The Voice in Your Head - A Tribute to Joe Frank

Summary

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Radiolab: "The Voice in Your Head – A Tribute to Joe Frank"

Date: January 23, 2018
Hosts: Jad Abumrad
Guests: Brooke Gladstone (On the Media), Ira Glass (This American Life)
Theme: Honoring radio legend and experimental storyteller Joe Frank, exploring his influence on modern audio, especially on Radiolab and This American Life, and celebrating his uniquely surreal and uncompromising approach to radio.

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Episode Overview

This Radiolab episode is a heartfelt tribute to Joe Frank, a pioneering figure in unconventional radio storytelling who had just passed away. Jad Abumrad guides listeners through clips of Frank’s work and in-depth conversations about Frank’s immense yet under-acknowledged impact on a generation of audio creators. Discussion spans from personal anecdotes and professional debts owed to Frank, to the qualities that made him at once inimitable and inspiring.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Was Joe Frank? (01:34–02:29)

• Jad introduces Joe Frank as a "great in our business," describing him as one of the originals and someone whose storytelling “nobody” could match.
• Abumrad notes that despite Joe Frank's profound influence on audio storytelling, he's little known outside radio enthusiast circles.

2. Joe Frank’s Signature Style—Dark, Surreal, Intimate (02:46–04:12)

• Brooke Gladstone plays a classic Joe Frank clip showcasing his blend of dark humor, discomfort, and poetic everyday observation.
• Frank’s Hug Monologue:

  "When you hug people goodbye… Usually the one who disengages first is the one who cares less. ...I now hug people very briefly ...sometimes, if I detect any resistance, I'll push the person away. ...It was a matter of self-preservation."
  (03:01–03:52, Joe Frank)

• Jad’s Reaction:

  “That is classic Joe Frank. ...beautifully realized, very vivid, kind of funny, but kind of also troubling.” (03:52–04:12)

3. Early Radiolab and Frank’s Influence (04:12–06:14)

• Jad recalls Radiolab's beginning days (2002), when he tried to find his voice, often mimicking Ira Glass until exposed to Joe Frank’s distinctive style.
• Jad:

  "After me, Joe Frank would come on ...I’d just be sitting there listening to him ...amazed ...There’s a surreality and a disorienting-ness ...that I just really fascinated by. ...I want to do that." (05:21–06:14)

4. Classic Frank: The Chicken Suit and Brutal Honesty (06:23–07:33)

• Another signature Frank narrative:
  • Surreal, mundane, then bizarrely vulnerable (e.g., a chicken costume, awkward bar conversation, explicit body function, and an existential graffiti message).
• Jad:

  "Oh my God. Oh, that's good. That's really good. Wow." (07:33)

• Brooke:

  "There's nothing wrong with playing that clip ...He's not using any bad words." (07:41–07:47)

5. The Voice Inside Your Head (08:03–08:22)

• Jad:

  "Joe Frank always had the quality of, like, he's coming from inside your head out and then back in again..."

  • Described as the ultimate goal for audio: intimacy and uncanny relatability.

6. Joe Frank’s Obscurity and Legendary Status (08:37–09:31)

• Jad discusses Frank’s cult status among audio storytellers, despite general obscurity:

  "Amongst us, our little sort of posse of radio people, he’s a legend, but nobody on the outside ever knew him." (08:57–09:31)

7. Surreal Dream Worlds (09:40–11:18)

• Joe Frank Dream Sequence: A story where reality slips (elevators moving horizontally, people in green gauze, phone booth odyssey).
• Example of Frank’s dreamlike narrative logic and emotional punch.

8. Joe Frank Remembered – Ira Glass Conversation (15:41–29:54)

• Ira Glass (This American Life) recounts being both Frank’s production assistant in his first NPR job and a lifelong fan/student.
• The Elevator Story:
  • Ira describes Frank’s story about a fleeting, imagined romance with a woman in an elevator, praising its realism and emotional effect:

    "I just remember feeling like... I've never heard this before. ...to feel totally caught up in a story and you don't exactly know why." (17:45–19:08)

• Memorable Frank quote (The Elevator):

  "You go through your life looking and looking... in an elevator… This happens to me with a different woman about once each day." (20:35–21:17)

• On Frank’s Endings:

  "In the end, it like, doesn't resolve at all. You're just left with like 12 different feelings..." (22:50–22:56)

• On Borrowing from Frank:
  • Ira describes how Frank's use of music and atmosphere influenced This American Life, and the awkwardness when Frank accused him of “stealing” music cues:

    "The way he used music is so built into me... when Pat Metheny comes out with a new record, I hear the same track you do and hear the same possibility in it..." (24:34–25:22)

• On Storytelling Techniques:
  • Both Ira and Jad marvel at Frank’s ability to play with narrative structure, like purposeful digressions (the “tea moment” in "The 80 Yard Run"):

    "I’ve spent 30 years trying to figure out how to steal that." (27:29–27:42, Ira Glass)

9. Why Joe Frank Remains Inimitable (28:41–29:54)

• Ira Glass:

  "It's completely impossible to imitate... There's nobody doing anything as daring and competent at the same time. ...he still has outpaced every single one of them from the grave." (28:41–29:54)

• On Legacy:
  • Ira on whether it matters that Frank’s work isn’t widely heard:

    "I feel like, fuck the people of the future... These are radio shows, you know what I mean? They're meant to be enjoyed right now..." (28:55–29:31)

    • Ironic, anarchic, and affectionate tone fitting the subject of their tribute.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jad Abumrad on Frank’s style:

  "They're like demented Talk of the Towns... little fragments of dark experience, which are beautifully realized, very vivid, kind of funny, but kind of also troubling.” (03:52–04:12)

• Jad, on discovering Frank:

  "I was still trying to figure out, like, okay, so who am I? What do I want my stuff to see sound like? ...And after me, Joe Frank would come on... and I would just be sitting there listening to him and just like, amazed..." (04:33–06:14)

• Joe Frank’s elevator monologue:

  "You go through your life looking and looking. Sometimes you see her... in an elevator. ...This happens to me with a different woman about once each day." (20:35–21:17)

• Ira Glass on being inspired:

  "Hearing him made me want to make stories. And then I spent over a decade trying to figure out how to do it with facts and with reporting. The thing that started me with that ambition was him." (23:26–23:41)

• Ira Glass on Joe's artistic prowess:

  "It's so singular, you can't really imitate it very well." (28:41)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [01:34] – Jad introduces the episode and its purpose
• [02:46] – First Joe Frank story clip: hugs and emotional disconnection
• [03:52] – Jad’s reaction to Frank’s writing style
• [06:23] – The chicken suit and bathroom monologue (signature Frank blend of absurd, real, and existential)
• [09:40] – Dream sequence clip displaying Frank’s surreal narrative
• [15:41] – Jad transitions to Ira Glass interview, beginning of their conversation
• [19:12] – Ira narrates the impact of the “elevator” story
• [21:26] – Ira on Joe Frank’s ability to express unfulfilled longing
• [22:50] – On Frank’s refusal to give neat narrative resolutions
• [24:34] – Frank’s influence on audio production and music choice
• [27:29] – “Tea moment”: Frank’s command of narrative pacing
• [28:41] – Why Frank is still unmatched; on the singularity of his work

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Conclusion

Radiolab’s tribute paints Joe Frank as an unclassifiable master whose radio stories blurred dream and memory, discomfort and humor, reality and artifice. Through conversations with Brooke Gladstone and Ira Glass, listeners are led through personal and professional debts owed to Frank. Both hosts recall not just stylistic but existential lessons borrowed from him—that boldness, darkness, and unresolved stories have a home on the radio.

The episode ends on a note of wry affection, with the hope that new listeners will follow the breadcrumbs to Joe Frank’s considerable archive, and a resigned admiration that, even in an audio renaissance, no one has successfully imitated the original "voice in your head."

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Resource:

• Joe Frank’s archive: joefrank.com
• Full Brooke Gladstone interview: onthemedia.org

Transcript

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[Jad Abumrad]

Wait, you're listening. Okay.

[Joe Frank (voice clips)]

All right.

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[Jad Abumrad]

All right.

[Joe Frank (voice clips)]

You're listening to Radiolab from wnyc.

[Jad Abumrad]

This is Radiolab. I'm Jad Abumrad. A couple days ago, Joe Frank passed away. One of the greats in our business. Huge inspiration for me, but a guy whose work you may not know. He was one of the originals. Nobody told stories like Joe Frank. Nobody told stories like Joe Frank. No one. He is still. Anyhow, you know what I'm gonna do? I want to take this podcast to play for you a little bit of his work because it's so good. It's so good. And also play for you a few conversations I've had recently about Joe Frank and the impact of that work. Starting with a conversation I had with Brooke Gladstone from On the Media. She recently interviewed me about the impact that Joe had on Radiolab, which is significant. So let's start there. This is an excerpt of a conversation that I had with Brooke Gladstone that they used for on the Media. And I believe it starts with a clip.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Let me play a clip or maybe a couple of them and get your reaction.

[Joe Frank (voice clips)]

When you hug people goodbye after a social event, perhaps a dinner party or a gallery opening, there is always that moment when they squeeze you more forcefully than before. A polite way of letting you know they are about to withdraw. Usually the one who disengages first is the one who cares less. When this used to happen to me, I felt rejected and humiliated. I come home with a lonely, sick feeling. And that's why, in order to assume the power position and gain the psychological advantage, I now hug people very briefly, perhaps one or two seconds before freeing myself. Sometimes if I detect any resistance, I'll push the person away. In one instance, I caused a woman to fall backwards over a chair, injuring her bag, which led to her hospitalization. But I had no choice. It was a matter of self preservation.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, man, that is classic Joe Frank. It's really good writing. You know, he writes these like scenarios. They're like demented talk of the towns in a way. Like, they're just these little fragments of dark experience which are beautifully realized, very vivid, kind of funny, but kind of also troubling.

[Interviewer/Producer]

How do you think he influenced you? Cause you were always a great producer, always technically adept. You had tons of musical composition training. You understood the rhythmic possibilities of radio. What did he do that you don't think you could have done without him?

[Jad Abumrad]

A lot of different things. This was way at the beginning for me when Radiolab was just a three hour thing on the AM station.

[Interviewer/Producer]

We're going back how far?

[Jad Abumrad]

We're going back to the stone age. So January, February 2002, somewhere around there, really at the beginning. And everybody here who knows the beginning of Radiolab knows that I didn't deserve that show. It was just too soon and I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't have a style. I had the like, unfortunate thing that we all had back in 2002, is that I just wanted to be Ira Glass. Everybody wanted to be Ira Glass, right? And I was still trying to figure out, like, okay, so who am I? What do I want my stuff to see sound like? And so I would, every Sunday night I'd have to put up three hours. And it was an anthology show at that point. And it was literally, take the best documentaries from the BBC, the CBC in Canada, the ABC in Australia, Radio Netherlands, all the stuff, and package them into three continuous hours. And I would sort of narrate in and out of different segments. And so from 8 to 11, I'd be playing my show. And I was bored opping at the time when, which means I wasn't just making the thing, but I had to sit at the board, hit play on the cd. And then between hour one and hour two and hour two and hour three, I would have to say the weather, right? So I was doing the whole thing. And after me, Joe Frank would come on, and he was part of my shift. And every time I'd just be like, what the f is this stuff? I would just be sitting there listening to him and just, like, amazed and, like, mentally taking notes, being like, oh, this guy has a feel and a. There's a surreality and a disorienting ness to his stuff that I just really fascinated by. And I was like, oh, I want to. I want to do that.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Can we play that one that we said that we can't play?

[Joe Frank (voice clips)]

There was a time when I danced on a street corner dressed as a chicken. My job was to draw attention to a furniture store down the block. One evening, when my shift was over, still wearing my chicken outfit, I walked into a bar across the street. I ordered a Bombay martini, straight up, olives on the side. A prostitute sat down next to me. She was young, willowy, had a faraway look in her eyes. Her name was Meredith. We talked about our careers, the importance of networking, setting goals, focus. Then I excused myself, walked into the men's room, entered a stall, and sat down on the toilet and had a bowel movement that broke in two. And half of it was still hanging out of me. So I had to wipe myself 50 times, repeatedly checking to see if there was more left on the toilet paper. And written on the wall were the words, know that someone is suffering anonymously and unknown, and that by the time you read this, I'll be dead.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, my God. Oh, that's good. That's really good. Wow.

[Interviewer/Producer]

There's nothing wrong with playing that clip. Actually. He's not using any bad words.

[Jad Abumrad]

It's true. I mean, there's no FCC violations there.

[Interviewer/Producer]

And it's simply gross. And yet you tell me that there is this person on the planet to whom that hasn't happened.

[Jad Abumrad]

Joe Frank always had the quality of, like, he's coming from inside your head out and then back in again. He has that kind of quality where it sounds like he's somehow like the voice in your head, but broadcast back into your head. There's something about that quality, which that's what I want from the radio. It's what I want from podcasts. I want someone to be speaking from inside me in a way.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Have you ever talked about Joe Frank to.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, yeah. I give this talk 30, 40 times a year where I have, like, an extended Joe Frank excerpt. I Have an image of Joe Frank that I show. Yeah, I talk about Joe Frank all the time.

[Interviewer/Producer]

The vast majority of our listeners of the people listening to this, I'm going to have to assume they never heard of Joe Frank. And he was always available on podcast, but he was like this mystery to people who weren't willing to sort of follow the breadcrumbs to him.

[Jad Abumrad]

You know, I'll tell you, I mean, when I give this talk that I. That I often give, and I go through the series of people who've influenced me, I'll always ask, any Joe Frank fans in the house? These will be, like, audiences about 2,000, 2,500 people. And like, one time someone clapped one time, I remember, like, there was a clap in the far right. And I was like, oh, my God, a Joe Frank fan. It always broke my heart a little bit because no one ever knew his stuff. Like, amongst us, our little sort of posse of radio people, he's a legend, but nobody on the outside ever knew him.

[Interviewer/Producer]

You know, this is going to be their chance.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Joe Frank (voice clips)]

Last night I dreamt I was lost on an elevator. All the floors were the same. Then I realized the elevator was moving horizontally. So I tried another elevator, the express, but it just got me more lost, faster. People kept getting on and getting off. They were all wearing green gauze over their heads and were smoking ice cream cones. I said, please let me off of 39th Street. And the conductor said, this is 35th Street. You'll have to walk three blocks and take the escalator. But when I got to the escalator, it was just a phone booth. So I made a call. I called my father. I said, hello, I'm lost on 39th street looking for an escalator, and I can't find it anywhere. And he said, I'll be right there. And there he was. And the phone booth started moving forward very slowly with my father and I in it. And I didn't know where it was going or why. And he said, don't be afraid. This phone booth will take us home. And I said, but we have no home. And he said, we live on the eighth floor, apartment Y. And I said, why? And he said, yes.

[Jad Abumrad]

That was a condensed version of a conversation I had with Brooke Gladstone for on the Media. You can find the full [e-mail] we'll return with one more Joe Frank recollection in just a moment.

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[Ira Glass]

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[Jad Abumrad]

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[Jad Abumrad]

I'm Jad Abumra. This is Radiolab. We're paying tribute to Joe Frank in this podcast. Joe unfortunately lost a battle with colon cancer just a few days ago. After my conversation with Brooke Gladstone from On the Media, I ended up having later that same day another conversation about Joe Frank, this time with Ira Glass from this American Life. Hello. Hey, how's it going, man?

[Ira Glass]

Hey. It's going okay. It's going okay. I could do a better line reading.

[Jad Abumrad]

There were two entirely different okays just then.

[Ira Glass]

For the purposes of this conversation, I'm doing just fine.

[Jad Abumrad]

All right.

[Ira Glass]

Hey, did you know Joe Frank?

[Jad Abumrad]

No. I had one interaction with Joe Frank, which was. It was almost perfectly Joe Frank in that I met him once at Third coast and I asked him something and he looked at me for a long time and then just walked away without speaking. That was my one Joe Frank interaction.

[Ira Glass]

So do you remember what you asked him?

[Jad Abumrad]

I think I might have said something utterly like, not my place, because I had just started the show and I was like, hey, if you have any work that you want to like, you know, get on the show, let me know. And he just looked at me like, you have the gall? And just walked away. And so that was it.

[Ira Glass]

Yeah. Yeah, sure do.

[Jad Abumrad]

So what do you remember about him? I'm curious, like, what you saw because you worked with him, right?

[Ira Glass]

Yeah, Basically, When I was 20, I had my first paid job at NPR and I was the production assistant to this guy whose job it was to invent new ways to do radio for npr. And he had a regular show and he would do different things in different weeks. And he brought Joe Frank down from New York and that was the thing we were doing for a while. And I was Joe's production assistant as my very first paid job at npr. And I had never heard him on the radio. I mean, he wasn't like, you know, on national radio. So I have like a few very specific memories, for sure.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Ira Glass]

And the best way I can explain it is like I've had the experience a number of times over the years where people try to tell me like, oh, the first time I heard your show was this. And generally the thing they're trying to say to me is like, I didn't know that the radio could do that. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't realize that, like, oh, radio could like tell a story like that and it would feel like this. And I myself had that exact experience. And the person who I had it with was Joe Frank. And I remember there was a day early on and I was standing in the old control room at NPR's original studios, like the original two studios they had, there was Studio 1 and Studio 2 on the first floor of 2020 M Street. And we were in Studio 2 and I was standing by the reel to reel tape machine, you know, the bank of them. And I remember Joe was telling one of his stories and I remember feeling like, oh, I've never heard this before. I just remember feeling like this thing and just sort of like to feel totally caught up in a story and you don't exactly know why you're so caught up with it and you don't know where it's going and you just want to stay with it. And the sound of his voice, he's such like an incredible radio performer, like, much better than you or me, you.

[Lowe's Announcer]

Know what I mean?

[Jad Abumrad]

Do you remember what the story was that you were listening to?

[Ira Glass]

I don't remember which specific story it was. I do remember I have gone back because there was one story in particular called the elevator that in fact I've gone and dug up that. I remember at the time I thought like, this is it. This sums up the whole thing. And literally what it is, I'm riding.

[Joe Frank (voice clips)]

Up the elevator of my building is.

[Ira Glass]

He gets on an elevator.

[Joe Frank (voice clips)]

I'm standing there sharing the small space with a terrific looking girl.

[Ira Glass]

He totally gets a crush on this woman.

[Joe Frank (voice clips)]

But I feel shy, uncomfortable. I scratch my head, I sigh, I gaze up at the numbers of the floors lighting up one after another.

[Ira Glass]

And he starts to imagine their life together and everything that they will be.

[Joe Frank (voice clips)]

She seems like the kind of person.

[Ira Glass]

I'd really like and he cannot bring himself to.

[Joe Frank (voice clips)]

We stand there silently, not looking at.

[Ira Glass]

Each other, say a word to her. And so he pulls out something from his pocket.

[Joe Frank (voice clips)]

I reach into my pocket and draw out a scrap of paper, which I unfold. It turns out to be a cash register tape from the A and P. But I scrutinize it as if it's very important before putting it back in my pocket.

[Ira Glass]

That's a detail of the story I remember seeming so real. It has a very magnetic forward motion and it's like four or five minutes long. And the entire thing happens in the elevator. He literally is just describing the floors going up and all the feelings he has.

[Joe Frank (voice clips)]

You go through your life looking and looking. Sometimes you see her, the woman you might have loved, the who might have loved you, at a bus stop, in a museum, across a smoky room, at a party, in the lobby of a.

[Lowe's Announcer]

Theater, online, at the supermarket.

[Joe Frank (voice clips)]

In an elevator. When she leaves in a panic, you want to run after her, calling out, stop, stop.

[Lowe's Announcer]

It's me, the person you were meant for.

[Joe Frank (voice clips)]

Don't you recognize me? Don't I look familiar? I may seem like a stranger, but I'm the person you've been waiting for, the one in your dreams. But you just stand there and watch her leave. This happens to me with a different woman about once each day.

[Ira Glass]

And I remember when I was 20, hearing that and being like, this is it. This, this guy is doing a thing like, I want to know. I want to know how you do this.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yes, for me the equivalent thing was. Have you heard his Rent a Family trilogy?

[Molly Webster]

No.

[Jad Abumrad]

God be hard pressed to summarize the story, but it's essentially this whole world in which families can be rented for occasions. Well, I saw this ad and it.

[Joe Frank (voice clips)]

Said Rent a Family. We have certain things, package programs where an individual can experience over the course.

[Ira Glass]

Of a 12 month period, a pretty considerable range of families.

[Jad Abumrad]

Hi. Hi, Krista, it's your father from the agency. Come here. And it's all like in this very documentary format. And it's done really well. So you actually sometimes like aren't totally sure that what you're hearing is a drama. It's sound super real.

[Ira Glass]

We cannot deny that the society seems to be speeding up before our very eyes.

[Joe Frank (voice clips)]

The whole idea of renting things has.

[Jad Abumrad]

To do with people's desire to not.

[Joe Frank (voice clips)]

Have a permanent commitment to them.

[Ira Glass]

I think it's important to recognize the depth of Loneliness that must be addressed here.

[Jad Abumrad]

And in the end, it like, doesn't resolve at all. You'll just left with like 12 different feelings that you don't even know what to do with.

[Ira Glass]

I mean, I think in a way, like, that's what he represents. You're, like, thrown in the middle of the action and it's gritty and you don't understand. It's kind of dark. And it's not all gonna get resolved. All the answers aren't gonna be given to you and you're gonna have, like, weird feelings you don't know what to do with. And often it's gonna overreach and it's not even gonna work. But it was still kind of cool, you know, like, all of that is completely. It's completely 70s film turned into radio.

[Jad Abumrad]

So what is it that you think you took with you from Joe Frank and put into this American life?

[Ira Glass]

I mean, there are a couple of things. Honestly. The first thing is just he gave me the most important thing, which was desire to do it. Do you know what I mean? Like, hearing him made me want to make stories. And then I spent over a decade trying to figure out how to do it with facts and with reporting. The thing that started me with that ambition was him. So that's one thing. A second thing is just the way he would use music and the way that the music would pull the story forward and create a mood, but also kind of like push you into the dream of it. The notion that you'd use music as a kind of cinematic scoring, which is not the way, you know, music would be used in old time radio dramas, and certainly not the way music was being used on anything on npr. And the way he used music is so built into me that a couple of years after this American Life was on the air, Joe was already living out in California, had been for years, and still doing his show. And like, mutual friends let me know, like, Joe is so angry with you. And I was like, why is Joe so angry with me? You know what I mean? Cause he was my. Why is he so angry? And then it turned out that Joe thought that I was listening to his show and stealing the music.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, yeah.

[Ira Glass]

And I got in touch with him and he's just like, it's so petty. He said, this is so petty. You could be choosing any music and you're listening to my show. He's like, it takes me so long to find decent music. And I edited so carefully. You know, it's such a part of the identity of the show. And that you would just listen to my show and rip me off. Like, do a little work, brother. And I was like, joe, it's so much worse than that. Like, the fact is, like, I haven't heard your show in years. I haven't heard it. I'm so sorry. And what happened is I just learned how to use music from you. And so when Pat Matheny comes out with a new record, I hear the same track you do and hear the same possibility in it. And I just do the same thing because, like, it's so built into who I am. So, in a way, like, I am totally stealing from. But I swear I didn't know it.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, no. Did you ever. Did you ever, like, land that in a good place with him?

[Ira Glass]

He was fine at the end of it. I think it was just something about the. It was just. It seems so, like, it seems so small to him. You know what I mean? Like, what? You listen to my show and you're stealing my music? Like, what's the matter with you? You know what I mean? It just seemed cheap. Yeah. So there's that. And what else carries forward from him? I mean, it's. Honestly, there's a thing or two that he does that I have never figured out how to imitate that. In the back of my mind, I still feel like I'm gonna steal that. And one of them is this thing that came up last week. I was talking to Parker, one of the younger producers here, and she was talking about a thing she wanted to do and kind of a moment that she really loves. And she used to be a film professor and is like a super cinematic thing she was shooting for. I was like, you know what? You should really listen to this guy, Jeff Frank. And she never. And I downloaded. Last week, I bought and downloaded the 80 yard run, which. Have you heard that one?

[Jad Abumrad]

No, that one I haven't heard.

[Ira Glass]

Oh, my God. It's a super early one. In fact, I think it's just an air check of one of his WBAI broadcasts before he was national. I think it's an actual live radio show done late at night, and it's just him in a microphone with music, and he's telling the story of what he keeps referring to.

[Joe Frank (voice clips)]

As I like to call it, my infamous 80 yard run is a rather twisted, convoluted tale.

[Ira Glass]

Now, before I get to the full story of my adr, Rod, I hope.

[Joe Frank (voice clips)]

That you will bear with me.

[Ira Glass]

There's a few things you need to know first. And the first thing you need to know is about this fight between Luis.

[Joe Frank (voice clips)]

Rodriguez and Reuben Hurricane Carter.

[Ira Glass]

You know, there's a lot of that. And then he tells you, like, a series of professional fights that happened over the years and tells them so.

[Joe Frank (voice clips)]

Well, he absorbed an awesome, terrible beating standing propped up unconscious.

[Ira Glass]

And then there comes a point where he's like, you're like six or eight minutes into the thing. And he says, but before I can tell you that part of the story, you need this next thing. And I will tell you that after.

[Joe Frank (voice clips)]

A brief interlude during which I will drink some tea.

[Jad Abumrad]

What do you like?

[Ira Glass]

The music comes up, and then he just leaves. And I was like, oh, my God. And, like, I've spent 30 years trying to figure out how to steal that.

[Jad Abumrad]

You want to have a tea moment?

[Ira Glass]

I don't even know how to do it. I honestly, I. Honestly, I don't know, man. I mean, like, I'm gonna figure it out, but first I'm gonna go make myself some tea.

[Jad Abumrad]

That's Ira Glass from this American Life. Thanks to him. Thanks also to Brooke Gladstone from On the Media, and to Sara Khari and Kelly prime of the More Perfect crew who produced this tribute. Also, a very special thanks to Michael Story. If you want to hear excerpts of Joe Frank's work, which I would highly Recommend, go to joefrank.com his entire archive is there. We'll also link you to it from Radiolab.org one of the things that you will hear, I think, if you listen and Ira and I talked about this, is that even though he's a guy who has inspired so many of us to get into the business of telling stories, nobody sounds like him still, because.

[Ira Glass]

It'S completely impossible to imitate, you know, the hundreds of thousands of podcasts that are happening now. There's nobody doing anything as daring and competent at the same time. Yeah, like, literally, like, it's so singular, you can't really imitate it very well. And I'm personally not one who believes it matters if your work lives on past you, you know what I mean? I feel like, fuck the people of the future, you know what I mean? These are radio shows, you know what I mean? They're meant to be enjoyed right now. And then if no one ever listens to them again after we're gone, well, fuck them anyway. Walking around and being alive while we're dead. First of all, fuck all those people being alive and having sandwiches and meeting for lunch while we're dead and not existing. Like, I hate them already. They can fuck themselves. But it seems sad that other people won't know this weird thing that I know is so special, you know, like, he's so outpacing everybody. Even now. Even now there's like this army of people making podcasts and trying to invent something that's like nobody else is doing. He still has outpaced every single one of them from the grave.

[Jad Abumrad]

That's a perfect place to end.

[Ira Glass]

Okay, bye. Bye.

[Jad Abumrad]

This is Sunny from South Africa. Radiolab was created by Jad Abumrad and is produced by Soren Wheeler. Dylan Keith is our director of sound design. Maria Matisarpadilla is our manager, managing director. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Becca Bressler, Rachel Cusick, David Gebbel, Beth Hefty, Tracy Hunt, Matt Kielty, Robert Krulwich, Emmy McEwen, Blizard Nassar, Melissa Ojon Rule, Arianne Wack, Pat Walters, and Molly Williams Webster, with help from Amanda Aaron Chick she Ma Oli E, Naya Hughes, J. Carlo Eagerfoot, Holy Ann, Phoebe Wang. Our fact checker is Michelle Harris.