Rational Security — “The Pawing at Scott” Edition
Lawfare Podcast, January 29, 2026
Host: Scott R. Anderson
Guests: Alan Rosenstein, Molly Roberts, Eric Columbus
Overview
In this eclectic, tech-oriented episode of Rational Security, host Scott R. Anderson is joined by Lawfare colleagues Alan Rosenstein, Molly Roberts, and Eric Columbus to dissect two major stories: the escalating Minneapolis immigration enforcement crisis and its national legal/political ramifications, plus the release of Anthropic’s “Claude Constitution,” a philosophical step in AI governance. The team weaves in local color (ice storms, unruly kittens), sharp legal and ethical analysis, and characteristic wit as they dig into some of the week’s thorniest national security debates.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Minneapolis Immigration Crisis and National Backlash
[06:30–46:07]
The Situation on the Ground
- Context: The police killing of ICU nurse Alex Preddy by Border Patrol agents in Minneapolis has triggered a national backlash against the Trump administration’s immigration enforcement policies and ICE’s tactics.
- Alan (09:24): “The vibes are bad... Just to know that there are a mass number of masked, armed paramilitary troops in your city who are just doing a very bad job, who are not here for any obvious policy purpose... It’s a very strange place to do this because there's not a very large immigrant community here.”
Political Ramifications & Shifting Rhetoric
- Scott (16:05): Notes unusual bipartisan condemnation, including striking statements from Republicans like Chris Medell, who called out “the national Republican stated retribution on the citizens of our state.”
- Molly (17:56): Outlines political shift: “When Trump even said, when he dispensed with the language of gunmen and started to say, ‘I don’t like seeing anyone killed,’ it was as if he created permission for both those more moderate people and slightly more conservative people to also say they don’t like what’s going on here.”
Tactics, Accountability & Legal Pushback
- Leadership reshuffle: Greg Bovino, the local ICE chief, is replaced with Tom Homan, signaling a possible change in tactics but not necessarily in policy direction.
- Molly (19:33): “He’s not as interested in just being out on the street conducting indiscriminate sweeps... But he’s also not like a softy on immigration. This is the family separation policy guy...”
- Blame game: High-level Trump advisors, like Stephen Miller, face growing criticism for their direct hand in messaging—an unusual sign of vulnerability.
- Scott (21:41): “That’s the sign of someone on the defensive. And that particularly is important [...] because Miller is so often seen as having a direct line to the president...”
Crackdown on Protesters & Legal Overreach
- Eric (25:04): Describes highly aggressive and legally extraordinary DOJ actions in pursuing protesters—abusing the FACE Act (normally for abortion clinic disruptions) to target protesters at a church:
- “This is an instance where they were literally making a federal case out of something that did not deserve to be one. [...] They just adopted all sorts of unusual approaches, from trying to deny bail... to seeking mandamus before the 8th Circuit...”
- Judge backlash: Chief Judge Patrick Schiltz (a Bush appointee) is “fed up” with the DOJ’s tactics.
- Eric (31:04): “Everything DOJ is doing is out of touch with reality... the judge may respond himself... He says that everything DOJ is doing is out of touch with reality. [...] This is not some lefty squish... and he has had it, he's had enough.”
Aggressive Federalism & State Pushback
- Minnesota officials threaten criminal investigations/prosecution of federal agents; state files anti-commandeering/sovereign immunity lawsuits:
- Alan (39:49): “Just because you, the state, allege that a federal official broke state law and they did so outside the bounds of their federal authority, you don’t have to automatically win. [...] A federal officer goes and just like murders someone in cold blood... There’s no federal immunity there.”
- Scott (42:52): “Progressives are rediscovering federalism... There are real limits here. They've just never been litigated because no executive branch has ever pushed it this far. That’s really interesting.”
2. Anthropic’s Claude Constitution: Philosophy Meets AI Governance
[46:07–70:06]
What Is the Claude Constitution?
- Anthropic’s “Constitution” is a public declaration of ethical values and behavioral guidance for its flagship AI, Claude.
- Scott (46:25): “Talk to us about what the Claude Constitution is and what it’s trying to do that’s most interesting in your mind... what it says, and then what it may be trying to do beyond that.”
“Virtue Ethics” Approach
- Alan (46:25): “When you read these documents, you’re like, ‘Huh, this feels like a philosophy article because it’s a philosophy article written by an actual reasonably professional philosopher.’”
- The system is guided by values and character traits—‘virtue ethics’—not just rigid rules or utilitarian calculations:
- “What they’re betting on is that instead of trying to give Claude a lot of very specific rules... Instead, we’re trying to give Claude judgment, give it a list of interesting values to take into account... use your judgment.”
- Anthropic intentionally avoids micro-managing the model with endless rules, instead aiming for a more robust and flexible AI “personality.”
Practical Example & Open Questions
- Molly (53:18): “From the perspective of an everyday person who uses or thinks about AI... these machines are always going to develop some sort of persona... What Anthropic seems to be saying here is, well, let’s work on the persona instead.”
- Both Alan and Molly highlight the experiment-like quality of this approach: is “training values” more effective than writing hard rules?
- Scott (57:11): “Virtue isn’t something you define even in vague terms on the outside. It’s actually something you encounter through practice, applied reason, and conditioning.”
Moral Status and the Nature of Machine Consciousness
- Scott (62:26): On the bold admission in Anthropic’s Constitution: “Claude’s moral status is deeply uncertain.”
- “If we blind ourselves to the moral capacity of these actors, you really run the risk of doing something horrible... I do think there’s something there...”
- Alan (64:52): “If a chicken can have moral concern, why can’t an AI system that is already, and certainly in the future, a lot smarter than you are?... It’s not like... there are a lot of smuggled assumptions that we understand how consciousness in human beings works.”
- Anthropic’s willingness to admit the uncertainty and seriousness of this ethical problem is, for the team, both intellectually honest and essential.
Notable Quotes
- Alan (09:24): “The vibes are bad. I don't have much more sophisticated to say than that... there are a mass number of masked armed paramilitary troops in your city who are just doing a very bad job, who are not here for any obvious policy purpose.”
- Molly (17:56): “When Trump even said... ‘I don’t like seeing anyone killed,’ it was as if he created permission for both those more moderate people and slightly more conservative people to also say that they don’t like what’s going on here.”
- Eric (31:04): “This is not some lefty squish. This is Judge Patrick Schiltz... and he has had it, he's had enough.”
- Alan (46:25): “Turns out Aristotle was right. Or at least that’s my takeaway from this... after thousands of years of ethical debate between philosophers, we’re almost running an experiment in silico.”
- Scott (62:26): “If we blind ourselves to the moral capacity of these actors, you really run the risk of doing something horrible...”
- Alan (64:52): “If a chicken can have moral concern, why can’t an AI system that is already and certainly in the future a lot smarter than you are on some and soon to be almost every intellectual domain...”
Timestamps for Important Segments
- 06:30 — Start of Minneapolis crisis and national reaction
- 09:24 — Alan describes local atmosphere: “The vibes are bad...”
- 16:05 — National political shift, with unusual bipartisan criticism
- 17:56 — Molly explains rhetorical shift following Trump’s statements
- 25:04 — Eric details DOJ’s aggressive legal tactics and judicial pushback
- 39:49 — Minnesota’s state-level legal countermeasures and federalism implications
- 46:07 — Switch to AI topic: Anthropic’s Claude Constitution
- 46:25 — Alan outlines “virtue ethics” as organizational principle for Claude
- 53:18 — Molly on the inevitability & importance of AI “persona”
- 62:26 — Discussion of moral status and the ethics of machine intelligence
Memorable Moments
- On ice storms and unstable snow in D.C.:
- Scott (03:04): “I kind of liken it to being a mouse walking on creme brulee.”
- Panel: Playful pet banter, including a rogue kitten “pawing at Scott’s face.”
- Dark humor about “scalps” and Washington politics:
- Scott (21:41): “The scalps are fine if they’re of protesters. Let’s just clarify.”
- Philosophical riffs—during the AI ethics segment, Alan and Scott trade references to Aristotle, rolling Dungeons & Dragons jokes, and child-rearing metaphors.
Object Lessons (Recommendations)
[70:34–76:47]
- Eric: The “Tingler,” a head-massage device, for migraine relief.
- Alan: Season two of The Night Manager (spy thriller with Tom Hiddleston).
- Scott: “Fire Snake” method for de-icing D.C. Metro rails and the joys of good long underwear in winter.
- Molly: A memeable, Mandarin-embroidered “century of American humiliation” hat as a satirical commentary on global politics and pop culture.
Overall Tone:
The episode balances seriousness regarding legal, political, and ethical crises with the hosts’ signature warmth, wry humor, and intellectual curiosity. Both the Minneapolis segment and the AI ethics discussion are accessible yet thoughtful—anchored with personal anecdotes and a sense of the surreal pace of change in 2026.
For more details and deep dives:
See Lawfare’s show notes and Alan’s referenced Scaling Laws podcast episode on Claude’s Constitution.