Transcript

Jad Abumrad (0:01)

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Dr. Oren Davinsky (0:08)

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Jad Abumrad (0:10)

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Adrienne Noe (0:47)

All right.

Jad Abumrad (0:48)

Okay. All right. You're listening to Radiolab Radio Lab from WNY.

Adrienne Noe (0:59)

And npr.

Robert Krulwich (1:01)

Hey.

Adrienne Noe (1:02)

Hi.

Robert Krulwich (1:02)

How are you?

Adrienne Noe (1:03)

I'm fine. How are you?

Robert Krulwich (1:05)

Robert, Nice to speak to you after all these years.

Adrienne Noe (1:08)

Yes, it's been quite a few years.

Robert Krulwich (1:10)

I should let you know that Jad Albumnot has just wandered in.

Jad Abumrad (1:13)

Hello.

Adrienne Noe (1:14)

Hi.

Robert Krulwich (1:14)

And Jad, this is Adrienne Noe, last.

Adrienne Noe (1:16)

Name is N O E, and I'm director of the National Museum of Health and Medicine.

Robert Krulwich (1:21)

So you know why we're calling you, right?

Adrienne Noe (1:23)

Yes.

Summary

Radiolab: "UPDATE: Famous Tumors"

Date: October 22, 2013
Hosts: Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich
Special Guests: Rebecca Skloot, David Quammen, Mark Salzman, Dr. Oren Davinsky, Adrienne Noe

Overview

This episode of Radiolab dives deep into the strange, astonishing, and sometimes unsettling stories of famous tumors. It features three main segments:

The story of President Ulysses S. Grant’s preserved throat tumor
The saga of devil facial tumor disease in Tasmanian devils and contagious cancers in animals
The remarkable legacy of Henrietta Lacks and her immortal HeLa cells—with an important update on her family’s recent involvement in genomic research ethics.

Through these stories, Radiolab explores the biology of cancer, ethical quandaries about ownership of human tissue, and the profound way tumors can affect individual lives and broader society.

Segment 1: Grant’s Tumor (00:47–04:41)

Key Discussion Points:

Introduction to Adrienne Noe, director of the National Museum of Health and Medicine, where Grant’s actual tumor is kept.
Robert and Jad visit the museum and get a look at the historic specimen.
The irony of President Grant—a lifelong, heavy cigar smoker—dying from throat cancer.

Notable Quotes:

[01:57] Adrienne Noe: “Well, you may know who's buried in Grant's tomb, but I know what's buried in Grant's tumor.”
[03:32] Adrienne Noe: “February of 1885, tissue was removed, examined, and his physicians concluded that he had a squamous cell carcinoma. And ultimately he was treated for pain and died in July of 1885, that same year.”

Memorable Moment:

Grant’s tumor is kept in a box that looks just like a cigar box—the source of his cancer.
[03:09] Robert Krulwich: “Oh, wow. It was resting in a box that looked, it happens, exactly like a cigar box.”

Segment 2: Tumors That Leap—Devil Facial Tumor Disease (04:46–21:02)

Key Discussion Points:

Science writer David Quammen tells the story of visiting Tasmania, following the journey of wildlife photographer Christo Bars, who first noticed unusual, lethal facial tumors in Tasmanian devils.
Experts try to determine the cause: environmental toxins, viruses, or something stranger.
Dr. Anne-Marie Pearse discovers that the tumors are genetically identical in different devils.
Explanation from cancer biologist Carlo Maley: Cancer as an evolving ecosystem, not merely a single rogue cell gone awry.
Tumors in Tasmanian devils are actually contagious cancer: they are physically passed from animal to animal via bites, with the devils’ low genetic diversity allowing the foreign tumor to evade immune detection.
Discussion expands to other contagious animal tumors: canine transmissible venereal tumor (CTVT) in dogs, possibly 2,000–5,000 years old—the oldest continuous animal cell line known.

Notable Quotes:

[12:08] David Quammen: “They were all the same tumor.”
[12:22] David Quammen: “This epidemic of cancer in Tasmanian devils was a crazy, impossible tumor that was jumping. It was leaping from one devil to another.”
[17:16] David Quammen: “Tasmanian devils, God bless them, bite one another in the face a lot. ... They’re fighting and biting and swallowing and crunching.”

Memorable Moments:

[19:01] Carlo Maley: “Evolution is all about dumb luck. ... That, he says, is what makes evolution happen.”
[19:45] Robert Krulwich: “How long has that [canine tumor] been going on?”
David Quammen: “Somewhere between 2,200 and 5,000 years.”
Jad Abumrad: “Whoa. Over two millennia.”
[20:25] David Quammen: "This tumor is essentially an animal, a parasite ... one individual parasite that may never die."

Segment 3: When Tumors Create—Phenomena, Pleasure, and Spirituality (22:27–33:09)

Key Discussion Points:

Introduction to rare cases where tumors cause beneficial or profound experiences, especially in the brain.
Discussion of the movie "Phenomenon" (1996), where a brain tumor makes a man a genius.
Dr. Oren Davinsky relates real neurological cases, such as a man whose brain tumor caused sexual pleasure from looking at safety pins—lost after surgical removal of the tumor.
Mark Salzman’s novel “Lying Awake,” in which a nun’s temporal lobe tumor produces mystical experiences of God, raising questions about the nature of religious or transcendent experiences.
Dr. Davinsky weighs medical and ethical considerations if a person's sense of self or spiritual experience comes from a brain abnormality.

Notable Quotes:

[24:01] Dr. Oren Davinsky: “A gentleman was described who ... would look at safety pins and have an orgasm. ... The more shiny and the more numerous the safety pin, the stronger the sexual experience.”
[27:04] Mark Salzman (reading): “She looked down to the floor ... the silence in the room came alive like the words left out of a poem. ... God is here, she answered. You were here all along.”
[30:55] Dr. Oren Davinsky: “Could it truly be that this is God’s avenue to speak to us? ... It may be that ... some states of neurologic dysfunction allow you to harmonize, or tune in, or receive those messages, so to speak.”
[32:33] Robert Krulwich quoting Dostoevsky: “For several moments, I would experience such joy as would be inconceivable in ordinary life... for a few seconds of such bliss, I would give ten or more years of my life, even my whole life, perhaps.”

Segment 4: The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks and the Legacy of HeLa Cells (35:10–58:56)

Key Discussion Points:

Rebecca Skloot introduces the story of Henrietta Lacks—a Black woman whose cervical cancer tumor led to the first immortal line of human cells, now known as HeLa.
Dr. Howard Jones recalls the unusual appearance and texture of Henrietta’s tumor.
Lab assistant Mary Kubicek describes the unending, explosive growth of these cells—a singular scientific breakthrough.
HeLa cells fuel numerous advances: polio vaccine development, research into viruses, chemotherapy, even space biology.
Familial and ethical fallout: HeLa cells were mass-distributed and commercialized without the family’s knowledge or Henrietta’s consent.
Emotional interviews with Henrietta’s daughter, Deborah, who struggled with the knowledge that her mother’s cells—genetically her mother—were everywhere, enduring experiments and even space flights.
The “identity crisis” and trauma for the family due to misinformation and lack of communication from the scientific community.

Notable Quotes:

[37:03] Dr. Howard Jones: “When you touched it, you might think it was red jello.”
[39:52] Rebecca Skloot: “They grew a lot. ... They doubled in size every 24 hours.”
[47:10] Rebecca Skloot: “HeLa cells can ... float on dust particles. ... They take over.”
[50:41] Rebecca Skloot: “At one point, 25 years after their mother died, someone called and said, hey, part of her is still alive, and we’ve grown enough of her so that it could wrap around the earth several times.”
[58:56] Rebecca Skloot, recounting Deborah with her mother’s cells: “She just raised them up to her lips and she said, you’re famous, but nobody knows it.”

Memorable Moments:

The revelation that Deborah was terrified of running into "clones" of her mother’s cells—confusing biological immortality with literal resurrection.
A healing encounter between Deborah and her cousin, Gary, with a powerful prayer when Deborah was overwhelmed.
Deborah’s first meeting with HeLa cells in a lab: gazing at their glowing, swirling presence on a screen.
The news that Deborah died of a heart attack only a week before Rebecca’s studio visit—which added emotional weight to the episode’s conclusion.

Segment 5: The Update—HeLa Genome, Ethics, and Family Involvement (59:04–66:47)

Key Discussion Points:

Since the release of Rebecca Skloot’s book, Henrietta’s story has exploded in public consciousness: scholarships, monuments, and a high school named for her.
In March 2013, a German group published the complete genome of HeLa cells online, without consulting the Lacks family.
This release raised new privacy concerns: although it’s “just” tumor DNA, Henrietta’s genetic heritage is reflected in her descendants.
The Lacks family’s distress and intervention led to a historic meeting with the NIH (National Institutes of Health).
- A committee (including Lacks family representatives) now oversees access to the HeLa genome data, balancing scientific progress with respect and protection for the Lacks family’s privacy and legacy.
The family, now including grandchildren and great-grandchildren, steps into an active leadership/public role.

Notable Quotes:

[61:06] Rebecca Skloot: “You can, in fact, learn about people, and in fact, you cannot even hide people's private information if you try.”
[62:39] Adrienne Noe (Jerry Lacks): “Back in the 50s, ... Her cells were removed without her family's knowledge. ... Then you come 2013 and you have Henrietta's—I felt as though it was her medical records being published publicly.”
[64:32] Adrienne Noe (Jerry Lacks): “We don’t want to stop science, but yet we don’t want certain information to be just broadly available publicly.”
[65:54] Rebecca Skloot: “It’s the grandchildren, the third and fourth generation of Lackses. This is their story now.”

Episode Highlights and Themes

Cancer as Evolution: Tumors are not static; they are dynamic, evolving communities of cells, often acting as independent "organisms" over time—sometimes literally contagious and effectively immortal.
Science and Ethics: The story of Henrietta Lacks raises enduring questions about bodily autonomy, consent, and who benefits from scientific discovery—issues as urgent now as ever, especially with genetic data.
Human Stories within Science: Whether it's the pain and legacy of Henrietta Lacks or the existential questions raised by brain tumors, the podcast maintains a deep sensitivity to the lived experiences behind biological phenomena.
Memorable Imagery: The cigar box for Grant’s tumor, floating HeLa cells as “swirling hurricanes,” and the image of a daughter warming a vial of her mother’s cells—all evoke the deep entanglement of biology and humanity.

Timestamps by Segment

00:47 – Grant’s Tumor
04:46 – Devil Facial Tumor Disease
22:27 – Tumors as Gifts (Pleasure, Genius, or Spirituality)
35:10 – HeLa Story Begins
59:04 – HeLa Update: The Family and the Genome

Final Words

This episode is a quintessential Radiolab blend: science as detective story, medical history as human drama, and ethical complexity at the heart of innovation.
Henrietta’s story in particular continues to evolve: as her family moves from being voiceless to becoming stakeholders, the world is given a new blueprint for engaging with the people behind the data that drives medical progress.

Recommended Reading:
The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks by Rebecca Skloot

Find out more:
radiolab.org