Republicans Confront the Epstein Files (ft. Rep. Don Bacon)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway & Jessica Tarlov

Episode: Republicans Confront the Epstein Files (ft. Rep. Don Bacon)
Date: September 5, 2025
Host: Jessica Tarlov (Vox Media Podcast Network)
Guest: Congressman Don Bacon (R-NE)

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Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation between Jessica Tarlov and Congressman Don Bacon, a self-described "raging, pragmatic conservative," as he discusses the evolution and direction of the Republican Party, critical contemporary political issues—including the Epstein files, U.S. foreign policy, Ukraine, and economic legislation—and his decision to retire from Congress. The tone is candid, respectful, and at times sharp, highlighting the tension faced by moderates in an increasingly polarized Congress.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Epstein Files & Congressional Transparency

• Epstein Files Press Conference: Tarlov opens by discussing a Capitol Hill press event, led by bipartisan Representatives, calling for Department of Justice (DOJ) files on Jeffery Epstein to be released.

  • Bacon’s Position: Supports transparency but insists on protecting victims’ identities. Believes recently passed rules granting broader investigative powers to the Judiciary Committee go further than the Ro Khanna–Massey discharge petition, expanding beyond DOJ materials (02:47–03:25).
  • Quote: “We're going to empower our Judiciary Committee to release everything they can find, more than just [the] DOJ. And it's going to release everything but the victims’ names.”
    — Don Bacon [02:47]

• Administration & GOP Willingness: Tarlov challenges Bacon on whether Speaker Johnson and other Republicans are committed to full transparency, especially with opposition from former President Trump.

  • Bacon Responds: Claims Trump’s main concern is victims’ names and reiterates support for releasing files with this protection (03:58–04:51).

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2. Russia, China, India & U.S. Foreign Policy

• Emerging Alliances: Discussion on the joint show of force by Russia, China, and India.

  • Bacon’s View: Sees these alliances as “temporary friendships based on opposition to us,” with India as the long-term concern due to its status as the world’s largest democracy (05:22–05:43).
  • Quote: “I think it’s a temporary friendship based on opposition to us.”
    — Don Bacon [05:22]

• U.S. Policy Weaknesses: Bacon is critical of President Trump’s approach to Russia, arguing for stronger, more moral U.S. messaging.

  • Quote: “We have a situation that looks like 1938, and we need a president that sees the moral right and wrong here of what’s going on with Russia versus Ukraine.”
    — Don Bacon [07:31]

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3. Ukraine, Sanctions & U.S. Leadership

• Sanctions & Aid: Bacon is emphatic about the need for secondary sanctions on Russia and continued robust support for Ukraine.

  • On GOP Reluctance: Frustrated by slow action and President Trump’s veto threats but believes it's essential to pressure the President and demonstrate U.S. commitment to democracy (08:11–09:43).
  • Strategy for Peace: Believes Ukraine must be empowered militarily so Putin recognizes he can't win, opening the door for a sustainable peace (11:48–13:08).

• Moral Clarity & U.S. Standing: Bacon laments what he sees as a lack of “moral clarity” in the current administration's Ukraine policy.

  • Quote: “I see ourselves as leader[s] of the free world and that we need allies... We should be building close relationships. That's my worldview—has a mix of idealism and realism in it.”
    — Don Bacon [09:50]

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4. Congressman Bacon's Retirement & Moderation in the GOP

• Identity as a Republican: Bacon calls himself an "old school Republican," highlighting differences with today's Trump-influenced GOP.

  • Quote: “I'm the Ronald Reagan Republican. I believe in peace through strength. I believe in free markets. I believe in alliances. I believe in free trade.”
    — Don Bacon [13:36]

• Reasons for Stepping Down: Personal/family time and frustration with Congressional dysfunction cited as primary drivers (13:36–15:40).

  • Quote: “I'm just tired of the every two year election cycle... and just tired of the two year election grind. It's primarily what drove me, but also maybe a tertiary reason is the dysfunction in the House on both sides.”
    — Don Bacon [13:36]

• Future Plans: Open to serving again if the right national security–related role arises, even in a Democratic administration if values are aligned (15:50–16:51).

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5. Legislative Voting Record: Medicaid, Reconciliation Bill & Tax Policy

• Medicaid and SNAP: Bacon explains his rationale for voting for the reconciliation bill, despite criticism from both the left and right that it would harm the poor and cut Medicaid.

  • Nuanced Defense: Advocates for targeted savings and work requirements, defends the bill as a compromise to avoid steep taxes for the middle class (19:40–22:00).
  • Quote: “A vote no was a vote to raise taxes. 20% was a vote to cut the child income tax credit in half.”
    — Don Bacon [19:40]

• Pushback & Political Risks: Tarlov presses Bacon on whether he felt threatened by Trump-aligned GOP retribution for any dissident votes. Bacon asserts he votes his conscience, recounting past opposition to party leadership (24:42–25:43).

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6. Upcoming Issues: Spending Fights, Bipartisanship & Governance

• Next Budget Battles: Bacon expects short-term continuing resolutions but hopes for a bipartisan appropriations bill to avoid ongoing “bad governance.” Encourages Republican leadership to work with Democrats (26:28–28:11).

• Farmer Concerns & Trade Policy: Stresses the urgent crisis facing Midwestern farmers and the need for new trade markets and a farm bill. Critical of both Trump’s and Biden’s approaches (28:30–29:09).

• Future of Tariffs: Believes the Supreme Court is likely to return tariff authority to Congress, requiring the executive to work with the legislature (29:22–31:14).

  • Quote: “I really chafe at the... monarchy type presidency that thinks he can do tariffs... I believe Congress, we own the spending and the revenues.”
    — Don Bacon [30:54]

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7. "Raging" Moments: What Makes Bacon Mad, What We Should Calm Down About

• Trigger Issues: Most riled by the administration’s Ukraine rhetoric and poor treatment of U.S. allies like Canada and Denmark.

  • Quote: “Never lose your temper. If you lose your temper, it’s a weakness... What gets me really mad is when the President repeatedly says, I don't understand why Ukraine decided to have this war with Russia when they're 10 times smaller. You're like, Russia did the invasion.”
    — Don Bacon [31:26]

• Overblown Debates: Contends the U.S. has made significant progress on border security and now needs thoughtful legal immigration reform for population growth. Also, says urban crime should be approached in a nonpartisan way (33:14–34:21).

  • Quote: “Our country needs legal immigration. Without it, we’re a declining population, which hurts our economy and hurts our future as a country.”
    — Don Bacon [34:08]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|------------------------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:47 | Don Bacon | "We're going to empower our Judiciary Committee to release everything they can find, more than just DOJ." | | 05:22 | Don Bacon | "It's a temporary friendship based on opposition to us." | | 07:31 | Don Bacon | "We have a situation that looks like 1938, and we need a president that sees the moral right and wrong here." | | 09:50 | Don Bacon | "We should be building close relationships. That's my worldview—has a mix of idealism and realism in it." | | 13:36 | Don Bacon | "I'm the Ronald Reagan Republican. I believe in peace through strength. I believe in free markets. I believe in alliances. I believe in free trade." | | 19:40 | Don Bacon | "A vote no was a vote to raise taxes. 20% was a vote to cut the child income tax credit in half." | | 30:54 | Don Bacon | "I really chafe at the... monarchy type presidency that thinks he can do tariffs... I believe Congress, we own the spending and the revenues." | | 31:26 | Don Bacon | "Never lose your temper. If you lose your temper, it's a weakness... What gets me really mad is when the President repeatedly says, I don't understand why Ukraine decided to have this war with Russia when they're 10 times smaller. You're like, Russia did the invasion." | | 34:08 | Don Bacon | "Our country needs legal immigration. Without it, we're a declining population, which hurts our economy and hurts our future as a country." |

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Episode Flow (Timestamps for Key Segments)

• 01:16—Intro & Epstein Files Discussion
• 04:51—Geopolitics: Russia, China, India (Summit & Alliances)
• 08:11—Ukraine Aid, Sanctions, and Moral Responsibility
• 13:08—Retirement Decision & State of the GOP
• 19:40—Reconciling GOP Voting Record, Medicaid, Tax Policy
• 24:42—Party Retribution, Voting Independence
• 26:28—Expectation for Next Budget Battles
• 28:30—Farm Bill, Trade, and Tariffs
• 31:26—Final Rants: Ukraine, Allies, and Washington Dysfunction
• 34:21—Closing Remarks

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Tone and Takeaways

The conversation is forthright, practical, and focused on substantive policy. Bacon consistently frames his views in terms of traditional Republican values, laments the party’s drift toward isolationism and nativism, and reiterates the need for bipartisan cooperation. He’s frank about the emotional toll and dysfunction of Congress, voices the frustrations of governing as a moderate, and underscores the urgent need for immigration reform, agricultural support, and moral clarity in foreign policy.

Final Note:
Jessica Tarlov closes by dubbing Bacon “radically sane”—encapsulating the episode’s running theme of moderation under pressure.

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For listeners seeking centrist insight and candid policy analysis, this episode stands out for its honest look at the GOP’s identity crisis, the challenges facing Congress, and the personal convictions of a self-described Reagan conservative in a shifting political landscape.

Transcript

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[Jessica Tarlev]

Welcome to Raging Moderates. I'm Jessica Tarlev and my guest today is Congressman Don Bacon. He's a 30 year Air Force veteran, currently in his fifth term representing Nebraska's 2nd district, a swing district. And this past June, he announced that he isn't going to be running for reelection next year. Sad to lose a sane Republican, I gotta say that. But we got into it a little bit about the reconciliation bill. The math wasn't necessarily mathing for me. We talked about support for Ukraine, what's going on with China, Russia and India. The Epstein files, everyone loves that and much more. Here's my conversation with Congressman Don Bacon. Congressman Bacon, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for joining me.

[Congressman Don Bacon]

Thank you. This raging, pragmatic conservative likes being on the show.

[Jessica Tarlev]

Oh, great. I'm thrilled to hear it. Scott was saying like, oh, you're gonna try to have another Republican. You've seen how this has been going. And I was like, no, no, no, this is a little bit different. We've got a, a Reagan conservative with an interesting story to tell about the evolution of the party. But I want to start more in the present. On Wednesday, there was a big press conference on Capitol Hill led by Congressman Ro Khanna and Thomas Massie with 10 of the Epstein survivors. And they were what had happened to them and their interest in getting all of the DOJ files on Epstein released. You had gone on record a couple months ago saying that you thought that there should be more transparency. Are you going to be signing on to the discharge petition to get those files released.

[Congressman Don Bacon]

We voted on a rules bill today that I think will do more than what the discharge petition will do. So basically we've directed the Judiciary Committee to do a full investigation and release everything but the victim's names. So we should protect the victim's names. And it's going to be broader than what materials at doj. It's going to go to other parts of government. So I'm going to take the Speaker's word at this. So bottom line is we're going to empower our Judiciary Committee to release everything they can find, more than just doj. And that's what the discharge petition has on there. And it's going to release everything but the victim's names.

[Jessica Tarlev]

Okay, what would you say in terms of pushback? That Mike Johnson talks a big game and said like Ghislaine Maxwell should actually have had a life sentence, that I think 20 years was even too light. But Mike Johnson is also the same person that recessed Congress a day early because he didn't want to have to release the Epstein files. And Republican led committees haven't necessarily been the most forthcoming and doing things that President Trump is not interested in. And it is very clear that the President does not want these files out there. He even today called it a hoax again.

[Congressman Don Bacon]

Well, what I've heard behind closed doors is the President's worried about the victims names. And so that's our commitment to release everything but the victim's names. I think that's appropriate. And the bill that we vote on today, it's in a rules bill, goes beyond what the bill that Massey wants to do and Ro Khanna, by the way, both my friends. But what we vote on today is going to go beyond that. And I tend to want to support the speaker when he's giving me a good option. I think it's a good option here. We're going to have a more broader, I think a more transparent end product. There's other things I would like to do discharge petitions on like Ukraine tariffs and things like that. I've been very sparing on my use of discharge petitions. I think for good reason. I'm going to save my silver bullets for things that fire me up more and that's tariffs and lack of secondary sanctions in support of Ukraine.

[Jessica Tarlev]

Okay, well that's a good opportunity to segue to something that you are more interested or more passionate about. Obviously. A couple weeks ago we had the summit in Alaska with President Trump, Vladimir Putin. And then this week we have been seeing a kind of show of Force with Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping and Prime Minister Modi of India together. Were you watching the military parade that they put on on Wednesday?

[Congressman Don Bacon]

I read about it, but I didn't watch it.

[Jessica Tarlev]

That's what I meant. Like, were you absorbing it?

[Congressman Don Bacon]

I was absorbing it. I was looking at it. And you know, it's an interesting time in our history where you got Russia, China and India aligning. And they're not natural allies. India and Russia have been, but Russia and China are not. Neither is China and India. So I think it's a temporary friendship based on opposition to us.

[Jessica Tarlev]

What do you think that we did wrong to drive them into each other's arms at this level? And do you think that having the summit a couple weeks ago played any role in that?

[Congressman Don Bacon]

I don't think that the summit with Putin fed into it. However, I don't mind Russia and China working together because they're both our adversaries. Right. They both oppose us. And what bothers me about this administration, they've had a very blind spot towards Putin. And I would want a president, I would like President Trump to be more forceful against President Putin. Here's a guy that's murdered all of his rivals. He's invaded Ukraine, he's invaded also Georgia. He's threatening his neighbors. And the invasion of Ukraine. There's no other way to frame it. It's a international crime. It's against the rule of law. They're committing more crimes every day. And I'd like to have our president talking more like that. Right. I don't mind the president being firm against China. I mean, what they're doing with the Uyghurs, Tibetans are wrong. They're the pacing long term threat of our country. Neither one of our democracies, neither one are free markets. They're police states. Now, it does concern me about India. That's the largest democracy in the world. They should be on our side. However, I think it's all right to speak up and say, why are you, Prime Minister Modi, helping prop up Russia's economy while they're invading Ukraine? I would like to think that a democracy would see the morality of this and be against the Russians or at least find ways to oppose their behavior with Ukraine. So my concern is that President Trump has done very little to stand up, at least against Russia, but China may be a little better with what he has said. And so that's probably my biggest concern right now. We have a situation that looks like 1938, and we need a president that sees the moral right and wrong here of what's going on with Russia versus Ukraine. Instead we got a president that treats them both like equals and he's trying to referee, but no one's a victim and one's the invader. Why would Ukraine start a war with a country ten times its size? That really angers me because it's like a very ignorant statement with Russia invading Ukraine. So that's really more my, my anger there. I guess if I was in charge, I would anticipate Russia and China would be saying, hey, Don Bacon, don't like either one of us, let's work together. But they're both our adversaries, the way I look at it.

[Jessica Tarlev]

Well, you mentioned this and it's explored every time there is a meeting either with Zelensky or with Putin, that we should have steeper sanctions against Russia. And a few people in the Republican caucus, yourself included, the Lindsey Graham's of the world, stand up and say, yes, yes, let's do that. And then it always gets punted down the road. Do you think that this show of unity in China, you know, Donald Trump has posted saying they're all conspiring against him, which is his favorite thing to say. But it's very clear that he understands that these are not teammates in all of this. Do you think that that might spur us being closer to actually implementing some of those harsher sanctions?

[Congressman Don Bacon]

You know, we're so tired. Many of us are. The two more weeks thing, it's a, unfortunately, it sort of defines President Trump's policy when it comes to Russia. And I support the secondary sanctions and I'm on that legislation. And frankly, I, I'm going to support that for a discharge petition. I've been talking about it. Who wants to submit it, Maybe I should do it. But we're talking about it and somebody says, well, why do it? Because the President's going to veto it right now. Well, it's all right. I want to put pressure on the President to stand up against Putin and be a more vocal ally of Ukraine. Ukraine is on the side of freedom, free markets, the rule of law. We should be on that side. So I'm a big supporter of the secondary sanctions. I'm not sure why the President has drug his feet on it. It doesn't make sense, frankly. His entire policy on Russia does not make sense to me.

[Jessica Tarlev]

Well, don't you think that he just believes that he's going to be the one who magically is able to get a deal at some point?

[Congressman Don Bacon]

Maybe, but I think he. There's three or Four different possible motives, and it's hard for me to know which one it may be. I think he has more of a worldview, and I know the people around him have this. I get sort of mixed signals from President Trump himself, but I. Okay, I see ourselves as leader of the free world and that we need allies and we should be on the side of freedom, democracy, free markets, rule of law, and we have the biggest economy, biggest military on the free world. So we gotta be leaders and we should be building close relationships. That's my worldview. Has a mix of idealism and realism in it. I see the President's worldview as more just total realism. And that you have three superpowers, Russia, China, United States, and that he sees world relationships between superpowers. Right. And that's how it comes across. If it's not him, you surely get that from the vice President and some of the guys around him there. So I'm not sure what really motivates him. I think you're right. You'd like to be the big deal maker here, but we don't want a bad deal. A bad deal is worse than no deal for Ukraine. We don't want a Sudetenland of 1938 where we force a friendly country to give up territory for so called peace with Germany, in this case Russia, and then Germany goes in and takes Czechoslovakia within the year and then starts World War II by invading Poland. I see that we're at 1938 right now. And when the President says, yeah, we've got to swap land, he's really saying, Ukraine's got to give up land.

[Jessica Tarlev]

Give up land.

[Congressman Don Bacon]

I don't like that. It's not right. Why reward an invasion? Why reward war crimes? So I see this as a right and wrong, and I don't know that the President sees it versus a right versus wrong.

[Jessica Tarlev]

Is there any end then? Because it's clear Zelensky is willing to make some compromises, but not to go as far as Putin wants. He's never changed any of his demands.

[Congressman Don Bacon]

Right.

[Jessica Tarlev]

And you know, our NATO allies are going to back up Ukraine as long as that takes. But how do you see there being any resolution?

[Congressman Don Bacon]

Well, if Ukraine's willing to make an agreement and there is some land transfer, I would support Ukraine. I mean, this is. Ultimately, they're the victim. They're willing to make an agreement. I wouldn't stand in a way with that. I wouldn't tell them no, that doesn't make sense. However, I don't anticipate Ukraine giving up any land Unless there's security guarantees involving NATO or United States in particular. And I would support that. I opposed Ukraine entering NATO prior to the invasion. I thought, why are we trying to antagonize Russia? But Russia invaded anyway, and then they try to blame NATO for it, but really, Ukraine always wanted to be a NATO because they know the threat of Russia, just like the Baltics, Poland, Romania before that. So I would support Ukraine's decision for peace if they need to make compromises. But they're going to need security guarantees. If that happens. How does this end? We give Ukraine the weapons they need into the quantity and quality that they need, and we do secondary sanctions, and we play hardball against Putin. He's got to realize he cannot win. The day that he realizes he cannot win, he'll change his calculus. But right now, he thinks he can wait us out. He sees weakness in President Trump. He saw weakness of President Biden, and he thinks he can wear Zelensky down. We got to give Zelensky the wherewithal so that Putin knows he can't wear him down.

[Jessica Tarlev]

Listening to you, it seems quite clear that you are a different kind of Republican with what the modern GOP looks like. Can you talk about your decision to retire, which was surprising to a lot of people. Your, your district has been trending blue. Went for Biden in 2020, Harris in 2024. You're like that blue dot in in the midst of the sea of red. But what made you decide that this was the time to leave?

[Congressman Don Bacon]

Well, before I answer that, I'm the old school Republican. I've never changed. I'm the Ronald Reagan Republican. I believe in peace through strength. I believe in free markets. I believe in alliances. I believe in free trade. These are all things that the Republican Party has believed in since World War II. The current trend in our party is to be the 1930s Republicans, they believed in protectionism, isolationism. They believed in price controls. They were nativists. They didn't like legal immigration. And a lot of our parties going back to the 1930s, that failed the Republican Party and failed America. And so we learned from that. We became the post World War II Republicans. And that's what I am. And I have not changed. And now, why did I decide to not run again? Well, I did five terms and so 10 years, and they were all tough races, even though I, you know, elections were always the number one target for the Democrats. You know, we came out on top 2018, where we lost 41 seats. We ended up winning by two, and we outperformed the average Republican by eight points, by the way. That cycle. The reason I wanted to retire was I thought 10 years was enough. I did 30 years in the Air Force, now 10 years here. I'd like to come home at night. I do four nights a week in D.C. three nights in Omaha. You know, I'm been married 41 years, got four kids. Three of them live within 15 minutes of my house. Eight grandkids. So I'd like to do a little more of that. And frankly, I'm just tired of the every two year election cycle, you know, between family and just tired of the two year election grind. It's primarily what drove me, but also maybe a tertiary reason is the dysfunction in the House on both sides. I don't know, just some of the lack of teamwork, the lack of courtesy, the lack of decency. It's like I lost my appetite for wanting to be a part of it. I think the role of Speaker Johnson, that man never loses his temper. He's decent to everybody. But you look around him, what goes on. I wasn't really excited about doing it for two more years, you know, but in the end, I want to get home hopefully every night when I'm in omaha.

[Jessica Tarlev]

You're only 62 years old, so is there a third political act in another way on deck for you or you think you'll really be picking grandkids up from school?

[Congressman Don Bacon]

Well, if I had my way, I'd love to be part of an administration down the road, whether it's on the defense side or intelligence side or State Department side. I like national security. You know, I served in NATO. I served in the Far east, been in the Middle east four times when I was in the Air Force. My favorite thing to talk about is national security. So I would hope to have a spot somewhere down the road if God opens up that door, I would love to do that. I don't know that my wife agrees with that part though, just to be candid about it. So I hope over the next two to four years or three years that I can support national candidates that I like. I was a Nikki Haley fan last cycle. I like Governor Yonkin from Virginia. There's candidates that I think fit the more Reagan mold and I would like to help them out and be part of their teams in the meanwhile. I'd also like to make some money back home and come home at night, but I'd like to continue serving our country. It's going to have to be outside of Congress for me to serve.

[Jessica Tarlev]

Would you serve in a Democratic administration. If it was the right kind of president.

[Congressman Don Bacon]

If it's the right kind of president. And I felt like I could not compromise my values. Yes. All right.

[Jessica Tarlev]

Don Bacon and a President Shapiro administration down the line. We're going to take a quick break. Stay with us.

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[Jessica Tarlev]

Welcome back. I wanted to talk to you a bit about your votes because I mentioned in the introduction, as a liberal living in a conservative media world, I'm always looking for the rare conservative that is saying something that's pushing back against the administration. And you've given me a good amount of fodder and I thank you for that. You've made some of my time a little bit easier on the five.

[Congressman Don Bacon]

I've given the far right bloggers a lot of fodder too.

[Jessica Tarlev]

It's very strange. Everybody loves you, but also everybody hates you, which is such a weird place to be in the national discourse. When I told a bunch of my Democratic friends on the Hill that I was having you on. Everyone. Oh, love Don. Everyone loves Don. We're going to miss Don so much. But also why did Don vote for the reconciliation bill? So you were out there saying this is going to cut Medicaid, millions of people are going to lose their health insurance. It sure seemed like you were going to be a no. And then you were magically a yes. How did that happen?

[Congressman Don Bacon]

Well, I think a little bit what I said was mischaracterized. About a month or two months before our vote, I said that I could support, I got to go back and get my memory banks here when it came to Medicaid that I could support work requirements for able bodied adults without young children. And that was like a significant savings. That alone. Also those who are not qualified to be in Medicaid, but we haven't done an audit of the roles since COVID So if you earn too much money, you should be on Medicaid. And I also said if you were illegally here. So those are the three things I put out there. Also if you're enrolled in two different states. So I said those four things I could accept, which was about a 500, $600 billion savings. I said I could support that. But if it's beyond that, I would be very hard pressed. You'd have to convince me that it's not hurting the person who actually needs it. So that became a red line, this 500, $600 billion. But really that was my statement to the media. These are the four areas I can support. Beyond that, you're going to have to convince me doesn't hurt individuals. And what passed the House was that I actually my position became the House position. Believe it or not. You wouldn't have thought that when I first said it, I had the speaker contacted me. The two White House officials came to my office the day I said it to the media. But what we passed out of the House was exactly that. Now the Senate added a little bit more and I think that that made the bill worse a lot more. Now they took from 6% to 3% and I think it took the bill backwards in my view. But from my vantage point, I got away a bill and its totality. I couldn't vote for a bill that was going to be a 20% tax increase. I wanted to vote for this bill. So I tried my hardest to get the best compromise that I could on Medicaid and SNAP and a few other areas. And I was able to move the ball in some areas. But in the end, a vote no was a vote to raise taxes. 20% was a vote to cut the child income tax credit in half. So There was a lot of other things in the bill. Like for example, we're going to modernize our air traffic control system. We were going to plus up the military by $150 billion. Now we're spending the record low on defense per GDP going back to 1940. And if we're gonna be a world superpower, it's not enough. So I would just say there's a lot of good things in this bill too.

[Jessica Tarlev]

But I don't think, I mean, even just today, the GOP conference was having a meeting with Tony Fabrizio about the need for a rebrand because the American public knows that this isn't a good bill. And I don't doubt your intentions and I understand that how you thought it was going to come through the Senate is a bit different. But the reality of what this does to the American public, and especially the poor American public, is, is devastating. And that's why you even have people like Josh Hawley bringing his own bill to try to get Medicaid coverage back for people. And you say everyone's going to have this huge tax increase, $2,400 a year extra for our poorest Americans while our richest Americans are getting a tax cut. And that is the message that the American public has heard loud and clear.

[Congressman Don Bacon]

Actually, this bill would have, if we wouldn't have voted for it, the average American, the average middle class American. But I got a 20% tax increase and that's a fact. This is from the irs Suffram some right wing or left wing commentators that have an ax to grind. So if I would have voted no. 1, this bill would have gone down and the average person making $60,000 a year is going to pay 20% more taxes. There would have been a bigger outcry. So I.

[Jessica Tarlev]

So you don't regret the vote?

[Congressman Don Bacon]

No, I don't regret the vote. Now I wish the Senate would have stuck with the House version of the Medicaid thing. I think we had a better, better bill there. But I got a way of building its totality. And I do believe if, if we look, if we go down a year or two and we see that the money is too little going to our hospitals, we have the ability to correct that and add more money to the hospitals if it, you know, because rural.

[Jessica Tarlev]

Hospitals are already shutting down and they're citing.

[Congressman Don Bacon]

Well, they were shutting down before the bill even passed. Right, but we did. Plus up 50 billion for, for hospitals. And if it needs to be more, we can do that. But I'm not going to raise taxes on the average American, we're not talking the richest of the ritual. And getting this, the middle class workers got a 20% tax cut in 2017 that was going to go away. The child tax credit was going to be cut in half if we didn't vote for this. And there's a lot of other things, goodies in the bill, but those are the two big ones.

[Jessica Tarlev]

Okay, we could go back and forth all day on this one. But I'm curious by extension then, you know, obviously you're defending your choice and voting for it. I understand it's an enormous bill and arguably it could have been split up into a bunch of smaller bills and that might have been better for the future of the country. But did you feel like there would be retribution coming your way if you voted against it? Because there have been a number of members of the Republican Party who have spoken out about that, that Donald Trump and his minions are going to come for you if you don't get in line like Lisa Murkowski, Thom Tillis leaving the Senate.

[Congressman Don Bacon]

You know, I had President Trump run against me in my district in 2022, and I've taken votes on infrastructure, you know, pro infrastructure. I voted for, I voted to certify the election despite the threats. Yeah, I've done a lot of votes. I vote my conscience. I didn't vote for a speaker that I thought was not the right choice. I took a lot of threats for that and prevailed in the end. Our district knows that. I try to be honest, you know, is this bill perfect? I mean, a lot of people want to say it's the perfect bill. I don't. I think the Senate took it backwards on Medicaid. However, there's so much good stuff in this bill. We're going to, we're going to modernize our air traffic control for the first time in generations. You never hear that right. There's a lot of things that we're doing in this bill that has a lot of good in the end. And I do think if there's damage done on the hospital side, we have a chance to fix it if we see it go in the wrong direction. But that said, I don't say it's 100 or a zero. Sometimes you gotta vote for a bill that's an 80. You may think it's a 40, I don't know.

[Jessica Tarlev]

I think it's way less than a 40. But we're being friends.

[Congressman Don Bacon]

I protected you from getting a tax increase there, Jesse.

[Jessica Tarlev]

Okay? I don't wanna waste all our valuable time on this but modernizing air traffic control is important. I live in New York City and no one will go to Newark Airport anymore, including Secretary Duffy. So obviously something needs to be about safety in the skies. The next crisis that's coming our way is the spending fight. What do you expect that the next month looks like? Do you think there's any role for bipartisanship in this? I imagine a Thomas Massie is going to say, you know, I'm not going to vote for that. Maybe you'll need a Democrat or two. Do you think Republicans would be interested in any sort of deal?

[Congressman Don Bacon]

Well, I think we should be. We have to get a next year's budget and unfortunately, the last two years we've been doing continuing resolutions and then modifying it. And of course we did the reconciliation bill that added money in certain areas. But I think a CR is the wrong way to go. So we got three options. We're going to have a shutdown, we're going to do a CR or we're going to do an appropriations bill. Most people think we're going to have a short term CR for a month, two months, and then hopefully get an appropriations bill that will actually update our spending and not lock us in the things that we agreed to two or three years ago. I mean, it's hard to have new starts when you do a cr. So to do that, though, we're going to have to have bipartisanship. We have Republicans are never going to vote for a budget and you're going to have at least 60 senators in the Senate to pass this. That means you got to have some Democrats if you're going to do an appropriations bill. So I hope that our leadership on the Republican side works with the Democrats. They're going to want something and we're going to give them stuff, and it's got to be a give and take. But I want to see an appropriations bill get passed and update all of our spending and all 12 appropriations bills. And like I already mentioned, we've gone two years stagnant and that's not good. That's not a good way to run our country. Now the Democrats are going to have to hopefully swallow their pride a little bit because of the reconciliation bill and a few things that the president does. They don't want to meet us anywhere on the table with any of this. And if they hold true 100% on that, we'll have a shutdown. So hopefully we can find some that will say, okay, let's do some give and take and let's get an appropriations bill. As a minimum, we got to do a cr, But I'd hate to see us do that for a third year in a row. I think it's bad governance, it's bad for our military, bad for all across our government. Doing a continuing resolution for the third time.

[Jessica Tarlev]

Yeah, we seem to kind of live by that system. I want to kind of take a look at before your term is over, what are your priorities? What do you hope to get done? Obviously, supporting Ukraine is atop that list, especially as an Air Force veteran. But what do you have your eyes on?

[Congressman Don Bacon]

You know, our farmers are really struggling in the Midwest, and I know some people want to make it partisan either way. Our farmers have been struggling for two years. Commodity prices have been down. We've lost markets. I think it started under President Trump. 45. It got worse under Biden, and it's getting worse now. So right now, our average farmer is losing 80 cents on every bushel of corn. And so there's a crisis in the Midwest. A farm bill will help with that. We got to expand trade markets, and it's got to be immediate. We need immediate markets for corn and soybeans if we're going to save some farmers in Illinois or Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas and things like that.

[Jessica Tarlev]

What do you think the future of President Trump's tariffs are now that they're tied up in the court system? Obviously, they can stay in place until it gets eventually to the Supreme Court. But what is your expectation on how that ruling will go?

[Congressman Don Bacon]

I think two to one odds, the Supreme Court will rule against the president. And why do I say that? And I felt this way from the beginning. If you look back at my statements, Article 1 is pretty clear that Congress has the power of taxes and tariffs and all the revenues that the government brings in. Now, there has been three bills passed over the last century that gave the President emergency powers. But I've always felt like what he's doing here is not emergency powers, it's changes in policy. And the Constitution gives tax policy to the Congress. And the three laws that we passed over the last century was not policy, it was emergency. And I feel like he's abusing this emergency clause that we gave them. Now, when you do tariffs against 80 countries, that's policy. That's not emergency, in my view, which means. So I think the Supreme Court will rule in our favor. And the appeals court showed it was. I think it was a 7:4 decision. And it read as if I wrote it. Frankly, I believe what they wrote was right and accurate. And if this happens, what that means is the President's got to work with Congress. He's going to come in and say, I think we need tariffs on China for these reasons. A lot of Democrats and Republicans would support him on a trade policy that's a little tougher on China because they've been unfair. There may be some things we should do with India if they're propping up Russia's economy. Let's have that discussion. But we got to vote on it. And I really chafe at the, I don't know what you want to call it, a monarchical or monarchy type presidency that thinks he can do tariffs. Also do a pocket veto or pocket, whatever you call it. Rescissions.

[Jessica Tarlev]

Yeah.

[Congressman Don Bacon]

Rescissions. Yeah. I don't believe any of that's constitutional. I believe Congress, we own the spending and the revenues. The President's supposed to execute them. And so I anticipate that the Supreme Court will rule back up the appeals court and then the President's going to work with Congress and that's the way it was meant to be.

[Jessica Tarlev]

Good luck with that. There's going to be some angry truth socials about Congressman Don Bacon after that comes down. So what's one thing that makes you rage and one thing that you think we should all calm down about?

[Congressman Don Bacon]

Well, I've been most angry about the Ukraine thing. First of all, I've learned in the Air Force and my time in Congress, 40 years total, never lose your temper. If you lose your temper, it's a weakness. So I don't rage. But what gets me really mad is when the President repeatedly says, I don't understand why Ukraine decided to have this war with Russia when they're 10 times smaller. You're like, Russia did the invasion. And that has been a trigger for me because it just goes against history and it's dishonest. Frankly, I wish there was more moral clarity on Ukraine. So I think that that's one thing that bothers me. I was also, I was angered about how we treated Canada, Denmark and Greenland. We treated them not like allies, not like our friends, but second class countries. And for what reason? What benefit did it give us or them? All it did is make these countries who are friends mad at us. And I just want some little wisdom when it comes to our foreign affairs and national security and, and some of the stuff, it doesn't make sense. It's crazy. Now, on what do I think's maybe exaggerated or blown over? Well, I don't know if it's been exaggerated or not. I think the President could surely do better on this, but I think we should acknowledge that crime in our big cities is wrong. You look at all the crime in the world of major cities all over the world. Why are our cities so bad? So I would encourage the president to sit down with the mayors and the governors and come up with a plan. I don't think it's setting the guard to Chicago or St. Louis. Maybe it's all right for Washington being as a federal city, but we got to realize there is something wrong. It should be a Republican or Democrat issue. It should be American issue. You know, Chicago has six times more violent crime than Omaha per 100,000 people. And I think D.C. is about the same. There's a lot of innocent people being killed here. So I wish we could do this in a not a partisan way. Let's sit at the table with the governors, even Democrat, governor, Republican president, Democrat mayors, for the most part, and come up with a plan. Nobody wants this high crime. We should be able to figure out ways to work together on this, and it should not be a partisan issue. Another thing I think is overblown is the immigration policies we have now that we fixed the border. And I would say the president should declare victory. We went from 12,000 a day to zero, essentially. Now it's time to make an immigration policy that opens up the doors for legal immigration. Our country needs legal immigration. Without it, we're a declining population, which hurts our economy and hurts our future as a country. We need to have a, you know, let's say a slight population growth is how you maintain a strong economy. So I think it's the time now for the president is to sit down and figure out we're going with Democrats and Republicans. How can we reform our legal immigration and open up the doors? Not fully, but at least more than what it is right now. It's too hard to come here. That's why so many people come here illegally.

[Jessica Tarlev]

Congressman Don Bacon, you are far too sane for your party.

[Congressman Don Bacon]

Radically sane.

[Jessica Tarlev]

Radically sane. I like it. Raging moderate has radically sane on. It was a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much for your time.

[Congressman Don Bacon]

Thank you.