Trump Threatens to WIPE OUT Iran and Triggers 25th Amendment Calls (ft. Katie Phang)

Summary

---

Raging Moderates – April 7, 2026

“Trump Threatens to WIPE OUT Iran and Triggers 25th Amendment Calls” (ft. Katie Phang)
Vox Media Podcast Network
Hosts: Jessica Tarlov, Scott Galloway (absent this episode)
Guest: Katie Phang (Attorney, Host of The Katie Fang Show)

---

Episode Overview

This episode tackles President Trump's alarming threat to “wipe out” Iran if the Strait of Hormuz is not reopened by that evening—a move escalating war tensions, provoking international anxiety, and leading to bipartisan calls for his removal via the 25th Amendment. Jessica Tarlov and guest Katie Phang dissect the volatile mix of U.S. military aggression, escalating autocracy, fraying global alliances, and the vanishing guardrails of American democracy. They sharply critique the surrounding cast of Administration figures, discuss the calculus—and absurdities—of moderates in today's political climate, and speculate about the real risks and outcomes if Trump’s rhetoric is allowed to dictate global events.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Extremes of American Politics

• Contextualizing the Moment (01:02–01:56)
  • Katie Fang opens by lamenting, “Aren't we at a moment, Jess, where we are literally living on the extremes?... Just a handful of autocrats, wannabe dictators like Trump and Orban and others that get to divvy up the world?”
  • The hosts agree that American politics has moved to the “edges,” with norm-breaking behavior and the concentration of power in a few, unpredictable hands.

2. Trump’s Threats Against Iran

• Recap & Reaction (02:42–05:53)
  • Jessica recaps Trump’s warning that “a whole civilization could be wiped out” if Iran does not comply by his deadline.
  • Notably, Trump’s language is apocalyptic, and he holds out hope for something “revolutionarily wonderful” (02:42).
  • Katie ridicules the threat’s logic: “You want the people of Iran to do something revolutionarily wonderful then, hey, we're just going to take you all out in the same stroke?” (03:47).
  • Both comment on the grotesque normalcy of having to “chuckle through a Taco Tuesday where you have a man who has the control over the nuclear codes saying that he's going to eliminate an entire country in one fell swoop” (03:47).
  • Concerns extend to the lack of “adults in the room,” with Katie spotlighting Pete Hegseth’s bloodlust and lack of moral compass: “If there was ever anybody who was... the chef's kiss match for Trump... it was definitely Hagseth” (04:47).

3. Military Action & Cabinet Dynamics

• The Overton Window Slides (05:53–10:20)
  • Jessica describes the U.S. strike on Carg Island as a “double tap” rather than a new stage of war—signaling a targeted but dangerous escalation (06:14).
  • The discourse turns to General Kane, nominally an “adult in the room,” but whose public flattery of Trump (“very North Korean, it's very gross, I hard pass”) undermines faith in his moderating power (07:53–08:58).
  • Katie sharply critiques this dynamic: “It's the imprinter of credibility that makes me worried by somebody like Dan Kane" (10:09).

4. Diplomatic Gambits: J.D. Vance and the ‘Throuple’

• Vice President as Go-Between (10:20–12:56)
  • Jessica calls out J.D. Vance’s unusual role as a negotiator in Hungary, where he campaigns for Viktor Orban. Fang is skeptical: “If you could take a beat and stop kissing Viktor Orban's ass long enough to maybe help the United States end an unconstitutional and illegal war, that would be fantastic” (11:10).
  • The negotiations’ true parties are described as “a throuple… Iran, US, and Israel. It’s not just US and Iran” (11:41).
  • Even with proposals (like a 45-day ceasefire), Fang doubts any deal can proceed without Israeli approval (12:05).

5. Regime Change, Autocrats & Foreign Policy Chaos

• Global Patterns and Hypocrisy (12:56–16:16)
  • Katie and Jessica connect U.S. actions to a global pattern of autocrats divvying up the world.
  • Fang rants about regime change: “Apparently we did do this for regime change, which everybody denied in this administration from day one... now the latest excuse... was we’ve successfully achieved regime change—which again, nobody ever said what was the plan, the purpose or the goals behind going into this war” (12:56).
  • The U.S. pushes against NATO, obsesses over “not getting Greenland,” and sends “yes men” (Vance, Hegseth, Rubio, Gabbard) to do Trump’s bidding.
  • On Vance: “I don’t think he’s going to have the negotiation skills that is going to land this plane” (15:54).

6. Media Voices—Tucker Carlson, Megyn Kelly, and Fractures on the Right

• Unlikely Critics & Conservative Splits (16:26–22:29)
  • Jessica and Katie are surprised (and amused) that even Tucker Carlson is denouncing Trump’s Easter post threatening Iran:
    • “This is a mockery not just of Islam, it’s a mockery of Christianity. To send out a tweet with the F-word on Easter morning promising the murder of civilians... You are mocking me and every other Christian because we're Christians. We can't support that. That is evil” (Tucker Carlson, 16:26).
  • Katie is “almost relieved in a way that somebody actually was standing up for Christianity on Sunday,” and highlights the lack of decorum and accountability around Trump (16:54).
  • Conservative media stars (Tucker, Megyn Kelly) show performative splits:
    • “Megyn Kelly... went back and said, like, I'm voting Republican no matter what. Right. Like they could, you could drop a nuclear bomb and I'm still voting Republican” (21:28).
  • The hosts argue that for many media figures, dissatisfaction with Trump is more about “clicks and dollars” than real conviction (21:28–22:29).

7. 25th Amendment Chatter & Cabinet Intrigue

• Real Prospects or Wishful Thinking? (22:29–27:36)
  • Calls for Trump’s removal erupt—amplified by Alex Jones:
    • “How do we 25th Amendment his ass?... It literally needs to be something like that. It's that bad” (Alex Jones, 23:24).
  • Katie: “Impeachment and Section 4, 25th Amendment, these are not mutually exclusive goals. Jess, you can have it all. Why limit ourselves to the crumbs of just impeachment?” (24:29).
  • She posits that J.D. Vance, given Cabinet support, could potentially use the 25th to become president: “It's ironically the fastest and most constitutional way for JD Vance to get into the Oval Office, which we all know is end game for JD” (24:47).

8. Strategy & The Limits of Political Communication

• Bread-and-Butter vs. Democratic Crisis (27:36–32:43)
  • Jessica worries that bread-and-butter issues (like the grocery bill) still outweigh constitutional crises for most voters.
  • Katie insists Democrats can and must message both: “Affordability and impeachment, slash, get the crazy guy out of the office... can live together and not be fighting against each other” (31:53–32:43).
  • Trump’s $1.5 trillion military ask gets called out as threatening funds for basic American needs—“stealing from Peter to feed Paul, and Paul's the only one... living in the Trump family” (31:57).

9. The Defense Budget, Coup Fears & Military Loyalty

• Timothy Snyder’s Warnings (32:43–35:00)
  • Timothy Snyder’s theory: Trump’s defense budget is a bid to buy military loyalty and prepare for a power grab.
  • Katie: “There’s evidentiary proof that, that’s how you do it... He has always wanted that type of intimacy [with the military] in terms of his office...” (33:12).
  • However, she expresses faith that the military’s oath “was never supposed to be politicized,” and that most service members recognize this (33:53–35:00).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Just a handful of autocrats, wannabe dictators like Trump and Orban and others that get to divvy up the world?... it's so, to me, frustrating that we just have these very small men with very big dreams, with very powerful weapons that are carving up our world.”
  — Katie Fang, 01:04 & 13:42

• “You want the people of Iran to do something revolutionarily wonderful then, hey, we're just going to take you all out in the same stroke?”
  — Katie Fang, 03:47

• “There's no morality, there's no caution, there's no discretion, there's no measure in Hegseth... If there was ever anybody who was, I think, the chef's kiss match for Trump... it was definitely Hagseth.”
  — Katie Fang, 04:47

• “The delusional deluge that we're not really taking stock of. The fact that you're talking about a country with over 90 million people on it.”
  — Jessica Tarlov, 06:04

• “Almost relieved in a way that somebody actually was standing up for Christianity on Sunday. Because again, no one around Trump is the adult to tell him, Mr. President, we don't post stuff like that on Easter Sunday...”
  — Katie Fang, 16:54

• “Impeachment and Section 4, 25th Amendment, these are not mutually exclusive goals... Why limit ourselves to the crumbs of just impeachment? You can pursue Section 4, 25th Amendment. I actually think J.D. Vance has it in him to do this...”
  — Katie Fang, 24:29–24:47

• “How great is it to have a young baby in the White House?... Now, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I do believe that there were a lot of machinations that went into this Jess—that was not just, he would look like a good VP candidate.”
  — Katie Fang, 27:57

• “My job was never supposed to be politicized. My role as a soldier was never to serve one man. It was to serve an entire country. And that's why my oath has never been to the President of the United States, but to the people...”
  — Katie Fang, 33:53

---

Important Timestamps

• 01:02: Fang introduces the “living on the extremes” theme.
• 02:42: Tarlov summarizes Trump’s threats; outlines episode’s stakes.
• 03:47: Fang ridicules the internal logic of the threat.
• 04:47: Extended critique of Pete Hegseth and administration sycophancy.
• 05:53–10:20: Discussion of General Kane, “ass kissing,” and military leadership.
• 10:20–12:56: The rise of J.D. Vance as negotiator; “the throuple” US/Iran/Israel dynamic.
• 12:56–16:16: Regime change, Orban, and the decline of US diplomacy.
• 16:26–16:54: Tucker Carlson condemns Trump’s Easter post; Fang’s reaction.
• 21:28–22:29: Conservative media “splits” analyzed; Megyn Kelly’s remarks.
• 22:29–24:47: Alex Jones on 25th Amendment; Fang explains constitutional mechanisms.
• 27:36–32:43: Political strategy and the problem of messaging in 2026.
• 32:43–35:00: Timothy Snyder's coup theory explained; deep dive on military loyalty.

---

Episode Tone & Style

• Cynical, deeply exasperated, sometimes darkly humorous.
• Direct and profane (especially Phang, e.g., “get the crazy guy out of the office,” “you're not going to get it from Hegseth”).
• Ironically self-aware about the absurdity and extremity of the current political era.
• Determinably centrist, but mad as hell.

---

This episode of Raging Moderates is a bracing, unsparing look at the deepening crises under the Trump administration, with honest debate about the tools (and limits) moderates have to push back against the tide of extremism and political dysfunction.

Transcript

[John Finer]

What goes up must come down.

[Katie Fang]

Except when it comes to gas prices.

[John Finer]

The price tends to rocket up very quickly at the pump, as when crude oil prices go up, but gasoline prices

[Katie Fang]

tend to take a little bit longer

[John Finer]

to go down in many cases. This week on Explain It To Me

[Katie Fang]

why gas and everything else is so expensive these days. Find new episodes Sundays wherever you get your podcasts.

[John Finer]

Where does President Trump's speech leave us with regard to where the war is headed? And it really was, to me, the story of the commander in chief who, weeks into this war is deeply uncertain about how it ends. I'm John Finer, co host of the Long Game podcast. This week, Jake Sullivan and I break down the president's speech and discuss what it's like to negotiate with the Iranians. We will also debate whether Iran should accept a deal. The episode is out now. Search and follow the Long Game wherever you get your podcasts.

[Katie Fang]

Aren't we at a moment, Jess, where we are literally living on the extremes? We are 100% living, like on the edges of everything. Footnote apparently we did do this for regime change, which everybody denied in this administration from day one. But I guess now the latest excuse, according to this presser yesterday, was we've successfully achieved regime change, which again, nobody ever said what was the plan, the purpose or the goals behind going into this war. Is it just a handful of autocrats, wannabe dictators like Trump and Orban and others that get to divvy up the world? Is. Is that it? I mean, it's so, to me, frustrating that we just have these very small men with very big dreams, with very powerful weapons that are carving up our world.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Welcome to Raging Moderates. I'm Jessica Tarlov and today I'm very lucky to be joined by attorney and host of the Katie Fang show on the Midas Touch Network. Katie Fang, thank you for coming back. It's been a while.

[Katie Fang]

It's been too long. And I figured if there was anybody with whom I could spend end of days with, it would be Jess Tarloff. So I'm happy to be here.

[Jessica Tarlov]

I was thinking of that. What was that movie? A Friend for the End of the World.

[Katie Fang]

Yes, that is totally accurate. I don't even know, you know, it's like, is it wrong for me to be laughing? Shouldn't be laughing, but this is just absurd. Like, you just kind of have to like chuckle your way through it, right?

[Jessica Tarlov]

I guess so. Or until 8pm when we see if something actually happens or if it's another round of taco.

[Katie Fang]

I've Been calling it Taco Tuesdays. Taco Tuesdays.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Kind of perfect. Okay. All right, I'm going to set the table because we already got to the conclusion. But in case you hadn't noticed, President Trump is warning that a whole civilization could be wiped out if Tehran doesn't open the Strait of Hormuz by his deadline of 8pm tonight. Set your calendars, your alarms, whatever you need to do. In a social media post, just hours before that cutoff, he said, a whole civilization will die tonight. While still holding out faint hope that something, quote, revolutionarily wonderful could prevent the strikes. Trump's also threatened to decimate Iran's bridges and shut down its power grid, moves that could constitute war crimes. Iran, for its part, is vowing crushing and extensive retaliation of civilian infrastructure is hit. And despite a reported 10 point proposal from Iran to end the conflict, seems like there's no sign of a breakthrough before tonight's deadline. Let's watch this clip from Trump's presser yesterday.

[John Finer]

The entire country could be taken out in one night, and that night might be tomorrow night.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Short clip. But to the point, what do you think is going to happen this evening?

[Katie Fang]

I don't think the United States is going to annihilate the people of Iran. I mean, doesn't that kind of defeat the whole purpose? It's like you, you want the people of Iran to do something revolutionarily wonderful than, hey, we're just going to take you all out in the same stroke. I just, I do think it's a Taco Tuesday. I do find it to be alarming, though, that again, we can chuckle through a Taco Tuesday where you have a man who has the control over the nuclear codes saying that he's going to eliminate an entire country in one fell swoop, I, I find it to be remarkable. More so that there is, are there, there are literally no adults ever left in this administration. I mean, you, you, you look at what he posted on Easter Sunday of all days, of all days to post. And then you look at, listen, I, and I know that used to work with him, but I don't think Pete Hegseth is ever going to reign in Trump. Pete Hegseth's bloodlust, I think, exceeds Donald Trump.

[Jessica Tarlov]

This is say what you want about Pete Hegseth show. Go for you.

[Katie Fang]

So there's no morality, there's no caution, there's no discretion, there's no measure in Hegseth. So, I mean, if there was ever anybody who was, I think, like the chef's kiss match for Trump when it comes to having an appointment, like a cabinet appointment, like a Secretary of Defense, it was definitely Hagseth. But what's more crazy, the fact that Trump posted what he posts and says what he says, or the fact that somebody doesn't stop him from doing it and somebody doesn't tell him to take it down or people don't quit over it, I mean, there, there has to be an off ramp. So to the Looney Tunes moment that seems to be repeating itself day in and day out. But I find it also very upsetting because this is not just a United States, Iran thing. We've got Israel involved. We have other countries in the Middle east region that are involved. And so it's, you know, one life lost is one life lost too many. And what upsets me is that we're just gonna watch the day come and go, and then people are gonna wake up on Wednesday morning and he will not have bombed around into the Stone Ages. And then we're all just gonna kind of move on. I'm kind of at my, my end on that tolerance level, I think.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Yeah, I think that there are bridges that we are crossing that because of the deluge. Deluge, I should say, of information all the time.

[Katie Fang]

Delusional deluge.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Yeah, the delusional deluge that we're not really taking stock of. The fact that you're talking about a country with over 90 million people on it.

[Katie Fang]

Yes.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Right. This is no small threat. And I'm not sure how seriously Iran takes it. I mean, their social media would indicate that they know that this is a meme game more than a bombs game. And we should note that at the same time that this was going on, there was another US Military attack on Carg island, which appears to be more of a double tap than something new. It was just us. Israel was not affiliated with this particular move. But that signals a very different approach than we're going to bomb you into the Stone Age. Right. That's more targeted. And about the oil. And I keep going back to, I guess, two things. One, about the adults in the room. I think that General Kane seems like an adult in the room, even though he always gets pushed to the side and ignored in the press conferences. Like when.

[Katie Fang]

But yesterday, Kane, disappointingly, was kissing his ass. Like that was.

[Jessica Tarlov]

You always have to kiss the ass. No, no, no. I, I, I think that there has to be. Why? Because then you're going to lose your job. And I think that people who serve in these capacities and have the chance to rein it in when it actually counts if it looks like public flattery, but they have some sort of moderating force in there versus another version of a headset coming up like Dan Driscoll as well. The one that Hegseth is so concerned is going to get his job if he does get pushed out as the Secretary of Defense. I can handle some ass kissing in a press conference if I know that the Situation Room isn't just Donald Trump, Stephen Miller, and Pete Hegseth. That's how it happens.

[Katie Fang]

But that, but that also presupposes, Jess, that Trump will listen to Kaine and that Hegseth will listen to Cain. What I heard yesterday from Cain was our dear cult leader commander in chief is so amazing. And, and what I, what, what disturbed me was Cain saying, this man, as in Trump, delivers on his promises. And I understand he was talking in the context of rescuing our downed service members, which I want to make clear. The, the level of heroism that is involved from people in our armed services right now is stunningly amazing. And I don't ever want to sound like I don't support our armed services, but I says something like, this man keeps his promises. Then you couple it with what we're seeing. I get very worried about Kane giving any accolades to Trump. He could just get up and he could deliver the information that he should be delivering to the American people that we're not really getting from this administration. And instead he. The flattery is very North Korean. It's very gross. I hard pass. I don't think that's a part of your job requirement.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Sure, but like, it is part of your job requirement to survive this administration.

[Katie Fang]

And does he need to like, does he have, I don't know, do we

[Jessica Tarlov]

need a situation room that is in Mar a Lago and it's Donald Trump, Stephen Miller, Pete Hegseth.

[Katie Fang]

It's next to the buffet brunch. Yeah, I know, 100%.

[Jessica Tarlov]

There's a black curtain up for some privacy. There are Apple watches. Apple watch with a, with an Apple watch. Right. And there's not a legit general insight. So I'm going to take the ass kissing general.

[Katie Fang]

Okay.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Versus that alternative. But I understand your standards are perhaps higher than mine and maybe I'm a little conservative media coded and how I'm looking at this.

[Katie Fang]

No, but maybe I'm not being realistic and I understand. But I do think, aren't we at a moment just where we are literally living on the extremes? Like, I feel like we live on the edge of town. Like we are 100% living, like on the Edges of everything. And if we are living in that extreme land, and I feel like the extreme would be if Cain doesn't agree, then Kane shouldn't be there. And I don't mean like I wanted them to have green khaki uniforms versus blue. I'm talking like, this is wrong, everything I'm seeing is wrong. Or it's too gray. We're two in the gray on this one. I'm not comfortable. I feel like it's the imprinter of credibility that makes me worried by somebody like Dan Kane.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Okay, halfway towards where you are. And I wanted to talk about J.D. vance, who seems to be playing more of an interesting role than I expected in this. So he's in Hungary to campaign for Viktor Orban, which disturbs me on a whole host of other levels, but apparently he is a linchpin of these negotiations and the Iranians think that J.D. vance is the right person to be talking to. Do you think that there is a chance at all of some sort of diplomatic resolution? I understand why the Iranians want a real deal versus a 45 day cease fire. And they've looked at the example of what's gone on in Palestine, for instance, and said like, that's not going to be good enough for this. Do you think that there's any shot at this? Or like, how does it end? I guess.

[Katie Fang]

Well, I, I do think and, and I wanted to make sure that I could speak intelligently about this. I find though the quote, end of Israeli strikes against Hezbollah in Lebanon being a non starter for an end end. And that's why I understand, J.D. vance. If you could take a beat and stop kissing Viktor Orban's ass long enough to maybe help the United States end an unconstitutional and illegal war, that would be fantastic. But then doesn't J.D. vance have to consult with Bibi Netanyahu to get his green light on any deal? I feel like it's a very. It's a throuple, is it not? It's Iran, US and Israel. It's not just US and Iran. And this throuple is getting very crowded and it's a lot of, you know, energy here. And I just don't know if the US could actually make a deal without Israel blessing it or however that would go.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Oh, I think that that's completely correct. I'm not saying that this is the deal that will get accepted, but it is interesting to see at least a pullback of some of the more outlandish requests, at least of the United States, like giving up, you know, US bases in the Gulf, which was obviously going to be a non starter for us. I don't know, maybe I'm just too glass half full about General Kane and the chances of there being some sort of resolution, but I like to think that it is possible. And I, and I do find J.D. vance to be an interesting player in this because he was siloed. Then he became a focal point, then he was siloed again and sent out like he was on the campaign trail talking about prices. The only one acknowledging that prices were up. Now he's in Hungary and could be the point person on a negotiation. Like, it is an odd place for a vice president to be.

[Katie Fang]

So what I do find to be even more odd is JD Vance is very publicly backing an autocrat in Hungary. Right. It is a, it is a foregone conclusion. Orban's looking at some serious trouble, so they had to call in the reinforcements by way of J.D. vance. Why is Trump not there? I don't know. Is there some protocol where the President doesn't travel internationally when he's illegally in a war? I have no idea. But Vance being there openly backing an autocrat and the shift that Orban does, some would say is pretty bad. Like what Iran does to its people. Right? Like in terms of the Iran Revolutionary Guard, et cetera. Right. I'll say old school Iran footnote. Apparently we did do this for regime, regime change, which everybody denied in this administration from day one, because you really can't be going in for regime change without congressional authorization for shit. But I guess now the latest excuse, according to this presser yesterday, was we've successfully achieved regime change. Which again, nobody ever said what was the plan, the purpose or the goals behind going into this war. But isn't it so funny then because diplomacy ends up being a weird thing, does it not? Just because. How do you define that? Is it just a handful of autocrats, wannabe dictators like Trump and Orban and others that get to divvy up the world? Putin, Is that it? Because sending Vance as some type of emissary to resolve this. Because when you look at something like Israel has to stop strikes on Hezbollah, actually Hezbollah is bad. So you know what? Maybe we shouldn't have Hezbollah or Hamas. Right. But why? Why? That shows Iran is also not necessarily operating in good faith. So do we really have a regime change? Right. I mean, it's so, to me, frustrating that we just have these very small men with very big dreams with very powerful weapons that are carving up our world. And that is why you're looking at Vance, who's just a yes man. He's never going to say anything that's anti what Trump wants because that defeats the Vance's own purpose. You're not going to get it from Hegseth. You're not going to get it from Rubio, you're not going to get it from Gabbard as long as she lasts. Right. You're not getting it from Cain per se, although I'm not privy to the confidentiality of those conversations. You're not getting it from allies because the allies are meeting without the United States to figure out a way to open the Strait of Hormuz in a way that will not decimate their global economies. And the United States again, thinking that pulling out of NATO makes sense because he's pissed off he didn't fucking get Greenland. I mean, this is how out of the world these conversations are. But I don't think Vance is necessarily going to have an original thought going into any of this. I don't think he's going to have the negotiation skills that is going to land this plane.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Oh, I didn't say that necessarily. The skills, though, compared to Steve Witkoff, who didn't even understand what an enrichment proposal actually looked like.

[Katie Fang]

Where's Jared?

[Jessica Tarlov]

Well, I think Jared and Steve are plane hopping, I guess around the region. Or maybe they're just in Miami looking

[Katie Fang]

for new real estate investments. Is that what we're looking for?

[Jessica Tarlov]

Gaza lago still on the way. But some of the criticisms that you just brought up, we actually are also hearing from Tucker Carlson, and I wanted to play a clip of him for you.

[John Finer]

This is a mockery not just of Islam, it's a mockery of Christianity. To send out a tweet with the F word on Easter morning promising the murder of civilians and then saying praise be to Allah without explaining any of it. You are mocking me and every other Christian because we're Christians. We can't support that. That is evil. That is an intentional desecration of beauty and truth.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Were you surprised to hear Tucker going that hard?

[Katie Fang]

No, not surprised. Almost relieved in a way that somebody actually was standing up for Christianity on Sunday. Because again, no one around Trump is the adult to tell him, Mr. President, we don't post stuff like that on Easter Sunday and we certainly don't use an F bomb on Easter Sunday. Whether you're a Christian or not, there is a decorum that is lacking, which ironically, I think it was the Iranian embassy of Zimbabwe that posted about what presidential decorum is supposed to look like. But no, I wasn't surprised. Happy to see that somebody actually says that. I don't. I agree with Tucker Carlson as like my hair lights on fire that that's not what you do. But is he more angry about the the post, the truth social post and the fact it happened on Easter Sunday, or is he angry about the fundamentals of a man who should not have control over the nuclear codes, threatening what he's been threatening, which by the way today was annihilating Iran. But we've had this in days leading up, have we? Not just we've had the threats against desalination plants, power plants, nuclear plants, bridges. Isn't today supposed to be bridge day? It is bridge day, right? It's Tuesday.

[Jessica Tarlov]

And power plant.

[Katie Fang]

Yeah. And power plant day. I mean this is war crime day. Let's just call it war crime day because that. Or is it going to be war crime Wednesday because he talk about on Tuesday and then roll it into Wednesday, who knows? But I was glad Tucker Carlson said it. And the power behind Tucker's voice, as we know, is he reaches a lot of people. Now the question is, are people more angry about a bad truth social post on the holy of days of Easter Sunday? Are they mad about Trump spending one to two, you know, billion dollars a day on a war that nobody really wants us to be in, despite what Trump says?

[Jessica Tarlov]

If you aren't already, make sure to subscribe to our YouTube page to stay in the loop on all political news. Okay, let's take a break. Stay with.

[John Finer]

For the last 10 years, everything in American politics has basically revolved around one man. And as a political journalist who came of age during Donald Trump's rise in 2016, I've had a front row seat. I am officially running for President of the United States. It's going to be only America First. America First. Thousands of supporters of President Trump stormed

[Katie Fang]

the U.S. capitol building.

[John Finer]

But is it possible to talk about politics without talking about Donald Trump? That's the question I'm going to ask in our new show from vox.

[Jessica Tarlov]

The idea of like a post Trump or not exactly Trump focused show can exist because he's not really driving any agenda items. It really does feel like so reactive.

[John Finer]

You know, I think this Iran thing is also going to cause a big split in the gop. So far it doesn't among like people who say they're MAGA voters are still with Trump. But like for the first time you see on a major issue, open opposition from the start of this war. I'm Estet Herndon and welcome to America, actually.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Hi, I'm Brene Brown.

[John Finer]

And I'm Adam Grant.

[Katie Fang]

And we're here to invite you to

[John Finer]

the Curiosity Shop, a podcast that's a place for listening, wondering, thinking, feeling, and questioning. It's going to be fun. We rarely agree, but we almost never disagree. And we're always learning.

[Jessica Tarlov]

That's true.

[Katie Fang]

You can subscribe to the Curiosity shop

[John Finer]

on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app to automatically receive new episodes every Thursday.

[Katie Fang]

It's Today Explained. President Trump has not made a coherent

[Jessica Tarlov]

case for his war in Iran.

[Katie Fang]

And last night he said he's not ending it yet.

[John Finer]

We're going to hit them extremely hard over the next two to three weeks. We're going to bring them back to the Stone Ages where they belong. His ally, Tucker Carlson has been making a very coherent case against the war because it doesn't serve American interests in any conceivable way. And, and let, let me just say that if it does in some way serve the interests of the United States, I'd love to hear it. I haven't heard.

[Katie Fang]

On Tuesday, we asked Carlson about his

[John Finer]

break with Trump and about how the

[Katie Fang]

Trump coalition is splintering as some young

[Jessica Tarlov]

conservatives abandon the president and embrace something darker.

[John Finer]

It becomes like, all of a sudden, like, hey, you kids, why you listen to Elvis Presley and that rock music is bad? Like, all of a sudden Fuentes controls the conversation and becomes the cool kid and the net effect is to make the Holocaust a joke. Today explained every weekday wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Welcome back. What I'm curious about, I guess most of all with like, what Tucker Carlson is saying and then even some of the criticisms coming from Megyn Kelly, who then went back and said, like, I'm voting Republican no matter what. Right. Like they could, you could drop a nuclear bomb and I'm still voting Republican. So how serious is some of this purported flipping or dissatisfaction with Trump from the Tucker Carlson's of the world? Because, you know, Tucker is primarily motivated by clicks and dollars, Right? Like, that's how the outrage machine works. Absolutely. But I do think seeing someone who is more of a pop culture figure than certainly a religious figure. Oh.

[Katie Fang]

Cause gosh, forbid the Pope actually call us out for what we're doing. Right? Gosh forbid. The actual man closest to God, you know, he's kind of the authority, is he not on what God would be thinking here? And he said, eh, this is not working for you. But yeah, I agree. Sorry to interrupt. But yeah, I mean, he is a more of a pop culture figure than

[Jessica Tarlov]

anything at this point and the Christianity angle is, is a little bit different for him. I mean, that stuff that you hear from, you know, evangelicals who couldn't abide by Trump from way back in the Access Hollywood tapes, you hear this from Democrats making that criticism about, you know, what Christianity is actually about, you know, helping the poor, helping immigrants, you know, everything that James Talarico etc is talking about. And so it did feel either like a very strategic maneuver because there are more dollars to be made if you go with this angle or that there is something actually brewing. And then by extension, and I want your legal mind on this, there is a lot of chatter about the 25th Amendment now and it is not just Democrats that are doing it. I hate to just like pelt you with clips, but Alex Jones, someone who also needs the dollars, but he was going off about this as well. So let's look at him.

[Katie Fang]

Yeah.

[John Finer]

How do we 25th amendment is ash. The problem is to get the 25th amendment is harder than impeachment. You have to get two thirds of the house and 2/3 of the. So what do we do? Tackle Trump and pretend. Let him pretend he's president and publicly report that he's going through a health issue in advance takeover. It literally needs to be something like that. It's that bad. The I've known you in a long time. You've never called for a internal coup before, ever, ever, ever. But that's how dangerous this is. That's how risky it is for the whole. If I was the Democrats, I'd stop poking Trump and messing with that only makes it worse. Like, you guys need to watch out.

[Jessica Tarlov]

What is going on?

[Katie Fang]

Yeah, yeah. I'm like, I mean, I'm not going to take advice from Alex Jones as a Democrat as to what I should and should not be doing. An internal coup. Fascinating. I find it to be a plot of a really good Netflix series.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Right.

[Katie Fang]

Like let's put a kind of like the Melania has like a stage Melania. Right. Let's put a statue. I really. How do you get out? What's the casting call for the fake Donald Trump? Jessica, really? What is that going to look like?

[Jessica Tarlov]

Like the Timothy Chamberlay is in Washington Square Park.

[Katie Fang]

Yes, right. But, but so you post a fake Trump who's going through a health thing, but he's really just bound and gagged in the Situation Room in the corner and we don't let him out. But Trump already embodies the crazy uncle in the closet anyway energy. So I kind of feel that I guess that works you just shove him in the closet. Um, look, Alex Jones, again, is the clickbait guy. As you said with Tucker, a lot of it is performative. I also think with somebody like Tucker, for the record, he did say, I still love him no matter what he says about me. That's what Tucker said about Trump. Right? Alex Jones is interesting though, because I find impeachment and Section 4, 25th Amendment. I've said on my own channel, these are not mutually exclusive goals. Chess, you can have it all. Why limit ourselves to the crumbs of just impeachment? You can pursue Section 4, 25th Amendment. I actually think J.D. vance has it in him to do this. And I posited yesterday on my show that the reason why is it is ironically the fastest and the most constitutional way for JD Vance to get into the Oval Office, which we all know is end game for JD Endgame is oval. And instead of having to wait until 2029 to do so, as he thinks he could do it now in the throes of 2026, maybe help the Republicans in the November midterms by having new blood, fresh face, and somebody who's not gonna hit the fucking button to end the world in nuclear war. Jaden Vance could get there by way of Section four. You know, Section one, Is Trump dying again? A possibility, but right now Section four is an option. I just don't know if the Cabinet. It's the majority of the cabinet level executive department officers that has to help J.D. vance get there. It can't just be J.D. on his own. So let me be very clear, not only is the threshold of votes from both chambers high, but in even order to get the mini deposing of Trump in the meantime, you need JD Vance and the majority of the cabinet level executive department officers. And I just don't know if Hegseth Rubio and others are gonna have the energy to do it. So if it was just J.D. i think this would have happened before now. I also think that part of the reason why there are no adults that are curbing Trump is a JD Vance palace intrigue kind of thing. I think people know that if Trump steps in enough that maybe some people would support the idea that this effort is crazy. Not crazy like a fox, but just fucking crazy. And that's why Vance would be the appropriate heir apparent to what's going on. I also think sending Vance on an international diplomacy thing like going to Viktor Orban is also another kind of we're blessing you for a role. I mean, there's a lot of Stuff that happens, I'm sure, behind the scenes, about which we have no idea. But I don't think it's a coincidence that Vance signed on as VP to Trump because Vance knew that there was a very real possibility that the 25th Amendment, by hook or by crook, would get him into the Oval. I.

[Jessica Tarlov]

That's so interesting that you think that, because, I mean, it stands also in contrast to the idea that he couldn't even get a diplomatic solution. Right. And he's kind of like the yes man that gets sent around. And I know that there's a maniacal side to him. Like, you don't go from hillbilly elegy is Trump America's Hitler to I want to be vice president and have complete fealty to this man without there being.

[Katie Fang]

He is the epitome of Machiavellian energy. Jess, I don't think it's a coincidence his wife is pregnant right now. How great is it to have a young baby in the White House? I mean, come on. It is like in my. Now, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I do believe that there were a lot of machinations that went into this jest that was not just he would look like a good VP candidate.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Well, definitely Netflix bound. Right. I want to ask you a strategic question, then I want to talk to you about Timothy Snyder's theory about the defense budget and a coup that could be coming. But firstly on the strategy. So you just said we could have it all, right? You could have impeachment and you can have 25th amendment. And as a Democratic strategist and someone that has to live in a conservative media environment, I've been really down on the idea of talking about this stuff because I think that. Well, I think that when people go to vote, they look at their grocery bill more than they are listening to conversations about impeachment. And the president and his allies and the Republican Party, I should say just writ large, has been very successful in weaponizing our weaponizing. Okay? Right. And they're even Mike Johnson is out there saying if Democrats get in, they're going to impeach President Trump. Now, like, don't tempt me with a good time. Right. But there are a lot of people that are not interested in any more what they perceive as lawfare. They're just looking to have health care that they can afford that's decent, to be able to send their kids to a good school, be able to pay for groceries and maybe get to Disney

[Katie Fang]

World, all of which has been taken away by the Republicans. Hundred.

[Jessica Tarlov]

I am. Right. So that, that is my point. So that message to me is one that resonates across all 50 states.

[Katie Fang]

But why can't we have, why can't we do both? Like, why can we not have that conversation about the ask for more money for this war when people can't afford their gas or their health insurance or their chicken?

[Jessica Tarlov]

I am, I'm totally here for both conversations. That one, I guess just like my 1A option and then my 1B option. Because the Republicans, and this has been a problem with Democratic communications since the Obama era, we're not that good at it on a comparative basis. And they are very effective in taking something that might be our 1B or our number 2 or 3 or 4 or 5th point. I mean, they made an entire election seemingly about culture war stuff, right. Where they're saying like they're good.

[Katie Fang]

Gender.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Yeah. War on woke up. Yeah, exactly. Which had an economic undertone to it in the they them ad. But it still was very resonant with people.

[Katie Fang]

Yeah. And look, I don't just. I agree that there has, I think that the Democrats have historically suffered from a. We have so many great ideas, we want to put them all out there. And sometimes that spaghetti on the wall theory doesn't always work. Right. Because only some things stick and some things don't. I do think that there has been a very good move by the Democrats as far back as July of 2025 for the big bullshit bill to really frame the affordability issues in a way that all makes sense because Trump is really making it clear his 1 1/2 mil, 1 1/2 trillion dollar ask for military spend is going to hurt us in small business administration, disaster response loan issues, education, housing, Medicare, health care, low income housing, health care, cancer research, Alzheimer research. I mean, and if you know that the reason why he's doing that is to build up his military, when he parks the military everywhere in every corner of your life, especially vis a vis the elections, it's because he had the money to do it. Right. He built it up so big. When he gives a boost like he wants to give in that 1.5 trillion, Jess. He wants to give the Department of justice like $40 billion or some shit, like something crazy. He wants to give cash freaking Patel of all people, like $11 billion. That guy has no business having $11 billion. So if you think about how it's a literally stealing from Peter to feed Paul, and Paul's the only one who is living in the Trump family because he's not doing it for all Republicans to help them. He's only doing it to help himself and his family and his billionaire buddies. I do think the things have now become inextricably intertwined. I think affordability and impeachment, slash, get, get the crazy guy out of the office, slash we need better representation. I think democracy is a good thing. I think those things can actually live together and not be fighting against each other. I don't think they have to be yin yang on that.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Okay. And then by extension, what do you think of our pal Timothy Snyder, amazing historian, friend of the podcast, is putting out there about this budget? That essentially it's a way to curry favor with the military so that when the time comes to hold on to control even after an election that says that you should be out, that Trump will be in charge still on a permanent or at least semi permanent basis, 100%.

[Katie Fang]

And I think Professor Schneider knows what the hell he's talking about because he's seen it happen in history. It's a, it's a proven, there's, there's evidentiary proof that, that that's how you do it. It is no coincidence, Jess, that his very first appointment, Trump's very first appointment was who? Pete Hegseth. That was his very first one of all the cabinet positions, it was Pete Hagseth, the Secretary of Defense. And there's a reason why Trump has also kind of superficially wanted the military parade for his birthday. Right. Like he wanted to be able to do that. He has always wanted that type of intimacy in terms of his office and the military, because in his mind, he has seen other countries successfully stay in power because they've had military or, for example, Revolutionary Guard. I mean, you have people that are armed to the teeth, loaded for bear, that are there to serve. Only one. Now, I would say, and I think we started this conversation with me saying thank you as well as I appreciate our armed services right now especially. I do think, though, that is a gross, gross miscalculation of our military. I do think it, and I do think that there are people that are not as public as maybe a Dan Kean and others that are stalwart defenders of. My job was never supposed to be politicized. My role as a soldier was never to serve one man. It was to serve an entire country. And that's why my oath has never been to the President of the United States, but to the people. Right to the country of the United States. And so I do think that if Trump thinks boosting his military budget is going to make that much of a difference. I think he's sorely mistaken.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Well, I. I said it when it happened. I'll say it again. Folks like Adam, Admiral Halsey, who left Southern Command when we started shooting those boats in the Caribbean, those are the types of people that we need to be hearing from so that we can understand a bit more about the dynamics within the Pentagon and what people are being asked to do in terms of violating their oath to the US Constitution, not to Donald Trump. Katie Fang, always a blast to have you. Thank you.

[Katie Fang]

Oh, thanks for having me, Jeff.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Before we go, another reminder that not only is Raging Moderates five days a week, we're also available on substack. Subscribers get ad free episodes, which I know you all love. Live streams, place to connect with me, the Prof. G team in general, which includes Scott. Plus you'll get access to the new Raging Moderates newsletter, the Monday Rage. Our first one was out yesterday. Did you like it? Find us at raging moderates proft media.com and we've got our Webby award for best news in politics podcast. I'm gonna ask you again. If you haven't voted, please do vote webbyawards.com if you've already voted, consider doing it again. Or like getting your mom or your dad or boyfriend, girlfriend, whoever. Just people should be voting for us. That's all for this episode. Thank you so much for joining.