B (2:45)

How long have I been retired for?

A (2:47)

Yes.

B (2:48)

About seven weeks. So like I said. Yeah, like I said, I decided to stop laboring on Labor Day weekend.

A (2:53)

That's right.

B (2:54)

Had a big barbecue and sort of retirement party with a bunch of friends. Yeah, you know, I'm also somewhat lucky. I have a couple friends who are also retired that are about my same age. I'm 57, one of them six, the other one's 59. So I immediately have a friend group to go do things with, you know, when I want to, so.

A (3:16)

So you retired fairly young. What? It doesn't sound like you loved work. It sounds like it was something that you were excited to get away from. What prompted the decision to retire at 57, Frank?

B (3:26)

I always prepared to retire early. You know, when I first started working in the early 90s, there was a couple books that really had an effect on me. You know, one of them was the Covey book, you know, seven Habits, so begin with the end of mind. It was one of the Habits. And the other one was Millionaire Next Door. And, you know, both those, you know, me and Next door talked about spend less than you make, so always save. And in conjunction with that, my first employer, we, they, you know, they talked, they talked to us about a 401k and investments and growing those investments, compound interest and, and all that stuff. And so they had, I think it was Vanguard, actually had the guy from Vanguard come in and do an actual in person presentation. This is before Zoom calls and this thing. So that really left a lasting impression on me. So early on I was investing quite a bit more for 1k. But also I started doing drips, dividend reinvestment plans, which later became a brokerage account. So those things sort of set me off early in my career to where I ended up doing pretty well. Now, to answer the other part of your question, you know, what was the motivation to retire when I did, besides being prepared financially? It was, you know, my wife went through cancer last year, so she's in remission now. So that's, you know, thank the Lord for that. But she had chemo for about six months, seven months. And so sitting in that chemo room, which is, you know, it's like a big room with, you know, 10, 20 chairs where people are getting IV drips, you know, all kinds of different cancers, all kinds, you know, all kinds of severity levels, some of them terminal all ages of people. So you see teenagers, you know, 30 year olds, 40 year olds, you know, old people. And it really gives you a perspective on how short life can be. You really get to see that while you have your health, you should take advantage of that. Your health really is wealth.

A (5:44)

And.

B (5:46)

You know, while you have the youth of your senior years, you really need to take advantage of that before you're not able to do things. Maybe you get that cancer diagnosis, maybe you get, you know, you break a hip or, you know, something like that, where you don't have your mobility anymore. So to me, that was. That resonated with me quite a bit. So, you know, those are some of the things that sort of went into my decision to go ahead and retire.

A (6:13)

I'm glad you say that, Michael. And thank God your wife is better now and she's in remission. But there is this sense of not just, oh, we'll live the traditional 80, 90 years, but there's this sense that all those years are created equal. And one of the things I try to preach so much in these videos is not all those years are Created equal. You're 57 today. The things you can do today are gonna be very different than the things you can do at 77 or 87. So even if you knew you had 30 years of life left, the next five are going to be the best by far on average than are the latter 25 and sliding scale. And by the way, the earlier you do retire, and the earlier you can start prioritizing your health, the more of those good years you're going to have because you can extend some of that health span. I'm curious, are you doing anything different now, just even with life? Your wife went through that very scary time. She's better now, she's in remission now. Are there things you've done because of that, outside of retiring? Of course, because of that fresh perspective?

B (7:14)

Yeah, I mean, I've really started focusing on my health. You know, I used to do like, you know, this tough mudders and savage races and all that. But the last couple years I sort of got out of shape because of what my wife is going through. And the year before that, my mother and my aunt went through some severe health crisis. They both passed away. So taking care of my mother the year before. And then this past year, like I said, my wife really got out of shape, so. So I've been trying, I mean, working on getting in shape. A buddy of mine, you know, he and I have been doing some of the sections of the Appalachian Trail, which, you know, that's a lot of elevation. That's. That'll definitely get you in shape, but also just, you know, trying to get 10,000 steps a day. Just do, you know, anything I can to improve my health?

A (8:02)

When you were still working, so you've been retired for about two months now, were you able to prioritize health like you are now when you were still working?

B (8:11)

Not, you know, I was. I still would go to the gym and work out and that kind of thing. But now it really has become a focus because, you know, like I said before, you see, you know, if you're not healthy, you're not able to do things. My wife and I actually, we live in Atlanta, Georgia. So we went to. Once she was finished with chemo, as a celebration, we did a trip that she always wanted to do. We went to Napa. So we did Napa in San Francisco and all that. And which she loved. And unfortunately, she was not able to, you know, we did the Jaw Mirror woods, hiking the woods there, that park and all that. And unfortunately, she was not healthy enough to be able to do that as yet. So she was just finishing up chemo. But so again, our goal is to both of us be healthy enough to where we can make these trips and see things that we've always read about or heard about, but now we have an opportunity to actually go and do those things.

A (9:08)

Yeah. Yeah. I love that you're doing that. I want to go back to your retirement for a second. So you retired at 57. A big part. Maybe the full part of the impetus for that was wife got a cancer diagnosis. Better now, but that puts things into perspective. When did you feel like you were in a financial position to be able to retire?

B (9:28)

Actually, it's probably the year before that. Like, I'd always. Again, like I mentioned earlier, I always had set goals early on, and I hit that financial go the year before that. But it's ironically, my employer actually, you know, they offered an HRA plan and they were phasing that out in January of 2026. So that was just said I would have the money that was built up in the HRA plan, which it wasn't a huge amount, but it was, you know, it was. It was not a small amount either. And that was. That was just going to go away. That money would disappear. So that was just added incentive to go ahead and pull the trigger, which I did.

A (10:11)

Yeah. As you were preparing to make that decision to pull that trigger, what was going through your mind? I know that you were Looking forward to retirement, it sounds like. But what fears, what concerns, what anxiety? What was keeping you up at night as you were getting ready to make a decision?

B (10:26)

Part of it. You know, obviously I led a team of people and, you know, I had a little bit guilt actually leaving that team because some of them had. I managed for, you know, over a decade and, and I took, you know, for a while there, I took a lot of satisfaction in training and developing my people, seeing them, you know, you know, go up in their careers, go up the ladder. And so I, I felt a little guilt, you know, of leaving those people. But on the other hand, I think most people. I've seen some of these other interviews, and I tend to agree that your company is not going to miss you, you know, maybe for a few days until they find somebody else to fill that spot. But it's. Your company is. You'll be forgotten a lot sooner than you think. You'll be forgotten. You're not. You're not as indispensable as. As you may think. And yeah, so, so, yeah, that. And again, I hit my financial goal and I was just ready to start living life, man. I mean, it's, you know, technically, it's the worst financial decision I could have ever made, you know, because, you know, I could have had another 10 years of income, you know, assuming, you know, you make a certain amount that's going to be a million dollars or more. Right. But I just, I was just ready. And I haven't regretted it a bit.

A (11:57)

I, I like what you just said because one of the things that it. There is that challenge of if you're running a financial projection, there is zero times out of 100 that you're ever going to run a financial projection. And retiring early comes out as a better financial decision. That's always less income. That's always fewer contributions to your 401k. That's always less money paid into Social Security. That's always more years of you needing to fund your own healthcare expenses. Although in your case, you had the HRA that I know would help with some of that. But I think that what you. The conclusion you arrived at is, yes, money matters, but there's these different almost scorecards that we need to look at is one is, how am I doing with my financial health? But also, you're already talking about my physical health, my relational health, my ability to spend time with my wife, with my daughter, with the people that matter. And the financial thing's so tangible, it's so in your face, it's so Easy to track that and to run projections that quantify that. The others are so much more difficult to quantify until they're gone. And you had that very scary experience of being on the verge of what happens if something happens to my wife, then you feel the pain. But if you're not actively thinking that way of. These years are limited. These years are precious. It's very easy to get caught up in the one single tangible scorecard element, which is the financial side of things, and miss out on the rest.

B (13:19)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, and again, it's up to everybody's comfort level. I mean, you know, it's really not how much you have. It's how much you have to spend. Right. I mean, if you, if you have expenses that are still basically keeping you having to work, then that's understandable. But if. If you're financially able to do it, just do it, man. Because I'm. I. Again, it's been great. Again, I'm pretty new into it, but I just, I've really enjoyed it so far.

A (13:49)

Well, you. So you retired at 57, you said about a year prior to that. Is that when you actually felt like, yeah, I'm financially able to do it. Was it. Was it wife's health that delayed that a year? Was it the fear of telling your team or letting your team down, at least in your own mind, that you're going to not be there anymore? What, what, what happened over the course that year that finally prodded you to move forward?

B (14:09)

I think you just, you touched on both of them. It was my wife's health. So. Health. Health insurance. And then I was like, I just, you know, again, I wasn't really burned out on work as yet. I was getting there, but I was not yet. So. But the health insurance for my wife. But obviously you don't want to go through a change during the middle of cancer treatments and chemo and all that. You don't want to risk any kind of issues with health insurance. Yeah. You know, America, health insurance is. It's a difficult thing to talk about because it's not as. It has a lot of challenges. I'll put it that way.

A (14:53)

You tell those challenges firsthand. What are you. So you're seven weeks in, eight weeks in. I know that granted, there's maybe still the honeymoon phase of retirement, but what are the things that you are looking forward to doing now that you were not able to do while you're still working?

B (15:09)

It's just, it's. It's a wide open book, man. It's a Wide open menu. I have a friend of mine, she's in the scuba diving, so she's been trying to talk me into a scuba div. I used to scuba dive back in college and so she's asking me to get recertified and go to scuba diving trips with her. I have some friends that are big into pickleball, so they're trying to recruit me to do pickleball. I think I mentioned I have a buddy who's, he's wanting to do the Appalachian Trail. I'm not going to do the through hikes. I'm not going to, you know, I think I've gotten a little too soft being a tent and no restrooms and that kind of thing. But I'm fine with the section hikes and we've already done a couple sections of the Appalachian Trail here in Georgia. But it's just, it is, it's a wide open book. And that's the great thing about retirement. You can do what you want when you want to do it, you know, and everything slows down. I mean, I'm not in a hurry anymore, you know, Used to know with, you know, your job and, and your responsibilities at home and everything, you know, every, you know, it seems like you're always in a hurry to get things done so you can get back home or get back to work or, you know, if I want to, I can take a leisurely hour and a half, two hour lunch somewhere if I want to. I don't have to. You know, when I'm at the gym, I'm not trying to hurry and get through a workout anymore. It's just, it's no deadlines, you know, it's. It's just everything's more relaxed. There's no, there's no more pressure.

A (16:34)

That's actually what I think. Maybe one of the things that surprises people most is they don't fully appreciate how much of in a hurry they always were until they're retired and they're not in a hurry. Was there a moment where it hit you, Michael, that oh, I can, I can take my time here. Although, you know, you have that feeling of I got to get somewhere, I got to get somewhere, I got to get. And you say, no, I don't, I, I don't have to do that?

B (17:01)

Well, I mean, the first thing was not having to get up at 6am anymore. So when I did go into an office, I had to get up at 6am Because I had a 45 minute commute, you know. Now, you know, during, after Covid, I Was able to work from home. My job moved where I was just working from home. So then I was getting up at 6:30, 6:45. But now, you know, I sleep in until like 8, 8:30 if I want to. So it's right there is, you know, I can get him more sleep. There's again less stress. And then, you know, I guess I get up, you know, say I get up at 8:30, I'll fix a cup of coffee, you know, read the news, maybe watch you on YouTube, who knows. But you know, sometimes, you know, after I finish my coffee, a lot of times I'll go on, you know, try to get my 10000 steps in this. I love to go on a long walk and listen to YouTube videos or other podcasts or, and you know, or I've actually started reading books again. You know, for a long time there I let myself be distracted with work or social media or whatever. And you know, I fell out of the practice of reading books. And, and I've already read two or three, you know, classics that I always wanted to read and I plan on continuing that. So it's again, it's just the possibilities are wide open.

A (18:21)

Yeah, I know you've already compared kind of health now versus health in your working years. If you're able to prioritize that again, you're able to do some of these hikes, you're able to spend more time at the gym. What about just mental health or stress levels or overall feelings of calm and peace and happy? How does that compare today versus three months ago when you were still leading up to retirement?

B (18:44)

Yeah, it's, it's again, it's, it's a load off your shoulders that you don't have those work responsibilities anymore. And it's actually helped that like I mentioned earlier, I had a couple friends who are also already retired. And so we meet up every now and then and just, you know, discuss because we're all sort of going through the same thing. They retired before I did. They're like I said, one of them's 60 other was 59. And so they, you know, they've talked about some of the things that you and Ari's YouTube program touches on is, you know, the boredom, you know, maybe feeling like, you know, you're not needed anymore, that kind of thing. I haven't felt any of that. But, but you know, I think those are maybe common things that retirees maybe experience at some point or another, especially if they had a high stress job, high pressure job, or where they manage people, perhaps and all of a sudden maybe they feel like, you know, they've turned into a nobody or something like that. I don't know. I'm not a psychologist by any means, but I haven't had any of that. I've had, you know, just again, like I said, the feel of liberation, the feel of freedom. And you know, if I want responsibilities, I can take on responsibilities, but at this point I'm just, I'm just enjoying it.

A (20:01)

Do you think you would have retired when you did had your wife not gone through her cancer diagnosis and treatment?

B (20:07)

Yeah, I don't know. I think the HRA thing was also a helpful determining factor, but I maybe wouldn't have had the perspective that I had after seeing what she went through and also seeing what those other people went through in the chemo room because it really, it's emotional, seeing especially young people who maybe are terminal, but they're just holding onto that hope to take the chemo and hopefully maybe it'll work or prolong their life a little bit. It's, you know, it's just heartbreaking. And, and then you, like I mentioned earlier, you really do see how important your health is and take advantage of, of that health while you can because you never know when something's going to happen. You know, I didn't mean for this episode to be a cancer episode, but I also have a neighbor two doors down who, who has cancer and he, he just ended his chemo because it's not effective and it's just, again, it's heartbreaking and I want to keep on repeating myself. But while you have your health, do the things that you want to do and, and you know, obviously a job can, can limit your opportunities to do those things sometimes. So if you're financially able to do it.

A (21:25)

I hope that's the message people receive of this. This is not retirement advice. There retirement's kind of in some weird philosophical way, this made up construct, this is just life. This is life advice of how do you do the things you should be doing to prioritize the things that matter, which is your health, which is your relationships, which is your faith, which is your hobbies. How do, regardless of if you're 20 years old or 70 years old or anywhere in between, how do you do things that matter? Today there just happens to be this conception that, oh, there's pre retirement years and post retirement years and at the cusp of that is when you need to start thinking about this. But the reality is there should always be a thought regardless of where you are and if your work is meaningful and fun and you love it, and you love the people there and there's purpose, work as long as you can, as long as it's not hindering your ability to do other things. But the second that the things that matter start to be jeopardized by what you're doing nine to five, five days a week, what you're saying is so true of you've got to step away once you're financially ready because you're not going to get a spouse back if something happens. You're not going to get your own health back if something happens. You're not going to get anything back once it's passed. I know your retirement so far has been nothing but good things. It sounds like it's been liberation, to use your word. Have you. Do you know people who have struggled in their retirement with boredom, with loneliness, with lack of structure, with lack of purpose, or does everyone you speak with have positive things to say?

B (23:00)

No. One of my friends, I think he has struggled with it a little bit. He was an attorney and I think he was, you know, I think he really thrived on trials and to build up the trials and all that. So I think, you know, he's been looking into maybe doing something else like as a part time gig, maybe even teaching, that kind of thing. But, you know, who knows? I may try to do something like that someday, but. Because again, you know, I think some people probably do look for something else to do if they hit some point where they're, they're bored or they just, they want challenges, you know, besides, you know, you know, you know, living at home and you know, what could be said, or boring. I guess so. So, yeah, I think he struggled a little bit. I don't think he'd mind me telling that, that part of it, but I have not hit that point yet. But again, I'm very early in the retirement, so.

A (23:58)

Well, what have you. So. So there's two major factors I would say so far have contributed to you enjoying it. One is, of course, the perspective that you only really get when you or a loved one goes through a major health event. The second is you were financially ready. You've been preparing for this moment, you have saved, you have invested. And so those are two pretty pivotal things. But is there anything else, Michael, that led you to this moment where you feel like this does feel like liberation, this does feel wonderful because of the things I did on the other side?

B (24:29)

No, I don't think so. Again, financially, I did everything I needed to do to get to where I'm at. And then just seeing the health challenges that my mother and my aunt and my wife went through, those were sort of the kick I needed, the perspective I needed to go ahead and pull the trigger when I did. But it's just. It's just great. Yeah, I don't want to, you know, to people who are not at that point yet. I don't mean to rub it in or anything, but, I mean, it really is just. It's just a stress, you know, off your shoulders, and now you can just live life and do what you want to do.

A (25:14)

So have there been any surprise? It, you know, not. Maybe not challenges, maybe good things, but have there been surprises about how great it's been or about how free you feel? I know it's. I wouldn't even say it's a traditional retirement, yet your daughter got married, your daughter's friend who's like a daughter got. So it's been a bit busy even despite that. But any major surprises that. And the reason I ask is this is a show where so often people think that retirement's all about getting the spreadsheet right, getting the numbers right, getting the withdrawal strategy right, and they. They reach the limit of how far that can take them, and they still don't feel comfortable, they still don't feel ready. And it's because of that, what the heck is on the other side? And maybe I don't have any Michaels in my life to share with me. Here's what's going well, here's what's hard, here's what the adjustments like, and they're just craving that. What do you do? What's it like? What was surprising? Anything that you would share to that person who's getting ready but just not quite there and taking the leap.

B (26:10)

Yeah. I mean, again, it's just your comfort level with, you know, what kind of. Where you're at financially, what kind of expenses you have. You know, the big. Obviously the. The wild card is health care. You know, expenses, health insurance. You know, right now there's, you know, obviously the big dispute about the Affordable Care act and subsidies and all that. So, you know, supposedly if the subsidies are not approved, then your health insurance costs could double. Right. Which is, you know, if you're. If you're not financially prepared for that, that could be a big hit and affect your retirement. So it says, you know, decide what you can afford to spend each month, stay within that budget. So that gives you peace of mind, that gives you comfort. As long as you're staying within your budget per month. And you should be, you should be good. At least that's, that's how I'm doing it right now. You know, I have a certain amount I spend each month and I stay under that and I feel secure.

A (27:14)

How has your actual spending, Granted it's only been two months, but how has your actual spending compared to what you thought it would be as you prepared for retirement?

B (27:23)

Yeah, actually it's been an expensive year, frankly, because again, my daughter got married, so I spent a lot of money there. And also I had a sudden expense come back where I had to pay for a new roof. So that was unexpected. So in the same year that you retire, you have those huge expenses come up. So that was. But you know, it is what it is and you know, when you project out in the long run, I feel pretty, pretty good about where I'm at. I do have a financial planner who, you know, I help discuss, you know, I discuss these things with. And he gives me peace of mind as well. You know, I think as y' all mentioned on your, on your videos before, tax planning is a big part of it. You know, trying to figure that out. Of course, I'm pretty far away from having to worry about RMDs and all that kind of stuff, but it's something at least to talk about and think about in preparation. But.

A (28:23)

Is there anything you learned about yourself either in those last two months post retirement or even in the year leading up to it, knowing everything that went on in that year, Anything that you know now about yourself that you didn't know year and a half ago?

B (28:37)

I think I'm still too early, man. You know, maybe as time goes by I'll be more self reflective and see something, but right now it's just enjoying the, the free time. Yeah, yeah, like I said, I'm sort of catching back up on some of the. I sort of got into some old hat, some bad habits, I should say, of not reading. I used to be a voracious reader when I was younger and, and then, you know, obviously once I got into work and having kids and all that, then, you know, I sort of went by the wayside. So I've really enjoyed picking the books back up again and reading and expanding my mind and, you know, I may be retired, but I'm not, I'm not stopping learning. You know, I still want to learn and I want to educate myself. So I really enjoy reading, you know, a lot of these classics too, which, you know, maybe I haven't read them since I was in high school or something. But it's. I'm enjoying it.

A (29:36)

Yeah, you're enjoying the moment. You don't need a ton of reflection if you're enjoying it and doing the things that. That you enjoy doing with the people you enjoy doing them with. Michael, as. As we wrap. So retirement, so far, so good, relatively short period of time. But for that person that is considering an early retirement but can't bring themselves to do it, can't pull themselves, can't pull the trigger, what guidance. I think we kind of already covered a lot of it. What final words do you have for that person? What final guidance do you have for that person that is struggling to make that decision?

B (30:07)

Yeah, just do it again. If you're financially able, if you have a job that. That you're not enjoying or you reach the point to where you're just done, just go ahead and pull the trigger and. And retire. The sense of freedom that you feel, especially after. Because, you know, the first week is like, you know, you're taking like, you know, vacation or PTO or whatever, but once you get into that second, third week, you realize, hey, I don't have to go back to a job. I can do whatever I want to do. And it's just, you know, it's liberating. It really is. And you feel like, you know, the world is just wide open to whatever you want to do. Um, and, you know, you know, some. I had one day where I just sat home and binged Reacher on Amazon, which was great. You know, I've never been able to, you know, just sit there and watch, like two or three episodes back to back and binge watch something. So, I mean, not that I would suggest that people sit home and watch TV all day, but it was. It was. It was fun just to do that one day when, you know, I was able to do it. It was great. So it's. It's just. It's wide open to do whatever you want to do. Whatever. Whatever you're interested in, you know, whatever. Whatever pushes you. Just, you know, you can do it.

A (31:26)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, love it. Thank you, Michael, for coming on. Thank you for sharing about what's been really amazing. Thank you for sharing about what your wife went through and how that was. And that's just reality and the perspective that that brings as you prepare for retirement. Best of luck for continued success, successful retirement. And thank you for joining me on today's show where retirement reality.

B (31:46)

Yeah, it's good meeting you.

A (31:48)

Good to meet you, too. Thanks, Michael.