, and I think most people have no clue about. And also this act at the center of it, this act of throwing the shoe, the more I learned about it, the more it became really layered and fascinating and weirdly kind of perfect, huh? Okay, just to back up a little here. When did you decide to become a journalist and why did you want to become a journalist?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

He grew up with big imagination.

[Sara Khari]

Mumtadir says that growing up as a kid in Iraq, his mom would read to him every night before bed, which

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

was very inspiring to him.

[Sara Khari]

And he fell in love with stories and books.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

He used to visit any neighbors or any family members who have a library, and he would just read all of the books that he can lay his hand.

[Sara Khari]

And in particular, as he got older and Saddam Hussein was at the height of his dictatorship, he started to read the work of journalists and political poets who wrote about the plight of ordinary people under repression. Then in 1990, Saddam Hussein invades Kuwait

[George W. Bush]

immediately after the Iraqi invasion.

[Sara Khari]

And in reaction, the US and its

[George W. Bush]

allies, together with many other nations high

[Sara Khari]

ordered embargo, place sanctions on Iraq.

[George W. Bush]

The stakes are high. Iraq is already a rich and powerful country.

[Sara Khari]

And of course, the impact of that is mostly felt by the people of Iraq.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

It was like a cancer eating your bones, eating your soul. By some estimates, over half a million children died.

[Sara Khari]

Muntadr was just 14 years old at the time.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

He had three brothers and three sisters and his mother.

[Sara Khari]

So he started lining up at construction sites just looking for any job that he could get.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

He would work from the morning till the evening, and all of the income he would get out of it is literally to buy two bags of bread.

[Sara Khari]

And then, my fellow citizens, 911 happens at this hour.

[George W. Bush]

George W. Bush, American and coalition forces are in the early stages of military

[Sara Khari]

operations claiming that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, which now obviously we know wasn't true, right? Decides to invade Iraq, to disarm Iraq,

[George W. Bush]

to free its people and to defend the world from grave danger.

[Sara Khari]

Mantadr, can you tell me about some of your memories of when the invasion started and how old were you when that happened?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

He was 24 years old. The first memory of the invasion for him, it was when he was in a bus and he saw a convoy of the American soldiers in Humvees. And one of the American soldiers, he got out of his Humvee in the middle of the traffic and he actually tested on a car and his colleagues were laughing.

[Sara Khari]

He told me that in that moment he could feel, As he put it, the disaster that was coming their way,

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

satisfying come to liberate them. They came to piss on people.

[Sara Khari]

And this feeling started to come over him

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

that he has the duty to write about what's happening, like, I want

[Sara Khari]

to become a journalist, because he felt that journalists actually have this very real power. He said this thing to me very along the lines of that saying that journalists write the first draft of history. They are the people that set the record on things.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

And he began writing in Newspapers.

[Sara Khari]

Eventually, he ends up at a TV station called Al Baghdadiya and he starts reporting on all the ways that the invasion Asian is unleashing, as he put it, suffering.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

Agony

[Sara Khari]

on ordinary people. Mantada, can you give me some examples of the kinds of stories that you reported?

[Mais Al Baya]

Yes.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

The story of that little girl, eight years old, girl called Zahra.

[Sara Khari]

One day in 2007 in Baghdad, some American soldiers found an explosive device on their convoy.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

It exploded in front of them and they start to shoot randomly after that.

[Sara Khari]

And because there was a school nearby,

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

the school guard, he came out from the school and he's like, please don't shoot. But they kept shooting.

[Sara Khari]

This little girl, Zahra, was shot and killed.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

At that time, the Americans threatened everybody in the area and said that you must not say she was killed by the Americans.

[Sara Khari]

And so Mantador says a lot of journalists were intimidated by the story and

[Mais Al Baya]

they didn't want to cover it, but

[Sara Khari]

he decided he was going to do it.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

He interviewed the little girls who were with her outside of the school. They were playing with her and they were talking and laughing. And then suddenly that girl, Zahra, just fell on her face. And her friends, they thought that she was joking.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

They nudged her and she didn't say anything.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

And they saw blood streaming out of her body. He was. He was heavily impacted by Zahra's story.

[Sara Khari]

I'm curious, did you just report the facts or did you add, I don't know, some commentary or. Yeah. What was your perspective in that story?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

The way he was writing the story itself, it was very emotional. The final image was like a group photo of Zahra with her friends.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Zahra.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

So he said, this is the picture of Zahra who was killed by the American soldier who actually claims that he was in my country to build democracy. Even when he read the script to his colleagues, everyone was crying.

[Latif Nasser]

Wow.

[Sara Khari]

Now, one note I want to make here is that while I've been able to independently confirm many of the broad strokes of Zaharat's story, I actually haven't been able to track down Muthadr's own report on her. The Baghdadiya archives are really hard to track down all these years later, which means that for a few of the specific details that you just heard, we only have Muntadr's account to go off of. However, from all of my sources familiar with this time period in Iraq, stories like Zahra's were far from the exceptional case. Because what we know today, what is now well documented about the Iraq war, is that the United States military caused widespread harm to civilians, there were rampant abuses of power, like US Forces doing arbitrary raids, stealing, arresting civilians en masse, committing torture and sexual violence, and indiscriminate killing. The estimates of senseless civilian deaths go into the hundreds of thousands. But to this day, we don't actually know the full extent of the civilian loss of life. Yeah, but to go back to month other, what we do know is that a couple of days after the Zahrat story came out, he was in the

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

street and a car stopped by him and said, get in our car or it's going to get nasty.

[Sara Khari]

So he actually got kidnapped.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

They put him in a small room.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

They wanted Muntadar to be quiet and

[Sara Khari]

not speak again, like, no more publishing stories like the one about Zahra.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

He believes it probably was someone from the Iraqi government who was connected at that time with the Americans.

[Sara Khari]

And I should point out that now it's also well documented that the US Forces were, like, actively shutting down news reports and reporters who were trying to get these kinds of stories out into the world. And in fact, a couple of months later, American soldiers actually took him into custody.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

They raided his home, and they detained him.

[Sara Khari]

Why?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

I don't know.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

The shameful part of it was they took him in his pajama.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Pajama. Kanawiyya.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

It was a baby blue pajama as well.

[Sara Khari]

In your mind, was the arrest also connected to your reporting?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

I don't know. I don't know why.

[Sara Khari]

But as this was happening to him, the way he was seeing the Iraq war covered in the news around the world felt so upside down. Like, even before the invasion started.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

George W. Bush, he said,

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

the Iraqis are going to welcome the American soldiers with roses and everybody will be happy.

[Sara Khari]

Full disclosure, I haven't been able to find evidence of this exact moment. It's actually possible that it wasn't Bush, but it was some other administration official. I mean, Dick Cheney said something like, they're gonna welcome us as liberators, you know?

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sara Khari]

So that rhetoric was definitely really prevalent at the time. And weirdly enough, this specific image of Iraqis greeting Americans with flowers or roses is a thing that a lot of people I've talked to actually do remember hearing.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

Yeah, it was heavily marketed by the

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

American media, but also the Western media.

[Sara Khari]

What does that make you feel?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

When Muntabar heard it, he said he really wanted to kind of say, this is not happening. People are not welcoming the American soldiers with roses.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah, I mean, I can imagine how galling that would be. Like, it's your job to Tell the story of your country, of what's actually happening. And not only is no one listening, like insult to injury, the story that is being told is dead wrong.

[Sara Khari]

Exactly. Exactly. And with all of these things piling up, it wasn't long before he hit a breaking point. It happened one day when he was reporting on the bombing of a house.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

An Apache warplane strike the house.

[Sara Khari]

And as he was looking into the rubble, he saw an elderly man

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

wearing the Iraqi dishdasha. The white robe in the middle of the wires and the concrete. All of his intestines were out. He could see hands and arms of children trapped under the collapsed roof.

[Sara Khari]

And after he submitted the footage to the TV station,

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

he had a breakdown. He couldn't stop crying. He was so broken at that time.

[Sara Khari]

The thing that hit him was that despite the fact that he was reporting all of these stories, he could feel

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

that no one was listening. No one cared. Maybe people would read about it within Iraq. Maybe maximum would go in the Arab world, but the outside world, like Europe and America, these stories were not reaching. People's pain is not being heard. I really wanted all of this world to hear and understand the pain that people are going through.

[Sara Khari]

So finally one day.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

I was in the tech shower.

[Sara Khari]

Nice.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

And I talked to myself.

[Sara Khari]

Like, what do I do? I need to do something.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Yes.

[Sara Khari]

And that is when the idea pops into his head. I should throw a shoe at George W. Bush.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Yes. Okay. That's great idea.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

And I kept thinking about it every single day. Every day when I was going to work, I see him on tv. I say, I swear, as soon as I see you, I'm gonna throw my shoe at you.

[Sara Khari]

I don't think. I don't think I fully understand. Like, how did you even get the idea to throw a shoe? Like, I understand you were angry and you were. You know, all this was building up over a long period of time. But where does the idea to throw a shoe come from?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

In my. My evil.

[Sara Khari]

That loosely translates to mischief, by the way. No, but there's so many ways to do Shayatini.

[George W. Bush]

Right.

[Sara Khari]

Like, you could have screamed at him. You could have waved a flag. You could have asked him a really pointed question. You could have demanded that he apologize. But why Shoo.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Exactly. That's a good point. I want to speak in Arabic to explain my idea exactly.

[Sara Khari]

Sure.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

A key reason was the ultimate gift that you can give in the Arab culture is roses. So it's a huge thing. And that is why Muntadar, he said, I wanted to do something completely the opposite of Roses, the complete opposite of that is actually what people wear in their feet, which is the shoe.

[Sara Khari]

And, you know, this is a thing in Muslim cultures, but probably a lot of cultures around the world, you know, shoes are unclean. You don't bring them into the house. Especially in Arab cultures, it's an insult to show someone the bottom of your shoe.

[Latif Nasser]

It's like, here's what I think of you. You're beneath me.

[Sara Khari]

Yeah, exactly.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

You know, for our culture, it's by

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

far the most degrading thing to do to somebody. For example, our mothers, they use slippers on in our culture. And maybe in your culture as well.

[Sara Khari]

Definitely.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

So that is where it came from.

[Sara Khari]

And Muntadar also told me, you know, look, during the occupation,

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

there were two types of resistance in Iraq. One, which was the armed resistance, like

[Sara Khari]

militias that had cropped up fighting the American troops. And then, on the other hand, you

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

had the intellectual resistance. And I felt that I want to be part of the intellectual resistance, and hence why I decided to throw the shoe.

[Sara Khari]

I mean, throwing a shoe is not intellectual resistance. Like, did you realize you were crossing a line beyond just intellectual resistance into something else?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

You cannot put yourself in my shoe. To know what happened in my mind in this moment,

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

I'm actually stunned by your reaction.

[Sara Khari]

Really?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

Because I just told you that half a million children have been killed, many people have suffered for years and years. And you were just listening and you just. Just acted like, it's okay. It's kind of like, no, it's understandable. Let me just translate for you.

[Sara Khari]

Sorry.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

Let me.

[Sara Khari]

Yeah. I just want to say it's not that. It's not that I don't think.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Let me finish.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

I'm not obliged to kind of get a reaction according to your Western standards. And he's not. He's saying. Let me just. Please let me finish. Because it's actually. He said a lot. He said, yes, I am a journalist. I've been documenting a lot, whether it's video, audio, written pieces. No one has listened. No one has done anything. No one was prosecuted. The Americans did not even get my stories. I wanted people to once stop and pause and ask, who is Zahra? What happened to Iraqis? Who are the people who were suffering by this action, which was very intentional action. I made the word ask the question, why this shoe was dethroned. Hence why.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

It's been almost 18 years, and he's

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

still doing all of these interviews to tell the world why he threw a shoe. Is he doing just a question that could embarrass The American President. This is not going to be enough, because that question could be washed away.

[Sara Khari]

No, I totally understand. And Matadr, the reason I'm asking so many questions about this is because this is why I wanted to talk to you. Honestly, like, the reason I thought of you. One night, almost two years ago, I was reading the news about Gaza and I was feeling so angry, and I was, like, in bed, I was trying to go to sleep. Okay. And I was just so, so, so angry. And I, you know, I'm a journalist. I was like. And I don't know if you had this, but here in the US there's a lot of pressure on journalists. Like, oh, stay neutral. Just say the facts. Don't say how you actually feel. Don't say anything political, because then people will think that you're biased. I was feeling like being a journalist was like having handcuffs on. I can't say that this is something horrible that's happening, and I swear to God, I don't know why, but in this moment, I thought of you. I thought of what you did. And that's why I want to understand where that idea came from.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Yes.

[Sara Khari]

There's so many different options you had, and you picked one specific option, right, which is, I'm going to throw a shoe.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

In some moment, I actually thought maybe I should be like an armed resistance. For example, one time I was called by someone who told me that American soldiers raided the house and then they raped his wife and his sisters. So I went there and I talked to the women who were weeping, and they covered their faces because of the shame. The tears were wetting their veil.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

I was very angry.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

And actually, as soon as I walked out from the house, I saw a Humvee. And Americans were standing just outside that Humvee, smoking and laughing and joking.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

That's true story.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

And I thought, honestly, if I could have a weapon, I probably would have killed them.

[Sara Khari]

Why did you decide not to do that?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

Because for me, these crimes that are seen and I've covered, it's not enough to prosecute one soldier or, like, kill one soldier or a couple of them. At the end of the day, those are just people who are following the command. The most important thing is to go to the head of the snake, the person who's giving the orders and who actually allowed and enabled this disaster to happen.

[Sara Khari]

When you were thinking about what to do to George W. Bush, did you think of any other options? Did you think of throwing anything worse than a shoe?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

No, I never thought of throwing anything but a shoe. And I Tell you why? If I have killed the President of the United States, he will become a hero. He will be, he will be celebrated as a victim and as a martyr.

[Sara Khari]

It's so interesting. Cause it's like you had to find the perfect sweet spot between the two options, right? One is the completely nonviolent option which is like keep reporting or something, ask a really tough question or something. And then the other side is like do something that's actually violent. And this is like somewhere in the middle. And I find that very interesting. It's not quite violent, although maybe, I don't know, maybe it's more violent, more on the violent side. But it's like it's somewhere in between the two options.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

There's actually, it's interesting you say about that fine line between violence and non violent. So for example, Bolsoni, the Italian Prime Minister in 2009, someone threw a vase at him.

[Sara Khari]

It was actually a small statue, but anyway. Oh, this is after you. 2009.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

2009, December maybe.

[Sara Khari]

Yeah.

[Mariam Dwadar]

Okay.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

And he ended up bleeding.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Oh, do you see this picture?

[Sara Khari]

I can't see it too clearly. Can you describe it?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Okay, one minute

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

it's of the Italian Prime Minister and his face is full of blood. Despite him being a Kun Prime Minister, people were sympathizing by him because he bled. Even I was sympathizing with the fact that as an old man he was bleeding. To me it's hard to. It's kind of hard to swallow.

[Mais Al Baya]

Huh.

[Sara Khari]

Okay, so tell me Mantadar, what happens next in the story? It sounds like you have this idea in like 2005, I think, which is like three years before you actually do it, right?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Yes.

[Sara Khari]

What happens in the meantime?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

I kept chasing Bush in multiple occasions.

[Sara Khari]

Oh really?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

And I tried to attend his press conferences multiple times and I did not succeed. I even one time I wanted to go to Sharm El Sheikh in order to attend the press conference in Egypt. In Egypt? Yes. And it didn't happen. And so I kept pursuing him and

[Sara Khari]

pursuing George W. Bush. Like how did you do that? How did you figure out where he was going to be and try to track him down?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

You know, I am a journalist,

[Amy Scott]

so

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

every single time I know there's a press conference, I try to follow it. And interesting enough, that incident that when I threw the shoe at him, I didn't even know he was going to be there.

[Sara Khari]

No way.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Yes.

[Sara Khari]

Wait, okay, so that's interesting story. Mansadur told me that In December of 2008, one day he's at work in The Baghdadiya newsroom. It's the end of the day, time for him to get up to go home.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

That's enough.

[Sara Khari]

But

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

by six o', clock, one of

[Sara Khari]

his colleagues turns to him and says,

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

we need someone early, like one correspondent

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

and two cameramen to go to cover a press conference.

[Sara Khari]

Like, can you go cover this?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Because George W. Bush.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

George W. Bush is gonna be there.

[Sara Khari]

What do you think? What's your reaction?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

I'm shocked. I'm freezing.

[Sara Khari]

He asked his colleague to repeat himself, like, are you sure? And then he turns to this other

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

reporter and I said, you need to

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

go with the two cameramen.

[Sara Khari]

Like, you didn't want to go initially.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

No, no, no.

[Latif Nasser]

Really?

[Sara Khari]

Yeah. In fact, Mantadar told me the next thing that he did was

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

he got

[Sara Khari]

in his car and he went home.

[Mais Al Baya]

Huh.

[Sara Khari]

Now, of course, we all know how the day is going to end, but the dramatic story of how it all actually goes down is coming after the break.

[Radiolab Sponsor Announcer]

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[Amy Scott]

I'm Amy Scott, host of How We Survive, a podcast about the messy business of climate solutions. To a lot of people, geoengineering might seem like a dangerous Outlandish way to play God. But some are embracing this sci fi inspired approach as a solution to the climate crisis. Listen to how we survive on your favorite podcast app.

[Latif Nasser]

Hey, I'm Latif, this is Radiolab and we are back with Sara Khari.

[Sara Khari]

Yeah, so when we left off, Muthadhar had just found out that George Bush was going to be at a press conference in Baghdad. And instead of volunteering to go cover it, he hightailed it back home.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

And I run home because I was wearing a brand new shoes that I bought from Beirut, Lebanon.

[Sara Khari]

You didn't want to throw.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

I want to get the dirtiest and the ugliest one. And actually I covered many massacres by the Americans before.

[Latif Nasser]

So he's really thought this through.

[Sara Khari]

Oh, yeah, like every last detail. What did the shoes look like, the ones you picked out?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

It was a very comfortable one and it was quite heavy.

[Sara Khari]

Nice.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

It was kind of like medical shoe,

[Sara Khari]

you know, like an orthopedic type of shoe. Like.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

Yes, I bought it from Egypt.

[Sara Khari]

Okay, what, like color?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Black. Okay, but size? You want to know the size? What size my shoes? Same number of George W. Bush, President, same size.

[Sara Khari]

How did you know that?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

He's 43. President of United States, 43rd.

[Sara Khari]

So your size is 43 and he's the 43rd president? Is that your trend? Me say, okay.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

It was completely a coincident.

[Sara Khari]

Anyway, as he was driving over to the press conference, Mantadar said he just stopped for a second right on the banks of the Tigris River.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

It was sunset. So I stood by the river and I was just staring at the river at the sunset, and I thought to myself, this could be the last sunset I would ever see.

[Sara Khari]

Like, I might. There's going to be Secret Service there. Like, there's a good chance I get shot and don't make it out alive.

[Latif Nasser]

So he's willing to die to do this?

[Sara Khari]

Yeah. Were you thinking through a game plan in your mind?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

It was very simple. I just wanted to throw my shoe at him and that's it.

[Sara Khari]

Can you just walk me through what happened step by step?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Are you curious?

[Sara Khari]

I'm very curious. I think you know the answer to that question. So here goes. He told me he entered this area called the Green Zone.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

That was an area where most of the Saddam Hussein palaces were.

[Sara Khari]

It's where the Americans were based. Pretty locked down.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

When I passed all of the checkpoints, I saw my colleagues there from the Baghdadi ETV station and they were kind

[Sara Khari]

of like, oh, okay, you came after all.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

And he said, no, no, no, I'm coming here as a citizen. I'm just coming here to watch.

[Sara Khari]

And he handed them his press credentials, his id and when he entered the

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

press conference, conference room in the building of Prime Minister Castle, somehow

[Sara Khari]

he was the first person in there.

[Mariam Dwadar]

There.

[Sara Khari]

He looked around,

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

the hole was, was quite massive. I saw all of the Iraqi and American flags, podium.

[Sara Khari]

I saw the red carpet in the rows of chairs. He was trying to figure out where to sit.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

In the beginning he went and sat on the first row. But then he thought if I gonna throw my shoe at him, then I actually, I better be a little bit behind. Why?

[Sara Khari]

Because that was too close.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

Because if I was on the front row and I throw the shoe, then I will be shot dead straight away. But if I am on the third row, they will think before shooting at me.

[Sara Khari]

As people were filing in, I could

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

feel my heart was popping out of my chest.

[Sara Khari]

He could feel his body catching up to the reality of what he was about to do. Excitement, fear, what is it?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Both.

[Sara Khari]

And then right before they all took their seats, some guards came in and

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

they were giving us all of these orders and it was quite degrading. They say, you know what, you're going to have to even be so.

[Sara Khari]

And when he went up to get

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

searched, there were two bodyguards.

[Sara Khari]

There was this one guard who was

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

wearing a pilot suit.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

Huh. And the pilot one, he was extremely rude.

[Sara Khari]

After he was done searching somebody,

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

he will literally smack them on their bottoms, slap us and say, off you go, go.

[Sara Khari]

Wow. And Muthadir at this point was so amped up, you know, that if he got this guy, he just didn't even know how he was going to react. Thankfully ended up getting searched by the other guy. And when he's getting searched, I ended

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

up taking off my shoes and when

[Sara Khari]

he put them back on.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

So wait a minute.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

I wore them like slippers because I wanted to be able to take them off easily. I was laughing inside because I thought like, if only he knew that this is my actual weapon.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

Yeah.

[Sara Khari]

Wow. Okay. Finally, when Muntadhar sat back down, it was time.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

George W. Bush.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

George W. Bush walked in.

[George W. Bush]

Thank you for your a kind invitation.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

George W. Bush has started saying, I am quite hungry. He was just thinking that the only thing that the President is gonna taste is his truth.

[Sara Khari]

When George Bush is giving the speech, are you listening to what he's saying?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

No, no, I don't know what he's saying. Sad. I'm in another world.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

I was reciting Quran. I was trying to do the whole ceremonies as if, like, I am leaving this world.

[Sara Khari]

Oh, wow. He told me it felt like.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

Like a very nasty flu.

[Sara Khari]

And in this feverish haze, he heard the.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

This voice inside.

[Sara Khari]

And this voice in his head was saying, like, look at your life. You're chief correspondent. You have your own program. People love you. You have a house, you have a car. Your future is wide open.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

Do you really have to do this?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Okay.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

And I almost backed off, and I thought, what am I doing?

[Sara Khari]

But suddenly, war is not over. It was like he woke up.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

And then I was talking to myself

[Sara Khari]

and saying, if I back off now,

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

I would call myself a coward every

[Sara Khari]

day for the rest of my life.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

If I lose my self respect, I don't care if. If the rest of the.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

The world would respect me.

[Sara Khari]

And so when George W. Bush neared the end of his speech,

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

clearly George W. Bush was practicing a lot to say thank you in Arabic.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

When he finished his word, in an

[Sara Khari]

effort to be at least somewhat honorable and not take him by surprise, he

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

shouted,

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

This is my goodbye kiss to you.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

Your dog. I never thought actually of saying that, but I. I just said it that moment.

[Sara Khari]

Oh, you didn't plan to say that?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

No, no, no, no.

[Sara Khari]

Abadan, how bad of an insult is it to call someone a dog? Is it a very bad insult?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Yes. Yes, it's very bad.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

And George Bush, when he saw I lifted my eyes,

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

I could see his

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

face went completely pale, very pale. And he froze. And then I threw the shoe at him, and he bent forward and the shoe came above him.

[Sara Khari]

And then, of course,

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

he was taking the other shoe. Yeah.

[Sara Khari]

Was that always the plan, to throw both shoes?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

My original plan was just one shoe because I thought that as soon as I'm gonna stand up and throw one shoe, I'm gonna be shot dead. But then, okay, when I threw the first one and there was nothing, I thought, okay, it's time for me to actually do the second side. So I threw the second one.

[Sara Khari]

Were you surprised at how quickly he dodged the shoes?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

I was mainly focusing on my own actions. And I kept releasing all of the anger from all of the stories I've covered for all of the anger that I was building up inside me for years and years, swearing at him and his father. And I kept saying, this is all of the Iraqis they've killed, they're raped, they affected. So I managed to actually release all of that in one time. The one who stopped me was an Iraqi journalist. He tried to strangle my hand, you know, hold my hand. But then after that, they all gathered

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

on top of me.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

Then I was taken by the security of the Iraqi Prime Minister.

[Latif Nasser]

We'll be back with the rest of the story after this quick break.

[Radiolab Sponsor Announcer]

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[Amy Scott]

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[Sara Khari]

All right, so we ended with you getting tackled to the ground. For most people, obviously, this is the end of the story. But for Mantadr, it was not.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

The bodyguards gathered on me. They were beating me really, really bad.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

They broke my teeth, they punched me in the eye,

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

and then they were shouting, oh, he's a terrorist. He's a terrorist.

[Sara Khari]

An Iraqi court sentenced him to three years in prison.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

They stripped me completely and just kept

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

me with my underwears.

[Sara Khari]

He claims he was tortured pretty horrifically. Doused with cold water, shocked with electricity, beaten with iron bars.

[Latif Nasser]

Jesus.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

Maliki's staff kept telling me that people are resentful about what I did and that people hated me.

[Sara Khari]

And then they.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

They took me in solitude confinement and they locked me there for three months.

[Sara Khari]

Three months. Oh my goodness.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

Every single day was way longer than any days that ever I spent in my entire life.

[Sara Khari]

On one of these days, Mantadar was sitting in his cell.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

I just looked at my cell's door,

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

which had two holes only, so there was barely any light coming from it. Then suddenly I just saw Zahra. Zahra, Off white, wearing an off white dress. She came and she sat on the bed. I knew it was Zahra because. Because her mother gave me some of her pictures when I was reporting on the story. And she just looked at me and then she disappeared. I was just surprised. He knows that. This might sound like. Like he was crazy, but this is actually what happened.

[Latif Nasser]

Wow.

[Sara Khari]

He told me the next thing he remembered was two officers entering his cell

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

Two high ranking officers from Maliki's office and they were asking me why I threw the shoe at George W. Bush. And I just said it's because they killed Zahra.

[Sara Khari]

Madadur says that some of the guards that are sympathetic to him

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

began to lead me some information about what was

[Sara Khari]

going on while he was in prison. Because outside, the shoe throw struck a nerve. In the days after his arrest, people in multiple cities in Iraq poured out into the streets. In the news footage, you can see seas of people waving shoes in the air. And not just in Iraq or in the Middle east, but in Latin America,

[Latif Nasser]

Europe,

[Sara Khari]

in the United States. I was just watching this really striking footage of these American activists throwing shoes at an effigy of Bush in front of the White House. Take this one on behalf of all

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

the American people who are disgusted with

[Radiolab Sponsor Announcer]

what you've been doing here.

[Sara Khari]

But back to Mandadar. After nine months in prison and he ended up getting released. And by this point, like a monument had been put up in his honor. One country had offered him a medal and another country had offered him a citizenship. I'm pretty sure several people have also offered their daughter's hand in marriage to him.

[Latif Nasser]

No way.

[Sara Khari]

Yeah. Someone in Saudi Arabia reportedly bid $10 million for the shoes.

[Latif Nasser]

Oh, my God.

[Sara Khari]

Although those allegedly we were destroyed.

[Latif Nasser]

Wow.

[Sara Khari]

And Mandadar's impact on the culture didn't even end there because jumping ahead a bit, Premier Wednesday started in the few years following Mantada, there's many people used the shoes. A speech on economics interrupted with the new fashionable protest, the throwing of a shoe. There's a rash of copycat shoe throwings at world leaders.

[Latif Nasser]

Really?

[Sara Khari]

Yeah.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

The latest target of a shoe thrower

[Sara Khari]

is Iran's credit President Mahmoud Ahmadineja.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

You have yet again, this one directed at Prime Minister.

[Sara Khari]

The Prime Minister of India, John Howard, Prime Minister of Australia, Hillary Clinton was one I didn't even know about.

[Amy Scott]

What was that?

[Mariam Dwadar]

A bat?

[Sara Khari]

That's somebody throwing something at me. And like, truly, I'm not even joking. This is scratching the surface. There's a great Wikipedia entry of all the different shoe throwings. And I actually didn't realize that there was this much of a response to the shoe at the time until I started reporting on this, which did make me wonder, like, before Mantadar, there was so much protest against the Iraq war already. Like, what was it about this act that made it take on a life of its own? And you know, there are the obvious reasons, like the high profileness of it, the fact that it was like Directly at George W. Bush. The symbolism of the shoe that we talked about earlier, the fact that there were so many cameras in the room. And this era where things kind of newly could go viral, even just the timing of it all, like coming at this moment in the war where people were sick of what was going on. So it does seem like this perfect storm of things. But I do still find myself thinking back to the conversation that Muthadar and I had earlier about that Goldilocks space between violence and nonviolence. It's really something I don't think I ever thought about or even had the words for before I talked to him. Yeah, I'm just curious how you would describe that or what kind of name you would give that.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

Yeah.

[Sara Khari]

So I went looking for somebody who could help me think through it. Like, what's the label we put on the shoebox? I actually don't even know how to articulate.

[Jameela Rakib]

Well, quasi nonviolent methods that include the use of very low levels of. I'm not really sure what the term would be fair. But I think there is that niche space.

[Sara Khari]

So this is Jameela Rakib.

[Jameela Rakib]

I am the executive director of the Albert Einstein Institution, which is an organization that. That studies and promotes the use of nonviolent action in conflict.

[Sara Khari]

And she says that niche space actually does have a rich history.

[Jameela Rakib]

There's this long history of people throwing objects at political leaders, at invaders, at occupiers.

[Sara Khari]

There's things like throwing eggs, tomatoes, probably tomatoes.

[Jameela Rakib]

Potatoes.

[Sara Khari]

Potatoes somehow feels more violent than eggs and tomatoes.

[Jameela Rakib]

You know what? That's a tricky one, I think. Turns out there's historical precedents for turnips. It goes back to ancient Rome.

[Sara Khari]

No way.

[Jameela Rakib]

Where people disagreed with the policies of a particular governor and actually threw turnips at him. That sounds painful.

[Sara Khari]

Yeah. Heavy root vegetables. Yeah, that sounds more painful, for sure.

[Jameela Rakib]

Yes, exactly.

[Sara Khari]

And lots of modern day examples come to mind too. Heard about, like pie throwing.

[Jameela Rakib]

Glitter.

[Sara Khari]

Glitter. Oh, glitter.

[Jameela Rakib]

I mean, it's really hard to get off your skin.

[Latif Nasser]

Didn't someone throw a milkshake at someone at some point?

[Jameela Rakib]

Yes. Nigel Farage.

[George W. Bush]

Right.

[Jameela Rakib]

The far right leader in the uk. Actually, important to note here also is the case of someone throwing the sandwich.

[Latif Nasser]

Oh, I feel like I heard of that one. That was in D.C. is that right?

[Sara Khari]

Yes, at Border Patrol.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay, okay.

[Mais Al Baya]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sara Khari]

Part of the power of all of these, Jameela says, is it's a very memorable moment, the sheer spectacle of it.

[Jameela Rakib]

But also it shows that you can be anywhere at any time and someone can throw a Object at you no

[Sara Khari]

matter how powerful you are.

[Jameela Rakib]

Yeah.

[Sara Khari]

Cause like one thing I think about with the shoe throw is how it ever so briefly flattens the hierarchy between Mantothor and George W. Bush.

[Latif Nasser]

You know, like, it's like, it's just they're no longer a citizen and a president or whatever. It's like, it's just like a dude throwing a shoe and dude dodging a shoe.

[Sara Khari]

Right, exactly. It's just like all the roles fall away, which when you consider that one of them has the might of the world's most powerful military behind them and, and the other is a disenfranchised journalist in a war torn country. It's kind of an extraordinary thing that they could even find themselves on the same plane.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah.

[Sara Khari]

Although I will say it didn't come without a cost because when Mathadr tried to get back to his life as

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

a journalist, I cannot find any devastation to work with them.

[Sara Khari]

He couldn't find anyone to hire him.

[Jonquil (Radiolab Staff Announcer)]

Him.

[Latif Nasser]

Why not?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Because there are more, more TV station in Middle east, friends with American and friends with the Iraqi government.

[Sara Khari]

He claimed that in order to avoid upsetting either the Iraqi government or the American government, all of these Iraqi channels basically blacklisted him. Which you know, is a claim that's very hard to prove. But from multiple journalists that I've talked to who knew the media landscape around this time, it's definitely plausible. But do you think part of it is that they stopped taking you seriously as a journalist? That they didn't trust you to, I don't know, be neutral and not be an activist?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

No, no, not. That's reason. Not that reason. That's not reason.

[Sara Khari]

I mean it was clear that many journalists were genuinely upset by what he did.

[George W. Bush]

Okay, everybody calm down please.

[Sara Khari]

First of all, even if you just go back to the first moments after the shoe throw, the other journalists in the room that day, specifically some of the Iraqi journalists were immediately apologizing directly to Bush.

[George W. Bush]

Journalists here were very apologetic. They were, you know, they were said this doesn't represent the Iraqi people. But that's, that's what happens in Free Suspect where people try to draw attention to themselves.

[Mais Al Baya]

When I saw it, I felt embarrassed that a journalist would have done something like that.

[Sara Khari]

So this is Mais Albaya. You've heard her already translating my conversations with Muthadr. She is an Iraqi British journalist.

[Mais Al Baya]

Because Mace just wasn't professional. I mean, I don't think two journalists can disagree about that.

[Sara Khari]

I actually called her up after we were done with all of our interviews with Muthadr I think it was just hitting me that you have been through a lot of the same stuff as Muntadhar.

[Mais Al Baya]

Yeah.

[Sara Khari]

Like him, she was on the ground.

[Mais Al Baya]

I've been where Mumtadr was. I've been in the Green Zone reporting

[Sara Khari]

on the invasion as it was happening

[Mais Al Baya]

for multiple international news outlets.

[Sara Khari]

And even though she wasn't one of the Iraqi journalists in the room that day, she told me that when she

[Mais Al Baya]

saw it, I was shocked about it. No one sane could have done that, I guess. Yeah.

[Sara Khari]

Tell me a little bit more about when I reached out to you and, oh, I want to interview this guy. I don't know, 18 years later. What did you think? What was your reaction to that?

[Mais Al Baya]

I was surprised because

[Sara Khari]

out of all

[Mais Al Baya]

of the stories on Iraq, he would not come to my mind.

[Sara Khari]

You're like, there's so much more to say. What? Why him?

[Mais Al Baya]

I was genuinely surprised by your quest. But. But going through the interview, I got why you were interested in him. And you know what? It actually put him in a different light.

[Sara Khari]

How so? How did it put him in a different light for you?

[Mais Al Baya]

Because I always thought that it was just someone who was absolutely crazy and that it was spontaneous that this happened. But when I heard the story and heard about the thought process behind took me back in time. I had a big Flashback back in 2008.

[Sara Khari]

Mace had been reporting on the Iraq war for five years.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

Like, in a quiet day, it would

[Mais Al Baya]

be probably 50 people killed.

[Latif Nasser]

Wow.

[Sara Khari]

And she was reporting those numbers day in and day out. But she says she started to notice that as the years wore on, it

[Mais Al Baya]

became less and less. Less sexy. Because obviously, you know, other things happen in the world. Fair enough. And then instead of taking a headline, it became the second big story, the third big story, and then suddenly became page three.

[Sara Khari]

So she said in some sense she understood how Mantadar felt because even though people were seeing her reports, they just didn't have the same power anymore.

[Mais Al Baya]

People got used to. And I understand it. I work in the news business. I understand how people are wired. It's like, okay, we know about this. What's the difference between what happened last month and what's happening today? Nothing. People move on. It's a number, it's a statistics, it's a figure. But to me, they are not numbers. They are people. I probably even know their names or people I might be related one way or another to. So when I had the interview with you and him, I got his frustration. I got when he's like, no one cares. Really, no one cares. And he just wanted to grab attention. It changed my mind about him. I respected him more as a person who actually really wanted to make a big statement.

[Latif Nasser]

Do you have a sense that, like, I mean, obviously he was expressing a lot of his personal anger and frustration. It seems very clear that he inspired other protests. But did him throwing the shoe have a real measurable impact, like in Iraq on the war or whatever?

[Sara Khari]

Yeah.

[Jameela Rakib]

So, yeah. I mean, just deeply obsessed with the effectiveness question.

[Sara Khari]

When I called Jameela Raqib, I actually asked her that also, and it was interesting to watch her brain work through it.

[Jameela Rakib]

I think that it's more interesting how it fit into the larger puzzle of what's happening in the rest of soc.

[Sara Khari]

She said, what you need to do is look at the shoe throw in the context of the larger struggle, in

[Jameela Rakib]

this case the anti occupation struggle, and

[Sara Khari]

ask, how did this act affect not just George Bush and my daughter, but how did this act affect all the characters involved in this struggle?

[Jonquil (Radiolab Staff Announcer)]

Yes.

[Sara Khari]

So, like, for example, the military, did

[Jameela Rakib]

it make it more difficult for them to carry out their policies, their military operations? Did it persuade them in any way?

[Mariam Dwadar]

Yeah.

[Sara Khari]

Or say, like, the people of Iraq,

[Jameela Rakib]

what impact did it have on ordinary Iraq? Did it empower them?

[Sara Khari]

For Iraqi journalists, did it make it

[Jameela Rakib]

harder for journalists to do their job in the future?

[Sara Khari]

Or even for people outside of Iraq,

[Jameela Rakib]

did it bring more people to the cause? So I'm curious. These. I mean, I don't know the answer

[Sara Khari]

to any of this, and honestly, I don't know either. I mean, in some cases, it felt hard to know definitively how a certain group was affected. And. And on balance, I just came out of the conversation feeling like. It's just hard to imagine how, you know, this one moment changed all that much.

[Jameela Rakib]

But it did precisely what it set out to do, which is undermine the narrative that Iraqis were welcoming US Forces as liberators.

[Sara Khari]

Jameelah reminded me that, you know, ending the occupation was never the goal of the shoe throw. It was always the about getting people to pay attention. And in that sense, it's hard to deny the legacy of this thing.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

You know, I have more than 100k followers in Twitter. There's many people from America. Okay, yeah. Yesterday, from America, he said, mutazar, we need you. America needs you. We will have and pile of shoes at your disposal. Please come throw our government in your shoes. Every time the American people said, please come to throw Biden, Please come to throw Trump.

[Sara Khari]

No, I know. And I feel like I see this on the Internet.

[Latif Nasser]

Remember that, dude that threw his shoes at George W. Bush.

[Sara Khari]

Like, every couple of days, someone thinks of you.

[Latif Nasser]

I'm a big fan of so many comedians, but the funniest thing that's ever happened on television in my life was

[Sara Khari]

that someone thinks of you. Someone reenacts the chew throw on social media.

[Latif Nasser]

Oh, that's funny.

[Sara Khari]

Someone just sent me a picture of someone on Instagram that made a ring. Etched into the ring is like a panorama of Bluer throwing the shoes.

[Latif Nasser]

Whoa. Wow.

[Sara Khari]

People are still thinking about and referencing this moment.

[Latif Nasser]

Is it on George W. Bush's Wikipedia page?

[Sara Khari]

Oh, good question.

[Latif Nasser]

I wonder if that is enough of

[Sara Khari]

a. I mean, I will say, like, it is one of the things that George W. Bush still gets asked about. Mr. President, before Donald Trump, there weren't

[Latif Nasser]

a lot of funny clips.

[Sara Khari]

Like, I just found a clip of George W. Bush going on Jimmy Kimmel just a few years ago. And the first thing that Jimmy Kimmel asks him about.

[Jonquil (Radiolab Staff Announcer)]

No.

[Sara Khari]

Is this clip. Yeah, you were very.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

You have very good reflexes.

[Sara Khari]

My guess is that Laura had done that before.

[Latif Nasser]

Oh, it is on George W. Bush's Wikipedia page.

[Sara Khari]

Is it?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Oh, my God.

[Radiolab Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

Here's what it says.

[Sara Khari]

Is it a section?

[Latif Nasser]

It's not a subheading. It's like a sub subheading. Okay, yeah, but it's like a little. It's like a little section.

[Sara Khari]

Oh, my God.

[Latif Nasser]

It says 2008 Baghdad shoe throwing incident. The word shoe comes up 14 times on this page. It's in multiple places on the Wikipedia page.

[Sara Khari]

So, like, you know, one could argue it has become a small part of the legacy of George W. Bush. And even beyond that, honestly, I mean, the most powerful thing to me about the shoe throw is that it's this funny looking Trojan horse where initially you're like, oh, ha ha, that was crazy. Boom. Next thing you know, we're talking about messed up stuff that happened in Iraq. You know, like, to me, that's what journalism is supposed to do. It's supposed to create an opening to talk about these things in a world where I don't think most of us, Americans, at least, are eager to revisit all of the dark stuff that our country did during that time.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

I'm sorry, Sarah, but I think I'm gonna have to go by now.

[Sara Khari]

You have to go.

[Mais Al Baya]

Okay.

[Sara Khari]

Back in the interview with Mantadar, by this time, we were in our third sitting. Mace had to go, maryam, are you okay taking over?

[Mariam Dwadar]

I mean, we can try. You want to give it a try and we'll see how.

[Sara Khari]

Yeah, yeah, that'd be great. And my producer in Baghdad, Maryam Duidar, took over for translation.

[Mariam Dwadar]

You might have to like share earbuds

[Sara Khari]

now, Maryam, it so happens, in addition to helping me report parts of this story, is a documentary filmmaker who is making a film about Muntadhar.

[Mariam Dwadar]

I think at one point he said to me, it's a shame I wasn't like a caterpillar. Like a caterpillar with 40 pairs of shoes.

[Sara Khari]

I would have just kept throwing them like one after the other. And when she first met him back in 2018, he'd gone from trying to find a job as a journalist to trying to run for parliament in Iraq. Can you tell me about him running for office?

[Mariam Dwadar]

Yeah. So there was a day when I was in Iraq and I went to a market and I was just pulling people off the street and I just said like, hey, did you know that Muntada Rezaidi is running for parliament? What do you think about that? I remember there was one woman that was like, it's like a rough translation of a phrase, but she's like, oh, I would carry him and his shoes on my head. Which is like an honor. She said, if I have a son, I'm going to name him Muntadr.

[Sara Khari]

So Muntadr's reputation did get him a lot of attention in the election.

[Mariam Dwadar]

But I think the shoe throw only

[Sara Khari]

took him so far because come election

[Mariam Dwadar]

day he did get some votes, but not enough to win the seat.

[Sara Khari]

On some level it does feel like for a lot of the world the image of him did just get paused on him throwing the chute. How about now? What are you doing these days? What's happening in your day to day life?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

I'm just write something in social media about the corruptions and follow the news for the dumb Trump and what, what happened in our love.

[Mariam Dwadar]

He does a lot of political commentating, cooking at home, playing the piano, which he does a lot, lighting candles. His favorite scents are gardenia and vanilla.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

And I'm study now.

[Sara Khari]

Oh.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Today I have a new specialized interior design.

[Sara Khari]

Interior design in university. Oh, wow.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Yes.

[Sara Khari]

What made you want to do that?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

I have more skills.

[Sara Khari]

It seems like he's also left the door open to maybe running for office again.

[Mariam Dwadar]

But yeah, I would say like the shoe throw was, it didn't improve his life in the way I think a lot of people expected.

[Sara Khari]

No. The thing I want to know is like do you miss being a journalist?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Journalist, yes, but worth. But worth.

[Sara Khari]

What did you say? I don't understand.

[Mariam Dwadar]

He's trying to Say it's worth it.

[Sara Khari]

It's worth it.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Yes.

[Sara Khari]

Why worth. Why was it worth it?

[Mariam Dwadar]

The tax he paid was worth it for what he did, even though he lost a lot, for example, like working in the field of media, which he loves, even up until this day.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Yeah.

[Sara Khari]

This makes me think about. So as I was telling you yesterday, the reason I wanted to talk to you is because I've been having all of this anger and frustration about things that are happening in the world that I feel like I can't change, and I don't know what to do with it, you know?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Yes. I get you.

[Sara Khari]

You get me?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

I get you. If you do like me, maybe

[Jonquil (Radiolab Staff Announcer)]

you

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

will without a job.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (English speaker)]

Yeah. If you want a career change, you know what to do.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

I get you.

[Sara Khari]

I don't know if I'm being honest with myself. I do wonder sometimes if I should continue being a journalist or maybe I should leave journalism and go do something else, like be an activist or work in politics or, you know, something different.

[Mariam Dwadar]

No, don't leave journalism. I don't want you to leave your work, but your work should be for a cause, and you can help to support in one way or another.

[Sara Khari]

Mantadar told me he still thinks that journalists do actually have real power to cause change, especially in today's world and especially in the U.S. u.S.

[Mariam Dwadar]

He's talking about you in the third person in this. He said, yes, because she has more freedom of speech, more freedom of movement, more freedom of influence. And there is a difference because you're in the heart of decision making in America.

[Sara Khari]

The thing he said to me was like, look, within the constraints of my life, I was trying to figure out what worked for me. Me, how I could make a difference.

[Mariam Dwadar]

And eventually, I did think of something.

[Sara Khari]

Essentially, he was like, you're in very different circumstances. Everybody's case is different. Find something that works for you the way that throwing a shoe worked for me. But I guess the thing I was wondering as much as anything else, was when he found that thing.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Thing.

[Sara Khari]

And did it. Did it work for him? Like, did it actually help him as a person? You know, when we were talking before, you were telling me about the anger and the frustration that was building up inside of you. Right, like that you had about Zahra or, you know, seeing that bombing. I guess I just want to know, did throwing the shoe help with any of those feelings?

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Feelings,

[Mariam Dwadar]

yes, of course. It was an expression of my feelings.

[Sara Khari]

He told me. He does still, of course, carry around a lot of those memories from the war.

[Mariam Dwadar]

When I think of Zahra I feel grief. I was thinking the other day when I was talking to you, if she was all, she could be a student today or married or something.

[Sara Khari]

But at the same time he told me this other story too.

[Mariam Dwadar]

When I saw Zahra's mom at the

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi]

house,

[Mariam Dwadar]

She told me that when I threw the shoe, she felt like I got. The literal translation would be like I can got my daughter's rights, but I think it's like. I guess it would be the equivalent of like revenge.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Revenge for my revenge.

[Mariam Dwadar]

It's something along the lines of justice. Revenge.

[Muntadhar al-Zaidi (Arabic speaker)]

Yes. Revenge for revenge. Yes.

[Sara Khari]

Okay. I think that's all the questions that I have for you, Mantad.

[George W. Bush]

Are you sure?

[Sara Khari]

Yeah, I think so. So. So you just say your name and however you want to describe yourself.

[Latif Nasser]

This episode was reported by Sara Khari with help from Mariam Dwadar, translation by Mais Al Baya and Mariam Dwadar. It was produced by Sara Kari, sound design contributed by by Sara Khari with mixing from Jeremy Bloom and fact checking by Emily Krieger and Hiba El Orbani.

[Sara Khari]

If you want to know more about Mehdem's work and believe me when I say her documentary about Mantadar is going to be amazing, keep an eye out for it or Mace's incredible journalism about Iraq. I will link to both of those and their social media in the episode description.

[Latif Nasser]

Special thanks also to Asmat King Khan and Mustafa Saleem. If you like this episode and want to hear more deep dives into the Bush era war on terror, check out our episode 60 words or our series the Other Latif. To find Those, search for 60 words. Radiolab or the Other Latif Radiolab on your favorite streaming platform. Okay, and just before we go, if you liked what you heard, you want more, you want in on that sweet, sweet Radiolab bonus content, you are in luck. We have a newsletter, usually comes out on Saturdays. There's all kinds of things in that newsletter. Recommendations from the staff, just random things we like that don't fit in a podcast format. Like one thing we love that we put in there was a rejection let's letter we received from Werner Herzog that was especially florid and hilarious stuff we have coming up. Like the live show that Correspondent Dr. Veer Mitra and executive editor Thorin Wheeler just did together. Yeah, it's just fun stuff. [e-mail] Newsletter.

[Jonquil (Radiolab Staff Announcer)]

Hi, I'm jonquil and I'm from brooklyn and here are the staff credits. Radiolab is hosted by lulu miller and latif massa. Soren wheeler is our executive editor. Sarah sandbach is our executive director. Our managing editor is pat walters. Dylan keefe is our director of sound design. Our staff includes jeremy bloom, w. Harry fortuner, david king, gable, maria paz gutierrez, sindhu nyan sambandan, matt kielty, mona matgowka, annie mcewan, alex neeson, sara kari, natalia ramirez, joanna strogatz, anisa vitsa, ariane wack, molly webster, and jessica young, with help from gabby santos and maya appleby malamed. Our fact checkers are nora belglidia, hilary elkins, rachel gross, diane kelly, emily krieger, natalie middleton, and sophie samay.

[Mariam Dwadar]

Leadership support for Radiolab science programming is provided by the Simmons foundation and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.