The MAGA Civil War Begins

Summary

Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov

Episode: The MAGA Civil War Begins

Date: November 19, 2025
Podcast Network: Vox Media Podcast Network

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Main Theme

In this episode, Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov dive into the escalating rift within the MAGA movement and the broader Republican Party, explore the emerging power struggle over Chuck Schumer’s future, and react to Michelle Obama’s candid remarks on America’s readiness for a female president. The discussion is rooted in a centrist perspective, pinballing between political strategy, policy rifts, and the future of both parties as the 2028 election cycle looms.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. The MAGA Civil War: Fractures and Fallout

[02:19 - 20:45]

• Summary:
  Scott and Jess dissect the very visible internal feuds tearing through MAGA, from Trump’s eroding control, high-profile betrayals, to splinters over policy and conspiracy theories. The conversation highlights the transition from MAGA as a Trump cult to a broader, contested movement.

• Key Segments:

  • Marjorie Taylor Greene Goes Rogue: MTG publicly challenges Trump—unprecedently for a “MAGA acolyte.”

    • Scott: “She's firing shots across his bow...there might be political opportunity in directly taking on the President’s idea, specifically around Epstein.” (05:02)
    • Jess: “She still has the kook in her, right...It will be interesting to see how he deals with the caucus post release of the [Epstein] files.” (06:12)

  • “The MAGA Breakup Stool” – Jess’ Analysis:
    Jess introduces a “three-legged stool” analogy for the unraveling MAGA coalition:

    1. Epstein Files/Conspiracy Theories (MTG crowd and some normies)
    2. Policy Fractures (Tariffs, H1B visas, immigration overreach)
    3. The Israel Divide (Battle for ‘America First’ and right-wing identity, accelerated by media figures and extreme influencers)
    • Jess: “Then you have the third stool, which I think is at least the most salacious...the fight over Israel, kind of the battle for the soul of the America First aspect of the party.” (09:31)

  • The Influence of Far-right and Far-left Extremism:

    • Scott: “When you go to the extremes, they become more and more similar...the horseshoe thing. The far left and the far right share anti-Semitic views.” (11:29)

• Notable Quote:

  • Scott: “If conspiracy was a person, it would have [Marjorie Taylor Greene’s] haircut... She has the energy of a woman who shows up to Costco with a, you know, demanding to return a rotisserie chicken that's already half eaten.” (13:34)

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2. Who Leads Post-Trump? Potentials and Power Markets

[13:59 - 17:26]

• Summary:
  Examining betting markets and political energy, they assess who’s likely to inherit the splintered GOP. The numbers, especially for JD Vance, spark disbelief.

• Kalshee Market Odds:

  • JD Vance: 51%
    • Scott: "That does feel high to me… I don't think J.D. Vance has that likability." (14:32)
    • Jess: “He is completely charmless...Even his friends don’t talk about him the way they talk about Trump.” (15:13)
  • Marco Rubio: 9%
  • Ron DeSantis: 3%
  • Tucker Carlson: 3%
  • Marjorie Taylor Greene: 5%

• Leadership Style and Necessary Breaks with Extremism:

  • Scott: “Real leadership is calling out people in your own party and just saying this is not productive.” (17:26)

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3. Media’s Role in Amplifying Division

[17:26 - 20:45]

• The Tucker-Carlson/Nick Fuentes Feedback Loop:

  • Scott: “People just don't realize how powerful these podcasters are becoming...Tucker’s reaching probably 5 to 10 times the core demo.” (18:53)
  • Jess: “That’s the average viewership...By the way, folks, Jess is on a show that’s the most viewed show in all of cable news by far.” (19:05)
  • Scott: “Social media algorithms...love incendiary, controversial content, which is Latin for misinformation that is especially vile...They're creating a non-organic monster here.” (20:09)

• Memorable Analogy:

  • Scott: “Reasonable policy discussion of people are somewhere in the middle...The algorithms are like, hold my beer.” (20:37)

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4. The Battle Over Schumer’s Senate Future

[27:07 - 34:19]

• Summary:
  With Chuck Schumer deeply unpopular, speculation swirls around succession. Jess and Scott agree he’s unlikely to face a primary and is more apt to retire.

  • Jess: “I don't think he gets primaried...you are supposed to pass the torch after a great career in public service.” (27:08)
  • Scott: "Senator Schumer should take a page out of the MTV playbook...MTV has come and gone. It closed down last week. MTV is no longer a thing." (34:19)

• Who’s Next?

  • Amy Klobuchar: Both hosts’ favorite for future Democratic Senate leader.
    • Jess: “Amy Klobuchar just totally fits the bill. She’s 65. I think having someone from the Midwest is also a good thing...I like her fight, I like her smarts.” (29:02)
    • Scott: “If I were just to...support someone based on competence and policy, my choice for president would be Senator Klobuchar...I think smart needs to be the new black.” (30:01)

• Brian Schatz: Jess’s runner-up—a progressive with centrist trust.

• Electability vs. Competence: Scott struggles between supporting the most electable candidate versus the most qualified.

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5. Michelle Obama Calls Out American Sexism in Politics

[36:33 - 45:28]

• Michelle Obama’s Brutal Assessment:

  • Michelle Obama (clip): "...don't even look at me about running because you all are lying. You're not ready for a woman. You are not. So don't waste my time..." (37:11)
  • Scott: “She’s so practical and sounds like such a good parent...Right there, she just said the quiet part out loud. I think the easiest way to lose the election and then not have a female president for the next 20 or 30 years would be to run a woman again.” (37:17, 38:06)

• Stats on Women in Power:

  • Only 27% of U.S. elected officials are female, despite women outnumbering men in college graduations for decades.
  • Scott’s (satirical) theory: America may be more ready for a “Margaret Thatcher-like” Republican woman than a Democrat. (39:27)

• Jess’s Pushback & Optimism:

  • Jess: “I want to be a little glass half full...as we see more important victories for women in politics, like Abigail Spanberger and Mikey Sheryl winning. That was a rout.” (40:42, 41:50)
  • Emphasizes how Hillary Clinton’s lead in the popular vote and Kamala Harris’s campaign didn’t benefit from fair competition.

• Notable Quote:

  • Scott: “Sometimes I wonder, did we elect the wrong Obama and the wrong Clinton? I think Secretary Clinton is the great president we should have had.” (45:06)
  • Jess (on Michelle Obama): “She hates politics. She won’t give it up.” (45:28)

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Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• On MAGA Fracturing:

  • Scott: “It feels like Marjorie Taylor Greene’s...consultant is now the most seminal person in the world.” (05:00)

• On Schumer’s Longevity:

  • Scott: “When Senator Schumer entered Congress in 1981, the median price of a home was $69,000...MTV launched that year...MTV is no longer a thing.” (33:25, 34:19)

• Humorous “Leaf Blower” Metaphor:

  • Scott (on MTG): “She has the political nuance of a leaf blower at 6am...” (14:01)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• MAGA Fractures Begin: 02:19–11:04
• Jess's "Breakup Stool": 06:08–11:04
• Media Splinters and Alt-Right Influence: 13:59–20:45
• Schumer's Senate Succession: 27:07–34:19
• Michelle Obama on Sexism: 36:33–45:28
• Discussion on Women in Leadership: 39:45–45:28

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Tone and Language

Galloway’s irreverent metaphors and Jess’s wry political analysis create a sharp, often humorous centrist conversation. Both hosts blend broad political context with vivid, sometimes biting language (like “the political nuance of a leaf blower at 6am,” and candid takes on likability, electability, and character).

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Conclusion

This episode provides a lively, critical, and centrist perspective on American political fault lines. From the MAGA schism to Democratic leadership prospects, Galloway and Tarlov unpack how extremism, media platforms, and lingering sexism shape the turf for both parties. Their mix of policy depth, sharp banter, and frank assessment—especially on issues like internal party conflict, media manipulation, and American attitudes toward female leaders—make this a must-listen for anyone seeking clarity as 2028 approaches.

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(For brevity and context, ads, intros, and outro music have been omitted.)

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

And I'm Jessica Tarlev.

[B]

Jess, we have no time for banter. Our producers just had it.

[A]

You gave Cory Booker our banter type.

[B]

I did. I did. My man.

[A]

How do you think that makes me feel? But I did want to tell you something really cool.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, you've had a great week. Still everyone by notes on being a man, but I was on a panel at the Jewish Federations of North America.

[B]

And I came out ojfna.

[A]

Yes, jfna.

[B]

Jaffna. You mean Jaffna.

[A]

I do, But I got to meet four released hostages and listen to them speak. And it was one of the most incredible experiences of my life. And the bravery and the stories about one of them. The guy who works for Nvidia.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Was there with his girlfriend Noah, who got out significantly before him. But he was talking about how he used his engineering background to, like, figure out where he was and actually dig tunnels and got out at one point and then was captured again and put. He was chained to a chair for a week and beaten and like, anyway, it was an amazing experience. And that's it. Banter over.

[B]

There we go. All right, today we're talking about maga's civil war. Who could replace Schumer as leader in the Senate. And Michelle Obama has some terrorists. Tough love for Democrats. I've really come to really appreciate first lady Obama. All right, let's get into it. Let's talk about the MAGA civil war that's spilling everywhere right now, from Congress to Heritage to Tucker's studio basement. You've got Trump losing control of his own movement. Caving on the Epstein files, nuking Marjorie Taylor Greene, and watching parts of the GOP revolt on immigration, H1B visas and tariffs. Then you've got media influencers Tucker Fuentes, Megyn Kelly turning the right's worst internal fights into public content. And all of it points to the same thing. The post Trump power struggle isn't coming someday. It's already here and it's getting pretty ugly pretty fast. Jess, is this the moment when MAGA finally fractures for real? And if Trump can't control the extremists he helped create, who actually ends up leading this movement?

[A]

So, I mean, we have kind of billed things as the end of MAGA multiple times and been completely wrong about it. And I think as long as Donald Trump exists, MAGA is going to exist as well. But these fractures do feel like an indication that the Republican Party knows that Trump is a lame duck. Now, Tim Dillon, who's a podcast host and very funny, I don't know if you ever heard him, but he said, you know, this is the end of the Trump administration and the beginning of the lame duck presidency. And it's obvious to everyone, I mean, this is the first kind of couple of weeks that I've seen so much public criticism of the president. And it's on a host of different levels. I want to get into my, my three legged stool of MAGA breakup. But you see other names being floated for 2028 that aren't for the lunatics Donald Trump, but for the non lunatics. Just JD fans, you know, people returning to conversations about like, I've seen Ron DeSantis popping up, like if he could have a resurgence. People looking at Marco Rubio. A lot of that is, you know, because of the fracture over Israel, which is one of the legs of those stools. Ted Cruz positioning himself according to an axios report for 2028, as the guy who's willing to stand up to Tucker Carlson and the kind of anti Semitic or anti Semitic curious wing of the party. So it does feel like it's different in that sense and that it could be exploited even further. You know, I want to get your take and then I want to talk about my stool.

[B]

So people keep using the term lame duck. This feels, this feels like more than that. A lame duck is someone that has.

[A]

It'S like a dead duck or a.

[B]

Duck everyone's all of a sudden shooting at. It feels as if Marjorie Taylor Greene's pollster or internal consultant or strategist has been the most, is the most seminal person in the world right now. I used to think it was Epstein, but someone has said to Representative Green, look, if you not only go after the President, she's not just disagreeing with him, she's directly. She's firing shots across his bow. We've never seen kind of one of the leaders of the evangelists or the acolytes do that. A lame duck is someone who has no power, but everyone just like, treats. You, like, pop up, right? Oh, aren't you cute? But I'm not gonna take you seriously. Whereas it feels like there's mojo on behalf of the Republicans right now to actually come out against him. People have decided there might be political opportunity in directly taking on the President's idea, specifically around Epstein. And it feels like we're going to see more of it because I would argue MTG's decision to do this has paid huge dividends for her. All of a sudden, she's been thrust into the national stage as someone who is seen as reasonable.

[A]

Your thoughts reasonable? You're pushing me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think that we still have to kind of see in a post Epstein files release world what Marjorie Taylor Greene looks like. And I was thinking about her appearance on Mar and how it was like 70% kind of normal, but then she still has the kook in her, right. And a lot of that was genuine. You know how she came up through the system and she posted either this morning or last night. You know, I was six years die hard maga. And I meant all of that. And that doesn't come undone because the President tells you you can't run for Senate and you're mad about the Epstein files in totality. So I don't. I want to get. Don't wanna give her too much credit for it, but it will be interesting to see how he deals with the caucus post release of the files. So they're voting today. So recording on Tuesday morning in the House, there's reporting that it could be unanimous that all of these Republicans who had been backing Trump about this and out over their skis saying it's a Democratic hoax, now that they've backtracked because Trump has sent up the flare that everyone's got to backtrack, that they'll vote for the release, then it'll go to the Senate. I imagine it'll be unanimous or close to unanimous there. Trump's gonna have to sign it. But the anxiety within the White House, which I think is legitimate, rests on the fact that it probably won't be enough. Right. The people who want these files out there, especially the conspiracy addled brained folks on the base expect that there is a pedophile list because Pam Bondi told us that there was. Remember back in that interview, I think it was in February on Fox where she said the Epstein list was sitting on her desk. Now, I don't think that that's the case and they've been trying to do damage control since then. But there are a lot of people out there who believe that this cabal of pedophiles or pedophile adjacent folks are running the government and running the world. Want something more than just a few more documents than we've already seen. And House Oversight Chairman James Comer has said that. He said that the DOJ has turned over what they're legally allowed to turn over. Now, I don't trust Comer as far as I could throw him, but he's signaling something that I think is going to come to fruition, which is that this is going to be a dud. I don't know exactly what denomination of dud, but people are not going to get the goods that they're expecting. And I think that that will continue to roil this civil war within the party. Which brings me to my stool. So one leg of the stool is the Epstein stuff. So that's for the conspiracy theory folks like a Marjorie Taylor Greene, but then also kind of normie Republicans who are concerned that there was a pedophile with a sex trafficking ring and that he was connected not only to the President of the United States of America, but all of these powerful people. So that's like a Thomas Ma Massey, who I would not put in the conspiracy theory bucket. I mean, he's a little, you know, a little libertarian crazy, but not that crazy. Then you have the folks that are splitting with Trump on policy. So whether it's tariffs, what he said about H1B visas and that Americans aren't talented enough to do these jobs, this idea of a 50 year mortgage, which seems absolutely stupid. And then to a lesser degree, what's going on with immigration enforcement with moderate Republicans, that's something that is swaying them. And you saw that in the exits out of Virginia and New Jersey where people are saying this isn't worst first, right? You are actually even detaining American citizens at a certain point. There are tons of lawsuits. We have over 170Americans that have been in ICE detention. Like that was not what was supposed to happen. Then you have the third stool, which I think is at least the most salacious. And all of this, which is the fight over Israel kind of the battle for the soul of the America first aspect of the party with the Tucker Carlson and Nick Fuentes interview. Kevin Roberts from Heritage totally bungling it. The fact that Megyn Kelly and Candace Owens should actually separate Megyn Kelly and Candace Owens because Candace Owens is totally out of her mind. Megyn Kelly is choosing a path that makes maybe some sense for her downloads in the immediacy, but in the long term, I think makes her a pariah within the Republican Republican Party when they realize that they can't win another national election. Living in this kind of conspiracy world where 30 to 40% conservative writer estimated that this guy Ron Dreher, that 30 to 40% of Republican staffers in Washington under the age of 30 are Goipers or Nick Fuentes fans.

[B]

You said 30%.

[A]

He estimates 30 to 40% of Republican staffers in Washington.

[B]

Yeah, I'd love to see.

[A]

And if you look at that text chain, remember the GOP staffer text chain that Politico published?

[B]

Shocking.

[A]

Yeah. So how do you like my stool?

[B]

I think it's actually. I thought that was impressive, the fight over Israel. Yeah, it's an interesting one. I went to a dinner last night and with one of my role models, a guy named Sam Harris, and we had an extended conversation about Israel. And you know, it's going back to World War II. There was a large commerce.

[A]

You love World War II.

[B]

I'm that guy.

[A]

I know, it's huge.

[B]

I'm that guy.

[A]

Right. You're just like the World War II guy.

[B]

My favorite movies are anything starring Hitler. I just. When everyone's asleep, I turn on, you know, A and E. And I watch World War II in color, you know, like it's the Battle of the Bulge. It's gonna be a good night. I'm that guy now. But in Germany, Pre World War II or leading up to World War II, people forget there was a very strong communist movement. So there was the fascist slash Nazi movement. There was a very strong communist movement, far left. Far that when you go really to the extremes, they become more and more similar and they kind of meet in the middle, that whole horseshoe thing. And they were both very nationalist enemies from within, weaponizing young dissatisfied men. It's not your fault. And I find that whenever the extremists on the far left and the far right meet, you know, it's a really bad fucking idea. Like they meet. The far left started the anti vax movement and then the far right embraced it and then from a different angle. And I find that the far left and the Far right both share anti Semitic views. And so this really is a decent litmus test, as if the extremists on the left agree with the extremists on the right. You know, danger Will Robinson. And then I just want to go over Calcium Polymarket, which I'm fascinated by. These are these platforms where people can wager on events, but what it does is it illuminates the wisdom of the crowds. Now, some people would say it's perverted because the mayoral bets it ends up meant much of that capital came from China and the Gulf, which means our elections are being fucked with again. But anyways, these are, these markets to me are just fascinating because they're so far have been more right than wrong. When they bet, you know, I thought it was so smart when they said 60, 40, Trump over Harris, I thought, oh, I'm betting on Harris. And of course Trump won. These markets tend to be very good at predictions anyways in terms of who they're the odds of on. On Kalshee, who will be the Republican nominee in 2021. This blew my mind. So Tucker Carlson's 3%, Glenn Youngkin 3%. Ron DeSantis, 3%. I think that's low. I think people don't give Governor DeSantis enough credit as a candidate. Marjorie Taylor Greene, 5%. I'd put her at less than 1. There's no fucking way they're letting someone. You know, it's like if conspiracy was a person, it would have her hair cut. And again, my favorite thing is she has the energy of a woman who shows up to Costco with a, you know, demanding to return a rotisserie chicken that's already half eaten. You know, she's just that person. She's. There's definitely, you know, there's definitely something.

[A]

And also our fearless leader.

[B]

Yeah, there you go. There you go. What's my other favorite one? Oh, she has the political nuance of a leaf blower at 6am so Donald Trump, 5%. Okay, Constitution. Constitution be damned. I mean, Marco Rubio, I'd probably put that higher actually. Marco Rubio. Although I think biology is going to take him out. Marco Rubio, 9%. And the thing that blew me away, just JD Vance on Kelsey is polling at 51%.

[A]

That feels, @ this moment, that feels high to me.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Because I don't the thing, I mean, there's a few things that presidents have had in common, but one of them, almost all of them, with the exception all the way back to Nixon, I would say Nixon is the last that didn't qualify. I find that they're all quite or very likable. They have to be people you'd want to hang out with. And I don't think J.D. vance has that likability. I mean, I'm biased against the guy because I think effectively he might as well be just an automatron or a robot for Peter Thiel, who I think is an odd person, but I don't find him that like. Are you sure? That does feel high. Say more.

[A]

I think that it is up there because he's the sitting vice president and Trump has made a few comments about how JD Will do great and it'll be JD And Marco. And you would assume, obviously, that JD Vance would be the top of the ticket and that Rubio would be the vp. But you're completely correct. I mean, do you want JD Vance to represent your team in a debate? Yeah, he's a really good debater, but he is completely charmless. I have not met anyone who comes out of an interaction with anyone who's like, you know what? He blew me away. He's so personal, he's so charming. You know, I, I've heard, I know people who are friends with him, but they don't talk about him in the same way that they do about someone like a Trump. Right. Where you're really, like, spending time with him. And you know that even though I abhor everything he's done to this country, I understand a world in which Donald Trump is a good time. Right. That you'd want to watch a fight with him. He doesn't drink, but grab a jacket.

[B]

He's very charming. People love him when they meet him.

[A]

Totally. And, you know, there are. We know why people like Donald Trump, the good and the bad of it. But I totally feel that way about J.D. vance. And I think that his inability to take a definitive enough stand in support of not only Israel, but even his own wife, who has been attacked by Nick Fuentes. You know, he's gone after their mixed race children. He's called his ushavansa Jeet, you know, and he is in this battle online where he attacked a journalist who was attacking his deputy press secretary, who happens to be Tucker Carlson's son. And he goes after the journalists a lot harder than he goes after anyone who is a fan of Nick Fuentes. And I think it just says something really bad about his character, but also his understanding of the moment. You know, you want to build the biggest tent possible and you want to get as many votes as you possibly can, but Even paying lip service or kind of letting in Nick Fuentes adjacent thinkers into the party apparatus is a bad call. There are just some things that are not worth it. And being in bed with gripers has got to be one of those things.

[B]

You're exactly right. I think that, I mean they called it the sister soldier moment with Obama that at some point you demonstrate leadership. Everybody wants to sort of like, okay, they're crazy, I don't agree with them, but wink, wink, I'm going to put up with them in hopes that they stay on my, on my team. Real leadership is calling out people in your own party and just saying this is not productive. I think there's a huge opportunity now for someone who wants the Republican nomination to just come out and say, not even mention his name. But to say that the Republican party is the party that ended slavery, a key component of us and why we have earned respect and been one of the two parties in America is at a very fundamental level we flatly reject these stupid, dangerous ideas. There's a huge opportunity for Republicans to say that because it's not going to be one over getting groipers. I mean they're going to vote for the Republican, whoever that is. It's finding moderate Democrats and moderate Republicans who will vote for you that'll, you know, swing the election. I just want to comment for a minute. I'm fascinated by the media side of this. Tucker Carlson, his interview of Nick Fuentes for example, has garnered over 6 million views. And just to give you a sense for that, we're obsessed with still cable news. Fox News averages at just 1.4 million views and only 132,000 in the core demo of 25 to 54. So Tucker's reaching probably 5 to 10 times the core demo.

[A]

That's across the whole day though, right? The programming, the Fox number. Cause like the five is three and a half, 3.7 million.

[B]

That's the average viewership.

[A]

Oh God, yeah.

[B]

Across the show, across the programming. Yeah, yeah. And quite frankly, it's massively taken up. The median is probably closer to half a million if it wasn't for your show. By the way, folks, Jess is on a show that's the most viewed show in all of cable news by far. CNN gets two or three hundred thousand. A big show gets five hundred thousand. Jess show gets three and a half million, which pulls that number. Without your show, I bet that number would be closer to half a million. Anyways, my point is he gets 10 times the viewership of an average show on fox and probably 20 times the average listenership of a show on CNN. People just don't realize how powerful these podcasters are becoming. And I was almost, I won't say not a fan of Tucker, but I have found his. I've liked the fact he's willing to color outside the lines, go against his own party on certain things. I think he's an outstanding podcaster. And then I remember who the fuck Tucker Carlson actually is. And he lets someone come on his show and say, I'm a big fan of Stalin and doesn't push back on him.

[A]

Says, I'll circle back and then never circle back.

[B]

Yeah. Or tries to play Middle east geography with Ted Cruz. And quite frankly, like you said, I, like you said, comes up with these kind of anti Semitic light positioning and for some, you know, decides to very much go after Israel. And I understand there's a difference between anti Israel and anti Semitic, I get it. But it just seems like Tucker's very often early and often anti Israel and that's his right. Well, listen to me with all these fucking land acknowledgments anyways, but one of the things I really hate about Big Tech is that I don't think this clown Nick Fuentes would even exist. Because this is what happens. You are where you spend your time. And people spend get 2/3 of their news now from social, or 2/3 of people get their news from social media. And the algorithms just fucking love Nick Fuentes because anytime he speaks, he inspires hundreds or thousands of comments, anytime there's a clip of him online and every comment is another Nissan ad, which is another. Which is more shareholder value for Meta. So they take that content and they elevate it beyond its natural reach. And the reality is, I don't think a third third of congressional staffers would even know who fucking Nick Fuentes is if this content, if this noxious content wasn't elevated beyond the reach it would typically get organically. But when you're seeing him everywhere to a certain extent, and then Tucker Carlson platforms him to a certain extent, what they're doing is they're literally creating a monster. And that is they're elevating his content and ideas above the reach it would get on the merit of its own ideas. They're creating a non organic monster here, and that is his content is being elevated well beyond what it would get on its own merits because the algorithms love incendiary, controversial content, which is Latin for misinformation that is especially vile. And quite frankly, people on the far right and the far left. The algorithms just love them. Whereas reasonable policy discussion of people are somewhere in the middle. The algorithms are like, hold my beer. You're not going to inspire the kind of fight online that's going to get us the money we need. In sum, when Tucker Carlson platforms them, which I just think is really poor judgment on his part and doesn't push back, and then he says these ridiculous things and social media absolutely loves it, and you're getting clips of Nick Fuentes from different people all over the place, his ideas start to seem a little less crazy and you start thinking, well, maybe this is where America's headed. So this again, I think we're going to look back and we're not going to realize the level of mind control and influence these for profit algorithms had on us. All right, thank you for my TED Talk. Let's take a quick break. Stay with us. Foreign. For Raging Moderates Comes From Seoul when the holiday season rolls around, it can feel like there's a party every weekend. 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Right now, Soul is offering our audience 30% off your entire order. Go to getsold.com and use the code moderates. That's getsold.com promo code moderates for 30% off. Support for the show comes from factor. Between the back to school schedule, busier routines and shorter days, finding time to cook right now can be a challenge. Well factor makes meal time a breeze. Their chef prepped dietitian approved meals make it easy to stay on track and enjoy something comforting and delicious no matter how hectic the season gets. They have a wide selection of weekly meal options with cuisines from all over the globe so you're sure to find something to suit your tastes. One of our team members tried Factor and said the food is impressively tasty and fresh, the new menu options have been delicious and it's super convenient on busy work days. We highly recommend it. Eat [e-mail] moderates 50 off and use code moderates50OFF to get 50% off your first box plus free breakfast for one year. That's code moderates50OFF@Factor Meals.com for 50% off your first box plus FREE breakfast for one year. Get delicious ready to Eat meals delivered with Factor offer only valid for new Factor customers with code and qualifying auto renewing subscription purchase. Support for the show comes in the podcast Democracy Works the world certainly seems a bit alarming at the moment, and that's putting it lightly. And sometimes it can feel as if no one is really doing anything to fix it. Now a lot of podcasts focus on that, the doom and gloom of it all, and how democracy can feel like it's failing. But the people over at the Democracy Works podcast take a different approach. They're turning the mics to those who are working to make democracy stronger. From scholars to journalists to activists, they examine a different aspect of democratic life each week, from elections to the rule of law to the free press and everything in between. They interview experts who study democracy as well as people who are out there on the ground doing the hard work to keep our democracy functioning day in and day out. Listen to democracy workers wherever you listen to podcasts and check out their website democracyworkspodcast.com to learn more. The Democracy Works podcast is a Production of the McCourtney Institute for Democracy at Penn State. Welcome back. So the knives are out for Chuck Schumer, but here's the twist. He's not stepping down anytime soon, and the people who want him gone don't actually have the power to make it happen. Still, with Schumer now the most unpopular Democratic leader with his own base and a 2028 primary that's starting to look like a career ender, everyone in Washington is asking the same question. Who replaces him when the dam finally breaks? Jess, if Schumer limps into 2028, as damaged as he is today, who actually has the coalition to become the leader in the Senate? Well, first off, who do you think primaries him? And also, who do you think becomes the leader in the Senate?

[A]

I don't think he gets primaried. I think that he just announces his retirement, which honestly makes sense on the actuarial yeah, like, it's go home. It would be a lot. He has grandkids. All the things. Like, I do think. And we talked about this last week when the eight Dems voted to open up the government. And Gene Shaheen said, straight up, you know, leadership knew what we were doing, that that moment was Chuck Schumer's decision that he was not going to run for reelection, that he was like, okay, you know, this is what I think is the smart and responsible thing to do, which maybe that will be borne out. Right. That there was no other route out of this shutdown and that you needed to open up the government. And, you know, maybe we get an ACA vote, though it sounds like we're not going to, but. So I don't think this is an issue of, is AOC going to primary Chuck Schumer? Chuck Schumer's not thinking that he's going to be on the ballot, and he shouldn't, because you are supposed to pass the torch and you are supposed to go on and enjoy your life after you've had a great career in public service. You know, progressive groups who love. Love to primary, who love to go after more moderate establishment, whatever you want to call them. Democrats have been pushing the last few weeks for Chris Van Hollen to get up in Schumer's face and make a bid for leadership. Van Holland has said that he's not doing that. Bernie gave an interview where he was asked about Chuck Schumer being in leadership, and he said, like, what's the point in this conversation? Because Chuck is in the job right now, and no one is going to try to push him out before he's ready to go, which I think may even happen before the 2028 election. But my pick for future leader of the Democratic Party, well, I have two. But my top pick is Amy Klobuchar.

[B]

Oh, I love that you said that. I agree with you.

[A]

Yeah, she's just the best. You know, she's already in leadership. She's the number three Democrat.

[B]

Smart, strategic, smart.

[A]

Like, she's centrist, she's pragmatic, but she also fights. And that's what everyone's looking for right now. That's why we have to kind of, like, throw out our old conceptions of what a mushy moderate means. Moderates are raging. Look at the sign behind me. And I think Amy Klobuchar just totally fits the bill. She's 65. I think having someone from the Midwest is also a good thing. You know, New York and California are always tough So I like her. I like her fight, I like her smarts. When I interviewed her for the podcast, I thought she was just fantastic. And then another person also in leadership who I like, who will end up being the whip when Durbin goes out, who's retiring is Brian Schatz from Hawaii. And he's a great policy guy. Everybody likes him. He is progressive but has the trust of, you know, the more centrist Democrats. And he's my second choice, but Amy is my top. What about you?

[B]

I love, I love that. And it's, it's weird. I'm wrestling with on an existential or personal level. I've committed. I really want to devote a decent amount of my time, treasure and talent to try and to flip Congress back and then get involved in a. Give a bunch of money and attention to. Or what's a bunch of money for me to great candidates to try and take back the White House. And I'm struggling with. For me, the most important thing is electability. I'd rather have someone I'm not total alignment with on policy who's more likely to be elected because to me, the priority isn't the best Democrat. It's just getting, it's just making sure we don't have more of this nonsense from the far right. And if, if I were just to vote on support someone just based on what I perceive as their competence and their policy and their intellect, I would, my, my choice for president would be Senator Klobuchar. I just think she's incredibly. I think smart, needs to be the new black. And that is it really helps to have someone in the White House who has an IQ and the temperament and the judgment to make very difficult decisions on the fly and is pragmatic and understands the realpolitik of foreign policy and economics, but also is grounded in empathy. Like, okay, at the end of the day, my gag reflex is not to try and accept a plane or have a crypto secret scam is to try and help people. And I think Senator Klobuchar has both of us. By the way, she has a reputation for not being an easy person to work with.

[A]

No, Tough as nails.

[B]

And people use a different word because she's a woman. If it's a man, it's a leader. People use different words for a woman. But I like the fact that she's a bit, you know, she's not nice is what I've heard.

[A]

She's Minnesota nice.

[B]

Well, yeah, yeah, but, but in terms of electability, I'm like Newsom Newsom Newsom. And I don't. I'm struggling with. Do you advocate for the person who's most electable or the person who you think would actually do the best job if they were elected? Anyways? This is what keeps me up at night, Jess. This is what keeps me up at night.

[A]

That and your prostate. Sorry. Is that a.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

Sorry.

[B]

I'm just trying to be a little more like you. Four to six times.

[A]

The good thing about. If Amy ends up the Democratic leader in the Senate, like, that's a huge job that she's very deserving of. And I don't know if she's even thinking about running for president again, but it gives her something.

[B]

As Senator Booker said, they're all running.

[A]

Yes, especially if you've already run before. But I. You know, I went to an Amy rally in Des Moines before the primary, and it was. It was a lot of fun. It was full of women, just like. It was like overeducated white woman. And it was right after she came out with that line about how every ex boyfriend is donated to her campaign and that there's no other candidate that could say that. And I just. You know, she feels like one of us, and I really like her for it. And I hope that she gets that job, if that's what she's after, because I think it's very well deserved and that she'll be a great guiding force for the Democratic Senate coalition going forward.

[B]

When Senator Schumer entered Congress in 1981, the median price of a home was $69,000. The average tuition for public college was $900 and $4,000 for a private institution. Ronald Reagan had just been inaugurated. AIDS was discovered that year, and MTV launched the year that Senator Schumer came to. Came to power. And my favorite is the biggest movie is the year that Senator Schumer, or then Representative Schumer, Raiders of the Lost Ark on Golden Pawn. Really nice film. Superman ii. Don't know it. Arthur. Funny and Stripes. And then the best film of the year. Well, the funniest was A Cannonball Run. But the best film of the year. A wonderful film. Did you ever see Chariots of Fire?

[A]

Yes, I've seen that little film.

[B]

That little film. That was an outstanding.

[A]

But it also was a long time ago.

[B]

Yeah, that's the point of all this. Senator Schumer should take a page out of the MTV playbook. And that is. MTV has come and gone. It closed down last week. MTV is no longer a thing. Anyways, with that, we'll take one more break. Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder With a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odoo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all in one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, E commerce, and more. And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you try Odoo for [e-mail] that's o d o o.com what are you hoping for today in the founders? Scrappy, traction oriented grinders and hustlers who will blow through every brick wall in this building to get to where they need to be. Welcome to the pitch season 14 where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest on this season of the show. 10 VCs, 107 startups with one shot to build the company of their dreams. Oh my God, we built the entirely wrong product. Two shots to build the company of their dreams with that intro. Let's go. Season 14 is available now wherever you listen to podcasts, so subscribe to the Pitch so you don't miss it. This season is presented by Adobe.

[A]

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[B]

Welcome back. Before we go, let's talk about First Lady Michelle Obama, who just said the quiet part out loud. America still isn't ready for for a woman president. She pointed to Kamala Harris's failed run, called out the men who can't be led by a woman and shut down again any fantasy that she'd ever run herself. Classic Michelle Blunt, funny and a little brutal regarding where the country is. And her comments land as Democrats face their own identity crisis. From who replaces Schumer to carries the torch nationally in a post Trump era. Let's watch a clip of Michelle over the weekend.

[A]

Do you think that that impacts the room that we've made for a woman to be president?

[B]

Well, as we saw in this past election, sadly we ain't ready. That's why I'm like, don't even look at me about running because you all are lying. You're not ready for a woman. You are not. So don't waste my time. You know, we got a lot of growing up to do, and there's still, I mean, sadly, a lot of men who do not feel like they can be led by a woman. And we saw it. God, I think she's. I think she's so good. I mean, some of the best parenting advice I've ever received that really resonated with me came from the First Lady. I think she's so practical and sounds like such a good parent. You know, you're not. You're not their friend. You're their parent. It's taken me a long time to figure that out. You need to have the hard conversations now, you know, in other words, we sometimes need to be assholes such that they don't grow up to be assholes. I think she's so smart and practical, but right there, she just said the quiet part out loud. And I've been saying this. I think the easiest way to lose the election and then not have a female president for the next 20 or 30 years would be to run a woman again. Because if you look at just the data, the primary qualification to be an elected official in America is a college degree. It's like, I don't know, 94, 97%. We've been graduating more women from college now for about 30 years, and yet only 27% of our elected officials are female. We've gone from 18% of C level positions in the corporate America to 27 in the last 10 years. The number of women elected to some form of parliament globally is growing, but it seems to be a little bit flatlining in the U.S. at 27%. And I think it's because we are still a highly luxist and sexist nation. And I worry that. And just going back to Senator Klobuchar, I am meeting with a presidential candidate this morning and this person does not appreciate what I've said several times, and that is, I've said no one under six feet is going to be elected president. And I don't care if it's a man who's vertically challenged or a woman. I just don't think it's going to happen. And I think she said it in a way that's much more compelling and she's the right messenger. You're not ready for me. You're not ready for a female president. I do think we'll have a female president. She will be a Republican who has the reputation for drone striking families. If they run a stop sign, it's gonna be a very Margaret Thatcher like figure. But I think it would be a huge mistake. And I hate to say, say this for the Democrats, and I don't think they will, but anyways, I'll stop my word salad. What are your thoughts on First Lady Obama's talk?

[A]

Well, I have the same anxiety that you do. And there was a method to the madness of picking the most bland character in Joe Biden to be the candidate in 2020 and ended up winning an election that way. But I feel like Michelle is kind of sick of telling people no, like we've been asking her to run for president because she has that Oprah like appeal where people, no matter their politics, really gravitate to Michelle Obama. And I think a lot of that, you know, connects to what you were saying about the parenting advice. We all read her first book and that scene where she's crying in her car on her lunch break with Chipotle and she's had to run to get Halloween costumes and Barack is spending too much in Springfield and she feels like she's doing all of this alone. Like, that resonates, right? That feels like I may have had this extraordinary life, but I'm just one of you. Which is what we want to see in our electeds. Right? We want that relatability. And she gives an insanely good speech. I saw her at the dnc. I saw both of them speak. And I didn't meet one person that night. I don't know if you were still there for her and Obama's night, but everyone thought Michelle gave the better speech. And Obama even admitted it when he came out. He said, like, it's impossible to follow that. Right. You know, and he does a great job. But I want to be a little glass half full on this topic because I think that as we see more and more important victories for women in politics, like we just saw Abigail Spanberger and Mikey Sheryl win those races. Right? Those are two. I don't know exactly how tall they are. They don't look huge to me. You know, blonde moms who have great records, of course, and served our country, but they're not huge, imposing fate. Right. They don't present masculine, frankly, at all. And they kicked ass in those races by huge margins. And I should note there was a woman on the other side of the ballot also in Virginia.

[B]

They were such superior candidates, though. I mean, they were just. They totally outclassed.

[A]

Totally. But 14 and 15 points isn't just winning, that's a route, especially considering what happened in 2024. And I think that when Michelle says, well, we saw what happened with Kamala, like Kamala wasn't a candidate that the party chose to lead us, and that hurt her enormously.

[B]

It was a coronation, not a competition. That's the biggest criticism I think you could have of the whole process.

[A]

And if it had been even a mini primary, which is what Pelosi had wanted, maybe Kamala would have been the winner. I mean, being VP gets you a lot of cred, as it should. Or maybe she wouldn't have been, but her candidacy would have felt different to people. And I will go to my grave feeling like it was also a winnable race if a few key things have been done differently. You know, the interview with the View, if she, you know, I, I thought her interview with Brett Bear was actually good on Special Report, but, you know, done an ounce better and shown people that she's got that commander in Chief vibe and had a good response about the attacks like the trans ad and things like that. Not that you have to get down in the dirt with people, but just to basically say, absolutely not, that isn't happening. And frankly, it did happen on your watch. I think it could have been different. I want to say though, the other female candidate, H. Clinton, won the popular vote by 3 million votes. And I have seen nobody from Nate Silver to the, you know, person you meet on the street who doesn't think that the Comey letter coming out 11 days before that election and key mistakes like not going to Wisconsin, which her husband had been saying, you, you know, you got to go and do that, could not have swung a few hundred thousand votes in the key states. And that was in 2016. So take 2016 United States and put that at 2028 United States. And I feel like with the right female candidate, it could be possible. I am still scared, but I wanted to make that case.

[B]

In my view, it's always what they did wrong and market dynamics. Well, as Trump individual performance. I think Vice President Harris delivered one of the strongest individual performances in political history within that debate. The performance. She just absolutely slaughtered the guy. It was great. And she was given basically 11 weeks or whatever it was to run an American style election. I think she did her level best. She made some mistakes. She's kind of a bland candidate. I've always said she kind of brightens up a room by leaving it. She just doesn't have that same gravitas, charisma. I don't think Anyone affiliated with Joe Biden and quite frankly, incumbency and more of the same was going to win the election. And I think if they'd had a competition, it would have produced a candidate who could have positioned himself as one, I am not President Trump, and two, I am not Joe Biden. I'm not President Joe Biden. And this person could have gone a little bit on the offensive around what was wrong with the Biden administration and positioned themselves as a little bit of outsider. I think that person might have won. But the vibe I get from the first lady, I don't know if you feel this way. I'm a huge fan of Presidents Obama and Clinton and both kind of heroes of mine, but I can't help it. I sometimes wonder, did we elect the wrong Obama and the wrong Clinton? I think Secretary Clinton is the great president we should have had. And I'm really disappointed. I don't like dynasties, but it's a shame that I would love to see First Lady Obama run for Senate. I think she'd be such a powerful voice for the middle class.

[A]

She hates politics. She won't give it up.

[B]

Well, and they're on David Geffen's boat in Capri. I mean, they got a pretty good life. Yeah, they got a pretty good life. All right, Jess, before we go, we're working on our end of the year mailbag episode to answer some of your burning questions on all things politics. Send us a 15 second voice recording to Raging [e-mail] Again, that's Raging ModeratesPropertyMedia.com and we might include yours. All right, that's all for this episode. Thank you for listening, Raging Moderates. Have a good week, Jaz.

[A]

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