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- [00:00]
Peter Diamandis
The single most important element you need is a mindset of curiosity and agility and adaptability. You have to believe this technology is not happening to you, but happening for you.
- [00:11]
Salim Ismail
How do you organize for this all the mechanisms, both our organizations from a private sector perspective, but also our institutions are breaking in front of the face of all of this technology.
- [00:20]
Raoul Pal
It is almost impossible for any institution in any industry to understand how to even focus a business strategy that can go longer than 12 months.
- [00:29]
Peter Diamandis
12 weeks.
- [00:30]
Raoul Pal
Yeah, let alone 12 weeks.
- [00:32]
Salim Ismail
Our institutions are all centralized. When I mean institutions, I mean healthcare, journalism, legal systems, intellectual property, governance systems. And we need to decentralize them.
- [00:41]
Peter Diamandis
People are very fearful and a lot of institutions are promoting that fear. But I think the only knob that let's use the United States government at the moment has to use when level of job loss increases is going to be some version of giving out cash. It's Covid checks all over again.
- [00:57]
Raoul Pal
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- [03:24]
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- [04:25]
Raoul Pal
Peter, fantastic to get you back on Real Vision.
- [04:28]
Peter Diamandis
Always a pleasure my friend. It's been too long and the world has changed 10 times over since we spoke last.
- [04:34]
Raoul Pal
Yeah, we'll talk about exponentials in a bit. And Salim, welcome to Real Vision. You've never been on. It's your first time. So give yourself a bit of an intro as well.
- [04:41]
Peter Diamandis
Can I do my intro for Salim?
- [04:43]
Raoul Pal
Yeah, go on.
- [04:44]
Peter Diamandis
I love Salim. He's my co host on Moonshots. He was a co founder of Singularity University with me and Ray. He was our first president of the university. He is author of Exponential Organizations. I had the pleasure of co authoring the follow on book with Salim and he runs Exponential Organizations as a worldwide group of incredible thinkers and just a brilliant individual on all things exponential.
- [05:17]
Raoul Pal
Amazing.
- [05:18]
Salim Ismail
That's very kind. I'm just a little bit of color. I'm from India originally schooling university in Canada, 10 years in Europe, last 20 years in the U.S. i'm quite confused.
- [05:29]
Raoul Pal
You're quite the same as me being half Indian. Lived in India, lived in Spain, lived in England and lived in the Cayman Islands. So yeah, we're the same boom without
- [05:40]
Peter Diamandis
the Cayman Islands though. I mean Cayman Islands adds a little bit of, you know, sunshine and flavor and warmth.
- [05:47]
Salim Ismail
And mystery.
- [05:49]
Raoul Pal
And mystery, exactly. But yeah, no, it's nice. So guys, I don't really know where to start because there's a lot to talk about, but I think sling. Why don't you give us what you're focused on right now because we've got all sorts of. I'm sure we'll branch into 100 different conversations. But where's your focus at the moment?
- [06:06]
Salim Ismail
My focus is twofold. One is via moonshots. We're kind of seeing the cutting edge of technology and all the most latest breaking impact with the trajectory of that. But my real interest is how do you organize for this all the mechanisms, both our organizations, from a private sector perspective, but also our institutions are breaking in front of the face of all of this technology. And probably my biggest interest in is how do we rebuild all of our institutions for the 21st century.
- [06:36]
Raoul Pal
Fascinating, because I've been developing a theory very grandiosely called the universal code, of which part of this is. It's the basic process by which the universe seems to operate, which is converting units of energy into units of intelligence. And right. We're in the middle of what. How I started defining this exponential age that we've all talked about is when technology is advancing faster than the institutions and the infrastructure that we currently have where it suddenly doesn't make sense anymore. And that's really where you are kind of directly focus. Because it is almost impossible for any institution in any industry to understand how to even focus a business strategy that can go longer than 12 months. Yeah. Let alone 12 weeks. I mean don't forget like agents got launched what, November, December, and now they're everywhere. It's like the rate of change is truly beyond anybody's hyper exponential.
- [07:37]
Peter Diamandis
Right.
- [07:38]
Raoul Pal
In fact, just before we go into that, there was an amazing chart that ARK put out which was the annual number of words put out by all humans each year. So that was coming from the Gutenberg press, like 1500. And then AI is now producing more output per year than humans. Now, by 2028, it will have put out more than the entire combined writing of all of humanity's history. Right. This is not exponentials anymore. These are like Metcalfe's law squared. This is Reid's Law happening everywhere. So, Salim, talk us through what you even talk to institutions and companies and organizations about with this.
- [08:19]
Salim Ismail
Well, we wrote this book called. It's important to go back a little bit in history here. Are you familiar with what's called Coaser's law? No. So 1937, an economist called Ronald Coase writes a paper called the Nature of the Firm. And he theorizes that companies will get bigger because transaction costs and coordination costs of activity inside a company are cheaper than outside. He actually won the Nobel Prize for this paper. And the theory of the firm has descended from that. Added to that, you have a liability container and a fiduciary obligation as part of that. But primarily the reason for a company was you had cheaper transaction costs inside. When we wrot the exo book starting in 2014, and then Peter and I did the second edition in 2023, we actually declared Coase's Law obsolete because transaction costs inside a company are now more expensive than doing things outside. Right. The CEO, Jack. Well, CEO of GE, said in his annual report in the year 2000, if the metabolism of your company is slower than the outside world, you're dead. The only question is when.
- [09:25]
Raoul Pal
You could.
- [09:26]
Salim Ismail
You could argue that the metabolism of almost every company in the world. Yeah. Is slower than the outside world. Right. So this is a structural change. So we're actually writing a technical economics paper right now basically saying Coaser's Law does not apply. And essentially now we move to an agentic AI model, which is using API calls to stretch outside the organization. And we're decentralizing all the centralized functions we have to happen in an organization. The reason I'm so passionate about this is Peter talks about abundance. And I know you're heavily into, like, the decentralized world. You. You can't reach abundance with a centralized architecture.
- [10:02]
Peter Diamandis
You can't reach the. You can't reach the full potential of abundance.
- [10:05]
Salim Ismail
We've reached nowhere near. Right. Centralization always brings things together, and decentralization allows you to scale. So we have to move to that other architecture. And the challenge is that all of our institutions, when I mean institutions, I mean healthcare, journalism, legal systems, intellectual property, governance systems, are all centralized, and we need to decentralize them. And this is where technology comes in very powerfully.
- [10:28]
Raoul Pal
Yeah. As part of this universal code, one of the observable structures that is everywhere is a network. The neural network, whether it's boss imagery of the solar system, down to Mycelia, down to the human body, all compute. It seems that all intelligence is built upon networks. And I think it's the only way, as you say, to be able to deal with the rate of change. It has to be decentralized because you can't have a central decision making authority. But that becomes really hard for everything else breaking apart, whether it's the IMF to the World bank, to the United nations, to the entire infrastructure. Can't deal with this. We can't even regulate AI because it's moving too fast.
- [11:09]
Salim Ismail
No, we can't.
- [11:10]
Raoul Pal
You can't even regulate crypto, it's moving too fast.
- [11:12]
Salim Ismail
Yeah, we haven't even gotten around to regulating the Internet properly. Right. There was a car crash with a couple in it that, in an Uber and they were suing Uber. And then one day the 12 year old daughter of the couple uses Uber eats. And part of the terms of service is you waive any right to sue. And so their, their lawsuit gets invalidated by the fact that this 12 year old happens to use UberEats to order something. Right. And so we can't even get that right before we even add AI to anything else in the mix. So we've got a huge challenge in front of us to how to navigate this.
- [11:44]
Raoul Pal
Yeah, but you can't really go to McKinsey and say, oh by the way guys, you just need to decentralize. They're just going to go fuck off. Well, because their source of power is centralization 100%.
- [11:57]
Salim Ismail
This is a completely new paradigm. We see the early flavors of this like Burning man, the open source movement, the DIY movement, the maker movement. We're seeing as Peter talks about as 6Ds, where we demonetize and democratize. That's the secret. Because then it gives power to every single individual as a node in the network and the collective intelligence is much more powerful.
- [12:19]
Peter Diamandis
You know Celine, one of the things that you've talked about, we've talked about in the, in the book we wrote is the historic system was one in which you gathered a bunch of resources inside and you put up a wall and you metered out the resources a little bit at a time and you charged an extraordinary amount for that. And of course that was the scarcity model. In the new model you can't do that anymore. Those resources, you know, the most, the greatest force in the universe is intelligence. It differentiates humans from everything else on the planet. And that all of a sudden has gone to a near zero inference cost. And so when intelligence is free, at the end of the day, what are you actually selling? And so this is going to be one of the biggest challenges we have right now is how do you remain relevant when all of these models are demonetizing, dematerializing, democratizing globally at a rate of.
- [13:11]
Raoul Pal
And Peter, the other thing is, you know, once you go to the infinite intelligence model, which is where we're at, I mean, you can see it happening everywhere. How does society cope? I mean, you must get this question a lot from people. I mean, it's like the political system can't deal with this and nor can people. We saw the Molotov cocktail thrown at Sam Altman's house and this is just the start.
- [13:32]
Peter Diamandis
Yeah. So one of my biggest concerns, and Salim and I have talked about this again at length, is and I did a podcast on Moonshots with Elon at the beginning of this year and we talked about are we going to have social unrest or universal high income? His point, and he said we're going to have both. And so one of my biggest concerns isn't we're going to reach abundance in its full glory. And I think we're going to get there in the six to ten year timeframe. But it's what occurs in the interim between today and that six year period of time. And we're going to have a level of social unrest and a lot of it is due to fear mongering. People are very fearful and a lot of institutions are promoting that fear. We can talk about, is it Marc Andreessen? No, we're not going to lose jobs. We have more jobs than ever before. Or is it Daria Amadei? Majority of all white collar labor is going to be replaced by AI. We have these two opposite positions and both are true in some degree. We can talk about why both are true and what's going to happen, but in the interim we're going to have. The fact of the matter is college graduates are the group of society that are out of jobs the longest. And so if you're a young man, testosterone laden, can't get a job, can't earn an income, going back to live at home, you're going to be angry about things. And it's that anger that I'm most concerned about in the near term. So how do we, how do we minimize that impact? We can talk about that from UBI standpoint. And how do we bridge between where we are today, where AI and exponential tech is disrupting every part of our societal structure, which is a very linear structure or even sublinear. People don't like change. They like going to sleep, waking up in the morning and knowing that the world is exactly as it was the night before. And this rate of change where they can't predict it causes fear. And then on top of that, something that I'm on my soapbox talking about is that Hollywood, all of Hollywood's movies these days are dystopian. It's killer AIs, it's rogue robots. Right. And it's ex machina, it's Dark Mirror, it's Terminator. And if that's the vision of the future people have, of course they're going to fear that.
- [15:51]
Raoul Pal
So slim. So let's go back to you with the same issue about society, because it's actually just a broader issue that you're getting within organizations. Yeah, it's, it's the same structure and we'll see it geopolitically as well. What is the touch points for people to understand how to deal with some of this? Because I think it's going to be important the work that you're doing at government level and societal level as well, not just organizational level.
- [16:17]
Salim Ismail
Yeah. So you know, about five, six years ago, a political consulting firm came to me and said, hey, we use your book to advise heads of state. And I was like, what do you mean? It's completely non intended for that. And it turned out to be several dozen heads of state. So I was like, okay, we have community and tool set and some credibility. But now we have access and that's like a gift from the universe. You can't not take, you have to say yes to that. So I did a year of psychedelics with my wife to get head around this lined up mind, body, spirit. And we've been thinking around this and I'll give you one vector that's emerged. You take the concept of nation states. Right. Nation states are all about scarcity. Guard resources, guard your borders, keep your people safe from marauding bands or armies, whatever. And everything around the nation stated on scarcity as such. We can't collectively solve climate change. So it's been a dismal structure for that. And when you think about where this is going with technology, et cetera, granularizing things, we think the future of governance is going to be the city state. Right. And the big tension that we see in the world today.
- [17:16]
Raoul Pal
So this is like the largest network states idea.
- [17:18]
Salim Ismail
It's a little bit like that. He's coming in from a bottom up perspective. Right. But you think about the most important domains in the world are the city states, Dubai, Silicon Valley, Singapore, etc. In a city state you kind of know where you fit everybody, you don't need passports, everybody kind of knows where they are and you can navigate that. Let's note that our biggest cities in the world, Sao Paulo, Tokyo, Mexico City, Shanghai are bigger and more complex than any country was 100 years ago. Right. And so that's giving us some sort of directionality. When I look at Trump or Brexit or so on, those are left, not left versus right actually urban versus rural right. Brexit was 100% London versus the rest of the country. So that's the tension that we see playing out right now. And of course nations tastes are of armies and they like to use them. Hence you see the US push cramming down on states rights, et cetera. So that's the tension that we see. Local small communities self determining because technology allows us to do this. One just final point on this vector is if you have a city with solar energy, water extraction out of the Internet, the atmosphere, satellite Internet communications available, all of that, why do you need a country? You can be self sufficient at a very granular level in a way that you didn't need that infrastructure and support before. If we have abundance, you tend not to fight over things in the same way. And so we see that vector going. How do you shift from where we are now to. There is the big challenge we've been working on over the last 10, 15 years with our community.
- [18:49]
Raoul Pal
There's. I don't know if you guys, I'm sure you both have read Neil Howe's book Fourth Turning.
- [18:55]
Salim Ismail
Yes.
- [18:56]
Raoul Pal
One of the points of the book that he notices is at the fourth turning things tend to get more authoritarian than democratic because you have to shift society through a large change and it tends to be that way orientated because I don't think there's any way of doing this transition without it. Even though it's one of the more negative aspects of what happens, it kind of can't happen because if you try and do a slower democratic process to, you know, to let people debate about AI and infrastructure and new energy and all of this stuff, it's going to take decade.
- [19:35]
Peter Diamandis
There is an impedance and we don't have the time.
- [19:37]
Salim Ismail
Yeah, exactly right, Peter. Impedance mismatch is a good way of putting it.
- [19:41]
Plus500 Advertiser
Yeah.
- [19:42]
Peter Diamandis
Elon calls it the supersonic tsunami and the challenge is there are no institutions that can withstand the force of this impact. And so you literally, like you said, an authoritarian state comes in to take control to try and reduce the civil unrest. And we can talk about this, but I think the only knob that let's use the United States government for the moment has to use when level of job loss increases is going to be some version of giving out cash. It's Covid checks all over again. But not just 1,000 bucks a month. I think end of the day it's going to be 100 million Americans. The segment that needs the capital the most getting checks at $3,000 a month which of course drives up the level of money being printed, level of debt, the level of inflation. And we're going to see. I don't think there's any other option, Salim. I don't know if you see anything else in the interim as well.
- [20:45]
Raoul Pal
I've got one idea that I've always thought, and it's in line with your idea Salim, is that digital networks and networks and communities are all we've got as humans. The thing we have that humans don't have is to be human. It's really interesting when you see it through that lens. Think about chess. We've not. No human has beaten a computer at chess for 35 years. Yet the chess industry is the largest it's ever been.
- [21:11]
Salim Ismail
Yes.
- [21:11]
Raoul Pal
Why? Because we'll watch humans compete with humans. Because we're flawed and we're messy. We look at the cost of sports teams just keep going up. Why? Because it's human and these very human things. I think there's money to be made for humans to be garnering attention of other humans.
- [21:31]
Salim Ismail
There's an easy precedent to this which is the conference industry. In the 90s we created video conferencing and Lord help us, many of us would not want to travel if we could avoid it. To not go to every conference and have to physically travel. I'm in a hotel room right now. We think of video conferencing. Great. Why don't have to travel anymore? Well, conferences are more valuable than ever and more prevalent because we really appreciate that face to face time and so that dynamic. Unfortunately for our health and our well being and our sleep cycles, God help us, is not going away anytime soon. And I think that you're hitting a very, very important point. What I'm really excited about is that AI and robots take over more and more of the doing. Human beings can spend much more time being. And so looking at that vector, what does the future of being look like this is where India comes in very powerfully, Raoul, because India's got the best being technology in the world, right? Meditation, introspection, martial arts, yoga, etc, and that connectivity of connecting with people in a very powerful way is going to be the biggest currency in the future.
- [22:36]
Raoul Pal
You know, I, I see it here in the Cayman Islands because of tourism. What we're finding is the tourism industry. Even in 2022, which was not a great year for the economy, tourists, tourism keeps going up everywhere around the world and that's because of the same factories. We're spending so much time like this on the Internet, even on in digital form, that things in person are at a premium now. And the cost of, you know, hotel rooms as you know, just keeps going higher and higher because people want to do more in person stuff. And the cost of anything in technology, like a zoom call has gone to zero. They're kind of complete opposite, right?
- [23:14]
Salim Ismail
And so now we'll kind of start to shift economic activity towards that in person physical, you know, wellness tourism is exploding around the world, right? As we move more and more to that modality.
- [23:28]
Raoul Pal
Robots won't do that. You're not going to go and take a jungle tour in Costa Rica with a robot. It's just not, just doesn't fit, you know.
- [23:35]
Peter Diamandis
Salim, I remember in the early days of my Abundance Summit, I used to think that we were going to digitize, dematerialize, democratize and everything was going to go fully virtualized. And we do add a virtual level to the Abundance Summit, but it's just been the opposite. We are selling out the summit earlier and earlier every year. We've capped the size of abundance every March. And it's been a bit of a surprise to me. People want interpersonal, face to face. So when we think about what the future, what's going to maintain and retain value in the future, it will be the human to human activities, it will be assets.
- [24:18]
Salim Ismail
It's the experiences.
- [24:20]
Peter Diamandis
You have experiences. Disney World is not going to be replaced by a fully digital experience. I mean there will be, I mean the work that Fei Fei Li is doing, for example, in fully virtualized worlds will be amazing. But I think the more we go digital and the more we go virtualized, the more people crave actual human experience.
- [24:38]
Salim Ismail
You're right.
- [24:38]
Raoul Pal
And also to go to a point you said earlier Peter, is that the thing that is special about human intelligence, that makes it differentiated is what's known as qualia, you know, the whole feeding problem. And that if we are the most Efficient compute that exists currently. Then for us to focus purely on qualia, the things that drive us emotionally, is actually a better way of doing it. And there's no point us doing repetitive work or other work. We can do things that is important just by servicing humans.
- [25:14]
Salim Ismail
You know, when you look at societies in the past that have achieved abundance, I talk about this a lot. The Romans taking over Europe or the Moguls taking over India, you ended up with four activities. Food, art, music and sex. Not in that order. Right. And you can see us heading more and more down that way. My 14 year old son has developed a huge passion in baking. I was like, okay. And he like getting together with friends and they bake and I'm like floored. I never would have done that when I was a kid. But they're loving it. And so I think as a society will naturally tend towards those activities that allow us to exemplify the activity and the nature of being human. Right. The thing I'm best known for that singularity. And at peer conferences, I do a late night kind of French salon type workshop on metaphysics, philosophy and the meaning of life. You know, alcohol mandatory. One of those types of things takes several hours. And we started doing it doesn't take
- [26:11]
Peter Diamandis
several hours, it goes till 3 o', clock. O' clock in the morning is what it does.
- [26:15]
Raoul Pal
Why have I not been invited to this?
- [26:17]
Salim Ismail
No, we're. So on May 7th, we're doing. I tried it online for the first time to see if it would work online and it actually did. So I'm doing one on May 7, a few hundred people will show up and we'll just have a conversation because we never get a conversation on what does it mean to be alive? As kind of a structured dialogue.
- [26:35]
Raoul Pal
I'm going to send you some stuff because I'm writing a book about all of this stuff, this whole universal code. And I've wrote an essay that kind of just puts plants the flag. And a lot of that actually comes from the Hindu Vedas to start with randomly. I came into that by accident. And so there's a lot of stuff. So we'll have a lot of stuff to talk about with that. Peter, I want to start with you on something else as well, is, you know, well, both of you started part of this journey with Ray Kurzweil.
- [26:59]
Peter Diamandis
Yeah.
- [26:59]
Raoul Pal
And at the time, yeah, we all thought he was directionally right. Did you expect him to be this? Right.
- [27:07]
Peter Diamandis
Well, listen, there's published stats on the success of his, of his predictions. Right. If you go to Wikipedia and you sort of look at Kurzweil's predictions. I think it's 84% accuracy within a year or two. And he's been amazing over and over again. Obviously. Most famously, he predicted human level AI by 2029. And now if it's 2026 or 27, or if we're there already, that's there. You know, the things that he's predicted going forward, that I think is the most exciting is reaching longevity escape velocity by 2033. This is the point at which, for every year you're alive, scientists extend your life for more than a year, which has amazing potential for how long you might live. High bandwidth brain computer interface by mid-2030s, connecting your neocortex to the cloud. And we're entering a period of human evolution which is the singularity. And Ray talks about the singularity in 2045 or thereabouts. And the reality is we're facing multiple singularities, singularity being the point at which you can't predict what comes next. I asked Elon, how far out can you predict what's going to happen? And maybe it's two or three years right now. The ability to predict out five years, forget it. And the people who are, you know, I love it. Salim, you and I are asked all the time, like, so, can you tell us what the world's going to be like in 2050? No, I can't tell you no.
- [28:37]
Raoul Pal
When I got to the economic singularity, where we don't even understand what a company is, how economies work, any of that. I get to that by 2030. Beyond that, there's like, we don't know. So a quick break in your regular programming. If you're serious about your future, grab my free report called prepare for 2030. I think you've got five years to make as much money as possible. And this guide will help you navigate what's coming. The link is in the description. Download it now. I want to think about that singularity, the 2045, where kind of we've fully merged with the technology. Right. Because you've been focused on that, Peter, a lot.
- [29:13]
Peter Diamandis
Yeah.
- [29:13]
Raoul Pal
Part of that is the longevity journey to get us there, but also all of the technologies that we seem to be adopting as humans as we merge, people can't see it yet, but it's happening, right?
- [29:24]
Peter Diamandis
It is. I mean, what happens is we get a new technology on board. At first it's shocking. Then we start using it, then we become dependent upon it. Then we forget the fact that it was shocking in the first place and we adopt it and we're clear about it, right? We're seeing this, we saw this. Everything from wi fi and airplanes to what Google could do to now having all of these large language models answering anything you want all the time, we're then going to see this embedded in our life where everything is intelligent around you all the time. And one of the most important things we humans have is adaptability and agility. I talk about Salim, and I talk about this in different provinces, but I talk about the fact that 66 million years ago, an asteroid hit the Earth and it changed the environment of Earth so rapidly, so drastically, that the slow moving, lumbering dinosaurs could not evolve and died. And it was the furry mammals, right, our great ancestors, if you would, that were agile enough and adaptable enough that they did survive. And so as the rate of change is increasing, and we have to be clear about it, the rate of change is not constant, it's increasing. Right? It's, you know, the derivative, the derivative is positive here. The single most important element you need is a mindset of curiosity and agility and adaptability. You have to believe this technology is not happening to you, but happening for you. And how do you use that?
- [30:56]
Raoul Pal
Yeah, and I think, you know, there's going to be a big split. It's back to the societal thing as well, because there's a group of people who are the accelerationists and the three of us are part of that group. And then there's going to be the decelerationist, that I don't want things to change group. And that becomes quite hard because you're going to, if you're not careful, you're going to fork humanity.
- [31:17]
Peter Diamandis
No, we will fork humanity.
- [31:19]
Salim Ismail
I believe we're already there.
- [31:21]
Peter Diamandis
Yeah, it's going to be much more. Go ahead.
- [31:25]
Salim Ismail
The fork hasn't fully emerged, but you have people. You know, the easiest example is the Amish, right, Who kind of, at some point in history kind of went, you know what, we're just going to go off by ourselves because all of this technology, like fire and electricity, et cetera, et cetera, too advanced. By the way, the Amish are ironically the happiest group of individuals anywhere. So. So there may be something to that that we need to look at, but the progress will. I think we'll start to see multiple forks like this. Like, you can see the orthodox element in every religion today freaking out because they can't process all of this. Right. It goes to the Carol D. Do you have a growth mindset or do you have a Fixed mindset and structures and societies and groups that have a fixed mindset will find this next phase unbelievably stressful. And this is where the danger comes from, because you keep trying to go back to the old time when things were better. And of course that was never the case. But you have this kind of romanticized memory of that, and you're trying to get back to that. And that's absolutely not reality. Reality is actually, as Peter shows in all his abundance charts, is getting actually infinitely better. We should be heading full speed into that because it's making the world so much better place. But that modality doesn't fit with the old patterns that people have.
- [32:37]
Peter Diamandis
Celine, let me just double down on the forking of humanity, because we're about to see multiple forks occurring, right? One of them is people who are fully adopting AI and are becoming creators versus consumers. So the world will split into those two segments. Those who become entrepreneurs and creators, using AI to make their dreams come true, and those that will become consumers who are basically just on Netflix, playing video games, being passive, and not using the technology to create, but to consume. You've then got a fork that's going to occur as a result of longevity, escape velocity. Those who say, no, no, no, I don't want to do this. I don't want to change. The human lifespan should be 80 or 90. They forget the fact that human lifespan used to be 30, and you're now living to 80 or 90 because of all of the breakthroughs that occurred in the last century. So we're going to have a split between those who want extreme longevity and those who don't. We're then going to have a split which occurs between those who want to take on brain computer interface, want to connect their neocortex with the cloud so they can understand quantum physics and have a perfect memory and can understand anything they want. And then we're going to have a split with those who decide to upload themselves to the cloud, right? Take your 100 billion neurons, your 100 trillion synaptic connections, and instead of just accepting that, saying, no, I want to go to the cloud, and I want to have, of, you know, call it digital immortality. But so all of these elements, and then we're gonna have a split between those staying on planet Earth and then going, those going to the stars, right? We have to remember that we're on the verge of starship opening up, not just the moon and Mars, but our solar system. And there will be a significant population over the next, you know, 20 to 50 years that begin to move out into the Earth, Moon, Mars system. So all of these splits are happening.
- [34:30]
Salim Ismail
As Alex says on our podcast, every science fiction plot is occurring in real time and we're speed running all of them all at the same time.
- [34:38]
Peter Diamandis
Especially Star Trek, which I love.
- [34:39]
Raoul Pal
Yeah. You know, I got to also another point in all of this, which is that, you know, the theories of stuff like space time don't really work as we know. They've got issues with it. And it feels that consciousness is the fundamental. And if you follow your line of thinking, what we're essentially doing is increasing universal consciousness because we will end up sharing our consciousness. Well, we already are with AI, right. So it already has all of human consciousness that's been written down and it will be able to absorb what's in our heads as well. And there's all of consciousness basically being uploaded into whatever the hell this is and where it's all going. It becomes a very big thing. The other thing to think about with the accelerationist and the decelerationists is I don't think people have grasped that this is going to happen. There is no way it's not. And the reason being is this is the biggest game nation states or humanity's ever played. It's the most important technology we've ever discovered and the last one we'll ever discover, because everything will come from the AI. And therefore this entire game is currently split between two nations because you can't have one, which is China and the US and everything will coalesce around that duality of a race. No government can stop that because if they do, the other government ends up owning it all. And if you own all intelligence, that's the end of everything.
- [35:57]
Peter Diamandis
You have to remember, Raul, we're genetically engineered or genetically evolved to compete. We do our best work when we compete. We don't know how not to compete. We haven't evolved the full collaboration side of our consciousness yet. But our animal brain is all about competition. And so it's not only country to country, it's company to company. That's right. And all of that because this is the largest economic game ever played and we're still tied to economics. There's no end point here. And there's so the transition in society. Again, government and societal structures are very linear or sublinear. And this is where, you know, the. We hit a wall and things will break and will have to be reinvented.
- [36:49]
Raoul Pal
And I think this is part of the role that we all need to play, is to tell People, it's going to happen to you or it happens with you. That whole thing is really important because it's going to happen.
- [37:00]
Salim Ismail
We have a single line to describe this. You're either the disruptor or you're disrupted. There's no middle ground now. And so you might as well flip to that right side and then figure out how you're going to progress yourself and progress your company, progress your society. Otherwise it's going to get left behind and you're going to be the product, not the. Not the business model.
- [37:22]
Peter Diamandis
Raoul, can I take a second and just mention my new book comes out?
- [37:27]
Raoul Pal
I was just about to bring in your new book because I want to hear all about it.
- [37:30]
Peter Diamandis
Yeah, it's relevant to this point. So in 2012, Steven Kotler and I wrote Abundance the Future Is Better Than youn Think. And it talked about this concept of abundance before, became a famous buzzword today, and everybody's talking about it. That was 14 years ago. The book we just wrote and is coming out tomorrow. This podcast will be live when it comes out. It's called We Are as Gods. The subtitle is A Survival Guide for the Age of Abundance.
- [37:58]
Raoul Pal
Oh, fascinating.
- [37:59]
Peter Diamandis
And the book basically talks about the fact that abundance has gotten better and bigger at a constant rate. And we finally talk about not just the upside of abundance, but also the dark side, right? More microplastics, more carbon, more depression, teen suicides, all of the negative sides which are there and admit it, but it's
- [38:24]
Raoul Pal
not all a positive.
- [38:25]
Peter Diamandis
It's not all positive. Abundance brings some negative externalities with it, but at the same time, food, water, healthcare, education, all these things are becoming available and intelligence, right? There are 9 billion handsets on the planet, and every one of these has access to some free level of AI, which is amazing. The second half of the book, which probably the most important, and it hits the topics we discussed, that your mindset, how you think about the future is one of the most important things. And so we talk about the mindsets required to navigate the next two to six years. How do you deal with this rate of change? What is your mental model? And how do you use that mental model not only survive, but to thrive? You know, if you ask yourself the greatest leaders on the planet, what made them a successful leader? Was it their money, their technology, their friends, or was it their mindset? Hopefully, everybody agrees their mindset is what made them successful. And if they lost everything but maintained their mindset, they would succeed again. So what mindset do you have? And more importantly, what mindset do you need to navigate this next two to six years? Fundamentally critical.
- [39:35]
Raoul Pal
And so the issue is, Peter and I want to go into this more in the book, but the issue is, is the people watching this are people who've already got the open mindset and the curious mindset because they know what you guys talk about, they know what I talk about. So we're self selecting. It's really hard to get this across. And we've all got friends who are outside of these industries and they have no understanding and no care about all of this.
- [39:58]
Salim Ismail
They're going to care. The question is, what's the narrative that helps you take people that are kind of in their stuckness and bring them into this? Right. We've been actually working on one, we're launching something in a month on how do you create luck? Because in this volatile world, luck becomes more and more important. And we worked out a kind of a Malcolm Gladwell elegant framing that allows you to define it, but more importantly measure it. And so we're launching that in about a month. So that'll be interesting.
- [40:28]
Raoul Pal
Peter, without, without, without giving away too much of the book. I'm sure people want some of the guidelines even for them to be able to communicate with their friends, because we have a self selecting bias here. But we've all got friends who are just not there yet.
- [40:43]
Peter Diamandis
So some of the elements here that are important again is how you think about what's happening. So it is happening and it's accelerating. There's no two ways about that.
- [40:52]
Raoul Pal
Right.
- [40:52]
Peter Diamandis
And understanding the game and what's going to happen is acceptance is the very first step. The second thing is when I talk about the mindsets that are critical. A curiosity mindset is fundamental here. Everybody needs to be utilizing AI in every aspect of our lives and we self limit what we think we can do. Well, at the same time, we can do almost anything now on top of these AI capabilities. And so how do you use a curiosity mindset to constantly be learning? AI is the most patient teacher, can teach you about anything you want every day. And so, you know, utilizing AI to learn every morning and to do every morning is fundamentally critical. The second thing is having a purpose driven mindset. You know, if you have a purpose in life, it differentiates you from almost everybody else. Mark Twain has a beautiful quote. He goes, two important days in your life, the day you were born and the day you find out why. So diving deep into your purpose driven mindset enables you to utilize all these technologies to do something greater than yourself. And I think the Thing that most people on the planet have a job not because they love their job, it's because they want to put food on the table or insurance for their families. Now all of a sudden, you can utilize these technologies to actually fulfill what you wanted to do as your child. Passions foretold for you in the future versus waiting tables and cleaning hotel rooms. Which robots are going to do far better than any humans? Understanding an exponential mindset, an abundance mindset. Your mindset is what you can control. You're not going to control the technology. You can control your mindset. How you see it. Having a level of agility and having agency is one of the most important things. And so giving yourself, understanding the mindsets, understanding how to get into these mindsets is what the book is going to show you. And ultimately I think it's how you navigate the future because that's what you have control over. You don't have control over the other stuff.
- [42:59]
Raoul Pal
But Peter, how do people deal with. I get all of that, but all of us are finding this exhausting. It's invigorating, but exhausting. It's. It's literally impossible to get our heads around how fast things are moving. And you know, one of the tricks I've done is like I've stopped trying to use every new tool that comes because you can kind of figure out anthropic or, or whoever's gonna just introduce it, because if not, it drives you insane. Because that feeling, if I'm so far behind, yes, even when we're not, but versus others we are.
- [43:34]
Peter Diamandis
So it is going, that is going to change because ultimately you will have your own version of Jarvis from Iron Man. Right? That's my favorite analogy. It's going to be an AI wrap around you. It's your interface to the world. And that, that personal version of an AI will interface with all the other AIs. You won't have to learn all the newest things because you're, you know, I used to call it my joint anthromechano interface or Jamie doesn't matter anyway, it's going to be interfacing with everything out there and we're not there yet. In the same way that you're not going to, you know, you didn't have to learn to code anymore. Amazing, right? Because all you have to know is what your taste is, what your intention is and be able to communicate that where you get rid of apps, your AI is going to, you know, just you ask a question, it will figure everything out else out. Now it's going to change humanity in a fundamental fashion. We are becoming so dependent upon technology and the level of technology's capabilities are growing at an infinite rate. I mean literally an infinite rate. There's no ceiling on where we're going. And so the world is going to look shockingly different. Not in 10 years, not even in five years, in the next two to three years.
- [44:50]
Raoul Pal
Yeah. And if we go back to that conversation about how AI's output is going to exceed all human output in history in terms of words. Right. That's just the words part. The only way of dealing with this is with AI to compress all of this overload. We're already feeling it. You go onto Twitter X right now and it's just an overload of information and we haven't got the compression layer, which is what AI will have to do. And we will all have. It'll be a highly individualized world because even though this, it's a network stake Selim in the end there's too much information in a network and it has to be compressed into something. So we end up with a different experience. And it also comes a bit of a post truth world as well.
- [45:30]
Salim Ismail
It doesn't note that you, for that network you need curators. Right. We are all curators for the folks that listen to us to help make signals from noise in all of this. But I think there's a bigger point here to be made that AI is not just a tool, it's actually driving us towards a lower transaction cost civilization. Right. And we can now do coordination at a scale that we couldn't do before and think that's very, very powerful. This is where we're so optimistic about the future. It looks incredibly bright if you can look at it from that lens. You can look at it from a very dark place, but you can look at it from the very bright place also. How do we get there is the only question.
- [46:09]
Raoul Pal
Peter, One of the things that is puzzling all of us is what on earth Europe is doing in all of this. Yeah. We'll come on to India, Celine, because I want to pick your brain about that. But Europe so is a quandary because they seem to be actively trying to reject technology. It's got an aging population. I get it. The only thing that they seem to be driving in part of this technological equation is green energy. They've been almost world leaders along with China and their adoption rate. So they're playing a role in new energy sources. But it's puzzling to me, Peter, I
- [46:46]
Peter Diamandis
think about what Europe will become And I think so Europe is going to become highly dependent on the US for its technology layers and AI capabilities. I think Europe's going to become the experience, the place where you go for experience. Lake Cuomo, Bordeaux, the valleys, the wine valleys of France, the beaches of Santorini and Mykonos. It's an experience layer, for sure. It's quality of life. And the challenge becomes how it's going to hit the economy. I mean, the US is going hyperbolic or hypersonic in its economy over the next.
- [47:32]
Raoul Pal
It'll just attract the money. So if we think about the conversation we had earlier, it's a really interesting point, actually, because we said before that the human experience is where humans are going to find value. So let's assume that Europe becomes a more humanistic experience, and the other nations, let's call it the US and China, are generating all of the capital. Well, those people are going to recycle the capital into experiences in Europe.
- [47:57]
Peter Diamandis
I do believe that.
- [47:59]
Salim Ismail
I do believe that already. Right. Like, most of Europe is mostly a tourist destination. There's a little anecdote. Can I just.
- [48:05]
Raoul Pal
I mean, Europeans won't like you saying that.
- [48:06]
Salim Ismail
That, I mean, they won't like us.
- [48:08]
Raoul Pal
They do go, they have jobs and they work for a living and all of those things. And you're just saying we're just, like, looking at you.
- [48:14]
Salim Ismail
Well, there's an old joke. There's an old joke that says, in. In heaven, the cooks are French, the police are English, the lovers are Italian, and the Swiss organize everything. And in hell, the cooks are English, the police are German, the lovers are Swiss, and the Italians organize everything. Right. And it's just such a great encapsulation. But I gotta tell, there was a. I was in Europe all through the 90s, and I ended up restructuring one of the large insurance companies in France. After a couple months, I took the CEO aside and I said, I can't deal with this. Why are you French people so hard to deal with? And he says, ah, oui. And he pulls out a magazine from his drawer in which the French ambassador to the UN was asked this question and the big quote is circled. And the French ambassador to the un, when asked this question, said, the problem with us in France is, he said, we will say it works in practice, but will it work in theory? Because they're intellectually elegant and it's just such a great encapsulation, which means you never try anything because unless it works in theory, it can't be happening, you know, in front of you. And therefore they don't risk anything. And so, but once you understand that mindset because they really work to live rather than living to work, right?
- [49:18]
Peter Diamandis
Yes.
- [49:18]
Raoul Pal
And, and there's nothing wrong with that.
- [49:21]
Salim Ismail
Nothing.
- [49:21]
Raoul Pal
Having lived in Spain for 10 years and had a house there for 25 years or so, you know that that allows you to live the human experience in a way that doesn't.
- [49:32]
Peter Diamandis
Can I, can I add something?
- [49:34]
Salim Ismail
Yeah.
- [49:35]
Peter Diamandis
Which is, which is the fact that I've never worked harder in my life than I'm working right now. I know same the capabilities that Claude co work and all of the models and.
- [49:46]
Salim Ismail
But I wanted to connect the dots here for something. You know, most of us, we work very, very hard, but we're doing the things that give us the most fulfillment and the most joy. Right. Peter, you and I could have no more fun than having conversations like these. Right. And, and, and this, so this is the, the, the thing when you can set yourself with your massive purpose, then work becomes fun, it becomes the most fulfilling thing you can do.
- [50:11]
Raoul Pal
And now your purpose is to enjoy life. This is the Europe. I mean that's equally valid, right? It's a different lens completely.
- [50:21]
Peter Diamandis
In fact, the question is, who wins the game at the end? Is it the wealthiest person or the person who had the most enjoyment in life, life or contributed to society? I mean we're going to optimize around a variety of different targets.
- [50:32]
Raoul Pal
Yeah. So let's talk about India because that's an interesting one because India has a huge excess of labor supply of which we may not need, has sourced out its intellectual abilities cheaply but now it's got competition, it's moving a lot of technology. It drove the cost of mobile phone data networks to zero before anybody else. It's now going to do the same thing. It looks like with solar, they're moving at a huge pace. They've just got the breakthrough in nuclear as well. But they've got a problem. This, you know, it's not an easy path for India, but it's important because this is a huge country and is going to be a larger and larger part of the world population. In fact, it's already the most populous country. So how are you thinking that one through?
- [51:18]
Salim Ismail
I think I have both optimism and pessimism. Right. So I immigrated out of India when I was 10 years old and kind of as I was an angry teenager going why the hell do I have to mow the lawn? We have servants to do everything in India. What the hell? So I take my father aside and he said, well I can't Handle noise, dirt, pollution.
- [51:35]
Raoul Pal
By the way, we're not allowed to use the word servants because we had servants.
- [51:37]
Salim Ismail
Yeah, I know, but, you know, so you can handle noise, dirt or corruption. And then you understand. Well, you can't live in India if you can't handle those things. When you go there, you experience all that. There's something powerful. If you go to a city like Varanasi, 7,000 years old, and it looks it, right, it looks this, the dirty, muddiest, ugliest place. But there's a layer of spirituality in a way of being that is pervasive to everything that is so profound that it really, really affects you. And I think what I'm hoping for on the optimistic side is India cuts through this and then moves the population more into that being mode where they have natural expertise anyway. And that will be very, very powerful. They have the ability to navigate large groups of people and move them along in a way that nobody else in the world has ever, ever figured out. And I think that will be the saving grace of India.
- [52:27]
Raoul Pal
Yeah. And you can see that there is, you know, whether you like Modi or not and his sort of Hindu nationalism, he. They are driving that element, the religious or societal, structural element that India's had for thousands of years to try to
- [52:44]
Salim Ismail
bring into the modern age that was always there. I think what's powerful is the economic miracle that's happening. Can you harness the economics of. So I'll give you a quick little anecdote here. I remember going through Bombay. I used to take the trains in Bombay when I was. When I was a kid. And you. I once got on one of these trains and there was like 120 people crammed in just between the doors, right. And hanging on the outside, all the whole thing. If you extrapolate it out, there was like 5,000 people on the train at rush hour. Seven or eight trains arriving into Victoria or church at any point. There's like 30, 40,000 people coming off that train. There's no ticket checkers. There's nobody buying tickets. So how are they navigating this? After watching this for a few cycles, I finally go to the station manager and I said, listen, how the hell do you. Does this work? And he had the most extraordinary answer. He said, look, I have about 40 ticket checkers, which you won't notice in a crowd of 30,000. We stop every 20th person, and if they don't have a ticket, the fine is 20 times the ticket price, which is unbelievably elegant. It's mathematically perfect. And I said, well, why once every 20th person? He goes, well, there's about 20 working days a month. Everybody expects to get stopped about once a month. You pay the fine and you move on. And I said, well, what happens if you're short staffed? He goes, well, maybe stop every 25th person and charge them 25 times a ticket price. Collection is sometimes a bit of an issue, but that kind of elegance is something they have worked out like nobody else in the world they can navigate, you know?
- [54:06]
Raoul Pal
Yeah, like getting tiffin delivered. That Harvard. Yeah, that's right.
- [54:10]
Salim Ismail
My father had that. In 11 years of having his tiffin boxes in Bombay, he got the wrong lunch. I think he said, twice in 11 years. Okay, that's just unbelievable ability with illiterate people navigating these supply chains. This is. There's a genius there that I think will come out. It's just. It just plods along at a pace. It just seems glacially slow. But eventually they do get there. So I'm very optimistic about India. I was just there for the India Today conclave and it was surreal having, watching the conversations that are happening there.
- [54:40]
Peter Diamandis
And of course, India needs AI more than any other nation on the planet. Planet. Right. To provide education and health care. But it's got its greatest asset is its youth and its intelligence. I mean, you know, if you look at the CEOs of the top, you know, tech companies in America, they're all Indian immigrants like you guys.
- [54:59]
Salim Ismail
Well, I have a whole thesis about why, by the way. So if you grew up in India, I'll make this comment. If you grew up in India, in a joint family household, okay, you have to learn very complex human politics a very young age. At age 2, you have to know that if that aunt is having a fight with that uncle and you say hello to them, you're not getting any sweets. And so you have to learn very complex politics when it comes to running a company. And people are mostly aligned. You're like, this is easy. And so you get these CEOs. And there's also the selection bias where we have so many people coming out of India that you're going to get the best ones, hitting the best level. But that combination of navigating that plus the human complexity is something that Indians are profoundly amazing at.
- [55:39]
Raoul Pal
And to your point. Well, both of your points. What's interesting is to see all of the AI companies, all of the hyperscalers focusing on India, because, yes, there's a big number of users. But I think, Peter, to your point, the delta of which you can affect outcomes for a country like India by giving AI to everybody, much like giving mobile phones for zero cost to everybody in India that what's his name did.
- [56:06]
Peter Diamandis
Mukesh Ambani.
- [56:07]
Raoul Pal
Yeah, Ambani did. It's incredible.
- [56:09]
Peter Diamandis
Yeah. It's a prerequisite for India to transition out of the level of poverty it has. And I think about the fact that China's star has risen over the last 20, 30 years and started to fall in many ways, especially with its reduced population and the policies it's had. India is the rising star. Next, I'm thinking about investing in Indian companies, in the Indian economy because I see great things for it. And then of course, following behind India is going to be Africa in many ways because of the resources.
- [56:47]
Salim Ismail
It's also a perfect story of centralization versus decentralization. India is unbelievably decentralized and China is very, very centralized. Both have their benefits over time. Decentralization tends to win.
- [57:00]
Raoul Pal
Yeah. And the other thing about the India investment story is I back in, I don't know, 2014 or something, I got a map of the world, took out all countries with aging populations and all of them with, with high levels of debt. And what you got was the world based around the Indian Ocean, the old monsoon trade winds. And I called the monsoon. And it's. It was the. And I looked at it and said, oh, well, it's obvious what's going to happen is India's kind of the economic center of gravity, the financial capital ends up being the Middle east and Singapore, both similar kind of demographics. Most of them were Muslim countries, even the Swahili coast of Africa, up to Iran, Saudi, all of that. And then between them, they have the capital, the resources, the human capital, the intelligence. You can add Israel in for Silicon Valley. And the whole thing is a self contained, decentralized new system.
- [57:52]
Salim Ismail
Yeah.
- [57:56]
Raoul Pal
The average age of 20 or something, 23 or something.
- [57:59]
Peter Diamandis
It's crazy.
- [58:01]
Raoul Pal
So, Peter, what is your. What should people be focusing on now in the here and now? Because there's a lot going on. There's. And you know, people look to you as a signal in all of the noise. Where's your signal right now?
- [58:14]
Peter Diamandis
Listen, the level at which AI is accelerating is shocking. It's actually shocking. All of the leaders, all of us. Well, and to. To Elon and to Sam and to Dario. I don't think any of them expected the capabilities that have now come out of the scaling laws. And what we're about to see is AI solve Everything. I wrote a paper called Solve everything, go to solve everything.org with Alex Wiesner Gross, who's our resident genius in our Moonshots podcast. And so what we're going to be seeing is AI, not just supporting you on your questions and. And maybe helping you in starting a company. We're going to start to see AI solving all of math, all of physics, all of chemistry, all of biology. And so the rate at which fundamental scientific breakthroughs are coming online is going to explode. And this is going to cause incredible increases in the economy. If you solve material science and you have room temperature superconducting, if you solve biology and you've got age reversal and extended lifespan, if you solve chemistry and all of a sudden you can desalinate or pull carbon out of the atmosphere 100 times faster than ever before. This is where the future is going. And I think ultimately one of the most important things is this level of agency and agility. It is the mindset in which you intersect with this technology. It's using AI to educate yourself all the time. It's getting comfortable with it. I think one of the things that Salimi and I talk about a lot is that the career of the future is not getting a job. It used to be go to high school, get a good college, get a degree, get a job. That was the social contract. That is dead, that is gone, that is buried. I think the only career of the future is entrepreneurship. It's not right for everybody, but it's becoming understanding your purpose, finding something that you love passionately and building a company, a product or service around that because you can. And I think, again, it's becoming a creator, not a consumer. Really important for me to convey to my kids.
- [60:23]
Salim Ismail
And importantly, we get lots of objections of very few people are cut out to be entrepreneurs. Well, actually, today the cost of that is. And the risk you can take on is so low to do it that the barrier to entry is almost gone compared to where there was even 10 years ago.
- [60:36]
Raoul Pal
So, Peter, hold up your book again because, you know, this is what you discuss in it. And I think it's really perfect time for people to read a book like this.
- [60:44]
Peter Diamandis
Yeah, this is meant to be inspirational. It's meant to help reduce fear. It's meant to give you a guideline of how to think about what's going on right now. It's the best book I've written now. Four books with Steven Kotler, Abundance Bold, the future is faster than you think. And then we are as gods. And it's probably the most important piece I've ever written. So super excited about it. I'll mention one other thing, Raul, that I've got going on today, which I'm excited about. I mentioned earlier that I'm concerned about the level of fear in society and I'm concerned about the level of fear in society because Hollywood paints all these dystopian futures. So I teamed with Google, with Marc Benioff, in Salesforce with Cathie Wood, and Ark Invest with a number of different funders, and we've launched something called the Future Vision xprize. And so we're doing a global film competition. We're asking teams to put forward a three minute trailer for the movie they want to create that shows a positive, hopeful, abundant vision of the future. And we have over a thousand entries so far. We're going to probably tend towards 5,000 entries. We're going to be whittling that down and we're going to make the winner's film. And we're creating an engine for positive storytelling. Because, you know, without a target, you'll miss it every time. You know, without a vision of the future, people will not have a vision of the future. So for me, when I was growing up, it was Star Trek. Star Trek showed me this hopeful vision of the future where humans and technology collaborated.
- [62:21]
Raoul Pal
And the Jetsons.
- [62:22]
Peter Diamandis
And the Jetsons. Right. And recently Hail Mary was a great movie like that where humans working with technology enable this incredibly positive future. And if you don't have a vision for a positive future, why would you ever want to live in it? So I'm trying to quell the fear in that regard.
- [62:39]
Salim Ismail
I have a little plug to give here also. Peter and I have the luxury of sitting at the cutting edge of all these exponential technologies. And we can connect the dots in the way that very few people can. And what Peter and Steven have done here is project the whole that paradigm forward. What we found is over the last decade, you've got people like Ray Dalio or Piketty or Harari that are amazing at framing the past, but pretty useless at framing the future because you don't have the exponential perspective or the absolute nature of what's actually happening. This is where I think what Stephen and Peter have done with this book frames the future in a very, very powerful way and gives people access to it. And that's why it's so important.
- [63:23]
Peter Diamandis
Salim, you're about to release a paper which I've been waiting for called the Organizational Singularity. Could you speak to that a second?
- [63:30]
Salim Ismail
Yeah. The exo book was how do you organize for an exponential world? Well, with AI, that completely changes, right? Because if transaction costs are crashing, that means companies completely change, organizations completely change. And why I call it the organizational singularity is with Claudia, Nemo, Claw and openclaw, we have now recursive self improvement at the workflow level. And the minute you have that, you start shifting away from all the human to human process frameworks we have in every company, in every organization, every government department in the world to an agentic coordination model. When you move that, that means you can completely change the game. Human becomes dashboard monitors, oversight, exception handling and problem solvers. My conclusion right now is we'll end up with running companies with over 25% of the same people that we had before create five times per companies. So hence you don't have the big
- [64:23]
Raoul Pal
Celine, let me know and we'll get you back on to talk about it because I think it's super fascinating gaming for two weeks.
- [64:30]
Salim Ismail
Ish.
- [64:31]
Raoul Pal
Okay, so we'll get you back on and we can talk through some of that. The one thing I try and get across to people because I don't think people are connecting the dots, there's two really big obvious dots that are coming. One is we've seen what obviously Tesla's doing with self driving. Driving. Half the people don't believe that. I can't understand why not everybody is driving a Tesla. Well, not driving it drives you. But once you put that technology into the robots, which are coming very soon, okay, you've got something quite amazing. What people are not connecting. The dot is by the time the robots are ready will be full AGI. So you're going to put an AGI brain. Yes, humanoid form that's stronger, faster, fitter, cheaper than any human. And it is a species and it is superior. Nobody is ready for this yet. Nobody's even ready to have that conversation yet. But we will see robots because we think of robots as C3PO, this nice servant robot. And we think, oh, the robots can do our ironing and the robots can mow our lawns. People don't realize that. Yes, if you throttle the intelligence of it, if you give it full AGI intelligence, well you've got a new apex creature that is above us in the intelligence pecking order.
- [65:44]
Peter Diamandis
Smarter, stronger, faster.
- [65:46]
Raoul Pal
And nobody is ready for that. And then we then got one more step, and this is a step that we can all see coming as well, is we all talk about quantum computers and everyone's like, oh my God, it's going to crack Bitcoin or the banking system. People are not putting together AGI quantum compute is asi. We then get to la la land scaling of intelligence where it's a million times more intelligent than anything that's ever existed. And this is all not very far away.
- [66:15]
Peter Diamandis
We're living, we're, we're living through the most extraordinary time ever in human history. It's the most significant time. Which of course is why I think we're living in a simulation. Because why would we be live now otherwise?
- [66:25]
Salim Ismail
It's too damn interesting.
- [66:28]
Raoul Pal
And we're so lucky to be all of us kind of seeing this and trying to share that with people as well and help people in their journey. We're all doing it in different ways, but you know, it's a privilege to be part of this.
- [66:42]
Peter Diamandis
It is. That's exactly, that's, that's a great description of the feeling. I feel privileged to be alive now and to help tell this story. You know, I'm spending, I think salim for you and probably for you all. I'm spending 30 hours a week just reading, just absorbing, consuming, absorbing just to keep on top of it.
- [67:02]
Salim Ismail
It's, it's a near full time job just to try and articulate what's going on and it's crazy.
- [67:07]
Raoul Pal
Yeah. Amazing guys, thank you so much. Fantastic conversation. We will definitely have to do this again.
- [67:13]
Peter Diamandis
Love it.
- [67:14]
Raoul Pal
We could speak for hours, but I loved it. Thank you.
- [67:16]
Salim Ismail
May the force be with you.
- [67:19]
Peter Diamandis
Take care, brother.
- [67:20]
Salim Ismail
All right, guys.
- [67:22]
Raoul Pal
As ever, fantastic conversation. First time I've met Saleem as well. Brilliant thinker. Really, really interesting. I just want to keep bringing more of these conversations to the journeyman to help us all figure out together where this world is going and what it means for us. See you next time. Today's episode is brought to you by Abra. Abra provides high net worth individuals and institutions with a competitive edge in trading, investing and collateralized borrowing while maintaining full control through segregated account infrastructure. So if you're looking to gain access to additional liquidity, Abra is one of the most competitive loan products on the market. You can borrow against Bitcoin, ETH and Solana, but up to 50% loan to value rates are in the 4 to 6% APY range. And at open term, you can continuously draw down against your collateral as the price appreciates. Abra has other strategies to add yield and their team is happy to help align your portfolio to your risk profile. Reach out today and get a complimentary consult on your portfolio. It's worth seeing if they can help manage your allocation, reach investment goals, manage risk and add some additional Yield, go to realvision.com Abraham Opera and tell them I sent you. You obviously enjoyed the episode because you're here with me at the end. But listen, don't forget to go to realvision.com join and grab a free membership. It's an incredible community packed with alpha great investment ideas and the research that you need to help you unfuck your future. So get started. Now go to realvision.com forward/join.