Summary7 min read

Podcast Summary: “Christians & Republicans | WELCOME JOHN GAPP w/ Professor Penn”

Real America’s Voice, EP234 — September 3, 2025

Overview: Main Theme & Purpose

This episode features host David Penn (Professor Penn), with special guest John Gap, longtime youth and community minister, exploring the intersection of Christian faith and Republican political activism—particularly in Minnesota. The discussion takes an honest, personal look at why many Christians are disengaged from politics, the mutual values underpinning faith and Republicanism, and how authenticity, individual responsibility, and community action are crucial for both spiritual and civic renewal. The episode also grapples with recent local tragedy, societal division, and the urgent need to unify Americans behind values that transcend partisanship.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing John Gap & Context

[00:37–05:00]

Background: John Gap’s experience in youth ministry (20 years) and leadership in large Minnesota churches.
Community Engagement: John underlines the impactful role of Christians in Minnesota and stresses leadership's importance.
Political Motivation: John sees a growing need for Christians to engage in local issues (e.g., school boards), warning that passivity leads to ideological shifts harmful to future generations.

“There’s a need for Christians to be involved... at the level of school boards. Those are the seeds you’re planting for your future.”
— John Gap [03:48]

2. Christian Civic Disengagement & The Myth of the “Christian Bloc”

[05:04–09:47]

David questions the oft-cited claim that “30% of Christians don’t vote,” probing its credibility and the reasons behind Christian disengagement.
John explains that many believers are turned off by the dirtiness of politics, preferring to keep their faith uncontaminated and apolitical, yet laments the consequences:
“That is almost directly what’s happening... people don’t want to sully their Christian experience with politics.” — John Gap [06:46]

3. Judeo-Christian Roots of American Law and Liberty

[07:44–12:16]

The discussion connects American legal foundations to Judeo-Christian tradition and personal responsibility.
John: “If you want to be honest about... where freedom-loving societies get their foundation, you’ll find your way back to those commandments.”
Both agree that personal responsibility to God is mirrored in the responsibility of citizens in a republic.

4. Comparing Religious & Political ‘Conversion’

[12:29–16:00]

David draws a parallel between religious and political parties: “Religions and political parties—really kind of the same thing. We’re both looking for converts... Peer to peer interaction, spread the gospel of freedom.” — David Penn [12:41]
John distinguishes between Republican philosophy (republicanism) and party, affirming a “staunch conservative” worldview rooted in personal responsibility.

5. Local Culture, Self-Reliance, and the Role of Government

[16:04–17:58]

Reflections on South Dakota’s culture highlight the value of self/governance and distrust of big government.
Population stats reinforce the close-knit, self-reliant communities outside big cities.

6. The Importance of Organizing & Personal Responsibility

[18:00–25:00]

David recounts learning from Obama-era “community organizing.”
Both stress that true change—political or spiritual—relies on authentic, grassroots, person-to-person engagement, not top-down decrees.

“The reason we have a big government is... directly related to the lack of personal responsibility.”
— David Penn [28:27]

Outsourcing care for others versus genuine engagement:
“Am I going to do that personally or am I going to abdicate that to a governmental organization for me?”
— John Gap [27:54]

7. Faith vs. Materialism and Modern Discontent

[25:00–38:20]

John critiques modern “self-worship” and “following your heart” as contemporary American pitfalls. He contrasts it with Biblical cautions about the deceptive nature of the heart.
David, a self-identified boomer, reflects on his generation’s “follow your heart” mantra, admitting its limitations and the resulting widespread dissatisfaction.
Both agree that dedicating oneself to service—be it religious or political—frees individuals from personal baggage and fear.

8. Authenticity and the Problem with Public Displays

[37:48–43:36]

Jesus’ critique of public religious displays (Pharisees):
“Instead of praying in private, they would go out... and make a display. [They] used their religious position to beat other people.”
— John Gap [38:52]
Public prayer, or performative politics, is contrasted with authentic practice and private conviction.
The generational craving for authenticity—especially among the young—is emphasized throughout the discussion.

9. Disengagement, Political Lying, and Disillusionment

[58:08–64:44]

Party dishonesty is called out as a prime reason for Christian withdrawal: “Some of y’ all give every reason for these Christian conservative people not to vote, because we lie to them.” — David Penn [58:24]
John warns against religious leaders overstating Biblical prohibitions for effect (e.g., on alcohol), cautioning against using God’s name for political ends.

10. Challenges of ‘Blue State’ Fatalism and the Role of Christians in the GOP

[71:07–84:10]

The recurring resignation among conservatives in Minnesota is challenged:
“Why should I care? Minnesota’s always going to be a blue state.” — David Penn [51:21]
John insists:
“If you don’t stand up for yourself, you are letting your children down... If you want your children to have a future in this country, you must stand up.” [78:07]
Left-leaning denominations are described as more organized and engaged, while right-leaning communities often default to “minding their own business.”

11. Spiritual vs. Civic Citizenship

[80:32–84:10]

David references pastors claiming “I’m a citizen of heaven, not the U.S.” and asks John to address the tension. John responds that citizenship in “both kingdoms” doesn’t conflict—authority and responsibility extend to both the spiritual and civic.

12. Responsibility, Liberty, and the Need for Action

[84:43–95:18]

Repeatedly, both men make clear: liberty is impossible without personal responsibility and continual engagement.
Both warn against “socialized risk” and passivity, noting the consequences: endless debt, perpetual war, and societal decline.
The biblical parable of the bad steward is used as a metaphor for disengaged citizens.
The need for real unity—across faiths and party lines—on authentic, core issues is highlighted as the only hope for national renewal.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the Christian foundation of law:
“If you want to be honest... about where freedom-loving societies get their foundation, you’re going to find your way back to those commandments.”
— John Gap [10:41]
On public displays of faith and politics:
“You don’t need to go out into the public square and make a display... Their religious position was also a political power.”
— John Gap [38:52; 39:53]
On party authenticity and youth:
“We crave authenticity now. We’re so sick of anything being fake.”
— Tanner [59:23]
On the Christian political imperative:
“If you do not participate and use your voice and your vote, that is an abdication of my responsibility to affect my community.”
— John Gap [57:02]
On passivity:
“If good people don’t participate, the people left to participate are not good.”
— David Penn [82:43]
On the need for unity:
“A faithful pastor does not divide his flock. He gathers his flock.”
— David Penn [94:30]

Important Timestamps

Background & Motivation: [00:37–05:00]
Christian disengagement stats & skepticism: [05:04–09:47]
Judeo-Christian law, personal responsibility: [07:44–12:16]
Authenticity, public vs. private faith: [37:48–43:36]
Critique of party dishonesty: [58:08–64:44]
Challenges of blue-state fatalism: [71:07–84:10]
Spiritual vs. civic responsibility: [80:32–84:10]
Final call for unity and engagement: [91:05–97:44]

Recurring Themes & Calls to Action

Join and Engage: Repeated encouragement for Christians and all principled citizens to join their local Republican Party, attend meetings, and actively participate.
Authenticity: Insistence that both faith and political action must be real, personal, and not just performative.
Leadership & Example: Leaders and the faithful alike should lead by example, not just rhetoric—embodying the faith and values they espouse.
Personal Responsibility: Both political liberty and Christian salvation rest on individuals taking responsibility—for themselves and for the broader community.
Unity over Division: The need to find and champion issues that unify, rather than divide, as party and national healing requires solidarity.

Closing Thoughts

The episode is a robust conversation urging Christians—not just to pray, but to act. It stresses that retreating from politics in the name of “spiritual purity” ultimately leaves the field to those with other agendas, resulting in outcomes that neither benefit the faith community nor society at large. True unity, authenticity, and personal involvement are set forth as the only viable path to restoring both American civic life and spiritual health.

For more resources, access show links in the episode description, and tune in to “The Final Hour Podcast” by John Gap or future episodes of Professor Penn for further dicsussion.

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Transcript885 lines

[00:00]
David Penn
This is an iHeart podcast. Cross our hearts and hope to die by these 50 countries differing so much.
[00:13]
Interjector/Moderator
In race and religion, in language and culture.
[00:16]
John Gap
It is a big idea. A new world order.
[00:20]
David Penn
Well, I know they're lying. They tricked me once, but they're not going to trick me twice. The time is now.
[00:32]
Interjector/Moderator
Foreign.
[00:38]
David Penn
Welcome back to the Professor Penn Podcast. David Penn, your host. Glad to be with you as always for a special edition that's coming to you this Friday night, 29th August at 7:30pm When I say a special edition, special week here in Minnesota. And see, that's silence. When you have no words. You know, there's a lot of talking. I have in the studio with me a minister, John Gap. John, thank you for coming in today.
[01:13]
John Gap
Thank you so much for having me.
[01:14]
David Penn
John is a, a real worker for the well being of our community. John works as a minister. He was a youth minister. For how many years did you do that?
[01:27]
John Gap
4 full time? About 13 years voluntarily before that for quite a while. So it was about 20 years total in youth ministry. And then I've moved on to other things. Online church pastoring, connections, pastoring just basically helping Christians find their place on the discipleship journey with Jesus.
[01:53]
David Penn
John's in the studio as a guest. John is a talking about a community.
[01:58]
Tanner
Yeah.
[01:59]
David Penn
That's really one of the most significant and largest religious communities in Minnesota and in the United States of America and throughout the world. Would, would, is that a reasonable statement?
[02:07]
John Gap
It's a reasonable statement. I mean I don't know how I think impacting is definitely for sure the, the, the term I would use. You know, you can talk numbers. There's major, major ministries and all over the world. I think impact is, is probably one of the biggest things leadership in, in the, the Christian community is, is so important and so needed. So yeah, it's, it's fun to be a part of everything that's going on these days.
[02:44]
Tanner
Yeah.
[02:44]
John Gap
But like you said, it's, it's interesting times here in Minnesota and you seem.
[02:48]
David Penn
To me we don't know each other well, but every time we' I always think man, this dude is pretty happy. He's pretty centered, he's pretty fun to be around. He has a good. And the reason we originally talked about getting together, which we know, all of us know it's Friday night. We just had this terrible event in Minneapolis which is kind of maybe gonna open up some other dialogue. But the reason I wanted to talk to John about coming on is as you know, I'm a political activist. The Point of the podcast is to get people involved in politics.
[03:25]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[03:25]
David Penn
To self govern.
[03:27]
Interjector/Moderator
Yep.
[03:27]
David Penn
And I'm very frank about it. I say, look, we got to do this or we're going to lose our freedom. And our freedom is to have religious freedom. That's part of our freedoms.
[03:36]
Tanner
Yes.
[03:37]
David Penn
So our original get together was. Well, let's talk about the Christian community in Minnesota.
[03:44]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[03:44]
David Penn
Because we have a lot of Christians in Minnesota.
[03:49]
John Gap
Absolutely. You know, I live in kind of an outer ring suburb in Maple Grove. And you know, some people would say it's kind of a purple colored, little bit, a little bit leaning left, a little bit leaning right. You know, I've been involved in some of the school board things going on in the Osseo school district. And there is a need for Christians to be involved, to care about what's going on. I would, I would definitely say care about what's happening in your school district, because that is, those are the seeds that you are planting for your future generations and making sure that, number one, they're, they're educated properly. But number two, that there's no ideology that is warping the minds of our young children because that is, that is going to directly impact the future of this country. So as a Christian, I, I'm probably a little bit more political, politically motivated just because I've seen what happens when we're not engaged.
[05:04]
David Penn
Now, you know, in the Republican Party of Minnesota.
[05:07]
Tanner
Yeah.
[05:07]
David Penn
Of which I am an officer.
[05:08]
Tanner
Yeah.
[05:09]
David Penn
A little bit of a fallen angel these days because the constabulary has risen up and said, no, you're a little bit too much for us, Pan. But my, from my perspective, I'm just saying that's politics. And I'll be back, like, right, that's the way it's going to be. But my, but my, my. I'm still up alternate delegate to state central committee. I'm still involved in my local district. And you're saying something that really I want to delve into a little bit because the word around the campfire in our perpetually losing party is that 30% of the Christians don't vote. 30% of Christians don't.
[05:51]
John Gap
Yeah.
[05:51]
David Penn
Now I have no data.
[05:53]
Tanner
Yeah.
[05:53]
David Penn
At all. And I say, when people say this to me, 30% of the Christians, I said, well, how do you know that?
[05:58]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[05:58]
David Penn
And they say, well, we know. I go, how do you know?
[06:00]
John Gap
How do you know?
[06:01]
David Penn
So I don't know if they're. Well, let's put it this way. 30% of Christians are not voting Republican. I don't even know what, what it Means.
[06:07]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[06:08]
David Penn
So my first question, because you start out by saying you're interested in, you're urging.
[06:13]
Tanner
Yeah.
[06:14]
David Penn
People of faith.
[06:15]
Tanner
Yeah.
[06:15]
David Penn
To be involved in their local politics. You pick the school system, the school board and those meetings, which nothing is more local.
[06:24]
John Gap
Right. It couldn't get any more local than that. Yeah, for sure.
[06:28]
David Penn
And I'm going to ask you, do you see. Because you see thousands and thousands of believers because you're in a very large church.
[06:34]
Tanner
Yeah.
[06:35]
David Penn
Are these, do you, do you have anecdotal sense that a lot of people are not engaged, who are actually coming to pray and walk.
[06:42]
Tanner
Yeah.
[06:43]
David Penn
A Christian walk, but they're not exercising it in a civic sense.
[06:46]
John Gap
Yeah, I, I would say that is, that's almost directly what's happening. I, anecdotally the sense that I get from different, different Christians and just people in the community is they get turned off. We could go in a million different ways. Some people go, you know, at church, I don't want to hear about politics. I don't want to hear about anything like that. I don't want to dilute my Christian experience with, you know, sullying it with politics. Because politics, I mean, it can be a pretty dirty game. It can, it's, it's not always clean.
[07:31]
David Penn
No, it's not a question. It can be, it is a very dirty game.
[07:34]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[07:35]
David Penn
So, you know, let me just make. Yeah. You know why? Because Christians aren't practicing.
[07:39]
John Gap
Because Christians.
[07:41]
Tanner
Yeah.
[07:41]
David Penn
Or not just people, people of goodwill. Let's just leave it.
[07:44]
John Gap
Yeah. You don't, you don't have to necessarily get into Christianity, but if you want to look at laws that work on the books around the world for all of history, most of them are based on the Ten Commandments. The, that's been the, the solid, the solid reality of truth when it comes to law abiding societies is don't murder, don't, don't steal. I mean, these are the basics of just morality that you learn as a child. You know, don't hurt your friends. Don't take your friend's toy.
[08:23]
Tanner
Don't, don't.
[08:24]
John Gap
It is the basics of living well. But people don't embrace the fact that God gave us law. God gave us things to live by because having that moral guide rail gives us a safe place to be and a safe way to interact. That's just basic truth. Then that is a part of the fundamental reason why the United States has prospered is because we have said no one's above the law, because every individual is responsible for their own self. I might be going down a different track than where we started. The idea of individual liberty comes down to that concept that we are each responsible to God for our own actions. He has, you know, you go down to go to the Old Testament, you know, Joshua said, for me and my house, we will choose to serve the Lord. It is, he was in charge of all of Israel, yet he was saying, look, God's, God's talking to you right now. You can choose his way or you can choose another way, but I'm going to choose God. I know that that's going to lead to life and blessing and opposing God is going to lead to death and cursing.
[09:48]
David Penn
This is interesting. I've thought about this two times while you were talking, which is in the part of my life where I was in an orthodox Jewish community. And when you talk about the Bible, it's called the five books of Moses are called the Torah, they're called the Torah. And when it's brought items kept in an ark and it's a scroll and it's, you know, and there's all this ritual about when it comes out because the bottom line is, and what is said is those that study it, all its paths are paths of peace. And that's what you're saying, that those rules.
[10:20]
Tanner
Yeah.
[10:21]
David Penn
Create a just and safe society.
[10:24]
John Gap
Absolutely.
[10:25]
David Penn
And you're actually, if I understood correctly.
[10:27]
Tanner
Yeah.
[10:27]
David Penn
You're saying that our current jurisprudence, the best of it, the best of it is taken from.
[10:35]
Tanner
Yeah.
[10:35]
David Penn
That Judeo Christian, Christian.
[10:37]
Tanner
Yeah.
[10:38]
David Penn
Experience that goes all the way back to Abraham.
[10:41]
Tanner
Yeah.
[10:42]
John Gap
100%. And you can, you can be a Judeo Christian denier all you want, but if you want to be honest about, about where our laws and, and where freedom loving societies get their foundation, you, you're going to find your way back to those, those commandments and, and individuals. I mean you look at, you look at societies that have embraced, that have embraced diversity. I mean Israel is one of those first nations that had a, a woman ruler. You had, you had Deborah a judge. In those pre king era, that pre king era of Israel, people were not afraid of women having authority. People weren't afraid of people from different tribes, you know, being this or that. The. So you, you can look back and you can say number one, just like Joshua was talking about, you can choose who you serve. But this God is a just God, he is merciful, but he's also blessed us. And we're going to choose him to serve because he's laid down a pattern of life to follow that leads to blessing and Peace. And if, if you don't follow that, you are going to embrace death and cursing. You were going to embrace, I don't know, it's, it's a poor road to choose.
[12:17]
David Penn
It's, it's an interesting, you know, like you say, there's so many.
[12:20]
Tanner
Yeah.
[12:21]
David Penn
Roads we can walk down off, off of this preamble. But the, the Christians, in your experience.
[12:30]
Tanner
Yeah.
[12:31]
David Penn
That are not politically active. First of all, let me just say I've said on the podcast many times, yeah, religions and political parties, really kind of the same thing. We're both, we're looking for converts.
[12:42]
Tanner
Yeah.
[12:42]
David Penn
I want more. I want you to join your local Republican Party, find your committee, go to them and say, I'm a Republican and I want to elect Republicans. Get involved, organize your friends, your family, your neighbors, peer to peer interaction and spread the gospel of freedom. Right now we don't call it the gospel of freedom, we call it Republicanism.
[13:02]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[13:02]
David Penn
But it is based on that 5,000 plus year traditionally. And what is Christian? What does a Christian religion do? We want more Christians. We, we even have a process for converting people. Right. You get, you know, you go to the tank or to the river and you become baptized and you're born again. Well, see, this is, this is an interesting thing about Republicanism. I don't mean the Republican Party. No, I'm talking about. And that's the philosophy.
[13:30]
John Gap
That's good to, that's good to, to separate because you can, I mean we can get more into that. But yeah, the Republican Party and the idea of Republicanism is, can be different at times. Hopefully we're embracing. I, I'm a, I'm staunch conservative. You know, I grew up in western South Dakota. We, we like our freedom out there. In, in.
[13:56]
David Penn
You can have it. You got it. It's great. I've been there many times, let me tell you.
[14:01]
Tanner
Yeah.
[14:02]
John Gap
And so the idea.
[14:05]
David Penn
How long was your family out there?
[14:07]
John Gap
My, my grandparents and their parents all kind of, I think they basically moved across the Perry in the late 1800s, early 1900s. So my dad's family was there, you know, for the last hundred plus years.
[14:25]
David Penn
Close to Rapid.
[14:26]
John Gap
Yeah, close to Rapid City.
[14:28]
David Penn
Because I'm saying, because, you know, you haven't been out in western South Dakota, which I have been.
[14:34]
John Gap
It's Black Hills.
[14:35]
David Penn
It's cool.
[14:36]
John Gap
I was born and born in Rapid City. Family business was in Sturgis, South Dakota. We were a meat processing family. So.
[14:43]
David Penn
Okay.
[14:44]
John Gap
Son of a butcher.
[14:45]
Tanner
I.
[14:46]
John Gap
And you know, grew up hands of.
[14:48]
David Penn
A butcher, heart of a poet.
[14:49]
John Gap
That's right. No one's ever, no one's ever told me that before.
[14:53]
Additional Guest (possibly Tanner or another participant)
But I have a question about Black Hills.
[14:55]
Tanner
Yeah.
[14:56]
Additional Guest (possibly Tanner or another participant)
When are they going to finish Crazy Horse?
[14:58]
John Gap
Oh, man, that, that's been going on since I was a kid. I was out there in the summer of 23 and it's, it's gotten somewhere. But like, we took a whole mountain in the early 1900s and carved out four presidential faces with the little amount of technology that we had. You know, we just had dynamite and pickaxes back then, and now we've got Crazy Horse. It's not nearly as grand. It has taken so long.
[15:30]
Additional Guest (possibly Tanner or another participant)
So long.
[15:31]
John Gap
So long. It, it is taking form. It's. It's taking shape, but it is the longest process. I don't know. I don't know what's going on. I don't know who's in charge of that.
[15:40]
Additional Guest (possibly Tanner or another participant)
But me and my friends are convinced they messed up and they're too scared to come forward and say, hey, do this tander.
[15:47]
John Gap
That sounds right.
[15:48]
David Penn
That's.
[15:49]
John Gap
I, I would not be surprised at all.
[15:52]
Tanner
Yeah.
[15:52]
John Gap
Oh, this is. That was actually the wrong mountain.
[15:55]
David Penn
Yeah. Starting to sound like surgery on the wrong leg anyhow. But, you know, if you haven't been out in western South Dakota or into Dakotas.
[16:04]
Tanner
Yeah.
[16:06]
David Penn
I'm not saying there isn't civilization there, but it's a group of people that are living much closer to the land, much more self reliant, much more in harmony with nature.
[16:16]
Tanner
Yeah.
[16:17]
David Penn
Because guess what? Big government kind of. Oh, hey, South Dakota. How many people live there? 800,000 people.
[16:23]
John Gap
Oh, not even, not even. I think, I mean, Rapid City's the whole state. The whole state. Well, I, I mean, as the last I heard, it was maybe 500,000.
[16:34]
David Penn
The whole state of South Dakota.
[16:35]
John Gap
State of South Dakota. I mean, you got rapid City with 100, 125 in the area. You've got Sioux Falls with 200, 250. I, I could be using old data and I've been in Minnesota since 1999.
[16:49]
Additional Guest (possibly Tanner or another participant)
But looked it up real quick.
[16:52]
John Gap
Tell me, Tanner.
[16:53]
Additional Guest (possibly Tanner or another participant)
It's just short of a million.
[16:55]
Interjector/Moderator
Really.
[16:55]
John Gap
The whole South Dakota, my state has, has been awesoming.
[16:58]
David Penn
That's great.
[16:59]
John Gap
Well, and whenever there's freedom, there is a reason to procreate and be part of the, part of the land. And there's more reasons to stay for, for the local population. I, I mean, I love, I love South Dakota. I, I know multiple people that have moved from Minnesota to South Dakota. I've got friends who live on both sides of the state.
[17:20]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
Hey there. I'm Mary Kathryn Hamm.
[17:22]
Carol Markowitz
And I'm Carol Markowitz. We've been in political media for a long time.
[17:26]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
Long enough to know that it's gotten, well, a little insane.
[17:29]
Carol Markowitz
That's why we started normalely a podcast for people who are over the hysteria and just want clarity.
[17:35]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
We talk about the issues that actually matter to the country without panic, without yelling, and with a healthy dose of humor.
[17:42]
Carol Markowitz
We don't take ourselves too seriously, but we do take the truth seriously.
[17:46]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
So if you're into common sense, sanity, and some occasional sass, you're our kind of people. Catch new episodes of Normally every Tuesday.
[17:53]
Carol Markowitz
And Thursday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen.
[18:00]
David Penn
We were just talking about one of those people last night. I had. We had. I have a.2 times a month I'm having political meetings.
[18:07]
Tanner
Yeah.
[18:08]
David Penn
Here in my district, SD45. Because I'm a community organizer like Barack Obama.
[18:14]
Tanner
Oh, wow.
[18:15]
John Gap
It's proud tradition.
[18:16]
David Penn
I remember. Well, I just remember when he showed up on the cmi, like, laughing about it, because they go, yeah, community organizer.
[18:21]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[18:21]
David Penn
What is that?
[18:22]
Tanner
Yeah, exactly.
[18:23]
David Penn
Now I know why they won.
[18:24]
Tanner
Oh, yeah.
[18:25]
David Penn
Because they went out and organized the community to be politically involved, Engaged.
[18:29]
Tanner
Yep.
[18:30]
David Penn
And he became President of the United States because of that. Well, many other factors, but part of it was at least the story.
[18:36]
Tanner
Yeah.
[18:37]
David Penn
That he was doing the. But somebody did the organizing. Somebody did it.
[18:40]
Interjector/Moderator
Yep.
[18:41]
David Penn
And so what I believe is that as go back to. I believe that religions and political parties, we create this difference because it's convenient for us, but I don't see a lot of difference. I really don't.
[18:55]
John Gap
Sure.
[18:55]
David Penn
I mean, you're out in your church, Right. And you. Because you believe that if people join your church and submit themselves to a walk of faith.
[19:04]
John Gap
Yes.
[19:04]
David Penn
Their life will be benefited.
[19:06]
John Gap
Absolutely.
[19:07]
David Penn
So you want. You're out there talking to people and trying to get them to take that step.
[19:12]
John Gap
Absolutely. I. I want to be. Build the kingdom of heaven. I want to build the kingdom of God. And. And I know that when people have that relationship and find that connection with God, their lives will be better. And that's going to influence people around them. That's, you know, in. In my, My viewpoint, the more people that I can reach and can set free from. From the bondage of, you know, I'm gonna say sin, but, you know, what is. What does that look like from, you know, alcohol abuse, from depression, from anything that really ails a life. I. I believe those answers are found in God.
[19:59]
David Penn
I Believe that the healing of those.
[20:02]
John Gap
Things, the healing of those things are found in a relationship with Jesus. And if I can help people find Jesus more and then they can help people find Jesus, I believe that not only will more people have that relationship with God and have eternity sorted out, but it's also going to make a better community. You're going to find less issues that they've escaped from that people who are saved from. No, perfect people, obviously, but the more people find God and have that relationship with Jesus and let him help them work through those issues, you're going to find a better city, a better community to live in. You're going to find a better state to live in. All of that I believe is connected, you know, but I, I feel like the modern life is a process of self worship and justifying the reason that I should follow my, my cravings, my desires, my this and that. You know, that's a, that's a little bit synonymous with American life over the last 40, 50 years, which is to, you know, follow your heart, you know, but the Bible says above all else, the heart is evil, you know, because it seeks to satisfy itself.
[21:32]
David Penn
Man, you know, we'll just stop right there. You know, when I was young, because when he says last 40, 50 years, kind of an indictment of my generation, the boomers. Well, and you know, we were born into the lap of luxury and safety. Our parents had fought and died.
[21:51]
Tanner
Yeah.
[21:51]
David Penn
Or had lived through that experience of World War II.
[21:54]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[21:55]
David Penn
I was born in the 50s, so I was right there on the front lines. I mean, I know how this went down.
[22:00]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[22:00]
David Penn
And follow your heart, listen to your heart was the watchword of the generation. And then.
[22:06]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[22:06]
David Penn
You know, somewhere along the line I said, wait a second, wait, wait, wait, wait a second. That's not correct.
[22:13]
John Gap
No.
[22:14]
David Penn
But I had to go through my own hair because I was caught up in the zeitgeist of my time.
[22:19]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[22:20]
David Penn
And nobody was pushing back on my generation.
[22:23]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[22:24]
David Penn
That we, we were so pampered. Now I'm gonna say if you listen to me and you're a boomer and your mother and father push back on you. God bless you. You're so lucky.
[22:32]
Interjector/Moderator
Great.
[22:33]
Tanner
Yeah.
[22:33]
David Penn
But I didn't see a lot of it.
[22:34]
Tanner
Yeah.
[22:35]
David Penn
Because I mean, I was. Came of age in the 60s and in the 70s and it was any. Anything goes. Anything goes. Right. It's. You're free. That was freedom. So, you know, politically, what is this generated? Well, it's generated a lot of potential converts to Christianity because there's a lot of people that are very unhappy.
[22:58]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[22:59]
David Penn
We say that men live lives of quiet desperation, you know, and they do. Mm. Women are confronted with the pace of change.
[23:09]
Tanner
Yeah.
[23:10]
David Penn
And pressures on them. That is, you know, just me thinking about it makes me. I mean, you know, I've got. I have four daughters. I have a mother.
[23:20]
Tanner
Yep.
[23:21]
David Penn
I'm in a. Four daughters. That means I have. You are partners.
[23:23]
Tanner
Yeah.
[23:24]
David Penn
Right. So, you know, the point I'm bringing out is, you know, I'm. I'm aware of the suffering of women trying to sort through.
[23:31]
Tanner
Yeah.
[23:31]
David Penn
What modernity has offered them.
[23:34]
John Gap
No doubt about it.
[23:35]
David Penn
And so these. There's. Well, so in my, My. The tie for me between what you're doing and what I'm doing. Let me just.
[23:42]
John Gap
And I, you know, get back to that.
[23:44]
Tanner
Yeah.
[23:44]
David Penn
Personally.
[23:45]
Tanner
Yeah.
[23:46]
David Penn
You're talking about, you know, following your own heart. Okay. I did it. And then I had that moment where I go, wow.
[23:54]
Tanner
Yeah.
[23:54]
David Penn
That's not working. And I, you know, I started a long process of change which accelerated as I got older because the time is running out.
[24:03]
John Gap
Yeah, it is.
[24:05]
David Penn
And then I realized in 2020 that my country was really in a rough spot. And I decided to dedicate myself to local politics, which means I gave over. I was no longer self concerned.
[24:22]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[24:22]
David Penn
I became community focused about the well being of my fellow citizens, about bringing forth a better community. Same thing you're doing.
[24:33]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[24:34]
David Penn
So fishers of men, so to speak.
[24:36]
John Gap
Absolutely.
[24:36]
David Penn
And you know what happened? All my baggage dropped. I mean, as soon as I. I still have enormous problems in my life and they mean nothing to me because I don't it. How those things resolve themselves is not in my hands. And however they resolve themselves, I stay focused on what I want to do and what I know I'm here to do. So I've had this tremendous baggage drop. I don't have fear like I used to.
[25:00]
Tanner
Yeah.
[25:01]
David Penn
I'm not self concerned like I used to. My health is better. I'm spreading. Good. And when people oppose me, I just look at them like you're opposing me.
[25:10]
Tanner
Yeah.
[25:11]
David Penn
Wow. Please be careful. I don't recommend you because I know I'm doing good things right all the time.
[25:17]
Interjector/Moderator
Yep.
[25:18]
David Penn
And I. And in people. I mean, I can say that now. I've been practicing this for many decades.
[25:23]
Tanner
Yeah.
[25:24]
David Penn
And I've reached a point where I know good and bad and I know what I'm doing is good.
[25:28]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[25:28]
David Penn
And I want to do it more. And I pray for the strength to do more.
[25:32]
John Gap
Absolutely.
[25:33]
David Penn
I don't pray for the strength to get rich. I don't pray for the strength to be popular. I don't want to be famous. I just want to do good. That's very familiar sounding to you, is it?
[25:42]
John Gap
Is it is, absolutely.
[25:44]
David Penn
So I'm saying that the Republican ism.
[25:47]
John Gap
Yes. The process, for sure.
[25:50]
David Penn
And walking in a Christian walk.
[25:52]
Tanner
Yep.
[25:53]
David Penn
Have some similarities. Do you agree with me about that?
[25:55]
John Gap
100, 100%. And I think that comes back down to kind of what I was starting with is individual responsibility. Republicanism is, and I would say a Christian faith is individual responsibility. As a Christian, I can't do this on my own. So I'm looking to Jesus. I can't, I can't be good enough, holy enough, whatever, enough, whatever qualifications that I have in myself, they're not enough. And I need, I need Jesus. So, but that's an individual decision and a responsibility to, to understand who I am and what I bring to the table of this world. And so when I bring that to Jesus, that is my choice as a Republican, as a, as a conservative, that individual responsibility is that I am responsible for my own actions and I'm responsible for my own outcomes. I am responsible for what I do with my life, what I do with my wealth, what I do with my time. Those are all my responsibility. How, how am I treating. And I'll bring, bring my Christian viewpoint into the, the probably Republicanism connection is do I leave, do I leave my ability to affect people who are disaffected, whether it's orphans, widows, the homeless, those that need to be clothed, those that need to be fed, the sick, the sick. Do I leave that? Do I pay other people to do that? Or am I going to engage in that personally and, and, and take that relationship with those people that I come across? Am, am I going to do that personally or am I going to abdicate that to a governmental organization to do it for me?
[28:13]
David Penn
Outsourcing.
[28:14]
John Gap
Outsourcing. And I would say one is very genuine and the other is pretty isolated and insulated from the actual operation.
[28:28]
David Penn
Transactional. Yeah, very transactional. You know, I, I, I just want to comment that the reason we have a big government is in my opinion, directly related to the lack of personal responsibility. The, the willingness to give up that self governance because Security. Safety.
[28:52]
John Gap
Safety.
[28:52]
David Penn
Right. Y, that's correct. But, but you know, the interesting thing.
[28:55]
John Gap
Is Sam will keep me, keep me safe.
[28:58]
David Penn
Lack of faith. Yeah, it's a, it's the government is in people's life where traditional faith once dwelt.
[29:05]
Tanner
Yeah.
[29:06]
David Penn
And what we do on the podcast is I Say, okay, no, we live in modernity. I'm not anti science.
[29:12]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[29:13]
John Gap
But I enjoy science. Science is so interesting.
[29:16]
David Penn
I don't want to throw faith out.
[29:18]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[29:18]
David Penn
Which is apparently a big part of our scientific world we're living in right now, in our material world. And what I am. John and I were talking before we, we came on air.
[29:31]
John Gap
Yeah.
[29:32]
David Penn
About this terrible event in Minneapolis and I didn't say anything, post anything.
[29:38]
John Gap
No.
[29:39]
David Penn
And everybody's talking and I'm looking at X and I'm getting more and more angry.
[29:44]
Tanner
Yeah.
[29:44]
David Penn
And you know, everybody's saying, pray. Okay, great. So I said to John, I wonder if any of these people know there's a way to pray. Like there's, there's. Oh, no, follow your heart. No, it's not like that. There is an actual way that prayer works. So it's kind of like when I see Republican politicians standing up and they're saying, we gotta change everything. This is wrong.
[30:09]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[30:10]
David Penn
Are you, as a Republican party officer or a politician elected. Are you continuously urging people in your community to get involved in the Republican Party? And the answer is no, you are not.
[30:21]
Tanner
Yeah.
[30:22]
David Penn
Because why ever you're not. I'm not going to speak for you, but do your self inventory.
[30:26]
John Gap
Sure.
[30:26]
David Penn
Because these people are listening to us. Right?
[30:28]
Tanner
Yeah.
[30:28]
David Penn
And they know that. They don't do that. And okay. I'm not going to get judgmental. But in a very similar way.
[30:35]
Tanner
Yeah.
[30:36]
David Penn
When you get on air as a politician, you say, we need to pray. Why don't you teach people how to pray?
[30:41]
Tanner
Yeah.
[30:42]
David Penn
Which would require. What? You'd have to know how to do it yourself first.
[30:45]
John Gap
Yeah. You'd have to believe it.
[30:48]
David Penn
Oh, that's, that's striking. Right to the heart of the matter.
[30:50]
John Gap
You would, you would have to. Your, your faith wouldn't be simply a, a political tool or an alignment.
[30:59]
David Penn
Do you see that in politicians?
[31:01]
John Gap
Sure.
[31:01]
Tanner
Oh yeah.
[31:02]
David Penn
You see people wrapping their unholy agendas in the cloth of faith.
[31:07]
John Gap
Always. Not always. Always is the wrong word.
[31:12]
David Penn
Frequently.
[31:12]
John Gap
Frequently you can. I mean, because it's a trite, it's a, it's what you have to do to satisfy a certain portion of the, the population, especially your party. You, you need to acknowledge whether it's authentically or not, that, that there's a spiritual side of it. Whether or not you actually know how to engage in that, you know, that's to be seen. But.
[31:44]
Tanner
Oh yeah.
[31:44]
John Gap
That obviously, I mean, politics at a certain level is a lot of showmanship and you know.
[31:54]
David Penn
Yeah. Well, I'm personally opposed to that I agree. So for all the politicians that are listening.
[31:58]
Tanner
Yeah.
[32:00]
David Penn
You're all welcome to come in here.
[32:01]
Interjector/Moderator
Yep.
[32:02]
David Penn
You're all welcome to be given the same respect I'm giving John. We just had on this week. Representative Mike Weiner.
[32:09]
Tanner
Yep.
[32:10]
David Penn
We had a very nice conversation. We started to push on each other a little bit, respectfully.
[32:15]
John Gap
That's good, though. That's how you sharpen people.
[32:18]
David Penn
It was a very well distributed podcast. A lot of people have listened to it. We're moving the needle forward. But my point is, you're all welcome to come in here, but when you come in here, I only have one requirement. You don't have to agree with me. Don't lie to me.
[32:34]
Tanner
Yeah.
[32:35]
David Penn
And if you're lying to yourself.
[32:37]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[32:38]
David Penn
Probably you're going to lie to me and then we're going to have a rub. And I, I was actually thinking, looking at all the posting on this terrible event this week. Tanner.
[32:46]
Tanner
Yeah.
[32:46]
David Penn
That there could be a miracle and everyone could just come together because we just all woke up and said, wow, look at what's going on here.
[32:53]
Tanner
Yeah.
[32:56]
John Gap
Don't I, you know, there you can, you can look into this and that of 9 11. But the post 9 11America was really enjoyable to be in because there was all of a sudden one vision of, you know, I don't care what political side I'm on and I'm not talking about in between politicians, I'm talking about in the community. It was, there was a unifying effect on America for at least a short while that, that was interesting to experience. I mean, I was, I was still in college at that time. And it was. But, you know, the problem is then you can get, you can understand and, and remember all the times that politicians say never let a, a disaster go unused. You know, never, never, never let a crisis go away. There it is. There it is. Never let a crisis go to waste.
[33:58]
David Penn
That was actually attributed first to Rahm Emanuel, who at the time was the I. He was working in the Obama administration. He would be.
[34:07]
John Gap
Ended up being for a while.
[34:08]
David Penn
Well, he was, I think, chief of staff and then he ended up being the mayor of Chicago.
[34:13]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[34:14]
David Penn
And then you went back and you know who originally said that allegedly was Winston Churchill.
[34:18]
Tanner
Yeah.
[34:18]
David Penn
Who created crises.
[34:21]
John Gap
Sure.
[34:22]
David Penn
For example, Hitler didn't want to go to war with England and he viewed that there was a simpatico between the German people and the British people. Which is not crazy because. No, of course, the, the King of England, if you listen to me, speaks fluent German and it's A German family. So there is a tie there.
[34:44]
John Gap
And Windsor is not their original name.
[34:47]
David Penn
That is correct. And so the. The German Air Force was not bombing population centers. And, you know, you know, Churchill said, boy, if we could get the Germans to bomb London and, you know, bomb, you know, cities and kill civilians, really.
[35:08]
John Gap
Crystallize the resolve, we could get the.
[35:10]
David Penn
Americans to join the war. So he sent the RAF Bomber Command into bombing German cities at night. Night raids killed thousands of people. And Hitler was going, why are you doing this? Please don't do this. Please stop. And of course, he didn't stop. And it actually had the effect. Hitler changed his air strategy. They stopped bombing the airfields and the radar stations. They started bombing the civilian centers. And it did galvanize a lot of support for war here in the United States. So, you know, creating crises and using crises. And here we had a crisis here. And, you know, my only comment is, part of me just doesn't want to say very much because personally, just when we have tragedy in my family.
[35:59]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[36:00]
David Penn
We pull inward.
[36:01]
Tanner
Yeah.
[36:02]
David Penn
It's not a public event, and we've had tragedy.
[36:05]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[36:05]
David Penn
So it's a little strange to me because I do come from a religious community. We don't politicize.
[36:13]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[36:13]
David Penn
What's going on.
[36:14]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[36:15]
Tanner
Yeah.
[36:15]
David Penn
At least that's the goal. That's how I was raised.
[36:17]
Interjector/Moderator
Right. Right.
[36:18]
David Penn
So when I see all this dialogue. I was watching MSNBC driving in this morning. I always turn it on in the car when I'm coming in. Reverend Al Sharpton. Reverend Al. Do you know Reverend Al Tanner?
[36:32]
Additional Guest (possibly Tanner or another participant)
Do not.
[36:33]
David Penn
Oh, yeah.
[36:34]
John Gap
But good for you.
[36:34]
David Penn
He's got it. He's. He's losing his reach with the young doomers.
[36:38]
John Gap
He is.
[36:38]
David Penn
But he said that there is a civilizational crisis that would allow these kind of events to happen. So this is a man of the far left. Well, maybe not the far left, but of the left or of the established.
[36:55]
Tanner
Yeah.
[36:56]
David Penn
Order.
[36:56]
Tanner
Yep.
[36:57]
David Penn
Who is saying there's a civilizational crisis? We're saying the same. You just said the same thing.
[37:02]
John Gap
Yeah, I think. I think that's pretty obvious. But, you know, I mean, I think this is part of why Christians disengage from politics is the. The public displays of. Whether it's grief or, you know, celebration or whatever, of. Of things that should be private, you know, or if you're authentic about what you believe, you don't need to publicize it. You don't need to get up on. On a podium and speak into a microphone and have camera redistribute your.
[37:49]
David Penn
I Got a scripture that you could stand on for that one?
[37:51]
John Gap
Go ahead.
[37:52]
David Penn
If you have the faith of a grain of a mustard, Steve, you could cast a mountain into the ocean.
[37:58]
John Gap
There you go.
[37:58]
David Penn
So, you know, really, if you had that kind of faith.
[38:02]
Tanner
Yeah.
[38:03]
David Penn
You wouldn't have to beat your chest very hard.
[38:04]
Tanner
Yeah.
[38:05]
John Gap
Well, Jesus also, you know, called the Pharisees and the Sadducees whitewashed tombs and condemned them for instead of praying in private, would go out to the street and public display. Public display of prayer.
[38:21]
David Penn
You know, that is a very stunning indictment.
[38:23]
Tanner
Yeah.
[38:24]
David Penn
Of our political class. And if you're elected.
[38:26]
Tanner
Yeah.
[38:27]
David Penn
And you're listening. I want you to say it one more time. One more time, please. Can we have another chorus, please? One more time. Can we do it again, please? Talk about that one, because that is so.
[38:39]
Tanner
Yeah.
[38:40]
David Penn
Apropos of my feeling today.
[38:44]
John Gap
Yeah.
[38:44]
Tanner
What.
[38:46]
John Gap
Your.
[38:50]
David Penn
Go ahead. Come on, now.
[38:51]
Tanner
Listen.
[38:51]
David Penn
Preach it now.
[38:52]
John Gap
When Jesus. This is an indictment for Christians and politicians alike. For, you know, Jesus said, you don't need to go out in the public square and wail and. And pray and make a display. Make a display. Well, the funny thing is that. That those. Those people were going out and using their prayer to condemn others or to make themselves look better than others. Instead of being authentic with God in their own time, they had to use their religious position to beat other people on the head. And their religious position in that time was also a political power because they exerted political power in their community. Underneath the Romans, you know, they were. They were recognized as.
[39:48]
David Penn
In other words, religion and politics were not two separate things. They were one thing.
[39:53]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[39:53]
David Penn
One thing.
[39:54]
John Gap
Absolutely. So, you know, I. I think that's why Christians can shy away from politics or even talking about politics in their Christian circles or at least at church, is because they don't want to. They don't want to be. They don't want to be hypocritical. They want to, you know, have that privateness. But I think, you know, just. Just talking about this generation is. Authenticity is so important. And so if. If a political person or even a pastor or someone involved with a church, sometimes it hurts your reach to have cameras on you because you have tainted the ability to reach into your community without the community going, oh, this is for publicity, not that. Recording everything that, you know, things that are going on so you can encourage. I don't. I don't want to go too far into this, but authenticity is so important. I love it when politicians show up without a camera. I love it when leaders show up without a Camera and get involved and encourage people to be a part of something without needing the publicity of it. Obviously, I believe, and I'm a Christian part of a, a big church, and we have plenty of cameras and plenty of social media out, you know, in a lot of things that we do. And that's important because you want to be able to encourage people to, to partake and be a part of it and support of what's going on. But does your support end when the, when the cameras are off? You know what I mean?
[41:56]
David Penn
This is a very, like I say, you don't want to go too far into it, but this is something I have to deal with. We had Dan Schultz on just last night who was the progenitor of the precinct strategy. And Dan would like me to talk about political strategy on every show for an hour and a half. So on every show I do take the time to say, okay, what are we doing as a political community? And I do say, and I do believe that this separation of church and state, it's there for a reason. And the reason is, is the founding fathers of this country at that time were critics of the church because it was in collusion with the divine right of the kings and queens that were in this colonial power game all over the world. And it was corrupt. Well, what did they do? They erected a new group of priests called lawyers and put lawyers in the place of the priests and created a separation of church and state. What's happened over the 200 plus years of our country is no, we have a secular religion. It has all the hallmarks of a religion, has symbols like the flag, it has great figures like George Washington. We have history, we have ritual.
[43:09]
John Gap
American saint, Saint George.
[43:11]
David Penn
But it has a set of beliefs that are not any more grounded in the faith of our fathers, but in the scientific method. And that transition happened in the last hundred years. And so here we sit, both of us, me on a political angle and you from a religious angle.
[43:29]
Tanner
Yeah.
[43:30]
David Penn
And we're really trying to bring people back into authenticity, Authenticity, for sure. Personal authenticity.
[43:36]
John Gap
Personal authenticity. And you know, it's, you can call, call it science, you can call it whatever, but the ability, the ability to share your life. On social media. Everybody is a publisher, you know, everybody is a, a filmmaker nowadays. You know, there, whether you're filming your, your kids in the yard or something funnier, your cat or dog is doing, or, you know, your, your social cred for, you know, saving the environment, whatever it is, I, you know, I don't really. There's a million different ways to express that.
[44:19]
Interjector/Moderator
But.
[44:22]
John Gap
Because everything is publicized, everything is scrutinized, everything is out there for consumption. But the, the social cred you get for, you know, supporting one agenda or another on your social media becomes like a. A way to wave your own flag. And it's, It's. It's been an interesting revel or evolution of society, wouldn't you say? Like having, Having so much technology, having so much ability to get out there. Every person can. Can be a publisher of their own self, which is not. Not necessarily about.
[45:08]
David Penn
I hope they have something good to say.
[45:09]
John Gap
Right, right.
[45:10]
David Penn
I mean, we could proliferate goodness.
[45:13]
John Gap
Oh, absolutely.
[45:13]
David Penn
I mean, the medium is not the Medium's not the.
[45:17]
John Gap
Not the.
[45:17]
David Penn
It's the operators.
[45:18]
John Gap
Yeah, exactly.
[45:19]
David Penn
It's the operators. So, you know, it's. It's like any other piece of technology. And I'm just going to say this because I. I want this to get out there because things are politicized. You know, I've been in China a lot of times.
[45:32]
Tanner
Yeah.
[45:33]
David Penn
So you know what? In China, they have.
[45:36]
John Gap
Esg.
[45:38]
David Penn
Well, they have. They have this awful problem of human psychology because it's a faithless. A faithless materialist culture.
[45:49]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
Hey there. I'm Mary Kathryn Ham.
[45:51]
Carol Markowitz
And I'm Carol Markowitz. We've been in political media for a long time, long enough to know that.
[45:56]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
It'S gotten, well, a little insane.
[45:58]
Carol Markowitz
That's why we started Normally, a podcast for people who are over the hysteria and just want clarity.
[46:05]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
We talk about the issues that actually matter to the country without panic, without yelling, and with a healthy dose of humor.
[46:11]
Carol Markowitz
We don't take ourselves too seriously, but we do take the truth seriously.
[46:15]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
So if you're into common sense, sanity, and some occasional sass, you're our kind of people. Catch new episodes of Normally every Tuesday.
[46:22]
Carol Markowitz
And Thursday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen.
[46:30]
David Penn
Not every single Chinese, obviously, but I'm saying, generally speaking, it's a Marxist culture, which means there's no spiritual. It's material. That's Marxism. And if you know Chinese people, like I know Chinese people, you know, they wake up and go to sleep thinking about how to make money. In fact, someone like me, who has faith, they just think I'm stupid and they tell me so. So. But in that society, when you have that kind of competition, material competition, there's people that don't fit in, that lose.
[46:59]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[46:59]
David Penn
You can't have winners without losers. So guess what? They have a thing, a phenomenon in China of young men. I mean, between 20 and 40 going into schools and killing children. The same thing.
[47:14]
Tanner
Yeah.
[47:15]
David Penn
But there's no guns in China. You know how they do it? They do it with knives.
[47:18]
Tanner
Yeah.
[47:19]
David Penn
And there's. There's cases where a guy will go into a school and kill 15, 20 kids with a knife. And, you know, there's all this nationality. Well, let's take all the knives away.
[47:30]
Tanner
Yeah.
[47:30]
David Penn
Because they took all the guns away.
[47:32]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[47:32]
David Penn
So there are no guns in China, but they still have this horrible worldwide phenomenon where the disaffected could be a woman, could be a man, could be somebody that has some kind of a gender. We're seeing that some kind of a. Yeah. A different kind of presentation of self in everyday life will go into an environment with children, the innocent. That is the point of it.
[47:57]
John Gap
The point of it.
[47:58]
David Penn
And kill them. So it happens in China. So you'd say, well, wait a second, wait a second. Going back to El Sharp, something sick with our civilization.
[48:08]
Tanner
Yeah.
[48:08]
David Penn
He didn't say America. No, he actually said our civilization. So if we want to look at this as a worldwide community, it's a worldwide phenomenon. And so what are we going to do about it? So what your. Your answer to it, I think is pretty simple.
[48:25]
John Gap
My answer is Jesus. My answer is a relationship with Jesus. I'm not shy about that. You know, if anyone has any questions about it, I'm happy to answer them. Because the answer is not in self. It never will be. Because we're limited, we are imperfect, and we always will be. And that's not a crutch. That's a. That's a. That's a realization that you will find if you are honest with yourself.
[49:00]
David Penn
And at the same time, everyone's a publisher.
[49:02]
Tanner
Yep.
[49:03]
David Penn
Everyone's a star of their own life.
[49:04]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[49:05]
David Penn
And for most of us, it's going to be hollow.
[49:08]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[49:09]
David Penn
Because, you know, many show up and few are chosen.
[49:12]
Tanner
Yeah.
[49:13]
David Penn
And you have to really be in it. Like you're at Free People Radio. Yes. I would like to have millions of followers.
[49:20]
John Gap
Absolutely.
[49:21]
David Penn
We'd like to break even here, which, by the way.
[49:23]
Tanner
Yeah.
[49:24]
David Penn
If you need tires, you go to target.com we're going to put a little pitch in. But the point is. Yeah, we'd like. But how I view it is I'm going to do what I'm doing.
[49:35]
Tanner
Yeah.
[49:36]
David Penn
And if these other things come along, that's a blessing for me.
[49:39]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[49:39]
David Penn
But I'm not focused.
[49:41]
John Gap
That's not the result. You're not looking for that result. Your efforts are to have influence, to help change people's minds, but also bring people together.
[49:53]
David Penn
I get up every day and I say, what am I supposed to do today? That's it. And I just got into kind of an argument with Mrs. Professor Penn.
[50:02]
Tanner
Yeah.
[50:03]
David Penn
She said, you don't plan into the future. You're such a risk taker. And I thought to myself, okay, I understand where you're coming from. You're right. From your perspective, not arguing with you. Foul. I mean, I put my hand up.
[50:17]
Tanner
Yeah.
[50:18]
David Penn
But the point I'm, because to do what I do, you really have to walk by faith and not by sight. So whatever comes along and see, I said there's no past, there's no future. Those things are, we're just right here, right now. And so I, when we do this here, when I do this here at Free People, I'm not even thinking about influence.
[50:41]
Tanner
Yeah.
[50:42]
David Penn
I'm just trying to express what I feel I'm supposed to do. I'm not thinking about outcomes. I'm thinking about process. What is my contribution to my community? People go, well, this state's always going to be Democrat. I go, really? Boy, you know, you really underestimate the power of miracles.
[50:59]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[51:00]
David Penn
And we don't, you know, so I'm just saying. Okay, I'm going to just keep and try to meet you.
[51:05]
Tanner
Yeah.
[51:05]
David Penn
And the subject on the table is this is my walk today.
[51:10]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[51:11]
David Penn
What is going on? You're actually telling me anecdotally from your perspective, there's a million reasons why a million Christians don't want to participate in politics.
[51:22]
John Gap
Well, I think you just hit one of the biggest ones, especially in this state is why should I care? Minnesota is always going to be a blue state. We, we can have the biggest movement of conservatives outstate that we ever had. We can have a hundred percent participation outstate. But we're never going to overcome the metro vote. We're never going to overcome. You know, I, I, I hear that all the time. I hear, you know, I, I'm gonna go vote probably, but it's not gonna matter because Minneapolis and St. Paul are always gonna, always gonna drag the vote down. You know, I remember watching on, on election night this past year and, and watching some positive movement in the numbers with the, the local and state votes. Hennepin county came in and then Hennepin county came in at, at the end.
[52:25]
David Penn
Of their room and it just went.
[52:28]
John Gap
Just deflated because it, you know, depends on, on how willing you're, you're able to imagine the lengths that other people will go to, to win. If you're willing to imagine it, you know, people are going to go, what does it matter? Because the other side is cheating or, or they've got a thumb on the scale. Or it doesn't matter because there's too many people that don't have any understanding of what's going on, but they're politically motivated. And so they're just going to continually be anti red, anti Republican, anti whatever. So I see that that's not really the case at our church. My, my pastors are very motivated to talk about the issues that are going on in our country. And so, you know, every, every election cycle we take time to talk about the, the major things that are on the ballot. You know, you can talk about abortion, you can talk about this and that, but every, every big, big political conversation you can find the answer in the Bible. And so if you take that, that issue and you look at what these politicians or candidates have to say about them, you can go, okay, they, they agree with the Bible or they don't agree with the Bible. And that's our rule as a community of, as a community of faith is it's not about a party, it's about how closely are they aligned with what the word of God says. Because that's not subjective, that's objective according to our faith. Of, it's not about what I feel, it's about how does it align with the word of God. But when, when Christians try to participate and they fail over and over again, you know, there's a normal human, the normal thing is to just withdraw or to not engage.
[54:53]
David Penn
You think it's a fairly wide phenomenon in the general Christian community in this state that people are not political because if they're actually in a faith community, they are actually.
[55:04]
John Gap
It depends on the faith community. It depends. I mean there are, there are denominations out there that are very politically minded and, and, or community minded, but there's, there's plenty of denominations of, of Christianity that are fairly left leaning and for whatever reason left leaning ends up being very associated with political action and, and community organizing. Action and organizing, however. And then you see more of a silent majority in a right leaning community.
[55:46]
David Penn
That's an interesting comment. I really find that fascinating.
[55:50]
Tanner
Yeah.
[55:51]
David Penn
So if I, if I heard you correctly, what you said, what I think I heard you say was, which from my background, kind of an oxymoron. But there's a left leaning.
[56:01]
Tanner
Yeah.
[56:02]
David Penn
Denomination.
[56:03]
Tanner
Yeah.
[56:03]
David Penn
In our state.
[56:04]
Tanner
Oh yeah.
[56:05]
David Penn
Of people going to churches. Organized communities.
[56:07]
John Gap
Yeah.
[56:08]
David Penn
And the further left that community of faith is, the more politically active they Might be or seem to be.
[56:15]
John Gap
It seems like it to you.
[56:17]
David Penn
Anecdotally, again. And then on the other side of the spectrum, people that are living in a more traditional frame in faith communities, for some reason, that same level of political organization activity is not there.
[56:30]
John Gap
Well, and I think part of it is because they're minding their own business. You know, they. They're like, I'm not bothering you. You're not bothering me.
[56:38]
David Penn
Yeah, but they are bothering.
[56:39]
Tanner
Oh, they.
[56:40]
John Gap
They are. Yeah. I mean. I mean, I. Obviously, I have some political opinions, but I believe. And this is. This is from a faith perspective, if you do not use your power, and we are as. As believers, called to engage the authority that we're given. As an American, as a Minnesotan, I have the authority to vote. I have the authority to cast my one vote. If I do not cast it, I am abdicating my voice to someone else, and very likely that someone else is not going to agree with me. So my silence is not speaking loudly. My silence is not supporting anybody. My silence is an abdication of the power that God has given me. And as an American citizen and a Minnesota citizen, and as a Christian, and as a Christian, if I do not. If I do not participate and use my voice and use my vote, that is an abdication of my responsibility to affect my community in a way that should be used. So I. I find that to be a problem. I don't appreciate the silent majority, because the silent majority needs to awaken.
[58:09]
David Penn
And I do want to say to the politicians that are listening, you know, we do kind. I don't want to say we because it's not me, but. But some of y' all give any reason.
[58:20]
Tanner
Yeah.
[58:21]
David Penn
For these Christian conservative people not to vote.
[58:24]
Tanner
Yep.
[58:25]
David Penn
Because we lie to them. I mean, our party is lying constantly. If you're in a politician that lies, you know who you are and you know what lies you're telling. And this is why I say I can get along with anybody. They don't have to agree with me.
[58:38]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[58:38]
David Penn
Just don't lie to me.
[58:39]
John Gap
Don't lie to me.
[58:40]
David Penn
And it's not that it's personal. Because after all, if you want to be a liar, that's between you and yourself.
[58:44]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[58:45]
David Penn
I'm looking at it politically. Back to the issue of authenticity.
[58:49]
John Gap
Authenticity.
[58:50]
Interjector/Moderator
Yeah.
[58:50]
David Penn
Because people, I think when you're a minority party and you're trying to be fishers of men and women to build your ranks so that you can achieve your goals.
[59:01]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[59:01]
David Penn
How are you going to. Tanner, you're young people yes. You know what authenticity is all about.
[59:06]
Tanner
Yeah.
[59:07]
David Penn
You know, when politicians are BSing.
[59:09]
Tanner
Yeah.
[59:09]
David Penn
Right. Does that draw your generation of young people into the political process when you're looking at lying? Yeah, of course not. Right.
[59:18]
Additional Guest (possibly Tanner or another participant)
No. In our generation, I feel like there's been quite a transition, that we crave authenticity now.
[59:24]
Tanner
Yeah.
[59:24]
Additional Guest (possibly Tanner or another participant)
We're so sick of anything being fake.
[59:27]
David Penn
So we got a. We got this full political culture, like praying.
[59:32]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[59:32]
David Penn
About every, you know, pray, pray, pray. You know what?
[59:35]
John Gap
Just go ahead and pray.
[59:37]
David Penn
Great. Walk by faith and not by sight.
[59:40]
Tanner
Yeah.
[59:40]
David Penn
And you won't have to tell us to pray. You'll be an example of prayer.
[59:44]
John Gap
I. I would love to. I would love to have one of these Republican leaders when they have time at a podium, say, okay, let's pray. But do you think they're going to.
[59:56]
David Penn
It happens. It happens. But let me tell you.
[59:59]
John Gap
Pretty, pretty.
[59:59]
David Penn
Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Let me set you right. Because I'm in.
[60:02]
Interjector/Moderator
David.
[60:03]
David Penn
No. The Republican Party prays.
[60:06]
Tanner
Yeah.
[60:07]
David Penn
Before every meeting.
[60:08]
John Gap
Okay.
[60:09]
David Penn
And I'm going to tell you what makes me angry about this. If you're going to pray in the name of Jesus, that the meeting brings about his will and elects, his chosen and his elect, and we have this beautiful benediction and then once that's over, for the next two hours, everybody's full of it. You know what? You're really. In my opinion, and I'm very firm about this, there is a biblical prohibition about using the Lord's name in vain.
[60:42]
John Gap
Exactly.
[60:42]
David Penn
Now, people think that this is about swearing.
[60:45]
John Gap
You are 100%.
[60:47]
David Penn
I think it's dangerous for our entire community. You want fire and brimstone.
[60:53]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[60:54]
David Penn
Keep wrapping unholy goals in the cloth of Christ, because that is going to bring, in my opinion, looking historically, I think that's really, I don't like. So, you know, Republican Party leadership, you know, elected officials. If we're going to be a secular party because we have a, you know, separation of churches, God forbid, we're white Christo nationalists. My goodness gracious that some Christians might get involved in politics.
[61:23]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[61:23]
David Penn
Oh, because we got all these secularists. Secularists. As if that's not a religion.
[61:29]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[61:29]
David Penn
It is a religion.
[61:30]
John Gap
Putting your faith in something.
[61:32]
David Penn
It's an anti Christian worldview.
[61:34]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[61:35]
David Penn
Which is another way of saying antichrist worldview. So we do have a separation of faith believers.
[61:44]
John Gap
Yeah.
[61:45]
David Penn
But their lack of participation, that void has been filled by people that have a very clear ideology. And so if we're Republicans and we have our leadership man, if we're going to pray before the meetings. Could we please, please, I'm asking you, can we be serious about it?
[62:03]
Tanner
Yeah.
[62:04]
David Penn
The first step. We don't have to agree with each other. Let's not lie. Let's tell the people the truth.
[62:10]
John Gap
Sure.
[62:11]
David Penn
Now, do I know the truth? No. But I know I'm searching for truth.
[62:14]
Tanner
Yeah.
[62:15]
David Penn
That's different than specifically and with intent. Misleading the people. And we do so much of that politically.
[62:23]
Tanner
Yeah.
[62:23]
David Penn
And that is the lack of authenticity, which is turning off the young.
[62:28]
Tanner
Oh, yeah.
[62:29]
David Penn
Non religious of Tanner's Generation 100. But also we're, you're saying it's probably turning off.
[62:35]
John Gap
So it'll, it'll turn off more and more. I mean, obviously our generations grow up. But I've been seeing this. I started becoming aware of this while I was in youth ministry with different, different topics that, that come up in evangelical youth ministry. Like, I mean, I'm, I'm, I don't, I don't drink alcohol. That's just my personal experience and what I've seen. And it doesn't, it doesn't lead me to go, I want, I want to have this in my life. However, if you start teaching your youth that, that drinking alcohol is a sin and you know God is gonna strike you down with a, with a drunk driver or you're gonna be a drunk driver and you know God's gonna do this or what that to you because of, you know, this activity. Well, it's not because of your, you know, that God's doing it to you. It's poor choice on your part. But if a high schooler goes to a party and has a beer and God doesn't strike them down immediately because they touched alcohol, you're going to start to think that either you're a youth leader or God is a liar and you start lying on behalf of someone else. Again, I think that alcohol is generally, for me, it's not part of my life. But to tell someone that, you know, it's a sin in God's eyes. This isn't what the podcast is about, obviously, but when we continue to use God's name to say something that God hasn't said, you will have bad results. I think that's, that's where I'm trying to get.
[64:35]
David Penn
I think that was very aptly said. And if that's all this podcast is about and we could just move the ball up the field 1 yard with that idea.
[64:44]
Tanner
Yeah.
[64:44]
David Penn
Let us not presume. I will not. I'm not going to speak for anybody but myself. I Am not going to presume.
[64:51]
Tanner
Yeah.
[64:52]
David Penn
That I know what God is thinking.
[64:54]
Tanner
Yeah.
[64:54]
David Penn
I know what he is written. I know how to pray. But I mean, I don't know God's plan. So I, like I said, I just get up every day. I actually woke up. Perfect example is this morning.
[65:04]
Tanner
Yeah.
[65:04]
David Penn
You know, we kind of had a hard time getting this scheduled. It took a little while and Tanner told me it was Thursday morning and we did two podcasts on Tuesday. And I thought, wow, I'm off until next week. I've been thinking because I don't have to do a script. And I woke up this morning, you know, it was like 6 o' clock and I'm. This is great. I don't have to go in this. Oh my gosh, I gotta get up and get to the studio. I got John Gap in today. I've got this program that. And then I start, then my brain engaged. What are we gonna talk about? And we're talking about, I think right now the most important issue of this moment.
[65:40]
Tanner
Yeah.
[65:40]
David Penn
Which is in times of tragedy. And I don't want to talk about it because I, I'm from that private.
[65:47]
Tanner
Yeah.
[65:47]
David Penn
But in times of tragedy. Using tragedy politically.
[65:53]
Tanner
Yeah.
[65:54]
David Penn
It's a very dangerous thing to do.
[65:56]
Interjector/Moderator
It is.
[65:58]
John Gap
I, I couldn't agree more. I think the, as a believer, I think we should engage in prayer. We should ask for the Lord's presence in the life of the victims. I think we should take stock in what has led us to this place. So, yeah, there's a little bit more private response, but I guess that's, that's the question. And maybe, maybe this is what we need to talk about. What should our leaders, how should they lead in these moments? What should be done? And I think part of it, you know, the, the aftermath is how did we get here? You know, in, maybe as a, as a civilization, as Reverend Sharpton, you know, pointed out, what's going on in our civilization that's led us to this place. But what should a leader be doing, David, with this moment? In this moment, I think our church is going to be praying for the victims, praying for those families that God brings them peace, that help them through the process of grieving. You know, I think that's, you can over spiritualize, you know, moving on. But, you know, God talks about being with the grieving, being with the people in the time of sorrow. So I, I, people are looking for leadership, though, in these times. How, how do you lead authentically when something like this happens? You know, I know there's One side of the conversation is going to say, this is another reason to outlaw firearms. You know, this is. And in it right back, the Pro 2A is going to say, this is a reason to have firearms in every church as well.
[68:13]
David Penn
It's a very divisive issue. Right. It's like so many of these other. See, and this, this. And I. And I predict. I did a little preface. I said, hey, there's no guns in China.
[68:23]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[68:23]
David Penn
And they're killing kids wholesale over there. So, in fact, Tanner, uk, uk, They're.
[68:28]
John Gap
They're having. They're having violence all over the place. And there's no. There's no guns. I mean, they have a strict laws on how. How big of a knife you can have.
[68:37]
David Penn
Hey, you know what? We can kill each other with our hands.
[68:39]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[68:40]
David Penn
You know, so. Yeah, but you're going to like this, Tanner. In China, there's so many of these knife incidents in schools that every school has several there, like forks, giant forks. They're like six foot long, looks like a fork with the middle prong taken out. It's like a. Yeah. And then where. The idea is, if there's a murderer comes in there with a knife, one of the teachers can get that fork and just. No, just pin them against the wall until the police come. Every school has that. That's their. That's their school defense. But, you know, the, The. The divisiveness.
[69:20]
Tanner
Yeah.
[69:20]
David Penn
Of every issue.
[69:21]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[69:22]
David Penn
Keeps the people separated.
[69:24]
Tanner
Yeah.
[69:24]
David Penn
There's the divide. Another. Just another divide and conquer issue. And so then those poor sufferers become used.
[69:30]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[69:31]
David Penn
Which is why I'm not commenting on it too much.
[69:32]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[69:33]
David Penn
Because I don't want to use these people. I mean, you know, never let a crisis go to waste. No, no, I don't want to use the crisis.
[69:40]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[69:41]
David Penn
So the issue is, what brings people together? I mean, you know, I know we could sit down, you could come back in a few weeks and you could talk for three hours about the civilizational issues from your perspective because you work with children.
[69:57]
Tanner
Yeah.
[69:58]
David Penn
So you understand something about this.
[70:00]
Tanner
Yeah.
[70:02]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
Hey there. I'm Mary Kathryn Hamm.
[70:04]
Carol Markowitz
And I'm Carol Markowitz. We've been in political media for a long time.
[70:08]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
Long enough to know that it's gotten, well, a little insane.
[70:11]
Carol Markowitz
That's why we started Normalely a podcast for people who are over the hysteria and just want clarity.
[70:17]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
We talk about the issues that actually matter to the country without panic, without yelling, and with a healthy dose of humor.
[70:24]
Carol Markowitz
We don't take ourselves too seriously, but we do take the truth. Seriously.
[70:28]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
So if you're into common sense, sanity, and some occasional sass, you're our kind of people. Catch new episodes of Normally every Tuesday.
[70:35]
Carol Markowitz
And Thursday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen.
[70:43]
David Penn
But to me, it's like, okay, Christians, what is going to make you get off the bench? I mean, you're not even voting. You know, I want every Christian that's in your community that's hearing this. I would like you to join the Republican Party. You're gonna say, how do I do it? Well, you find your local Republican committee. You call the head man. They're called the chair of the committee, and say, my name is so and so. I'm a Republican, and I want to help elect Republicans.
[71:08]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[71:08]
David Penn
Can I come to the next meeting?
[71:10]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[71:10]
David Penn
You don't even have to be on the committee. You just need to show up and start to hang out and figure out what's going on. We've got some mutual friends.
[71:20]
Tanner
Yeah.
[71:20]
David Penn
That. Up in your area, Maple. Because I know some of these people up there. You know, we're not names 37.
[71:27]
Tanner
And.
[71:28]
David Penn
But they're up there trying, and they're. They're checking it out.
[71:30]
Tanner
Yeah.
[71:31]
David Penn
And I know how it's going. Here's how it's going. Because they're good people.
[71:35]
Interjector/Moderator
Yep.
[71:35]
David Penn
They're trying to blend in. They're trying. See, it's an interesting process. If you maintain your authenticity, the party will move to remove you.
[71:46]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[71:47]
David Penn
Because it's not authentic. And that's why we're losing. Okay. Just that simple. Elected officials, when you are authentic, the entire community will recognize it. And then you'll embrace everybody. Because we'll find issues, authentic issues. Like, for example, religious freedom. That's a really good. You know, you walk up to people and you say, do you believe in religious freedom? And someone will say, yeah, I'm an atheist. Can I be free to be an atheist? Yes, you can.
[72:14]
John Gap
Absolutely.
[72:15]
David Penn
We're in a Republican country. We're so badass about our faith that we're happy with you being faithless. That's okay. We hope you find faith. But if you want to be faithless, go ahead.
[72:26]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[72:27]
David Penn
That's between you and whatever you're doing. Right.
[72:31]
John Gap
You and the universe.
[72:33]
David Penn
Yes, right, right. Your heart.
[72:35]
Tanner
Yeah.
[72:35]
David Penn
But, you know, when we're authentic. Well, I think what Christians have got to be craving politically is authenticity.
[72:43]
John Gap
Absolutely.
[72:44]
Tanner
Yeah.
[72:45]
David Penn
Would they not become more motivated to participate?
[72:49]
Tanner
Yeah.
[72:50]
David Penn
And how. And how do we foster that? Well, Christians, when you get into the process and you become delegates, you get to vote for who becomes elected. So you become the guy with the vote.
[73:02]
John Gap
The guy with the vote.
[73:03]
David Penn
The most important person in the room. So you say, well, the people aren't authentic. They lie to me. I don't like it. I don't want to participate. They're only there because you're not there.
[73:09]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[73:10]
David Penn
When you're there, you are. The vetting process.
[73:13]
John Gap
Absolutely.
[73:14]
David Penn
To be sure that. And what. And then you get into now. Now you're really doing politics. Because authenticity.
[73:20]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[73:21]
David Penn
Has a lot of dimensions.
[73:22]
Tanner
Yep.
[73:23]
David Penn
So you could come back now. I got a third podcast for you.
[73:25]
Tanner
Yeah.
[73:25]
David Penn
Because we've got the issues of, for example, Israel and the Christian faith and all the different. I mean, there's so many things to discuss.
[73:32]
John Gap
A good one.
[73:33]
David Penn
Yeah, there's.
[73:34]
John Gap
So we go.
[73:35]
Interjector/Moderator
We're.
[73:35]
John Gap
We're talking a lot about that.
[73:38]
Tanner
I do a.
[73:39]
John Gap
Do another podcast weekly, final hour podcast, and we talk about it.
[73:47]
David Penn
Where does the audience find that?
[73:49]
John Gap
You can go to YouTube. You can go to anywhere you find podcasts. But thefinalhourpodcast.com is our webpage.
[73:57]
Additional Guest (possibly Tanner or another participant)
And we'll have everything in the description. Guys, just look in the video description. We'll have all the tags.
[74:02]
David Penn
And if you're a Professor Penn. Audience member and you happen to leave my audience and go over to John's audience, I'm okay with that.
[74:09]
John Gap
I prefer we have both.
[74:11]
Interjector/Moderator
They. They go to both.
[74:12]
David Penn
Well, you know, the reason why I say that is I. I do. I make a lot of guest appearances.
[74:16]
Tanner
Yeah.
[74:17]
David Penn
And people, you know, we're all. We're hanging on to our audience, man. No, no. This is a movement of people.
[74:23]
Tanner
Yeah.
[74:23]
David Penn
We gotta grow. We have to be fishers of men.
[74:25]
John Gap
Absolutely.
[74:26]
David Penn
So what? And you know, in the car business, you know what they say in the car business, for every ass, there's a seat. So, you know, there's a lot of people that might like Fire kickers.
[74:37]
John Gap
Welcome.
[74:38]
David Penn
Invited. Of course. Because what we want to do is we want everyone to find a community where their personal spiritual need is satisfied at that moment. And it changes over time. Perfect example. I used to listen, and I do like Steve Bannon, and I used to listen to War Room. I never missed an episode. And I still check it out because I want to keep up because he's such a great leader, but it's not an everyday thing anymore. I was telling you before, I used to listen to Reverend Kenneth Hagin.
[75:07]
Tanner
Yeah.
[75:07]
David Penn
Every day I listened to. I never missed the day.
[75:10]
Tanner
Yeah.
[75:10]
David Penn
In fact, I bought his tapes because this was in the Day of cassette tapes. And I never got in the car without listening to his tapes. Right. Cassette tapes. Right. And I was in his community, and I haven't. I used to listen to Bob Marley every day. Another preacher.
[75:27]
Tanner
Yeah.
[75:28]
David Penn
And I don't listen to Bob Marley too much anymore.
[75:31]
Tanner
Yeah.
[75:31]
David Penn
So we go through these different phases where we're nourished by different mentors.
[75:35]
John Gap
Yeah.
[75:36]
David Penn
We don't need to be afraid of that.
[75:37]
John Gap
No.
[75:38]
David Penn
We want to embrace that.
[75:39]
John Gap
Absolutely. I think that's, you know, that's a product of isolationists, where you're afraid of other voices getting out there and usurping your voice. I think. I think we have more in common than we don't.
[75:53]
David Penn
Well, let me just make it simple.
[75:55]
Tanner
Yeah.
[75:55]
David Penn
To the extent that it could not be my voice, I will be succeeding.
[75:59]
Tanner
Yeah.
[75:59]
David Penn
To the extent that it's my voice. I look back, like, we had a meeting last night.
[76:03]
Tanner
Yeah.
[76:04]
David Penn
Every two weeks, I was saying, at DeVoni's on Highway 7 and SD 45. So that'll be September 10th, I think, is the next meeting.
[76:10]
Tanner
Yeah.
[76:11]
David Penn
And you're invited. And I left the meeting, and I thought, man, you suck tonight. Because, you know, you were so personal. Because they. The. I've had these meetings, and every time I have these meetings, the constabulary, I like to call them, sends their agents to see what I'm doing. And then, you know, I'm. I'm triggered by these people because they're not authentic.
[76:32]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[76:33]
David Penn
And they're not telling me the truth.
[76:35]
Tanner
Yep.
[76:36]
David Penn
And they're not telling my fellow community member. And I get. And then I get personal, and I thought, man, you pen, you sucked tonight.
[76:44]
Tanner
Yeah.
[76:44]
David Penn
So to the extent that I can put aside my childish ways and try to represent. Try to represent authentically.
[76:57]
Tanner
Yeah.
[76:57]
David Penn
Then I feel like I'm trying to really listen to you. And I still could get a lot better because this conversation is a spiritual opportunity.
[77:07]
John Gap
So, yeah.
[77:07]
David Penn
Tanner is going to put your socials in the. What do you call that in the description of the podcast.
[77:13]
Tanner
Yep.
[77:13]
Additional Guest (possibly Tanner or another participant)
The description below description.
[77:14]
John Gap
No more info.
[77:15]
David Penn
Now we are on Spotify and Apple podcasts and rumble and. And YouTube and on X. And we're now syndicated on iHeartRadio. So we're everywhere.
[77:26]
John Gap
That's great.
[77:26]
David Penn
We're out there. And, you know, we want to get the word out. And I want you to know you're always welcome to come back because this is just the first chapter. Right. And what. What I'm taking away from this is because we're going to. This is kind of heading towards the conclusion yeah. Your anecdotal experiences. There are Christians. You're actually supporting what people in the party are saying to me, there are disengaged Christians.
[77:52]
John Gap
Who are faithful, very faithful.
[77:53]
David Penn
Probably understand that there are powers and principalities aligned against their faith 100%. But they have decided not to engage in the political process for a variety of reasons. How do we get them engaged, John? What do we do?
[78:08]
John Gap
I think, I think they need to understand, and this is what's happened, and I've seen people get more engaged in the northwest metro, especially through these school board elections, is to see what's happening when you don't use your voice, when you don't take your authority seriously. In one school cycle in it was 20, 20, 2021, the school board had a 4 to 2, probably left leaning majority. And they pushed through some ideologies, some transgender ideologies in just a few sessions. And I mean they just, they just ran roughshod over what the community was saying they didn't want. And that's what happens when you disengage from the process of representing yourself, representing your family and protecting what you know, we, I believe, and we as a community, at our church, we believe that God has given us, united the United States of America, to do good things, to do great things, to have the freedom to stand up for people all over the world, but especially in our community. If you don't stand up for yourself, you are letting your children down. You're letting your children down in your, your local elections, in your school board elections, in your state elections, in your national elections. You, if you want your children to have a future in this country, you must stand up and be heard.
[80:01]
David Penn
Just as simple as all that.
[80:02]
Tanner
Yeah.
[80:03]
David Penn
So then how people square that circle? Because they know that, right? Or maybe they don't know it.
[80:07]
John Gap
Maybe. Well, I think maybe they don't. I think there's a lot of things that, that gets swept under the rug and is not publicized. Or, and, and maybe this is, this is part of the problem too is people are tuning out of. Tuning, tuning out from legacy media. And so they aren't hearing anything.
[80:33]
David Penn
Bob Marley is booming in my head. I hadn't thought about Bob. He's got this beautiful song where he says, most people think great God will come from the sky, take away everything and make everyone feel high. And you know, I've seen these ministers preach and they say, I am not a citizen of the United States of America. I'm a citizen of heaven.
[80:55]
Tanner
Yeah.
[80:56]
David Penn
And see that to me.
[80:57]
John Gap
Well, they're not at odds.
[80:59]
David Penn
Okay, great. Can you square that circle for these people?
[81:02]
John Gap
Well, sure. I mean, like I said, you can be a. Said you, you should be, as a citizen of heaven, understand the, the idea of authority. And in, in the New Testament, Jesus had the centurion. He understood authority. That if. If Jesus would say that his daughter was. Was well, or was it his. His servant? Either way, if Jesus would say it, it will be done. Because Jesus had authority. You, as a Christian, you have authority to cast your vote. You have the authority and really the responsibility to talk to people about right and wrong. Not necessarily to criticize and judge, but to discuss. The Bible invites us to come and reason together. Let's. Let's reason through what's going on in our community. Not with a judgmental idea, but let's get to the bottom of this. Let's find some harmony between you and I so that we can move forward positively. Let's move forward. But as a Christian, you have that responsibility to cast your vote in a way that's going to glorify God and bring peace to your community.
[82:30]
David Penn
And to the extent that you don't.
[82:31]
John Gap
And to the extent you don't, you will find yourself without peace because the.
[82:36]
David Penn
Void will be filled, will be filled.
[82:38]
John Gap
With someone else's voice if you advocate your power.
[82:44]
David Penn
Let's go a little farther. If good people don't participate, the people that are left to participate are not good. You know, that's just the way.
[82:54]
John Gap
You can just see that's the axiom.
[82:55]
David Penn
And what is the thing. You know it. You know them from their fruits.
[82:58]
John Gap
You will know their fruits.
[82:59]
David Penn
$37 trillion of debt. And my country has been at war my entire life. My entire life.
[83:05]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[83:06]
David Penn
I mean, the only time there's been peace, as I call that, is a period of rearmament.
[83:10]
Tanner
Yeah.
[83:11]
David Penn
So if we're at war and we're in debt.
[83:15]
Tanner
Yep.
[83:16]
David Penn
And that's the outcome.
[83:17]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[83:17]
David Penn
Couldn't we all good people understand that? There's the parable of the servants.
[83:23]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[83:24]
David Penn
I mean, you know, the servant that, you know, didn't add to the pot.
[83:28]
John Gap
Buried it in the ground and, and said, I'll. It's right there. I'll. I'll show him when he gets back.
[83:34]
David Penn
And what happened?
[83:35]
John Gap
He said, get out of here. And, you know, fleeced him. Basically.
[83:38]
David Penn
You were a bit. You're a bad steward.
[83:40]
John Gap
You're a bad, bad steward.
[83:41]
David Penn
Bad servant.
[83:42]
Interjector/Moderator
Yep.
[83:42]
David Penn
And so what we have here is my entire life.
[83:47]
Tanner
Yeah.
[83:47]
David Penn
This degradation of, as Reverend Al said, of our civilization. And we're not. We're not motivated as believers to do everything we can. I don't, I mean, I have a hard time with it. And what you're saying is, what you're saying in a beautiful way, you're saying that casting that vote is a responsibility.
[84:10]
John Gap
Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, yeah, we're called to, to pray for peace, you know, and, and even pursue peace in our, in our lives. And, and that, that's a, that's a good aim, according to the Bible, that, that your family would, would live in a time and in a place that, that is peaceful, but that doesn't happen on accident.
[84:37]
David Penn
So here we are, we're talking the day after this terrible event. We're not talking about the event. No, but all we're doing is talking about the event.
[84:43]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[84:44]
David Penn
Without talking about the event. Yeah, because I'm not going to use that no word because we could have this conversation. We were going to have this conversation if we didn't have this awful tragedy.
[84:54]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[84:54]
David Penn
It's the same conversation.
[84:55]
Tanner
Yeah.
[84:56]
David Penn
Because there's a thousand diseases and there really is one cure. There's only one, you know, and I agree with you about that. And you know, what we're trying to do in the Republicanism, the walk of the Republican is to get people to understand that there is a cure, but it is requiring each one of us to be responsible, well, for our own lives.
[85:18]
John Gap
Professor Penn, you cannot, you can't want freedom, to live in a freedom, a free country, without the responsibility to continue to build it. And if you don't continue the process of liberty, and that's truly what freedom is, is liberty, if you are not taking your part and being responsible for it, then you don't truly want liberty. You are wanting, you're wanting a handout. You're wanting socialized risk. Socialized. Yeah, absolutely.
[85:58]
David Penn
Socialized risk.
[85:59]
John Gap
And liberty. And freedom requires work. It doesn't happen without work.
[86:08]
David Penn
Well, you know, it was funny because for the boomers, when we woke, when we woke up there in the 60s and everybody let it all hang out, you know what I mean? Men started growing their hair long, everybody's getting high, Sex was free. I mean, it was a free for all. And.
[86:24]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
Hey there, I'm Mary Kathryn Hamm.
[86:26]
Carol Markowitz
And I'm Carol Markowitz. We've been in political media for a long time.
[86:30]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
Long enough to know that it's gotten, well, a little insane.
[86:34]
Carol Markowitz
That's why we started Normalely a podcast for people who are over the hysteria and just want clarity.
[86:40]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
We talk about the issues that actually matter to the country without panic, without Yelling. And with a healthy dose of humor.
[86:46]
Carol Markowitz
We don't take ourselves too seriously, but we do take the truth seriously.
[86:50]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
So if you're into common sense, sanity, and some occasional sass, you're our kind of people. Catch new episodes of Normally every Tuesday.
[86:58]
Carol Markowitz
And Thursday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen.
[87:05]
David Penn
You know, I thought to myself at the time, this is freedom, because that's what they told me.
[87:10]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[87:10]
David Penn
Well, actually, what freedom is for me, what liberty is for me, is discovering the natural laws and rules that are here, because freedom is being in harmony with those rules and those laws. And we're all, you know, I've had five kids, every one of them crawled on the floor and put everything in their mouth. And then you run over as a parent, go, you can't do that because they're putting it into the test tube. Well, we've had this civilization, we have just experimented with 120 years of progressivism, which goes back into the European intellectual tradition, which was anti Christian. We've experimented for close to 200 years now with this. Not to say there wasn't lack of faith, all the way back to when the Israelites came out of Egypt, because when Moses was up on the mountain, they built a golden cliff.
[88:03]
John Gap
Done to us.
[88:04]
David Penn
Right. You know, so this is not. But we've turned this into an art form.
[88:08]
Tanner
Yeah.
[88:08]
David Penn
This, this, this kind of experiment.
[88:10]
Tanner
Yeah.
[88:11]
David Penn
And you look at the outcome. I mean, I'm just saying, hey, if you're Christian, if you're a Jew, a Muslim, an atheist, look at the outcome that we saw right here in our face right now.
[88:21]
Interjector/Moderator
Yep.
[88:23]
David Penn
Oh, let's pray. You know, great. First of all, let's say that, John, you can come back.
[88:28]
Tanner
Yeah.
[88:29]
David Penn
We could just have an hour and a half on how do you pray.
[88:31]
John Gap
Sure.
[88:31]
David Penn
Because there's a mechanism to it.
[88:33]
John Gap
There is.
[88:33]
David Penn
It just is not like, oh, please, you know, like you're tugging on God's pants.
[88:38]
Tanner
Yeah.
[88:38]
David Penn
I don't think that works very good.
[88:40]
Tanner
No.
[88:40]
David Penn
And it's sad. And I learned this from Kenneth Hagin. Whatsoever you wish for, when you pray, believe you received it and you shall have it. In other words, faith is a big part of it.
[88:49]
Tanner
Yeah.
[88:49]
David Penn
So, you know, what are we going to do about this? And I hope your community listens to this, because I don't know how overtly political you get with your own community, but I mean, I'm in your podcast a little bit, but I mean, we are overtly saying, please join your local community. Community. That's where it Starts proselytize your friends, your family, your neighbors. You don't have to door knock. Now, one thing I think we. What I would like to talk to the church about.
[89:20]
Tanner
Yeah.
[89:20]
David Penn
Because you made a comment. Well, it doesn't matter. Because of Hennepin county and Ramsey County. I'm building an outreach in Hennepin County.
[89:28]
Tanner
Yeah.
[89:28]
David Penn
I mean seriously, brick by brick, person by person. I think because the Republic. We were just, we just had Laverne Turner on last week. What did Laverne say? The Republicans don't show up.
[89:40]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[89:41]
David Penn
In Minneapolis. They're not here. They don't show up. They don't. And they said, well, man, the community looks at that.
[89:47]
Tanner
Yeah.
[89:48]
John Gap
And they say, well, they don't care.
[89:49]
David Penn
They don't care about us. Well, we care.
[89:51]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[89:52]
David Penn
What can we do?
[89:53]
Tanner
Yeah.
[89:54]
David Penn
Because you're. Your church is not that far from that community.
[89:57]
Tanner
Yeah.
[89:57]
John Gap
For sure.
[89:58]
David Penn
And I've been to your church and it is not a lily white community. It's a very diverse community.
[90:03]
John Gap
Diverse.
[90:04]
Tanner
Yeah.
[90:04]
David Penn
Which is cool.
[90:05]
John Gap
We love it.
[90:06]
David Penn
It's cool. What can we do together to get into the belly of the beast and support the people who are people of Republicanism or of faith in that community? Because if we don't do that, those Christians are right. We can't win.
[90:24]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[90:25]
David Penn
Self fulfilling prophecy, so to speak.
[90:27]
John Gap
Unfortunately.
[90:29]
David Penn
So I'm just going to task. Let you think about that one because that's what I think. That's where I think the action is. Is going. Right. Where we're not. Where we're afraid to go.
[90:39]
John Gap
Right. Well. And it's possible we won't ever take meaningful ground until we do, you know, spiritually and politically.
[90:48]
Interjector/Moderator
Both.
[90:49]
John Gap
Both sides.
[90:49]
David Penn
Because another ideology is dominating.
[90:53]
John Gap
Dominating. Because it's really the only one that's. That's having a voice.
[90:56]
David Penn
I'm going to tell you something. This is going to sound crazy, but it's fun talking to you. I pray and I listen and you know, I got a. A message.
[91:06]
Tanner
Yeah.
[91:06]
David Penn
It's a very simple message. Let my people go.
[91:09]
Tanner
Yeah.
[91:10]
David Penn
Let my people go. They're my people. They're my fellow citizens of this great land.
[91:16]
Tanner
Yeah.
[91:17]
David Penn
And we gotta let these people. Need to be set free.
[91:20]
Tanner
Yeah.
[91:21]
David Penn
Of a ideology that we look at the fruits of the ideology this week right in our face.
[91:27]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[91:29]
David Penn
Besides the fact that we're at war all over the world and we're in debt and our people are ill. Yeah. We have a sick society.
[91:38]
Tanner
Yeah.
[91:39]
David Penn
Spend more money on health care than any other country in the world. And we. I think I Think what did we say? The 38th percent, the 38th country in terms of longevity.
[91:49]
Tanner
Yeah.
[91:49]
David Penn
But the number one in terms of health care spending.
[91:51]
John Gap
Not making sense.
[91:52]
David Penn
Something's missing in the equation.
[91:54]
Interjector/Moderator
Yep.
[91:54]
David Penn
I wonder what that might be. You know where I'm heading with this, right?
[91:59]
Tanner
Yeah.
[91:59]
David Penn
Oh, yeah, there's something missing. Yes. The medicine is great, the doctors are great, the hospitals are great. But there's a missing element.
[92:07]
John Gap
Missing element.
[92:07]
David Penn
Because the outcomes.
[92:09]
Tanner
Yeah.
[92:10]
David Penn
The data, the scientific, statistical data is telling us something could be improved.
[92:17]
John Gap
And I have some. I have some thoughts on that.
[92:20]
David Penn
Yes, you do. That's four podcasts. Now, if you're missing this, this is a special edition. Because what I'm trying to do is get John to be a regular member of our community. Because what I really want to do, and I don't believe in mixed messages or hidden agendas, there's a lot of Christians that listen to this podcast.
[92:42]
Tanner
Yeah.
[92:43]
David Penn
The community is getting ready to split over the Israel issue. And we didn't talk about it today because we're just getting to know each other.
[92:49]
Tanner
Yeah.
[92:50]
David Penn
You know, if we don't unify as a community and find the issues that bring us together, we're going to be ruled and we're going to be ruled by a very non faithful force. And you know, we think, oh, President Trump, you know, most people think great God will come from the sky. He'll take away everything, make everybody feel high. And what Bob Marley was saying was, that's a scam.
[93:14]
Tanner
Oh, yeah.
[93:14]
David Penn
That. It's up to each individual. We have to find the issues that unify us, not the fake, inauthentic issues that are put up to unify us. Like victory. Victory is not a unifying issue.
[93:31]
Tanner
No.
[93:32]
John Gap
And it's. It's short. Short sighted. Victory on what? Victory for how long? Victory.
[93:37]
David Penn
Victory through lies.
[93:38]
Tanner
Yeah.
[93:38]
David Penn
Victory through manipulation. Victory through fooling the people. No, that's not it.
[93:43]
John Gap
No straw house. That's.
[93:44]
David Penn
It's a house.
[93:45]
Additional Guest (possibly Tanner or another participant)
Who's the vanquished in the equation? Because you can't be a victor. There's no vanquish.
[93:49]
David Penn
That isn't. This is why. This is why we love Tanner around Free People Radio. Because this kid showed up, he was the engineer. I said, matt, mike yourself up, young man. And look at him go. Now look at you go. You know, he just comes.
[94:03]
John Gap
I love it.
[94:04]
David Penn
So you can't. If we're in a. If we're in a society, we're all American citizens. How can there be victory without a vanquished?
[94:12]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[94:12]
David Penn
And if we're in that mindset, what kind of community is this?
[94:16]
Interjector/Moderator
Yeah.
[94:16]
John Gap
Divided.
[94:18]
David Penn
And who would. Who benefits from this division? Who is the master of dividing the people?
[94:24]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[94:25]
David Penn
Well, okay. Because that's not a. That's not a faithful decision.
[94:30]
John Gap
No.
[94:30]
David Penn
A faithful pastor does not divide his flock.
[94:33]
John Gap
No.
[94:33]
David Penn
He gathers his flock yet.
[94:35]
Interjector/Moderator
Right.
[94:36]
Tanner
Yep.
[94:37]
David Penn
Right.
[94:37]
John Gap
Oh, 100.
[94:38]
Tanner
Yeah.
[94:39]
John Gap
Well, and. And you can. The flock needs to be unified in one singular person of Jesus.
[94:48]
David Penn
And we need to find those issues, those political issues that bring everybody together. And that doesn't mean we don't have disagreement. It means that our areas of agreement are stronger. The forces that bind us together are greater than the forces that tear us apart.
[95:07]
John Gap
100%.
[95:07]
David Penn
And right now, the forces that tear us apart are far greater, unfortunately. Well, you know, it's been worked on for a couple hundred years. Maybe it's been worked on for a couple thousand years.
[95:18]
John Gap
It's going to say it's. It seems like a. A long standing issue that people find themselves.
[95:24]
David Penn
It's whatever you want to put the lens on. You can go right back to the way back. I mean, I. I like talking about the Bible because I believe in it, but I like talking about it because it's not talked about and the wisdom of it is lost on those who have been secularized. You don't even have to believe in God.
[95:44]
John Gap
No.
[95:44]
David Penn
To gain from the wisdom.
[95:46]
John Gap
Absolutely.
[95:47]
David Penn
Of the book. I think it's a great text.
[95:50]
Tanner
Yeah.
[95:50]
David Penn
I mean, I went to an east coast school. We read Kant and Hegel and Habermas and we read Plato and Socrates. We didn't read the Bible.
[95:59]
Tanner
Yeah.
[96:00]
David Penn
There was no class, you know, philosophy 101. Let's read the New Testament. Nobody. It wasn't on. It wasn't on the syllabus.
[96:07]
Tanner
Yeah.
[96:07]
David Penn
Right, Right. So we're trying to get it on the syllabus. And that's why you're. Because what I want to do is try to find these issues that create so much connectivity that the party doesn't fracture.
[96:20]
Tanner
Yeah.
[96:20]
David Penn
Because it's getting ready to bust.
[96:22]
Tanner
Yep.
[96:23]
John Gap
We got a. There needs to be some repair for sure.
[96:28]
David Penn
Yes. We need a new rally point.
[96:30]
Tanner
Yeah.
[96:30]
David Penn
And that's why you're here. I just want you to know why I'm inviting you on. I don't want anybody to think I'm being tricky. I don't want you to think I'm using you. I'm coming up right up front saying I'm using this podcast to learn how we can find issues that bind us together. Because I want a real unity that unifies Republicans throughout the state so that we can have freedom.
[96:54]
John Gap
Yeah, absolutely.
[96:55]
David Penn
That's it.
[96:56]
John Gap
It doesn't happen on accident.
[96:57]
David Penn
Takes work.
[96:58]
Tanner
Yeah.
[96:58]
David Penn
Tanner.
[96:59]
Tanner
Yeah.
[97:01]
David Penn
You gave me a lot of hours this week. Thank you very much. Of course. It's great. It's great. John, thank you. Welcome. You're welcome back anytime. It's great.
[97:08]
John Gap
Thank you.
[97:09]
David Penn
Tanner's going to get all of John's socials up. Please repost the links. If you've hung in for 93 minutes, please repost the links into your own social. That's how we get the word out. We're not going to get any help. The algorithm is.
[97:23]
John Gap
It's.
[97:24]
David Penn
Well, we could get big enough that it works in our favor, but we're not there yet.
[97:27]
Additional Guest (possibly Tanner or another participant)
Yeah, not quite there yet.
[97:28]
David Penn
Not there yet. We're working on it.
[97:29]
John Gap
It's. I think we have more of a chance than Sisyphus, but we have. It's a. It's a long road to hope.
[97:36]
David Penn
Oh, the myth of Sisyphus. We're going to have to start with that when you come back. All right, Tanner, thank you very much for coming in.
[97:41]
Additional Guest (possibly Tanner or another participant)
Of course. Have a good night, everybody.
[97:43]
Interjector/Moderator
Thank you.
[97:45]
Disclaimer Narrator
Disclaimer the information provided in this podcast is for general informational purposes only. All opinions expressed by the podcast host and their guests are solely their own opinions and do not reflect the opinions of any entity they represent or associated with. This podcast is not intended to provide professional advice or political guidance and should not be relied upon for such. The content of this podcast is based on a host's knowledge and understanding at the time of recording and is subject to change any fact, presented or factual statement made by the podcast. The host or guests are generated by available mainstream media sources, social media outlets, and artificial intelligence, including grok, the artificial intelligence module of X. Although we strive to provide accurate and up to date commentary and opinions, we make no representations or warranties, express or implied about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the podcast or the information, products, services or related graphics contained in the podcast for any purpose. By accessing and using this podcast, you acknowledge it and agree with the host?
[98:14]
David Penn
Yes.
[98:15]
Disclaimer Narrator
And any affiliated entities are not responsible for any actions you take based on the information provided in this podcast. You agree that the use of this podcast is at your own risk. The hosts, guests, and any affiliated entities are not liable for any direct, indirect, incidental, consequential or punitive damages arising out of your access to or use of this podcast. This includes any damages related to the loss of use, data or profits, whether or not advised of the possibility of such damages. In no event shall the hosts, guests and any affiliated entities be liable to you or any third party for any claims, losses or damages arising out of your use of this podcast or reliance on any information provided herein. By listening to this podcast, you agree to release and hold harmless the hosts, guests and any affiliated entities from any and all liability, claims, actions, demands and expenses arising out of relating to your use of this podcast. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.
[98:41]
David Penn
This is an iHeart podcast.