Is Trump the GOP’s Greatest Asset — or Biggest Liability?

Summary

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Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway & Jessica Tarlov

Episode: Is Trump the GOP’s Greatest Asset — or Biggest Liability?
Date: May 7, 2026
Network: Vox Media Podcast Network

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov, self-described “mad moderates,” dissect Donald Trump’s role as both an enduring strength and profound liability for the Republican Party, with a focus on recent foreign policy crises, the ever-unspooling Epstein controversy, intra-party dynamics, and the weaponization of government. Their conversation strikes a balance of biting satire, personal insights, and sharp political analysis—making sense of the chaos at home and abroad.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Leadership Style: Chaos as a Feature, Not a Bug

[00:56–08:22]

• The hosts highlight the whiplash of Trump’s foreign policy regarding Iran, multinational involvement, and markets.
• Galloway: Ties Trump’s methods to “Roy Cohn… never back down, never apologize, attack, attack, attack” ([00:00]).
• Tarlov: Mocks Trump for using rising markets as a metric of foreign policy success, saying the public “would get a resounding no” if he asked about $200 oil ([01:46]).
• They discuss operational confusion—war “winding down,” named “over,” but new strikes and contradictory announcements every 48 hours.
• Galloway: “Every 48 hours, the rationale changes. Imminent catastrophe, regime collapse, peace talks, more bombings, ceasefire. There’s nothing strategic about this. It feels like plaque buildup, cosplaying. War policy, a serious war policy, has objectives, limits, timelines. This is just adrenaline” ([03:05]).
• Both lambast Congress for ceding power:
  • Galloway: “They should be called the House of Fellatio or the House of Enforcement… revving a car in neutral until the engine dies” ([04:10]).
  • Argues that unpredictability isn’t a virtue in world leaders.

Memorable Quote:

“The administration now governs through permanent escalation. Every contradiction becomes a proof of strength.”
— Scott Galloway ([05:25])

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2. Foreign Policy Fallout: Global Respect and Cynicism

[06:11–08:22]

• Tarlov: “People generally feel like they know what Trump’s going to do. Right? He’s going to threaten some things, he’s going to scale it back, then they’re going to insider trade right before the market opens…” ([06:11])
• Discuss regional chaos: Iran’s Strait of Hormuz regulations; Saudi closing airspace; UAE strikes; confusion among U.S. allies.
• Tarlov: “The entire foundation for why he was a foreign policy genius has gone out the window at this point.”

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3. Markets and the 1%: The Wealth Illusion

[08:22–11:13]

• Galloway repeatedly rails against misleading economic metrics:
  • “1% of Americans own between 80 and 90% of stocks. The NASDAQ and the NYSE… create a head fake around the prosperity or lack thereof and wellbeing of Americans” ([10:35]).
  • “I hate that the media…keep saying, ‘well, you know, if this person has a nice Birkin bag, that must mean they’re really happy and have a good marriage. None of these things are correlated.’” ([10:58])

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4. Crisis Management and the Epstein Scandal

[14:01–23:00]

• Federal judge unseals Epstein note; Trump Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick grilled for contradictory testimony regarding visits to Epstein’s island.
• Tarlov: “There are photos of him with Epstein…he obviously didn’t spend the whole time with his wife and kids and nannies…” ([16:01])
• Both hosts discuss pathological lying and the standard rules of crisis management.
• Galloway: “The rules of traditional crisis management apply to everyone else… acknowledge the problem… take responsibility…overcorrect. It’s so obvious. It’s proven through time, this is the way to go. And yet everyone still makes the same mistake. They deny, they diminish, they don’t take responsibility.” ([18:55])
• Galloway argues that Lutnick is likely to be a fall guy “for what… is a fraction of the depravity weirdness association that his boss has clearly been guilty of” ([21:04]).
• Tarlov: “You try to live by that advice. Do you think Trump would accept that though?...he’s just, like, gonna get fired no matter… it’s even worse to admit it, you know?” ([21:31])

Notable Exchange on Crisis Management:

“You never acknowledge the point. You never back down. That is a fair point.”
— Galloway ([21:51])

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5. The Epstein Suicide Note: Real or Conspiracy Catnip?

[21:51–27:52]

• Galloway and Tarlov analyze Epstein’s note: “It reads as defensive, sarcastic… it reeks of grievance” ([21:51]).
• Galloway (quoting note): “What you want me to do, bust out crying?”
  “It is a treat to be able to choose one’s time to say goodbye.”
• Both express skepticism about the investigation and the circumstances of Epstein’s death.
• Tarlov: “Even like Julie K. Brown… said, yeah, you’re not a conspiracy theorist for saying that Jeffrey Epstein didn’t kill himself.” ([23:00])
• They highlight security lapses—cameras off, guards missing.
• Galloway: “There are so many weird things about his death…this one just doesn’t add up. The security cameras were accidentally turned off…the two security guards were accidentally not there.” ([27:50])

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6. Trump and GOP Party Discipline: Indiana, Loyalty, and Fractures

[28:38–31:06]

• Galloway: “Trump’s grip on the Republican Party looks as strong as ever in Indiana. GOP lawmakers who crossed him on redistricting were punished at the ballot box…”
• Tarlov: Dismisses it as “a little bit like…how the right makes fun of progressives for the participation trophy…your big brag is that Donald Trump was able to get five of seven. And…I should note also one of these seats is a swing state seat. So this might end up being a bad thing long term anyway…” ([29:03])
• Both caution against overstating MAGA’s invincibility.

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7. DOJ Probe into Democratic Power Broker Louise Lucas

[31:06–34:16]

• FBI raids office of VA State Sen. Louise Lucas after her role in redistricting; discussion on timing and politicization.
• Tarlov: “This DOJ is completely politicized… but is important to note that the Biden administration were the ones that did open the probe originally.” ([31:32])
• Galloway: “While a search warrant is not proof of guilt, it does meet a serious threshold. Federal judges do not casually approve raids on senior state legislators.” ([33:10])

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8. Marco Rubio, the Pope, and Republican Identity

[34:16–37:57]

• Rubio’s trip to smooth tensions after Trump attacks Pope Leo, who strongly opposes Trump’s policies.
• Tarlov: “It’ll be really interesting how Rubio threads the needle…balances his own faith…with support for…Trump…it feels a little bit like 2016 Rubio… Who’s more important here? Right. Like Leo or Trump.” ([34:21])
• Galloway: “The Vatican has survived plagues, crusades, centuries of corruption, so my guess is, you know, they’re going to swat away a Florida senator with cable news confidence like a fucking gnat.” ([36:06])
• Rubio described as “the human embodiment of the reply all button.”

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9. Obama, Colbert, and the Hunger for Normalcy

[38:14–42:06]

• Obama’s appearance on “The Late Show”:
  • Warned against politicizing the Justice Department.
  • Urged Democrats: “stop talking like they’re in a college seminar.”
  • Colbert jokingly floats running for president.
• Obama: “Well, you know, the bar has changed…at times, subterranean, so I don’t have to limbo so low… I think that you could significantly better than some folks that we’ve seen.” ([39:08])
• Tarlov: “I’m just happy to see Obama back…I’m not saying everything is perfect…but…he always nails it…” ([39:21])
• Galloway praises Colbert’s intelligence, leadership, and possible suitability for public office.

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10. Obituary & Reflections on Ted Turner

[42:50–45:40]

• Galloway and Tarlov pay tribute: Turner as billionaire, innovator (CNN founder, 24/7 news), America’s Cup winner, philanthropist.
• Galloway: “Very few billionaires… also an elite athlete. He died a few days ago…built CNN from nothing…gave away a billion dollars to the United Nations…” ([42:53])
• Tarlov: Highlights conservation efforts and family philanthropy ([44:57]).

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Memorable Quotes

• Galloway:

  • “Decay starts masquerading as toughness. If you look at history, this is how overstretched powers sound near the end with this kind of maximalist rhetoric.” ([05:45])
  • “Congress should be called the House of Fellatio or the House of Enforcement.” ([04:10])
  • “The NASDAQ and the New York Stock Exchange are a proxy for the wealth of the 1%.” ([10:35])

• Tarlov:

  • “People generally feel like they know what Trump’s going to do. Right? He’s going to threaten some things, he’s going to scale it back, then they’re going to insider trade right before the market opens…” ([06:11])
  • “He claims that when he said I would never be in a room again with Jeffrey Epstein, he. He meant only him and Jeffrey Epstein alone. So it’s cool if other people are there…” ([16:48])

• Obama:

  • “The bar has changed…at times subterranean, so I don’t have to limbo so low. They put it this way, I think that you could significantly better than some folks that we’ve seen.” ([39:08])

• Galloway on Rubio:

  • “He’s like the human embodiment of the reply all button…” ([36:06])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:56 — Trump foreign policy and chaos as performance art
• 08:22 — Reflections on economic indicators, “the head fake” of the markets
• 14:01 — Epstein note unsealed; Lutnick's contradictory testimony
• 21:51 — How to handle crisis management (and Trump’s immunity from it)
• 28:40 — Trump’s purge in Indiana GOP: asset or liability?
• 31:06 — DOJ probe into VA Sen. Lucas; politicization and thresholds
• 34:16 — Rubio’s Vatican trip and party identity crisis
• 38:14 — Obama on Colbert, normalcy, Democrats’ tone
• 42:50 — Ted Turner’s legacy, conservation, and industry revolution

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Tone and Style

• Candid, irreverent, and scathingly witty: Both Galloway and Tarlov deliver sharp criticism and self-aware humor, often using explicit language for emphasis.
• Analytical but accessible: The discussion is high-level but filled with analogies (Soviet Union, late-stage Rome, MMA at the White House), personal anecdotes, and pointed mockery.
• Bipartisan frustration: Both hosts call out excesses and failures on both sides—GOP and Democrats—while holding onto a fundamentally moderate worldview.

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a rapid-fire tour through the chaos of contemporary U.S. politics, with Donald Trump as the polarizing center of gravity. Galloway and Tarlov balance hard-edged criticism with humor, offering listeners not just a critique of personalities and policies but also a consistent call for accountability, reason, and human decency in public life.

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Transcript

[A]

We know he's downplaying it. We know he's lying. Yeah. But what's interesting is that he might take a fall for what seems, obviously, to me to be a fraction of the involvement, intimacy, friendship, and contact that the President had over years and years and years with Jeffrey Epstein. Because Trump can get away with just lying and, and denying everything and take a page out of the playbook of Roy Cohn and, like, never back down, never apologize, attack, attack, attack. Other people think they can get away with the same thing, and they can't. They don't have the Jedi skills of lying, and they don't have the cult worship that Trump has that enables him to pull this type of lying off. And what's just so interesting is he may end up taking the fall for what is, again, a fraction of the depravity weirdness association that his boss has clearly been guilty of. Welcome to Raging Moderates. I'm Scott Galloway.

[B]

And I'm Jessica Tarleth.

[A]

If you haven't already, please make sure to subscribe to our YouTube page to stay up to date. All right, let's get into it. Confusion is defining the moment. Iran says it's reviewing a U.S. proposal while also rejecting it. Trump is threatening escalation. Even his military operations pause, and officials can't seem to agree on whether this conflict is winding down or escalating. Meanwhile, strikes continue, markets are swinging, and countries including China and Pakistan are stepping in. Here's Trump yesterday talking about the conflict. We're up. The stock market's higher now than when we started this war, and I thought oil prices would go to 200, $250. It's at $100 now. And I think you're surprised and I'm surprised, but even if it went to 200, it would have been worth it. I understood that.

[B]

Has he asked anybody else on whether oil going to $200 a barrel would have been worth it? Because I think he would get a resounding no on that one. J.D. vance was out campaigning and told Middle America audience that he knows that the oil prices are high and the economy's tough, but we've got to deal with some foreign policy stuff, which I think is like the number one thing you never say to people as you're heading into a midterm election where the other side is particularly enthused and Middle America is particularly hurting, especially around farming country. So they're saying all the wrong things. In the intro, you said there's confusion. I think confusion is being generous about this. Something that was really under, reflected upon was Marco Rubio did the White House briefing. He was quite charming and, you know, all of the things, but he casually said that Operation Epic Fury was over. Did you know that? Does that mean that the war is over? I don't understand how the Secretary of State says that. It doesn't lead every single newscast. And then the extension question, which is, well, what is going on then if Operation Epic Fury is over?

[A]

Yeah. I think the word to describe the Trump administration's handling of this is sclerotic. There's constant movement with no circulation. Every 48 hours, the rationale changes. Imminent catastrophe, regime collapse, peace talks, more bombings, ceasefire. There's nothing strategic about this. It feels like plaque buildup, cosplaying. War policy, a serious war policy, has objectives, it has limits, it has timelines. This is just adrenaline. Trump turns escalation into performance art. Like, you know, terms like obliterated, complete victory, unconditional surrender. There hasn't been unconditional surrender since 1945. That is no longer a feature of war. And then all these big macho statements are articulated or expectorated, I should say, before anything measurable is achieved. And then you get huge volatility and spikes in the oil market, which it appears. I wouldn't be surprised if we find out all of this. The tapes emerge, or emails saying, I don't give a flying fuck about Iran, I don't give a flying fuck about our troops, or the fact that I've gone back and what I promised I wouldn't do. I have made so much money for me and my friends through insider trading, huge options bets before different announcements. That said, the oil market's spiking or plummeting. Allies have to improvise. They're literally having to call audibles every time they go up to hike the ball to figure out their strategy. They have to look at what Trump has done that morning and call and audible and improvise. Congress is totally fucking useless. There has been a cessation, a leakage, a transfer of power from all branches to the executive branch. And Congress, they are no longer. They really shouldn't be called the House of Representatives. They should be called the House of Fellatio or the House of Enforcement. This is. I mean, I understand the Republicans frustration that finally we control the House and we just don't matter. This is literally like revving a car in neutral until the engine dies. And the administration now governs. They govern through permanent escalation. Every contradiction becomes a proof of strength. The war is ending. More strikes may come Negotiations are working, but negotiations are pointless. He said all of these things in the same 40 hour period with things that just don't, not only don't reinforce each other or on message, but directly contradict and cannibalize each other. And once government confuses unpredictability with strategy, remember the, it was supposed to be a feature, not a bug, that he was unpredictable. No, it's not. That's not what you want from your world leaders. Unpredictability, cosplay strategy or 4D chess. When no one can justify his ridiculous head up his ass statements, decay starts masquerading as toughness. If you look at history, this is how overstretched powers sound near the end with this kind of maximalist rhetoric.

[B]

Well, I would add to that because I, I brought it up on the five about, you know, well, you never know if Trump is going to zig or zag. They have figured out that he's not going to do. I don't know, zig or zag would be the worst one. But all of the really bad stuff that he's threatened, he hasn't carried out, which I think is a good thing. Net, net for civilization. We can't have like 93 billion people know wiped off the face of the planet. But people don't. They're not afraid of him. They're putting him in the conversation with like, you know, crazy dictators, you know, like with North Korea and Russia. And you never know what they're going to do. People generally feel like they know what Trump's going to do. Right? He's going to threaten some things, he's going to scale it back, then they're going to insider trade right before the market opens, usually using Axios as the way to do it. And then it's the rinse and repeat of the next day. So the entire foundation for why he was a foreign policy genius has completely gone out the window at this point and no one is taking him seriously. I, I was kind of astounded to see Iran's new Strait of Hormuz protocol where you actually send an email to the Persian Gulf Strait authority and request a transit form and then they decide who gets through and what it costs for you to be able to do that, which seems like the ultimate worst case scenario if they're going to govern the strait that way. And NBC was reporting that Saudi had closed their skies to us because they were pissed off by Project Freedom being announced on social media and that apparently they were not consulted, at least to the proper degree. I find it Hard to believe that they didn't know at all. But with the amount of cooperation that we have with the kingdom. But like that's a big deal, right? I mean, the UAE is getting fired on and that doesn't take us to the level that the ceasefire has been violated. Which, you know, listening to General Kane say that, I imagine the Qataris are sitting there thinking, I'm sorry, what? Like this doesn't rise to a violation of a ceasefire if your friends who have gone to bat for you and sacrificed for you when we weren't even part of the initial plan are getting fired on.

[A]

Yeah, look, this is late stage Soviet Union before the collapse and that is maximalist rhetoric. Unclear objectives, constant emergency spectacle replacing coherence. Also a weaker analogy, but an apt one is probably late stage Rome. The sclerosis is the following. The system becomes incapable of de escalating because backing down is treated as weakness. Or more or. The worst thing you could say about this administration is that it's feminine, it's not thoughtful, it's not measured, it's not in any way caring or concerning or thinking about something more than just showing how big its dick is and flexing its muscles and WWE and MMA at the White House and all this like performative masculinity that is anything but measured. Or how a power, or how someone who is, or a nation that is as strong as us should be behaving when backing down is treated as weakness, that is. And not only backing down, I don't think, I'm not even sure they should back down at this point. I think there is real logic to continuing the embargo of Iranian ports and going after them economically, I'm actually in favor of that. I see the logic there. But when you treat backing down against any of your perceived enemies, politically or reporters, when it's treated as weakness again, it just keeps. The sclerosis just keeps twitching harder. No one is taking this guy seriously anymore. And let me just say that the markets, the markets have become totally disassociated from the well being of the world and Americans. 1% of Americans own between 80 and 90% of stocks. The NASDAQ and the NYSE, and I've said this before, are the most dangerous metrics ever invented because they create a head fake around the prosperity or lack thereof and wellbeing of Americans. And NASDAQ and the New York Stock Exchange are a proxy for the wealth of the 1%. And you're right, it just hit an all time high. And it is as it relates to the geopolitics, America's long term strength in the world, the prosperity, well being, anxiety, obesity, depression and general well being of Americans has nothing to do with the fucking nasdaq. So this constant referral to the markets, you could do a great job as president and have the markets go down 30%. I hate that the media and the American public keep saying, well, you know, if this person has a nice Birkin bag, that must mean they're really happy and have a good marriage. None of these things are correlated.

[B]

That's why I don't have a Birkin bag.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

Because my marriage is actually good.

[A]

Pretty good.

[B]

Brian, if you're listening, you can have a Birkin and a good marriage. Just throwing it out there.

[A]

It is possible.

[B]

I mean, I don't know.

[A]

So let's bring this back to me. One of the.

[B]

All right, let's do it.

[A]

Let's do it. One of the clips I had go viral on Modern Wisdom with my friend Chris Williams, who I just think the world of, was that I said women have a special relationship with jewelry and cocaine and men are never going to understand it. You just got to give into it. And women weighed in and said, I get the jewelry part, I get the jewelry part. But men will never understand jewelry, I don't think. But anyways, the net of this is, as Mother's Day is coming, it may make no sense to you. Buy jewelry or a Birkin bag and

[B]

we don't need cocaine for Mother's Day at least. Where did the cocaine come into?

[A]

But I gotta be honest with you, the first, when I moved to New York in 2000, I'm gonna get shit for this. And I actually was fortunate. On the rare occasion I actually got a date, I went out several times where women would say to me, do you have a bump? And I didn't even know what a bump was. And maybe I was dating the wrong women.

[B]

Maybe.

[A]

This is the crazy part about New York, I would say when I figure out the meant cocaine, I'm like, no, I've never done cocaine in my life. And I'd break into my story about how in high school, God, we're going a long way from Iran.

[B]

But anyways, nothing's happening in Iran anyway,

[A]

so there you go, it's sclerotic. Same, same in high school, I got kicked in the face playing soccer and I got terrible nosebleeds for the next 10 years. So I thought cocaine's just probably not a good idea for me. So I've never done cocaine. And I would say, no, I don't do cocaine. And more often than not, the woman would say, okay, wait here. And would wander off into the great unknown of a club or a bar, wherever we were, and come back and

[B]

have found her cocaine.

[A]

Yeah. And have found someone to give her cocaine. And I thought, how? What are the odds I could get up right now and within five minutes find some dude to do lines with me in the bathroom or wherever they were doing it. Anyways, New York, everyone.

[B]

New York of a certain time. I feel like now you think it's changed.

[A]

Now it's duketomy.

[B]

Honestly, I'm the person at the party who, like, never knows when anyone is on anything. Like, I'm such a Pollyanna about it. I'm like, it's crazy. Everyone was just dancing for like 16 hours straight. And people are like, do you know what?

[A]

You pupils are huge. And they kept telling me how much

[B]

they love me and, like, licking their lips and, like, doing all of this weird stuff. And I'm just, like, plotting along, having had, you know, one cocktail and feeling it.

[A]

Same way.

[B]

Yeah, I'm a dork.

[A]

I get it. Okay, let's take a quick break. Stay with us. Welcome back.

[B]

Let's talk about Epstein.

[A]

Okay, so let's move from one crisis overseas to another one back at home that seems to be picking at a scab constantly, which I think is a good thing. A federal judge has unsealed a disturbing note allegedly written by Jeffrey Epstein before his first apparent suicide attempt in jail. Trump Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick faced tough questions on Capitol Hill over his past ties to Epstein after newly released records contradicted earlier public statements. Lutnick testified before the Senate back in February, where he admitted having visited Epstein's island.

[B]

Did you, in fact, make the visit to Jeffrey Epstein's private island?

[A]

I did have lunch with him as I was on a boat going across on a family vacation. My wife was with me, as were my four children and nannies I had another couple with. They were there as well with their children. And we had lunch on the island, that is true, for an hour. And we left with all of my children, with my nannies and my wife all together. We were on family vacation. We were not apart. His testimony yesterday before the House Oversight Committee wasn't taped, but here's Virginia Congressman Suhas Subrahmanyam on how it went. Howard Lotnik should resign. That was absolutely mind boggling what we just heard in the room. He was evasive, nervous. He was dishonest. And then he said that Jeffrey Epstein was A sick man, that he would never want to be in the room with him again. Yet he was in the room with him again when he visited his island where Jeffrey Epstein raped women, underage women, and he brought his kids and his friends with him to that island. And finally, he doesn't remember why he went to Jeffrey Epstein's island, which is also mind boggling. He somehow remembers going to the island after pictures surfaced of him being at the island, but he does remember why he went to the island. And we had the emails. That's why we found out he was at the island. This is absolutely absurd and he should resign.

[B]

I don't know what to say about this. You know, Ludnick is a liar. He lied in a public forum like that, already contradicting himself. There are photos of him with Epstein and two other men, one of whom I think worked at Canter Fitzgerald with him. Like, he obviously didn't spend the whole time with his wife and kids and nannies and all of them. Also, it was what, 2012? Like, people knew who Jeffrey Epstein was at that point. He had already been convicted. Why are you bringing your children and your wife and your nanny there for lunch anyway? The Democratic Congress people who interviewed him yesterday and should note it was not videotaped and multiple of them noted that that was a good thing because Donald Trump would have freaked out if he had seen how sweaty and nervous he was the entire time. He also wasn't under oath, so can't really take any of this that seriously. But Congresswoman Ansari said, after what we've seen so far in this transcribed interview, I feel very comfortable saying that Howard Lutnick is a pathological liar who is enabling the most egregious cover up in American history. And Walkinshaw said what we heard was hours of testimony where Letnick was attempting to redefine the meaning of the word I. He claims that when he said I would never be in a room again with Jeffrey Epstein, he. He meant only him and Jeffrey Epstein alone. So it's cool if other people are there with you and Jeffrey Epstein. So I feel like if you don't have these people under oath, if there isn't some repercussion for lying, then it just doesn't matter at this point. The suicide note, where are you on it? I like, I know that the handwriting matches a lot of other Epstein stuff and a few of the key phrases that have shown up in his emails were in there. But like, I don't know, I don't know if I believe it. And I'm trying also not to be a conspiracy theorist about the whole thing.

[A]

So just with respect to Ludnick, I mean, it is somewhat ironic that everyone's. Everyone's outraged about Ludnick. He may, in fact, take a fall for this. His involvement, whatever it is or wasn't, or how he's downplaying it, or how we know he's downplaying it. We know he's lying. Yeah. But what's interesting is that he might take a fall for what it seems obviously to me to be a fraction of the involvement, intimacy, friendship and contact that the President had over years and years and years with Jeffrey Epstein. The thing I take away, or the learning is the following. This is just a prime example of crisis management totally gone wrong. And that is because Trump can get away with just lying and denying everything and take a page out of the playbook of Roy Cohn and never back down, never apologize. Attack, attack, attack. Other people think they can get away with the same thing, and they can't. They don't have the Jedi skills of lying, and they aren't Jim Jones. They don't have the cult worship that Trump has that enables him to pull this type of lying off. So the rules of traditional crisis management apply to everyone else, and they're the following. One, you acknowledge the problem. Yeah, I knew this guy. Convicted felon, pedophile. I can understand why people are suitably freaked out about any association with him, especially among a cabinet member. I 100% get it. Two, I take responsibility. I thought Jeffrey Epstein at the time was hanging out with everyone from Bill Gates to Bill Clinton, MIT scientist, was a philanthropist. I thought that he might be helpful to my business. I thought that, you know, I might be able to raise money from him. I was in the business of gathering assets. He seemed like a power broker, a power player. The people around him oozed of credibility. The most credible people in the world. You know, I engaged in this. I wanted to be his friend. But assuming this is true, I didn't do anything resembling trafficking of young women. I was not engaged in sex with girls. I apologize. It was an error in judgment. I am guilty of this error in judgment, and I'm going to make sure it doesn't happen again. I think if he'd said the following, he would have probably gotten. The Democrats would have hit him on the wrist and asked for his resignation, and da, da, da would have filtered up. But I think this would be over at this point because so many people have appeared to have done so much worse. Who have had absolutely nothing happen to him. The thing about Martha Stewart wasn't sent to prison for insider trading. She was sent to prison, by the way. She made a whole $40,000 in profit. She was sent to prison for lying to federal investigators. It's always the COVID up that gets you in trouble. You, one, acknowledge the problem, two, you take responsibility personally, and three, you overcorrect. It's so obvious. It's proven through time, this is the way to go. And yet everyone still makes the same mistake. They deny, they diminish, they don't take responsibility. They don't say they're gonna change their behavior. And this is playing out. This guy is literally unwinding. And what's just so interesting is he may end up taking the fall for what is again, a fraction of the depravity weirdness association that his boss has clearly been guilty of.

[B]

That advice, like, I love that advice. I. You try to live by that advice. Do you think Trump would accept that, though? I mean, that's the thing. I think he's just, like, gonna get fired no matter. You know, it's like, even worse to admit it, you know?

[A]

Yeah. If he said, I was wrong, Trump would be like, that's not how we operate. Right.

[B]

You're weak. Like, get out of here with Kristi Noem and Pam.

[A]

That's a fair point. You never acknowledge the point. You never back down. That is a fair point. With respect to the Epstein note, the most interesting thing about the note is how sort of emotionally ordinary it sounds. And I can see why these two were really good friends. It's not a confession of remorse. It reads as defensive, sarcastic, and more kind of. It reeks of grievance. So in quotes. Found nothing. Another quote. What you want me to do, bust out crying? And then I thought, the most illuminating line in the whole thing, assuming it's real and it felt real to me, is quote, it is a treat to be able to choose one's time to say goodbye. In other words, he's saying, the insight here is it hints that losing status and control may have mattered more to him than death itself. And then the other thing is, it's just weird. Like, his cellmate found it but not investigators, which is going to give rise to a lot of conspiracy theories. But when I read it, I don't know about you, it felt real to me. Your thoughts?

[B]

Yeah. Like, it comps with, like I said, the handwriting and other phrases that he had used in his emails. I do think if I were Jeffrey Epstein, I probably would have wanted to go out on my own terms because you know that you have ended up in a place unimaginable for how high you had been. Right. Like the level of access that you have to all the most powerful people in American business and government and really on a global scale. So if you're like sitting in a cell, you're probably thinking, I don't know if it's going to be my sex, Mossad, CIA or whoever is going to take me out, but, like, I'm going to. So the sentiment resonates. But also, even like Julie K. Brown, who, you know, shout out for the late Pulitzer mentioned this year for her work, she said, yeah, you're not a conspiracy theorist for saying that Jeffrey Epstein didn't kill himself.

[A]

So it would seem obvious, wouldn't it, if you found out that someone had him off. Some billionaire who was on those planes, whatever.

[B]

It's not even some billionaire. I mean, there are all sorts of ways that you could get to this. Right? It could be someone within the government. Right. I mean, and their longtime connections in both administrations. Right, To Jeffrey Epstein, Queen Elizabeth and Prince Andrew. Right. I mean, he's very linked to Mossad and powerful Israelis. Like, there are a lot of people that wanted Jeffrey Epstein to die. So I don't know, the note, it's like catnip for all of this. It does revive it to some degree, but I guess it just continues to put in focus the fact that these survivors have not gotten what they need out of this whatsoever, and they're getting treated like pawns continually in this process. You know, with Melania out there with her statement, like, you know, I am not a victim. This is about the victims. And Trump saying, yeah, of course, I don't care if they testify. Like, it's all bullshit. These, these poor women, you know, who are getting pushed back and forth as, like I said, like pawns in this. That's what is the real story.

[A]

I feel like the woke brigade had a reflex reaction to say, all right, we hate Trump, but we're. We're decent people, nice people. The first lady is smart. I constantly heard from people, oh, but the first lady is smart. I have seen absolutely no evidence that First Lady Trump is not a village fucking idiot. For her to go on TV when no one was asking into a public statement that I am not a victim of Epstein, I did not know him. Was like her saying, oh, I'm absolutely was introduced to Trump by Epstein. Oh, I absolutely had a very, very intimate relationship. No one was asking her to say this she clearly didn't coordinate with White House communications. And I mean, it's just like, okay, don't you have any friends that can tell you all you are doing is like, thou protesteth too much. With respect to the conspiracy theory, I believe the element of conspiracy here that I am fairly certain will eventually be unearthed is the following. One or more security apparatus of different nations was very involved with Jeffrey Epstein when he was convicted. He was facing a five year minimum mandatory sentence for the crime he was convicted of in 08. And somehow he ended up with, I believe it was six months house arrest. Yeah, it just seems too obvious to me that he was providing information on powerful individuals to the Mossad or another security apparatus, the gru, the ccp. And then the CIA found out about it and said, okay, you can go to jail for the rest of your fucking life or you can become a double agent and we'll just put an ankle monitor on you for six months. There was one or more governments in security apparati. Apparati apparatuses involved with Jeffrey Epstein. And at some point that's going to come out and it's going to be very embarrassing for whether it's the CIA, the nsa, the Mossad, and I wouldn't be surprised if they are the ones that potentially had this guy offed. There are so many weird things about his death. I am not a conspiracy theorist. My biggest conspiracy theory is that people are so desperate for novelty and lack such critical thinking or primary education skills that they will engage in massive conspiracy theory because it's their form of dopa and it's better than late night TV. I think 99% of conspiracy theories are total bullshit. The moment someone says a conspiracy theory, I'm like, okay, fucking idiots. Promoting things they don't understand or going to a false narrative. Having said that, this one's good though. Well, this one just doesn't add up. The security cameras were accidentally turned off

[B]

and the money to the guard. Yeah, it's.

[A]

The two security guards were accidentally not there. Even the things like I had the journalist the Pulitzer Prize on the podcast

[B]

I was there with Julie K. Brown. I just mentioned.

[A]

Was that us?

[B]

Yeah, that was me.

[A]

Everything's mixing together. But you're my favorite clip that. Remember when she said. She said something really interesting, that all the items on the top bunk were undisturbed despite the fact the force you would have had to apply on the sheet that was attached to the bed would have probably taken the bunk bed halfway across the room. I mean, there was just all these things that don't. That don't, don't add up. Should we move on?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Let's take one last quick break. Welcome back.

[B]

Let's go to Indiana.

[A]

Let's go to Indiana. Trump's grip on the Republican Party looks as strong as ever in Indiana. GOP lawmakers who crossed him on redistricting were punished at the ballot box after millions flooded into primary races, sending a clear message about loyalty heading into 2026. Does this kind of political enforcement strengthen party unity or, or deep and long term fractures within the gop?

[B]

Jess, I really don't think it's that big of a deal. Like, the GOP needed some electoral infusion, right? Like they've just been losing special election after special election. The 2025 elections were obviously, you know, big bummers for them. So they're like bragging. We talked about this on the Five yesterday. You know, the framing of maga's untouchable or whatever. It was five of seven. These are state senators also. And it's a state that Donald Trump won by 19 points. So your big brag is that Donald Trump was able to get five of seven. And I should note also one of these seats is a swing state seat. So this might end up being a bad thing long term anyway, because they could then lose the seat. But you're talking about like ruby red territory. You're not talking about convincing anyone of something that didn't already believe it necessarily. And arguably the state senators who refused to go along with his redistricting plan were actually out of step with their voters. Right. Because that's where a lot of the MAGA base lives. So it was like, you know, Donald Trump did a call to action and it worked this time. It didn't work when he did in California. It didn't work when he did it in Virginia. It hasn't been working in special elections across the country. So I think it's a data point, but I don't think it tells the story. I also don't want, you know, Democrats to get cocky and say, you know, he has no power and MAGA has so many fissures that they're not going to be a force to be reckoned with. Obviously that would be an enormous mistake going into a midterm. But I did, I don't know, I thought it was a little bit like, you know, how the right makes fun of progressives for the participation trophy. Even though Donald Trump has the, you know, the FIFA World Peace Prize or whatever he got. It felt a little bit like that to me. Where you're like, did you see my state Senate seats in deep red Indiana? Well, that means that maga's back. So that was my overall take.

[A]

Yeah, I agree with you. Feels like a, feels like a bit of a nothing burger here. The pressure campaign isn't in just red states. In Virginia, state Senator and Democratic power broker Louise Lucas is now under federal scrutiny after the FBI raided her office just months after she led a redistricting push that could reshape the House map. Jess, do you think this is real? What do you think what's going on here?

[B]

I think it might be a little bit real and it's also super politicized. So the corruption probe into Louise Lucas and it has to do with the marijuana business and she has a hemp store was opened under the Biden administration and then it just kind of nothing came of it. So the timing of this after the huge win is last month and redistricting in Virginia and she was really like the madam of all of this. I mean, she pushed hard. There's this great quote from her about redistricting as they were kind of going back and forth in Virginia about what they should do. She posted. I have the utmost respect for Senator Kaine and Senator Warner, but we do not need, quote, coaching on redistricting coming from a cuck chair in the corner. How about you all stay focused on the fascists in the White House and let us handle redistricting in Virginia 10 to 1. Like she is a ball buster, this woman, 82 years old. I know that we talk a lot about being too old. Right. And that you should pass the baton. Louise Lucas, you can hold that baton for as long as you are throwing that kind of shade and having that level of sass. And this DOJ is completely politicized. I mean, you can't look at the fact that now Comey is being hauled back in for something. You know, they had to drop the probe into Powell even though Trump still says that it's going on. You know, Tish James, John Bolton, you know, you tick down the list and all the people who are sitting waiting for when it's going to be their turn. So I can't really believe that it's all that genuine. But it is important to note that the Biden administration were the ones that did open the probe originally. What do you think?

[A]

Yeah, look, the knee jerk reaction from a progressive who has witnessed the corruption of the Trump administration and the weaponization of the Department of Justice that is now headed not by one, but two of the President's personal legal counsel makes it such that you just have an autoimmune reaction to think this is corrupt. But the reality is the following. While a search warrant is not proof of guilt, it does meet a serious threshold. Federal judges do not casually approve raids on senior state legislators. So, you know, at the same time, high profile corruption probes often look strongest at the raid stage and weaker later once evidence is scrutinized publicly. So I think this is one of those things where I think it's unfair to say, well, this is obviously politicized. At the same time, we have to see what the, you know, what the evidence bears here.

[B]

And that's what Spanberger said. You know, the governor, she said, like, let's let this play out, whereas other people kind of went to the mats for Louise Lucas on this. So, I mean, it's a responsible thing to do anyway.

[A]

Rubio and El Papa, what do you think?

[B]

I love how they're like, oh, he's not trying to smooth anything out. Like, obviously, he's trying to fix this. And I'm sure it's something that really upsets Rubio as a Catholic to see the President going after the Pope like this, but also the fact that. That the Pope is so openly against much of the Trump agenda. Right. Everything from immigration to foreign policy, which is his purview. Right. I mean, it's the Secretary of State, as the Pope is saying that we should not engage in war. There is no just war. And, you know, chooses to spend his time talking about kids that are being killed as, you know, sideshows to these wars in the Middle east and the importance of taking in refugees and all these things that it seems like America doesn't care about at all. So I think it's definitely trying to smooth it over. I'm not sure how it'll go. Pope Leo seems like he's got a pretty strong backbone. Right. And that he's gonna tell it like it is. What will be really interesting is how Rubio threads the needle, I think, and how he balances his own faith and support for, you know, the leader of the Catholic Church with his other leader and how important it is to Trump that you always seem like you're on the side of Maga and that tension, you'll probably. He probably feels a little bit like 2016 Rubio. Right. Like Lil Marco and is like, who's more important here? Right. Like Leo or Trump. And I feel like you could make the wrong decision, you know, like, in the heavenly sense on this one. What do you think's gonna happen.

[A]

I don't know. I just. The images of him there, it looks like he's about to pitch the Pope on sanctions or a podcast appearance. It feels like a LinkedIn conference with incense. It just feels so lame somehow. You know, the Vatican has survived plagues, crusades, centuries of corruption, so my guess is, you know, they're going to swat away a Florida center with cable news confidence like a fucking gnat. I just think this is a non event. I don't think it smooths things over. I don't. You know, Marco, for me, is like the human embodiment of the reply all button. It just. It means whatever's about to come out of his mouth or whatever you're about to read is weak sauce. And I've seen a lot of people say that he's now the front runner for president. I have absolutely no idea who Marco, who Senator Rubio is, other than the person who will say absolutely anything at the moment that he think is politically expedient. I just don't. I have no sense for what his actual principles are. None whatsoever. And him at the Vatican, kind of what you said about Indiana, I think it's a total nothing burger. I don't. I think he'll be hosted as, you know, as a Secretary of state. But this Pope, this guy does not scare easily. This guy is smart. This guy's tough, people. That's right, Villanovograd. He's unafraid, is in service of others, and is incredibly articulate. And I think this is purely political. I think Trump has figured out that, okay, I can't lose the event. The evangelicals and. And Rubio and Vance were probably fighting over, hey, I. I would like to be the guy pictured with the Pope, because, you know, we're both running, but I don't.

[B]

Vance already killed a Pope, so he doesn't get to come. Remember, he met the last pope and then he died, like a day later. Yeah.

[A]

That's not fair. That's not fair.

[B]

I take it back. He didn't, but the timing was. Yeah.

[A]

So let's move to something a little lighter. Obama stopped by the Late show with Stephen Colbert and took some not so subtle shots at Trump without ever saying his name. Obama also warned about politicizing. The Justice Department, told Democrats to stop talking like they're in a college seminar. And he may or may not have endorsed Colbert to run for office. Let's listen to a clip. I'm looking for a new gig soon, and a lot of people tell me I should run for president. Well, you certainly have the look. Thank you very much. You have the hair. Well, for the record, I think it's a stupid idea. How dumb, how dumb do you think it is for people to say that I should run for president? Well, you know, the bar has changed. That is true. At times subterranean, so I don't have to limbo so low. They put it this way, I think that you could significantly better than some folks that we've seen.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah, I have great confidence in that. Thank you very much. Is that an endorsement? It was not. How about you? Can you see endorsing Colbert?

[B]

No. And it was funny to think about actually, because, you know, Colbert ran or was going to run in 2008 and do the South Carolina primary and that there was like a real conversation about whether that would siphon votes off of the Democratic candidates. Were, you know, Obama obviously had a good run in, in 2008. But I feel so lame or stereotypical when these things happen. But like, I'm just happy to see Obama back. I'm just happy to listen to him. And I'm not saying everything is perfect and that he always nails it or whatever, but like, I'm pretty close. He does. He comes pretty close. And the talking about how we just need to be normal human beings and not, you know, be automaton college professors, they had this great exchange about the tan suit, which I brought up on the five where Colbert showed him the picture of the tan suit and he said, like, what do you think when you see that? And Obama goes fly. It was a fly suit. It was a great suit. Jackie Waters tried to tell me yesterday that he didn't mock Obama about it. I was like, roll the tape. All you crazy people talking about the guy wearing a tan suit at the podium. Why can't we have nice things anymore like Barack Obama?

[A]

Yeah. So I think Stephen Colbert is not only an exceptional late night talent, I think he's a principled guy. I would love to see him run for Senate. And I'm not sure. I do think there is, as evidenced by this previous administration. I think people who have no experience in D.C. have a difficult time operating, as evidenced by Trump. I do think there's something to be said for a senator probably shouldn't try and be a heart surgeon and someone who has never had an experience in D.C. should probably not try and run for president, in my view. I think he'd be a fantastic public servant. Also, I've had some exposure to Stephen Colbert outside of the entertainment. He's actually a bit of an Entrepreneur. And I was on a call with him, talking to him about this tech company that he's involved in, the startup. And he's a very astute guy. He's quite, he's smart. And the reason I'm so impressed by him is that there are a few people that have kind of the athletic skills to be good in one medium and also very good in another. And you can tell he understands business and shareholder value and his team is very loyal to him. He's clearly pretty good at managing people after all the shit he's taken. I think he clearly has the constitution to be in office where overnight between 49 and 51% of America just hates you. So I would, I would love to see him run for something.

[B]

I think Al Franken was a great senator.

[A]

Oh, I, I will never forgive. I know you're mad Senator Gillibrand for taking a really powerful voice of Democrats out of the Democratic Party so she could engage in a four minute run for president and no one asked her to do. Oh, I can't anyways. I absolutely love Senator Franken. I think he's fantastic. I've had him on the couple pod a few times and I've been on

[B]

his pod and I went to high school with his kids.

[A]

Oh, you did? He was a wrestler in high school and college. I think he was a great athlete. Speaking of great athletes, you know, there was a great athlete who passed away just in the last few days. Do you know what I'm speaking about?

[B]

Was Ted Turner, low key, a great athlete.

[A]

Ted Turner was not only a billionaire, but he won the America's Cup. And people don't know that. I mean there are very few billionaires that are considered also an elite athlete. He died a few days ago at the age of 87. He'd been struggling for the last decade, I think with dementia. But some things people don't know about him. He basically built CNN from nothing. He kind of revolutionized the media ecosystem with a 24 by 7. The idea of 24 by 7 news, which at the time seemed ridiculous. It used to be 23 minutes a day. And it was a money losing proposition where ABC would print money by showing you the Partridge Family and the Brady Bunch and selling Tang ads. And as a public service they would run this money loser called news. And then he decided, no, the world is ready for 24. 7News. Over 200 nations stream CNN. He also gave away a billion dollars. He gave a billion dollars to the United nations, which I think is sort of interesting. So he didn't just win in one arena. He won in four or five. Also a fantastic kind of role model for masculinity. Very aggressive risk taker, handsome, great athlete, but also was very concerned about trying to use his position in his seat to serve others. But he was a really a fantastic role model. Kind of one of the great kind of iconic captains of industry is the way I would describe it. Also married to Jane Fondo, which I think is kind of interesting.

[B]

Her favorite husband, her favorite.

[A]

She's been married five times. Is that three?

[B]

I think it's only three. He had four girlfriends at once. That when I was doing my deep dive research for this. Yeah, I think Jane Bond is only three.

[A]

I saw her at the Vanity Fair

[B]

party and she's so amazing looking. I did it. I was on a zoom with her and I was like, I can't even look at you. Like you're. This is insane that you look like this, especially at this age.

[A]

Anyways, any thoughts or reflections on Ted Turner?

[B]

Well, you covered a lot of it. I think the dedication to conservation efforts and his environmentalism probably the key plank of his legacy. And his kids. He has five kids, 14 grandchildren, and they're all carrying on his philanthropy in one way or another. I remember going to visit CNN headquarters in Atlanta when I worked in polling so ages ago in like 2013 or 2014 and reading about him there and kind of the cult like presence that he had over everything and how pathbreaking it was. And he seemed like a pretty magic person.

[A]

Let's leave it there. Before we go, a reminder, the Raging Moderates is on substack as part of Prof. G plus if you sign up for Profit plus, you not only get access to ad free episodes and exclusive live streams, you'll also get a way to connect with us. Plus you can get the Raging Moderates newsletter, the Monday Rage in your inbox every week, guaranteed access to tickets for live tours and a bunch of other merch and stuff. Also, we're making a few changes to the show. You'll be getting more of us with longer episodes dropping Monday, Tuesday and Thursday afternoons in addition to all the fun and rage that's happening on Substack. That's all for this episode. Thank you so much for joining us today. If I don't speak to you, Jess, happy Mother's Day. Well done, two kids.

[B]

I'm gonna go get some jewelry, do

[A]

some coke, do some blow. Yeah, do some blowhead.

[B]

That's what happens at Mother's Day brunches, right?

[A]

Better yet, do lines at Cartier Boom. That's a Mother's Day. Now that's a Mother's Day.

[B]

That's a sexy Mother's Day. I'll report back.

[A]

By the way, another shout out to to my brothers. Highly sexist. Whatever your wife, girlfriend, mom says about Mother's Day or Valentine's Day is a lot.

[B]

It matters.

[A]

Celebrate it. They do not mean it when they say, I just want to have dinner or I don't want to do anything big, or I just want to spend time with you and the kids. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Overboard. Go overboard. She's lying. She's lying. Anyways, happy Mother's Day, Sam.