Rational Security – "The Inadequate Chicken Moved to Inferior Location" Special End-of-Year Edition (Dec 30, 2025)

Podcast: Rational Security
Hosts: Scott R. Anderson, Quinta Jurecic, Alan Rozenshtein, with regulars Benjamin Wittes, Anna Bauer, Tyler McBrien
Producer: The Lawfare Institute
Date: December 30, 2025

Episode Overview

This special end-of-year edition of Rational Security veers slightly from its usual focus on national security and foreign policy headlines, taking on questions and object lessons submitted by listeners. The episode is marked by a blend of lighthearted holiday spirit (including a small-town chicken controversy) and substantive discussions about the state of global affairs, war powers, democratic backsliding, and the legacy of mainstay figures in U.S. legal and political life. The tone is conversational and wry, evidencing the hosts’ camaraderie and shared expertise.

Holiday Vibes and the Gainesville Chicken Debacle

• Opening Anecdote (00:44–03:54):
  • Anna Bauer shares a hometown story: Gainesville, Georgia—the "chicken capital of the world"—endured local scandal when a new building owner removed the beloved annual light-up chicken sculpture from the town square. The replacement was criticized as too slick and corporate, sparking local outrage.
  • Notable Quote:
    Anna: "People hate the new chicken because it looks very corporate. It's not ugly and dorky and kind of charming like the other chicken that we all loved." (02:43)
  • Benjamin Wittes humorously summarizes: "Inadequate chicken move to inferior location." (03:43)

Listener Q&A: Global Affairs, Law, & Institutions

1. Western Europe's Place in Great Power Competition

Topic: Is Western Europe still in the U.S. sphere of influence?
Key Points:

• Benjamin Wittes (06:55) explains that traditionally, Western Europe is in the American sphere, but the Trump administration’s antagonism toward European interests is pushing the alliance to a breaking point.
  • "The United States right now is extremely hostile to Western Europe, to Western European security interests, and frankly, to their own vision of their own statehood." (07:25)
  • Enumerates Europe’s strategic options:
    1. Ignore the change.
    2. Triangulate with Russia/China.
    3. Seek independent security/regulatory policies.
• Scott Anderson (09:53) underscores European agency; U.S. treating Europe as subordinate risks pushing Europe to real autonomy.
• Tyler McBrien (11:41): "Spheres of influence are much more fluid in this moment than, let's say, the height of the Cold War."

2. Trump’s Lawsuit Against the BBC

Topic: What does Trump v. BBC reveal about media and lawsuits?
Crux:

• Tyler McBrien (12:29): The lawsuit is part of Trump’s broader media-hostility strategy—merely symbolic, given the BBC broadcast in question never aired in Florida.
• Scott Anderson (14:34): The suit is about optics and influencing the BBC at a vulnerable moment, less about legal merit.

3. Attorney General Merrick Garland’s Record

Question: How should AG Garland’s legacy be judged, especially post-Trump?
Insights:

• Anna Bauer (16:27): Garland’s decisions mattered less than Supreme Court timing; the DOJ’s slow, methodical approach may not have changed outcomes given eventual Supreme Court interventions.
• Benjamin Wittes (20:16): Even had DOJ moved faster, it likely wouldn't have impacted the ultimate Supreme Court freezing or dismissal of Trump-related cases.

4. Legality and Checks on U.S. Counter-Narcotics Operations

Topic: Legality and oversight of U.S. boat strikes, "counter-narcotics" actions.
Discussion:

• Scott Anderson (21:33) details executive dominance, the lack of real judicial oversight, and Congress’s limited will or capacity to constrain military actions.
• Benjamin Wittes (25:32): "The relevant check and balance here is Congress. Congress could stop this tomorrow if it cared enough about it to do it."
• Counterpoint: Anderson (26:52) argues it’s practically hard for Congress to impose meaningful constraints, given veto requirements and political hurdles.

5. Lessons from the Iraq War for Contemporary U.S. Rhetoric

Question: What should be remembered from Iraq War lead-up amid new U.S. Caribbean confrontation rhetoric?
Key Takeaways:

• Benjamin Wittes (29:34): In contrast to Bush's Iraq policy (misguided but sincere), current "narco-terrorist" rhetoric lacks corresponding belief within government.
  • "The Bush administration … was actually operating in good faith. ... Here I think there is not actually a lot of evidence that anybody in government … actually believes that the Maduro regime is ... a bunch of narco terrorists waging war on the United States..."
• Wittes admits civil libertarians' "slippery slope" warnings were correct.
• Scott Anderson (32:24): U.S. public skepticism of military intervention is now higher, reducing risk of an Iraq-style rush to war.

6. Reversing the Tolerance of Democratic Backsliding

Q: Is the U.S. slipping into "illiberal democracy," and what can be done?
Responses:

• Tyler McBrien (36:55): Expresses greater worry not just at public tolerance but at active embrace of illiberalism, urges defense of rule of law, and creative, positive projects for democracy.
  • "If people enter the thrall of fascism based on these promises of will and imagination, I think the ... political project to fight it should also have a sense of imagination to it. It can't just be a promise of return to normalcy."
• Benjamin Wittes (39:18): Advocates activism, non-cooperation, and creative protest: "Everybody should be getting involved in things. ... People should be being very experimental."
• Scott Anderson (41:26): Remains an institutional optimist: "There are real mechanisms in place, political ones, democratic checks that still have a lot of force."

Notable/Ridiculous Moments

• Putin Fight Challenge (43:49):
  • Listener Angie asks if Ben Wittes’s challenge to a martial arts fight with Vladimir Putin still stands.
  • Wittes responds: "If you watch Putin recently, I don't think he's up to fighting me anymore. ... That said, I'm not a sportsmanlike guy. The offer still stands. Here are the rules. Number one, I will meet him anytime, any place. He can't have me arrested after he's taken an independent drug test. And that's it. So Estonia has offered to host the fight, and I'm still waiting."
    (43:49–45:12)
  • Possible expansion to "sumo wrestling" if requested—but only if fair.

Crowd-Sourced Object Lessons (Listener Recommendations & Book Picks)

The episode ends with a medley of listener-submitted "object lessons," ranging from photography books to new podcasts, video games, and fiction:

• Photography Books:

  • "Building Stories" by Alistair Philip Wipers (47:00)
  • "The Final Days of the Waterford Bicycle Factory" by Tucker and Anna Schwinn (47:04)

• Podcast Recommendations:

  • "Sources and Methods" (NPR’s weekly national security podcast) (47:38)
  • "Secrets and Spies" and "The Rest is Classified" (48:07)

• Other Recommendations:

  • Ukrainian sumo wrestler Ao Nishiki as a cultural curiosity (49:33)
  • Video game: Claire Obscure Expedition 33 (51:14)

• Book Series:

  • "Sun Eater" series (53:21)
  • Multiple fiction book recommendations from the hosts:
    • Tyler: Elif Batuman’s "The Idiot" and its sequel (55:58)
    • Anna: Donna Tartt’s "The Secret History" & Kurt Vonnegut novels (56:57)
    • Ben: Phil Kaye’s "Redeployment" (as a companion to civil-military nonfiction) (58:44)
    • Scott: New Pynchon novel "Shadow Ticket" and rereading "Lord of the Rings" aloud to his son, recommending the accompanying Reader’s Companion (60:25)

Memorable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• Anna on the Great Chicken Lighting: "It’s not ugly and dorky and kind of charming like the other chicken that we all loved." (02:43)
• Wittes: "Inadequate chicken move to inferior location." (03:43)
• Wittes on Europe/U.S. relations: "We are a highly unreliable guarantor of [Europe’s] security." (07:25)
• Anderson: "If the Trump administration gets what it wants, 10 years from now, they’re going to be much less in our sphere of influence, not more." (10:44)
• Tyler: "Spheres of influence are much more fluid in this moment than, let’s say, the height of the Cold War." (11:41)
• Wittes (on activist democracy): "If you’re not getting involved in things that are active, things that you can do that feel right, that is the missing piece right now." (39:18)
• Wittes (on Putin fight): "He may have passed the point where it’s a fair fight. ... That said, I’m not a sportsmanlike guy. The offer still stands." (43:49)

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment | Topic | Timestamps | |---------|-------|------------| | Holiday Chicken story | Gainesville, GA | 00:44–03:54 | | Europe’s spheres of influence | U.S.-Europe relations | 06:55–11:41 | | Trump v. BBC lawsuit | Media lawsuits | 12:21–15:43 | | Garland’s legacy & Jan. 6 prosecutions | DOJ & Jan. 6 aftermath | 16:27–21:05 | | Legal checks on U.S. strikes | War powers | 21:33–28:38 | | Iraq War lessons & Venezuela | Rhetoric & parallels | 29:03–34:31 | | Defending democracy | Democratic backsliding | 36:17–43:21 | | Putin fight challenge | Ben vs. Putin | 43:33–45:39 | | Object Lessons | Listener recommendations | 46:50–65:37 |

Conclusion

This playful but substantial episode of Rational Security closes out 2025 with humor, historical reflection, institutional critique, and a smorgasbord of recommendations. Amid the frivolity (holiday chickens, martial arts challenges), the hosts return frequently to lessons about resilience, skepticism of power, and the hard work of democratic repair. Their take-home message, fittingly: stay engaged, stay creative, and remember to read good books.