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- [00:00]
Kevin Posobec
This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.
- [00:04]
Jack Armstrong
Why should you listen to Armstrong and Getty on Demand? We're not boring. A lot of news is boring and tedious and depressing. It makes you angry. You don't want to live your life like that. Hey, I'm Jack Armstrong. He's Joe Getty. We're Armstrong and Getty. We try to bring you the truth and help you figure out this crazy modern world.
- [00:21]
Kevin Posobec
How about something about a comedic tone?
- [00:26]
Jack Armstrong
We have a winner. Yes. Listen to Armstrong and Getty on Demand on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:35]
Bo Davidson
Never ever stop fighting, no matter what.
- [00:39]
Will Chamberlain
We will achieve American greatness. We are just getting started.
- [00:53]
Bo Davidson
Did he spend spend the night in the apartment the night of September 9th into September 10th? Yeah, he did. Yes.
- [01:03]
Will Chamberlain
Do you know when he left the
- [01:05]
Bo Davidson
apartment on September 10th?
- [01:06]
Kevin Posobec
I don't know an exact time.
- [01:08]
Bo Davidson
I just know he left early. I heard him leaving and he just said he had a like, long drive
- [01:15]
Jack Armstrong
to work that day.
- [01:16]
Bo Davidson
So he was leaving early. And he asked me for a. If we had like a Dremel to. Because he said he wanted to create messages on bullets.
- [01:25]
Kevin Posobec
And I want to point out to the court, Ms. Kirk has been very
- [01:27]
Bo Davidson
adept at holding press conferences at which
- [01:30]
Jack Armstrong
she has revealed evidence she has represented
- [01:35]
Kevin Posobec
that the state is her attorney.
- [01:38]
Bo Davidson
She has access to all the evidence that the state has publicized and that the media and her own lawyer argues is already in the public domain.
- [01:50]
Will Chamberlain
What are we looking at here in Exhibit 19?
- [01:52]
Kevin Posobec
This is the cartridge case that was
- [01:54]
Will Chamberlain
recovered from the gun.
- [01:56]
Bo Davidson
And what position was this in in the gun?
- [01:59]
Kevin Posobec
This was the. Or this is what was in the chamber.
- [02:03]
Bo Davidson
When they got to the point discussing
- [02:05]
Kevin Posobec
the rifle that was used, Tyler Robinson
- [02:08]
Bo Davidson
was squirming, apparently uncomfortable, swinging in his chair, scratching his nose.
- [02:13]
Kevin Posobec
He looked uncomfortable with the texts that were being discussed.
- [02:16]
Will Chamberlain
Also, Erica Kirk was looking down, leaning
- [02:20]
Bo Davidson
forward, not looking at the screen showing those texts. Our reporter also said Erica was audibly
- [02:25]
Will Chamberlain
crying throughout the proceeding.
- [02:27]
Bo Davidson
Today,
- [02:41]
Judge Graff
Having considered the arguments presented by counsel and having reviewed the events that occurred yesterday, the court finds that its order prohibiting the publication or broadcast of Exhibit 16 by the Media camera was violated. The court agrees with the defense. This constituted a violation of the court's order. Compliance with court's orders. Court orders is essential in all proceedings and is of particular importance, given the nature of these proceedings. With respect to defense's request as a sanction, that the court reverse its ruling on Defense Motion 305, Motion to Exclude cameras, the request is respectfully Denied. The analysis underlying the court's prior ruling remains unchanged and the court adheres to its reasoning and conclusions.
- [03:31]
Bo Davidson
And welcome to justice for Charlie. An hour of thoughtful analysis. Human Events daily will be airing tonight as usual as the preliminary hearing of Tyler Robinson has actually come to a close. I don't know guys if we have the clip ready yet, but judge, Judge Graff has ruled that this is going to be ending as of now. So let's take a look at that clip right now, your honor.
- [03:55]
Judge Graff
All right, so this preliminary hearing is continued to September 1st at 10:00am for an in person hearing. The court will allocate up to 4 hours total for argument that's encompassing both parties. Does the defense request that Mr. Robinson be physically present for that hearing?
- [04:13]
Will Chamberlain
Yes, your honor.
- [04:14]
Judge Graff
All right, we'll make the recording. Thank you. The court appreciates the professionalism, civility and respect shown by counsel, the parties and all persons in attendance throughout these proceedings. As there are no matters, no further matters before the court, this proceeding is adjourned until September 1st at 10am Good afternoon to you all. All right.
- [04:38]
Bo Davidson
And I'm joined by Benny Ray, Harmony. Benny. Well, there you have it. Five days, not even five full days of the pre trial hearing of Tyler Robinson is now complete. It's in the books. Judge Graff has said the next hearing will be on September 1st, which seems like an eternity from now. I'll be honest, I think we have had a lot of conjecture about why this has taken so long while it would continue to feel so long. You know, we're not judge Graf. We're a part public method of judging, shall we say. We've seen the evidence, we've seen what the judge has seen, or most of it. And I think most of us have made up our minds. I would think those rational among us. But Benny, I just want to get your take on that because we've gone through five days of trial now. Not trial, pretrial hearing. It's important to note that. And it's going to still take a bit of time before we know whether there's probable cause. Your thoughts on that?
- [05:32]
Benny Ray Harmony
Yeah, well, quite frankly, I, you know, you know, we aren't the judge, we aren't the judge and we, we don't know the amount of, of all the things that he has to go through. But it's quite frustrating that it's coming up on a year since Charlie's death and you know, September 1st for the decision that's an entire, that's, it's two months away. You know, I respect the Judge and how he said he wants to make sure he. He has thought everything through, he's viewed everything. He doesn't want to rush it. I appreciate that. But what about Erica? What about. She's been there, sitting there for five days, all the TPUSA employees and people that have been waiting for so long to get more than this. And so I'm a little disappointed that there wasn't a ruling today. But, yeah, September 1st at 10:00am that's what he said. And he'll issue his decision.
- [06:25]
Bo Davidson
Well, I think what probably most of us are thinking, and if you're watching right now, you're probably thinking this from a legal perspective, the bar is very low. To get probable cause, a lot of states have a grand jury indictment. In the case of Utah, they have this pretrial hearing. Not all states have that. But when you listen to five days of pretrial hearing, when you see the evidence, when you see the movements of Tyler Robinson, when you see the bullet casings, when you see that there was that he was asking for a tool, a dremel, to engrave them, when you see they have it all, though, it's all there. And again, I know that we're not the judge, but when you look at the totality of the evidence, I believe he could have made that judgment, that determination for probable cause today. This is not the trial. All they're determining is probable cause to go to trial. An idiot could figure that out. And I'm sorry, I'm not calling Judge Graff an idiot. I just believe that we have made that determination collectively as a nation. What more do you need to see?
- [07:18]
Benny Ray Harmony
Yeah, I mean, a year, Bo. A year that it's 10 months since, you know, Erica. And I just. My heart, it just. It keeps going back to Erica because, you know, at the beginning of this, she asked for a speedy trial. She asked for a speedy decision. She.
- [07:34]
Jack Armstrong
Why should you listen to Armstrong and Getty on demand? We're not boring. A lot of news is boring and tedious and depressing and makes you angry. You don't want to live your life like that. Hey, I'm Jack Armstrong.
- [07:46]
Bo Davidson
He's Joe Getty.
- [07:47]
Jack Armstrong
We're Armstrong and Getty. We try to bring you the truth and help you figure out this crazy modern world.
- [07:51]
Kevin Posobec
How about something about a comedic tone?
- [07:56]
Jack Armstrong
We have a winner. Yes. Listen to Armstrong and Getty on Demand on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [08:04]
Bo Davidson
It was an accident. But as a result of that, Judge Graff felt there had to be some level of measurable sanction for that. His ruling on that today, Benny, was that there were no video exhibits that could be seen not only by us at home, but also within the courtroom. Meaning Erica Kirk can't see them, Jack Posobec can't see them. We would only be hearing audio only of those exhibits. Now, thankfully, the previous four days have permitted us to see many of these exhibits, including, you know, obviously the video. The video confession. I'm sorry, not the video confession. The video of Lance Twigs talking about the confession. We've seen a lot of those text messages. So this was the last day of the pre trial hearing. So there wasn't a ton of evidence for us to physically view. I just think it's a shame that Judge Graff felt the need to discipline the state for something that was an accident.
- [08:52]
Benny Ray Harmony
Well, Bo, quite frankly, I think that the defense has been waiting for something like this to happen. Of course, from day one, they have argued no cameras in the court courtroom. This is not, you know, the public should not. This should not be broadcasted across the world. So I think when the defense woke up this morning, they were so excited that they got to go in there and finally feel like they got their way.
- [09:12]
Will Chamberlain
Right.
- [09:12]
Bo Davidson
One win.
- [09:13]
Benny Ray Harmony
Yeah, one win. That's about all they have so far. And I don't think they're going to be getting much more. But you know, Judge Graft, he can't, you know, there has to be some balance of fairness. Right. And so even though there is a lot of evidence, if he just continues to rule in favor of the prosecution again and again and again. And you know, yes, there was a mistake that happened, but like you said, it was three, not it was like three and a half seconds or something crazy, you know, and everyone took responsibility for that. But I do believe the defense has been waiting for that and they are going to nitpick those things throughout this entire trial and every single thing they will find to try to pull the thread apart.
- [09:52]
Will Chamberlain
Right.
- [09:52]
Bo Davidson
And I do want to bring in our guests now. We do have Will Chamberlain, the senior counsel for the Article 3 project. Will, thanks for being with us today. You know, just on the heels of what Benny and I were just talking about, pretrial hearing is over. I want to get your observations on it and just some of the thoughts that we've had thus far. I know we're all impatient. Everyone's being impatient because we believe there should be swift justice for Charlie. We believe that there is a totality of evidence that cannot be denied. We believe There's a totality of evidence that would convict him. I believe there's a totality of evidence to go for the count one for the targeted enhancement for the death penalty. How do you see it?
- [10:31]
Will Chamberlain
I mean, I think that's all obviously true. I mean, the evidence presented that we saw in the last four days was overwhelming. I understand why the judge is doing what he's doing. Honestly, I'm personally surprised that the judge allowed so much to be published to the public, because basically the analogy here to these preliminary hearings is like a grand jury indictment. In other states, they don't do a public preliminary hearing. They do a grand jury indictment in secret. Part of the reason that you have secret proceedings is that the idea that people, the grand jury can see the evidence, whatever it is, in secret, and that evidence is not published to the public, that could potentially contaminate a jury trial. Whereas in Utah, they do it differently. And there's obviously this deep risk that when you allow evidence in and before you have determinations of admissibility, you're going to have evidence that the potential jury pool is aware of that a judge later thinks shouldn't be evaluated in the context of the trial. So it was always surprising to me that, you know, in this context, he'd be willing to let so much be shown to the public. But to his credit, he did that said, once you have. He made a call that something shouldn't have been shown to the public, and the media screwed it up and did show it to the public. I can certainly understand his attitude that the whole experiment of letting exhibits be published needed to come to an end, because ultimately, the only determination that needed to be made from a legal perspective here was the judge's own determination that there was probable cause. So nobody else really needed to see this evidence from a legal perspective. Obviously, there's the victim's rights and the right of the public. I mean, I wouldn't even call it the right of the public. There's a public interest in having all this information be there, but there's no right to it. As for the sort of speed of things, I think, yeah, things are going slowly because the defense wants them to go slowly, but ultimately, it's the defense's core right to a speedy trial. Right. Like, I think that, you know, there's an interest in a speedy trial from the victim's perspective, but there's a right to a speedy trial from the defense. Like, if the defense gets up and says, you need to try me asap, that actually can force the prosecutors to Bring the case almost immediately. That's not true from the victim's perspective. And so as a result, if the defense says, look, there's a huge amount of complicated evidence that we need to have to master and understand. And as a result, you know, you need to set an extended trial timeline so that we can competently represent our client. It's going to be very hard for a judge to look that, look the other way because again, you got to think on appeal, what happens if the judge says no, we need to go to trial immediately. And the defense had already objected saying no, we need a lot more time to evaluate. There's, you know, this massive amount of evidence that's been been thrust upon us by the prosecution. That would be a very bad situation on appeal. It could lead to the whole trial getting thrown out. So it's not surprising to me, again, and this on this as well, that the judge is being conservative here, giving, making sure the defense has no complaints that they have, you know, they get as fulsome a preliminary hearing as they apparently wanted, I think a mistake on their part, and that they get a substantial amount of time to prepare for trial. But the end result here is, I mean, it's going to be a guilty verdict, the evidence is overwhelming and will.
- [13:24]
Benny Ray Harmony
Is there any world in which he calls them back sooner? You know, I don't know a lot about the legal system when it comes to these types of things, but is there in any world, is this a possibility?
- [13:36]
Will Chamberlain
Seems pretty unlikely to me. I mean, September 1st is seven weeks, something like that. It's actually not. I mean, it seems, you know, we're in the middle of summer, so we don't think, you know, September's this whole season, but it's actually, it's only about seven weeks away. That's not unheard of for kind of, you know, because there's some briefing that needs to happen here too, apparently. Right. Like the prosecution needs to put out a brief based on all the evidence presented that there is probable cause. The defense gets to write some briefs that there aren't, and the prosecution gets a reply. And then the judge needs to evaluate it and write an opinion. So all that, all that's seven weeks is a reasonable amount of period, reasonable period for all that briefing and the opinion to issue in terms of the trial. Again, I mean, as I say, I expect the judge to be conservative here. I think he doesn't want to have to do this again. I think that's his sort of interest. Right. And from his perspective, he has other business. He can attend to in the interim while the defense lawyers are, while everybody gets to master the actual material pretrial. But he doesn't want to. If you're thinking like from the judge's perspective, this trial is going to be a weeks long affair. Having to repeat weeks long events is an extraordinary expense for the court. So they do what they can to avoid that.
- [14:43]
Bo Davidson
Will, I want to ask you, just so our audience understands, because it was a little difficult for me to understand, I understand why Judge Graff ruled the way he did with respect to prohibiting future exhibits. But how does the display of the photo of Robinson's confession violate his civil rights, his constitutional rights, if most of the text is already public? I mean, I got the defense's objection saying it is permanent because it is a permanent photo that will forever be out there. But how does, but how does that violate his constitution constitutional right if most of what was in that photo, not the photo itself, but the text is already out there? And does that have any bearing on the trial itself?
- [15:20]
Will Chamberlain
So I think here's the way to think about it. What is the right that's being protected is that the right is that the defendant is being tried by getting a fair trial. And a fair trial in our system is one where the jury evaluates admissible evidence and admissible evidence only. So that's, that's what a fair trial is. And so I think the way that the judge has approached this question of publication, because if you recall, there's these interesting debates about, for example, why is the Lance Twigs video being shown? And a lot, you know, Candace, among others has complained is like, whoa, you can't show the video. He needs to come in and testify. That's not true. The preliminary hearing stage, because guilt isn't being adjudicated. It's only probable cause. So you can, you can bring in evidence that wouldn't be admissible at trial because at trial the defendant will have a constitutional right to confront their accuser. So as a result, you have situations where there's evidence that's going to, that would be admissible at a preliminary hearing, but it's not going to be admissible at trial. And if it's going to be published, then the fear is that that evidence is going to have been seen by the jury, even though, and then used as part of the determination improperly. So that's the basic metric. Like that's what the judge is trying to avoid. So then you go to the specific question. I don't know exactly what the issue would have been with this particular piece of paper. It's possible there's a hearsay issue, but I think the more likely thing is that because it's like a handwritten piece of paper, there's going to be some authentication questions that haven't been resolved yet. I assume that eventually at trial that piece of paper will come in. But I think from the judge's perspective, perhaps there was a. There's like. Well, it's not 100% certain that'll come in. And if I let the public see this and it gets widely distributed, then that's a big risk to the ultimate trial fairness. So I have to. I can evaluate it now on the probable cause basis, but I don't want the public seeing this yet because of the possible, you know, the small possibility that it will be found inadmissible. And that's sort of his perspective, I think, likely. And so if he made that order and then the media violated it, well, it's likely not to do any actual harm again, because most likely that piece of paper will come in as evidence.
- [17:33]
Bo Davidson
Yeah.
- [17:33]
Will Chamberlain
But it just indicates to the judge that his protective rulings to sort of protect question, you know, evidence where there's some question of admissibility for being seen by the public. If those rulings won't be obeyed, then none of it. He just needs to not let anything be seen by the. By the gallery.
- [17:49]
Benny Ray Harmony
And will, you know, my question, we've seen a lot of evidence these past four or five days. You know, is this common for prelim hearings? You know, because I'm hearing a lot of people say that the amount of evidence that is being introduced isn't maybe as typical as it is in other trials. But you also brought up the inadmissible perspective. And for our viewers, what. What types of evidence do you think will be allowed versus the stuff that won't? Will there be things like that we saw and heard during the preliminary that absolutely will not be introduced. Kind of break that down for us.
- [18:25]
Will Chamberlain
I think the only thing I remember seeing during the preliminary that I am sure will not be in the trial is the video recording of Lance Twigs's interview with the police. And that is because, you know, one that's hearsay and there's no. There's no good reasonable exception for just, you know, hearsay. Right. A recording of somebody saying something. It's not the best evidence because Lance Twigs exists and can testify. And it would violate the confrontation clause rights of Tyler Robinson. He has the right to confront of his accuser. So all those things mean there's no way that video would come in. And as a result, I mean, what's going to happen at trial instead? That doesn't mean that Lance Twiggs's testimony won't be in a trial. It certainly will. He'll show up, he'll be subpoenaed and he'll have to testify under oath. But he'll also be then subject to cross examination. Right, that you can't cross examine a video. You can cross examine a human. So that's, that's the big thing I noticed that was shown that like Will not appear at trial. And so I was actually kind of surprised that he let any of that video be published. I really was. I mean, it's good because it really does put the nail in the coffin of all these conspiracy theories. I'm glad it glad he did, but I was surprised because I thought, you know, there would be some fear about jury contamination.
- [19:38]
Bo Davidson
So Will, on that note, now we don't have, we might have to hold you through the break. But you're saying that he could be subpoenaed. Does that change anything for prosecution or defense in terms of Lance Twiggs being there in person, facing his, I guess, former lover, does he have the gall, does he have the constitution to be able to say the same things he said and possibly more and withstand cross examination? Cuz this seemed like a very tame interview, you know, I mean, he seemed calm, he seemed collected. No one's giving him tough questions about. Now, wait a minute. You know, and I'm just thinking of what a defense strategy would be. Is there, are there vulnerabilities to the state's case if Lance Twiggs testifies?
- [20:19]
Will Chamberlain
I suspect that there will not be much on cross examination from the defense of Lance Twiggs. And the reason being that, you know, what would you be trying to get out of him? Well, maybe you'd be trying to extract more information about his own culpability. But all that would do is sort of reinforce the underlying guilt of your client too. Because if Lance Twiggs was somehow involved in motivating Tyler Robinson to do this, well, guess what? Tyler Robinson still pulled the trigger. That would just be more evidence hurting you. So I suspect that, you know, if I'm sitting there as defense counsel, it's one of those situations where there just aren't going to be a lot of good questions for me to ask Lance Twigs that help exonerate my client. But that sort of is part of a really broader problem in this case is that there's not a lot of great questions, and there's not a lot of great strategies here for the defense in terms of, like, what it can do to really create meaningful doubt in a jury.
- [21:05]
Bo Davidson
So, if anything, him being put on the stand would be even more damning for Tyler Robinson in this case.
- [21:11]
Will Chamberlain
I mean. Yeah, I would assume so. And he would. You know, the prosecution would get a long time to think about all the questions they want to ask. Right. They get to prepare, too. So this isn't just a police interview where they're just asking kind of questions and sort of exploring. They will have, like, a very sustained, prepared list of questions and thoughts that they want to extract.
- [21:31]
Bo Davidson
Okay, well, Will, if we could keep you on after the break, that would be wonderful. We'd love to continue the conversation. So we'll be right back with more justice for Charlie. Never, ever stop fighting, no matter what.
- [21:44]
Will Chamberlain
We will achieve American greatness. We are just getting started.
- [21:55]
Jack Armstrong
Why should you listen to Armstrong and Getty on Demand? We're not boring. A lot of news is boring and tedious and depressing and makes you angry. You don't want to live your life like that. Hey, I'm Jack Armstrong. He's Joe Getty. We're Armstrong and Getty. We try to bring you the truth and help you figure out this crazy modern world.
- [22:11]
Kevin Posobec
How about something about a comedic tone?
- [22:16]
Jack Armstrong
We have a winner. Yes. Listen to Armstrong and Getty on Demand on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [22:26]
Bo Davidson
Never, ever stop fighting, no matter what.
- [22:30]
Will Chamberlain
We will achieve American greatness. We are just getting started.
- [22:41]
Bo Davidson
Welcome back to justice for Charlie. We still have Wil Chamberlain on with us, senior counsel for the Article 3 project. Will, before we went to break, we were talking about Lance Twiggs. We only saw a heavily redacted video. We don't know everything that's in that video testimony, but he was given partial immunity. Talk about that level of partial immunity. Because my understanding is that he can't be prosecuted for anything that he said in that particular interrogation. And we don't even know the totality of what he said. But I'm just wondering what else could be in there and what he could be getting immunity for potentially.
- [23:12]
Will Chamberlain
All right, so, you know, understanding there's two basic types of immunity. There's use immunity, and there's transactional immunity. So use immunity is the more limited form that Twigs was given saying that we can't use the testimony that you gave us or the fruits of that testimony. Like, if. If we are able to do some investigation that was catalyzed by an admission you made, then that also doesn't count. Transactional immunity is broader at saying literally anything that is the subject matter of your testimony will, in the entirety of the transaction is the way to think about it. You are now immune from. So even if we have an independent way to prove you committed a crime in this, in the context of this event, that would mean that we wouldn't be able to. The prosecutors wouldn't be able to bring a charge. This is the more limited form. I expect that the, the prosecution, you know, there might well be a day when Lance Twiggs gets prosecuted for his conduct here if, if the prosecutors in Utah believe they have him, he's been kind of hiding the ball and, and been is more culpable than he's been willing to admit. But I suspect that, you know, that's. That, that that's in the future. The first thing, obviously, is to get the guy who pulled the trigger convicted.
- [24:21]
Benny Ray Harmony
Yeah. And Will, you know, I've been seeing a few things online about how that testimony from twigs for this prelim could have. I mean, the prosecution probably could have got by with just using that. Obviously there was so much more evidence and so obviously bring that forth. But do you think that, you know, it is damning enough? Do you think that that by Twigs is damning enough?
- [24:46]
Will Chamberlain
Yeah, Well, I mean, that, that on its own, it's probably sufficient because it reveals at least two distinct confessions by Robinson on its own. Right. I mean, it reveals the confession over text and that it reveals the confession in the form of the note that he left handwritten under his keyboard, the sort of advanced confession. So I mean, the. Independent of really everything else. I mean, a jury could honestly, even without any other evidence involved, a jury could look at that and decide that beyond a reasonable doubt, Tyler Robinson did it. And that's beyond. You know, we're not even talking about all the video evidence, physical evidence, DNA evidence, you name it. So, yeah, it's a very damning video. It also corroborates a bunch of interesting facts, like talking about how early in the morning Robinson would have left their St. George apartment. You know, it's like around 4 or 5 in the morning, which makes it matches the timeline exactly. And I think Jack Vesobi pointed out something very interesting. You know, when Robinson was allegedly hiding in the neighborhood at. In the evening after the shooting, trying to get an opportunity to go get his rifle back, he texted that twigs about how the crickets were super loud. And apparently the nest video that captured Robinson's Car at the time mentioned exactly that. Actually, not didn't mention it. But the nest video has loud crickets going off in the background right at the time and right at the time that the text was sent. So there's a lot of little individual corroborating facts that, you know, that Twiggs provides here. He's the person who can authenticate the note. That's a really important piece of how that note comes into evidence. Right, like. Because think about it. In the absence of anybody explaining what this note is, you don't know that Tyler Robinson wrote it, you don't know when he wrote it, et cetera. So it really does require Twiggs to be on the stand explaining the context in which he was told to look for the note, where he found it, and who could have possibly written it. That's all important information that he's gonna be a necessary witness for.
- [26:40]
Bo Davidson
And he also didn't delete it as Tyler Robinson said he should. He did not delete the exchange, and he did work with. Cooperate with law enforcement. I'd love, Will, for you to get into Tyler Robinson's frame of mind right now. And I don't know how this will play out in the trial in terms of how the jury would convict him or sentence him, because I know there is that threshold for count one in terms of the targeting enhancement. But as I looked at those text messages, Twigs, you weren't the one who did it, right? Robinson, I am, comma. I'm sorry. Now, we've mentioned, I think, even Jack Bassopa yesterday, that there seems to be no remorse. That apology to me, you tell me how you read it is not I'm sorry for what I did. I'm not sorry I just killed Charlie Kirk. It's, I'm sorry to you, Lance, for involving you or the fact that I might not see you again. I don't know if it went through his mind, I might be put away for life or I might be put to death by firing squad. But that level of I'm sorry has no remorse whatsoever. He was more concerned about his grandfather's hunting rifle than he was about what he'd done. That seems to be the frame of mind. I'd love to get your assessment of that and how that could play into how a jury will view the actions of Tyler Robinson.
- [27:48]
Will Chamberlain
I think that's exactly right. I think, you know, he's saying I'm sorry to his boyfriend on the grounds that, you know, I'm sorry that I have now committed a serious crime. That's Gonna lead me to be apart from you. That's sort of how I read that. That as opposed to being, you know, there is no expression of remorse to the family of. Of Erica Kirk. I mean, he's. He's pled not guilty. He hasn't said anything on that front. I think, in terms of his mindset now. I mean, he's just. I. I heard yesterday, Jack described about how, you know, the media who are in the jury box and able to see his facial expressions, apparently said that he was grimacing and really kind of, you know, not comfortable when. When the Twigs video was being played. And I think he knows that he's in serious trouble. And he just, you know, like, as much as we are annoyed that this continues, like, he's not going anywhere. He's sitting in jail, and he's going to keep sitting in jail until trial. And then unless, you know, he manages to get acquitted, which he almost certainly won't, he's just going to spend the rest of his life in jail and probably. And that life may be much shorter than the average life because he may well be put to death.
- [28:52]
Bo Davidson
Will, do you think he gets put to death? I know I've asked this. I've asked it pretty much of every guest, but the reason why I ask is because I'm looking at that jury pool, what it could be, you know, Utah, a heavily LDS community. I'm not saying every person on that jury is going to be lds, but I'm just wondering about getting the unanimity for that count. Does the state go for that? Does somehow Robinson work out a plea deal of life without parole, even though certain elements are not certain appeals are not waivable? What do you think?
- [29:18]
Will Chamberlain
I think this. I mean, I think he gets the death penalty. I think that they're, you know, whatever. I mean, the death penalty exists in Utah for a reason. I think even if there are some people reluctant to do it, I think, you know, there's nothing that is more deserving of it than political assassination. It's just totally antithetical to the way our country needs to work. It's the kind of thing that needs to be deterred with a maximum possible sanction that we have, and death is the maximum possible sanction.
- [29:41]
Bo Davidson
All right, well, Chairman, thank you so much for speaking with us today. That was incredible. And I also want to let you guys know that coming up, we have something called justice for the Missing Minutes. It is a wonderful expose where Kevin Posobec goes behind the scenes and retraces the steps of Tyler Robinson. We'll be seeing that right after the break, so do not go anywhere. You won't want to miss the missing minutes just ahead. Stay with us.
- [30:04]
Kevin Posobec
Never, ever stop fighting, no matter what.
- [30:09]
Will Chamberlain
We will achieve American greatness. We are just getting started.
- [30:20]
Jack Armstrong
Why should you listen to Armstrong and Getty on demand? We're not boring. A lot of news is boring and tedious and depressing and makes you angry. You don't want to live your life like that. Hey, I'm Jack Armstrong. He's Joe Getty. We're Armstrong and Getty. We try to bring you the truth and help you figure out this crazy modern world.
- [30:36]
Kevin Posobec
How about something about a comedic tone?
- [30:41]
Jack Armstrong
We have a winner. Yes. Listen to Armstrong. You get it on Demand on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [30:50]
Bo Davidson
Never, ever stop fighting, no matter what.
- [30:55]
Will Chamberlain
We will achieve American greatness. And we are just getting started.
- [31:05]
Bo Davidson
Welcome back to justice for Charlie. We want to show you a very special presentation by Kevin Posobic called Justice for the Missing Minutes.
- [31:13]
Will Chamberlain
How do you want to be remembered? If I die, everything just goes away.
- [31:16]
Bo Davidson
How would you. If you could be associated with one thing, how would you want to be remembered to be?
- [31:21]
Will Chamberlain
I want to be remembered for.
- [31:23]
Bo Davidson
For courage, for my faith.
- [31:25]
Will Chamberlain
That.
- [31:25]
Bo Davidson
That would be the most important, most
- [31:27]
Kevin Posobec
important thing people say.
- [31:29]
Bo Davidson
Are you going to run for Senate or Congress? I'd say, listen.
- [31:36]
Will Chamberlain
All right, we're going to get started, everybody. Oh, my God.
- [31:42]
Bo Davidson
Go.
- [31:42]
Benny Ray Harmony
Run. Run.
- [31:47]
Jack Armstrong
Foreign
- [31:50]
Kevin Posobec
this is Kevin Posobic, RAV Field correspondent, continuing exclusive footage from this week's coverage. Okay. And as you could tell, I'm at UVU campus. Today. We're going to do a short walkthrough of the path of the alleged assassin. And just yesterday, day two, we had a presentation of where the steps were. They are right here. This is. Is the actual one. I mean, this campus is full of staircases and split level areas, tunnels, whatnot. So, but we were able to find it. Okay. And this is the retaining wall. And for context, I'm six foot two. Okay. So imagine if you can, I'm walking down and we have a production camera here. It's actually right next to the security camera. It's still up, up. And so slightly, slightly different angles. That one, of course, is more of a bulb lens, almost like a 0.5, if you will, using an iPhone. So it's slightly altered. And yeah, so we're just going to follow along as close as we can for. For more edification for everyone here. Okay, so now we're in proximity to the end of this short tunnel where Tyler Robinson, the alleged assassin, would have came. And imagine, if you will, of course, a rifle on the right leg. I won't recreate the gate here for you, but we're just doing a general overview of the path that he took. Keep in mind too, like behind me in the corner, there's a security camera. And we'll show you up the staircase here. There's another camera. There's many in on this campus. Okay, so alternate angles. So he would have came here, grabbed the railing, and then gone up this way. And this up here is where you would see the other photography. Still frames came out in proceedings as well. Not to be mistaken with any. Any other produce pictures. That's where a lot of the confusion may be coming from. There's many similar staircases. A commercial kind of. It's just. It's just a regular old parking lot. But there's several all around the campus. And. But yeah, we're trying to give you a little more clear production. Obviously, it's a very nice camera as opposed to maybe something that might be a little less quality, like these security cameras. Okay, so now we're outside of the parking lot. Just over my shoulder there is where he would have parked the Challenger. So we're walking along. And keep in mind this. So it's July right now. This is September 10th, so it's still hot and humid. And I gotta think to myself, like, why would he be dressed like that? You know, to like. Of course, like in. In so. So inconspicuously. Of course he's in trying to be incognito, but it's. It's hot. That's my point. Okay, so he comes. There's this Hornson center to our right. And in there is where the Chick Fil a is where he had lunch, allegedly. And I had the question as well, because this is a secure campus and most modern campuses are if he had needed access with a key card because it is so open, as opposed to maybe some other more private colleges. But being that it's a cafeteria style, it's probably just open to the public. We could double check, but I think easy access, unfortunately, in this case. So. And then we are continuing on to the Losee Center. Right. So just for reference difference, again, we're. We're not on the exact path because we don't really know exactly which way he went. But we're getting towards the Losi Center. The Sorensen center is right there. But I wanted to show you there's Multiple utility ladders here up along these roofs for access, maintenance access and whatnot. Again, though, there's. There's. I would say maybe six, seven split levels here, and some are. It's also the ground. Okay, the ground. And then it turns into a roof for the next level and so on. So there's about five or six of those here with these utility ladders. And as we wrap around, we will come up on the scene. But, yeah, again, for reference, the Sorensen center is. Is right in the line of sight where the Chick Fil A is. Okay. So now we're almost at the vantage point here. The roof of the lotion center is right there. Okay. And that is the. The railing that he rolled over. Okay. To get into position. This fence here is a construction fence, probably because so many people want to come and retrace the steps as well. That's new. But I want to pay attention also to this staircase here, which you may have come up again, just to get even more cover. The only other route would have been to go the distance of this. This level of the roof. So we're going to walk up here as well. And. And then we'll show you also where the camera was that has been presented where he jumped off the roof. We're atop the LOSI center here along this walkway. Again, so this is a ground level, but also the roof. So this becomes on the edge out there is the roof and the corner where the alleged shot took place. Okay. And then if you pan with me here, we can also see from this point to this elevation, the corner of this building. You could see the statue there. And that far corner there is where the jump off point is. And I was there on Sunday. I estimated to be about 16ft. It's quite a drop. Okay. And he didn't jump off gracefully, let's say. Okay. Kind of just fell straight down. I'm surprised it didn't break his leg or anything like that. And then if you pan a little farther, you could see there's still a security camera on the. The upper level of this building behind us, which is where the footage was taken from of, you know, this. This raised walkway here and running across the roof. Again, we're not trying to really split hairs on anything. I'm just here to give you contextual footage, you know, during day three here for the RAV audience. You know, from a personal standpoint, it's very surreal to be here, and it's kind of hard to be here, too, walking through it. So I appreciate y' all being with us. And so after this, we're going to head down to the actual amphitheater. All right, so we are at the amphitheater. Now, it's kind of self explanatory, but I wanted to show the vantage point to my left here to the top of the Lucy Center. It's the top roof there and sweeping down all the way to the amphitheater itself here. I originally thought it was higher. Okay. But being here, being the carpenter myself, and you know, it gave. Gave me an appreciation of. So the farther away you are, the shallower the angle. Okay. So it does make a lot more sense now and then with this, like pointy roof of the Rosenson Center. I said, well, maybe, you know, so I've been a little skeptical of these kinds of things, but being here on the ground has cleared that up for me in particular. So again, I. I want to thank you guys for being here with us. It's very sensitive topic. It's. It's been a very heavy three days here witnessing everybody coming in, like Charlie's parents, even Tyler's parents, you know, and. And just the resolve they have to get through this. Erica and Don, I can't imagine. I've spoken briefly with Jack as well. He's been in there grueling it out. He's got his rosary with him and. But yeah, I just wanted to come here. I was at the Charlie's memorial and in Arizona there. But, you know, just to help closure for myself and anyone else that follows me, you know, it's good to just show up. It's more trad, I guess, just to be there, you know. So if you will maybe say a little. Say a little prayer here as we recap. Dear Lord, we just want to thank you for everything you blessed us with. Please continue to guide us, protect us and provide for us in ways that we can for ourselves. And we are grateful for everyone that's here to see this thing through. And we pray for your justice to be served in Jesus name, Amen.
- [41:30]
Jack Armstrong
Why should you listen to Armstrong and Getty on demand? We're not boring. A lot of news is boring and tedious and depressing and makes you angry. You don't want to live your life like that. Hey, I'm Jack Armstrong.
- [41:41]
Bo Davidson
He's Joe Getty.
- [41:42]
Jack Armstrong
We're Armstrong and Getty. We try to bring you the truth and help you figure out this crazy modern world.
- [41:46]
Kevin Posobec
How about something about a comedic tone?
- [41:51]
Jack Armstrong
We have a winner. Yes. Listen to Armstrong and Yeti on Demand on the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [42:00]
Bo Davidson
Never, ever stop fighting, no matter what.
- [42:04]
Will Chamberlain
We will achieve American greatness. And we are just getting started.
- [42:14]
Bo Davidson
Welcome back to justice for Charlie. I'm Bo Davidson, along with Benny Ray Harmony. We do have Kevin Pisod, but with us live from Utah. Kevin, first of all, kudos to such a beautiful and intriguing piece that caused us to reflect. I think that yearns for justice. I love the fact you ended it with a prayer, which I think solemnly is how and reverently how you should end it. Let me just ask you what it was like to retrace those steps, because I was in Dallas recently and it had been a while, but I retraced the steps of what would have been the grassy knoll, the book depository, you know, with the JFK assassination. And it's eerie sometimes to walk the steps of someone who has committed such an atrocity, whereas if it had never happened, it would just be just another street, it would be just another campus. It'd be just another stairwell. But in your case, you're retracing steps that someone had to methodically plan, premeditate, to go hunting, as he would say. So I just want to get your take on what that was like, to have to go back and retrace those steps.
- [43:20]
Kevin Posobec
Well, Bo, it was harrowing to be there. It was my second time. We. We went right there after we landed, Jack and I, and that was not recorded, but we were also praying there then. And I said, you know what? I want to give further justice here and retrace the steps. It was hard, and I gotta say, I wasn't there. But you got to take into context, like, there's actual students, students that have been traumatized by this, that have sought counseling from the effects of all this. You know, school had to continue on, their classes are still in session, and, you know, life. Life goes on. But especially from a campus perspective, I'm saying, you know, so it has to go on. But undeniably, this is going to remain a legendary spot in American history. So the campus is actually struggling to, you know, there's a petition now for a statue of Charlie to be there, you know, so either way, it will have lasting effects on the campus itself. But, yeah, don't. I don't want to discredit any students, you know, what has happened to them in the, you know, narrative of today, where we have. It's an escalation of school shootings, in particular, trans shootings. Okay. That was the motive here. And you've referenced the Aubrey Hale Case, for instance, a shooting against a Christian school. Right. So if we're establishing motive and all that like it, it is very prominent, is very relevant for what we're seeing here in regards to Tyler Robinson. I want to see if we can get Jack over here, actually, because he just was on the phone with me. He has some exclusive context to give us, and believe me, it is blowing up right now. He's. He's in an interview behind me regarding the actual video of the shot. Okay, so I gave you guys the context yesterday. Yes, Benny.
- [45:21]
Benny Ray Harmony
Oh, no, keep going.
- [45:23]
Kevin Posobec
So. So yeah, I gave the context yesterday in this exclusive. So now Jack was telling me that that is what was played. Okay. Because we had the sanction to have no exhibits delivered visually or audio ly today, however, that was. So he hasn't gotten quite the opportunity yet. Let's see if I can actually. One second. Hey, Jack, See if I can wave him over here.
- [45:55]
Bo Davidson
Kevin, while we're waiting for Jack to get. No, sorry, Benny. I'm going to let you. You hop in.
- [46:00]
Benny Ray Harmony
No, yeah. Kevin, you know, I know this week has been really hard for a lot of. For specifically you and Jack, but all of us who have known Charlie and been around Charlie, I'm curious, you know, being there in Utah, how have you felt God this week in these moments and in these proceedings, the Holy Spirit, you know, how has that impacted you?
- [46:24]
Kevin Posobec
Well, I 100% believe in the power of prayer. Okay. And you know, Jack and I, we keep a pretty regimented schedule of prayer, you know, daily prayer, and we try and go to church every Sunday, you know, just like every other great American. But in particular here, I mean, we're of the school of thought where if you believe in angels, you have to believe in demons as well. Okay? So it's a heavy kind of. Of presence here. It's been very tense, kind of cold. I mean, it's a courtroom. So taking that into account, I've been praying extra every night and usually before Jack goes in. Yeah. So the presence of God has, you know, been on. On my heart as well. But, you know, Charlie said, you know, I want to be remembered for the courage, for my faith. Okay, so on top of all that, that we're here. Okay, we're here on top of everything, just being there for Charlie. You can see Jack surrounded by about 40 people right now. You know, he's not stepping back from this. Okay, well, Kevin, it just speaks to a personal character.
- [47:34]
Bo Davidson
Let me ask you this because I. I was gonna go down the road right now because I know You've covered so much antifa and, and getting into the dark web. I really wanted to cover the that with you earlier, but we only have about three minutes left. We're going to be running this amazing package about Charlie. So let's get away from the darkness for a moment. Let's get away from the darkness we've experienced this week and focus a bit on the legacy of Charlie Kirk. The husband, the father, the speaker, the intellect, the influencer that he was. And I don't mean that in terms of you someone pulling up a phone and getting on Instagram. I'm talking about true influence here. Before the word influencer was a word. Talk about just the light, the light in the darkness that Charlie provided before we get to this clip as we close out the show in just a minute.
- [48:23]
Kevin Posobec
Yeah, so Today is the 10 month anniversary and the light that Charlie brought, I believe I referenced it. Oh no, I didn't in that exclusive. But Charlie, early on I saw his videos, he provided the grounds for debate on college campuses. That wasn't present when I was there. And that hit my heart directly back in around, I want to say 2020 era back, you know, and I was involved when Jack was getting the initial interviews with Turning Point to get on and he inspired me so much to not only to not only just speak up, believe in my own voice on college campuses, but also from a Christianity angle. You know, we're told to go out into the world and preach the gospel, not just sit, sit at home or be a keyboard warrior getting into arguments. But I, and I've had extensive experience in, you know, the Kensington area, Philadelphia and antifa rallies because at the end of the day it's like, yeah, it's great to get people on content causing riots, but when you're really there staring somebody in the face, it's almost like the meme where it's like you take two dogs off the leash and then they don't really fight each other, but you can really challenge someone's beliefs in such a kind and loving way as Christians to convert them. And that's the light. BO is that being here in person does de escalate people and bring them to a grounds of neutrality where we can turn their hearts, we can change their hearts and minds. And whether that's to a certain political party. But at the end there, I personally believe that's what Charlie was transcending into. It's just going out there and saving souls and showing college students like, hey, there's a better way to live. And there's a better way to think and be educated. Critical thinking skills. That is absolutely the light that I've got.
- [50:19]
Bo Davidson
Yeah. And you and Jack and Don and Eric and everybody that's in there have been the light. There's a darkness in that room with Tyler, but there's a light that has been shining all over the world. And Kevin, I salute you and Jack for that. So thank you so much, Kevin, for all the great work you've been doing. And I want to toss now to a special honorary piece about Charlie Kirk.
- [50:38]
Will Chamberlain
I want to be remembered. If I die, everything just goes away.
- [50:41]
Bo Davidson
How would you. If you could be associated with one
- [50:44]
Kevin Posobec
thing, how would you.
- [50:46]
Bo Davidson
I want to be.
- [50:46]
Will Chamberlain
I want to be remembered for.
- [50:48]
Bo Davidson
For courage, for my faith.
- [50:50]
Will Chamberlain
That that would be the most important,
- [50:51]
Kevin Posobec
most important thing people say.
- [50:54]
Bo Davidson
Are you going to run for Senate or Congress? I'd say, listen, honestly, I think the impact we're making is bigger than sometimes some of the US Senators. I don't know if you guys agree or not. I do. But again, I'm not trying to, you know, be braggadocious, but I can say what I want to say. We have a very successful podcast. Our campus tours are sweet sweeping the country. Billions of views. I got over a thousand employees. I'm the most blessed. I have to pinch myself when I wake up every single day, but I get to be able to do this as my job. And so I never want to lose that. I always just want the highest and greatest Internet. Never, ever stop fighting.
- [51:27]
Will Chamberlain
No matter what. We will achieve American greatness. We are just getting started.
- [51:34]
Jack Armstrong
Why should you listen to to Armstrong and Getty on demand? We're not boring. A lot of news is boring and tedious and depressing and makes you angry. You don't want to live your life like that. Hey, I'm Jack Armstrong.
- [51:46]
Bo Davidson
He's Joe Getty.
- [51:47]
Jack Armstrong
We're Armstrong and Getty. We try to bring you the truth and help you figure out this crazy
- [51:51]
Bo Davidson
modern world about something, about a comedic tone.
- [51:56]
Jack Armstrong
We have a winner. Yes. Listen to Armstrong and Getty on Demand on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.