MAGA’s Cultural Moment (feat. Wesley Morris)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
Episode: MAGA’s Cultural Moment (feat. Wesley Morris)
Release Date: June 6, 2025

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Hosts:

• Jessica Tarlov, Political Strategist and Co-host of The Five
• Wesley Morris, Pulitzer Prize-Winning Critic at The New York Times

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1. Emotional Aftermath of the 2016 Election

Jessica Tarlov and Wesley Morris open the discussion by reflecting on the profound emotional impact of the 2016 U.S. presidential election.

Key Points:

• The 2016 election led to intense emotional responses, including crying episodes by Morris and his co-host Jenna Wortham.
• The unexpected victory of Donald Trump was not just about one individual but symbolized deeper societal stresses and fears.

Notable Quotes:

• Jessica Tarlov (02:39): “Could you take me through it all?”
• Wesley Morris (04:28): “As black people, as gay people, you just know is true about this place... it was just really upsetting.”

2. Mainstreaming of MAGA Culture

The conversation shifts to how MAGA (Make America Great Again) has become a pervasive cultural force, moving beyond its political origins to influence mainstream fashion and behavior.

Key Points:

• MAGA hats, once symbols of political allegiance, are now adopted as mainstream fashion statements by younger demographics.
• This shift signifies a broader cultural acceptance and normalization of previously fringe political symbols.

Notable Quotes:

• Jessica Tarlov (06:33): “...seeing MAGA hats now on 28-year-old dudes, right, that are going to pick up girls at Dune or whatever.”
• Wesley Morris (08:28): “...proof to me of a cultural shift that nobody's really acknowledging as even having shifted.”

3. Cultural Shifts and Masculinity in Politics

Morris delves into the resurgence of traditional masculine energy within conservative politics and its influence on contemporary cultural norms.

Key Points:

• There is an observable trend towards hyper-masculinity in the political arena, exemplified by figures like Donald Trump and their alignment with traditionally masculine symbols and behaviors.
• These shifts are reflected in broader cultural trends, such as the popularity of carbon wedding rings among men, symbolizing a departure from traditional gold bands and an embrace of more "masculine" aesthetics.

Notable Quotes:

• Wesley Morris (17:31): “There is this masculine energy that everybody has access to....”
• Jessica Tarlov (22:09): “...it's either cool. Maybe it's telling me about my REM cycle and I'm not doing the conventional thing.”

4. Trans Rights and Political Strategy

The hosts discuss the politicization of transgender rights, the strategic elevation of minority issues by the left, and the conservative backlash against these movements.

Key Points:

• The left’s advocacy for transgender rights aimed to secure protective and civil rights but resulted in significant conservative backlash.
• Political strategies often exploit cultural issues, transforming them into economic concerns to sway voter opinions, as seen in the misuse of transgender topics to influence economic perceptions.

Notable Quotes:

• Jessica Tarlov (27:50): “...the left elevated the concerns of such a tiny group to an outsized proportion.”
• Jessica Tarlov (31:20): “...the most persuasive ad from the cycle, bar none.”

5. Political Fatigue and Voter Demographics

Tarlov and Morris explore the growing political fatigue among voters, the diversification of voting patterns, and the implications for future elections.

Key Points:

• There is a widespread sense of political fatigue, with many voters feeling overwhelmed and disengaged from the constant barrage of political discourse.
• Voting demographics have become more unpredictable, with increasing numbers of traditionally non-Democratic groups supporting Republican candidates.

Notable Quotes:

• Jessica Tarlov (37:11): “...we have to ax take a referendum of the party in power and will band aid over the real wounds.”
• Wesley Morris (38:44): “...we are never really going to be able to sit with and reckon with what is actually happening to us as a people.”

6. Personal Rages and Calms

In keeping with the podcast’s tradition, both hosts share personal frustrations and comforting thoughts.

Key Points:

• Wesley Morris expresses frustration with public etiquette, specifically the misuse of escalators and cell phones in public spaces.
• For calming down, Morris highlights recent successes in the New York Knicks basketball team, emphasizing the importance of sports as a unifying and uplifting force.

Notable Quotes:

• Wesley Morris (47:43): “...complain about people on escalators.”
• Wesley Morris (49:43): “I think that it's going to be fine one way or the other.”

7. Sports and Cultural Integration

The discussion concludes with an upbeat reflection on the New York Knicks' performance, symbolizing hope and unity amidst political and cultural turbulence.

Key Points:

• The Knicks' impressive performance serves as a metaphor for resilience and the potential for positive cultural moments to transcend political divisions.
• Morris views sports as vital in maintaining communal spirit and offering a sense of normalcy and achievement.

Notable Quotes:

• Jessica Tarlov (50:40): “It was an unbelievable sports night.”
• Wesley Morris (52:38): “Every New Yorker is going to be fine. One way or the other is going to be fine.”

8. Upcoming Projects and Closing Remarks

Before wrapping up, Wesley Morris briefly promotes his new podcast, "Cannonball," which focuses on art and culture.

Key Points:

• Morris encourages listeners to check out his new cultural show, emphasizing its focus on in-depth conversations about art and societal trends.

Notable Quotes:

• Wesley Morris (53:01): “It's a culture show where I talk to people about art and culture and stuff.”

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Conclusion

In this episode of Raging Moderates, Jessica Tarlov and Wesley Morris provide a nuanced analysis of the cultural and political shifts influenced by the MAGA movement. Through their insightful conversation, they explore the intersection of politics, culture, and societal norms, highlighting the complexities of modern American political identity. Their dialogue underscores the challenges of political fatigue, the mainstreaming of previously fringe movements, and the evolving dynamics of voter demographics, all while maintaining a hopeful outlook through personal interests and communal experiences like sports.

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Note: All timestamps correspond to the provided transcript and are used to attribute direct quotes accordingly.

Transcript

[Jessica Tarlov]

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[Wesley Morris]

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[Jessica Tarlov]

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[Wesley Morris]

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[Jessica Tarlov]

Welcome to Raging Moderates. I'm Jessica Tarlov Scott and I talk a lot about politics, of course, and tangentially, the impact it has on culture and vice versa. Today I'm joined by Wesley Morris, who's been thinking, writing and podcasting about culture for decades. He's a Pulitzer Prize winning crit at the New York Times and in fact, he's the only person to have ever won the Pulitzer Prize for criticism twice. He's also a great friend and I'm thrilled to have him here. And just to be clear, we recorded this conversation on Tuesday of last week. Thank you for joining me, Wesley.

[Wesley Morris]

I cannot believe I'm on this show.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Is it like career achievement better than the Pulitzer or it's just like I'm.

[Wesley Morris]

Sitting in your living room one minute and now I'm sitting in my kitchen talking to you on your show.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Yeah, it's great. Thank you for doing it.

[Wesley Morris]

It's an hon and a pleasure. Thank you.

[Jessica Tarlov]

No, the honor is all mine and our listeners and I have so many directions that I wanted to go. But I was re listening to your episode of Still Processing from after the 2016 election.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, no.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Oh yes. Well, oh no for the world, but oh yes, for our conversation. And you and your co host Jenna Wortham are crying in this episode. And it's so raw and it's so emotional. I was curious to know how you felt recording it. And it was widely shared and what the aftermath of that looked like. And then I want to bring it to Trump's re election, which felt so markedly different. Right. There was almost no emotionality to it at all. We all just said like, oh, that sucks and got on with the rest of our. I mean, it was declared Tuesday night and then Wednesday just happened. It wasn't a day where people were Crying in their offices. So could you, could you take me through it all?

[Wesley Morris]

We had just launched that show. I think that might have been our sixth episode, our fifth episode. And you know, I'll just speak for me, Jay probably would agree with me, but I had like two qualifications for president for a long time and they were, what happens when this person gets off a plane in somebody else's country? And are they a racist?

[Jessica Tarlov]

Low bar.

[Wesley Morris]

This person failed both those tests. Right. You know, a unique kind of racist, I must say. But like the thing that he brought with him, that he was going to bring with him to the White House was going to be, you know, an assortment of racisms. Right. Like Trump is this kind of like he's always got plausible deniability with everything. There's always a veil over the way he talks about non white people. Whereas, you know, some of the people that came with him were almost certainly not going to have a veil. And I think the thing that really brought the tears was it was a proof of a thing that, you know, as black people, as, as gay people, you know, you just know is true about this place. And to have it entering the highest office in the land and again, like bringing with it to the agencies, to these staff positions, all of these sort of dark forces that are really hard to undo. I don't know, it was just really is upsetting. And I also think that it wasn't really just about Donald Trump in that moment. It was really about the entire, the whole stress of that campaign. Like, I mean, I don't know, were you, you were probably stressful for you too.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Yeah, it was my first rodeo working in conservative media and Hillary was, I loved her and I fit the perfect demo. Who would love her like an over educated white woman. But people disliked her in a way that I didn't fathom until she lost. Like, I knew she wasn't like quote unquote likable, but I did not know that she was so unlikable that Donald Trump could become president.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. I mean, yeah. So you were going through the same thing that we were going through, right?

[Jessica Tarlov]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Which was, okay, these are your options. These are your options.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Totally.

[Wesley Morris]

And when I think of like what a president is, can be, should be, could possibly do once they get elected, it's like there's never been a more presidential, presidential candidate than Hillary Clinton. Right. Like Hillary Clinton would be president in every single action movie that needed a president to do something.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

So I think what was wild to me was I wasn't surprised that he won I mean, there was a moral equivalency that also seemed to have taken hold, and it made it really hard to see the reality of what the stakes were. There was just like a. This was the moment in which everything changed and you could no longer pretend that conventional political coverage was gonna cut it for this person. I don't know. We were crying for a lot of shit that day. Part of it was Hillary, part of it was him. Part of it was 400 years. Part of it was what the future was gonna look like. Part of it was that there are enough people who did not want to live in the reality of 2016. That was also kind of demoralizing. I mean, I was just thinking about going through the airport, like, what's it going to be like to, like, go through an airport now and see all these MAGA hats? Because MAGA at that time was still like, to me, those hats were scary for the energy that they kicked up and like the swagger of the people who wore them. It wasn't rappers at that time. Right. It was like it was January Sixers or what will become January Sixers.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Yeah. And I want to talk about a change in kind of the way that culture looks now that MAGA is so mainstreamed.

[Wesley Morris]

Totally different.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Yeah, totally different. I mean, you walk around. We both live in New York City. You walk around the West Village, you see MAGA hats now on 28 year old dudes, right, that are going to pick up girls at Dune or whatever.

[Wesley Morris]

Or whatever.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Or whatever, you know, whatever they're doing. But before we get to that, I've been overwhelmed, and not in the I'm gonna start crying sentence, but just deeply unsettled and sad that politics doesn't seem to mean as much to people as it did in 2016. Like something has been broken in us. And I mean, maybe we won't get a Barack Obama again generally, but you will not get that outpouring of emotion, not only here in the United States, but worldwide if you elect somebody like that again. Because something has been cauterized almost inside of us, so we won't allow ourselves to feel as deeply anymore. And I felt that for the 2024 election, a lot of that was that the win was predicted and, you know, the Biden stuff and the Kamala stuff. But what do you make of that as a kind of a statement about where culture is, that that politics is now something for the folks that engage in politics, but it's not mainstream on the left anymore.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, you know what's funny? You. You mentioned The MAGA hats in the West Village. And I have been thinking about these other hats that I know you've seen, which are basically those. Those hunting and fishing caps. Right. It's got that hunting, fishing, camo, not military. Military colors, but, you know, so you're able to, like, you know, hide yourself when you're hiding the vibe for deer or whatever.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

That design scheme is on so many different things worn by so many different people, and nobody's really thinking about what it signifies, but it is a proof to me of a cultural shift that nobody's really acknowledging as even having shifted. Previously, if you were to see somebody wearing one of those hunter fisher caps in New York City, you would have instantly assumed this person was visiting from somewhere else. But now that that's now just a fashion item, it's not even a statement. It is almost axiomatic that if you're going to put on a hat, it's going to be one of three things. And that design is one of the three things. I think that politics is now popular culture. I mean, I Understand your question 100%, like, inside and out. Like, it does seem that an aspect of our appetite for politics has been diminished mostly through fatigue, I think, mostly because of this thing that I'm also identifying, which is looking at this particular person in Donald Trump and the drama that he brings with him everywhere he goes, and, like, the sort of barrage in our attention and our willingness to give. Give our attention to it or its ability to sort of seize our attention is maybe the better way to put it. You know, we're talking about a person who is very good at turning politics into entertainment. And I mean, I'm not really answering your question, but I'm kind of answering your question, but I think. I don't know. I mean, there's a way. There's a conventional way of thinking about how to recapture people's interest. I think that because the rate has done such a effective job of changing the lingua francas of how candidates get their messages out, how people consume information and get information, that there has to be a tat for their tit on the left. And, you know, people have, like, pointed to that somebody like Hasan Piker is being an answer to Joe Rogan. I don't know if it. I think things are so broken, to your point, and so cauterized that there is going to be no precedent for the antidote to whatever we're currently in, unless it's a war, unless it's like a world war or a civil war. But that's the only normal thing I can think that can address in an even way that we previously have understood what is going on right now. Does that seem plausible to you?

[Jessica Tarlov]

Totally. And I feel like we've actually probably talked about this, but I certainly have with other Democratic leaning people, that it feels as if there is a war coming. And the problem is we don't know how to use guns. As liberals, we're gonna be walking around with like, nice handbags or whatever and a cell phone and saying, you know, back off. And that's concerning to me. I had my first close friend who lives in New York City, has two young children who said that he would feel safer if he had a gun at home. And that stunned me. And what stunned me even more is that I completely understood the sentiment.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, I should say, like, I am here as neither a Democrat nor a Republican, but as a person who is just looking at this stuff and having feelings and thoughts about it. And you say this about this person that I think I might know. And I think about all the data that came out in the last maybe two or three years, maybe it was during the pandemic, even, where people, all kinds of different people, and, you know, black women were who stood out to me as people going to go get trained to use guns. Firearm sales went up a lot. There are lots of these photos of people going to these shooting ranges to get trained and how to use firearms. And I just really. They were all living in the suburbs. You know, a lot of these people, they weren't living in cities, and they just. It created this sense that something cataclysmic was about to happen. And my. My memory of when this was is a little fuzzy, but it was definitely sometime between the. And Biden's election.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Yeah, it totally tracks. I know about the bump in the data, but it was end of times. Feeling like you thought that you were in a show, right? That there are mobile morgues.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, my God, the mobile morgues.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Right. Nurses from all over the country are showing up. It reminded me growing up in the city during 9 11, when we had firefighters that descended upon the city from every corner of the country to come and help. And we had this national moment that was rooted in something completely frightening that none of us understood. And in a weird way, there's all the scary stuff that's associated with it as well. But it did feel like we were one country.

[Wesley Morris]

I was going to say that was a happy convergence, that part of it was.

[Jessica Tarlov]

There was a nationalism that we could all agree upon. Which was a good thing. Okay, let's take a quick break. Stay with us.

[Wesley Morris]

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[Jessica Tarlov]

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[Wesley Morris]

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[Wesley Morris]

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[Jessica Tarlov]

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[Jessica Tarlov]

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[Wesley Morris]

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[Jessica Tarlov]

With award winning service, low costs and transparent advice, you can manage your wealth your way at Schwab. Visit schwab.com to learn more. Welcome back. We already dipped into the caps and it's interesting about the hunting and fishing caps and I find this change, I guess MAGA beauty standards is maybe the right way to talk about it, but I don't have it, whatever it is.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, you're not blonde for one thing.

[Jessica Tarlov]

No, I'm not. I'm continuing to fight as the dark haired representation on Fox News. But you know, it's heavy makeup, the big cross that a lot of these women wear, certainly the White House officials. And you're seeing it also all over TikTok, obviously, Instagram, et cetera. What do you make of this shift? Because I feel like a lot of trends were usually happening on the left and it feels at this moment that the right is just having so much cultural dominance. Like we're receding from the culture challenge or we're doing it ourselves. And I read your piece about sinners and the Kendrick Lamar super bowl halftime show and Beyonce and these are all people or artists that are making a political statement, but they're not doing it in the political arena. Right. Like, they wouldn't be caught dead doing that necessarily at a Kamala rally.

[Wesley Morris]

Right.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Or something like that. They're. They're going their own way because culture, informal politics, has detached. But what do you make of the fact that the right is having this cultural renaissance moment while we're kind of adrift?

[Wesley Morris]

I mean. Well, I mean, wait, can we talk about the beauty standard for a second?

[Jessica Tarlov]

Yeah, sorry. That was like 80 questions in one. But everything is linked somehow in my head.

[Wesley Morris]

I. You know, one of the things that's really striking to me, I don't know exactly what I mean when I say this. I mean, I know what I mean, but I don't exactly know how it's going to sound when I articulate it.

[Jessica Tarlov]

It's going to sound great.

[Wesley Morris]

There is this masculine energy that everybody has access to, because there's something to me about the trad wife phenomenon, the idea that women are supposed to serve men. Right. I mean, there's no other real way to understand this conception that the women have a very specific purpose. And it is. It is not to go to work. It's. It's to do this other thing, which is to, like, propagate to keep the race alive. And I mean, you know, the white race. And so there's this sort of masculinist energy that, like, has made its way into these health considerations, into this obsession with fitness, into this aggressive stance that people in the administration and around the administration have taken that they basically, you know, absorbed from outside the culture. Right. I mean, outside political culture. And this is what I'm saying about this, like, convergence of these two arenas. I mean, the first thing. One of the first things Trump did after the election was go to an MMA fight. Right?

[Jessica Tarlov]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

There are people going to UFC fights. Cash Patel is a big UFC person. Dan Bongino is in the FBI. Like, there is so much. You know, you're gonna laugh when I say this. I'm thinking about all the bellwethers for this too. People like Michael Grimm, who, you know, is. I mean, he's not in politics, I think, for corruption oriented reasons, but he, like, got aggressive with a reporter, I think, in the Capitol. Like, he didn't get in trouble for that, but he definitely had to apologize for it. But this was. There was this masculinist energy around conservative politics. You know, it's not old, the energy, but now it's sort of in charge of everything. And I think that in the same way that Rambo was kind of been misunderstood as this sort of masculine American symbol. And now that Stallone has essentially renounced what Rambo stood for by aligning himself with Trump. I mean, you've got all these old action stars in his orbit. Yeah, there's something about like, everybody's wanting to be fit, that sort of just very conventional ideas of maleness.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Well, RFK Jr doing workout competitions Right. During the campaign, even wearing jeans, but topless and having a very nice physique, certainly for a man of 70.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. And I think that there is. And all the memes of Trump, like having RFK's body, essentially, you know, having Schwarzenegger's body. I also feel like we've never talked about this, but like, I do feel like, I mean, Wait, I'm just gonna ask you this. What do you think about those rings? Those, like, those steel, those carbon rings, those black, you know, wedding bands as.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Wedding bands or the Oura ring as wedding bands? Oh, I'm very anti. Sorry to any listeners I'm offending with that. But I do, I do not enjoy it as a trend. I'm not saying it has to be a plain gold band. I'm. No, you do whatever you want, but totally. But it's weird how it seemed like you just woke up one day and everyone kind of, let's say 30 to 45. 3045 year old men were wearing that as they're banned, which to me doesn't signify in the traditional sense. I'm married and want. Want to wear a band. It looks like this is either cool. Maybe it's telling me about my REM cycle and I'm not doing the conventional thing, like this is not my dad's marriage or this is not my grandfather's marriage.

[Wesley Morris]

So you agree a little bit with me. I think I, I would go a step further, say I'm glad you noticed it.

[Jessica Tarlov]

You always go a Steph. Yes, I notice that a lot.

[Wesley Morris]

I feel like it is such a rejection of the presumption of gold as an effeminate signifier.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Oh, this is why you're a critic of the New York Times and I host this podcast. Yeah, that's a deeper thinking.

[Wesley Morris]

I've been thinking about it and also what it says to me, because you'll notice that, I mean, I have never seen. Seen a heterosexual. I've seen two women have those rings. I've never seen a woman married to a man. Like, if you just do a study of people walking through airports, every person I see with one of those rings is a man. And you never see a corresponding Ring on his spouse.

[Jessica Tarlov]

No.

[Wesley Morris]

And so what, you know, as a gay man who is frequently looking to see, like, who's married and who's not married or I can only deduce that these men are all married to each other. Right. This is like a club that you are part of, whether you think you're joining a club or not. You're definitely choosing to make a statement, whether you know it or not, by having one of those rings. Because it's not like I actually have never surveyed women about this, but I don't know that they were necessary. Were they given the option to not wear one?

[Jessica Tarlov]

I think that you're right that this is a trend that took off just for half the species and did not take the other half with it. And I think at the same time, if you want to go deep, because I really enjoy talking about diamonds and mined diamonds versus lab diamonds as lab diamonds have become more of a thing, and the cost coming down so much that you see the women who would be accompanying these men with bigger and bigger and bigger bling. Right. No one is actually wearing their engagement ring. They're wearing the I've been married for 18 months ring. And I wanted to go out and buy this insane lab monstrosity that I also kind of COVID as well myself. But those carbon rings are also many orders of magnitude less expensive than gold, in case we want to bring economic anxiety into the conversation.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay, great. They're cheaper. Sure.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

But I. Okay, fine.

[Jessica Tarlov]

But mostly they're more masculine. I think that that's correct.

[Wesley Morris]

I just think that they're a more masculine option that also happens to be cheaper. Cheaper, right. I think they're probably cheaper to stay competitive with gold. Right. To keep gold out of the competition. But I also think there's something military about them. Like, there's something like your caps. Yeah, a little bit. You know, because we've been watching since 9 11, the military sort of creep into most of our culture at this point. Right. I mean, from Beyonce's super bowl halftime performance. Well, it wasn't even hers. She stole Coldplay, you know, but that. That moment when formation happened and she showed up basically as a Black Panther. I feel like it's been all over the culture in one way or another, and it's only gotten more enhanced and more subtle, I would say, in these 25 years or 24 years. And there's something about those rings, to me, that just really. They kind of say a lot about men and men's relationships to each other. Men's relationship or Non relationship to women. I have this theory that you may or may not know about. About, you know, men curse to be straight. Where.

[Jessica Tarlov]

I don't know about that one.

[Wesley Morris]

You know, men love men so much, but they're just not gay. And they would really, really, really probably prefer if they were gay in some way, because it just means you don't have to deal with women in the same way. It's like the. It's the purest form of misogyny where, you know, you have the curse of being attracted to women sexually, but you abhor them socially. You don't want to talk to them, you don't want to listen to them, you don't want to share mind space with them. They are not your equals. They are just a receptacle for your penis. I think that cadre of man is very apparent in our culture right now. And those rings, to me, fairly or unfairly, are such a signifier of that. I mean, it's funny, because so much of women's participation in this movement, I mean, because it's dominated by these very performatively masculine men, wind up serving, you know, in this wing of the culture anyway. I mean, they wind up, like, working at the behest of them. Right. I mean, I'm just thinking about, like, this obsession against trans people and this, like, need to declare that we have two genders and two genders only, and then to actively work to eliminate these people from all walks of our lives. That is a sort of psychotic insecurity to me. I don't know. I mean, like, we are working out in real time with very little science to help us how we feel about our own gender while displacing that insecurity on to an oppressed group of people who are just trying to live their lives. It's. It's all sort of bound up in these displays of. In these, what I would call gender displays, essentially.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Do you think that there's any truth to the thesis or do you see any validity in the argument that trans people, who are undoubtedly a persecuted minority, and when you get down to the numbers of people, especially trans athletes in competitive sports, I had the head of the NCAA testifying, and we're talking about, like, 10 people, but that the left elevated the concerns of such a tiny group to an outsized proportion? And then the right, you know, the pendulum is always swinging right between these overreactions. And I know that there are a lot of people who are on the left and very supportive of trans rights who feel that we actually were, to some degree responsible for shining a spotlight on a group that just wanted to, as you said, like, go about their business. Right. Like live their lives, find themselves, find same thing as us, that want a good job, want to find love, have a family.

[Wesley Morris]

I think what you're identifying though is that elevation. Probably, you know, that was at a time when the culture was different. Right. I mean, just thinking back to the arrival of Laverne Cox and Caitlyn Jenner's coming out.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Things were just different then. And I think. You know what I mean, I can't speak for the trans community, but I would say that like an important part of that elevation and that prominence was about the securing of rights, like protective rights, human rights, civil rights, you know, to make sure that they had jobs they could keep, to make sure they could start families the same way that everybody else can. You know, with a variety of federal support and state backed support. I think that there was a real determination to make sure the system was positively responsive to them and their needs. I think that the reaction against that is, to me, not dissimilar from the reactions against all things that aren't in favor of or benefiting exclusively CIS heterosexual, white aligned people. Because I'm just going to say parenthetically, you know, whiteness is both a race and a feeling. You don't have to be white to be white. And I think that the rights reaction to, or conservatives reaction to the inscription of rights for trans people was somehow just like unfathomable to them because they never had a say. And I will say that, you know, never had a say in terms of being able to give rights or, or consecrate rights for trans people. But I will also say that, you know, to your point about the numbers, I think the thing that made gay marriage possible was that at some point there were enough gay people and enough different people's lives.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

To make empathy a real factor here.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Well, and to also make it not politically toxic to jump on board. Like that's how Barack Obama got swung over by Biden, frankly.

[Wesley Morris]

Right. I think that numbers are a huge part of this and, you know, I'd like to see where we are in five years. I'm not saying this is not in any way to say stop fighting for trans rights. I'm just saying I wonder how much harder or easier that fight's going to look like with more out trans people.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Hopefully better. Hopefully better, yeah. And that folks learn how to manage such an important issue more strategically. And that doesn't mean anything about diminishing the rights of people.

[Wesley Morris]

What does that mean to you, though, the managing it more strategically?

[Jessica Tarlov]

I think from a political strategist point of view, I think that when you, like, look back at the election and you see the Charlemagne, the God ad, right. Where he is talking about how Kamala is for transgender surgeries for undocumented people in prison. And that is the most persuasive ad from the cycle, bar none. Right. Seen by the most people every football game. Right. You're going to see it multiple times. And the level of impact. And I should note, well, two things. One, it was inaccurate. I mean, that comes from an ACLU survey that she signed. And that there were transgender, there was gender affirming care that went on in the prison system under Donald Trump. But of course, no one bothers to know anything about that.

[Wesley Morris]

It wouldn't even matter now if that were made explicitly clear.

[Jessica Tarlov]

I've tried multiple times. Nobody cares. But what mattered the most about that ad is it was actually about the economy. Right. Because it was about your tax dollars are being spent on this thing that you don't care about.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, that's smart. That's smart.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Right? And going back to the North Carolina bathroom bill, we saw how little people do care about it. Just like, go about your business, go to the bathroom. I'm not thinking about it. And the right was able to seize on a culture war issue that was important to everyone because it became an economic issue. And then to my mind, they always elevate these tiny bits of truth or this tiny kernel of bad feelings or hate, whatever it is, and then they make it the most important issue. And you see that even in the data that's coming in today, focus groups that are happening about, you know, what Kamala Harris stood for. And she actually had the most ads about the economy. She had the most important ads about the economy talking about price gouging. Now, Donald Trump sounds like Kamala Harris today.

[Wesley Morris]

Right?

[Jessica Tarlov]

Right. The way he's saying a Walmart, don't you dare do that. Right. Or talking building, housing, et cetera. But no one cares because, you know, they were watching NFL football and they saw Charlemagne kind of losing his mind about this. And I'm curious, I actually don't know if he's spoken about the impact of it. That would be interesting to talk to him about.

[Wesley Morris]

I've never heard him bring it up. He's on to some other things now.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Yes, he's. He's definitely on to other things. But, you know, it's weird. We all play a role, right? In the overarching narrative of what happened. But to be the central figure in the most pivotal ad of a national election in the wrong. In the direction you don't want it to go in. Because Charlemagne wanted Kamala to win. That must be intense.

[Wesley Morris]

I don't know. This is actually a great. You should.

[Jessica Tarlov]

I mean, we had him on early on. I'll ask him to come back.

[Wesley Morris]

Just get him to come back. Because I feel like this is a great subject for the two of you. And Scott, when. Hi, Scott. When Scott's back to ask him about. I just think that. I don't know. I hadn't thought about it that way, how he might be feeling. And I'm sorry about that, Charlamagne, but you've made me wonder now, Jesse, how this man might be feeling about his role. But it was effective. It was right.

[Jessica Tarlov]

And that's the problem with how fast culture moves, is that it just getting it out there. Like, you see this. I. I don't know if you're on Twitter or X or you've absconded to blue or pastures or you just don't care.

[Wesley Morris]

I don't do anything anymore.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Nothing.

[Wesley Morris]

Nothing.

[Jessica Tarlov]

So I still hang out on X because I. I need to for work. Like, the news cycle is driven on there. And this is an administration. I'm an Elon Musk. Yes, I'm on a reconnaissance mission, but not wearing a camo hat as I do it. But I see blatant clickbait, blatant lies all the time. And once the impressions are made and you see that count go, you know, a million views, 2 million views, 3 million. I saw one the other day that had 14 million views. That was completely inaccurate. It just doesn't matter. And there are also no repercussions for when that happens.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, and now there never will be because. Well, part, you know, earlier. And I didn't respond to this because it's just too true to warrant response, which is that you observe that we were kind of numb come Inauguration Day 2025, versus how like the day after the election in 2016, where it was a lot of emotional outpouring and upheaval. But part of it is, I think we just now accept that we don't live in a world where there can be a kind of extralegal, extra Jurisprudential justice, which is, I think, why people are so ex. Huh. Excited is not the right word. But, like, passionately relieved that the courts for now are working, you know, in terms of issuing these injunctions and, like, in these dissents and in issuing these, these, these judgments really sort of calling the Trump administration out for, you know, any number of things that would never have flown before him. I mean, they didn't have standing before, and they really don't have standing now. But now these judges are being like, come on. I mean, what do you, what are we doing here?

[Jessica Tarlov]

Right?

[Wesley Morris]

This is an insult to the entire history of the system and to me as the person you've. Who has now got to make this decision. I think that, like, civilian truth telling, civilian mind changing, civilian empathy, individual people's ability to sort of say to a neighbor, you know, I got 12 spreadsheets right here, and none of what you are saying. I read your Facebook post earlier. It's just not true. I mean, can we, can, can you correct it? Can you, like.

[Jessica Tarlov]

But that's the fatigue. That's what I'm talking about. Because I, I mean, I love being a Tracy flick, and I, I'm kind of done with the spreadsheets. Like, I do it at work, and then I just want to have a cocktail. Right. And it's not that fun to have to sit there and say, no. Well, that's not actually what happened.

[Wesley Morris]

Jesse. Jesse. But you do it every day. Yeah, but I mean, that is part of what you're drawn into, right?

[Jessica Tarlov]

100%. But I think what you're speaking to, and this is reflected in the voting patterns, is that our circle got a lot more politically diverse than it used to be, even if it's just our communities that we're part of because of immutable characteristics. I'm not necessarily like your, your close friend.

[Wesley Morris]

You're saying New York is a lot redder than in, Chicago's a lot redder than. And Philadelphia's a lot redder.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Or just there are a lot more Latinos voting for Donald Trump. There are more black men voting for Donald Trump. There are even more white women voting for Donald Trump. There are even more women of color. I mean, you've, I've seen the charts out of the times, right, with the, the red arrows going in one direction and blue arrows going in the other direction. And there are only like 12 blue arrows, and they're all in the Atlanta metro area. So yay, Jon Ossoff, I hope you know, but, but like half of them. Yeah. It's tiny pockets, right. That this is happening in. And I think that liberally minded people are doing a good job of acknowledging that this has happened. But the full reckoning of what this means is going to take years. And I'm worried, at least from a political standpoint, that Democrats could do well in the midterms, because historically, that's what happens. Right. And it's a referendum of the party in power and will band aid over the real wounds that we have by saying, well, the midterms went well. And that's kind of what happened with the 2022 midterms as well. We had the Dobbs decision, and everybody turned out right, because that's something very difficult to grapple with, you know, that your daughter has less rights than your mother had like that. You know, that's. That's a real mind bender. But from the political strategy point of view, that's something that really concerns me.

[Wesley Morris]

I have a question for you. Well, first, I want to respond to midterm midterm itis, which I have no patience for. I'll vote in a midterm. Yeah, but they don't like. On your way to bringing up the midterms, you mentioned that we aren't really dealing with the actual thing that we need to be dealing with, and we have not been dealing with the actual thing this whole time. We're talking about four centuries of not dealing with the actual thing. We are so predisposed to keep moving on, even as we endorse the policies, politics, and culture of a person who really is just interested in dragging us back. And I really. I mean, I. I find it really fascinating, this turn to the midterms every time something goes wrong for somebody in this country politically, you know, with. With respect to the. The election, the presidential election, because it tells me that we are never really going to be able to sit with and reckon with what is actually happening to us as a people, as a nation, what has been happening to us for several centuries. We need not reckoning, but reconciliation. And it can take any number of forms. It can involve any number of constituencies, but we've never really sat down. And the Democrats. You can see the Democrats doing this right now as they dip a toe into reconciliation, as they consider what might have gone wrong in the 2024 presidential election, which, by the way, I think history is actually going to look back on in a somewhat favorable way with respect to Harris, because I think that the facts are what they were, but culture is what changes. Right. You'll always be able to look back on her saying, democracy is at stake. Also, no tax on tips. Here's my affordable housing plan. We're gonna build, build, build. I mean, she was doing. I don't know what she could have done that would have Been different. But we have hung it on a cultural issue, right? What are people saying that Kamala Harris did wrong? She didn't go on Joe Rogan. That's, that is. I mean, I don't know if that's ultimately what people are going to say tanked it for. But that is the, that is a realm, that is a zone in which it gets boiled down to. She just didn't want to do Rogan.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Right. And she went on the View and said she wouldn't do anything different than Joe Biden.

[Wesley Morris]

Also didn't help. Those are the two, but another cultural zone, right?

[Jessica Tarlov]

100%.

[Wesley Morris]

I just don't know that we are really ready to sit in our shit, to look at all of the things that have led us to any number of points throughout the history of this country and say, whoa, we might want to reconsider what got us to this new precipice. I love that we have this thing called the debt ceiling, right? Because we always seem to find some new, some new jack to like get it to go even higher.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Wouldn't it be great for our apartments if we actually could all have 14 foot ceilings?

[Wesley Morris]

Like, where is this ceiling?

[Jessica Tarlov]

Nowhere.

[Wesley Morris]

Like, whose ceiling is this? What house does this ceiling, like go in? I don't understand. When I hit a ceiling, I really hit a ceiling. I have to like put some ice on my head. These people, they just burst through it. They don't care. I mean, it's just all of this stuff is so imaginary and so conceptual that there never seem to really be repercussions for the ways in which the norms are flouted or the things that should make sense to do, like fix the debt.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Also, politicians and consultants have more than nine lives, right? Like they've got better than cats. Yes. And I'm noticing this. There's a flood of write ups of what the Democratic apparatus is doing to fix it. We're spending $20 million to code switch to man or whatever, you know, however we're supposed to be talking to men.

[Wesley Morris]

Wait, what?

[Jessica Tarlov]

This write up of all of the consultants, a lot of them that advise the Biden campaign, the Harris campaign, the Hillary campaign, because we rarely see a new face unless it's coming in with kind of a renegade representative, right, who's from a different place or, you know, whoever Bernie Sanders has in his orbit, right, is an outlier to all of this. But we're spending tens of millions of dollars in consultant cash to figure out if it was really about not going on Joe Rogan and who the Joe Rogan of the left is going to be, oh, right. So we continue to flush money when the answer is always, could you please be a normal human being? Right. Like, just think about the things that matter to you. And even if your delivery is a little strange or you've got something weird about you, people generally are okay with that. I mean, if you listen to Donald Trump, it's the strangest delivery you will ever encounter. No one could even script it right. It's that bonkers.

[Wesley Morris]

Most sentences do not diagram at all.

[Jessica Tarlov]

No. You know, we are all over the map there. And people figure out what he's saying. Actually, they figure out multiple versions of what he's saying, which makes it palatable to multiple groups. But, yeah, the hard work, the reconciliation of it, I, it is not begun in earnest. And part of that is the fear, the midtermitis, that this is coming and we have to be ready for that day. And we know that talking about tax cuts for the rich versus Medicaid cuts for those that really need their health care is the winning message. Republicans have been out to take away health care for decades. That never changes. They lose on it. They continue to go for it. But does that change the calculus of where we're going as political parties or as a country? Absolutely not.

[Wesley Morris]

I don't think it changed. No, I don't think so. But I also think that, like, people really want the thing that Donald Trump is offering, up to a point. Right. You know, I mean, I think a lot about the opportunity that he had during the pandemic. And the thing that I was most fascinated to see was the way he just does not understand people. Like, he understands audiences, but he doesn't understand people. And I think people didn't want to be an audience during the pandemic. They wanted to feel like people, and they wanted a leader who was going to talk to them like people. And I think that if he had just come out and, like, been Bill Clinton or, you know, Jimmy Carter, somebody who's just really good at empathizing, and just said, look, I mean, you guys, I got this thing too, and it sucks.

[Jessica Tarlov]

And it almost killed me.

[Wesley Morris]

Right? It sucks. It's really terrible. But instead he turned it into an infomercial for ivermectin. Right. And I think the reason that he lost that election is because he couldn't do that during the pandemic. Right. If he had just been Andrew Cuomo. If he had been Andrew Cuomo, he.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Would have won just twice.

[Wesley Morris]

He would have won that election pretty soundly.

[Jessica Tarlov]

I think 100%.

[Wesley Morris]

Because at the end of the day, I don't care what people say about the economy is important. And we got it. The pocketbook issues, yeah, sure, they're important, important. But we are now so thoroughly in a culture zone that it's really about, like touching people in these intangible places that aren't their wallets or their bank accounts. It really is about these personality oriented and like interpersonal relationships. I mean, because that's the thing that Kamala Harris, you know, theoretically lacked as a candidate. Right? The. A human touch. And in lieu of that, Donald Trump had his ability to sort of communicate with mass audiences, which is as important as being able to like, look a person in their eye and like, tell them that they feel their pain. She did that a few times and it was very powerful when it worked, but it just never caught on as a skill that she had.

[Jessica Tarlov]

She was nervous. She was never not nervous. And he's, he's nerveless. Never nervous.

[Wesley Morris]

He has no nervous.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Yeah, he's nerveless. I want to ask you. So we've been talking for an hour, which doesn't surprise me because I enjoy talking to you for an hour. But we always ask at the end of interviews, what's one issue that makes you rage and one thing you think we should all calm down about?

[Wesley Morris]

I was prepared for this.

[Jessica Tarlov]

You did research.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, I know how the show works. Okay.

[Jessica Tarlov]

I appreciate that because a lot of people just stare at me and they're like, what the fuck are you talking about? And I'm like, you don't have a press person that told you that I asked this?

[Wesley Morris]

No, I'm just, I have a press person called my podcast. Yeah, I, I mean, this isn't really an issue, but, you know, I'm a big etiquette person and I live in New York City, which is a great zone to experience clashes in etiquette. And I am just going to be an old man and complain about people on escalators. Okay, it's very simple. Everybody move over. There is a side to walk and a side to stand. And if you are standing in the walking side of the escalator, somebody is going to say something to you. And every once in a while that person is going to be me. So just, I just don't know how you don't notice that people are like walking around you. Some people are on their phones they don't really see.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Not a great excuse, but yes.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, I mean, I, I experienced great rage at basic public cell phone use in general world I pull over when I need to use my phone. I'm not having a great relationship with my phone. I use it as little as humanly possible. But when I do use it and I'm out in public, I just step aside, just get out of people's way. I can't walk and text because there's phone speed. You can tell when somebody in front of you is on the phone. They're just walking at an incomprehensible stop, right? It's like, what are we doing? What speed is this? This is not fast and it's not slow. It's just, it's just phone speed. So yeah, that's, that's one.

[Jessica Tarlov]

I like it.

[Wesley Morris]

And then I want to know what do I.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Should we just calm down about everything?

[Wesley Morris]

I think, yeah, well, no, I mean, I think the Knicks people have to calm down a little bit.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Oh good. Because I had wanted to talk about the NBA with you.

[Wesley Morris]

I think that it's going to be fine one way or the other. I think we're learning something about everybody in New York City right now. I think we're learning something about this team which is that they don't have the baggage that like 75 year old Knicks fans do. You know, when they basically gave Game 1 to Indiana and in record time too. I just like, you know, just one of the most. An incredible night of sports, honestly, in all the ways that sports are great. Psychologically fascinating, culturally interesting. There was drama, there was like hip hop swag. There was history, there was just, there was so much awesomeness in that. And it was an msg.

[Jessica Tarlov]

I mean Reggie Miller on the call. Halliburton doing the choke a little prematurely and pulling it out and over time. Yeah, it was, it was an unbelievable sports night.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, it was amazing that he did it when he did it and they, and they. Because he, he just knew. I think when you're a player, I'm a big tennis person. I watch. I mean I'm, I am missing two tennis matches right now. I'm missing many test tennis matches.

[Jessica Tarlov]

This is real commitment.

[Wesley Morris]

It's Roland Garros. It started, it started two days ago, but it's just still the first round. Anyway, as a tennis fan, you get very used to opponents figuring out that the person they're playing, especially if you are playing a rival or you're playing a great player who's just having a bad day and you have figured out a way. Daniil Medvedev is the king of this, right? He would get in players, like great players, heads and like, kind of unravel them a little bit. And I think Halliburton knew when they even. That they even got to an overtime. It was proof that it's a wrap. We got this game. The calm down part is just like, even if they lose this series, this has been by far the grittiest, most impressive, most inspiring group of Knicks that this city has seen in a long time. And I know y' all want to go all the way because, you know, I'm from Philadelphia. I don't really. I have a lot of Knicks fans in my life, and they live in my heart, and they are, like, giving me cardiac arrest most nights of the week. But I just feel like this is such an important moment for the city's sports teams. I mean, the Yankees and the Mets are. I don't know. I mean, this. They look. Looks like the World Series to me. I feel like these Knicks are. If, you know, God willing, inshallah, keep the team together, like they're going to win a championship. If you can keep everybody together and bring, you know, bring in three more people, I don't know, this team can last. I think that it's going to be. Every New York is going to be fine. One way or the other is going to be fine.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Yeah, it's uplifting. And what was that? It was from decades ago when Jerry Seinfeld was saying something like, New York was finish for something, and he said, new York is never finished.

[Wesley Morris]

New York is never finished. No, never.

[Jessica Tarlov]

But we are finished, sadly.

[Wesley Morris]

Wesley, oh, my God.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Thank you so much for joining me. And you have a new podcast coming out. Do you want to plug that at all?

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, I mean, it's called Cannonball. It's a culture show where I talk to people about art and culture and stuff. Like, you know, I'd like to talk to my friend Eric, for instance, about Yankees facial hair, which is probably gonna happen at some point pretty soon.

[Jessica Tarlov]

I think you're definitely the only person to have won a Pulitzer for a piece about a mustache. Right. So facial hair is important.

[Wesley Morris]

It's important.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Yeah. No.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, I was convinced J.D. vance was gonna shave his beard off, by the way. He didn't do it.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Oh, I didn't. I wasn't even in on thinking that.

[Wesley Morris]

But I just. I'm on a real beard watch with him. Not. That is not upon everybody. Just. I'm just watching his actual beard.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time. I'm deeply appreciative. And come see the girls soon.

[Wesley Morris]

What an honor. Thank you. You're so good at your job.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Stop it. Oh, go on. I'll text you. All right. It was great to see you. Thank you.

[Wesley Morris]

Great to see you, too.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Paramount is your streaming home for the nwsl, the best women's soccer league in the world.

[Wesley Morris]

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[Jessica Tarlov]

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[Jessica Tarlov]

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[Wesley Morris]

Welcome to NWSL. Support for this show comes from WhatsApp. The personal chat on WhatsApp is a place where you share everything, from the mundane connections to the memories that mean everything. It's a place that can truly feel like it's your own. And WhatsApp makes sure everything stays protected from outside eyes, even theirs. No one, not even WhatsApp, can see or hear your personal messages. That includes personal calls, plus any documents, photos or media that you share in your personal chat. WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Visit WhatsApp.com privacy to learn more.