Human Events with Jack Posobiec, January 1st, 2025

Summary

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Real America’s Voice: Human Events with Jack Posobiec & Charlie Kirk

Episode Date: January 1, 2025
Host: Jack Posobiec
Guest: Charlie Kirk (Founder, Turning Point USA)

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Overview:

This episode is a special archival “throwback” to the very first Human Events Daily podcast, originally recorded in December 2021. Host Jack Posobiec and guest Charlie Kirk explore the historical, philosophical, and cultural trajectory of Western civilization—from its Biblical foundations to the Enlightenment through the Scientific and Industrial Revolutions, and into the perceived moral, social, and spiritual malaise of the present day. The conversation includes spirited debate and signature banter, challenging both mainstream and conservative narratives.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

How Did the West Get “Here”?

• Jack frames the episode with a broad, provocative question:

  "How did the West go from the towering world power, the driver of progress and intellectual thought, to this sort of corrupted, backward and really decaying kind of situation that we’re in now?" (03:13)

• Charlie pushes back on conservative dogma around the Enlightenment:

  “Not everything that came out of the Enlightenment was good. That’s like a thought crime in some right circles. I really don’t care. It’s true, the Enlightenment was great for some things.” (04:42)

Machiavelli, Philosophy, and the Roots of Modernity

• The duo places Machiavelli at the root of a Western philosophical shift—prioritizing immediate, practical gain over inherited tradition.

  "Why are we focusing so much on these imaginary republics?... Why don't we just go get it?" – Charlie paraphrasing Machiavelli (05:32)

• They touch on Nietzsche’s warning ("God is dead") and Solzhenitsyn’s reflection that the 20th century’s disasters stem from "man forgot God and replaced him with ideology." (07:44, 08:21)

Enlightenment, Industrial and Scientific Revolution

• Both argue that the West’s loss of a spiritual anchor accelerated not with the Industrial Revolution, but much earlier, with changes in philosophy and the rise of science:

  "We can go back to Machiavelli... the one we hate is Jean Jacques Rousseau. Rightfully got basically everything wrong." – Charlie (14:05) "There was something that happened as soon as you have Machiavelli's political stake in the ground, then followed quickly... by the scientific revolution." – Charlie (15:09) "If we can dominate the natural world, what good is this religion?" - Charlie (15:32)

Loss of Eternity, Rise of Materialism

• The transition from medieval to modern thinking is framed starkly:

  "We essentially killed eternity... Get rid of God, you get rid of eternity. Get rid of eternity, you get rid of judgment." – Jack (17:20)

• The “religion of progress,” secularism, and scientific rationalism are discussed as new, replacement belief systems:

  "Secularists keep trying to make their own religiosities of science, of climate, of whatever it is." – Jack (17:49) "David Hume, by the way." – Charlie (17:53; remembering the critical philosopher of skepticism)

The Founders, Religion, and the American Project

• The Founding Fathers are portrayed as recognizing both the value and danger of unmoored Enlightenment thinking:

  "The founders knew that the balance between the benefits of the Enlightenment and the anchoring of antiquity was the only way that human civilization [would thrive]." – Charlie (17:56)

• Biblical values were seen as essential:

  "The American Project, basically, or the Constitution, was made holy for a moral and religious people. It’s totally inadequate for any other." – Charlie on John Adams (18:36)

Social Decay in Modern America

• The conversation moves into contemporary symptoms of decay:

  "I talk to parents... my 15-year-old is sexually active and I don’t know what to do about it." – Charlie (20:00) "A majority of young men in America are addicted to Internet pornography." – Charlie (20:14) “We also live in such a time of abundance. How do you square it?” – Jack (21:08) “They’re directly correlated." – Charlie, arguing abundance coincides with moral/spiritual decline (22:15)

Jordan Peterson & The Return to Ancient Texts

• Jordan Peterson is invoked as a catalyst for reconnecting with religious story and order:

  "He gave people a reasonable platform to believe in ancient texts and religious structure." – Charlie (23:37) "I believe every word of the Bible. Totally true, inerrancy of scripture." – Charlie (23:53)

Biblical Wisdom vs. Modern “Progress”

• The hosts find scientific and moral validation in Old Testament commandments:

  “Washing your hands before you eat—that’s one of the Levitical laws, right? These aren’t like, you know, ‘hey, this is crazy stuff’. No, really, like, don’t do these things.” – Jack & Charlie (29:17)

• The mismanagement of science as a substitute for faith is critiqued:

  "The mismanagement of the scientific inquiry into the natural world is why we’re in the mess that we’re in." – Charlie (30:48)

The Radical French vs. Conservative American Revolution

• Discussing misreadings of the American Revolution:

  "The American Revolution gets misread by modern day leftists as this kind of liberal moment... the founders never mentioned any of that." – Charlie (32:08) “You don’t have the guillotines in Philadelphia and New York.” – Jack (32:29) “The French Revolution played a huge role, more so than the American Revolution.” – Charlie (32:08)

Replacement Religions and Fragmentation

• The pair argue that secular “replacement religions”—be it climate activism, health/“the cult of Fauci,” or social justice movements—fill a spiritual vacuum:

  “With the cult of Greta Thunberg, and we see this with Fauci. These are all replacement religions.” – Charlie (50:03) "Every single time that humans have tried to create their own Bible, it has failed." – Jack (39:46)

Christianity vs. Eastern Religions

• Comparison of Western and Eastern religious philosophies:

  “The God of the west is an empowering God…a personal God.” – Charlie (43:03) "At the highest level of Buddhism, you don’t talk... we are beings that are reasoning, speaking, and communicating. And the highest level of existence in Buddhism, you shut up. It’s a big difference." – Charlie (46:16)

The American Empire and the Path Forward (Localism & Family)

• Discussions about managing societal collapse/cycles:

  “Are we going to be an empire going forward or are we not?... What do we do to reconstitute ourselves in a way that is most beneficial for the people who live here?” – Jack (57:02) “We never admitted we were one. That was the weirdest thing. It’s like, oh, yeah, we’re not an empire. Meanwhile, we’re gonna have bases in every corner of the world.” – Charlie (57:17)

• Prescription for the future:

  "Just focus local…and even smaller than that, even go back to, hey, we’re going to have ordered families again." – Jack (58:03) "We’re unafraid to make raising moral claims about the good of existence." – Charlie (58:19)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On spiritual collapse:

  “If you asked me to summarize ideology... all of it into one thing, he says, it’s that man forgot God and replaced him with ideology.”
  — Jack quoting Solzhenitsyn (08:21)

• On the dilemma of modernity:

  "We essentially killed eternity... Get rid of God, you get rid of eternity. Get rid of eternity, you get rid of judgment."
  — Jack (17:20)

• On America’s founding:

  “The founders knew that the balance between the benefits of the Enlightenment and the anchoring of antiquity was the only way…”
  — Charlie (17:56)

• On current malaise:

  “So we’re depressed, we’re upset, suicides are on the rise and yet we also live in such a time of abundance. How do you square it?”
  — Jack (21:08)

• On family and societal health:

  “We should push policies that... say as a society: hey, society works better when we have these things called families.”
  — Jack (58:03)

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Important Timestamps

• Intro & Setup (03:13):
  ‘How did the West get here?’ — Framing the episode’s core question.

• Machiavelli, Enlightenment & Nietzsche (05:32–07:44):
  Exploring the philosophical lineage leading to the modern world.

• Secular Ideology, God’s Absence (07:44–08:21):
  Solzhenitsyn’s “man forgot God” thesis.

• Scientific Revolution Over Morality (15:09–17:56):
  When science, not faith, became the West’s dominant source of authority.

• Material Abundance & Meaninglessness (21:08–23:37):
  Paradox of misery amidst plenty; rise of Jordan Peterson.

• Dietary Laws & Modern Science (29:11–29:52):
  Biblical wisdom validated by later discoveries.

• French vs. American Revolution (32:08–34:44):
  Radicalism vs. conservatism in political change.

• Replacement Religions (50:03):
  Climate, science, and activism as faith substitutes.

• Christianity vs. Buddhism (46:03–47:11):
  Unique features of Western religious tradition.

• Empire, Collapse, and Localism (57:02–58:41):
  Prescriptions for future renewal: localism and family life.

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Tone and Style

The tone is candid, argumentative, and occasionally humorous, featuring philosophical depth and signature Kirk-Posobiec wit. Both hosts blend historical analysis with pointed cultural critique, aiming to challenge both left- and right-wing platitudes while rooting their worldview unapologetically in traditional, biblically-informed Western values.

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Summary by Podcast Summarizer AI — providing clear, timestamped insights for those who want the substance without the ads, intros, and outros.

Transcript

[Jack Posobiec]

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[Jack Sobic]

This is what happens when the fourth turning meets fifth generation warfare. A commentator, international social media sensation and.

[Jack Posobiec]

Former Navy intelligence veteran.

[Jack Sobic]

This is Human Events with your host, Jack Posobic. Christ is king. Well, ladies and gentlemen, welcome aboard to today's special edition here, Human Events Daily. We're going back to the Human Events archives, way back to actually the very first year of Human Events Daily. We wanted to go back into the archives and it was recorded, believe it or not, December 2021. And we've got the first ever podcast of Jack Posobic and Charlie Kirk. And you know, a lot of people may have thought that Charlie and I, ah, those guys, they're two Trump supporters. They're too conservatives. What are they ever going to disagree on? It's just going to be a bunch of, you know, a bunch of, you know, glowy and fluffy talk about MAGA and Trump. Well, we started out that way a little bit, but then Charlie, for the record, Charlie started this. He made a crack about me being a Catholic, so being a Philly guy, I had to respond in kind. And what ensued was one of the first of many great sparring debates that Charlie and I would have with each other. I'm going to play that for you now. Charlie Kirk, the founder of Turning Point usa, the host of the Charlie Kirk Show. How did we get here? And I don't just mean me and you or any of this. I mean, how did the west go from the towering world power, right, the driver of actual, you know, progress and intellectual thought and industrialization in the world to this sort of corrupted, backward and really decaying kind of situation that we're in now? What do you think?

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, yeah, I think we've managed to hang ourselves with the rope of our own creation. I'm a conservative that's unafraid to say that not everything that came out of the Enlightenment was good. That's like a thought crime in some right circles. I really don't care. It's true, the Enlightenment was great for some things.

[Jack Sobic]

Obviously, David French is not going to.

[Charlie Kirk]

Like this podcast, but yeah, you have to be. You have to. First, the most important question is when do you think the Enlightenment began?

[Jack Sobic]

Right?

[Charlie Kirk]

That's the most important question, right?

[Jack Sobic]

Yes.

[Charlie Kirk]

And French would say that it began with like Spinoza or Galileo, when it obviously started Machiavelli. Right, And Machiavelli. And maybe if French would agree with this, I don't know, I don't want to put words in his mouth. And his own words will suffice for prosecution against him. Of his thoughts, I should say, or.

[Jack Sobic]

We should say the Frenchist.

[Charlie Kirk]

The Frenchist might say it's really important because Nicolio Machiavelli in 1532, right, Conor? Yeah. He wrote the Prince and one of the most famous lines or sentiments was, why are we focusing so much on these imaginary republics? A direct stab towards Plato like 2000 years before. And he's like, we know what we want. Why don't we just go get it?

[Jack Sobic]

Why don't we just take it?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, why don't we just go take it now. This was considered to be really unthinkable in heavily Catholic dominated Italy at the time and Europe, where tradition and order and something that came before you, that must always anchor you, this idea that you just can't be stumbling towards inevitable abyss. And Machiavelli is like, that's stupid. I know what we want, let's just go get it. And in a lot of ways he liberated political thought. He was the first kind of political theorist. Aristotle was too, but definitely in Europe. And Machiavelli is also known for his most famous line, popularized by a lot of different people, which is the ends justify the means. You hear that a lot. That's kind of like very Machiavellian. But he wasn't wrong about everything. He was right about a lot of different power dynamics.

[Jack Sobic]

So I think that a lot of people though, when they look at sort of whether you want to call this wokeism or we eventually find ourselves in the social justice era, France, of course, found themselves there much faster.

[Charlie Kirk]

Much faster.

[Jack Sobic]

The person who, here's my thing though, they wouldn't say that they are being Machiavellian. They're saying, hey, we're just trying to build a better world. We're just trying to.

[Charlie Kirk]

They're all living in Machiavelli's world, though. I mean, Machiavelli again, they stole a little from Rousseau, they stole a little from Machiavelli. Plato even talked about imaginary republics and like this idea of utopia. Even though Machiavelli went after the point is this to kind of like de philosophize this. Because I could just see people being like, who are all these people? That's fine, it's not your job. You don't have to worry about it. Friedrich Nietzsche, he saw this coming before anyone else and he was willing to write about it. Now he was an atheist, lost his mind towards the end of his life. Wrote extensively about kind of how the west needs to recreate its own values. Now it's really important because Nietzsche wrote God is dead. He was not celebrating it.

[Jack Sobic]

A lot of people get this wrong, right? He's lamenting. And you know what quote I actually just read very recently, it was one of the last things that that Solzhenitsyn wrote and he and it ties directly into this because he said and after my five decades of writing about this revolution, of course, the Russian Revolution and everything that happened and all the atrocities, if you asked me to summarize ideology, all of it into one thing, he says, it's that man forgot God and replaced him with with ideology.

[Charlie Kirk]

Sorry to steal your thunder.

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[Charlie Kirk]

I'm a Solzhenitsyn and it's so it's.

[Jack Sobic]

Amazing to see that you've got Solzhenitsyn and Nietzsche. Well, they're both looking at the same.

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Yeah.

[Jack Sobic]

And one at the beginning and then one at the end.

[Charlie Kirk]

So then Nietzsche gave. Not Nietzsche. Solzhenitsyn gave a speech. Harvard commencement.

[Jack Sobic]

Oh, my Gosh, I love this.

[Charlie Kirk]

79. Where's Conor? I need Conor around here. 76, 77.

[Jack Sobic]

Everybody needs to watch.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. So it was delivered in Russian and it was outdoors and like, rained and like, whatever.

[Jack Sobic]

And everybody thought it was going to be this, like, celebratory speech. USSR is bad. The west is good. Harvard is the leader of the West.

[Charlie Kirk]

It was the eulogy of the West.

[Jack Sobic]

It was. You have become materialistic. All you care about is the here and now. You are totally secular. You have totally cut yourself off from spiritual life and all you care about is getting your next product. You. These atomized, atavistic relationships that you have. You treat people like commodities here. And he really just came in and destroyed. Destroyed what we think of as the West.

[Charlie Kirk]

And obviously he was listened to a little bit. People were just kind of Shocked.

[Jack Sobic]

And he gets this like pitter patter of, wait, what's going on?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, And I want to find out. The year that he gave that speech was actually really important because it was right when the Soviet Union was like falling or about to fall, whatever. The point is that people were at.

[Jack Sobic]

The end was kind of in sight.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. And people were expecting a typical kind of dissident speech from another country. Right. Like I was there. It's bad. Instead it's like, no, no, no. What's there is now coming here. And we could go through many other thinkers. Nietzsche and Solzhenitsyn obviously stand out. So you ask the question, how did we get here? I mean, the cult of progress over the last 500 years. And that's not to say that improvements and adjustments have not been necessary nor beneficial to the human experience. Right.

[Jack Sobic]

Because I always hear people say this is. It was started by the Industrial Revolution.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, I think that's wrong. I think that's stupid.

[Jack Sobic]

And I think the Industrial Revolution fuels it in many ways.

[Charlie Kirk]

It exaggerates a lot of it.

[Jack Sobic]

We're talking about 300 years prior.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. We're talking about again. We can go back to Machiavelli. And then after Machiavelli you had the social contract theorists. And the one that we overemphasize in conservative tradition is John Locke. The one we hate is Jean Jacques Rousseau. Rightfully got everything, basically everything wrong.

[Jack Sobic]

My favorite part of Rousseau is when he says, you know, if we can just go back to the natural world where all the animals are, because they're in such harmony. I'm like, have you spent any time watching animals in the natural world?

[Charlie Kirk]

Right. I mean, and Rousseau was a super hypocrite and spent a lot of time in Geneva, Switzerland, doing things he shouldn't have done. But like he, he appeals to young people because super, super romantic and how he writes and he was a novelist.

[Jack Sobic]

These guys, I mean, these guys are dreamers.

[Charlie Kirk]

And he led to the French Revolution. But, but the one we don't talk about.

[Jack Sobic]

And we like that, but I don't like that. I don't like when those people are in charge.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, obviously, I mean, yeah, I mean, you get Robespierre if.

[Jack Sobic]

Yes, exactly.

[Charlie Kirk]

You actually apply Rousseau.

[Jack Sobic]

You get the actual. And remember the, even the word terrorism. Right. This comes from the French Revolution because we must institute terrorism to go after the counter revolutionaries.

[Charlie Kirk]

And look, I'm by no means an expert on this, but I've studied enough to have an informed opinion and people like Matt Peterson or Ryan Williams from Claremont would be much more articulate on this than I, but I agree with them, which is there was something that happened as soon as you have the Machiavelli's political stake in the ground, and then followed quickly, not by the Industrial Revolution, by the scientific revolution.

[Jack Sobic]

Yes.

[Charlie Kirk]

And this is the more important thing that we have to focus on, which is science becoming an actual thing, which is largely thanks to Sir Francis Bacon, who, by the way, was a Christian. It's debated, but he was a Christian. Sir Isaac Newton, who was a devout Christian, wrote more about the prophecies of Isaiah than of actually the natural world. But then you had philosophers that started to wrestle with this question, well, then, if we can dominate the natural world, what good is this religion? I'm talking about people like Jeremy Bentham, John Stuart Mill, who weren't about atheists, but then eventually the man himself, who was, you know, obviously the most famous atheist, basically, who led to all the rest of them. My goodness, I'm forgetting his name. He's from England. I'll think of it in a sec, but. Sorry, go ahead.

[Jack Sobic]

Not Mill, but.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, no, not, not Mill or Bentham. I'll think of it in a sec.

[Jack Sobic]

Yeah, but anyway, so then you get. And of course you have the new atheist today, right.

[Charlie Kirk]

But Hitchens and all these guys and Harris, they all come from this tradition, right.

[Jack Sobic]

And so. And Dawkins. And so you have this situation then where it is the here and now. It's the natural world. It's what's going on. What's in front of my face is the only thing that matters. Right. And there's. This is summed up. There's a great meme that's been going around that I love. It's. It's sort of the modernist thinking versus medieval thinking. Have you seen this one?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes.

[Jack Sobic]

And it's. Modernist thinking is birth, life. And like there's like this huge compendium of the spectrum of life.

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And.

[Jack Sobic]

And then death is like another line and it just says question mark afterwards, where versus medieval thinking was birth, then life very quickly, or actually first is knit in my mother's womb. Amazing. Birth, then life, which are kind of like equal, and then eternity in heaven or hell. And that's this huge broad, never ending stretch. So the we.

[Charlie Kirk]

I remember you said that. Yes.

[Jack Sobic]

We essentially killed eternity. Right. And that's. That is what Nietzsche was talking about. You get rid of God, you get rid of eternity. Get rid of eternity, you get rid of judgment. Yes, of judgment. Then all you're going to be worrying about is Number one, the here and now, you don't care about what happens afterwards. But you also have this situation where. And you can see this throughout the world today, where it's like secularists keep trying to make their own religiosities of. Of science.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes.

[Jack Sobic]

Of the climate of whatever it is. Right. Whatever's veganism.

[Charlie Kirk]

David. David Hume, by the way.

[Jack Sobic]

Yeah, David Hume. There you go.

[Charlie Kirk]

It's so obvious. I can't remember every name, but I remember a lot about him. So you're right. And so this is where the founders were brilliant and they weren't taken seriously. So the founders knew that the balance between the benefits of the Enlightenment and the anchoring of antiquity was the only way that human civilization.

[Jack Sobic]

Right. Because you get. And this is why it's so great that you have. You have both Jefferson and Hamilton who are basically there. They're kind of. So Jefferson goes all in on the French Revolution, and then Hamilton sort of like, yeah, you know what I mean?

[Charlie Kirk]

I mean, the letters between him and Madison are the most.

[Jack Sobic]

Right. And then you've got Hamilton out there saying, no, I want a king, I want a monarchy on all of this. And so between the two, you do get that.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. And Madison split the middle. The most interesting letters are the most famous. Edmund Burke and Thomas Paine going back and forth on this, right, Where Thomas Paine was just like a revolutionary shopper. He liked the American Revolution, French Revolution. Edmund Burke was like, I understand the American Revolution. Hated the French Revolution, but. So let's take John Adams, for example, right? Big John Adams fan. He didn't write the US Constitution, but I was heavily instrumental in the American founding. The guy spoke fluent Hebrew. He could read Hebrew. There's a reason why he said that the American Project, basically, or the Constitution, was made holy for a moral and religious people. It's totally inadequate for the people of any other.

[Jack Sobic]

Right. Because you would have had. In the society they were writing for, you had a society that was based around the Bible.

[Charlie Kirk]

In many ways, it was the centerpiece of all existence.

[Jack Sobic]

You know, anything. Any dispute, you would go back. You're quoting it. Many of the original meetings are held in church halls for the revolution. Everybody sort of knew this was generally the shared set.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. And so, yeah, let's just. Let's just be practical about this, though, for our audience. Right? So the Overton window's a great way to look at this. But like in 1800s America, people say, oh, it's terrible. There was slavery. Even though it was on the way out, it was terrible. Women couldn't vote. Even though that was, you know, being solved and fixed. But yes, there were adjustments that obviously need to be made. But on the other side, what are the negatives over social progress in 200 years? I'll tell you how, I'll tell you some of them where I talk to parents and they tell me, yeah, my 15 year old is sexually active and I don't know what to do about it.

[Jack Sobic]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

Or how about this where like a majority of young men in America are addicted to Internet pornography.

[Jack Sobic]

Billie Eilish just came out.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah.

[Jack Sobic]

Said that she's been. I don't think she said she was addicted, but she.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, she did what she said starting at age 11.

[Jack Sobic]

11.

[Charlie Kirk]

And by the way, that's why she's been so quasi demonic and all of her.

[Jack Sobic]

And she's been watching pornography since 11 years.

[Charlie Kirk]

And we know what it does to the brain. We know what it does to the individual. We know it. What it does to, you know, neuroplasticity. We know all those things. And so this was the founding father's prediction, which is. And Thomas Jefferson talked about it, which is, okay, you're gonna have the ability to do all this stuff. You'll have Tinder, you'll have, you'll have onlyfans. Yeah, exactly. All this stuff. What's to stop you? And basically modernity says nothing. Go for it. Yeah. You get the most depressed, suicidal, drug addicted, alcohol, obese, least productive miserable generation in history.

[Jack Sobic]

And it's amazing too because we live even, you know, with everything else going on right now. Can you think of a society that's more affluent than ours?

[Charlie Kirk]

But that. Yeah, that's, that's where materially. And now if you want to go down to like where based conservatives are, we're like so what?

[Jack Sobic]

Exactly.

[Charlie Kirk]

And that's. All of a sudden the thought crumbs. Now I'm not, I'm not dismissing grocery stores full of food. I think that's a beautiful thing.

[Jack Sobic]

I love things. How do you have grocery stores full of food?

[Charlie Kirk]

Which is a great thing you have.

[Jack Sobic]

And obviously the, you know, take Covid out of the of the equation. We have a jobs market that is generally very, very good. We have a standard of living that's be. And the average middle class person today has things that the monarchs.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well yeah, how about like electricity, like IB could drive. Just like I have a headache. Good luck trying to sell that.

[Jack Sobic]

At the same time the, the psychiatrist officer full. The therapist officer full. You can barely get them. The morgue, everyone, the morg's are full. You're getting, you're. Everyone's getting on some medication or another. So we're depressed, we're upset, suicides are on the rise and yet we also live in such a time of abundance. How do you square it?

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, I think they're directly correlated though. I mean I think that first of all the abundance was made possible quicker because we decided to forsake a lot of moral guardrails because we decided to redomicile industrial plants to China and not look after our fellow countrymen. Because we decided to act as if another screen is going to solve all of our problems while not disciplining or actually raising our children. Because we never ever wanted to have a conversation about children being born out of wedlock or fathers not in the home or the destruction of the church or the non stop propaganda campaign against American Christianity which is everywhere needs any of those things. Right, exactly.

[Jack Sobic]

That doesn't contribute.

[Charlie Kirk]

What I think is interesting though is that. And this is why Jordan Peterson was so popular and I think people get Jordan wrong and I have a lot of respect for him. I know people on the far right don't like him. I don't know if you're a Jordan fan or not. I've heard some like weird criticisms. I think, I think he's super smart. I like him a lot. He's.

[Jack Sobic]

No, no, I like Jordan. But he's, he is, he is quite Canadian, put it that way.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. And again, I really have no patience for a lot of criticism towards him.

[Jack Sobic]

See things from him like I do. I have, I have all my vaccinations and I can't believe they're not allowing me. It's like Jordan, I don't listen. Literally right. About not complying. Tyrannical.

[Charlie Kirk]

I'm not. And then that's probably fair. But here's where I think why Jordan got really popular.

[Jack Sobic]

But don't get me wrong, don't get me wrong. I've gone to see Jordan, I have his book, I've interviewed him.

[Charlie Kirk]

But let me tell you why I think he got popular and why I think he resonated is that he pinpointed people were miserable. Yes. And he gave people a reasonable platform to believe in ancient texts and religious structure.

[Jack Sobic]

Yes.

[Charlie Kirk]

Where all of a sudden they were like, oh, so by the way, I believe every word of the Bible. Totally true inerrancy of scripture. Right. I believe in Jonah the whale to the sea being parted. The whole thing, it's not allegorical. It's literally based. It's true. Okay. And you believe the same as a Catholic, or you should, which is he.

[Jack Sobic]

Literally was part of no, of course it was.

[Charlie Kirk]

Obviously, absolutely. But the point is that Jordan didn't make a claim on that. Instead, he said, what is the deeper philosophical, psychological reason you should care about this?

[Jack Sobic]

And so explain to me how people writing the Bible, thousands and thousands of years before any of this science or psychology or et cetera, was was studied. And they got it all right, because.

[Charlie Kirk]

The Word of God.

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[Charlie Kirk]

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[Jack Sobic]

Visit spinquest.com for more details.

[Jack Posobiec]

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[Charlie Kirk]

Toyotathon, toyota thon. Toyota Thon is on. Oh, what fun it is to drive.

[Jack Sobic]

A new Toyota today.

[Jack Posobiec]

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[Charlie Kirk]

Toyota Thon, Toyota Thon. Toyota Thon is dealer.

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[Charlie Kirk]

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[Jack Sobic]

See your participating dealer for details.

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[Jack Sobic]

You know, they talk about influencers.

[Charlie Kirk]

These are influencers and they're friends of mine.

[Odoo Advertiser]

Jack.

[Jack Sobic]

Where's Jack? Jack. He's done a great job.

[Charlie Kirk]

I'll give you an example. So let's talk about the creation story. Right in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. So it says very specifically that God created ex nihilo out of nothing, right? It's a Hebrew word.

[Jack Sobic]

Yes.

[Charlie Kirk]

So one of the ex nihilos was that God hovered over the darkness of the earth. That's like a weird thing to say, right?

[Jack Sobic]

Yes.

[Charlie Kirk]

New science shows the earth was completely dark at some point. That precisely what it says, that no matter what your creation story is, big Bang or whatever, that there was darkness over all the earth, meaning clouds covered the entire earth. There was no light.

[Jack Sobic]

Right. So my, I mean, I remember being a kid reading about, you know, so I'm reading the seven days of creation and, well, seven days being rest. But then I always remember going to, you know, my teacher and saying, well, what is a day to God?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. And so this is hotly debated. I'm a literalist. You're a literalist. I believe a day's a day. And I could go into the actual Hebrew of what a day is. But if you believe it's meeting a 24 hour. But that's correct. But it's actually completely irrelevant.

[Jack Sobic]

So what I also get, though, and I find amazing, is every time, and just get to the point is every time we uncover something new about the creation of the planet, it fits.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes, that's right.

[Jack Sobic]

Every single time. And even the stages that it goes through. Well, yeah, every single one.

[Charlie Kirk]

Everything from Quarantining someone who's sick, that's one of the Levitical laws. Washing your hands before you eat, that's one of the Levitical laws, right?

[Jack Sobic]

These aren't like, you know, hey, oh, this is crazy stuff. No, no, really, like, don't, don't do these things.

[Charlie Kirk]

This is clean. Yes, exactly. And so, but before they had, before.

[Jack Sobic]

Germ theory was even before germ theory.

[Charlie Kirk]

Was even entertained, by the thousands of years in the 1400s and 1500s, you had people that were bloodletting against Levitical law. And if they would have just followed what the Bible was saying, the Old Testament was saying, it very well could have been informative.

[Jack Sobic]

There's actually a lot of that in natural health. When it comes to dietary standards, they also point that out as well.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, if you eat kosher, you will live a better life, there is no doubt. Now, it's more expensive, it doesn't taste as good, it's twice the price and half the taste is the joke.

[Jack Sobic]

But you will be health, totally. Your body was designed for specific.

[Charlie Kirk]

If you don't eat shrimps, mollusks, I don't know who would eat a mollusk. Oysters or like sea urchins. Every study shows that's way better for you. There's full of bacteria, it's hard to digest, but also just like putting dairy on that of a meat, it's not necessarily great for you. Cheeseburgers are actually way worse for you than hamburgers. I could go on and on and on, right? The dietary standards, how to clean it beforehand. And so anyway, you ask the question, how is it that it's right? Well, it's because it actually happened and that this book built everything that we know.

[Jack Sobic]

So we took that book, we, you know, the west took that book and said, we're going to put this on the shelf. We're going to let accumulate dust, we're going to let the spiderwebs crawl all over it while you, sure, you can go to church on Sunday and do whatever, pray to your cross or whatever, but we are going to be over here building a much greater and stronger.

[Charlie Kirk]

And more powerful utility. And again, that's why I pinpoint not the industrial revolution, but the scientific revolution, the mismanagement of the scientific inquiry into the natural world is why we're in the mess that we're in. And that's where you get Hegel, that's where you get John Dewey. That's where you get the German historicist. That's where you get all the atrocities in the 20th century. That's where we get Fauci, the CDC. It all comes from the science.

[Jack Sobic]

If you look at the beginnings of the scientific revolution, much of this was Sir Francis Bacon. It's Christians, there's priests that are involved at Mendel, there's many. Gregory Mendel. And there's also even in Darwin to an extent.

[Charlie Kirk]

Darwin was a different guy, but you're right, there's. He was applied to a lot of different.

[Jack Sobic]

Right, but there's this. There's this idea of we are learning more about God's creation. Right. And you can kind of see that throughout the.

[Charlie Kirk]

Right. Yeah, totally.

[Jack Sobic]

I mean, but they never saw it as a challenge.

[Charlie Kirk]

So there's a number. I'll get the exact number. And so when would you.

[Jack Sobic]

When would you say that that sort of change in thinking took place?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, that's a really good question. So just to reinforce the point, every beautiful piece of music had soli a day. Basically, I'm getting the Latin word wrong. Glory to God at the top of every music. Right. Whether it be Bach or Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart or Chopin, Whoever it was all glory be to God.

[Jack Sobic]

Better mention Frederic Chopin.

[Charlie Kirk]

Huh?

[Jack Sobic]

You better mention Chopin, of course.

[Charlie Kirk]

And so where did it change? That's an interesting question. The French Revolution played a huge role, more so than the American Revolution. So the American Revolution gets misread by modern day leftists as this kind of liberal moment that we realized that we must throw the shackles off of everything before us and create a new. And the founders never mentioned any of that. In fact, the founding was more.

[Jack Sobic]

You don't have the guillotines in Philadelphia and New York.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, yeah, but also just look at the texts. Everything about the text was anchoring towards tradition. One of the course of human events comes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands that has tied them to another. Right. It's right there. One of the course of human events and deriving from the equal and just powers as separate stations. Among them are the laws of nature and nature is God. Laws in nature. Nature's God.

[Jack Sobic]

They went to great pains to tie the American Revolution to the past in saying, this is not. We are not throwing the baby out with bath water.

[Charlie Kirk]

It's appealed to the supreme ruler of the earth. That was a direct quote Jefferson put. And this was Jefferson's challenge, which is why I think every school should have a Jefferson statue. Because what he did was so unbelievably remarkable. He was able to mix the immediate with the eternal. He was able to mix the prudent and the practical with the. With the everlasting they still have.

[Jack Sobic]

If you go to Philadelphia, it's at 5th and Market. You can actually go to the building where his apartment was that Right. Where he wrote.

[Charlie Kirk]

So you know Philadelphia better than I do. I've been in Independence Hall.

[Jack Sobic]

Yeah. And it, well, it's, it's, you know.

[Charlie Kirk]

Not far from it, which is where it was.

[Jack Sobic]

It's within.

[Charlie Kirk]

Right, yeah.

[Jack Sobic]

That's signed. But where it's actually written, which I always thought was really cool.

[Charlie Kirk]

And there was not many people know about it either. There was a lust amongst the Thomas Paine types to go even further on the Declaration, of course. But Thomas Jefferson was able to balance.

[Jack Sobic]

And Paine gets in very quickly into radical liberalism.

[Charlie Kirk]

Oh yeah, totally.

[Jack Sobic]

Afterwards.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, Paine was a radical liberal. In a lot of ways he was a revolutionary and we should thank him for stirring up the revolutionary fervor. At the same time, you know, you gotta have a lot of respect for how the founders kind of cooled that down and struck that balance. And this is the misreading of the founding, which is that the founding was nothing more than the beginning of a multi hundred year progressive movement.

[Jack Sobic]

Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

Because that makes sense. And that's, that's the position a lot of conservatives take.

[Jack Sobic]

Because when we talk about revolutionary politics or revolutionary thinking or revolutionary ideologies, we never really talk about the American Revolution in those terms because inherently I think we know that it's not that it was something.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. And I've heard a historian say this Thomas West, I don't think agrees with this. It's more of a separation than it was a revolution.

[Jack Sobic]

Precisely.

[Charlie Kirk]

And I don't want to put words in the great Thomas West's mouth, but that's probably right, I think because it was more just kind of like, hey, can we go our own way type thing. French Revolution wasn't as, let's say, precisely written.

[Jack Sobic]

No, that was a little different.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. They changed the time in the calendar, purged the non believers. They ended up killing their own guy, Robespierre.

[Jack Sobic]

The priests were all wiped out.

[Charlie Kirk]

Of course.

[Jack Sobic]

Notre Dame was converted into a cult, a temple of reason. The cult of reason replaces the church.

[Charlie Kirk]

So Christianity actually didn't know that's super completely outlawed. Thought I knew a lot about the French Revolution.

[Jack Sobic]

I didn't know that completely out. So the church is outlawed, priests are executed, They're. They're put into the guillotine. Literally. The actual ch.

[Charlie Kirk]

I didn't know that. I didn't know that.

[Jack Sobic]

They converted Notre Dame. They convert Notre Dame into a temple to the cult of reason.

[Charlie Kirk]

Oh, I love that.

[Jack Sobic]

And they have, they have holidays and.

[Charlie Kirk]

So no, I did know that they.

[Jack Sobic]

Realized that they need to have some type of, of worship. Right. Because they understand right there, they, they do understand that there is this. They call it, you know, the God shaped hole right within the human psyche. And so they replace that with the cult of reason. And they.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. And so we as Christians at one point too, I grew up experiencing all the different Christian stereotypes, like big mega church pastors screaming at you, asking for money or whatever. And you know, I think that turned a lot of people off the stereotype and the propaganda campaign. Obviously not it being not in essence true.

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[Charlie Kirk]

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[Jack Posobiec]

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[Charlie Kirk]

And Jack. Where's Jack?

[Jack Sobic]

Where's Jack? Where is he? Jack, I want to see you. Great job, Jack.

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[Charlie Kirk]

What a job you do.

[Jack Sobic]

You know, we have an incredible thing.

[Charlie Kirk]

We're always talking about the fake news and the bad, but we have guys and these are the guys who've been getting bullishers. But the Bible's the word of God and it's how you should live your life. There is not one thing anyone listening right now is experiencing. The Bible does not have a roadmap on how to bless you. Not one thing.

[Jack Sobic]

And what's, what's amazing too is every single time that humans have tried to create their own Bible, it has failed.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, yeah, I mean, so this is where Nietzsche tried and it drove him mad.

[Jack Sobic]

Yes, this is why it drove him.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes. Because he said, I have to go create my own values. Good luck. Here's a pen and paper. What do you got, Mr. Nietzsche. And it drove him insane.

[Jack Sobic]

And Stalin also thought that he would never be able to figure out a way to get a mass acceptance of those values throughout.

[Charlie Kirk]

Or what you have is just a copy paste of what the Bible says and then relabel it under some weird pagan atheistic reason thing. But here's the problem. This is a problem is that people won't accept it if they don't think it's divinely inspired.

[Jack Sobic]

Precisely.

[Charlie Kirk]

It's a very important thing. And so you know, I tell people all the time, they say, charlie, why do you honor the Sabbath? I say, because God tells me to. And they say, what do you mean? Because it's commanded of me. I said, that's it. I said, if you believe God told you to do something, would you do it right? And they say, well, it doesn't make logical sense. First of all, it actually does. All the signs shows that taking one day of rest is actually really good for you.

[Jack Sobic]

Have you ever gone and seen any of the illuminated manuscripts in Europe that they still have some of the preserved Bibles from the medieval time? I've seen the. So I went to.

[Charlie Kirk]

You're probably not a Geneva Bible fan, but.

[Jack Sobic]

No, but I did go see the Book of Kells at the Trinity University or Trinity College in Dublin. And you see, so these, these were the Bibles that were written during the Middle Ages when, you know, the only literacy was in the priest class. And so these, when they're writing this, it's. It's this beautiful every. And yes, each, you know, the title page of each. Each book as it begins, is each one of itself a masterpiece. But even the flowing calligraphy that you see, these people actually truly believed that what they were writing was each stroke of the pen was perfect because it was the word of God, period.

[Charlie Kirk]

And so this is the struggle ahead of us right now, right, which is that so many people have believed that God doesn't exist or it's some sort of weird Eastern meditative God, which I guess is better than believing not know God, but there's a huge difference between the God of the east and the God of the West.

[Jack Sobic]

Massive difference.

[Charlie Kirk]

Like, massive. They believe that God is in the nature. We believe God created nature. Right. There's a lot of difference.

[Jack Sobic]

There's also a lot of. Like, when I lived in China, you know, you would. You would talk about, you know, the. And even. Even, after all, atheistic society.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, yeah.

[Jack Sobic]

Yes and no, because even after.

[Charlie Kirk]

Very superstitious of.

[Jack Sobic]

Yeah. So, like, even after all the years of Communism, there's still this. This. And it's a total hodgepodge. There's of. Of.

[Charlie Kirk]

From the Analect of like and like.

[Jack Sobic]

From all traditional.

[Odoo Advertiser]

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[Jack Sobic]

The I Ching, etc. But it's very transactional. That's. That's basically what it comes.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. And this is one of the reasons. Why.

[Jack Sobic]

Can I get out of.

[Charlie Kirk]

This is why gambling's a bigger deal in Asian culture. Yes, it is. It's that you are going to play your odds up against karma and number.

[Jack Sobic]

The Universe numerology in Asia is way, way.

[Charlie Kirk]

But that all kind of plays into fate and karma and all these other dynamics.

[Jack Sobic]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

Where the God of the west is an empowering God, the God of the west is a personal God. Yeah.

[Jack Sobic]

It's not like you can't.

[Charlie Kirk]

And a triune one, you can't play.

[Jack Sobic]

Your odds with the.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, no, no. Instead it's God that says, you can't.

[Jack Sobic]

Like, trick your way.

[Charlie Kirk]

Or it's like no slave, nor Greek, nor Jew, we are all one in Jesus Christ. Right. Where it says in Philippians 4, 6, where it says, do not be anxious. Right. But instead, through Christ Jesus and prayer, thanksgiving and supplication, make your request known to God and the Spirit of the Lord, which transcends all understanding, by the way. Right. Will comfort you and guide you. And then it goes on to say, whatever is true, whatever is good, whatever.

[Jack Sobic]

That's why it's amazing that one thing that I've realized even as I've gotten older, I've got kids now, skin in the game, you know, it's like you, I'm married. And when you have something to lose, it's. I'm so thankful that God gave us prayer. I'm so thankful that we have that. That as a gift. Where it's just this outlet where you can go to and say, I am at my limit. I am at my extent. I realize I'm at my extent. I have nowhere else to go. And then, boom, there it is.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. So one of the. I think it's in Colossians, Corinthians, there's this verse that is commonly quoted where people say, well, Charlie, God will never give you more than you can handle. I said, what kind of weird theology do you believe?

[Jack Sobic]

Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

God will give you more than you can handle every day, but not more than he can handle.

[Jack Sobic]

Exactly.

[Charlie Kirk]

Huge difference. Because the difference is, are you going to then give up your hands and say, God, I need you to take care of this. I am not enough. I can't get this done. And just from the pure scientific clinical data, it shows you're actually a happier person, a more productive person, a more thankful person. If you actually even go through the process of prayer. Not alone. Not to mention that prayer is actually an immediate and personal conversation with the living God. And so you ask the question, how did the west get here? Right. And.

[Jack Sobic]

And we keep trying to recreate it, by the way. We say, oh, well, we'll do some type of meditative act or.

[Charlie Kirk]

Which again, is better than, you know, when you.

[Jack Sobic]

When this is all going yoga, right?

[Charlie Kirk]

Of course.

[Jack Sobic]

Always has all these things.

[Charlie Kirk]

Better than doing, like New Zealand orgies or whatever, right?

[Jack Sobic]

25, not 26, but I feel so bad for Guy. 26.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, but then, but then at what, at what point does the meditative yoga circuit all of a sudden say, this is how God wants you to live? And then they're never going to say that, Right. Instead, it's all about centering yourself. Well, then what's your morality? How would you organize society?

[Jack Sobic]

A lot of it is based on this idea that if you just become more one with yourself, then you're.

[Charlie Kirk]

It's incredible, incredibly narcissistic.

[Jack Sobic]

You essentially, like God becomes through and from.

[Charlie Kirk]

So here's another. Here's another difference between Buddhism and Christianity, right? So Buddhism believes. At the highest level of Buddhism, you don't talk.

[Jack Sobic]

I've been to Tibet, I've been to the monasteries, and they have these incredible debates where they're looking at each other and they will clap with their hands at each other, and yet they're not actually speaking.

[Charlie Kirk]

In Christianity, the two creation stories, God created the heavens, the earth, and the beginning was the Word. The Word was God. The Word was with God. Right. Is Logos, which is the word for speech. Right. God spoke into existence. We are the speaking beings at the highest levels of existence and earthly existence. We are beings that are reasoning, speaking and communicating. And the highest level of existence in Buddhism, you shut up. It's a big difference.

[Jack Sobic]

Yeah. You turn yourself over to what? Exactly.

[Charlie Kirk]

Right. But also, you're not. Obviously, you're not winning people over. You're not communicating, you're not reasoning. It's very sheltered. It's very. It's like retreating. I think there's a place for that. I think resting is obviously important, but the highest level of Buddhist philosophy is that you then ascent to the highest level of nirvana. Right? Right through that, where we believe the total opposite.

[Jack Sobic]

And that's how you're breaking the cycle.

[Charlie Kirk]

And you. We believe Jesus came to us. We believe Nirvana, whatever heaven, which we believe is a real place, has a nonstop ticket where Jesus said, here you go, I paid the whole price for you. You don't have to go sit down and shut up and go to some hill and clap at each other and wear an orange robe. No offense, anyone that might do that, that listen to our show, you might be a nice person. Whatever. The point is that it's totally different. Here's a ticket. Free admission. Go free. As it says in John 8:38, the truth will set you free. That Through Jesus Christ, we are free.

[Jack Sobic]

And so when you have that type of religion at the center, like, take it back a little bit at the center of your society. Right. When you have that type of empowering ideology at the center of your society. Because of course, you know, you go to Asia, they've all basically done away with Buddhism. I mean, that's not.

[Charlie Kirk]

But there's a lot of different variations of forms of that. Well, there are.

[Jack Sobic]

I mean, you could go to, you know, there's Tibetan Buddhism, there's Chinese Buddhism, there's the Buddhism of Southwest Asia, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And I've been to these places, I've spent time with them. I've met these people. I've. I've fascinated in many ways by, you know, we went to the J. Buddha Temple, actually live near the J. Buddha Temple in Shanghai. But it just seems to be missing something. Right. And what it really is missing, what I've always found, is that direct personal connection that you have with your creator.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes, that's right.

[Jack Sobic]

Not creation. Right. We are of creation.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's a big difference.

[Jack Sobic]

But that I am directly connected to my creator. That is the king of the universe.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, let's start with how Genesis 1 starts, right? God created the heavens and the earth. The heavens and the earth are not God. No, God created the heavens and the earth. He is above the heavens and the earth.

[Jack Sobic]

Precisely.

[Charlie Kirk]

It's a big difference.

[Jack Sobic]

Supreme.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes, he is. He is totally above.

[Jack Sobic]

So if you are any other. It's like we had this at our parish. They just started this new. And I don't know if we're going to be going there anymore if they still keep doing this, but they said, oh, we're going to have a racial justice committee.

[Charlie Kirk]

You should leave.

[Jack Sobic]

And this is going to be the. And you go, and you can, you can take.

[Charlie Kirk]

I can give you so many verses, it'll make their heads.

[Jack Sobic]

And I, and I just turn to Tanya and we're sitting there, I'm like, look around the room right now. This is racial justice, Right. If that's something you're concerned with, you've got every single ethnicity under this roof under God worshiping Christ together. What do we need a committee for? Right? This is the supreme Being. We are the lessers. It's simple, right? And to me, quite frankly, if you're someone who's so concerned with the differences of people, you know, I really question whether or not you're putting Christ at the center.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, it's replacement religion. Absolutely right. That means that there's Something wrong?

[Jack Sobic]

This is a competing.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, of course.

[Jack Sobic]

Absolutely. A competing theology.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. And we see this with the cult of Greta Thunberg, and we see this with Fauci. These are all replacement religions.

[Jack Sobic]

And the church had to deal with this. Yes, in, in 300 A.D. 280 precisely. We see the exact same thing.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. Justinian and every major. You know, Roman Constantine dealt with the same thing in like 320 or whatever. Same sort of thing. So, yeah, you asked the question, how did the west get here? We mismanaged the scientific revolution. There were beautiful fruits of the scientific revolution. Admitting the heliocentric theory of gravitational pull was a good thing for humanity. Catholic Church minorly mismanaged that, but that's a separate issue for a different time.

[Jack Sobic]

Right. Also debatable how it was managed. Jack is a great guy. He's written a fantastic book. Everybody's talking about it. Go get it. And he's been my friend right from the beginning of this whole beautiful event. And we're gonna turn it around and.

[Charlie Kirk]

Make our country great again.

[Jack Sobic]

Amen.

[Charlie Kirk]

I said slightly mismanaged. I think that the characterization's actually unfair. He wasn't executed. He went to like a villa with his students.

[Jack Sobic]

But yeah, it's exactly.

[Charlie Kirk]

The Catholic Church was wrong and they tried to cover it up. That's irrefutable.

[Jack Sobic]

Man is always.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, but, but the way that, the way that they defended it was wrong. And you don't have, you don't have to defend them on this. It's okay.

[Jack Sobic]

My point is that every, every man made institution or every man run institution is going to have issues.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's fine. I think it's sometimes used unfairly, but I'd still yield with the place that it was a mistake. The point is that then in the 1600s, early 1700s, we started to see man's all of a sudden domination over nature. Right. So the scientific revolution changed the game.

[Jack Sobic]

Right. You get to the point where, you.

[Charlie Kirk]

Know, we've gone, we're no longer victims.

[Jack Sobic]

Of nature, you know, we're, we're, we're agrarians. And then we, you know, we start being able to do some trade and hey, maybe I found some shiny rocks over here, so I'll trade you some of those. But now suddenly it's, you know, now you're cooking with gas.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. And so then you started to see there's, there's no, there's no mystery then why you started to see philosophers posit, well, if we can dominate nature, why do we need this Christianity thing? Right. It all came at the same time, obviously. And then it kind of hit this apex point where the Industrial revolution was happening. But again, the Industrial Revolution only happened because of the scientific revolution. It does not happen one without the other. And then, yeah, you get people like Marx who says religion's the opiate of the masses, and you get Hegel, who argues about a new way to view history, and you get this completely different paradigm. But throughout the entire thing, it's kind of been obvious. I mean, it's easy to play like, oh, they coulda, shoulda, woulda. But definitely in the last 50 years, I think conservatives have always been on the right side of the left's progress for the West. Meaning, like, our idea of right is like, we're gonna take the most right position of the left wing, right?

[Jack Sobic]

Yeah, exactly.

[Charlie Kirk]

It's like, okay, whatever. It's like, okay, maybe we don't do drag queen story hour. Who's to say that we're not gonna do Children can't do, you know, sexual reassignment.

[Jack Sobic]

Of course we should have universal health care, but we have to manage it.

[Charlie Kirk]

Or do it market.

[Jack Sobic]

Yeah, market universal health care.

[Charlie Kirk]

Or it's like, you know, it's one thing to say we shouldn't have, like, no new immigrants. Let's just have the right ones or whatever. Right? And some of these are reasonable things. Some of them are not. When you look at decay, we should have been pushing in the opposite direction. Right? And I think there's this whole new renaissance around these ideas because people like you and me, similar to Nietzsche, I never thought I'd say that, are seeing the absolute unraveling of everything around us because. And we really don't care what you call us anymore.

[Jack Sobic]

We've gotten to a point now where we realize that, you know, are we living through. I mean, we're clearly living through a collapse cycle. Right. You know, and even. Even Joe Rogan is talking about Kali, Hugo, bringing up, you know, a lot of these different theories on fourth turning, et cetera, about what exactly kind of cycle we're in. And we're in that. So the question then becomes, when you look at other collapses, when you look at other societies that have gone through this, other civilizations, which ones managed it properly, which ones decided to actually take, you know, can you fight history, I think, is a question now.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, I mean, the Romans are always a good example. And the Romans splintered and had the Eastern Roman Empire for a pretty long time. And that fell apart eventually, but that was a pretty big success.

[Jack Sobic]

I mean, the Eastern Roman Empire, byzantium Right. It went. Was the flagship for Christianity over a thousand years.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. It's hard to say the Ottoman Empire was Byzantium, but that's probably true to an extent. Meaning that as soon as that absolved, you know, with the fall of Constantinople and whatever year that was, where the Turks finally won.

[Jack Sobic]

14:53.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. The fall of the Hagia Sophia. And it's a really interesting battle. It's a long siege. They tried many times. They finally succeeded, but. Yeah.

[Jack Sobic]

So I don't think we've forgotten about that.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, exactly. Well, Rome didn't send reinforcements in time. That's a different conversation for a different time.

[Jack Sobic]

But it's true.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, it's actually.

[Jack Sobic]

It's true.

[Charlie Kirk]

Rome's gonna bailed out Constantinople.

[Jack Sobic]

Well, this is a huge issue between the Catholics and the Orthodox. The Orthodox right now, today is Constantinople.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. I mean, Rome could have fixed the whole problem, the whole issue. Right. 1. One flotilla of boats.

[Jack Sobic]

Easily.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. And they were counting on it. It never happened, so. Or they like stayed at bay or something. There was some weird political thing there. I don't remember.

[Jack Sobic]

It ends up being a lot more. And this is something that Tanya and I talk. So my wife is Orthodox and I've said that many times. But, you know, one thing we talk about it is that it. It did end up being much more of a political separation than anything else.

[Charlie Kirk]

Right. And it wasn't a good thing that the Turks took over. Constantinople still isn't to this day, obviously.

[Jack Sobic]

Sophia is still a church, by the way, Just for the rest.

[Charlie Kirk]

Regardless of what they say.

[Jack Sobic]

No matter what they say, I don't care.

[Charlie Kirk]

Isn't it interesting how they always want to change churches to mosques? It's really weird. We don't try to turn mosques to church.

[Jack Sobic]

No, we don't. Well, it's like I was up in. I was in Toronto and of course it was in Toronto and we saw this. This Episcopalian church, because of course it was Episcopalian and it was. It was with the refugees, welcome and they have the crescent moon and we're there with Tanya and she goes, you know, if you tried to do that to a mosque and said, christians, welcome and put a cross in front of. Imagine you go to Middle east and put that off, what would happen? You're hand cut off immediately.

[Charlie Kirk]

But that's tolerance becoming your own death.

[Jack Sobic]

But then I was saying. So I was saying we should go and we should get like, you know, like a paintbrush or something. And then, you know, underneath the. The crescent moon.

[Charlie Kirk]

Right.

[Jack Sobic]

Refugees, welcome to learn the gospel.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, that's right.

[Jack Sobic]

Everyone's well known the gospel because it's a church. Right. That's the point of churches, is to teach the gospel and further the, the teachings.

[Charlie Kirk]

So you ask where this goes. We don't know. The unraveling of empires can be messy. We are an empire. It's just the way it is.

[Jack Sobic]

Yeah, I mean, I mean, there's two separate questions there, obviously, but I'm really.

[Charlie Kirk]

Not in the prediction business. The way with that stuff, it just exhaust. It's exhausting.

[Jack Sobic]

The way that I look at it is the way to manage it is, you know, okay, are we not. Are we going to be an empire going forward or are we not? And if we're not, what do we do to reconstitute ourselves in a way that is most beneficial for the people who live here?

[Charlie Kirk]

Now? The problem with the American empire is that we never admitted we were one. Right. And that was the weirdest thing. It's like, oh, yeah, we're not an empire. Meanwhile, we're gonna have bases in every corner of the world.

[Jack Sobic]

There's some interesting theories out there about, you know, whether or not the British Empire just kind of continued through the Anglosphere, you know, through the Anglosphere. And we still kind of defer to England on a lot of like, of this foreign policy. Like, yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

I don't know stuff.

[Jack Sobic]

And it's, it, it's an interesting take.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's probably too deep.

[Jack Sobic]

It's an interesting take.

[Charlie Kirk]

But yeah, I mean, the, the thing.

[Jack Sobic]

That particularly when it comes to some of the Eastern European is when.

[Charlie Kirk]

Where you live.

[Jack Sobic]

Yes.

[Charlie Kirk]

And that's the most important. I mean, so we're trying to do that here in Arizona.

[Odoo Advertiser]

Yes.

[Charlie Kirk]

Right. Is that just focus local and the rest might work, it might not. Because that actually is something that can.

[Jack Posobiec]

Well.

[Jack Sobic]

And even, even, even smaller than that, even go back to, hey, we're going to have ordered families again. We should push policies that we're not going to make decisions for people. But we can say as a society, hey, society works better when we have these things called families.

[Charlie Kirk]

We're unafraid to make raising moral dreams claims about the good of existence.

[Jack Sobic]

This is good morally and it's also good socially and civilization better.

[Charlie Kirk]

Right.

[Jack Sobic]

And if the GDP has to go down just a little bit.

[Charlie Kirk]

But here's the crazy thing. It won't. Like, that's the. It might go down like half a percent. Great. Okay, so we have families and people are happy. So, yeah, I mean, I mean, you.

[Jack Sobic]

Look at this town that just got hit with this. Was it Mayfield? I believe it was called Kentucky in Kentucky. And I mean, it's like a Mayberry kind of town, right? But I was talking to somebody who, who lived near there, and he said, you know, but it's just like one of these other towns where it was. We had this amazing community at one point, and then over the last 40, 50 years, it's just been gutted. And the people there were already living in poverty. Just absolute poverty.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. Well, I know we have to wrap amfest.com everybody, if you want to go to America Fest this, Jack, this is your show, so you gotta end.

[Jack Sobic]

I. I do have to end it, don't I? Charlie, where can people follow you on? Yeah, you're listening.

[Charlie Kirk]

Make sure you subscribe to the Charlie Kirk show podcast.

[Jack Sobic]

Yeah, check out Charlie. He's got like some little rinky dink podcast there that people.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's what they tell me, that people.

[Jack Sobic]

Kind of follow with. But, but in all seriousness, Charlie, what's the biggest thing you're looking forward to for next. The next year and the next?

[Charlie Kirk]

I will say this very shortly. I'm looking forward to more people getting based.

[Jack Sobic]

Love it, folks. Charlie Kirk, Jack Sobic, you know, thank you.

[Jack Posobiec]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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