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- [00:00]
Vee
That might be controversial, but Web3 has to disappear to go mainstream.
- [00:06]
Farouk
Just make sure when time comes to take your money off the table because 99% of these projects go to zero and I lost like 9% of my portfolio six months after utility.
- [00:15]
Vee
Doesn't matter. We don't care about Utility. Meme Coins is the proof of that.
- [00:21]
Farouk
In 2021, every single NFT brand was like, yo, I'm going to be the Disney of that. I'm going to be the freaking McDonald's of this. You can't just like sell out NFTs and think you can just take out Mickey Mouse, dude.
- [00:31]
Vee
Utility gives you access. Culture delivers relevance, but social and emotional bonding gives you longevity. This is your retention loop. This is what people comes back to to connect.
- [00:45]
Raoul Pal
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- [03:53]
Moderator
All right, good afternoon everyone, and thank you so much for joining us today for our talk on Web3 Innovation. We with this talk, I'm really excited to have this talk because I'm joined by just two OGs of the space, two people that are really building real businesses within Web3. So we're going to talk about NFTs, we're going to talk about community, we're going to talk about this technology. We're going to where it started and where it's going. So I'm really happy to bring you guys this conversation. Of course, we're joined by V. Paulis, CEO of World of Women, and Farooq, CEO, co founder and CEO of Myriad Markets Rug Radio, which I'm sure a lot of you listen to and decrypt as well. Faroh, V, thank you so much for joining us today in Miami. How are you two doing?
- [04:44]
Vee
Thank you. We're doing. I mean, I'm speaking for you. I am doing very well. I'm glad to be here. Thank you for having us. Of course.
- [04:52]
Farouk
I mean, same here. So you could totally speak for the both of us. We're in Miami, so it's really hard to not feel great, right?
- [04:58]
Moderator
Absolutely. And the weather's cleared up, so yeah, we're doing good. Right. So I want to start with, you know, because you two have been in this space for quite a while and I think you guys have been around long enough to see kind of how NFTs first started. Right. And I want to ask you, when you first got into this space, what did you think about the technology and the problems that it was going to solve?
- [05:23]
Farouk
It's funny because I didn't get into crypto until NFTs.
- [05:25]
Moderator
Right.
- [05:25]
Farouk
I was always curious, but NFTS is what got me over the Edge in 2021, February, when on Clubhouse. But it's. I got into NFTs through artists. So artists are what the people who taught me what NFTs were. And it was just like the idea of like, you know, on chain, provenance for art, for digital art. Right. Because I was always raised around like art galleries and I always loved art growing up, thanks to my mom. But when I found out about, you can like have, you know, this thank UX piece that was minted on chain and then you could buy the physical and then for the next hundreds of years you could know where it was, a real one, and that royalties could be distributed to him and then his great grandchildren forever. That made sense. And then in came PFPs. Right. So the whole PFP, thankfully I was early to that. But the whole party crypto pong were the women, blah, blah, boom came after that. But that double, that made even more sense to me than the art side after that. Because, like, while you're congregating communities on us online around, you know, whether it's a vision, ideology, the way the PFP looks, the art, the culture. And I had been building communities online since a decade already, Right. I started when I was like 14 years old, across different platforms from Tumblr to Instagram to Facebook, et cetera. So that's really what got me over the edge, like the idea of like community building and that everything was stored on this blockchain ledger. So I don't know. That's really what clicked for me.
- [06:48]
Moderator
And how about you, Vee?
- [06:50]
Vee
So are you asking about NFT in particular or just crypto in general?
- [06:53]
Farouk
Well, NFTs in particular.
- [06:56]
Moderator
What did you, when you first got into it, what did you think about this technology and what did I think?
- [07:01]
Vee
Well, I have a long story, but I'm going to make it short Dory. I got into crypto back in 2012. So with that background, when I got into NFTs. I don't remember. It feels like forever 2021, 2022, but really like beginning of 2022. For me, it was a great evolution from what I had known from blockchain and crypto, which was really like one dimensional in a sense because it was really tech driven. It was great because it added that dimension, that cultural, that human dimension that was lacking to crypto and blockchain. So I really got into it and the way I got really involved was Pudgy Penguins came to me asking me to join the team and help them. So I got to be part of the core team that turned Pudgy Penguins around and I'm very proud of what we've accomplished and that that was my real, real like first experience. But the reason why I said yes to them is because I was an investor and I had invested obviously bitcoin, crypto like all over. And I had look at NFTs back in 2021 and I thought, okay, I need exposure to that. So whatever that is, wherever it goes, I still, you know, need to diversify my portfolio. So I want to have an. And so when the team came to me and I talked to the CEO Luca, our vision and the mission we had in mind for NFTs as a space and the utility of it just aligned perfectly. So I thought, okay, this is it, this is my next chapter. And then fast forward to today. Yeah, we did amazing at Poggi and got involved into world of women as a CEO six months ago. So it's pretty, pretty, but amazing things in the working. So very, very excited.
- [09:11]
Moderator
Yeah, absolutely. Great work on that Pudgy. What a comeback story that ended up being. Right. But I want to talk about, because you referenced evolution, right. And I feel like NFTs have really just like evolved so much. Right. You know, we've had, we had the whole metaverse craze. We had, you know, digit people were talking about it as digital art, as a store of value of, you know, kind of the native token, whether it's on Ether Solana. So I want to ask you two, how do you think about the evolution of NFTs from when, when it started and, and where we are today with NFTs.
- [09:43]
Vee
I check this one. This is, this is a, a good one. So obviously NFT started as two simple things, ownership and identity. And it was all around basically buying the art, collecting it and, and using it for pfp. You mentioned it. So that's how it started. But obviously we've seen a lot of evolution and today I'd say it's mainly built around two things, culture and culture and utility. And it's funny because that really allowed us to reach a broader audience as opposed to before being just centered around identity and art. So that is great. But I think we are liking, we are liking the next evolution of NFTs. I think as much as culture and utility has helped us to reach a broader audience, I think we all agree that we've reached a ceiling where we need to evolve the nft. Because if you think about it logically, what is culture? Culture is asking yourself the question, is it cool now? Right? That's why I want to participate now. But that also means it's cyclical, it is a trend, it shifts, it's replaceable, right? And that's why Ed Hardy as a brand, or Van Dutch as a brand is not there anymore. And if we see people wearing it, we're like, for those people, you know, like, it's not trendy, it's not cool anymore. So that's that. And then the utility side of it, so, so interesting because, I mean, I, I've seen a lot of NFTs building around utility and making. Making in their whole thing, right? But then if you build around that, be ready to be out utility by the next guy because someone will always come around, build something better, faster, stronger than you, and then you will be out of luck, right? You will run out of luck. But I think we have to remember culture and utility are great entry point. That's what they are. And that's why they allowed us to bring new people, because people get into it, because of the culture and the utility. Though I think there is a next evolution to it because people do not stay because of culture and utility. Otherwise we'll have, you know, we'll not be using TikTok or Instagram. We'll be still using Facebook, right? So, and we'll still be wearing Ed Hardy and Van dy, but we're not, thank God. So I think for me, when we talk about the future, right, what is the future of NFTs? For me, the layer that we're missing is the emotional connection. That's what you mistake because that is the evergreen layer. And I give you a good example, I think the perfect example of that is Disney. We, we used to use Disney as a, as a great example at Pudgy, but it really is like, if you look at Disney for culture, okay, how does Disney translate into culture? Culture is like the art is like the aesthetic of a movie. It's the princess archetype that they use. But all this changes, right? The princes that we used to love, Snow White back in the day, or like Aurora in Sleeping Beauty, who needed to be kissed to be brought to life, that has changed. Now we have Elsa in Frozen, who is a badass and doesn't need anybody, right? I mean, that changes. That is part of the culture. It changes. It is replaceable. Same with utility. If you apply that to Disney, utility for Disney is the content, the events, the art, the shows, the parks, right? That can change as well. If Disney doesn't create content tomorrow I'm going to watch Peppa Pig, I'm going to watch Baby Shark. I don't care. And Farrokh knows more than anybody else. I mean, we live in a world full of content. There's no shortage of content. Content. But so Disney doesn't win on the culture, Disney doesn't win on the utility, where Disney wins. And that's why we all love Disney and it's such a big company today. It's the emotional connection that we all have with the characters. That's what it is. And there's a thing called parasocial bonding, which is basically, we bond as we grow as a human, as we go older with something or someone. And this creates nostalgia, this creates memory, this creates identity, this creates this bond that you can't explain but follows you throughout your life. This is that secret recipe. And this is what I think is going to take NFT to the next level. Again, utility gives you access to culture, delivers relevance, but social and emotional bonding gives you longevity. This is your retention loop. This is what people comes back to, to connect. And I, not to plug in here, but my company, World of Women. Wow. We're doing that. Like we're building around that we are in NFT collection, but we're not building around the nft. We're building around the new products that are going to be built, designed around that social layer. And an example of that, we're going to launch gdp, which stands for Gaming, Gambling and Prediction Market. It's basically one platform with each product, right? Gaming, you have one gambling and you have a prediction market. But you're going to say, well, this exists already. Like, this is nothing new. Yes, you're right. But what is new is the social layer that we've built across those products. And I think it is important. And again, just to go a little deeper, and I'm going to stop there, but just a little bit to give you an example, how does that look like? It looks like Tinder. Tinder was super successful because they created the swap, right, swipe right, swipe left. They gamified the date. The date, if you like the dating aspect to it, right? So we are going to flip that on its head. We going to date ify the game. That's going to be one aspect to it. So we creating a completely new category in our space and even like in Web two. So I think, again, I'm not, I'm not talking about what a woman, my company just to, you know, to, to, to promote or anything because we don't need money, we don't need investors. I'm not here to promote that. But I think it's important because anybody in the NFT should look at that. If you're building something, if you have an NFT collections, you should look at your social layer and you should look at how strong is your social layer, because this is going to be your retention loop.
- [17:15]
Moderator
Now, you know, when you, when you mentioned that emotional connection, you know, that social layer, you know, one of the first things that popped into my head is, and we hear it so often, community, right? Community is utility or, you know, community is the next, you know, kind of meta. It's, it's, it's, it's very important to grow, especially within Web three. So for you, and I want to start with you, Farooq. How do you think about, you know, developing products? Because, you know, you, you know, you have rug radio, you know, we crib myriad or, you know, prediction market. Right? How do you think about developing products that grow the business but also stay true to the value of your community? Is it like, are you working with the community? Is it like a matter of, is the, can there be too many cooks in the kitchen? Listening to the community might. Oh, you know, you could go in way too many directions. How do you think about, how do you think about that?
- [18:06]
Farouk
I mean, the biggest problem NFT communities have and had is that there are too many cooks in the kitchen. We started out as a DAO with the rug Dao. We sold $7 million worth of NFTs in an hour in 2021, which sold out the collection. And then thanks to the rug dao, we started building, establishing members that were helping with the treasury, with this, with that. And then we tried to do this for two years. So DAO is a decentralized, autonomous organization and we tried to do it that way, but then we realized that in order to move the company forward, then it doesn't work that way. Right. I think there's a reason why Socialism or, and, or like communism didn't work out quite well. And that was very similar to that in the sense of like the thought process and the execution of things. Right. So essentially we rolled that back. But I think what's very important is to keep a line of communication with the community, but also try to understand what you believe as a founder or CEO on your team is best for that set community. So a good example is ReKT, right? You guys have seen me drink those all day and you may have had them. You know, I think OSF is one of the greatest builders in NFTs in general because he's managed to align the community incentives, which is something you're talking about, with his personal goals, right? So what he did is it started as an NFT PfP project that was free, by the way. And then he was like, okay, they tried everything, right? AI this, that. And he's like, why don't we just make a drink? Because nobody makes it like a sparkling drink, non alcoholic drink. But what he did is that he issued equity to all the NFT holders which had never been done before. So they found a legal loophole to make that happen in the usa. And every single NFT holder got X amount of shares of Direct Inc. Company, REC Brands company based on how many NFCs they held. So they had to claim them legally. It's all legal, right? And after that what they did is they launched a token, right? And you could claim X amount of token on the ethereum blockchain or C20 based on how many REC guys that you owned. And now the token sitting at $150 million, market capitalization launched at 20 million by the way. So everybody's in the money in a way. And so now you have this really cool thing where he's able to do cool things, which by the way, tonight's the X Games and they're one of the sponsors of the X Games and they just did a launch with, you know, Worldstar and this one's with Moonpay. And so now there's a community alignment, an incentive alignment. So the better the company does, they do a 10 buyback of the token with the proceeds of the, of the, of the drinks and then the bet. And so that's his vision. He's not going to ask the community, should we do a per thing with X Games? No, first of all, you're ruining the hive. And second of all, then it'll take two years to even get an approval. But he does it, he launches it. People are hyped Then this thing goes up, sells out, then the token goes up, then the incentives. The community is happy. But also they own shares. So even if they own 0.00 something percent of the company, they're happy because they feel like they have skin in the game. Now for us over at Myriad and rug radio, etc. Is what we did is we own arguably one of the largest media companies in the industry, right? We do over, you know, 100 million impressions a month. 50 million unique individuals visit our platform every year, right? The media is the second largest new site in crypto after Coindesk or pretty pret. Pretty tied up with them. Now we love Coin as a spam, but, you know, point being is that what makes sense for media. Media is like the worst business to be in, by the way, whether you want to invest or whether you want to monetize, right? Because you're either breaking it or you're. You're in the red. And the only way you make money as a founder in media companies, by selling it to a billionaire. Right? And that's even if you get there. But for us, that made no sense. Like we want to manage a way to democratize media, decentralized media, but also make media a real source of truth income. Prediction markets. You all saw what happened with Polymarket in the election where President Trump won by a landslide, but the media somehow had Kamala Harris winning. And I think that was a big aha moment for people, right? No matter who you prefer, by the way. It's just the fact that's just what happened. And so for us, like, well, why don't we launch a prediction market where our holders of the Ruggedo NFTs, et cetera, are going to be able to have skin in the game, so they're going to be able to get more points for participating in the markets. And eventually when we tokenize something we've talked about openly, right, so when the Myriad token eventually manages to come out, these holders are going to be able to claim them, but also participate within that ecosystem. So it's all about kind of like having to figure out on your own as a founder and CEO, what works for your line of work. Right? Look, so for us, we're in media prediction markets make perfect sense, right? We're a big distributor of, of content. And then for the community, what's the line? Well, crypto people love, you know, to participate within, you know, prediction markets. Within. We've seen that. And this is why within Europe we managed to do about $150 million worth of volume in the first nine months, launching 300,000 people sign up. We have 20,000 people monthly active users on the platform and, and it's working out. So it's really about kind of having to figure out on your own, but also gouging community sentiment and aligning that. Now it's very hard. I think in web 3 and crypto, the hardest thing is to make people happy and it's really hard because you have 10,000, 20,000, 50,000 people that you have to please, but at the same time you have to draw a line and understand that if you think it's the right thing and it is, and you do it well, then the community will align with that over time.
- [23:22]
Moderator
Yeah, absolutely. And I love that kind of how that has evolved because in the beginning days, it felt like a lot of people thought when they were buying an nft, they were immediately a shareholder right in the project. And it's just, I think like you said, that socialism kind of ruins it. Right. You need somebody at the top kind of driving directions and moving away from that friction. Right. So now I want to stick on this community aspect. Right. Because I think we have our community here and a lot of people are interested in NFTs, digital art and. Right. There's always communities around them. And V, I think you have a very unique perspective, perspective on this, especially, you know, with your time at pudgies. And I want to ask you directly what, especially for someone like coming into this space, they want to buy an NFT but they don't know what to do? Like, how does someone identify and like, or I guess rather, what's the difference between a community that's successful and actually sticks around and stands the test of time versus one that kind of fizzles out and just fades away and we
- [24:23]
Farouk
just never talk about anymore?
- [24:26]
Vee
Well, that's what I was saying before you. You have to. Well, first of all, are you asking me, I'm going to be very precise. Are you asking me that from like a founder standpoint or are you asking me that from a community standpoint? Like, is it. In other words, are you asking me how do people basically choose the NFT they want to be part of or.
- [24:49]
Moderator
Well, now that you mentioned the. I was originally the latter part, I want to ask other people, but now that you mentioned the founder part, I'm interested in hearing your perspective on that as well.
- [24:57]
Vee
I mean, if the question is how do people find the right NFT for them? Right. So let's, let's assume that. I think you, you have to Ask yourself two questions. Are you in it for the emotional incentive, as in to connect with other people, or are you in it for the monetary incentive, as in, as we were saying with prediction market is a great example. Like are you in it to make money? Because there are two aspects to it and that has been like both the history of NFTs, right? It's a combined history. So I think you have to ask yourself that question. And if you're in it for the emotional incentive, then I would just say just go where, go to your community or a family that shares the same value as you. Go a place where it feels home to you when you go talk to other people. Right? So I think it's just a matter of if you're in it for the art, then just stick to the art. But usually the people that buy NFTs just for the art just don't care about the, the emotional necessity aspect to it. So I would say that that is what I would advise people to go for. Just look at the values and what is the founder standing for right now? On the other side, if you are in it for the incentive, I would say only look at the founder, only look at the CEO, only look at the, basically the, the, the, the, yeah, the founder, the CEO, the, the management team because they are the ones that need to be holding that ship tight and need to be, you know, always showing up for it, even in down times. And so for me that has been like, you know, I've been in it for, since, I mean for NFT since 2021, but crypto since 2012, like I've seen it all, I've seen all the waves, I've seen the ups and downs and the basement, right? So, and I'm still in it because I have that passion for it. So I would say, yeah, look at the founder, look at the founders that actually stand for the same value as you, that get you inspired. Like, look at the people that actually are comfortable being uncomfortable because that's what it is. Especially in our space. We go through the ups and downs right now it is a down and it is uncomfortable for everybody and everybody's losing money and everybody's looking for a glimpse of hope. And you can find that in the leaders that actually on stage are doing the hard work, are, you know, trying to convince people that this is not it. There is something else that is coming. Just wait for it. And I mean, this is very uncomfortable for me. I mean I might look great, but I'm not comfortable. Guys, let me, let me put it that way. Like, there's nothing comfortable in, like, being on a stage, very vulnerable in front of strangers, nice strangers, but strangers, you know, it's not comfortable. And another thing, I hate Twitter. I hate Twitter and I should love it because I'm a leader of an NFT project. I absolutely hate Twitter. Maybe because I'm European and we didn't grow up with Twitter back in Europe. But you will see my following is 3,000. Even though I am one of the biggest leaders in the space, I'm the glue to all the famous leaders in NFTs. I've connected everybody in this space and I've been there for the longest time. But I hate Twitter. You, you see me on Twitter, you would think, like, I'm a nobody, but I'm working on it. Like, I'll be posting every day. So again, like, it goes back to what I was saying. Like, look for the people that are willing to do the uncomfortable things, those are the leaders that will be there in the rough times. Because I personally don't need to be there. I'm sure Farrokh doesn't need to be in the industry. We can retire. We don't have to be there. We here because we love what we do. We wake up every day thinking we're going to do that for our community and we're going to take it to the moon. But anyway, sorry. I get excited, but. Sorry, that's. That's my speech.
- [29:36]
Moderator
No, and I think that passion and me personally, like, when I'm. I'm an, I'm a collector, right? I love, I love NFTs and I think, me personally, especially when I'm like, looking at projects or projects that I already have, I. I know you said you hate Twitter, but, you know, Twitter is where a lot of this lives. And that's how I do a lot of my research and get to know these people.
- [29:56]
Vee
I'm a Reddit girl and I'm an in person girl. So that's how I connected with all my people in crypto. Sorry, but yeah.
- [30:03]
Raoul Pal
So a quick break in your regular programming. If you're serious about your future, grab my free report called prepare for 2030. I think you've got five years to make as much money as possible and this guide will help you navigate what's coming. The link is in the description. Download it now.
- [30:20]
Farouk
Right.
- [30:20]
Moderator
But what I wanted to say was, like, I love that passion. And that's actually one of the things I like, I listen to. I want to hear that energy in that, in that person's voice. And, like, I want to hear that it actually means something to them. Because, you know, if it means something to them, they're not just gonna, like, let it die on the vine, right? They're gonna actually work for it. And I thought that that was very. I love the way you said it because you and Farouk aren't people that need to be here, and you're here because you love it. I think that's very. That's very powerful.
- [30:47]
Farouk
Right?
- [30:47]
Moderator
And I think your communities appreciate that as well. And I think that's why you two have grown such strong communities now. I was, I know I said I want to stick on, and I still want to stick on the community, but, like, how do you grow a brand, like, with the community? Because you mentioned Disney and, like, and, and we're. We're such a new space with the NFTs. Like, none of us were around when Disney grew their brand, so we don't really see how that happened. But, like, can you kind of take us behind the scenes and, like, like, what goes on in your mind as a founder? Like, what do you think about when you're like, hey, I need to grow this brand. I need to get it out in front of people that are not in this space, right? And, and grow my. Our ecosystem, which is going to benefit your community. So how do you guys, like, think about that? Like, what goes on in your head when growing a brand?
- [31:34]
Farouk
I mean, it's really hard now, right? Growing brands outside of. First of all, like, I think the crypto crowd is, like, in terms of, like, people are some of the most, like, powerful there is because you want to build a brand within this. Everyone wants to build a brand within crypto because people have real money in crypto. Like, the buying power of the crypto participants is much higher than buying power of people, like, outside of crypto, in my opinion, for the reason that they actually have access to their money, they don't need to wait three days for JP Morgan to make a wire. So that's one of the first things. We ran an analysis on our holders once a couple years ago, and I think there was like a quarter billion dollars in people's wallets that held Rugrato NFTs, right? And it was some crazy number. I was just talking to Mando about this yesterday again. And so this is real money, right? Some people, I mean, maybe it's less now because it was two years ago. Their price is maybe a little less now, but you get the. You get the point, right? And so I think the Most important thing first is like to try and build a strong foothold within this niche. Like, I think NFT brands and crypto brands try to go outside way too fast and then just get burnt. Like you said, Disney has a foothold. Disney's massive in 2021, every single NFT, yo, I'm going to be the Disney of that. I'm going to be the freaking McDonald's of this. I'm like, dude, you're never going to be. I'm sorry, it's not because you can't, but it's because you can't just like sell out NFTs and think you can just take out Mickey Mouse, dude. You know what I mean? And you know, I felt the delusion too and we all did because we're just like bullish and we're excited and we're, we're genuine about it and we love this shit, right? But it's just like I started real weird. Like I'm not going to go and take out Fox News day one, but maybe over the next few years we'll be bigger than them within crypto, which we probably already are, right? So it's like, I think focus first and foremost on like your core group, like those 20,000 Worldwoman holders or there, those 20,10,000 Myriad Markets participants or like the Real Vision core crew. Like that could be much more interesting than trying to like go into a bigger pond, right? I think that's the first step. And the second step is once you have that foothold within crypto, right, Once you've already built that brand, that narrative, which takes years, right? Then try and get out there. And I'm sorry, I'm going to use the same example user like what these guys did, they did collaborations with Coinbase, Moonpay, Jupiter three of the major brands within crypto, right? Arguably. And now they're finally doing Year two, they're finally doing X Games and World Star and they'll probably do other brands, like little things like that. I think that's how you do like Pudgy Penguin, same thing. I've been a pudgy holder since the first day. Like I was one of the earliest supporters of Luca, etc. He's a good friend of mine, same thing. He built an extremely strong brand within crypto, took it to the moon and then went to Walmart and then went to this. And why? Because Walmart looks at us like a very powerful group of buyers. They see us, they see dollar signs, literally, right? Even especially the tax man, right? So it's Like, I think use that to your advantage when wanting to grow a brand within the space, whether it's personal or like a brand like this or what, you know, V's building, and then take it out through collaboration. I think that's like your forte. Because everybody wants a piece of crypto. Like, we talked about this with Mando this morning on RectVision in Davos. Crypto3, 2 years ago I went to Davos, was like, we. We hosted an event like in the pub, like in the corner, little thing that smelled like, you know, whatever. And now crypto was like, yet President Trump, cz Lutnick, everybody and their mothers was talking about tokenization. Even now, I think of assets at Davos. So they're coming and they're going to want a piece of all the brands that we're building. And that's the way I see it. So it's just about really building from inside first and then focusing on the collaboration outside. Because let me tell you, outside of crypto, outside of our little bubble, which I love, everybody wants a piece of us. It's just about managing to get to that point first.
- [35:29]
Moderator
Now, kind of, you know, few years ago we heard, and I think Gary Vee, I heard him saying this a lot, like 99% of NFTs, like 99.9 of NFTs aren't gonna last. Do you guys still think that's true today?
- [35:44]
Farouk
I mean, happen, right? He.
- [35:46]
Moderator
I sat down with GaryVee.
- [35:47]
Farouk
I was just chilling with him, having lunch. I know him for a minute. And then I was like, yeah, I'm doing this thing, rug radio, blah, blah, blah, running it by him shooting the. And he's like, just make sure when time comes to take your money off the table, because 99 of these projects going to zero. It's like, no, Gary, dude, you stick me. You're wrong. He was talking about like, this guy's like 30 years older than me. And of course I knew better than him, right? And I lost like 90% of my portfolio like six months after Gary, if he was right. But. But, you know, point being is that he was right. Like, look at NFTs nowadays. This is just a fact. But it's just not just NFTs, all the crypto, it's the altcoin market, it's the meme coin market, it's everything, right? But that's again, going back to what V was saying. Focus on that 1% that's actually doing the thing. Like always look in the bare market, who's actually doing the thing. Right. Mando, who you all know, didn't leave one day. We host those show together. We've hosted 3,000 episodes of FOMO Hour five days a week for the last four years together. When we were doing 10,000 views a day, whether we were doing 80 viewers a day, which happened in the summer of 2022, we were still here. And now look at our brands. Yeet. His casino he's built is crushing it. We're crushing it, Rex. Crushing. So look at those. The people that are within that 1% that are actually sticking around during the Bear Bear, Bear markets and are just trying to figure out. I wouldn't say judge them based on their pivots because maybe you have to pivot just how it is, but judge them on like, are they actually showing up and do they have the great passion, dedication to keep it going and stick to that. So yes, Gary's right and he will always be right. And there will be more memes, more alts, more projects, more ICOs, more everything. And 99 of them will always go to zero. But if you focus on that 1%, I think that's life changing enough.
- [37:29]
Moderator
Yeah, I definitely want to pivot to meme coins in a bit because, you know, talking about culture, you know, evolving. Right. But before we do that, I. Because Farouk, you touched on something that I wanted to ask, because how do you manage, especially as a founder.
- [37:47]
Farouk
Right?
- [37:47]
Moderator
Because NFTs and Web3, one of the things that we thought about this was, you know, transparency. Right. So how do you manage building in the open and kind of letting people know, like, hey, this is what I'm doing versus like building in private and kind of, you know, surprising people. Right. How do you guys think of that? I want both of you, you know, your takes on both of this.
- [38:07]
Farouk
It's super hard. First and foremost, you have to have a presence on X. Sorry, guys. Sorry V. I'm so sorry. But it's kind of like what works best or at least be present with your, your community setup. But that's just the expectation in a way you could tell that like some projects success is directly tied to how successful their founders are. I think recently when Alon, founder of Pump Farm, went silent in Q4 2025, you saw a sharp decline in the Pump token. And then when he tweeted the first week of January, I think pump had a 12% candle in one hour. And so. And we're talking about a billion five, you know, in market capitalization for that. So I think this speaks volumes to that. Should it always Be that way. Is that bullish? I don't know. But just saying that it's. There's a correlation. I think it's about managing expectations. I think in 2021, NFTs were so delusional that we had to check, like I was doing a town hall every single week saying, this is what we're working on. This where almost like a checklist to my mom, but to my holders. Now, wait, this is not. It's actually, this is the best way to burn out, FYI. And then it was bi weekly and then monthly, and then we started cutting that off. And you know, we recently ran through this issue, actually last week, where some people could be unhappy with the way, let's say Myriad is going because it takes a long time to build a damn prediction market. But if you look from inside, I'm like, every time I'm so bullish because I know about the announcements that we've got coming. Like last week we announced a partnership with were Liberty FI, right? Which is President Trump's project, etc. We're the first prediction market to do USD1 pools. And the week after, we launched a wallet with moonpay. And yesterday we announced the Ton foundation thing. I knew this was coming, but last month, in December, because it's the holidays. You're not announcing anything with the holidays. Duh. From media perspective, makes no sense, but people are like, yo, like, people are home. So, like, what's happening? This project's dying. This is soon. I'm like. And I want to just like scream like, this is what's going. But I can't because also legally speaking, I'm not allowed to announce that I'm doing something World Liberty file until January, whatever, right? And there's embargoes and there's news and then Bloomberg is going to call you and then this and that. So it's just like managing that expectation. I have to say, I don't know, because no matter how transparent and active we are, I think I'm one of the most active people on X in the history of crypto. There's like 80,000 tweets. I host a show every day. I have 400,000 followers. You can't be more doxed than me. And I still managed to get some criticism somehow constructive as well on how we're doing it. So I don't know, Bijan, I don't think anybody's cracked the code there and I don't think anybody ever will because you're never going to manage to make everyone happy. Maybe you have the solution.
- [40:50]
Moderator
Have you cracked code?
- [40:51]
Farouk
Have you cracked the code?
- [40:52]
Vee
I mean, look at my Twitter. Who's cracked the code? No, but it's interesting because you have the polar opposites here, like the, the profiles. You have the best marketer, the best media guru in our space and you have the leader that has done a lot for our space but is completely silent. Because I don't, I'm not a social media person. I, I like to operate usually in the cur, behind the curtain. That's why nobody knows me at Pudgy, even though I was very, extremely instrumental. And even Lucas says himself, like without V, Pudgy wouldn't exist anymore. So you have both polar opposites. I think there's no secret recipe like Farrokh say. I think you have to find the thing that works for you. And I think I have to be honest here. I'm still trying to understand what works for me because again, you know it better than anybody. Like it's taxing to be always on social media and having to communicate 24 7, but at the same time, CT, crypto, Twitter needs that because they feed off this information to make their own decision about NFTs in general. Right. So, but at the same time, where do you then find the time to actually do the work on building a company from your NFT product? Right. And so for me, I'm the doer. I work, I have my heads down and I work and I'm going to do, do it silently, but when you hear me, you're going to hear me because I have something big to announce. So I'm more of the silent type. Again, I don't think there's a perfect recipe. I think it depends. But I'll let you know when I find the solution. I don't know, I'm still testing, so. Yes, but Meme coins, huh?
- [42:54]
Moderator
Yeah, no, we're just, just to wrap a bow on that. I think that it's a double edged sword, right? You, you say something's coming and then, you know, some, a lot of things can happen. You hit with delays, you know, things out of your control and you have everyone asking when, when, when. And if you don't say anything, then everyone's like, oh, this guy's lazy, he's not doing anything. Sitting on a beach somewhere, doesn't care about us. So yeah, it is very tough. Right.
- [43:16]
Farouk
Just shipping is a solution to.
- [43:17]
Moderator
Yeah, yeah.
- [43:19]
Farouk
Other ship people will see if you pull shit or not.
- [43:21]
Moderator
Yeah, absolutely.
- [43:23]
Farouk
So, yeah.
- [43:23]
Moderator
Meme coins.
- [43:26]
Farouk
So talking about financial advice. Yeah.
- [43:28]
Moderator
Not find it nfa all of that. Right.
- [43:31]
Farouk
Medical advice.
- [43:34]
Moderator
But like talking about how this culture has evolved. Right. We've seen Meme Coins just really just hit the waves and just be. Just take over. Absolutely. Like almost everything in our space. Right. For at least the time.
- [43:47]
Vee
How do you.
- [43:48]
Moderator
How do you guys think of NFT or Meme Coins? Is it. Do you think it's good for our space? Do you think it's bad for our space? Are you kind of like indifferent on it? Like, what's your. What's your general opinion on. On Meme Coins? And then we'll kind of just go from there.
- [44:01]
Vee
I don't know if I should tell you about my Meme coin love story. Maybe not. Maybe for another time. Because. Because I'm a hodler, so I don't do Meme coins. Or have I have a little bit. But I think Meme Coins is so interesting. You know, you may love it or you may hate it because you've lost a lot of money, but. But it is still essential to Iospace because it has taught us critical lessons. And to go back to what we. I was saying earlier, for me personally, I think it taught me and taught the whole space that again, utility doesn't matter. We don't care about utility. Meme Coins is the proof of that. It has no whatsoever utility at all. Okay? But what matters. And that's why they were so successful, because Meme Coins were a big hit. They still somewhat something. It was successful because of the attention, because of the identity and because of the culture linked to each of them. Right? That is your entry point. That is what drove people into Meme Coins. Now again, it's your entry point, it's not your retention loop. So let me ask you, everybody, by a show of hands, who made money on Meme coins? Congratulations, guys. Well done. Okay, on the other side, don't be shy. Who lost money on Meme Coins? Yes. Welcome to the club, guys. Welcome to the club. Here we go. And that's what I mean, right? I mean utility is not a thing. But attention, identity and culture is not a thing either. Long term, because we've seen history is showing that Meme Coins goes to exactly zero. That's what I was pointing out, about to point out. Exactly. Except Dogecoin and Pepe as well. I think those are two good examples of like Meme coins being able to survive and sustain itself. But the reason why they did that is because that ugly frog and that optimistic dog actually have meaning for people. They mean something. They are symbols of the Internet. Culture. Right. So. And that is your, your emotional connection. That's. It's right there. That it is. That's. That's it, basically. And that's why for me, meme coins are so interesting because they're the proof that utility culture are not things. Long term they are. Short terms can be very successful, but long term, it's not a thing.
- [47:15]
Farouk
I think that frog is beautiful.
- [47:18]
Vee
There you go. Emotional attachment.
- [47:23]
Farouk
Because I am like the top 50 biggest fake Pepe fake rare Pepe collector on chain.
- [47:28]
Moderator
But
- [47:31]
Farouk
I mean, yeah, I mean, I think if you don't like meme coins, you may as well not even like. It's just. It's part of crypto. It's part of DNA. It's nothing you can do or change about it, whether you like it or not. Right. It's just. It's always going to be there. You can also hate casinos. I love blackjack. Hit the casino here and there, play a little roulette. 17 black's my favorite number. That's never going to change. Right. And the similar things happening in the space. But what's so different from meme coins and trading perps, right? Except you can't get liquid in meme coin, however, you can get rugged very fast and they go to zero. So as long as you know your risk, which you've said well enough, then that's just part of the game. At the end of the day, the asymmetrical gain min coins offer to people is enough to keep people on the edge. You're not going to make a thousand x on bitcoin. You're not going to make a thousand x in any major, as a matter of fact, or any altcoin at the, at this stage. But you may hit a thousand x on a meme coin, and that's just the truth right now. You have to be really lucky. And that happens to maybe the 0.01%. But there's always going to be that one story on X, like I turned this amount to that amount and that's enough for people to make them return to the meme coin casino. And that's how you need to treat it. You just tokenize the shin of Internet culture. And they're going to exist as long as crypto exists. Right. And you've seen like Pump Fund is arguably one of the most successful companies in the history of companies, not just crypto. I think it made a billion dollars in its first year in revenue of profit or something. Right. Close to that in its first year in operation. I don't think there's been one company in the history of companies that's ever done that. Right. It's one of the most successful examples. So there's appetite for this, and it's. It's always going to be like that, you know, now it's like you said, utility is almost a forest. So sometimes I look at meme coins and people who don't like meme coins, I'm like, well, you're selling me the 17th L1. And you know what? Like, I kind of rather buy MOG because at least I'm not being lied to. It's just in their culture. And I know what I'm getting with it.
- [49:28]
Vee
You know, just to be fair, I'm not saying I don't like meme.
- [49:32]
Farouk
You said you like them. I like what you said.
- [49:33]
Vee
Yeah, exactly. Okay.
- [49:35]
Farouk
You made perfect. No, I agree with you. What you said is right. It's like, you know, your risk, it's gonna go to zero. And actually, now they rug faster than ever did. The average hold time on Solana, I think, is down to 30 seconds, literally. I think there was a. Someone did some research on chain. 30 seconds. So now instead of getting rugged in, like, three days, you get rugged in 30 seconds, by the way. So if you're not tapped in, like, don't buy meme coins. That's why I have to take a step back from it, because, damn, I just can't even keep up with the work. But just saying there's still this asymmetrical gain, and they're always going to be around, and as long as you treat it for what they are, then you're never going to get mad at it.
- [50:10]
Moderator
Yeah, I really like what you guys said about nobody caring about utility. I feel like there have been meme coins that try to add utility to their coin and then immediately just tank their price. Nobody wants that with meme coins. They just want to, like. Like Faro said, like, they want to enjoy. Get involved in the crypto casino, you know, be in the trenches. Right. But I've. And within my. Our Real Vision community, we have a degen channel, and at first, it was literally all meme coins, and. And I was very surprised at the way they were approaching it because we had people charting meme coins, and then they weren't really approaching it from a cultural perspective. They were approaching it from a charting perspective. And I wanted to get your guys's take. Can you chart even meme coins and, like, find these entries? Like, what goes, like, how. How. You know, like, so. So it is like a. So it's a cultural thing. Right. Your tokenizing culture, and I've heard it referred to as kind of liquid and more liquid versions of NFTs. And then you have communities like SPX that are, you know, I'm going to flip the S&P 500 and then like, they actually have like a goal behind it.
- [51:18]
Raoul Pal
So.
- [51:19]
Farouk
But.
- [51:19]
Moderator
So it's just fascinating to hear about, you know, 30 getting. Getting rugged in 30 seconds as opposed to three days.
- [51:25]
Farouk
Right.
- [51:25]
Moderator
It's very different from NFTs in a sense.
- [51:27]
Farouk
I mean, I don't think you can do, you know, I mean, a TA is astrology for men. Right. And. And I think, you know, you can't really chart a meme coin unless you're talking about a major like Dogecoin, but that's not really like Rice expanded it. Right. Or Pepe for say, like, that was great now, but, you know. Yeah, yeah, I. I think that could be wrong.
- [51:47]
Vee
Yeah. No, just stick to Dodge and Pepe.
- [51:49]
Farouk
Yeah.
- [51:50]
Vee
Just, I mean, you know, just to be safe.
- [51:52]
Moderator
Right.
- [51:53]
Farouk
Yeah.
- [51:53]
Vee
I mean, no financial advice.
- [51:55]
Moderator
No, not at all. Right. I think for me, at least, I don't. I never charted it. I just, I think from at least the way I looked at meme coins is if it makes me laugh or if I get the meme, I'm buying it. Like Fartcoin, for example. I heard someone talking about it on a space. It was like 25 million market cap. And I just started, I was just laughing just to myself and I was like, I have to buy all there is to it. Yeah.
- [52:16]
Farouk
Nothing else.
- [52:17]
Moderator
That's why there's no financial advice in this.
- [52:18]
Vee
Yeah. No people. That's a great point. I mean, people are in it just to have fun. They want to have fun, they want to participate into something that brings them joy. That's all it is. And especially in our space, that's all it is. We're young and we, we knew, you know, we going through that economy, that is rubbish, really. And we just want to have a break. We want to have fun. That's it. That's why it's working.
- [52:45]
Farouk
Yeah.
- [52:46]
Moderator
So, you know, kind of before we wrap up here, I want to ask you to, you know, we talked about how NFTs have evolved, but I want to kind of ask you two about, like, not necessarily where it's going, but, like, what excites you most about the future of this space? Yeah. We'll start with that,
- [53:07]
Vee
shall I?
- [53:07]
Farouk
Yeah. V. Go ahead, please.
- [53:09]
Vee
Thank you. What excites me about Web3 in the future, in the space. Here's. I'm going to give you one statement and I can expand on it. But what excite me and what I'm thinking about and that might be controversial, But I think Web3 has to disappear to go mainstream. And let me explain what I mean by that. I think we've been trying to force mainstream people like Web two people to just learn Web three, learn how to use a wallet, learn how to use a blockchain, learn what is tokens, learn what is a protocol. We've been forcing people to learn Web3 so that they use it. Right. I don't think anybody wants to be forced to learn something that they don't want to learn about. Humans are lazy. Okay, we all lazy, aren't we? We all lazy. I mean, yes. Thank you, thank you. So I don't feel like I'm the only one in the room that is lazy. Thank you. We are lazy. That's just like our nature. If you want people to use something, you have to make it simple. You have to make products that work and simplify people's lives. That's the only way you're going to get to mainstream. So make it simple so that people can use it to be even more lazy, basically, bottom line. But what excites me is AI. But AI combined with web3 because I think web3 is not going to go mainstream if we continue putting it as the front end. It has to be back end because it is too complex for mainstream. It is. It has great properties, right? Ownership and ownership and trust. But it is bulky and it is hard to use. AI is intelligence, right? It's thinking. It is though centralized control. But if you combine the two, it creates an intelligent system that is easy to use. So make Web three the back end. People don't have to understand how it works. They don't care. We don't care how to how the Internet works. But we love it. We use it every day. Right? Make it backhand. Web3 and front end. You use AI to make it accessible for people to use. I think about it that way. I think AI is going to make Web three usable and Web three is going to make AI safe, fair and hopefully monetizable for everybody if we do things right. So that's the way I'm excited about the combo of AI and Web3 for our future.
- [56:20]
Moderator
Farouk, same question to you.
- [56:21]
Farouk
I mean, I'm excited about prediction markets. You know, we haven't scraped this, we just scraped the surface here. You saw the rise of polymarket in Kalshi last year, especially with the raises, right. They're going billion for billion. At the end of the year, I think polymarket went all the way to $12 billion valuation raise and with $2 billion coming from the, from ICE themselves, right. And then couching the 10 billion mark and then the rise of more and more markets coming out. You know, we're talking about a multi trillion dollar asset class that's coming out. You know what I love about prediction markets is unlike meme coins, etc, those are just metas, right? There's just things that come and go. Whereas prediction markets, we're actually revolutionizing futures contracts, right? Like we're, we're, we're able to trade these things and soon we'll be able to trade them maybe on the stock exchange. There was a point in time in the twenties where prediction markets were actually doing more volume than the stock exchange. And then they kind of almost like purposely killed them off and made them somewhat illegal. And you've seen this entire, this huge comeback. So I'm really excited for legislation around this. I'm excited for the Clarity act to pass. I'm excited for all these things that's going to allow this industry to thrive even more. Even though, you know, for the longest time with the previous administration we were like every single homie of mine had an sec, you know, wells notice and thankfully now they're all gone, right? And we're able to finally like do things, you know, whether even though prices are down and from a trading standpoint it's demoralizing AF to being crypto, when you see silver rip and then you're like Bitcoin is just like down making a new low every single day. You're like what am I doing here? You know? And they're tokenizing the entire stock exchange, like what? My, my altcoins are useless, you know, and, and from a trading standpoint it could be super demoralizing. But from a founding position and from a, from an operational standpoint, I don't think there's ever been a better time in the history than to, than now, than to, to be a founder in crypto.
- [58:05]
Moderator
So I'm super excited about that.
- [58:06]
Farouk
Like, I think this is like really cool and I'm excited for, for obviously I'm tunnel vision on prediction markets right now because that's what I should be. And so I'm really excited for the growth of that asset class this year.
- [58:18]
Moderator
Yeah, absolutely. I mean I'm excited for both of them. I'm excited for AI.
- [58:21]
Vee
I'm Excited? I was about to ask you what are you excited about?
- [58:23]
Farouk
What are you excited about? Dude?
- [58:25]
Moderator
No, I'm, I, I, I'm excited for both of those things honestly, as prediction markets really like they just really fascinate me just as, and I don't want to compare them to gambling, but they just as somebody who like, who knows that world there's really fascinating me. I, I, I talk to friends about it. It's like, it's kind of like gamifying life in a sense. Like you just, there's random things just I think that that space is going to absolutely, absolutely blow up. And I'm, and I'm just really excited to see what, where both of you are going to take your perspective projects and companies. And I think we're all excited to see that we're going to follow that journey. And then kind of selfishly because I have, you know, the CEO of World of Women on the stage. I want to want to share a story because NFTs, honestly they really did change my life. I was just some random DJ that, you know, just made an, and for me at least at the time, an obscene amount of money off of GameStop and I ended up like losing it everywhere else I put it, I took, I had this money and I put it everywhere and I lost all of it.
- [59:29]
Vee
Right.
- [59:29]
Moderator
I didn't buy bitcoin with it because I thought, you know, bitcoin's a rich man's game. I'm not going to make any money off of that. And then I stumbled upon World of Women in their early days and that ended up actually saving my entire portfolio and allowed me to actually stay in crypto and that's how we do it as a person. So I want to, I want to just thank that project and I'm really excited to see where you end up taking it. And Farouk, I'm really excited to see how you move this entire space forward because I think a lot of people, I know, me in particular, when I first got into NFTs, you were the first person I followed and that I kind of learned a lot from and I think just love seeing both of yours. There's evolutions and maturity in the space, so looking forward to that. I want to thank you two for joining us today.
- [60:15]
Vee
Thank you.
- [60:16]
Moderator
And yeah, thank you everyone as well for attending.
- [60:19]
Vee
Thank you.
- [60:22]
Raoul Pal
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