Why Don't Sex Scandals Matter Anymore?

Summary

Radiolab Episode Summary: Why Don't Sex Scandals Matter Anymore?

Podcast Information:

• Title: Radiolab
• Host/Author: WNYC Studios
• Description: Radiolab explores deep questions through investigative journalism, navigating through science, legal history, and personal stories with innovative sound design. Hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Episode Title: Why Don't Sex Scandals Matter Anymore?

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Introduction: Revisiting a Pivotal Political Scandal

Latif Nasser opens the episode by situating listeners in the midst of the U.S. election season. While Radiolab typically steers away from direct news coverage, this episode revisits a 2016 story about the evolution of media coverage in presidential campaigns, focusing on the 1987 Gary Hart scandal. Nasser collaborates with Brooke Gladstone, host of the WNYC show On the Media, to provide both a historical perspective and an updated analysis.

Latif Nasser [01:18]: "How you doing, Brooke?"

Brooke Gladstone [36:35]: "Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. It does."

---

The Gary Hart Scandal: A Turning Point in Political Journalism

The core narrative recounts the 1987 scandal involving Senator Gary Hart, the then-frontrunner for the Democratic presidential nomination. Hart's campaign imploded after a tip-off revealed his affair with Donna Rice, a young woman from Miami.

Initial Coverage and Ethical Dilemmas

Reporter Tom Fiedler of the Miami Herald received an anonymous tip about Hart's affair. Faced with the ethical quandary of balancing public interest and personal privacy, Fiedler and his team decided to pursue the story, believing that Hart's integrity was crucial for his presidential aspirations.

Jamie York [03:19]: "Gary Hart is having an affair with one of my best friends."

Latif Nasser [12:17]: "The rules have changed."

The Stakeout and Confrontation

Fiedler orchestrated a stakeout at Hart's Washington townhouse. The tension culminated when Hart confronted the reporters in an alleyway, refusing to divulge information and ultimately walking away, signaling the end of his campaign.

Jamie York [21:18]: "Gary Hart is finished as a presidential candidate."

Impact on Media and Politics

The scandal marked a seismic shift in political journalism. Previously, personal indiscretions of politicians were often overlooked, but Hart's downfall underscored the media's new focus on character and personal ethics as pivotal factors in evaluating political leaders.

Matt Bai [05:04]: "This is the moment... When political journalism slid off the rails."

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Evolving Media Ethics: Perspectives from Industry Experts

The episode features insights from various media figures, including Cokie Roberts, Leslie Stahl, and Matt Bai, who discuss the broader implications of the Hart scandal on journalism's role in politics.

Cokie Roberts on Media Evolution

Roberts emphasizes that the increasing number of women in political reporting and the influence of the women's movement ("the personal is political") expanded the media's consideration of a candidate's personal behavior as indicative of their character.

Cokie Roberts [31:03]: "We elect our presidents based on who they are, not on what policies they stand for."

Leslie Stahl's Conservative Approach

Contrasting Roberts, Stahl admits to maintaining a more traditional boundary, avoiding probing into personal matters despite recognizing their potential relevance.

Leslie Stahl [33:33]: "I just didn't want to ask about it."

Matt Bai on Changing Journalism Standards

Bai reflects on how Gary Hart's scandal forced journalism to adapt, prioritizing character assessment alongside policy analysis.

Matt Bai [10:04]: "He was cool and smart. Women liked him too."

---

Modern-Day Parallels: The Trump Era and Shifting Media Landscapes

The episode draws parallels between the Hart scandal and contemporary political scandals, notably those surrounding Donald Trump. Unlike Hart, Trump's multiple allegations of sexual misconduct have seemingly less impact on his political standing.

Partisan Polarization and Media Distrust

Brooke Gladstone and Latif Nasser discuss how today's rigid partisanship and fragmented media consumption contribute to scandals having diminished effects. The electorate's cynicism and the prevalence of misinformation further erode the impact of personal indiscretions.

Brooke Gladstone [37:36]: "This has to do, at least in part, with an evolution since the time of Gary Hart."

Jad Abumrad [37:07]: "This is a profoundly cynical time."

Media's Role in Amplifying or Diminishing Scandals

The episode critiques the modern media's tendency to prioritize sensationalism and distraction over substantive reporting, leading to ethical paralysis and a focus on trivial issues that overshadow significant political matters.

Jad Abumrad [42:26]: "Causes a kind of emotional, intellectual and maybe even ethical paralysis."

---

Conclusion: The Future of Political Scandals and Media Ethics

Latif Nasser and Jad Abumrad reflect on the symbiotic relationship between media and political leadership, suggesting that the direction of future journalism depends on both media choices and public demand for accountability versus entertainment.

Jad Abumrad [43:13]: "But if our media and our leadership offer us something else, we can be better."

Latif Nasser [43:52]: "Tabloid coverage will give you tabloid presidents, I guess, is the vision there."

Brooke Gladstone wraps up by highlighting the necessity for media to curate news that clarifies rather than muddies public understanding, advocating for a more responsible journalism landscape.

Brooke Gladstone [34:18]: "Some things may be interesting, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're important."

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Key Takeaways

• Gary Hart's Scandal as a Catalyst: The 1987 affair revealed the media's shifting focus towards politicians' personal lives, prioritizing character alongside policy.

• Media Ethics Transformation: Increased scrutiny of public figures' personal behavior became normalized, influenced by broader social movements and changing journalistic standards.

• Modern Partisanship and Cynicism: Today's polarized electorate and fragmented media landscape reduce the impact of individual scandals, as partisan biases and media sensationalism overshadow ethical considerations.

• Future of Political Reporting: The relationship between media practices and political accountability remains dynamic, with potential for either continued sensationalism or a return to more substantive journalism.

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Notable Quotes

• Gary Hart's Statement [34:26]:

  "Politics in this country... is on the verge of becoming another form of athletic competition or sporting match."

• Cokie Roberts on Media Responsibility [32:24]:

  "You can split off, how's he going to be as president? And you know, is he cheating on his wife?"

• Kevin Sweeney on the Press Conference [28:56]:

  "When I heard that response, I felt it. I felt it. The tone was such that it felt like defeat."

---

Production Credits

• Produced by: Simon Adler, Jamie York, Rebecca Lacks
• Hosted by: Latif Nasser and Jad Abumrad
• Special Contributions: Brooke Gladstone, Cokie Roberts, Leslie Stahl, Matt Bai, Kevin Sweeney

Further Resources

• Book Referenced: Matt Bai's All the Truth Is Out
• Website: Radiolab.org

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This summary encapsulates the comprehensive exploration of the evolution of political sex scandals and media coverage from the Gary Hart era to the present day, highlighting the intricate dynamics between journalism ethics, media practices, and public perception.

Transcript

[Latif Nasser]

Radiolab is supported by Dell Shop Dell Technologies Black Friday event for their lowest prices of the year. The Future is on sale today with limited time deals on select PCs like the XPS 16 that accelerate AI with Intel Core Ultra processors. Black Friday is their biggest sale of the year and the best time to upgrade. But it's only here for a limited time. Shop now at Dell.com deals that's Dell.com/deals. Radiolab is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. Listener supported WNYC Studios.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Yeah, wait, you're listening.

[Kevin Sweeney]

Okay.

[Jad Abumrad]

All right. Okay. All right. You're listening.

[Kevin Sweeney]

Listening to Radio Lab Radio from wnyc.

[Latif Nasser]

Rewind. Hey, I'm Latif Nasser, this is Radiolab. And here in the USA it is election season. And while we are not a cover the news kind of show, typically we have done a number of stories about elections in politics over the years. And so this week I wanted to resurface one of those shows, but I also wanted to give it a little update.

[Jad Abumrad]

Here we are.

[Latif Nasser]

How you doing, Brooke?

[Jad Abumrad]

Good. Really good. Great to talk to you, really.

[Latif Nasser]

So this is Brooke Gladstone, longtime host of the show on the Media. I called her up in her home because we had done this story back in 2016, just nine months before Trump was elected president. It was about how the media covers presidential campaigns, how we, the public, think about our candidates. And when I re listened to the episode, I felt like it was perfectly speaking to the political moment that we're in right now, but then also simultaneously totally outdated.

[Jad Abumrad]

Mm.

[Latif Nasser]

Do you agree with that? Do you think that's true in some way?

[Jad Abumrad]

Absolutely.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay.

[Jad Abumrad]

And I have thoughts, though maybe not the ones pertaining to what is the profound nature of our humanity that you may want to get to.

[Latif Nasser]

Well, that was the number one question. But Brooke did show me how the last eight years have evolved out of, but also completely rewritten that story. So I'm going to play you the original show. Like I said, we did it back in 2016. So you will hear Jad and Robert, our original host. And then I'll come back on the flip side to talk to Brooke. So here we go.

[Tom Fiedler]

So we're going to take you back to an evening in 1987. Tom Fiedler, ACE political reporter for the Miami Herald. It's late at night and he's in his office.

[Jamie York]

I'm sat in my desk and just in fact, packing up to go home. My phone rang and I'm thinking, oh, it's probably my wife and she's wondering why I haven't left yet. I said, all right, all right, I'll pick it up. But when he picked up the phone, turned out this.

[Tom Fiedler]

It turned out it was not a voice he recognized, it was a woman's voice, maybe in her late 20s. And she said to him, I have something you need to know. It was a tip about one of the most powerful and charismatic men in American politics, former Senator Gary Hart, who at the time was not only the most likely candidate to become the Democratic nominee, he was very possibly going to be the next president of the United States.

[Jamie York]

Her words to me were, gary Hart is having an affair with one of my best friends.

[Tom Fiedler]

And she told him, basically, I can prove it.

[Jamie York]

And, you know, I was rather, I guess, dumbstruck by that. And he thought, well, now what do we do?

[Robert Krulwich]

Now? If you're of a certain age, you probably remember this story. You probably know what happens next. But even if you've never heard of Gary Hart, you still probably know the outline of this story. The accusation, accusations, then the denial.

[Brooke Gladstone]

I did not have sexual relations with that woman.

[Robert Krulwich]

And then after that, the whole wall to wall media thing, which just goes on and on and on until you want to take your head off your shoulders, put it on the sidewalk and beat it with a baseball bat. But the thing that's easy to forget is that it wasn't always like this.

[Matt Bai]

No, Hart was the first to walk into this vortex of social forces, sex scandal. And after that, the rules of political journalism and politics change almost immediately.

[Tom Fiedler]

That, by the way, is Matt Bai.

[Matt Bai]

National political columnist for Yahoo News.

[Tom Fiedler]

He wrote a book about this incident which he called all the Truth Is Out.

[Robert Krulwich]

And in that book he makes the argument that this is the moment. Gary Hart, 1987. When political journalism slid off the rails, or you might argue, when it finally got serious.

[Matt Bai]

Well, you know, just flashback a minute because I think the Context is important.

[Tom Fiedler]

1984.

[Matt Bai]

Hart kind of comes from nowhere.

[Brooke Gladstone]

It's a whole new ballgame in the race for the Democratic presidential nomination.

[Matt Bai]

Runs for president, storms New Hampshire Senator.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Gary Hart is on his way to a clear cut victory over Walter Mondale.

[Matt Bai]

Beats Mondale there and becomes a political.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Celebrity this country cannot stand. Four more years of Reaganomics for the rich. Gary Hart. Gary Hart, the senator from Colorado. GARY Hart, I'm a Democrat and proud of it.

[Robert Krulwich]

Hart was this tall, good looking Democrat.

[Matt Bai]

He's got great wavy hair.

[Leslie Stahl]

I mean, dashing, handsome, charismatic and young.

[Tom Fiedler]

This is Leslie Stahl, CBS. She's covered politics for 40 years, now works for 60 Minutes.

[Leslie Stahl]

He was cool and smart. Women liked him too.

[Matt Bai]

He's an anti orthodox Democrat, very liberal, anti nukes. He is sort of the Bill Clinton before Bill Clinton.

[Tom Fiedler]

He doesn't get the Democratic nomination in 1984, Walter Mondale does by a nose. But when Mondale gets crushed by Ronald.

[Matt Bai]

Reagan, Hart is immediately presumed to be the next nominee of the party at a time when these things were more obvious.

[Robert Krulwich]

So Fast forward to 1987.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Like it or not, Campaign 88 is underway. And the leading contender, frontrunner Gary Hart in New Hampshire.

[Matt Bai]

He's winning.

[Brooke Gladstone]

On to the White House.

[Matt Bai]

He's running double digits higher than any Democrat.

[Tom Fiedler]

And he's projected to beat George Bush, the Republican front runner, the next President.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Of the United States, Gary Hart.

[Kevin Sweeney]

It felt like, look, this is a guy who is changing politics, who is unafraid to speak the truth, who is willing to be really clear about what he wants to do.

[Robert Krulwich]

That's Kevin Sweeney. He was Hart's press secretary in 1987. He joined the campaign just a few years out of college.

[Kevin Sweeney]

23. I'm idealistic. The first time we really met, he. I was wearing a necktie with pictures of Lincoln and Washington on it. And Hart said, that's the ugliest necktie I've ever seen in my life. Said my mother made it. And he said, I apologize.

[Tom Fiedler]

Well, that's a good beginning.

[Kevin Sweeney]

Yeah, I knew pretty early I wanted to work for Hart.

[Tom Fiedler]

Do you remember why?

[Kevin Sweeney]

He was really liberal in social issues at the time. Unafraid to be specific or take a stand.

[Robert Krulwich]

He said Hart placed an extraordinary amount of emphasis on not just winning the campaign, but what would they do when they got in office.

[Kevin Sweeney]

He commanded that attitude.

[Robert Krulwich]

So they wrote out all these position papers on foreign policy, energy, international trade, the budget, even. What would his relationship with Gorbachev be?

[Kevin Sweeney]

There was something about heart and something about what happened on the campaign where it did feel like the kind of campaign that I haven't seen since.

[Tom Fiedler]

And when does the subject of what goes on below the belt come up, if at all?

[Kevin Sweeney]

Um, well, there were rumors, definitely rumors.

[Matt Bai]

By this time, there are a lot of whispers about his personal life and a lot of speculation. He's been married to his college sweetheart Lee for a very long time. They've been separated twice. The long separations and during those separations he's dated openly in Washington. So it's a well known fact of life in Washington where he is a central figure and has a lot of friends in the press corps that he's dated, that he's dated people for extended periods of time, that he and his wife have a troubled marriage together and not together. He stayed on Bob Woodward's couch for a little while when she kicked him out at one point. Nobody wrote about that.

[Robert Krulwich]

The reason they didn't write about it was because of a very old, very well established convention.

[Matt Bai]

I mean, look, go back to the 20th century. Franklin Roosevelt, Lyndon Johnson, Dwight Eisenhower, you know, heroes, towering figures, their personal lives simply were not in play.

[Robert Krulwich]

Take for example, jfk. Leslie Stahl says that when the press.

[Leslie Stahl]

Was covering him, vast numbers of reporters knew that John Kennedy was cheating on his wife. That was no secret. But we wouldn't have dreamed of printing that. Even if the whispers were loud enough to spread around the country, it just wasn't done.

[Tom Fiedler]

Is the thought, hey, like, nobody does that, so, like, you know, forget about it, or hey, that has nothing to do with statecraft.

[Matt Bai]

I think the feeling was that so what, you know, we all get to have a zone of privacy.

[Robert Krulwich]

And the assumption was that what happened in your private zone behind closed doors.

[Leslie Stahl]

Had nothing to do with whether you were going to be a good president or not. I mean, there are certain ethics and certain standards.

[Matt Bai]

I guess this is the world that Hart still thinks he's living in, that as long as it doesn't burst into public view, it won't be a story.

[Robert Krulwich]

But Matt B. Says that world was actually changing because of a political earthquake that had happened just over a decade before.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Talking about the Watergate break in, burglarizing and bugging Democratic headquarters in Washington.

[Matt Bai]

That is the big first knocked out brick in that wall.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Five people have been arrested and charged with breaking into the headquarters of the.

[Robert Krulwich]

Democratic National Committee, you know, arguably the biggest scandal in White House history. You had Nixon tapping phone lines, compiling enemy lists. And for the reporters covering Nixon, it.

[Matt Bai]

Really is an embarrassment. You had an entire White House press corps, political press corps, campaign press corps, who had followed this man, Richard Nixon, for decades and somehow either missed the fact or failed to report the fact that he had some significant psychological issues and was paranoid and could be corrupted.

[Leslie Stahl]

I think there was a sense that we let the public down.

[Tom Fiedler]

Leslie Stahl remembers it this way.

[Leslie Stahl]

The regular White House press reporters, they should have been digging, chipping away, chipping away, chipping away. They should have been looking behind the curtain and so Right after Watergate, reporters became tougher, saying, okay, we have to.

[Tom Fiedler]

Be skeptical about everything, and in particular, the character issue.

[Matt Bai]

Meaning suddenly your makeup, your personal behavior, who you are in your private moments, matters a whole hell of a lot for the kind of president you can be and whether or not we can trust you as a public leader.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Hart's character is the subject tonight of our Weekend Journal. When Americans choose presidents, personal character traits are important in this day and age. Candidates personal lives are getting a great deal of scrutiny.

[Kevin Sweeney]

I remember there was a bit of a shift in the kinds of reporters who were covering national politics. They had a different orientation, and they were really interested in the character question.

[Tom Fiedler]

That's Kevin Sweeney again. He says he was initially frustrated by the reporters strange obsession with things that were not really issues. Important issues in the campaign, like age.

[Kevin Sweeney]

There was some confusion about Hart's age. The fact that he changed the family name, his signature changed at a certain point in his life.

[Tom Fiedler]

He says, when those stories initially popped.

[Kevin Sweeney]

Up, I thought it was a false set of issues. I didn't really take it seriously.

[Robert Krulwich]

But then when it came to the rumors of, quote, womanizing or marital infidelity, he felt like he needed to talk to Gary Hart.

[Kevin Sweeney]

I did say, if anything is happening, it needs to stop. I mean, this can't. Whatever it is. And he said, you know, nothing is happening. And he shot back and said, they have no right to cover that. That's ridiculous. It's not an issue that. You know, why is that an issue? That's not their job. And I kept pushing back, saying, I don't actually care what their job is. I don't care what you think their job is. This is the new context that exists now. I don't know why or how, but the rules have changed. The rules have changed.

[Jamie York]

So, you know, it was.

[Tom Fiedler]

This brings us back to Tom Fiedler of the Miami Herald. He was covering Gary Hart, going with him to all the stops in Iowa, New Hampshire, and so forth.

[Jamie York]

And it seemed like at every stop along the way, someone, some reporter would raise her or his hand and would say, what about the rumors of his womanizing?

[Robert Krulwich]

Dumb says that he would see reporters asking all these questions, and he was a little bit troubled.

[Tom Fiedler]

So on April 27, 1987, he wrote a column asking the question, is it.

[Jamie York]

Ethical for journalists to be even raising this kind of a question? And I really came down to the conclusion that unless the media, unless the reporters involved had actual proof that this was a problem, that he was a womanizer, we just shouldn't be Printing that.

[Tom Fiedler]

Column runs on a Monday morning.

[Jamie York]

That night he gets the call. The voice on the other side says, Gary Hart is having an affair with one of my best friends.

[Robert Krulwich]

He was dumbstruck, as we know.

[Jamie York]

I told her that my position had to be that I couldn't believe what she had to say unless there was proof. And finally she said, my friend is going to fly up to Washington next weekend, and she's going to spend the weekend with Senator Hart. She said, so all you have to do is buy a ticket on that plane.

[Tom Fiedler]

And I thought, well, would that be ethically okay?

[Jamie York]

What is in bounds and what is out of bounds?

[Robert Krulwich]

I mean, character was this new obsession of political journalism. But according to Matt Bayh, no one had taken that character question into a candidate's bedroom. That was new.

[Tom Fiedler]

But Fiedler thought, well, no, no, no.

[Jamie York]

This, this is inbounds because Gary Hart was publicly denying had been carrying on affairs with anyone in particular.

[Robert Krulwich]

Now, to be clear, oftentimes when Gary Hart was asked about these rumors of an affair, he was never asked directly just about the rumors. He'd say something like this, it's no one else's business.

[Jamie York]

Now, why is it not anyone else's business?

[Brooke Gladstone]

Because it isn't. No, but it hasn't been the business of the American public for 200 years and it isn't today.

[Robert Krulwich]

He'd say something like that. But Fiedler says a couple times when he's asked, he did say something that.

[Jamie York]

Amounted to a no, such as if there was any truth to these allegations, it would have come out long before the kinds of answers that were non. Denials, denials, another phrase that came out of Watergate. So my view at that point was if in fact there was proof that he was carrying on an affair privately while publicly insisting that there really was no basis to this, then that was.

[Tom Fiedler]

A relevant issue, relevant to his performance as future president.

[Jamie York]

Yes, it was a question of integrity. So we thought the only way that we are going to find out if what the caller told us is true is we've got to catch him.

[Robert Krulwich]

That's coming up next.

[Latif Nasser]

Radiolab is supported by Made in Cookware. As a Radiolab listener, you know, we like to nerd out and explore things like how seagulls from the 1970s shook up our understanding of what's natural in all of us animals and how far the moon actually is. The usual Made in Cookware is into exploration, too, creating products that help us answer questions like have you wanted to cook lobster but balked because the process seemed too intimidating. When it comes to picking the right ones and what tools you need to dig in, it can seem like a lot. Armed with Made In's Stainless Clad stock pot and their how to Cook Lobster blog post, there's no need to be afraid. With their professional grade stainless clad carbon steel nonstick and enameled cast iron cookware collections, Made in lets you focus on memorable meals. Cook like a pro with Made In. For full details, visit madeincookware.com that's M A D E I N cookware.com hey, Jon Favreau here. There's no shortage of political takes in 2024, but quantity doesn't cut it. We need a better conversation about the latest, biggest election of our lives. On Pod Save America, me and my co host cut through the noise to help you figure out what matters and how you can help. Every Tuesday, Wednesday and Friday, Pod Save America is breaking down the political news that makes us laugh, cry and snap our laptops in half. Expensive year for laptops. Make sure to check out new episodes of Pod Save America on your favorite podcast platform or our YouTube channel now.

[Robert Krulwich]

Hey, I'm Jad Abumrad.

[Tom Fiedler]

I'm Robert Krulwich.

[Robert Krulwich]

This is Radiolab. Getting back to the story, reporter Tom Fiedler gets a tip saying that candidate Gary Hart is having an affair. And he thinks to himself, this is in bounds if it's true, therefore we've.

[Jamie York]

Got to catch him.

[Tom Fiedler]

So his editor tells a colleague of his, Jim McGee, to go to the.

[Jamie York]

Airport, telling him, this is what you're going to do. You're going to look for a woman who looks like a model.

[Robert Krulwich]

That's how the woman on the phone described her friend.

[Jamie York]

She's described as a model, blonde, in her mid-20s and call me back if you see it.

[Robert Krulwich]

So this guy Jim races to the.

[Jamie York]

Airport, spots this attractive young woman, fits the description, of course we later knew was Donna Rice.

[Tom Fiedler]

So he boards the plane, they land in D.C. he follows her out of the airport into a cab.

[Jamie York]

He runs to another cab, jumps in it, and he says, follow that cab.

[Robert Krulwich]

Just like in the movies, which they do.

[Tom Fiedler]

He loses her for a while, but then eventually he gets to the house where he thinks Hart and this lady should be.

[Jamie York]

And he's not there. More than a few when the front door opens and out comes the young woman on the arm of a very handsome man.

[Robert Krulwich]

One small problem.

[Jamie York]

Jim had never met Gary Hart.

[Robert Krulwich]

He had no idea what Gary Hart.

[Jamie York]

Looked like, he said. Later he said, I really couldn't pick Gary Hart out of a lineup that's when I really thought, we have got to go to Washington.

[Matt Bai]

And that's what they do.

[Tom Fiedler]

The Herald, Matt Bai again.

[Matt Bai]

They send a team of reporters, investigative reporters, and Fiedler and a photographer to Washington.

[Latif Nasser]

We.

[Jamie York]

We arrived Saturday morning.

[Matt Bai]

They stake out his townhouse.

[Jamie York]

You know, I'm thinking, my gosh, somebody will surely notice that there are four or five of us. Lurking is probably the right word.

[Matt Bai]

It's may. And one guy's in a parka to disguise himself. And Fiedler, who the candidate knows is in a jogging suit and he's pretending to jog around the street all day long.

[Jamie York]

I would change clothes a little bit. Occasionally I would run without the jacket. Other times I would just be wearing a T shirt and shorts.

[Tom Fiedler]

He'd run around and around and around.

[Matt Bai]

It's not how the CIA would do it, but it's about what you'd expect from a newspaper.

[Jamie York]

Our quote unquote stakeout went on all day into Saturday night. And it got dark. And then front door opens, out comes this man, and out comes the blonde woman.

[Matt Bai]

Hart walks out with Donna Rice, sort of arm in arm.

[Jamie York]

He quickly realizes something is wrong.

[Matt Bai]

He kind of makes the surveillance. They see him. He sees them. He turns her back around.

[Jamie York]

They go inside, go back inside the townhouse.

[Matt Bai]

He sends her away through the back door.

[Jamie York]

And then he comes back out of the townhouse, hops in his car and starts to drive off. So our photographer starts to chase Senator Hart's car.

[Matt Bai]

He drives a couple blocks up streets.

[Jamie York]

Down streets, back and forth.

[Matt Bai]

He gets out of the car, walks through a park.

[Tom Fiedler]

Chase continues on foot.

[Matt Bai]

He knows they're following him, and they know he knows they're following him.

[Tom Fiedler]

Hart ducks around the corner. They lose him for a second. Then they're running to catch up.

[Matt Bai]

And then they turn a corner in an alley, and there's Hart. There is the presumed nominee of the Democratic Party, the most important Democratic politician in the country. And they're confronting each other.

[Robert Krulwich]

And for a moment, standing in the alleyway behind Hart's townhouse, they just stare at each other because there is no script for this moment.

[Jamie York]

Ultimately, he asked, well, who are you? Well, we're from the Miami Herald. And he didn't really say anything. So I told him that we wanted to know why he was meeting with this woman in his townhouse, a woman who, at that point, we knew had spent the night with him.

[Matt Bai]

He says, in myriad ways, myriad times.

[Jamie York]

I'm not going to tell you who that woman was. This is private. This isn't public.

[Matt Bai]

But he says there's no affair, which he would maintain forever after.

[Jamie York]

And ultimately he said, I've said enough. And he turned and walked inside and slammed the door. We did tell him, though. He said, we're going to write this story unless you give us a reason that explains as to why what we are seeing and what we're concluding is wrong. And he never did that. So we kind of look at ourselves and said, well, now what do we do? Ultimately, the call was, we have the proof we feel we needed. We know that publicly he was saying these things, and we now know that privately he was engaged in this.

[Tom Fiedler]

So they ran back to the hotel room. Fiedler frantically typed out the story.

[Jamie York]

Gary Hart, whose presidential campaign has been dogged by rumors of womanizing, comma, spent Friday night and much of Saturday with a woman who came from Miami to meet him. I finally went back and I probably slept for three or four hours.

[Tom Fiedler]

Okay, so you're gonna do the story. The only thing that gives me pause is if under this standard, you'd lose Jack Kennedy, certainly you'd lose Woodrow Wilson. I think so. You'd lose a lot of people you might not want to lose, but, you.

[Jamie York]

Know, you've leaped to the conclusion that the public would banish a person for that. And I don't go there. So are you worried about how it's going to land?

[Robert Krulwich]

That's our producer, Jamie York.

[Jamie York]

Terrified. I was terrified.

[Tom Fiedler]

And the next morning, an ABC News reads.

[Matt Bai]

The political world explodes.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Democratic presidential hopeful Gary Hart. Gary Hart. Gary Hart.

[Jamie York]

It truly became a firestorm.

[Brooke Gladstone]

The Miami Herald reports today that Hart, quote, spent Friday night and most of Saturday. The Miami Herald reports that Hart and a Miami woman spent Friday night alone together in his Washington townhouse with a young woman.

[Matt Bai]

That story begins ricocheting around the country on cnn.

[Brooke Gladstone]

So by Sunday, confronted by Herald reporters last night, Hart denied any impropriety. Hart denied any impropriety.

[Matt Bai]

It's very apparent that not only his heart in trouble, but the entire culture of media around politics has changed in some very dramatic way.

[Tom Fiedler]

And when you think about the mindset of the television people, the radio people, the newspaper people, is there any self doubt there? Is there people saying, is this really a question of his ability to conduct matters of state? Is that question being asked?

[Matt Bai]

There's a tremendous amount of self doubt.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Not everyone agrees that such intense public public scrutiny is necessary.

[Matt Bai]

There was widespread feeling the Miami Herald.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Was put on the defensive.

[Matt Bai]

That Fiedler and his colleagues had done was wrong.

[Leslie Stahl]

You know, that's out of bounds.

[Brooke Gladstone]

What business is it of the press.

[Matt Bai]

You staked out a guy in his home.

[Leslie Stahl]

What are they up to, sneaking around in the bushes and all that?

[Brooke Gladstone]

A lot of reporters don't think it's relevant. And one reason is this. Nobody knows where this is going to lead.

[Jamie York]

Has this set a precedent?

[Brooke Gladstone]

Should reporters be staking out George Bush's house, Bruce Babbitt's house, Joe Biden's house?

[Matt Bai]

But then in the same breath, there's generally this sense of, but, you know.

[Brooke Gladstone]

All he had to do basically was stay clean.

[Matt Bai]

What was he thinking?

[Brooke Gladstone]

Hart is to blame. It's Gary Hart's fault.

[Matt Bai]

And didn't he understand that things had changed? And doesn't the public maybe have a right to know?

[Brooke Gladstone]

And so the newspaper that began the controversy is not backing down. This was not character assassination. This was character suicide. He did it. We didn't. Even as the debate heats up over the ethics of its coverage of Gary Hart.

[Matt Bai]

So there was a real conflict. All the various echelon of media respond to this differently. The New York Times refuses to touch it originally. The Washington Post is deeply conflicted.

[Tom Fiedler]

And as for the public, in an.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Unscientific Herald telephone poll, 63% of the callers said they thought the paper was making too much of a fuss over Gary Hart.

[Matt Bai]

I mean, the polling shows that people think the media overstepped. He still polling very strongly. He's winning in the public mind, according to Leslie Stahl.

[Tom Fiedler]

Most people seem to be willing to compartmentalize.

[Leslie Stahl]

Most people can split off, how's he going to be as president? And you know, is he cheating on his wife?

[Matt Bai]

It was not clear that the tide was going to take Hart out at all.

[Tom Fiedler]

So Hart and his team try to get ahead of the story. They schedule a press conference in New Hampshire. And on the flight over, Kevin Sweeney, his press secretary, preps him.

[Kevin Sweeney]

I remember asking Hart a question, something like, have you ever been unfaithful to your wife? And he shot back at me with anger. He said, I don't have to answer that question. That's a question that I can answer to God, to my wife, but it's not a question that I need to answer. In politics, that's a dangerous question to be asking. We don't want to go there. And I just said, that's a great answer. Just hold that anger. That's an appropriate response.

[Jamie York]

Senator Hart.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Senator Hart, please.

[Kevin Sweeney]

Senator Hart. We get to the press conference.

[Robert Krulwich]

Hart and Sweeney walk into this colonial style room at Dartmouth College.

[Kevin Sweeney]

There are. There are lights everywhere. The room is filled, sweaty.

[Matt Bai]

It's Hot. There's more media than anyone's ever seen packed in.

[Kevin Sweeney]

It's a really intense environment.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Senator Hart. Senator Hart, please. Senator Hart.

[Matt Bai]

Hart has very little buffer, and he's handling the questions.

[Brooke Gladstone]

How are you going to convince him that you're not going to make this.

[Jamie York]

Kind of mistake in judgment about personal behavior?

[Matt Bai]

Again, really pretty brilliantly.

[Brooke Gladstone]

I won't tell him. I'll. I'll demonstrate it. As time goes on, people are going to want to know about your judgment and your character on the issues that affect their lives and their families and their nation. That's what this campaign is going to be about.

[Matt Bai]

He's kind of firing on all cylinders.

[Kevin Sweeney]

And Hart goes through, you know, 30 minutes, 40 minutes of questions. And then you raised.

[Brooke Gladstone]

In your remarks yesterday, you raised the issue of morality, and you raised the issue of truthfulness.

[Matt Bai]

At some point, he calls on a young reporter named Paul Taylor.

[Brooke Gladstone]

I'm very specific, and I have a series of questions about it.

[Matt Bai]

And Paul Taylor walks him through a series of questions.

[Brooke Gladstone]

You said you did nothing immoral. Did you mean that you had no sexual relationship with Donna Rice last weekend or any other time you were with him? That is correct. Do you believe that adultery is immoral?

[Jamie York]

Yes.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Have you ever committed adultery?

[Matt Bai]

He says, senator, have you ever committed adultery?

[Robert Krulwich]

Senator Hart looked out at the sea of reporters.

[Matt Bai]

No politician had ever publicly been asked that broad, direct a question about his personal behavior. It really just. It shocked the room.

[Robert Krulwich]

We don't know what Gary Hart was thinking in that moment. He did not want to be interviewed on tape. But it's clear that if he said yes or no to that broad of a question, then his entire married life, because have you ever committed adultery? That word ever, his entire married life would suddenly be in play. And as far as we know, no other person in his situation in history had ever been asked to drag that much of themselves into the limelight. And on his face, you can see.

[Matt Bai]

That he knows that this is never going to end. I mean, he knew how many women he'd seen over the years. He could envision them all being paraded through the papers. He could tell already that there was all this new sort of tabloid press and that the political press was following along, that he was never going to be able to talk about his agenda. And Hart stumbled around for a minute, and ultimately he says.

[Kevin Sweeney]

I don't have to answer that question.

[Brooke Gladstone]

That's right.

[Kevin Sweeney]

When I heard that response, I felt it. I felt it. The tone was such that it felt like defeat. It felt like he is exhausted and he can't take this. And I was offended. I really, in that moment, thought, this is just wrong. This has nothing to do with what is necessary to run this country. And I just thought, this is not. We're not going to survive.

[Matt Bai]

And that moment effectively does him in.

[Brooke Gladstone]

I have told you the facts. If you don't believe me, there's nothing I can do about it. Gary Hart is finished as a presidential candidate. Gary Hart's formal campaign is only three weeks old. There was simply no putting the genie back in the bottle. His appearances yesterday were mob. Z campaign has been hammered to its knees, asking the same questions again and again. Today, after what may be remembered as the most disastrous week any presidential candidates endured in years, Heart told an aide, let's go home.

[Robert Krulwich]

A couple weeks later, that famous image of Gary Hart and Donna Rice comes out in the National Enquirer. And that was that.

[Tom Fiedler]

Yeah, that's that for people my age like that. That image of Donna Rice sitting in his lap, and he's got this shirt on that says monkey business. That's. That's the thing you remember?

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah. Now, according to Matt Bai, you can look at this whole story, and particularly Tom Fiedler taking that call and Paul Taylor asking that question as this moment when all of these forces way outside of Gary Hart's control come together not just to sink his campaign, but to change political journalism profoundly. But as with all cultural shifts, there's more than one way to look at this. So just for a gut check, we put the whole story.

[Cokie Roberts]

We're talking about Tom Fiedler.

[Tom Fiedler]

Yeah, Tom.

[Cokie Roberts]

Yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

In front of this lady, can we.

[Matt Bai]

Have you introduce yourself?

[Cokie Roberts]

I'm Cokie Roberts.

[Tom Fiedler]

But no, who you are like part two.

[Cokie Roberts]

I have six grandchildren.

[Tom Fiedler]

No, no, no, no, no. Something in pr.

[Cokie Roberts]

I'm a political commentator and author.

[Tom Fiedler]

Okay. Cokie Roberts believes that, yeah, reporters were interested in character more after Watergate. But it wasn't just that.

[Cokie Roberts]

The thing that's important to keep in mind here is that there were many more women covering candidates at that point than there had been before. There were women on the bus. And in the case of Gary Hart, several of those women had had personal encounters with him. There were times when you'd be in a room where he had hit on every woman in the room. So this was not somebody that women who were covering campaigns were ignorant of. And the other thing to keep in mind, Robert, is that the whole women's movement did talk quite a bit about the personal is political. And because the way women were treated was something that we thought and I continue to think is a good gauge of character. And there was something of a sense that he treated women like Kleenex. So we were expanding the universe of what was a major character flaw.

[Latif Nasser]

So then are you kind of. Are you kind of rooting Fiedler on?

[Cokie Roberts]

Oh, absolutely. Finally somebody's written about it, and thank God it's a guy.

[Latif Nasser]

But as much as you were cheering.

[Matt Bai]

Them on, was there any concern that.

[Latif Nasser]

That was changing the rules of journalism?

[Cokie Roberts]

No.

[Kevin Sweeney]

Why?

[Cokie Roberts]

Because the rules of journalism were constantly changing, as they should.

[Robert Krulwich]

And according to Cokie Roberts, this was less about journalism changing than about journalism catching up with the ethics of the time.

[Cokie Roberts]

Look, we elect our presidents based on who they are, not on what policies they stand for. It's different from any other office. The voters need to know as much as they can humanly know about that person.

[Latif Nasser]

So is there a line for you?

[Jamie York]

Is there a place you won't go.

[Matt Bai]

In taking the full measure of a.

[Cokie Roberts]

Candidate not for president that I can think of.

[Kevin Sweeney]

There's nothing you wouldn't touch?

[Cokie Roberts]

No. I mean, I'd have to know that it was true, sure. But no, no, I love that.

[Robert Krulwich]

Leslie Stahl had a slightly different take.

[Leslie Stahl]

She's fabulous. Cokie Roberts. I didn't go there. That's interesting. I just didn't want to. I just didn't want to ask about it. I didn't want to go there.

[Latif Nasser]

Excuse me.

[Leslie Stahl]

I'm telling you this, even though I covered Watergate and would have asked any number of questions about character, you know, it's open season, fellas. The public needs to know this. But, you know, sex is really a hard place for me to pry, so I agree with it. But I also have my own opinion that there's propriety and I'm old fashioned, I guess, am I? I don't know.

[Brooke Gladstone]

I had intended, quite frankly, to come down here this morning and read a short, carefully worded political statement.

[Tom Fiedler]

This is Gary Hart's statement a few.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Days after that press conference saying that I was withdrawing from the race and then quietly disappear from the stage. And then after, frankly, tossing and turning all night, I said to myself, hell, no, I'm not going to do that, because it's not my style and because I'm a proud man and I'm proud of what I've accomplished in public life. Some things may be interesting, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're important. We're all going to have to seriously question a system for selecting our national leaders that reduces the press of this nation to hunters and presidential candidates to being hunted. Politics in this country, take it from me, is on the verge of becoming another form of athletic competition or sporting match. We all better do something to make this system work or we're all going to be soon rephrasing Jefferson to say I tremble for my country when I think we may in fact get the kind of leaders we deserve.

[Tom Fiedler]

Now, we did reach out to Mr. Hart for a comment explaining to him the story we were doing. And he wrote back this thank you for your letter and the invitation to participate in your current story. Though I did not become president, my life continues to be extraordinarily rich. Perhaps someday someone will tell that story. But for now, I have no interest in revisiting what many consider a turning point for the nation and a few an injustice. I do believe that the full and accurate story of that event remains to be told. Signed, Gary Hart.

[Latif Nasser]

It does feel, like I said at the top, like it sort of feels like the episode is about this moment, but it also doesn't at all like it.

[Jad Abumrad]

Right. I think you're absolutely right. It does. You know, there are certain similarities, but there's also a tremendous difference.

[Latif Nasser]

Once again, Brooke Gladstone, host of the WNYC show on the media.

[Jad Abumrad]

So you have Trump being accused dozens of times of sexual assault or sexual harassment, even convicted, at least in a civil trial, but it doesn't seem to matter.

[Latif Nasser]

That is staggering.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

Why does that not matter way more?

[Jad Abumrad]

Well, you see, this is what makes this time different. This is a time where a simple lie will be embraced if it serves a voter's purposes.

[Latif Nasser]

Brooks says. Of course, part of what's going on here is that the electorate has become much more rigidly partisan, even tribal. But it also has to do with our relationship with the media, where we get our news, who we trust, who we don't trust.

[Jad Abumrad]

This is a profoundly cynical time. I don't think I have ever lived through a political era that has been as cynical as this.

[Latif Nasser]

And Brooke says she thinks this has to do, at least in part, with an evolution since the time of Gary Hart, in the way reporters and media outlets think about what's worth covering or not.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yes, precisely. Precisely. And I have an anecdote you might find interesting.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay, let's hear it.

[Jad Abumrad]

It was in the late 80s. I was the editor of All Things Considered at the time. And George H.W. bush was in some sort of a car thing. There was a threat, a loud bang. There was a woman with him in the car who got hustled away. Her name was Jennifer Fitzgerald, and she had had. It was a 17 year affair with George H.W.

[Latif Nasser]

Bush? No, I never heard of that.

[Jad Abumrad]

This was an open secret, really. It's believed they began their relationship in 74. She was his secretary when he was chief of the U.S. liaison Office to China. She was his executive assistant when he was the CIA director.

[Latif Nasser]

Have I never heard of her? Wow.

[Kevin Sweeney]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

Vice president. President. But she denied the affair. We talked about whether this was the time to sort of bring this story out into the open.

[Latif Nasser]

At the time. At the time, he was. What was his. He was.

[Jad Abumrad]

He was president.

[Latif Nasser]

He was president.

[Jad Abumrad]

He was president.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

But, you know, we ended up not doing it. We ended up not doing George H.W. bush's affair and it never was done.

[Latif Nasser]

Like, why did you decide not to?

[Jad Abumrad]

Well, in the late 80s, in that editorial office, we decided that it really wouldn't inform. Inform the public of anything related to George H.W. bush's governance of the country.

[Latif Nasser]

And Brooke says this is the important thing to pay attention to. Not so much whether you're intruding on someone's privacy or not, but rather what.

[Jad Abumrad]

Better informs the people and what is a distraction.

[Latif Nasser]

Because in the years that followed, from Bill Clinton's sex scandals to George W. Bush, whether he used cocaine in the past to Barack Obama's tan suit, the press constantly aired on the side of coverage, more information, but also with it, maybe more distraction. The aperture on what was worth talking about kept opening wider and wider until Trump came on the scene and the press pretty much started covering everything and anything about him.

[Jad Abumrad]

I mean, during Trump's first campaign against Hillary Clinton, CNN would focus on an empty podium because Trump would arrive late all the time rather than simply shift to the speech that at that very moment, Hillary Clinton was given elsewhere.

[Latif Nasser]

And of course, after he was elected president, he continued to offer the press a deluge of outrageous statements, exaggerations and lies.

[Jad Abumrad]

Right before the first inauguration, he said, my God, all the fancy dresses in Washington, D.C. have all been sold out because of the upcoming inauguration. It's gonna be such a big thing. And the Washington Post sent to go to the stores to find out. So did they sell out? And of course, no, they did not. But was it worth it?

[Latif Nasser]

There was just so much coverage of all these little things that even when something big and important was happening, it just sort of got lost in the noise.

[Jad Abumrad]

And, you know, obviously Donald J. Trump is a master of distraction and he doesn't really care how people think about it.

[Latif Nasser]

And the media just keeps falling for these distractions. This is actually something that Brooke on Her show on the media has reported about, you know, repeatedly, including just this past spring in an episode called how not to Cover the Trump Trials.

[Brooke Gladstone]

You're looking at live pictures in New York City of Donald Trump's motorcade.

[Latif Nasser]

It's about a 20 minute drive between.

[Jad Abumrad]

Trump Tower and coverage around Trump's indictment found the media stumbling back into some of its own worst habits, heading down.

[Matt Bai]

The FDR to the Manhattan courthouse on Chamber Street.

[Jad Abumrad]

Arriving at this intersection of American history with the media that vowed to never again waste precious air time on Trump related minutia. Forgot Trump leaving Trump Tower on Fifth Avenue.

[Latif Nasser]

They're now making their way across town.

[Jad Abumrad]

As we've heard now since 2016, at least the ability to flood the zone with outrages.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

Causes a kind of emotional, intellectual and maybe even ethical paralysis.

[Latif Nasser]

Do you feel like, is it just going to get more and more like this? More sensational, more distraction, can it go back? Or is it just sort of a one way ratchet?

[Jad Abumrad]

Well, I'm not the best prognosticator, but I would say there's a symbiotic relationship between Americans and their leaders and Americans and their media. So in a sense, we're seen as consumers, not as citizens. We are served what we will buy and what we find tasty.

[Latif Nasser]

Tabloid coverage will give you tabloid presidents, I guess, is the vision there.

[Jad Abumrad]

But if our media and our leadership offer us something else, we can be better. So the reporters may take the cue and decide that this isn't worth it or they'll decide that this is going to be very cliquey and people on the side that you're on are going to love it. It's going to make them feel good and it will just be in the process of tossing out red meat. Hard to say.

[Latif Nasser]

Thank you so much to Brooke Gladstone. And honestly, when I'm trying to avoid getting stuck in the swirl of media distractions, the circus of it all on the media is the place I go. They put things in perspective. They curate the news in a way that is clarifying and not muddying. Yeah. Go check them out wherever you get your podcasts on the media. The original story we did on Gary Hart drew so much from Matt Bai's book. It's called all the Truth is Out. You can of course find a link to the book on our website, Radiolab.org that story, the original story was produced by Simon Adler with help from Jamie York. And the update you just heard with Brooke was produced by Rebecca Lacks. I'm Latif Nasser. This has been Radiolab and we will catch you next week. Hi, I'm David and I'm from Baltimore, Maryland. Radiolab was created by Jad Abumrad and is edited by Soren Wheeler. Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser are our co hosts. Dylan Keefe is our Director of Sound Design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Bressler, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Maria Paz Gutierrez, Sindhu Nyanam Sambandan, Matt Kielty, Annie McEwen, Rebecca Lacks, Alex Neeson, Sara Khari, Sarah Sandbach, Ariane Wack, Pat Walters, and Molly Webster. Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, and Natalie Middleton. Hi, this is Ellie from Cleveland, Ohio. Leadership support for Radiolab science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation Science Sandbox Assignments Foundation Initiative and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation. NYCNow delivers the most up to date local news from WNYC and Gothamist every morning, midday and evening with three updates a day.

[Robert Krulwich]

Listeners get breaking news, top headlines and.

[Latif Nasser]

In depth coverage from across New York City by sponsoring programming like NYC Now. You'll reach our community of dedicated listeners with premium messaging and an uncluttered audio experience Experience. Visit sponsorship wnyc. Org to get in touch and find out more.