Update: New Normal? - Radiolab | Wave AI Podcast Notes

Transcript

Jad Abumrad (0:00)

For delicious meals, you could go out to eat, or you could just make a Marie Callender's meal. Marie Callender's classic chicken parmigiano bowl is so good. It has marinara sauce that's made from scratch and creamy mozzarella cheese over pasta. It's delicious with no artificial flavors, colors or preservatives. And 30 grams of protein. You can find it in the frozen aisle. Marie Callender's what Having it all taste. Hey, this is JAD Radiolab. So what you're about to hear is a show we originally released about six, seven years ago. We decided to revisit it recently because it's been on our minds a lot. Let's just. I'll start it off and then I'll say more about it in a second. Wait, you're listening? Okay. All right.

Robert Krulwich (0:46)

Okay.

Jad Abumrad (0:48)

All right. You're listening to Radiolabs Radio Lab from wnyc. Okay, you ready?

Robert Krulwich (1:01)

Yep.

Jad Abumrad (1:01)

All right, let's open the show today. Test, test, test. On a sunny street corner in New Jersey. So where are we now? We are on Washington street, which is the main thoroughfare in Hoboken. It's a nice day in Hoboken. People are out and about after work. Is that sangria? What are you guys cooking here? And we're here with a guy. His name's John Horgan.

Stu Rasmussen (1:20)

I'm a science journalist.

Jad Abumrad (1:21)

He's. He's also a teacher. It is hot. And John is out today with our producer Lulu Miller, doing what he often does, which is to go up to someone he doesn't know. Excuse me, sir.

Aaron Scott (1:31)

We're doing a survey.

Jad Abumrad (1:33)

It only take a minute. At most a minute I can give you. And he asks them this one question. Here's the question. Will humans ever stop fighting wars once and for all?

Stu Rasmussen (1:47)

No. Because of greed and one upmanship to explain.

Jad Abumrad (1:53)

John has been asking this question, will humans ever stop fighting wars? For years. Because for him, this question, it's not just about war. It gets at something really basic. Do we feel we can change who we are? In any case, the first time it popped out of his mouth, it was 2003, and a friend had asked him to give a talk at a church just a few days after the first invasion of Iraq. And so here I was in this church. And I can remember the mood was very somber. I was determined to try to make people feel that, okay, this is a setback, but still, you've got to believe that peace is possible. And I tried to list all the reasons. And as he was making his case and getting worked up. He looked at the 60 or so people who were there in the audience. He said, all right, how many of you here believe that war will end someday?

Summary

Radiolab – “Update: New Normal?”
October 19, 2015
Hosts: Jad Abumrad & Robert Krulwich
Produced by WNYC Studios

Episode Overview

This episode revisits a Radiolab show first aired 6-7 years prior, focusing on whether humans are destined for conflict or capable of deep societal change. Through three compelling stories, the hosts explore the power of individual and collective choice to break cycles that seem “ingrained in our nature.” The stories—a baboon troop’s surprising behavioral transformation, the coming-out journey of a transgender mayor in conservative Oregon, and Soviet foxes bred for tameness—illustrate the malleability of what’s assumed to be “human (or animal) nature.” Throughout, the hosts question: are we trapped by destiny, or can we choose a new normal?

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Are Humans Doomed to Conflict? Street Interviews & Changing Attitudes

[01:33] Science journalist John Horgan has long asked: "Will humans ever stop fighting wars once and for all?"
- In the 1980s, about one in three thought war was inevitable; now nine out of ten say it will never end.
- Interviewees cite “human nature,” greed, and violence as reasons:
  
  “A lot of people are big, dumb animals, and they're just gonna keep fighting over useless things.” ([04:15])
- Hosts express a desire to challenge this fatalism.

2. STORY 1: Can Culture Overcome Primal Aggression? The Baboon Troop Experiment

The Experiment ([07:06]–[25:54])

Robert Sapolsky recounts his decades observing wild baboons:
- Traditionally aggressive, hierarchical societies—baboons were the model for hard-wired male violence.
- In the 1980s, most of the most aggressive (“alpha”) males in one troop died suddenly after eating tuberculosis-infected meat from a tourist lodge’s garbage dump.
- With the bullies gone, troop behavior changed dramatically:
  
  “You saw adult males sitting in contact with each other and grooming each other.” (Robert Sapolsky, [13:13])
- Incoming outsider males arrived with learned aggression, but the “gentler” culture persisted:
  
  "Oh my God. The new guys are learning. We don't do stuff like that here." (Sapolsky, [16:04])
- Key to the change: Females began grooming newcomers faster, breaking the usual cycle of isolation and aggression.

Does it Last?

Richard Wrangham (Harvard evolutionary biologist) pushes back: this isn’t ‘natural’—true change requires genetic evolution ([18:48]).
- Nevertheless, Sapolsky notes peaceful culture persisted for 20 years.
- However, by the time of the episode’s update, “junk food” destroys all culture: Easy food access from humans leads to troop fragmentation; aggression and gentleness both vanish ([25:24]).
- Memorable moment:
  
  “...they ran into some junk food, and then they have no culture.” (Jad Abumrad, [25:24])
- A metaphor for modern society’s distractions, with culture replaced by hedonism.

3. STORY 2: Radical Change in a Conservative Town – Stu Rasmussen, America’s First Openly Transgender Mayor

A Small Town’s Slow Transformation ([30:05]–[49:13])

Set in Silverton, Oregon, population ~9,000.
Stu Rasmussen, lifelong resident, begins to transition publicly over decades:
- Starts with painted nails, then cross-dressing for events, gradually becomes more open about gender identity.
- “The first test of the community.” ([34:10])
- Locals at first whisper, gawk gradually become used to change.
Gradual normalization (locals on why it worked):

“It happened so gradually…” (Kyle Palmer, [34:56])
“You’re talking about a native son who grew up here...he’s literally been in everybody’s home.” (Ken Hector, [43:09])
- The town, faced with a national protest by out-of-town extremists, unites in support—hundreds cross-dressing in solidarity:
  
  “They came out, 200 people, men in dresses, grandmothers, babies. It’s just amazing...that was the town, that wasn’t me.” (Stu Rasmussen, [48:16])

The Update

Stu is re-elected several times, featured in a musical, becomes a local celebrity.
“It’s become pretty much passé...it’s routine now.”
(Stu Rasmussen, [52:20])
The story has become a source of hope for others: people call Stu with thanks; visibility helps others come out.

4. STORY 3: Can We Breed Away Aggression? The Soviet Fox Experiment

The Science of Self-Domestication ([56:24]–[72:42])

Brian Hare explains Dmitry Belyaev’s experiment in Soviet Russia ([57:12]):
- Belyaev breeds foxes by strict selection for tameness; “mean” foxes are culled, “nice” foxes allowed to breed.
- After only ten generations (~10 years), foxes behave like puppies: seeking human affection, even wagging their tails ([61:06]).
- Unexpected side effects: floppy ears, curly tails, multicolored coats, smaller teeth, thinner bones ([61:57]).
- Theory: By selecting for behavioral tameness, you alter neural crest cell development affecting the whole body ([64:50]):
  
  “What you’re doing as a byproduct...is selecting for guys who don’t get as many of those cells into their ears...their skin...their teeth.”
- The process is analogized to possible changes in human evolution.

Are Humans Self-Domesticating?

Human society may have “bred out” aggression via collective punishment of bullies, favoring cooperative individuals ([69:08]):

“If you beat everybody up, you may not survive that.”
“We have domesticated ourselves.” (Wrangham, [70:35])
Traits of self-domestication in humans: smaller teeth, more gracile bones, potentially increased empathy/cooperation ([68:04]).
The hope: Future selection continues toward peace as we’re forced to “bump into each other” more often.

“The winners will be the domesticated ones. Everyone will get more empathetic...because that’s the only way you survive.” (Robert Krulwich, [71:42])

Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

"Will humans ever stop fighting wars once and for all?" – John Horgan’s perennial question [01:33]
“You saw adult males sitting in contact with each other and grooming each other.” – Robert Sapolsky [13:13]
“Oh my God. The new guys are learning. ‘We don’t do stuff like that here.’” – Sapolsky [16:04]
“...they ran into some junk food, and then they have no culture.” – Jad Abumrad [25:24]
"They came out, 200 people, men in dresses, grandmothers, babies. ...and that was the town, that wasn’t me.” – Stu Rasmussen [48:16]
“It’s become pretty much passé...it’s routine now.” – Stu Rasmussen [52:20]
“10 years is the answer.” – On how long it took to breed tame foxes, Krulwich/Hare [61:37]
“The winners will be the domesticated ones... Everyone will get more empathetic to each other because that’s the only way you survive. And we get gentler and gentler and gentler till lambs literally lie down with lions.” – Robert Krulwich [71:42]

Important Segment Timestamps

Opening & Street Surveys: [01:01]–[05:00]
Baboon Story: [07:06]–[26:00]
Silverton, Oregon/Stu Rasmussen: [30:05]–[49:13]
Stu Rasmussen Update: [49:50]–[53:26]
Soviet Fox Experiment: [56:24]–[68:04]
Human self-domestication / Conclusion: [68:04]–[73:12]

Conclusion

Radiolab’s “Update: New Normal?” is an inquiry into the mutability of supposedly fixed traits—aggression, conservatism, identity—across individuals, societies, and even species. Through vivid storytelling and scientific inquiry, the episode ultimately leaves the listener with hope (if cautious): what looks like destiny can, sometimes, be re-written through collective choice, cultural shift, and even—potentially—biology itself.

Radiolab’s Signature Tone

The signature Radiolab blend of curiosity, playful analogy, rigorous inquiry, and surprise is richly present. Jad and Robert’s narration is alternately hopeful and skeptical, with moments of dry wit and warmth. The show’s conclusion leaves listeners both humbled by the difficulty of lasting change—and inspired by its possibility.