B (2:16)

Yeah, it's the latter. I mean, I actually had a great, great job with great people and I was at the same company for the last 23 years of my career and many of those people were there a lot of those years. So we became like family. So it had nothing to do with the job, which I loved and I was making some of my best money of my career at the end there too. But it was all about wanting that freedom to do what I want to do when I want to do it and have my time to use as I like to use it.

A (2:51)

How old were you when you retired?

B (2:53)

I was 60.

B (2:55)

So.

A (2:56)

So I'm hearing you enjoyed your job, you enjoyed the people you were doing it with. You are making good money. You still decided to retire in early relative, but I would say an early retirement. What led to that?

B (3:11)

Well, one thing is in 2021 I had a heart attack and I weighed over 70 pounds more than I weigh now. And so that was a huge wake up call just in my life in general. And after that I changed my diet and I started exercising consistently for the first time in my life, which I still do today. And it's actually one of my things that I enjoy doing in retirement and it gives me plenty of time to do it. But that wake up call probably pushed me to retire a little earlier than I might have if I, if that hadn't happened.

A (3:46)

How soon? And thank you for sharing that, Steve. How, how soon after the heart attack did you realize I got to make a change and that change is probably retirement, so I can prioritize.

B (3:58)

Well, I didn't, it didn't go straight to retirement, it went straight to health and yeah, and it was like overnight and in fact, I'm not a person that gets depressed, but I had a severe depression for one day following my heart attack like I had never had before. And after that it just like I said, total wake up call and started eating healthy and well, of course I had to go through cardiac, cardiac rehab and, and so learned a lot there and, but, but no, I, but way before that though, I had always been wanting to retire early. I had read books financial when I was a kid, like richest man in Babylon from way back when I was a kid. And early on I was reading about Mr. Money Mustache in the early years of the fire community.

B (4:52)

So I'd always had it in the back of my mind. But the heart attack is what pushed it forward. And then I started thinking about, well, yeah, started looking at the Numbers.

B (5:02)

And yeah, I got some financial software and then actually my mom has a financial advisor and, and they were able to do a free consultation to also confirm what the financial software was telling me that I, I could do it. And so, so yeah, it's. I'd always thought I just wanted to get on the early side, but I mean it wasn't easy. I actually, I went through a divorce when I was 45, 47, and I had half my 401k went to my ex wife. Um, so that was a huge blow at that time. But it was, it's actually after that that I really got started getting good with money because I never knew how to budget. It started with budgeting. That was the important first step because I never budgeted well. And then my ex wife and I, we had no extra money to our name. All we had is what was in our retirement accounts.

B (5:58)

And actually some credit card debt, which I despise. Um, but after that I actually found a software called ynab. You need a budget. And that. And that taught me how to budget correctly for the first time in my life. And that, that, that starting step was huge in getting me slowly building up my savings over time and just started thinking about finances the right way and then started learning about investing. And.

B (6:24)

I forgot now where the question started here.

A (6:26)

No, thank you a lot. There, that there, there was a heart attack. There is the, the brief scent of even depression following that there was a divorce there into budget. There was this sense of always wanting to retire early but needing to develop the skills to actually be able to do so. I want to cover each of those, just even briefly. The depression.

B (6:44)

What, what, what.

A (6:45)

When you were feeling that, what was the depression over? Was it the fact that, my goodness, I almost just lost my life, or was it something related to inability to prioritize health? What, what was causing that?

B (6:56)

Yeah, no, it's the first thing you said. Just the scare. I mean, I have two grown sons and I want to be there for them and that's another reason for staying in great health. And I don't have grandkids yet, but they're coming and I want to be there for my grandkids as well. But. But yeah, it was just that. It was mostly that just wanting to be there for my sons and, and live a long, long life. Yeah, and I've always been in technology. I want to see where technology goes as long as I can. Like virtual reality is fascinating to me. And so yeah, you gotta be around.

A (7:30)

Long enough to see grandchildren and also see where does technology take us in this crazy journey we're on? So what was that? So, so you had the heart attack in 2021, you retired in 2023. Correct.

B (7:43)

Right.

A (7:44)

What was that journey like? So you always wanted to retire early. This may be accelerated things or really brought things into perspective. Can you just kind of walk us through how, how did that. Because one thing to realize, oh, I need to prioritize this. It's another thing to actually do it. And in your case, it wasn't just health, but I. So retirement was more of like phase two of that, to be able to fully prioritize not just health, but also freedom, flexibility, all of that. How did, how did, what did that process look like? Was it an immediate, easy, I can now prioritize this and do this, or was it a series of things you worked through to get to where you are?

B (8:20)

Yeah, it was, it was kind of. It wasn't immediate. It was more gradual.

B (8:25)

I mean, yeah, I guess I'd always, I said I always wanted to retire early, but I never really had any action plan and dates in mind until after the heart attack. And it was gradual. And I just started thinking, yeah, it would be great to have my, my time to myself and be able to pursue some other things in life. And, and, and that's when I started thinking about it gradually and the numbers. And I had. I have a friend that retired really young just because he had a rotten situation with his job and his, his mom was going through some, some things and the job didn't make it easy, but, but he handled it and he had. It's probably like five years before, before me. And he was younger than me. He was a college buddy. So anyways, I, I had seen examples of it and yeah, I just, it was just a gradual thing. And then I, yeah, I started looking at the money and, yeah, can I retire? And then I started getting excited about it.

B (9:25)

A couple years before. Yeah. Until I finally said, yeah, this is it. And then, oh, yeah, well, I'll talk about that later. But yeah, and then I came up with a plan on how I was going to tell my work because I, I did like my job a lot and I wanted to give them plenty of time.

A (9:39)

Yeah, I do want to touch upon that one second. But what happened is it sounds like the plan, finally. There was always a desire to retire early, but never maybe wasn't a formalized plan about. I think so many people feel that if I want to retire, I want to do this, I want to travel, but the missing link between where they are and where they want to be is just put simply, a plan. What, what are you going to do to move from where you are to where you want to go? What do you need to do with your 401k? What do you need to do with the budget? What do you need to do with health insurance, Social Security, whatever the case might be? And it sounds like the health scare was really the thing that said time to connect the dots between what I'm saying I want and the practical steps to get there.

B (10:22)

Exactly. Yeah. Because it's easy to just stay in the same path that you're on and just keep doing what you're doing. And that's easy. It's hard to break out of that and make these next steps, which, yeah, even though I talked about it, I had never put it in action and then I started putting it in action.

A (10:42)

Yeah, well, and one of the hopes of the show too is I'm hoping that for people listening, it's not a heart attack. That's the wake up call to say get in order to do this. It's the lessons from Steve, it's the lessons from others of, okay, there was a forcing factor there, but maybe this episode can be that forcing factor. For some people. All that's missing, all that stands between them and what they want to do is get a plan in order. You can do this on your own, you can do this with software, you can do this with a financial advisor. Whatever it is, get that plan. Because to go back to what you said, freedom is the word that you've used to describe the last two and a half years and you enjoyed what you did for work. So how much more so are you enjoying now? And we're going to hear about that in just a second. But how was that preparing to tell your work, knowing this is a job you love, with people you love, making good money? What fears did you have? What, what, what did that feel like as you're preparing to tell them?

B (11:37)

Yeah, I don't know if there were any fears and I didn't get any pushback, which kind of surprised me a little bit. But I think because I had that heart attack, I think that's why I didn't get any pushback. But.

B (11:52)

Yeah, sure, I lost my train of thought here. What were we talking about again?

A (11:58)

Telling your firm you're going to retire, telling your company I'm going to retire. Was that scary? Was it easy?

B (12:04)

Yeah, no, yeah, it wasn't scary. But I wanted to come up with a plan and I wanted to give Them plenty of time because they had been really good to me. So I wanted to be good to my company.

B (12:13)

So I. Because lots of people talk about a month or two months. I said, okay, I'm going to give them six months. So they have plenty of time because. And I knew what they need to replace and they need to work on getting other programmers in to cover my. What my specialty was. And so I want to give him plenty of time. And then it turned out it gave me more time because at one point they're just trying to decide whether we're going to hire a new programmer or get some contractor to work on a particular thing part of our project. And so I say, okay, well, I got to tell them now because I knew the right answer was to get a programmer, not a contractor. And so I told them about nine months before I retired. And so I think they appreciated that. And we used it to good effect and we got an excellent programmer, which helped make my transition much easier. And I had plenty of time to impart my wisdom.

B (13:14)

To the next generation.

A (13:17)

Yeah. Is there anything, Steve, you miss about work, even given the fact that you're in love and retirement, Anything you miss about work?

B (13:24)

Yeah, just the people hanging out with my friends from work and. Well, another thing is.

B (13:34)

I was in San Diego and I stayed there for a year after I retired, but then I since have moved to Arizona in 2024, which is where I'm originally from, my home state. It's where my mom is and other friends and family. But yeah, can you imagine? I left San Diego for Arizona for that heat up in perfect weather. But. But it's been a great move for me. And also finances factored in there, too, because I knew my money went a lot further here in Arizona than they did in California just because of taxes and property taxes and cost of living and lots of. Lots of other reasons.

A (14:18)

Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. I want to shift gears a little bit. A lot of people, you and I were talking before we hit record of a lot of people, they. For retirement. And their planning is purely financial. They run the numbers, they get the software, they do the budgeting, and they think that the numbers alone are going to get them to this point of feeling confident that they can do it. And they realize there's still a gap because it's not just, are you financially prepared? There's also the. Are you mentally prepared? Are you psychologically prepared? Do you know what you want to do? And I think just hearing stories of what's on the other side, the good and the Bad is so helpful to a lot of people. Will you share just the highlights, the lowlights, everything in between of how the first two and a half years have gone for you?

B (15:01)

Sure. Well, first of all, yeah, I, I wasn't caught by surprise because I've been. I thought about it a lot, especially since after the heart attack, about how I wanted to live my life and, and how retirement might look. I thought about it a lot. So I knew and it, and it worked out exactly as I had hoped and better than I had hoped, actually, because I wanted to get back into music, which I had. I'd always, always played music. And so I was able to get into a couple of jazz bands since retirement and I'm playing more.

B (15:39)

As much or more than I was even planning on. So that's been great. I've been getting jazz lessons, improv lessons. I, I took an acting class, which is just something out of the blue. I, I just had interested in the process of acting, but I had, I didn't know anything about it. So I said, you know what? I'm going to do something to get out of my comfort zone. That's something I couldn't do during my working years. So that was just something I, I didn't even think about until after I was retired. And I did that. That was fun. I met some really neat people and had a blast doing.

A (16:08)

Was that scary to do? Did, did, did it take you a while to psych yourself up to say, I'm going to do this new scary thing? Or was it pretty simple decision and then you did it?

B (16:17)

Yeah, I kind of just said, you know what, I started thinking about it. I said, hey, that'd be fun. And I started looking around, Googling about what was available in Arizona, and I found something and it turned out to be the perfect foundational acting class and met great people. And yeah, I was a little out of my comfort zone in the class, but I.

B (16:38)

Always had to perform music on stage. So I'm a little bit comfortable with getting out there, but it's still a different muscle and yeah, just let loose and do all these wild things in front of other people. So it took a little bit, but yeah, definitely out of my comfort zone. But it wasn't too bad.

A (16:56)

Yeah. How many of these things that you're doing now, music, obviously you just mentioned acting, other hobbies. How many of these are things that you could have done in your working years versus how much of this is only possible being fully retired?

B (17:09)

Well, the music I always kept up on my instrument. I play the trombone. And I kept up on it while I was. While I was working, but not playing a lot of bands. I played on occasional bands over the years, but nothing regularly. But I kept up and practiced sometime. I mean, I'm sure I had some time where I went years without playing much, but I kept on a little bit, but.

B (17:38)

But yeah, so that was something. And I was too tired to. I couldn't practice during the day and by the time I wanted to practice, it would be later at night and I didn't want to bug my neighbors. So it wasn't a great time to practice. So now I can practice all during the day, all day long, if I want.

B (17:57)

So that's something. And then. Yeah. And just playing in these bands, I wouldn't have had the time or energy. I was always like, when I was working after my job, I would just be on the couch watching tv and I had no energy to do things that now I have tons of energy. And working out too. I can work out. I had to work out early morning or it was too hard in the evening, so I had to do early mornings while I was working. Luckily I was working from home for a while because of COVID and all that, and see if I'll actually get some sets in while I'm working. So that was. That was kind of cool, but. But I definitely didn't have the time to dedicate to it that I have now.

A (18:40)

Yeah. One of the things you said a couple minutes ago, Steve, was you thought a lot about what you wanted retirement to look like. And I think that's a very healthy exercise to have an idea of what you are retiring to, what you want life to look like. Not that you can perfectly predict it, but have some sense of what am I getting myself into, what do I want to do? So you do it by purpose and don't just drift into something that becomes very reactionary. How do you think? Is that simply something that's literally just a thought? Do you journal? Do you talk to people? Do you read? Think? What does thinking about what you want life to look like look like for you?

B (19:18)

Yeah, well, I guess it's just a lot of thought and based on things that I had read and watched about early retirement and how other people had done it. But yeah, it was. And yeah, it's really important. I mean, I've talked to people now that like some of my co workers from the past and some of them, yeah, they don't. They haven't thought about it at all. And they just think, yeah, this is what I'm doing and I'm going to do it till retirement age.

B (19:46)

And they don't really have. And they maybe you don't have a lot of hobbies and so maybe working is still good for them to keep doing, to keep working.

B (19:56)

But, but if somebody has a lot of hobbies and a lot of things that they'd like to do that they can't do while they're working.

B (20:04)

That'S. Those are the people that, yeah, I can really think about. Oh yeah. Traveling. I did, I did a lot of travel. I've done a lot of traveling since I retired. That's something that I couldn't. I mean I could do like a, like one or two trips a year or on the shorter side. But now I can do long trips and I can do open ended trips. They don't have to have a certain date where I'm done which is, gives me more freedom on vacation. I could stay another week in Italy if I wanted to. So yeah, it's. That's been fantastic too.

A (20:38)

So have you gone somewhere where you said I'm loving this so much, I'm going to stay around for another five days, seven days.

B (20:44)

I don't know if I've done done that yet. But, but when I, when I did take a European trip in 2023 after my retirement.

B (20:56)

I. Oh yeah. So the first I had, I went to Edinburgh, Scotland. I went to France.

B (21:05)

And then, and then Italy and the first two legs I had kind of all planned out and, and I, I was meeting my son for a lot of that. And then the last leg in Italy, I didn't plan it at all. I didn't have hotels or anything and I just figured it out as I went. So that was different. Or where I was going to go in Italy and it was getting towards the end of my trip so I was getting a little tired so I didn't want to. I'm glad I didn't have a bunch of different locations. So I ended up just going to Rome and Florence and I'm glad I didn't have all kinds of other things planned. So yeah, so that was a time where I was able to just go with the flow and, and do what was fun and where I was enjoying things.

A (21:47)

Yeah, very cool. Going back to. You had thought a lot about what you wanted life to look like in retirement. You'd also planned financially for what retirement might look like. How close is what you're actually spending today as you talk about budgeting and talk about what is it going to cost, how Close. Is what you're actually spending to what you thought retirement would cost.

B (22:11)

Yeah, it's been, I haven't slowed down on my spending. I'll be honest with you. It's, I mean, I've, it's, I, I, and I didn't really. Yeah. And I probably needed to put more thought into what my retirement spending would be. All. But, but so far. Well, and, and I am, it's kind of, I'm kind of doing it in an intuitive manner too, because we have all these rules, a 4% rule or, or announced the 4.4.7 rule or, or whatever and all, and these guardrails approaches, all these different things. And I'm just going to do it intuitively. The, the market's been up, so, so I'm, I'm spending kind of freely. I've, I've, I've, I've been enjoying my money and I know now is the time to enjoy it and spend it. If, if the market has a downturn, I would, I'll probably slow, slow down. But I, I mean, I do know what my core expenses are.

B (23:03)

So if I had to, I know I'll last a long time.

B (23:09)

And I've thought a lot about when I'm going to start Social Security, and I think I'm going to wait till 70, so that'll extend because I hope to live a long time now because I'm keeping my health up. And so my goal is to maximize Social Security and I think that alone would cover my core expenses starting at 70 going forward. And, and we know things slow down eventually, but I, I hope not. I hope to extend that further and further as, I mean, as medical advances keep going, I mean, people are living longer and they're living healthier longer, and I hope they keep, keep up with that trend.

A (23:48)

And health is obviously a big priority for you right now. What did you do? So you lost 70 pounds after the heart attack. You're really prioritizing your health. For a lot of people, health has been so deprioritized, they don't even know what to do to get back into the routine. Is it daily walks? Is it going to the gym? Is it swimming? Is it pickleball? What does your health routine look like? What's, what's been so effective, allowing you to lose 70 pounds and seemingly really enjoying what you're doing for your health?

B (24:16)

Yeah, well, I mean, it, it took many, many years to put on those extra pounds, so you can't expect to get rid of it all at once. So it's been A gradual process over the, those four years. Well, I mean I started before I retired. I started on that journey. But so it's been about four years of, of and then a lot of it's trial and error and, and watching and YouTube is great for lots of different fitness sources.

B (24:45)

So I've tried lots of different things. It sort of started off gradually just with the caloric deficit and then changing my diet because I, I, I like to joke that I used to be on a cheeseburger diet because I ate a lot of way, way too many cheeseburgers. So and I learned in my, my cardio rehab I got to start eating fish and chicken and because I'm still a carnivore and so I'm still going to eat meat but I cut out a lot of the red meat although I have put some of the red meat back in. But I'm still within moderation and as I'm in much better health now, I'm feeling good watching that. But yeah, I started gradual yeah just clerk deficit and then I said oh you know what, I gotta start weight training. So I started doing weight training and not, not even going to a gym but I, I had my own adjustable dumbbells and a, and a weight bench and a pull up bar and a dip bar. And so I was doing that at home. So along with the caloric deficit and oh and I was doing cardio. I, I bought a, an elliptical machine. So I was doing that. The cardio was probably the thing I enjoyed the least. I just, just do. Sitting on a stationary.

B (26:02)

Exercise.

B (26:05)

Machine was kind of boring. Even with iFit and following a trainer around the world or whatever and it changing elevations. It was pretty cool technology. But.

B (26:15)

So, but yeah so I, so I kept evolving my, my health journey too. So a few years ago I found this. I switched from, from weights. I used to get joint issues on like bicep curls in my elbows and, and different things. And so I switched to these heavy bands with a, it's a foot plate and, and bands and, and a ball and like Olympic type bar, solid bar and you can do all these different exercises and it's not like the light bands that we had like in cardio rehab, but these are heavy duty. There's a whole range of them so you can go up in weight and even combine them. But anyway, so I switched from traditional weights to these heavy duty bands and now all my joint pains went away and I'm still haven't lost any strength and continue to lose weight and gain strength or at least Maintain my strength while I'm losing weight. And then cardio. I figured out a secret to cardio for me, which was virtual reality, of all things, because I found I had a headset, this Meta Quest 3 headset, and I started saying, yeah, I bet I could find some exercises on that because you're moving around. And I found this software called Supernatural where you're in these 3D environments all over the world and you're hitting targets to music. They have different modes. There's one called Flow, when you're hitting all these targets and you're moving around and squatting and back up. And then there's also a boxing mode, so you're ducking and weaving and boxing. And so that turned out to be fun cardio. And so I've been doing that since April of this year and very consistently. And I, I sold my elliptical because I, I found a new way to do cardio because I had tried walking all. And just getting my steps in, but that it really wasn't for me. And it was, it was very time consuming and I'd rather do a little more higher intensity cardio for shorter period and, and have fun with it. So.

A (28:26)

And it's fun.

B (28:27)

So it's all evolved. I switched, I switched the bands. Yeah, yeah. To the fun cardio. And so I found what works for me. So I love it. So now, yeah. And I've been. It's been like four years of strength training consistently. And, and I had always done it as a kid and as got older, but only for. It only last like two, three, three months if I was lucky at a time. And now it's been, it's been just consistent.

A (28:53)

Yeah. Well, I think the principle here that I'm hearing is, is identify the things that are important. In this case, it's health, but it could be relationships, it could be hobby, like it could be anything. And then experiment. What you started with isn't what you're still doing now. You bought the elliptical, but now you're doing something different. You started with strength training, but now you're doing something different. I think that that's. If I had to guess, Steve, probably why retirement's been so amazing is you're not afraid to try things that align with what you value and then iterate and find that thing and not expect it to be perfect the first time around. Whether it's acting classes, health stuff, what you're doing for travel, the right thing's gonna be found if you just keep sticking with it. A few more questions before we wrap here. Steve, at the very beginning, I could just tell that retirement, this first two and a half years of retirement have been incredible. Is there one particular moment that stands out where you said that was a moment that just kind of summarizes how this has been, the freedom I've experienced, the enjoyment of it all. Does any moment come to mind?

B (29:54)

Well, yeah, there's a few moments. One is not so positive. I moved back to Arizona in 2024 and my mom was diagnosed with colon cancer at the end of 2024.

B (30:05)

But the fact that I'm here and able to help her out and see her often has been a great boon for in my retirement, that the timing worked out so well that I'm able to be here for her. So that's not so great thing, but great that I'm there for her and I know she really appreciates it. But then, yeah, just the freedom. And I've been able to travel and see both my. Both of my sons are on opposite coasts. One's. One's in Brooklyn, New York, and one's in Santa Cruz, California.

B (30:38)

So I need to travel to see them. And they're working so they can't travel as much, but so I'm able to go out to New York and have a fantastic time out there. And this summer I went to Santa Cruz and hung out with my son there, and we had a great time. And so, yeah, and then traveling to Europe was a great moment. And.

B (30:59)

Yeah, just the freedom to go. At any time, I can leave my home and go somewhere, go do something. I have plans to go see my. I have a brother in Oregon. I can go see him soon. There's so many choices of things to do. So, yeah, yeah, those. Yeah, it's been a lot of great moments.

A (31:20)

Freedom to do what you want, when you want, with who you want summed up and all of that. You have.

B (31:29)

You.

A (31:29)

You clearly did a lot of your own research, learning, watching videos, listening to podcasts, reading, getting feedback from others. Are there any kind of core pieces of advice that were transformational to your ability to retire when you're able to retire or transformational your ability to enjoy retirement and the way that you have enjoyed it that you would want to share with the listeners?

B (31:52)

Yeah, well, I mean. I mean, it starts with the money base. I mean, which for me was. For me was budgeting. That was my big eye opener. So once I learned how to budget and budget well, that led. That was like the root, no pun intended, of the tree that. That started my financial journey on the right track. And Then, yeah, and then. And Matt, it wasn't until I, I used to always just do my, my match in my 401k but when I hit 50 I started max maxing out my, my 401k and as well as the catch up contributions and, and I think soon after that we had HSA available to us so I maxed out my HSA so I was maxing out all my retirement vehicles and that's been. Well, I guess that, yeah, that's. The HSA has been a huge boon for A lot of people aren't retiring because of medical.

B (32:48)

They like that they're getting insurance from the jobs but to me it hasn't been a big deal at all. I'm still. Luckily I was lucky to have three years of COBRA and I'm just going to finish that up going into next year.

B (33:00)

And so I'm only going to have to be on the aca for about 20 months or private insurance or whatever. I still have to look into that. I started, I started looking at ACA and I'm not going to do that. I'm going to go to my maximum COBRA because it's cheaper and, and I've been doing Roth conversions in retirement and so that's making my salary, salary high. I'm going up to a certain tax bracket and stopping there and so I'm not going to get any subsidies anyway so, so that I don't have to worry about that.

B (33:32)

But so yeah, and I, and yeah, lots of reading early on.

B (33:39)

Some great books I read and podcasts and there's this guy named Rob Berger that I was really instrumental. I found him early when he started doing his podcast, financial podcast. He's a guy who retired early from being a lawyer.

B (33:54)

And he's, and he's pretty big now on YouTube and he came out with a book and but he, he had some great ideas and then yeah, as far as. So I, I'm a do it yourselfer. I like doing my own finances but I, because I love, I love it and I stay on top of it and it's fun for me but anybody who doesn't enjoy that part of it, yeah I think they should get a financial advisor. In fact I was, I was doing my mom's for a little while and actually I'm still doing a little bit of it but she ended up getting a financial advisor which actually made it easier for me because I don't have to. I can concentrate on my thing and not worry so much about hers and know it's hers that she's in good hands.

B (34:38)

And yeah, but I, but I vetted those people and they're good. And just like I've vetted you guys and I think you guys are excellent. And that's why I'm on today because I found you guys early on in your podcast on your YouTube journey and been really impressed with you guys and, and your knowledge is all spot on from everything that I've, I've learned and, and known.

A (35:01)

Yeah. Well, thank you for that, Steve. Appreciate it. As we wrap, I want you to think of that person that's watching this and was maybe in similar shoes as you where they, they're financially prepared, they know they want to retire, but there's maybe some fears about what's on the other side. Am I going to regret it? What am I going to do? If you could speak to that person, knowing what you know about your experience at least, what would you tell them? Not about the financial side of things, but what's waiting for them on the other side.

B (35:31)

Well, well, I do have to mention one finance. What you made me think of just now financially is because I was, I wasn't sure how it was going to look and, and spending your money with no income coming in is a lot different than when you have a job and money's coming in. So I was worried about that. But I would tell people, yeah, well, I mean there is a fear of sequence of returns, risk but for me it's been fantastic and my net worth has continued to grow. So that's been a nice surprise while I'm spending pretty freely.

B (36:07)

And sure I'll adjust if things go south or when they invariably do because we know that's going to know that will happen eventually. But yeah, you got to prepare for the ups and downs. But yeah, no, as far as freedom, yeah, just think about what, what you want to do. Try to envision what you want your life to look like in retirement and then just go for that. And, and, and it's been, for me, it's been as good or better than I even imagined.

B (36:37)

And yeah, oh yeah, and I did mention that the HSA for healthcare. Now I have no fears of how I'm going to pay my.

B (36:46)

My COBRA or my ACA and to get me to the Medicare age.

B (36:52)

So yeah, don't let, don't let.

B (36:56)

That stop you from retiring because I do see a lot of people say I'm not going to retire until I get to Medicare age. Yeah.

A (37:06)

Well, thank you, Steve, for that. And just one more time, my guidance to the audience listening from what I've learned from you is don't be afraid to try new things and don't be afraid to understand what do you value and then how do you do things that align with that? It's gonna have benefits that maybe you couldn't even have anticipated. The freedom to be with your mother as she was diagnosed with her diagnosis, the freedom to be with your sons as they're on different sides of the country, the freedom to pursue the things that are most important to you. Some of those things you couldn't have known prior to retiring. But being in a position where you had the freedom and the willingness to keep trying new things, amazing to see how fun it's been for you and how much you've enjoyed it. So thank you, Steve, for coming on and thank you for sharing your experiences here on this episode of Retirement Reality.

B (37:51)

Thank you. It's been great talking to you.

A (37:56)

Sa.