Radiolab: “What Does Technology Want?”
Original air date: November 16, 2010
Location: Live at the New York Public Library
Episode Overview
This lively episode of Radiolab, hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, explores the provocative idea that technology, as a complex system, may have its own tendencies and “wants”—borrowing the language of biological evolution to understand the past, present, and future of human innovation. The conversation features special guests Kevin Kelly (author of What Technology Wants) and Steven Johnson (author of Where Good Ideas Come From), who engage in a spirited, sometimes skeptical, and always curious debate about technology’s trajectory, inevitability, autonomy, and the parallels between technological and biological evolution.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. What Does Technology Want?
[01:26–04:12]
- Kevin Kelly introduces the concept of “the technium”—the entire web of interdependent technologies as a superorganism:
“All the spoons and everything else connected together...does form something that does begin in a very small way to have the slimmest bit of autonomy.” [02:40]
- Technology is more than the sum of its parts; its evolution and growth reflect patterns beyond any single new gadget.
2. The Nature of Innovation and the Myth of “Eureka”
[04:12–07:00]
- Steven Johnson discusses the “slow hunch” model of creativity:
“The breakthrough idea...is incubating for a very long period of time. It actually builds upon other ideas by other people. It’s more of a...remixing of other people’s concepts and...fades into view over a much longer period of time.” [05:13]
- Kevin Kelly notes “multiple discovery” is common, where big ideas or inventions often arise independently and nearly simultaneously:
“The telephone: patents were submitted by Alexander Graham Bell and [Elisha] Gray within three hours of each other.” [07:01]
“The light bulb that we associate with Thomas Edison...he was the last of 23 other people.” [07:15]
3. The “Adjacent Possible”
[08:19–09:09]
- Both guests are fans of Stuart Kauffman’s concept of the “adjacent possible,” where, given the current state, only a set of next-step innovations are possible.
“You cannot invent a microwave oven in 1650, just as you cannot invent an automobile in ancient Egypt.” —Steven Johnson [08:41]
4. Technology as Evolution
[11:00–16:20]
- Kelly draws direct parallels between technological development and biological evolution:
“The things that we make are really just an extension of the same evolutionary processes that made us.” [14:36]
- He shares the example of evolutionary trees tracking both trilobites (ancient sea creatures) and cornets (the musical instrument), showing the similar branching structures, hinting at similar processes.
5. The “Seventh Kingdom” — Life or Not?
[15:11–16:20]
- Kelly provocatively proposes the technium as a “seventh kingdom” of life:
“I place again, the question I’m asking in a larger context is what is this stuff that we’re making and surrounding ourselves with? ... It’s really part of something that’s been going on for a long time.” [15:54]
6. Creepy Destinies: Autonomy and Inevitability
[16:24–21:30]
- The hosts grapple with the unsettling idea that technology might have inner logics not fully under human control:
“Technology creates itself, using humans to do its bidding. Or humans cannot direct or prevent technology’s course, at least not in the long run. Like water contained behind a dam, relentlessly seeking escape, technology will eventually find its own way. Doesn’t that creep you out…?” —Robert Krulwich [17:23]
- Kelly responds:
“No, you’re part of technology too. Don’t you understand that we humans have made, have invented ourselves...We have domesticated ourselves. We are going to continue doing that. So...you are technology. Does that bother you?” [18:07]
- Discussion of current-day internet as a proto-autonomous system:
“Now, if we wanted to [turn the Internet] off, it would be extremely difficult...” —Jad Abumrad [19:21] “It’s impossible.” —Kevin Kelly [19:29]
7. Are We Making Minds Beyond Ourselves?
[21:30–23:17]
- Kelly sees technology’s “want” as part of evolution’s drive toward diverse forms of intelligence:
“I think what we are doing is we’re kind of evolution’s way to invent minds that evolution, biological evolution could not make. ...Our mind alone is probably not sufficient to completely comprehend the universe. We need other species of thinking.” [22:05]
- Johnson and Kelly differ on timescale optimism:
“Kevin is saying, absolutely. On the 10,000 year scale, we’re going to be great.” —Jad Abumrad [23:08]
“But next year?” —Kevin Kelly
“What about next Tuesday? Both are valid concerns.” —Jad Abumrad [23:17]
8. Memorable Closing and Optimism
[23:26–23:56]
- Kelly breaks into a rendition of Monty Python’s “Always Look on the Bright Side of Life,” encapsulating his generally optimistic outlook on technological growth.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- Kevin Kelly on autonomy:
“The technium, which is the word I use to distinguish this whole superorganism of technology, it's leaning in certain directions. It has certain tendencies. So it wants to go in certain directions.” [03:21]
- Steven Johnson on myth of single genius:
“You find is, in fact, that the idea was incubating for a very long period of time...It actually builds upon other ideas by other people. It’s more of a kind of a remixing.” [05:13]
- Robert Krulwich’s skepticism:
“You are saying that living systems...the logic of living systems also belongs to these inanimate things. The history of technology sounds like, from both of you, sounds suspiciously like the history of life.” [13:12]
- Kelly’s defense of technology as kin to life:
“We have this external stomach, we call it cooking, that has...changed our teeth, our jaws. We have remade ourselves. When we become literate, our brains are rewired, we think differently. ...We have domesticated ourselves.” [18:07]
- On the future:
“We’re going to populate the universe as far as we can with other ways of thinking so that collectively we can comprehend the universe.” —Kevin Kelly [22:05]
- Closing optimism:
“Always look on the bright side of life.” [23:26]
Timestamps for Important Segments
- [01:26] – Kelly introduces the “superorganism” idea
- [04:12] – Johnson explains “slow hunch” and innovation
- [07:01] – Multiple discovery: telephone & light bulb examples
- [08:19] – Adjacent possible concept
- [11:00] – Parallels between evolution of nature and technology
- [15:54] – “Seventh kingdom” argument
- [17:23] – Concerns about technology’s autonomy “creeping us out”
- [18:07] – Humans as part of technology and self-domestication
- [19:21] – The un-shut-Downable Internet
- [22:05] – The need to “populate the universe with minds”
- [23:26] – Musical optimism with Monty Python
Overall Tone and Style
The tone of the episode is inquisitive, playful, and skeptical, with moments of philosophical awe and existential unease. Kelly’s optimism about the creative potential and inevitability of technological evolution is balanced by Krulwich’s and Abumrad’s pointed, sometimes humorous, challenges about autonomy, unpredictability, and the possible loss of control.
For Listeners Who Missed the Episode
If you haven’t listened, this episode offers a thoughtful and entertaining debate about whether technology simply responds to human needs or follows deeper currents comparable to biological evolution. The guests challenge the myth of the lone genius and push listeners to consider their place within the accelerating, interconnected technosphere—and what it might mean to be both the author and effect of ongoing technological change.