Platner Bombshell Throws Democrats Into Chaos

Summary

Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov

Episode: Platner Bombshell Throws Democrats Into Chaos

Date: July 7, 2026
Guests: Jessica Tarlov (Host), Sam Stein (Filling in for Scott Galloway)
Network: Vox Media Podcast Network

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Overview:

This episode dives deep into the fallout from the bombshell sexual assault allegation against Maine Democratic Senate candidate Graham Platner, the ripple effects throughout the Democratic party, and what this scandal exposes about candidate vetting, party factions, and leadership dynamics. Tarlov and guest co-host Sam Stein dissect the crisis in real time, weaving in broader discussions about the progressive movement, political experience versus outsider energy, Israel policy, generational divides in Congress, and even the U.S. performance in the World Cup.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Graham Platner Scandal [03:16]

• Background: An ex-girlfriend, Jenny Racicot, publicly accused Platner of rape (Politico, Jake Tapper interview). Additional accounts of troubling behavior (e.g., from Lindsey Fifield) reinforce a pattern.
• Political Stakes: If Platner drops out by July 13, Maine Democrats can appoint a replacement for the critical race against Sen. Susan Collins (R).
• Potential Replacements: Shannon Bellows, Troy Jackson (progressive favorite), Nirav Shah, Jordan Wood.
• Real-Time Odds: Betting odds of Platner dropping out by Thursday at 58%; hosts agree odds are much higher (“I’m kind of at 99.9%” – Jessica, 06:25).

Quote:

“Regardless of whether you want to define it as sexual assault or rape or whatever, it's disturbing and deeply disturbing… it’s not that it’s an act in a vacuum, it’s obviously part of a pattern… disqualifying at this juncture.”
— Sam Stein, [04:23]

2. The Movement vs. The Messenger [11:48]

• Outsider vs. Insider: Platner’s outsider appeal energized certain voters tired of establishment picks, but the lack of thorough vetting became glaring.
• What Is the "Movement" Anyway? Stein questions whether Platner built an authentic movement, or if followers were animated more by anti-institutional vibes than by substantive issues.
• The Real Work of Vetting: “Kfile found it in like 20 minutes” (the Nazi tattoo), Tarlov notes – highlighting how basic candidate checks were skipped.

Quote:

“What is the movement that we're talking about here? Is it about the person? Because we just met this guy a year ago… or is it the ideals?”
— Sam Stein, [11:48]

3. The Factional Divide and the “Big Tent” [14:12]

• Policy Mishmash: Both note that many “normie Dems” and progressives share similar policy goals (Medicare for All, taxation, criticism of AIPAC/Israel), but differ in tone and method.
• Vibes & Attitude: The real difference is an “all-or-nothing,” “burn it all down” approach vs. incrementalism (“progress is the North Star,” [15:14]).

Quote:

“That progress is not slow but certain… they're like, I want to get into the system and I want to smash the shit out of it. And, well, I think that's what the movement is.”
— Jessica Tarlov, [14:32]

• Experience as Value: Stein contends party should not demonize political veterans; seasoning brings vetting and stronger candidates.

Quote:

“We shouldn't look necessarily at political experience, being in politics, as such a negative. Not everyone who is in politics is utterly cynical and awful…”
— Sam Stein, [15:54]

4. The Toll of Party Purity and Online Discourse [17:50, 28:08]

• Purity Tests: Tarlov discusses feeling boxed in as a moderate Jew defending Platner’s past due to intense social media policing.
• Cable & Online Extremes: Both hosts lament how the pressures of cable news and social media force excessive certainty and erode productive, nuanced debate.

Quote:

“There's no way to conduct a conversation around this stuff online. It's just... kindling for the worst.”
— Sam Stein, [28:08]

5. Mitch McConnell’s Health Crisis and Political Ego [28:24]

• No Transparency on McConnell: Rumors swirl; party rules in Kentucky could lead to a special election if his incapacity is acknowledged before August 3.
• Larger Problem: Elder leaders incapacitate representation; should provoke a real discussion about age, ego, and succession in politics.

Quote:

“There's, like, an immense selfishness, I feel like, among people in politics... The idea that you would hold on... knowing that these things are out there, that you're so special only you can do this... Incredibly selfish.”
— Sam Stein, [29:47]

6. Democratic Factions: Michigan as Microcosm [34:12]

• Stevens vs. El-Sayed in Michigan: Exemplifies establishment vs. DSA-style progressive fight. Energy and campaign style, not just issues, determine momentum.
• General Election Concerns: Tarlov worries that ultra-progressive nominees could jeopardize “must-hold” seats in purple states.

Quote:

“Usually, that's kind of an interesting indication of where the winds are blowing... El-Sayed is, like, in a better spot. He actually is underrated as a general election candidate.”—Sam Stein, [35:25]

7. Israel, U.S. Policy, and the Evolving Litmus Test [40:42]

• Rahm Emanuel’s Speech: Advanced new, critical stance on U.S. aid to Israel; becoming mainstream among Dem leaders.
• Jews Criticizing Israel: Both Tarlov and Stein (openly Jewish) argue that holding Israel accountable strengthens the pro-Israel cause.
• Litmus Tests Shift: As “cutting off military aid” becomes normalized, new tests (“call it genocide?”) quickly replace the old ones.

Quote:

“You need to get into a place where you treat criticism of Israel as actually supporting the idea of Israel.”
— Sam Stein, [43:25]

8. Generational Questions & Retirement in Politics [32:13]

• Why Won’t Elder Politicians Leave? Chuck Grassley, Bernie Sanders, and others are mentioned; the hosts speculate on deeper causes and the consequences of political lifers.
• Speculation: “Why don’t people want to hang out with their families? Or go make money. They make money in office too, nowadays.”

— Jessica Tarlov & Sam Stein, [32:33]

9. U.S. Men's World Cup Loss and American Youth Sports [47:26]

• Trump ‘Curses’ the Team: The U.S. team's loss to Belgium seen partly through the lens of Trump’s meddling and perception manipulation.
• Youth Sports Access: Tarlov highlights how the U.S.’s pay-to-play system excludes talent compared to European models.

Quote:

“There is an important lesson out of this World cup about youth sports culture here and how prohibitively expensive and difficult we make it for kids to get into it. Like in other countries, they invite you and they provide you with all the gear...”
— Jessica Tarlov, [49:17]

• Parenting Woes: Youth sports are a huge burden on parents; “the real victims are the parents.”

— Sam Stein, [51:52]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Platner’s Ouster and Party Standards:
  “At some point, the identity of your soul and the soul of the party kind of do materially matter… if you want to make a distinction between yourself and Republicans on values and character, like, this is where you have to draw those distinctions.”
  — Sam Stein, [26:18]

• On Internal Dynamics:
  “We need, like, a massive couch under the tent for everybody right now. Like, Neera Tanden and Hasan Piker need to get on, like, little couches next to each other and just, like, figure out how we're gonna do this.”
  — Jessica Tarlov, [27:35]

• On U.S. Men’s Team Defeat:
  “When their striker hit the fourth goal in extra time and did the little Trump dance.... They didn't want to just beat us, they wanted to humiliate us and they wanted to humiliate Trump.”
  — Sam Stein, [47:26]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:16] Platner Bombshell: Recounting allegations, vetting failures, odds of candidate replacement.
• [11:48] “What is the movement?”: Defining the progressive/outsider faction vs. the establishment.
• [14:12] “Vibes” vs. Policy: How ideology, attitude, and the anti-centrist mood collide.
• [17:50] Experience & Political Outsiders: The value and cost of newcomers versus seasoned politicians.
• [28:08] Online Discourse: How Twitter/cable news amplify certainty and erode empathy/nuance.
• [28:24] McConnell’s Health: Party succession, rules, age, political ego.
• [34:12] Michigan Race: Establishment vs. progressive showdowns and their implications.
• [40:42] Israel Policy Shift: Rahm Emanuel’s speech, changing Dem litmus tests.
• [47:26] U.S. World Cup Loss: Sports, politics, and youth culture.
• [49:17] Youth Sports Accessibility: Barriers, burnout, and parenting sacrifices.

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Conclusions & Final Reflections

• The Platner scandal is not only a personal or regional Democratic crisis but emblematic of deeper divides and dysfunctions: how parties select leaders, manage factions, and handle scandals.
• Both hosts are frustrated by the performative nature of modern political discourse, intensified by cable news and online rhetoric.
• Party must balance “outsider energy” with the practical necessity of thorough vetting, political experience, and big-tent cooperation.
• Issues of age and succession loom over both parties; urgency for institutional reform is high, but the mechanisms are elusive.
• The shift on Israel signals deeper ongoing transformations within the Democratic coalition.
• Sports, as ever, offer both an allegory and a reality check for larger national challenges—access, competition, and equity.

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For Listeners:

This episode is an incisive, candid, and at times therapeutic reflection on both Democratic implosion and broader themes: authenticity, accountability, consequences of online culture, and how America’s great debates play out in everything from Senate races to soccer fields.

Transcript

[Host 1]

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[Jessica Tarlov]

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[Sam Stein]

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[Jessica Tarlov]

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[Sam Stein]

the Quest for Longevity.

[Host 1]

Find new episodes Sundays wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Some housekeeping before we get started. We have two big substack livestreams this week. First, I'll be potting with my Wednesday co host Aaron Parnas on the Raging Perspective. That's this Wednesday and every Wednesday at noon Eastern. And then on Thursday, I'm going live with Brian Tyler Cohen. We'll be talking about why Republicans have been so effective at wielding power, why Democrats have often failed to use the power they have, and what the left must do to govern in a post Trump era. That is a preview. That's what his book is about. His book is awesome. I have read it. I have also written a blurb. That's how much I liked it. You won't wanna miss it. That's this Thursday, July 9th kicks off at 11:45am Eastern. To catch it live, sign up at ragingmoderates.prof.gmedia.com or click the link in the show Notes. Welcome to Raging Moderates. I'm Jessica Tarlov, and because he's not here to tell you that he's on a yacht. I will tell you that Scott is on a yacht on the coast of Sardinia and Sam Stein, the managing editor of the Bulwark Ms. Now contributor, is filling his I don't even know actually how large Scott's shoes technically are, but they are in podcasting world. They are enormous. So pretty big. Thank you. Pretty big.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. I wish I was on a yacht too, but I'm not, unfortunately.

[Jessica Tarlov]

I'm thrilled to have you here. It is a big day in politics in general, but especially in Democratic politics, and I want to start with what's going on with Graham Platner. Jenny Racicot, who dated him in 2021, detailed a rape scenario to Politico got published yesterday about 3pm she was one of the women that the New York Times had spoken to for their big piece. There's lots of swirl online, especially from Lindsey Fifield, who did come forward with her story about Platner pulling her arm behind her back and shoving her into a bedroom, that this was one of the stories that they could have done more work to be able to bring to light, even though Racicot said in her interview with Jay Tapper yesterday that she didn't want to be known as a rape victim. If Graham Platner drops out of the race by July 13, then the Democratic Party in Maine has a chance to appoint someone else to be the candidate to face off against Susan Collins. That has to happen by July 17. There are a lot of possible replacements, including Secretary of State Shannon Bellows, former Maine Senate President Troy Jackson. He seems to be the favorite of the progressive left right now, former public health director Nirav Shah and former congressional candidate Jordan Wood. Kelsey currently has the odds of Platinum dropping out by Thursday at 58%. I kind of feel like it's today they have also that we still have a 57% chance of winning the seat. Susan Collins scares me. What are your initial thoughts on where all of this stands?

[Sam Stein]

I mean, that's just a lot. Where to begin? I guess the most important thing is the non political stuff, which is that if you read the account in Politico of what happened and transpired, I mean, regardless of whether you want to define it as sexual assaults or rape or whatever, it's disturbing and deeply disturbing. And it's not that it's an act in a vacuum. It's obviously part of a pattern of behavior that now has become just nothing that you could possibly dismiss. And I'm not going to pretend like I'VE been sort of banging on the door saying, platner has to go. You know, I think, you know, on a personal level, I was willing to sort of give the guy a little space to explain some of the stuff in his past. Obviously, as a Jew, I was troubled by the tattoo. And yet I was willing to say, okay, maybe he didn't understand why he got that tattoo, a Nazi symbol tattoo. And certainly there's nothing that I've seen from him that is Nazi behavior beyond that. But at some point, the pattern of the behavior and the repeated sort of denial saying, well, this isn't really true, and it's the fog of memory. It adds up, and it says something about the character in a way that's obviously, I think, disqualifying at this juncture. So that's the personal stuff, and I think that's the most important stuff. The political stuff is a mess. And I spent yesterday talking to people in the Democratic Party about it and what the hell to do about it, and to a person no one thinks he can go on. And I think those cow shots are kind of like, almost hysterically low. Right? Like 58, I guess. Maybe they're doing the odds by Thursday. Thursday, okay, so they're. They're pointing to the date. If you're just saying he's gonna drop out by the 13th, I'd put those odds at, what, 95%? I mean, it's just.

[Jessica Tarlov]

I'm kind of at 99.9%.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, I was giving, like, a little wiggle room for ego where he's like, ah, you know what? I can make this happen. But no, he can't win, even. He just can't win. And so the question now becomes what to do about it? And I was talking to people who worked on. The weird analogy, obviously, is now, like, what happened with Biden in 2024? Obviously different context and circumstances. But, like, what do you do when you have a candidate who pretty much everyone's like, they can't win. We gotta get them off the ballot. It's not easy, obviously, because if you choose someone who is a more quote, unquote, seasoned politician, and by that I mean somebody who's been vetted, who's been around the block, who's in politics and has been, then people who really like Graham Platner who were brought into the process precisely because he wasn't a politician, suddenly they become disengaged. They say, well, this is just the establishment doing their thing again. If you go with someone who's less tested but has More grassroots support. You obviously risk getting into this situation again where you don't have a vetted candidate and you're just holding your breath, hoping that there's not skeletons in the closet, but. And yet you have to do some sort of change. And I was talking to Rob Flaherty about this. He was Kamala Harris's top digital director. And he's like, look, it was awful, it was hard, but had we not switched to Kamala Harris, you know, we lost, obviously, but had we not switched to Kamala Harris, we would have lost a number of Senate seats in 2024. Like, you have to make the change.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Yeah, I absolutely agree. And I should note as well, Graham Platner denies these allegations, but does acknowledge that essentially the position is untenable and he's taking the time to reflect on all of this. I wanted to directly address the troubling, serious and false allegations against me. Any accusation of non consensual behavior is categorically false, regardless of the inaccuracy of the reporting, but mindful the political reality it will inflict.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

We are taking the time to reflect

[Jessica Tarlov]

on the best path forward for the state that I love, the people that I love, the movement I belong to, and the goal of defeating Susan Collins. Those were the goals when we launched this campaign, and they remain my goals today. Every one of you deserves to see that vision come to fruition and see Susan Collins defeated. And we will use every tool at

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

our disposal to do so.

[Jessica Tarlov]

The account is very disturbing on a number of levels, but I have not spoken to one woman of any political persuasion since this came out who doesn't recognize that scenario. And I think that's why it hit particularly hard and it was so swift for everyone to just be like, this guy's gotta go. And I'm not saying that every woman was raped or would allege that they were raped, but the idea of someone who you were in a situationship with, which is how she called it, and you didn't want them to come over, and they came over anyway. And I think her. Her phrase was, I complied, but I didn't consent, is something very resonant with a lot of people. And I guess I shouldn't make it only women because I'm sure the same things happen to men. But in most cases, when you are dealing with a huge size differential and, you know, the alcohol being involved, it's just. It's different. And I can see why this felt palpably different to folks in terms of what comes next on the politics of it you know, I'm curious as to how you feel about the internal party dynamics in this, because, you know, there is for me, as someone as part of, like, the more normie wing, right? Or they call me, you know, I'm a corporate stem or whatever, you know, establishment.

[Sam Stein]

You're an establishment sellout. Normie Dem. Come on.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Legacy media, like, all the things. Well, I pod and, well, we both pod and cable news, so. But it feels like there is a lesson in this about doing the real work of vetting, right? And we all watched the interview with, well, like this Daniel Morath, the guy who found Graham Platner, and was interviewed by the Wall Street Journal, right? And they said, oh, the tattoo didn't come up. And he's like, no, it didn't come up at all. And you're like, well, K file found it in like 20 minutes, right? Like, he wrote about the thing on Reddit. So, like, what did your vetting actually look like? And the left, sans Bernie Sanders, who is still as time of this taping, has not released the statement was very swift, like, get out of here. Right. Hassan Piker was done with it, but now they're saying it has to be Troy Jackson. And why? Well, because he's the heir to the quote, unquote movement, or that's what they're saying. And I appreciated Hannah Pingree's saying statement, you know, she's the Democratic nominee for governor where she said he has to get out, but acknowledged that he built something, right? Like that there is a, a vibe and a, A movement of sorts happening. And you can't just put in like a Janet Mills, which is out of the question. But this is making me angry all over, I guess, about the accommodating of the big tent and like, how we actually deal with the tent, because this is a strike against the. This is what the people want.

[Sam Stein]

Well, let's talk about that. What is the movement? I'm not trying to dismiss, like, what he built because obviously he had a really great following. But also, at the same time, I think we should be honest about, like, no one knew who this guy was a year ago. So why, what is the movement? Like, what, you know, with Bernie, it's a little bit different. Like, because. And everyone's, you know, points to Bernie is kind of the emblem here. But, like, Bernie was a mayor and then a congressman and then a senator, and he had decades of championing these ideals. He pushed for Medicare for all, getting money out of politics. He railed against billionaires and millionaires in his Brooklyn Accent like there was some sort of meat to the bone on the movement, right? Like, so what is the platinum. I'm going to pose the question to you. What is the movement that we're talking about here? Is it a, is it a. About the person? Because we just met this guy a year ago. I'm not trying to denigrate. Well, I guess I can now, but

[Jessica Tarlov]

I think denigrateable at this point.

[Sam Stein]

But, but like. Or is it the ideals? Because plenty of people are talking about the same ideas that he's talking about. So what is the movement? I just don't understand this a little bit.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Well, I think that it is the agenda that is encapsulated in a Bernie Sanders or an Elizabeth Warren. And in defense also of some more moderate Democrats, they're talking about a lot of the same things, right? Like it's now not uncommon to find like a Ruben Gallego, right. Who's like, we got to shut down the border also, let's do Medicare for all, right. Like, it's become a bit of a mishmash of these policies, but I think that it is definitely as progressive as possible on things like taxation and, you know, what the state or the city should provide for you. Like, I'm in New York City, all the Mom Donnie type of stuff. It is a war against centrism in general, right? So that could be Democratic centrism and it could also be Republican centrism, plus Trump. And it's also Israel. And that was a core plank of this. I mean, it was a top three thing that Graham Platner was talking about. And you see that in races all over the country. I want to talk about Michigan as well, Abdul said, talking about it all the time. And Mallory McMurraw really got herself boxed in because she didn't know how to talk about Israel. She couldn't do a Haley Stevens and she couldn't do an Al Sayed and she ended up having to drop out.

[Sam Stein]

So if any main Democrat had those three planks in their platform, critical of aipac, critical of establishment, moderation, pro Medicare for all, would they be fine as a platinum replacement? Or is it attitudinal too, in the way that you kind of go about campaigning?

[Jessica Tarlov]

I think it has a vibes situation to it and it also, it has a, a consultant in common, right. Morris Katz, who's been on a lot of these campaigns. And it, it's a burn it all down mentality. And that progress is not slow but certain. I think that that is very fundamental to Democratic politics. For a very long time, right? You remember the whole, is Hillary Clinton a progressive? And she said, yeah, because I believe in progress, right? And that's what I'm working towards. And you have to get into the system to change the system. And they're like, I want to get into the system and I want to smash the shit out of it. Right? And well, that's, I think that's what the movement is.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, but that's, yes, to me, this is the great irony here because, like, again, pointing to Bernie Sanders, because obviously he is the godfather of all this. Bernie is, you know, has a lengthy track record of being an incrementalist. He does. I mean, it's just true. Like, Bernie was involved in VA reform under Obama and he worked with John McCain on it. And it was about making sure that there were a little bit more, not private options, but more flexibility around VA care. And it's the type of thing that, like, you know, if anyone else did it, people would be like, what the hell? Bernie cast votes for Obamacare. This is the guy who is Medicare for all. But he understood that you get there piece by piece. But Bernie built up credibility and he cast that vote because he understands that you can't just say all or nothing when it comes to legislation. So it's funny to me that there's such this burn it all Dem mentality when, to your point, progress is the ultimate, you know, North Star here. I guess the only other thing I would say, I'm not trying to, like, be, you know, argumentative or, or contrarian here. I just find I, I, I struggle with sort of understanding what the movement is because I think there's a lot of candidates who would, you know, be pretty damn close to those planks that have animated the, the sort of populist Democrats in the current times, but they would never get the attention or love for a variety of reasons. I'm just not sure why. But I do think one of the real takeaways that I've had from this whole platinum mess and what I wrote about today is like, you know, it, there are, like, there's some upside to having a little political seasoning that we should acknowledge, right? Like, it's going through a campaign and experiencing it. Having had a vet going through, like, the campaign and having an oppo file built on you going through a campaign and having Republicans try to tear you down once or twice. It doesn't just build character. It makes sure that your record is pretty clean. And also there's, you know, we shouldn't look Necessarily at political experience, being in politics as such a negative. Not everyone who is in politics is utterly cynical and awful in a corporate shill and a sellout. There are good people who are in politics, and it shouldn't be like a scarlet letter that folks wear. And it doesn't mean you need to back Janet Mills if you're a main Democrat. I mean, no one's saying that, but, you know, this notion that anyone who's ever held elected office is suspect. I think people need to reassess their priors now.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Yeah, I think that's a really important point. And then to also judge their record when they were in that office, because they're thinking they can do things that you like or they can do things that you're not into. But knowing how it works and also knowing your way around the machine is a good thing. I mean, too often. And this is the last thing that I wanna say specifically about the Platner thing, I'm using you also as a bit of a therapy session, because I'm here for you. Thank you. I'm so glad I invited you. Cause Scott would be like, I don't wanna hear about this. He'd be like, don't you have a husband that you can talk to about your feelings? I'm just kidding. Scott's great about my feelings, but it has been way too hard to express how you're feeling about someone like Graham Platner. And that's part of how the party functions right now, that it's just like the purity tests. And, like, if you don't get on board, we're coming after you. And it's been upsetting to me, especially as a Jewish person, to have to find a way to kind of shape shift into, like, a Totenkopf is okay. And I did believe that he didn't know what it was when he got it, but he definitely lied about when he found out what it was and then left it on and, like, partied with it for several years. And so I felt that I was really boxed into a corner in making my arguments. Especially, you know, at Fox, where, you know, this is catnip, right? Like, you have a guy, literally, with a Nazi tattoo who, like, we thought it was just threw someone into a room and, like, pull her arm behind her back. But now, credible sexual assault, rape, allegation, whatever you want to call it, they're just like, it just shouldn't be this hard, right? Like, you just say, this isn't the guy. And then there was a primary, and he was the choice of the voters. And it took me back and you guys had huge amounts of internal conversation with us between Tim and Sarah and yourself about like how Trumpian do you get about this, right? Like how much do you just say, well, the people like him and where do our standards go? Essentially?

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, I mean, now I'm going to get on the couch, jump in.

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[Jessica Tarlov]

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[Host 1]

No one could blame you if you thought this men's World cup was going to be a disaster. The President of the United States isn't exactly a welcome mat for the world, and there have been plenty of embarrassing stories for the country. There was the mom of Kate Verde's goalkeeper who wasn't let into the United States to watch her son play until the team started doing well and people closed clamored for her entry. The team from Dr. Congo hadn't made a Men's World cup in 52 years and hardly made this one because the United States was supposedly worried about Ebola, even though no one on the team had Ebola. If you were watching Senegal Norway last week and were wondering where all the Senegalese fans were, they weren't let into the country. But you probably noticed we let in like a million Vikings. I wonder what's different about their fan base. Oh, and who could forget we're literally bombing one of the countries that up until Friday was playing here.

[Sam Stein]

Missiles aren't the problem, but.

[Host 1]

But somehow the vibes at this World cup are mostly positive. The World cup might just be healing us on Today. Explained from Vox.

[Sam Stein]

Sarah Longwell and I had a pretty long podcast about this after the first New York Times story, more or less. I was like, yeah, I am like really conflicted and I think it's okay to be like conflicted. Like we don't have to be so certain. I mean, obviously the online discourse and certainly the jobs you and I have, you more than me on cable, it makes you have like, makes you take incredibly certain positions and you're kind of like compelled to speak with conviction and make your point without sort of acknowledging that you might have self doubt or nuance. And for me, Platner really kind of exposed a lot of kind of like these tricky questions that you go about when you judge people who are running for elected office and how much leeway you give them and how, you know, how you judge a vote based on character versus political outcomes and things like that. And there was a real discomfort I felt with the guy for a variety of reasons, but I Understood simultaneously that there are other objectives out there. There are other calculations to be made. Control of the Senate being one of them. The will of the main voters, obviously being one of them. The idea that people can, in fact, change and improve over their lives and grow. The idea that serving in a war overseas, which I've never done, can't even possib comprehend, might actually emotionally impact people in ways that are incomprehensible to me. So, like, all that stuff was in my head at the time. Now I've gotten to a place, obviously, with more revelations where, you know, there's more clarity to how I feel about this. And this latest story really is a bar above what the Times reported when he was engaged in what appeared to be an act of domestic violence. This is, like, far worse. And, you know, I'm just discomforted by the entire idea to the point where it's, like, quite easy and clear for me to speak out about it. I will say this. Some of the stuff around you mentioned, how Trumpy should you be? I do think that's kind of underappreciated in a way. Right. Like, I do think Democrats. I mean, we saw that Sarah saw this in her focus groups. And there's, like, a really interesting piece up that we put up last night about main Democratic focus groups.

[Jessica Tarlov]

They were like, look, I read it.

[Sam Stein]

They're like, look, he can do whatever. There's one line he can't cross, and that's sexual assault. Well, he crossed it, it appears. But even in that moment, there were people in the focus groups who were like, you know what? Fuck the Republicans. They all rallied behind Donald Trump. They set a new standard. Like, this is not. Why are we playing by an entirely different set of rules? And I get it. I do. But also, at some point, the identity of your soul and the soul of the party kind of do materially matter. And I think you do have to say, you know, if you want to make a distinction between yourself and Republicans on values and character, like, this is where you have to draw those distinctions.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Yeah, I read the piece, and I've listened to you guys talking about it a lot. And that is, I guess, where I felt like my line was, where I would stop saying, you know what I really want? I want that seat. And I know that Graham Platner will not vote for a new Supreme Court justice. And how Collins handled the Kavanaugh is something that really sticks with me, that she still runs around, you know, being like, oh, I'm pro choice, blah, blah, blah. And I don't Regret it. These stories came out, actually, in a way that protects the party more than they needed to. Right. And Jenny Racica is a Democrat. She talks about how conflicted she was in doing this because she wants to win. Right. Like, she wants Susan Collins out. And for her to be replaced by someone with her political values, it was an issue of her human values. Right. And obviously something specifically happened to her. And Lindsey Fifield said the same thing where she said, I'm giving you time. Right. Like, you have an out clause, essentially. And I guess we should just be thankful that it is possible that we will have a candidate who could maybe be Susan Collins. But this is a. Has a lot of lessons, I think, for the party and how we select people, how we treat each other within this larger tent that everybody is working to make as accommodating as possible to people with similar underlying values, but different policy preferences or action plans, however you wanna see it. And it feels like we need, like, a massive couch under the tent for everybody right now. Like, Neera Tanden and Hasan Piker need to get on, like, little couches next to each other and just, like, figure out how we're gonna do this. Because that's the weirdest image.

[Sam Stein]

No, but so much of. So much of it. Don't you feel like so much of this is just like. I mean, this is not Twitter. All of it. Yeah. It's just like the perniciousness of the online discourse. I mean, you can't. There's no way to conduct a conversation around this stuff online. It's just. It's awful. It's just kindling for the worst.

[Jessica Tarlov]

And the tweets last forever, as we're seeing from. Some pals are getting raked over the proverbial coals. I want to talk about Mitch McConnell who has went into the hospital three weeks ago. Initially, Senator Thune said. Or I should say Leader Thune. You know, he's doing well now. There's been no communication with him. Allegedly, Mike Lee posted. He's like, we have no idea what's going on. His wife is in China. His daughter has deleted her Twitter account. There are rumors swirling that he is brain dead. That has not been confirmed by a news outlet, as far as I know. But everyone is asking questions suddenly. I don't know why they weren't asking questions two weeks ago. The way that the rules work in Kentucky, if we don't know that he can't fulfill his duties before August 3, then there would be a special election. It used to be an appointment like Andy Beshear would get to a point, then there would be a special election. Now those rules have changed. So after August 3rd, then nothing happens. And I've, you know, read that the Republicans want to make sure that Thomas Massie doesn't get in there, you know, run as an. In a D, a D I candidate. Right. And so what do you think is going on with Mitch McConnell?

[Sam Stein]

It's. No one knows. And, I mean, look, he was obviously in horrible health prior to this episode. He had multiple episodes of falling. If anyone who was walking around on the Hill, our congressional correspondent, would note he looked terrible. He was then put in a wheelchair and pushed around. He seemed absent mentally. He obviously had a couple episodes a few years back where he just went vacant. So, you know, not great, obviously. 84 and clearly, at this juncture, incapable of doing the job. Can he return? I mean, I suppose, but there's not really much of a track record for people, like, turning it around at this age, at this condition. And it just gets back to sort of. I mean, I'm not trying to tie everything into a neat little bow, but let me try. There's, like, an immense selfishness, I feel like, among people in politics, and I suppose that's part of the business. Like, you have to have an incredible ego to feel like you deserve to serve the people and that they should elect you and all this stuff. And then when you do get elected, whether it's majority leader of the Senate or President of the United States, you certainly have an ego because you are elected. But the idea that you would hold on and do what you're doing or continue to run, in Platner's case, continue to run for office knowing that these things are out there, that, like, you're so special that only you can do this and only you can withstand the scrutiny. Basically, humanity depends on you sticking it out. It's incredibly selfish. And right now, the people of Kentucky have one senator, one person voting for them, and we don't know when they'll get another one. And I find that ridiculous. We're supposed to be representative democracy, and that means you have people who are there to represent you. And Mitch McConnell probably, almost as certainly should not have run for reelection the last time. And now he's in a world of hurt, and it's leaving people without the proper representation that they deserve. I don't know what is going on with him, but clearly it's a bad situation. And we really. You would have thought that the whole Biden experience would have taught us to have more of A stern conversation about age in our political system, but we still need to have that conversation.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Yeah, I mean, I understand everybody ages at a different rate, but even looking at, you know, Chuck Grassley's posts, right. And he's still doing, you know, all 99 counties and his wife is still out in the cornfields and like, all of the cute 72 years of marriage situation that they're doing. Like, why don't people want to hang out with their families?

[Sam Stein]

Right? Like, well, let's not ask. I don't know.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Maybe. I don't know. Yeah, but you know what I mean? Like, or go families.

[Host 1]

You don't want.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

Go make money. Yeah, well, they make money. They make money in office too, nowadays. You need some hobbies, for sure. Like, I agree. Like, Chuck Grassley, like, I'm proud of him. He's got his little vacuum that he's always tweeting about and things like that. He seems pretty young for a 90. Whatever. You're old. But, like, there's. Go do something else. Like, this can't be it. And honestly, like, you are not, like, I was not gonna, like, fall apart if you are not at center.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah, you.

[Sam Stein]

You're probably bringing home a bunch of stuff to the. Your seniority and it does benefit them, but, like, at some point you should just hand off the responsibilities to someone else. And that's true of a lot of people across the spectrum.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Oh, yeah, definitely. I hope that lessons will be learned by the next election.

[Sam Stein]

I doubt it.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Well, I honestly, I think that to some degree, this faction that we're talking about, like, whether you want to call it the DSA left or progressive left or whatever, is going to be so loud that it'll be really tough to not do that. Like, I. I can't see a scenario where Chuck Schumer can keep going and run for reelection again here.

[Sam Stein]

No, but. How old is Bernie Sanders?

[Jessica Tarlov]

184.

[Sam Stein]

I just looked it up. They're not going to push him out. I mean, it's always, you know, it's

[Jessica Tarlov]

always the good age. Yeah. It's like. Yeah. Who has. Yeah. And I mean, Elizabeth Warren with her Ponds cream. She looks like she's 50. So she looks pretty good.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, I'll give her that.

[Jessica Tarlov]

She looks awesome. I want to hop over to Michigan. Similar themes of what we're talking about. So now we're down to two candidates. Haley Stevens and Abdul Al said this race now I think is like the perfect microcosm of the tension within the party. Right. Like Chuck Schumer and the dscc, like everyone establishment lining up behind Haley Stevens, Abdul Al said getting the progressive left and, and some like, normie endorsements too, but seems to have a lot of momentum on his side. Do you think that, like, up until now, and I rarely say this, I shouldn't say that I, I like a lot of what Rahm Emanuel says, but I particularly liked when he said that these districts are going from blue to cobalt blue. Right. Like what's happening in New York City, for instance, or, you know, Colorado's first district. Right. Like these were already D plus 50 seats or whatever. But do you think that the DSA style left can pull off a statewide win, like in a Michigan.

[Sam Stein]

So you're saying in a general or in a primary?

[Jessica Tarlov]

Both.

[Sam Stein]

Okay. Yeah. I think look, in a part of me for sure, I'll say, do you

[Jessica Tarlov]

expect him to win?

[Sam Stein]

I mean, I haven't pulled up my Cal shots recently, but yeah. Okay.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Yeah. No, but I mean, it's just you pay attention to it like, as much as I do. Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

So I would at this juncture and I, I trust. So we have a reporter here, Jonathan Cohen, who's based in Michigan. He's been into a bunch of these rallies and he's got his sort of finger to the pulse of what's going on there more than I do. And his take is like, you know, there's one person who's campaigning with joy and purpose and energy and vigor and excitement, and there's another person who is campaigning not scared, but like, tentatively and trying to like, hold the coalition together. And usually, like, that's kind of an interesting indication of where the winds are blowing. And his take is that El said is like, like, you know, in a better spot. Now, he also believes that he, he actually is underrated as a general election candidate, that there was a lot of angst about it for obvious reasons. I mean, you don't need to, like, be a genius to understand why, but that like, you know, he's a very accomplished campaigner and that he can actually, he's not as big a liability as some conventionalism holds. To your point, Michigan's a different testing ground than New York City or that district in Colorado because it is a purple state. But the primary electorate, even in these purple states are trending more or less. And this is, you know, I don't want to paint with too broad a brush because I do think there's plenty of examples we could turn to where more moderate or district friendly candidates were winning their primaries. I mean, you can even look back at you know, when Zaron won his mayoral election, you know, the two governors who won for Democrats were Normie Dems, right? Like, and that was Jersey and Virginia. So it's. I, I'm still not at the point where it's like, oh, we're in a full blown DSA takeover. I don't think that's true. But I do think in a, in a state like Michigan at this point in time, given the dynamics and, and I think it's fair to say Haley Stevens has not run the best campaign ever. That he definitely is the favorite at this point.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Yeah, I'm totally with you. I mean, the big takeaway from recent election nights for me were, you know, like, Kate Conley, who's going to run against Mike Lawler and hopefully beat him. You know, Bob Brooks in Pennsylvania. This, you know, the blue collar brigade, like, they're still not run. They're not potentially in position to flip seats, which is what we need to do or to hold a tough seat. And that's what this Michigan seat is. I mean, Mike Rogers is a pretty good candidate. He only lost to Slotkin by what, one and a half, two points? It was very close. And I think that that's, you know, folks anxiety. Like, you get to the general and people are just like, this is.

[Sam Stein]

Oh, yeah, like, if you don't win this. Yeah, if you don't win this. If you don't win this.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Right.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Like, Maine doesn't matter. Right. Like, we're talking about, you know, Josh Turek and it's like, oh, you couldn't even hold Michigan.

[Host 1]

I'm stand up comedian John Marco Cerezi.

[Sam Stein]

And I'm actor penis model Russell Daniel.

[Host 1]

The downside is our podcast where we bring on guests to talk about how miserable their lives are because, let's face it, things are not getting better. Every episode we talk about what's wrong with our lives, our guests lives, the world, but in a fun way. Bottom line is you're gonna walk away feeling better about your life. We've had so many cool guests. Caleb Huron.

[Sam Stein]

Busy Phillips.

[Host 1]

Stavros Halkias.

[Sam Stein]

Laverne Cox.

[Host 1]

Hassan Piker. Alana Glaser. I promise you're gonna have a good time. Now on the Vox Media podcast network,

[Sam Stein]

this is the Downside. I'm Seth Matlins. My new show creator, Destroy Reimagining Marketing explores how every decision a company makes, not just the marketing ones, but the

[Host 1]

hr, ir, pricing, org design and planning ones.

[Sam Stein]

The ones most don't consider marketing at all contribute to I creating value or destroying it. Each week I sit down with CMOs, CEOs, founders, cultural thinkers, the people building, breaking and reimagining how businesses grow or don't for conversations about what creates value and what destroys it. It's a business show, it's a marketing show. Creator destroys the show that argues they've always been the same thing. From the Vox Media podcast network and the Wisdomist Company. New episodes drop week weekly on YouTube and your favorite podcast app.

[Host 1]

A lot of us probably grew up with mountains of video game stuff, cartridges, consoles, discs, other discs, broken discs, more discs, everything. And now it seems like those discs are gone. This week on the Vergecast we're talking about why the gaming industry is going to all digital and what it means that that's going away. Plus whether Rivian can take on Tesla, whether any of us can figure out how to vibe code, and much more. On the Vergecast, wherever you get podcasts,

[Jessica Tarlov]

I already got into this a tiny bit. Well, I mentioned Rahm Emanuel and we talked about or we said Israel. So now I want to mash them together because he is in Israel and he's going to give a big speech which he has leaked early so that we can all talk about it on podcasts like this. And it very much represents a departure for Rahm and how he talks about Israel and I guess what a Rahm Emanuel presidency would look like vis a vis Israel. You know, certainly stopping aid is something that's become pretty mainstream within the party. I think there were only eight senators that voted to keep sending offensive aid to Israel. You know, needs major changes to the government in a speech. I feel as a liberal Jew that this is a very helpful thing that he's doing, that he's changing the bar for what, you know, Zionists can say and think about Israel and what their policy platform would look like. But curious what your read on it is.

[Sam Stein]

Well, I, I agree with you that it's helpful to see and I think whether you think Rom's trying to catch up to trends or getting ahead of them, like whatever, it's, I think this is a low key, important moment. I'm also sort of of the mindset that it's, we should consider it kind of low hanging fruit at this point in time. And Netanyahu himself has been like, yeah, we, you can cut off aid, we're fine, we should be independent. So it's like, okay, cool, let's do it. Also, Netanyahu is like, you know, ignoring the state, the, the country's Supreme Court at this point in time. And if you can't be like actually that really good ethical behavior for government. We shouldn't support that. Then like you got a problems. And you know, obviously, look, put it this way. I'm of the mindset as an American Jew who loves Israel, who is bar mitzvahed in Israel, who believes Israel should be a state, that there should be a Jewish state, that it is inherently important and healthy for Jewish people to be critical of Israel when Israel does things wrong. The idea that you should just be lockstep supportive of Israel because you are Jewish is fundamentally wrong, honestly, because that's. There is an important independent mindset that is part of the Jewish experience and there's an important element of self criticism that is part of the Jewish experience. And you cannot simply just say, well, because it's Israel, because I'm Jewish, therefore I must support what Israel is doing. That's a dangerous path to go down. And so Ram obviously is Jewish. He's obviously doing this in political context. But I think there's something greater to this which is you need to get into a place where you treat criticism of Israel as actually supporting the idea of Israel. And that's where my head's at.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Do you think that this. So I agree with all. Well, I wasn't actually bat mitzvahed, much to everyone's disappointment, let alone in Israel. No, I know there's still time. Yes, it is low hanging fruit. And I guess. Do you think that this kind of litmus test of is Israel creating a genocide going to go away if everybody shifts to Rom's position now or Slotkins or John Ossoff's or Warnock, like any of the kind of the fighter normies. I don't even know what to call this cohort. Right. Like they're the ones that clearly understand the moment, but also win in purple places and know that a coalition has to be built from the far, far left to moderate Republicans, essentially. Like that's our tent now.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, I think they're always gonna, you know, the, it diffuses some of it. But I'm pretty sure that there will always be some litmus test. Right. It's like, okay, it was, you know, cutting off aid to Israel was a litmus test, but now that everyone's for it, well, will you say that what happened in Gaza is genocide? That's the new litmus test. And if you can use that word or not, or should the Netanyahu administration be prosecuted for this in the International Criminal Court? Is that a litmus test? There's always going to be some sort of level at which point someone can distinguish themselves. And I do think, as noted in our Platner discussion, the degree to which this was an animating purpose of his candidacy. I mean, he. Even in like, the depths of the scandals that came prior to the latest one, his retort was often, well, you know, Apex, you know, behind the scenes trying to, you know, engineer my demise, and they support Susan Collins and all this stuff. It's like, you know, that was his boogeyman. So I do think it's helpful to see. It's helpful on just a strictly policy ground to see Rahm and others take a position that is in line with the NAHU government's position, but also makes logical sense at this juncture to slow down military aid to Israel. I don't think it's going to solve all the issues that necessarily will have. He'll have with the base.

[Jessica Tarlov]

No, I think, yeah, I. It's almost, in some ways it helps him, but he is also helping other people who would honestly occupy the same lane.

[Sam Stein]

He's saying, it's okay to do this. I'm gonna, I, I'll show you the way. And if I can do it, certainly you can do it. Yeah.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Right. As someone who also relies heavily on his Jewish heritage and his, you know, family's immigrant story and all of it, it is definitely.

[Sam Stein]

And we do have two other very prominent Jewish Democrats out there and on waiting to decide about what to do in 2028, and that's Josh Shapiro and John Ossoff, obviously. Ossoff obviously has a election beforehand, but it is going to be interesting to see how they navigate these waters, too.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Yeah, I mean, I. Right. And Slotkin is Jewish, too, and she certainly seems like she's interested in being in the conversation. Yes. Josh Shapiro for sure. And I find a lot of people don't seem to know that Jon Ossoff is Jewish. So. Sorry we blew your cover.

[Sam Stein]

Hey, it's not blowing. You're not blowing a cover. You're. You're promoting a good. Here we go.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Yeah. You always got to amplify the tribe. I did Donald TRUMP Curse the U.S. men's soccer team. I. Yeah, like the Knicks first. Like his one game. He goes. But like, how disappointing was last night and how terrible do you think Flo felt through the whole thing? I saw the Belgian coach saying, like, he came to talk to me afterwards and he's such a good guy and he knew how terrible the whole situation was. It's like, it's just too much.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, well, curse is a I'll use the word curse, sure. But like, you know, there was like a lot of great vibes happening with the team, even with the red card. You know, it was a, it was like a shitty thing to happen. And, you know, the call itself was relatively controversial. But, you know, people who, I don't play that close attention, but people who do were like, yeah, like, you can see why they gave a red card and you just got to kind of live with it. But you could also use it to your advantage. You know, we're being, you know, we're undermanned, but we're going to fight back and we're going to, you know, we're going to like stick it to the Belgium and. And then he, Trump intervenes and he turns the entire script. All the sort of momentum that we had on its head and suddenly we're the ones manipulating the rules and so that our best striking could get on the field and we become the object of ridicule and anger as opposed to the object of fascination and passion. And I do think that matters. I think there was like, you know, whether or not people needed additional motivation in the World cup, who knows? But goddamn, like, the Belgian players seem to be extra motivated to like, stick it to us. And when their striker hit the fourth goal in extra time and did the little Trump dance and send f you to the crowd, you could tell, like, they wanted to. Absolutely. They didn't want to just beat us, they wanted to humiliate us. They didn't have to do the fourth goal. We had lost. They could have gone into the corner and kicked it around and wasted some time, but they absolutely wanted to destroy us and they wanted to humiliate Trump. So, yeah, I think the President stepped in it.

[Jessica Tarlov]

I'm willing to say that that's very bold of you. I'll just say the Belgians posted overturned this, but on a meta level. And you have little kids as well and like, I don't know how old they are.

[Sam Stein]

Six and nine.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Six and nine. Okay, so you're in the. I'm behind you at four and two. But like, they're starting to. The four year old at least is starting to like things, right? Like she likes gymnastics more than she likes soccer and like we're figuring it all out. And I think there is an important lesson out of this World cup about youth sports culture here and how prohibitively expensive and difficult we make it for kids to get into it. Like in other countries, they invite you and they provide you with all the gear that they need and they'll pick you up and take you to make sure that you can participate in these things. It's like real community behind it. Like, that was the project in Norway, right? And look where they ended up out of this. I mean, I know that this is kind of like a miracle run for them, but I was thinking about that aspect of it that like, we just. It's too hard to engage on a competitive level with these sports. Like the stories of what families have to do to get their kids to like AAU basketball or, you know, football, etc. It's harrowing stuff, especially if you don't have means.

[Sam Stein]

No doubt about that. Youth sports culture is. It's horrifying. I say that as someone who coached my eldest baseball team for the past couple years and I found myself like, you know, I was like trying to guard against like doing the over competitive coach dad thing. But like, you know, I kind of, I was like, I got admonished by the umpires for calling for like getting upset at some of the balls and strikes. And I'm like reading the emails that I'm getting from, like, what is happening to me? I gotta stop this. But you know, it's. It does sort of. It is a factory, put it that way. And so when you're young and you want to like, you know, get into sports, it's almost like you can't. Unless you're like really good and exceptional at it, you can't really do it. And then on top of that, the financial resource and the parental commitments, like, one of my kids is on a swim team and we do. It's awful. I mean, luckily he's good enough at swimming that it's like you can watch it and enjoy it. But to the folks out there who have kids do not do swimming, it is the worst parenting experience. You do three hours of sitting at overheated pool, it's muggy and miserable, and you watch your kids for like 30 seconds twice in those three hours. And that's it. That's it. And so anyways, your point is valid. It's a huge commitment. But the real victims are the parents.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Always us. Also, swim is so early in the morning, like throughout life. And I want to.

[Sam Stein]

Did you swim?

[Jessica Tarlov]

No. I played tennis through college and I thought about this a lot. Obviously we had the Williams sisters, but there's been huge racial barriers to tennis. Right. And watching Coco golf at Wimbledon. And I'm just like, think how many Coco Gauffs there probably were out there who just were not given the access or we didn't make these incredible sports and these incredible communities available to them, and, like, maybe we would've won that game. I don't know. Everything Trump touched, Marcoliah said yesterday. He's like, everything Trump touches turns corrupt. It's not that it dies, it just turns corrupt.

[Sam Stein]

Well, he corrupts it. Yeah.

[Jessica Tarlov]

Yeah, he does. Sam Stein, it was awesome to have you. Thank you for joining me, Jessica.

[Sam Stein]

This was like a life experience for me, wasn't it? I've been waiting. I've been waiting for this invite for months, maybe years, and I finally got it, and I was circling on my calendar, and now that it's happened, it lived expectations.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

Yes. 100.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Okay.

[Sam Stein]

Thank you.

[Jessica Tarlov]

You'll do it again?

[Sam Stein]

No, Sam.