Weighing Good Intentions

Summary

Radiolab Episode Summary: “Weighing Good Intentions”

Host: Lulu Miller and Jad Abumrad
Release Date: August 15, 2025
Episode Title: Weighing Good Intentions

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Introduction

In the episode "Weighing Good Intentions," Lulu Miller and Jad Abumrad delve into the complex intersection of conservation efforts and human costs. Through investigative journalism and compelling storytelling, the hosts explore the delicate balance between preserving endangered species and safeguarding human lives.

The Quest for the Kirtland's Warbler

Lulu Miller sets the stage by recounting her journey to Mayo, a small town in northern Michigan, driven by the pursuit of the elusive Kirtland's warbler—a bird so rare that birders often consider sightings lifetimes worth waiting for.

Lulu Miller [00:58]: "We're just outside of the town on the edge of the forest, about to go in... to see a bird. A very... lifebird."

Accompanied by enthusiasts from across the country, including individuals from Toledo, South Carolina, Oregon, and Wyoming, Lulu witnesses the exhilaration of spotting a Kirtland's warbler.

Jad Abumrad [03:00]: "Smaller than a robin. Beautiful yellow throat and breast. Brilliant yellow. And so in the sunlight, it's just an absolutely radiant bird."

This moment underscores the bird's significance and the lengths to which conservationists go to protect it.

The Threat of the Cowbird

The Kirtland's warbler faced near extinction in the early 1970s, primarily due to the parasitic brown-headed cowbird. These cowbirds lay their eggs in warbler nests, leading to the warblers' decline as their own eggs are displaced.

Lulu Miller [05:12]: "So the warbler mom ends up shoveling food into this cowbird chick."

To combat this, conservation efforts involved killing cowbirds and controlling their population through trapping.

Chris Mensing [05:51]: "Thoracic compression is the term we use. We basically squeeze the bird, suffocating it, preventing it from breathing."

Despite intensive trapping—resulting in the deaths of approximately 12,000 cowbirds by 1975—the warbler population did not recover as expected, prompting further investigation.

Prescribed Burns and the Mack Lake Fire

Rita Halbison from the Forest Service identified that the lack of young jack pine trees, essential for the warbler's habitat, was due to fire suppression policies introduced in the 1880s. Recognizing the need for controlled burns to regenerate the forest, the Forestry Service initiated prescribed burns.

Rita Halbison [07:49]: "This ecosystem is a fire ecosystem."

However, in 1980, a prescribed burn at Mack Lake went catastrophically wrong. Unexpected wind changes caused the fire to spiral out of control, rapidly engulfing 20,000 acres in a matter of hours.

Jad Abumrad [09:31]: "Within six hours, it had burned over 20,000 acres. It's one of the fastest moving fires ever documented."

Tragically, Jim Swiderski, a beloved wildlife technician dedicated to protecting the warbler, lost his life in the blaze.

Jim Swiderski's Brother, Robert [19:37]: "That would be the ultimate... being a state bird."

Community Impact and Ethical Dilemma

The Mack Lake fire left the Mayo community devastated, not only by the loss of homes but also by the heartbreaking death of Jim Swiderski. The incident fueled a profound ethical debate: Is the life of a fireman worth the life of a bird?

Ed Fawcett [13:32]: "I wouldn't trade your life for a bird."

Conservationists like Chris Mensing defended their actions by emphasizing stewardship of the land and future generations.

Chris Mensing [17:56]: "We do it because we should... we're stewards of the land."

Conversely, residents and Jim's family grappled with the loss, questioning the value placed on a single species over human lives.

Jad Abumrad [13:36]: "Is the life of a fireman worth the life of a bird?"

The Ongoing Struggle for Balance

Years after the Mack Lake fire, efforts to stabilize and grow the Kirtland's warbler population continue. Despite temporary successes, the population has faced new declines, necessitating sustained and costly interventions.

Chris Mensing [14:28]: "When are you done? And we really say never."

The episode concludes by reflecting on the enduring legacy of Jim Swiderski and the ongoing tension between conservation goals and human safety. It poses a poignant question to listeners: how do we prioritize and reconcile the preservation of nature with the value of human life?

Lulu Miller [21:07]: "Don't ask me any more questions, please."

Conclusion

“Weighing Good Intentions” masterfully captures the complexities and consequences of environmental conservation. It highlights the sacrifices made by individuals like Jim Swiderski and challenges listeners to contemplate the true cost of preserving our natural heritage. Through rich storytelling and emotional resonance, Radiolab invites us to reflect on the intricate dance between human endeavors and the natural world.

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Notable Quotes:

• Lulu Miller [00:01]: "Over the last few months, as we've been watching public lands come under peril... one of the best defenses of conservation I've ever heard."

• Jad Abumrad [13:32]: "Is the life of a fireman worth the life of a bird?"

• Chris Mensing [17:56]: "We have to keep killing the cowbirds and we have to keep doing burns, smaller burns. But every single year, if we let things be, the bird would be extinct."

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Final Thoughts

"Weighing Good Intentions" serves as a compelling narrative that intertwines environmental science, ethical considerations, and personal tragedy. It underscores the unintended consequences that can arise from well-meaning conservation efforts and urges a deeper examination of the values and decisions that shape our interaction with the natural world.

Transcript

[Lulu Miller]

This is Radiolab. I'm Lulu Miller. Over the last few months, as we've been watching public lands come under peril, massive cuts to the National Park Service, proposals to sell off millions of acres of public lands being debated. I keep thinking about this one moment in a piece I reported about 15 years ago in a kitchen in rural Michigan, I encountered one of the best defenses of conservation I've ever heard. And it came from such an unexpected person that it was almost like a jump scare. Anyway, I'm saying too much, so I'm going to turn it over now to og, host of this here program, Jad Abumrad, for a story we called Weighing Good Intentions.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah, wait, you're listening. Okay. All right. Okay. All right.

[Lulu Miller]

You're listening to Radiolab Radio Lab from wnyc.

[Jad Abumrad]

Rewind. Okay, so set up this story. This story happens where it's in a.

[Lulu Miller]

Little town in northern Michigan called Mayo. 7am Just drove through the Delaware Water Gap. That's me on my way out there from New York. The sun is rising and it's about an 800 mile drive and it's just gorgeous out here.

[Jad Abumrad]

Listen to you. Lush and all into the outdoors.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah, I know, but I'm just one of the. When I get out into nature, I feel my place in the world. Anyway, just crossed into Mayo.

[Jad Abumrad]

So you get there. What was the reason you were going again?

[Lulu Miller]

To see a bird. A very. Not just rare, not just the kind of bird birders get obsessed about, but this is a bird. This is what they call a lifebird.

[Jad Abumrad]

A life bird.

[Lulu Miller]

Birders wait their life to see it.

[Jad Abumrad]

Really?

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah. Only found right here.

[Jad Abumrad]

What's the bird called?

[Lulu Miller]

The Kirtland warbler. So now, have you seen a Kirtland before?

[Jad Abumrad]

No, I've never seen one. This is my first trip up here. This right here. Where are you?

[Lulu Miller]

We're just outside of the town on the edge of the forest, about to go in, and I'm standing with about 15 people who've come from everywhere. Where are you folks coming from to see this bird? Toledo.

[Chris Mensing]

I'm from South Carolina.

[Jad Abumrad]

We're from Oregon, South Dakota. From Dayton, Ohio area, Wyoming.

[Lulu Miller]

We'll walk out to a spot, try to stay safe, single file. Park ranger leads us down a path into a little clearing.

[Jad Abumrad]

And pretty immediately in the background there.

[Lulu Miller]

Way back there, a guy from Ohio spots a kirtland. There he is. Yeah, A tiny yellow bird back there, right there, up high in a jack. Pine tree. Oh, yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, great. It's singing like crazy.

[Lulu Miller]

The lady from Dayton starts clapping. You Describe what you're seeing.

[Jad Abumrad]

I see a lovely bird with a gray back.

[Lulu Miller]

This is a guy from Oregon, Jim Coleman.

[Jad Abumrad]

Blue gray back.

[Lulu Miller]

And his wife Rita.

[Jad Abumrad]

Smaller than a robin. Beautiful yellow throat and breast. Brilliant yellow. And so in the sunlight, it's just an absolutely radiant bird.

[Lulu Miller]

Is this worth the trip to Morgan?

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, you bet. I don't know. It just makes me thankful that I'm here. It makes me grateful that my wife is here. I know this is something she's wanted to see for a long time.

[Lulu Miller]

Jim actually starts to tear up.

[Jad Abumrad]

This is a very special bird.

[Lulu Miller]

Homo ham. And that's what this story is really about. How special is this bird?

[Jad Abumrad]

Meaning?

[Lulu Miller]

Well, how much is a species worth?

[Jad Abumrad]

Um.

[Lulu Miller]

Well, here's the backstory.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay.

[Lulu Miller]

In the early 70s, the warbler almost went extinct.

[Chris Mensing]

Want to go in?

[Lulu Miller]

Okay. The reason why it was thought that's just the sound of them laughing, was because of a little creature called the cowbird.

[Chris Mensing]

It's not doing anything good. It's just. It's a parasite, you know, and some.

[Jad Abumrad]

And who is this guy?

[Lulu Miller]

This is Chris Mensing, fish and wildlife.

[Chris Mensing]

Biologist with the U.S. fish and Wildlife Service.

[Lulu Miller]

And we're standing in this cage full of cowbirds.

[Chris Mensing]

It looks like we've got six males and one female. Let me grab a couple.

[Lulu Miller]

He just reached out and grabbed two of them. You're good at that.

[Chris Mensing]

The males. Yeah, go ahead.

[Jad Abumrad]

What do they look like?

[Lulu Miller]

It's like imagine a tiny little gnarly crow, got really sharp little beaks, but with this curled beak, it has a.

[Chris Mensing]

Very drab body, very dull.

[Lulu Miller]

So here's what the cowbird does to the warbler while the warbler is out of its nest.

[Jad Abumrad]

Like getting a worm or something.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah. The cowbird lays one of its own eggs in the nest to make room for it. So the warbler doesn't know anything is up. It pushes out one of the warbler's eggs.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, get out of the nest.

[Chris Mensing]

And the timing is such that the cowbird egg will hatch first and will double its size in 24 hours. So by the time that the host birds hatch, that cowbird may be up to four times the size. And when they start begging for food from the parents, the loudest, the most aggressive chick is going to get fed. The cowbird chick.

[Jad Abumrad]

So the warbler mom ends up shoveling food into this cowbird chick. Yep.

[Lulu Miller]

And oftentimes it gets so much food that another warbler chick will die.

[Jad Abumrad]

Really?

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah. So when the cowbirds first showed up.

[Chris Mensing]

In this area in the late 1800s, early 1900s.

[Lulu Miller]

The warbler population just started plummeting.

[Chris Mensing]

This huge drop. By 1971, there are only 200 males on Earth.

[Jad Abumrad]

Whoa.

[Lulu Miller]

So what do you do?

[Jad Abumrad]

Are you asking me? Mm. I guess you gotta kill the cowbirds.

[Lulu Miller]

Exactly.

[Chris Mensing]

This is one of 54 traps. It's a new one that we just.

[Lulu Miller]

Built this year, which is why we're out in this cage. It's actually a cowbird trap.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh.

[Lulu Miller]

Run, cowbird, run.

[Jad Abumrad]

She just bite me.

[Chris Mensing]

Yeah, she'd bite me just like anyone. If you get someone larger grabbing you, they don't appreciate it too much.

[Lulu Miller]

Anyone know how they kill them?

[Jad Abumrad]

I kind of do. Yeah.

[Chris Mensing]

Thoracic compression is the term we use. We basically squeeze the bird, suffocating it, preventing it from breathing.

[Lulu Miller]

Just with your hands. There's no.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yep.

[Lulu Miller]

Do you have to do that? Yeah, like, all the time.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah. Did you see this?

[Lulu Miller]

No, but. 1972, Fish and Wildlife Service sets up a bunch of traps. A few years and about 12,000 dead cowbirds later.

[Chris Mensing]

It works.

[Lulu Miller]

Kinda, Earl. The population stopped dying off, but then it didn't start bouncing back.

[Jad Abumrad]

What's going on? Yeah. Why aren't we seeing bigger numbers now that we're catching the cowbirds?

[Lulu Miller]

That's Rita Halbison. She worked with the Forest Service back in the 80s.

[Jad Abumrad]

And we thought, well, we finally concluded it must be just. There is not enough habitat. Like, they don't have enough trees. Is that what you.

[Lulu Miller]

Well, no, there are plenty of trees. But the thing about warblers is they like a specific kind of tree. They like them very young. That was weird. I could feel it as I was saying it. They like them young.

[Jad Abumrad]

No, but they like young trees is what you're saying.

[Lulu Miller]

Yep.

[Jad Abumrad]

And there aren't young trees in this place?

[Lulu Miller]

No. It's really weird when. When they started looking around this forest, they noticed all the trees were really, really old.

[Jad Abumrad]

Why. Why wouldn't there be?

[Lulu Miller]

Young trees can prevent forest fire, and it's trim. Hey, hey, Smokey Bear. See, when humans began to settle in this area of Michigan in about the 1880s, they brought with them that certain human disdain for fire.

[Jad Abumrad]

Only you can prevent forest fires.

[Lulu Miller]

But fire is exactly what's needed up there to make new trees.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Chris Mensing]

This ecosystem is a fire ecosystem, says Chris.

[Lulu Miller]

It burns because when these trees burn, they release their seeds and make room for new trees to grow.

[Chris Mensing]

It is a fire ecosystem. It is made to burn.

[Lulu Miller]

So I ask you again, what do you do?

[Jad Abumrad]

Do you start fires? Would that be the solution?

[Lulu Miller]

That would be the solution. So the forestry started doing what we.

[Jad Abumrad]

Call a prescribed burn.

[Lulu Miller]

Basically says Rita. They burned down a little patch of forest, a few acres to regenerate it. And one windy spring day in 1980, at a place called Mack Lake, the forestry service started a fire that they probably shouldn't have.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay, my name is Dick Lord, and I, at the time of the Mack lake fire, I was part of the ignition crew for the prescribed burn.

[Lulu Miller]

What is an ignition crew?

[Jad Abumrad]

They light the fire.

[Lulu Miller]

So at 10 in the morning, Dick and his crew go out into the.

[Jad Abumrad]

Woods, went out with a plan, start.

[Lulu Miller]

Setting up perimeters, and they begin lighting a few stands of shrub.

[Jad Abumrad]

I was driving home.

[Lulu Miller]

That's Bob Burner, Best name ever for a firefighter.

[Jad Abumrad]

I could see forest service starting to do a burn, and I thought, this is not a good time. It was windy. They didn't have the manpower. And I said, we'll probably be getting called out here shortly. Basically, we did not realize that the weather was going to change as rapidly as it did. The wind came up suddenly, something nobody could predict. And it took the fire across the road into a stand of mature jack pine and took off. There are flames probably 100 to 150ft in the air. The sound is like a roaring train.

[Lulu Miller]

The forest guys jump into their bulldozers, trying to plow trenches alongside the fire.

[Jad Abumrad]

To pinch it off. And I mean, you could feel the heat. It was way out of our control, Hitting the tops of the trees, rolling. I knew at the rate it was traveling that it was going to be a major catastrophe.

[Lulu Miller]

Within six hours, it had burned over 20,000 acres. It's one of the fastest moving fires ever documented.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah, it went through here. Fire, as you can see, was all black.

[Lulu Miller]

These are two guys.

[Jad Abumrad]

Hi, Bob.

[Lulu Miller]

Who own houses in the area that got burnt.

[Jad Abumrad]

I remember the guy down there in the corner. Garage was all burned up, Black, charred.

[Lulu Miller]

Their houses were okay, but 41 houses.

[Jad Abumrad]

Were destroyed all the way up to.

[Lulu Miller]

The lake, Just completely.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah. Wasn't nothing green like something out of a moonscape as far as you could see, Everything gone. And the worst part about it for all of us.

[Lulu Miller]

Let's read a Helbison again.

[Jad Abumrad]

Was that it killed one of the forest service employees, A very young wildlife technician who was very well loved by.

[Lulu Miller]

His co workers, a guy named Jim Swiderski.

[Jad Abumrad]

You know, Jim was a good friend as well as an employee.

[Lulu Miller]

Dick Lord again, Jim's boss, he told me that Jim had been a postman for a few years, but just loved birds so much that he took a huge pay cut to come and help Protect the warbler.

[Jad Abumrad]

Basically what happened was the fire overran him. Oh, the press was having a heyday, just tearing into the Forest Service for what had happened. The townspeople were very angry at the Forest Service. How could you do this?

[Lulu Miller]

Rita says they were told not to wear their Forest service uniforms in town.

[Jad Abumrad]

Gosh, it was so terrible.

[Lulu Miller]

And the forest itself, you know, there was nothing there. It was completely silent. But a year later, a little bit of green started to poke up. Then the next year, a little bit more.

[Jad Abumrad]

Eight to ten years after that mack like burn just seemed like everywhere you turned around, you'd stop for listen. There were five or six birds, a tremendous number of warblers. That was the answer to the mystery, the fire.

[Chris Mensing]

You know, if you look at a.

[Lulu Miller]

Population graph, that's Chris Mensing again after.

[Chris Mensing]

That Mac Lake burn, population went like that.

[Lulu Miller]

He points his hand straight up.

[Chris Mensing]

So it's pretty dramatic.

[Lulu Miller]

And today the numbers are up to almost 4,000 birds. Ah, there he is. Yeah, and growing.

[Jad Abumrad]

Singing like crazy.

[Lulu Miller]

Now that the birds are back. But a man is gone. When you walk around this town, a question lingers in the air.

[Jad Abumrad]

Is the life of a fireman worth the life of a bird?

[Lulu Miller]

That question right after the break. You want in on a secret? All year it's been bro podcast this and bro podcast that. Here's what they're not telling you. Women are the fastest growing force in podcasts. I'm Brittany Luce, and on the It's Been a Minute podcast podcast, I create a space for curious and culturally savvy listeners like you. Come and share a laugh with me and hundreds of thousands of other listeners as we dissect the biggest trends of the day. Let's get smarter together. Listen to the It's Been a Minute podcast today. Lulu Radiolab. Just before the break, a well intentioned fire had turned deadly and it left a town wondering.

[Jad Abumrad]

Is the life of a fireman worth the life of a bird? Oh, take a look. Take a look. Is it? That's incredible. Got him. I got him. No, in my opinion, it isn't.

[Lulu Miller]

This is Ed Fawcett.

[Jad Abumrad]

I wouldn't trade your life for a bird.

[Lulu Miller]

I'm sitting with him and his wife Mary Jane.

[Jad Abumrad]

Amen.

[Lulu Miller]

In a diner. And no matter where you go in.

[Jad Abumrad]

This town, what's the government doing?

[Lulu Miller]

People don't tend to be huge fans of the warbler.

[Jad Abumrad]

It's just a small bird and I've been up here since 68. I've never seen one.

[Lulu Miller]

Did you ever see one?

[Jad Abumrad]

No, never have I seen one. I'VE never seen one. No.

[Lulu Miller]

And back to Ed.

[Jad Abumrad]

I just gotta say to you, what would you think about it if your father or brother were killed in a useless fire for a bird? Be pretty hard to accept, wouldn't it?

[Lulu Miller]

But if you zoom out one human life versus the end of a species.

[Jad Abumrad]

You know how many warblers there are in the United States? I think there's something like 37 species of warblers.

[Lulu Miller]

The real number's actually closer to 60.

[Jad Abumrad]

That's kind of ridiculous.

[Lulu Miller]

And that's not all they ask you.

[Chris Mensing]

When are you done? And we really say never.

[Lulu Miller]

Chris explained to me that they have to keep killing the cowbirds and they have to keep doing burns, smaller burns. But every single year, if we let.

[Chris Mensing]

Things be, the bird would be extinct. That's the hard thing about this job, is knowing that we're never done.

[Lulu Miller]

How many people are working? How much?

[Chris Mensing]

You're probably looking at hundreds of people dollars. You know, we could be looking at, you know, well over a million dollars a year spent.

[Lulu Miller]

And all this began to really sink in on one of my last mornings out there. All right, it is five in the morning. It was the annual Kirtland warbler census, where birders from all over the world show up to help count how many warblers there are out there.

[Jad Abumrad]

Is it like there's a warbler? Step, step, step, step.

[Lulu Miller]

There's a warbler. Yeah, that's actually exactly how it works. I was paired up with this guy, Dave Mendez.

[Jad Abumrad]

We're gonna kind of walk through the middle of these transects. We're gonna come up.

[Lulu Miller]

He's kind of a dude. Dude. He's an older guy, got a beard.

[Jad Abumrad]

I work for an electrical contractor.

[Lulu Miller]

Told me he's got a man room.

[Jad Abumrad]

Man room. You know, most guys have got sports, but I've got Kirtland's warbler pictures up on the wall. Nice.

[Lulu Miller]

So I went into it thinking, like, this will be really cool. We'll march along, we'll count em. I looked at the map. It was a mile, maybe of a walk. We'll be done in 20 minutes. Well, okay, maybe not. We're walking through the forest on our tops.

[Jad Abumrad]

Hey, Dave.

[Lulu Miller]

Oh, there you go. We set off. Dense, brambly forest. Still dark. Is that one.

[Jad Abumrad]

That was a hermit thrush. Okay.

[Lulu Miller]

And let me just play you a quick little time lapse.

[Jad Abumrad]

20 to 7. Right now the sun's just coming up, and it's getting a little muggy out here. That was the Kirtlands.

[Lulu Miller]

Oh, yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yep. We can't count him, though. He's not in our section. 707. I heard one way back. That way. Yeah, yeah, there he is again. Yeah, but I'm not gonna mark him in because I don't know exactly where he's at. 7:33. There he goes. Yeah, right there.

[Lulu Miller]

So do you count him out?

[Jad Abumrad]

No, no, no, no. We want to be a lot more accurate than just to say we know there's one up there. We want to triangulate them. 9:56. And all's well in the warbler woods.

[Lulu Miller]

Hey, a couple of ants are biting me.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah, they hurt, don't they?

[Lulu Miller]

They do a little bit, yeah. Get out of there.

[Jad Abumrad]

10:45Am I know that there's a bird out there. I can still hear that bird way back there.

[Lulu Miller]

So we end up staying out there for seven and a half hours. We just marked one, right?

[Jad Abumrad]

Yep. I've only marked one.

[Lulu Miller]

And I don't mean to sound like I'm making fun of Dave. I mean, he's doing his job well. But at some point, in between the fire ants and taking four hours to confirm this one bird, he's gonna be.

[Jad Abumrad]

Right off over here.

[Lulu Miller]

I just started thinking about all the effort it takes.

[Jad Abumrad]

Two rows of trees over from us and we can't see them.

[Lulu Miller]

I just suddenly thought, it's this fussy, fragile little bird and it hasn't evolved. Who cares? I mean, this is not worth it. And so I started asking people who protect the bird, why do that with so much money? And it's all for a bird. And I could see it maybe if it was for some, but it's just one warbler of 18 million different kinds of warblers. Like, why do it?

[Chris Mensing]

Well, we do it because we should, you know, we're stewards of the land.

[Lulu Miller]

That's Chris Mensing again. Cowbird killer.

[Chris Mensing]

It's for future generations.

[Lulu Miller]

And here's the fire starter, Dick Lord.

[Jad Abumrad]

You know, the Kirtland's warbler was listed under the Endangered Species act, and we had a charge under the law to do what we could to recover its existence. And that's the only thing that I can say that, you know, we had to do what the law required us.

[Lulu Miller]

To do, so we should do it. And the law tells us we have to do it. Unconvincing. And that question, is the life of.

[Jad Abumrad]

A fireman worth the life of a bird?

[Lulu Miller]

And that guy Ed at the diner, it just stuck in my mind. And I realized I couldn't leave this town until I talked to the people who lost the most. Can I just get you to introduce yourselves. Yeah, sure.

[Jad Abumrad]

Robert Swiderski, age 54. Kathleen Swiderski, Florence Swiderski, the mother. Mother. And the mother of James Swiderski, the guy who died.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay. Want iced tea or water or anything?

[Lulu Miller]

We're all sitting around the kitchen table.

[Jad Abumrad]

There's a lot of hot dogs and beer over there.

[Lulu Miller]

Jim's brother in law is there too.

[Jad Abumrad]

So. I'm Calvin, Calvin Debris.

[Lulu Miller]

And I asked them to tell me about Jim.

[Jad Abumrad]

Quite a guy. Soft spoken, smart. Quite a character.

[Lulu Miller]

Yup, they told me. At first they were furious.

[Jad Abumrad]

They should have never ever sent him in there.

[Lulu Miller]

Angry at the Forest Service, angry about this bird.

[Jad Abumrad]

Very angry.

[Lulu Miller]

Now, three decades later, I say, you.

[Jad Abumrad]

Keep that little bird going. Exactly. Really?

[Lulu Miller]

Then Jim's younger brother Robert said that the thing he wanted the most is for the Kirtlands warbler to become the state bird.

[Jad Abumrad]

That would be the ultimate. That would be the biggest accomplishment ever, would be that being a state bird.

[Lulu Miller]

Wow. I guess I'm. I'm. I guess in some ways I'm surprised. I didn't mean to come here with expectations, but in some ways I thought if it was my family, that I would hate that bird, but I would just hate that bird.

[Jad Abumrad]

No, it's not the bird. I mean, that bird didn't do anything to any of us. You know, if we can keep it going, I mean, that's what he set out to do. Let's keep it going.

[Lulu Miller]

They think about Jim's death, any of the military, like the death of a soldier.

[Jad Abumrad]

Where would you be sitting right now if we wouldn't have lost all those soldiers in World War I, World War.

[Lulu Miller]

II, that he died protecting us?

[Jad Abumrad]

You know, it's only one species. Well, then it's going to be another species and another species and another species. Next thing you know, you walk out in the morning and it'll be quiet. Thank God for Teddy Roosevelt and the boys that made our national parks. Imagine. What if we didn't have those? It costs money, it's painful, blah, blah, blah. You gotta have the guts to do that. And Jim was really that kind of guy. Well, that is good.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah. But I mean, do you agree, Florence? Then I asked the mom, what can I say?

[Jad Abumrad]

The birds are coming back, but the life is gone, so why bring it up again? It's done. You can't bring it back, so you have to live with it. But there's always a hole in your heart. Something it's none of us will ever forget forever. Don't ask me any more questions, please.

[Lulu Miller]

And then if ever there was a sign to just turn off the darn mic.

[Jad Abumrad]

There she goes again.

[Lulu Miller]

Oh, the power goes out.

[Jad Abumrad]

So beat. Give me a break. They go home, get the generator. I think we're done. Pretty dark.

[Lulu Miller]

Okay, Lulu from 2025 here again. Since I reported this story in 2010, a couple things have changed for that little bird. The biggest thing is that in 2019, the US Fish and Wildlife Service officially removed the Kirtland's warbler from the endangered species list. That meant the bird had surpassed recovery goals. Since then, the population has begun to decline again. But the Michigan Department of Natural Resources say they feel confident they have the tools and resources to stabilize the population. And one more thing. A few years back, I called up Robert Swiderski just to check in and ask how everyone was doing. And he said that his mom, Florence, I remember this, he said, she ain't cooking, but she's still kicking. At that point, she was 92. Since then she has passed away. And a note on her obituary online suggested that in her memory, in lieu of flowers, you might plant a tree.

[Jad Abumrad]

Hi, I'm Victor from Springfield, Missouri and here are the staff credits. Radiolab was created by Jad Abumrad and edited by Soren Wheeler. Lulu Miller and Lasa Nasser are our co hosts. Dylan Keefe is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Bresser, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Maria Paz Gutierrez, Sanyu Nananzamandan, Matt Kilty, Annie McKeown, Alex Neeson, Sara Kari, Sarah Sandbeck, Anissa Ritsa, Arianne Wak, Pat Walters, Molly Webster and Jessica Young with help from Rebecca Grant. Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, Ana Pujol, Mangini and Natalie Middleton. Hi, I'm Jerry and I'm calling from Kafsoar Kenya. Leadership support for Radiolab. Science programming is provided by the Simons foundation and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

[Lulu Miller]

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