B (2:05)

Rachel Ann Brown.

H (2:06)

I am happy to be here. And, you know, I think that this is a great show because virtually everybody can relate. We all know somebody that needs healing, whether it's in their bodies, sometimes in their minds. But, you know, God's healing is available to all. It says by his stripes, we're healed. And so that's available to all of us as believers.

B (2:24)

That's what we're going to be talking about. Right. With our guest today, Kendra Kelly. David, are you ready?

A (2:29)

I'm ready.

B (2:29)

Okay, let's go. Let's do it.

A (2:31)

He's a good God.

B (2:33)

He's a good God and he just

A (2:34)

wants us to talk to him and ask him, and he's always there. He'll always show up and show us comfort and peace through whatever we're going through.

B (2:40)

It's so true. Denise and Rick Renner are at the table.

C (2:45)

We're glad to be at the table.

B (2:47)

So good to have y' all there. Did you like that little opening I gave you? Like that?

A (2:50)

That was good.

B (2:51)

I sang it.

C (2:52)

Thank you.

B (2:52)

I sang it Because Denise is opera singer. Yes. That's why it went higher like that. Did you notice that? That was beautiful. Growing up, Rick Renner believed that miracles were a thing of the past. But after experiencing God's healing touch for himself, his life changed forever. Today, he and his wife Denise are here to share insights from his book, everything you need to know about healing. Now, why did you write this book?

C (3:24)

Because we've seen a lot of people healed in our ministry, but we had some people die, and people began to ask the legitimate question, why did they die? They were believing, why do people believe in healing and they die? And I felt like we have an obligation to answer those questions.

B (3:42)

But I think there are times that we don't know the answer.

D (3:45)

Sometimes.

C (3:45)

Sometimes we don't know the answer. But in the first eight chapters of that book, I cover a lot of reasons why Christians don't get healed. And it's really self sabotage. You know, I told Joni earlier, if you put your foot on the gas and on the brake at the same time, you're not going to go anywhere. And a lot of people are putting their foot on the faith. We're believing God for healing, but they're doing a lot of wrong things in their lives.

B (4:08)

And what is that?

C (4:09)

Stupidity. Doing really stupid things.

B (4:12)

Like what?

C (4:13)

Well, I don't want to offend anybody, but can I be honest?

D (4:16)

Yes.

I (4:16)

Would you please?

C (4:17)

Well, there was a time when I weighed 150 more pounds than I weighed right now, and I was falling. I had blood pressure issues, my back was hurting, and I kept asking everybody to pray for my back. And one day the Lord said to me, quit asking people to pray for your back. You don't have a back problem. Lose the weight and you will experience

H (4:37)

something you could do yourself.

C (4:39)

It was self sabotage.

B (4:40)

Yeah. What about unforgiveness?

C (4:42)

Unforgiveness. The physiological effects of unforgiveness.

B (4:46)

Will you say that's like one of the number one reasons why people are sick?

C (4:50)

There's one major doctor who said to me, it was Don Colbert. He said if people would forgive, 80% of Christians would get well.

I (4:58)

Wow.

C (4:58)

That's a pretty big number.

F (5:00)

It is.

A (5:00)

Wow.

F (5:01)

And what about their.

C (5:01)

And we really dive into that in this book.

F (5:03)

What about their confessions? The words we speak?

C (5:07)

Well, the words we speak are very important. If you speak negative words, those negative words are going to become your reality. But if you're going to speak words that bring health, first of all, you gotta get it in your heart.

E (5:18)

Yes.

C (5:18)

A lot of people have the right words. In their mouth.

B (5:20)

And they say the words, but they don't have it in their heart. They don't believe.

C (5:23)

It's just a mouthful of words. You've got to get aligned between your heart and your mouth in order for your faith confession to work.

B (5:31)

That's so good.

H (5:31)

Why do you believe that Jesus still heals today?

C (5:35)

He paid for it on the cross 100%. If you go to Isaiah 53, 3, 5 and really pull those verses apart irrefutably, Jesus paid the price for forgiveness of sin, peace of mind, liberation from doubt and shame, and also healing of the body and the mind. It is ours.

B (5:55)

You know, at the Garden of Gethsemane, where Jesus prayed, Remember, he kept trying to get the disciples to pray. They kept falling asleep. And the Bible said that he was so burdened, you know, he said, you know, father, if you can let this cup pass from me, but nevertheless, not my will, your will be done. But the Bible says that he sweat great drops of blood. And so I always think there when I go to the Garden of Gethsemane, that he really paid for the emotional and mental illnesses of the world.

C (6:32)

That's great, Joni.

B (6:33)

Because when he was there thinking about, he knew what he was about to endure, and yet he said, not my will, but your will be done. Can you think of the mental anguish that he must have been feeling?

C (6:46)

And he sweat blood for our mental. I have never had that connection. That is great.

B (6:52)

I have always thought I might write

C (6:54)

a book on that.

B (6:55)

Okay, just include me in there a little bit. That was on table talk.

C (7:00)

All right,

I (7:02)

Joni, I have a testimony. Absolutely. Because I have a dear friend, and she was suffering with panic attacks, and I mean, so bad. She had two little boys, and she was so ashamed and they were so violent that she'd hide herself in the closet when they would come. And she got into the Garden of Gethsemane in chapter in John, and she started meditating on that blood, the first drops, by the way, that came off of Jesus. And as she started meditating on that blood, that she said, well, Lord, you took my mental pain, my mental torment. And so she said then that if you took it, then I don't have to bear it. And the next day, she was completely delivered from those panic and hasn't had another one since.

B (7:56)

I can remember so many times when the enemy would try to use that mental and emotional destruction against your praying that he tries to do. Right. I mean. Cause it's a battleground right here, the mind.

C (8:10)

It is.

B (8:11)

I'll remember The Garden of Gethsemane. And I'll be like, lord, you already paid for this, and I'm going to give this to you. And it would just lift. But Larry Huck talks about the seven places that he shed his blood.

C (8:28)

That's really good teaching.

B (8:29)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, the Bible says that he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities, and the chastisement of our peace was upon him. And with his stripes, we are healed. And I think one of the things, like you said, you've got to get it in your heart. You've got to understand. I mean, that comes not only faith, but trust in God.

C (8:50)

It does.

B (8:51)

What about that?

C (8:52)

Well, trust is based on knowledge. You know, when Denise and I grew up, we didn't have a clue that God healed the sick. We thought that God made people sick. I mean, we weren't just taught badly. We believed that God really was the source of all. He was sovereign. So if it happened to us, it must be the will of God.

H (9:11)

Okay.

C (9:11)

And I can remember in prayer meeting, if somebody said, please pray for my uncle, he's dying of cancer. Here's how we would pray. God, please give him the grace to accept this cancer as your will in his life, that he would glorify you as he dies.

B (9:25)

Oh, no.

C (9:26)

And I remember thinking, if I ever get sick, I'm not asking these people

D (9:30)

to pray for me.

C (9:32)

But we were misinformed.

B (9:34)

And what we don't understand is that sometimes as believers, we open a window for the enemy to come in to sickness and disease.

C (9:44)

That's the self sabotage.

B (9:45)

Now, another thing that can happen is that person that knows God, that whatever has sickness and disease is in the hospital, witnesses to the person next to them, and they get saved. Well, it was God's will that they got. No, no. But God can take even the worst of circumstances he can. And use it for good and still heal, right?

C (10:04)

He sure can.

H (10:06)

How do you trust God for healing when you don't see it in your life?

C (10:10)

Well, sometimes healing doesn't come as fast as we wish. The truth is, technically we're all healed because Jesus already paid for it. The devil's trying to take our health from us.

B (10:20)

Right.

C (10:21)

But I really believe we have to do our homework first. We have got to know what the Bible says. We have to be very honest about what are we doing in our life that would jeopardize our healing.

B (10:30)

And we have to use those things that God has put on the earth or whatever we can do. Like you said, whatever. Dr. Medicine, holistic prayer diet. We got to do everything we can

C (10:42)

do in the natural, everything in the toolbox. Use it all. Sickness is a thief. You use anything at your disposal to push it out of your life. But you need to know what the Bible says, and you need to surround yourself in a community of faith. You know, if you're going to a church or if your friends are all negative, your life is very serious. You might need to choose a new church or new friends.

B (11:04)

That's why Jesus wouldn't let certain people into the room.

C (11:07)

That's exactly. He removed them.

B (11:09)

Talk about that story.

C (11:10)

He brought three disciples with him. And we know why. They were the bouncers.

B (11:14)

What was his story?

C (11:15)

That was the story of Jairus daughter being raised from the dead.

B (11:18)

So they all go up there. The girl's dead.

C (11:20)

Yeah. And they're all weeping and wailing and carrying on.

B (11:23)

And they're all in the room.

C (11:24)

Yeah. And Jesus said, she's sleeping. Well, for Jesus, raising somebody from death is like nudging somebody out of a nap. It's not hard for Jesus.

B (11:32)

Right, right.

C (11:33)

And they laughed him to scorn. And that Greek word means they really put him down. They really denigrated him. So Jesus said to Peter, James, and John, hey, now you know why I brought you. Get these people out of the room. Unbelief could affect even Jesus.

B (11:49)

Wow.

C (11:50)

Just think when he went to Nazareth, there he could do no mighty work because of their unbelief.

G (11:55)

Unbelief.

C (11:56)

And so it's very important who surrounds you when you're in a fight for your faith.

B (12:00)

And when they left the room, it took place. What happened to the daughter?

C (12:04)

Jesus took her by the hand and

B (12:06)

she said, raised from the dead, get up.

C (12:08)

And she got up.

E (12:09)

Yeah.

C (12:10)

It's such a beautiful story. I just wrote a new book about that. Not out yet.

G (12:14)

Throughout Scripture, we see so many examples of healing and miracles. And I remember as a child, I used to. When the elderly was sick and then they were well, I was like, oh, it's a miracle. It's a miracle. But there is a difference. What is the difference between healing and miracles?

C (12:32)

Well, a healing is progressive. In fact, in Greek, it is the word eomine, which means to cure. Please forgive me. But it's from the word eatros, which is the word for a doctor. So when you receive healing power, it's like you're being doctored. Well, when you go to the doctor, he doesn't make you instantly well, but he gives you something that will begin to Reverse your condition. And healing is a progressive kind of work that occurs over a period of time. And it's supernatural. A miracle is instantaneous, Instant, instant.

B (13:04)

Everybody wants instant.

C (13:05)

But mostly people get healing.

D (13:07)

Most people get healing because if they

C (13:10)

got a miracle, most of them would lose it because they got sick because of wrong thinking or wrong acting. But if you're healed, you have time to renew your mind at the same time that you're getting better and you're walking it out. Yeah, I'm very thankful for healing.

B (13:24)

It's a whole different road to travel. It is the road of healing versus the miracle. And sometimes God will use a miracle to actually speak to someone that's in the crowd.

C (13:36)

That's right.

B (13:37)

To bring them to Jesus.

C (13:38)

That's right.

B (13:39)

Is that true?

C (13:39)

Kathryn Kuhlman MEETINGS Yeah, I mean, miracles, miracles, miracles. And the people flow flooded the altars to get saved because of what they saw.

H (13:47)

In your book, you talk about seven main reasons that Christians don't receive healing. Can you talk about some of those?

C (13:53)

Well, one is the curse is in the earth. The curse is in the earth. Second reason is lack of knowledge. People just don't.

B (14:01)

The earth is dying.

C (14:02)

The earth is dying.

B (14:03)

We are dying.

C (14:04)

Yes.

B (14:04)

I mean, we're going to die, but

C (14:07)

with our faith, we can override it. Yes, we have a faith that overrides

B (14:10)

the system, but it's still appointed once for man to die.

C (14:14)

It is. And eventually we're.

B (14:15)

But we can fulfill our purpose on

C (14:17)

the earth and we can have a long life. Yeah, we can live much longer than people realize. Another reason is foolishness. Disobedience. Disobedience is a big reason why people get sick.

B (14:30)

Give an example of disobedience that people watching wouldn't even think, oh, wow, that's disobedience.

C (14:35)

Well, God tells you to do something and you don't do it. Now, God's not going to make you sick, but disobedience throws open a door for the devil to find entrance into your life. And I'll give the example of me and Denise. The Lord told me to marry Denise, and I was terrified of marriage. So I boldly proposed and then canceled it.

D (14:57)

Denise. I did, didn't I?

H (14:58)

No, you didn't.

C (14:59)

A couple years went by. I said, oh, I've got to do this. I boldly proposed and I canceled.

B (15:05)

Canceled again. Denise, I did not know that.

E (15:10)

Wow. Two times, two times, three strikes.

H (15:13)

Wait, what did you think when he did that the second time?

I (15:15)

I thought, he's strange.

C (15:19)

I was terrified of marriage.

H (15:21)

Did he tell You. That was the reason why. What was his reasoning?

I (15:25)

That he was doing this?

H (15:27)

Yeah.

I (15:27)

I didn't know. I said, well, does he think I'm spiritual or something? And so he kind of wants to marry me, but then decides he doesn't want to marry me. I mean, he likes snakes. I mean, he was weird.

B (15:40)

And I'm surprised you didn't get married in those years that.

I (15:45)

Well, you know, what happened was I knew he was my husband.

B (15:48)

Okay, you knew?

I (15:49)

Yeah, I knew. And I thought if I married somebody else, they'd die. And that's the honest truth.

B (15:55)

I thought they would die either.

I (15:56)

So.

B (15:57)

Okay. Waiting for the third time was the charm.

C (15:59)

I got sick, and I'm laying in the hospital with a tropical disease in Arkansas. How does that happen in Arkansas?

D (16:07)

Oh, my goodness.

B (16:07)

That's not the tropics.

C (16:09)

And they're doing all these spinal taps. I mean, the skin had peeled off of my hands and off of my face. My fever was so high. And I laid there and said, lord, what is going on? I'm serving you with all of my heart. He said, yes, but you've been disobedient. I said, in what area? And he said, denise Roberson. Oh, my gosh. There it is again. He said, I told you she was your wife, and I didn't make you sick, but you have opened the door for the devil to attack you. So I reached over, picked up the phone, called Denise, and that was the last time. And we got married. And now We've been married 45 years.

B (16:45)

Were you holding your breath that he wasn't going to cancel again?

I (16:49)

Well, I think I knew that this time was it.

B (16:52)

It was different.

I (16:52)

Yeah, because.

B (16:53)

What was your mom saying?

I (16:55)

Well, my sister said, don't tell mother anything.

B (16:58)

Oh, wow. She was wise.

I (16:59)

So I didn't tell mother anything.

B (17:01)

Oh, ok. She.

I (17:02)

I don't know how she would have taken me.

B (17:04)

Oh, my goodness. So y' all got married? We got married. And you got over the tropical disease.

C (17:08)

I was healed within 48 hours.

A (17:11)

Wow.

C (17:11)

Thank goodness it was not physical. I had opened a door for the devil to attack me.

G (17:16)

But God didn't make you sick?

C (17:18)

No, it didn't come from God. I didn't open the door. If you open the door for the devil, he will come in. Yes, but disobedience is a very big factor.

I (17:27)

Opens the door.

E (17:28)

Who is ultimately responsible for. For sickness and disease? You talk about that in your life.

C (17:34)

Well, the curse. The curse is in the earth. If there was no curse, nobody would see it.

B (17:38)

And so the curse came in the Garden.

C (17:41)

It came in the garden. And if you want to know what God's will is, look, before the curse came, the world before the curse was

B (17:47)

a perfect place where and Adam was supposed to live forever.

C (17:51)

He was?

I (17:52)

Yeah.

H (17:52)

Paul calls Satan the God of this world. What do you mean by that?

C (17:56)

Well, the word world is the Greek word cosmos. It means he works through the systems that are in the world that's really. He's the God of these earthly systems. He works through government, education, science. He works through all the things you can see and you can touch. It's kind of like he's the master puppeteer, just working everything with his strings and pulling.

H (18:15)

So he's looking for these open doors.

C (18:17)

He's looking for open doors. And Paul tells us in Ephesians, chapter four, give no place to the devil. Well, that means you can give place.

B (18:26)

True.

C (18:27)

You really can.

H (18:28)

What happens if somebody is watching and they're sick, but they don't know any doors that they've opened? What would you say to them?

C (18:36)

Well, the first thing I would say is they need to get before the Lord and say, all right, Lord, I'm doing everything that I know to do, so please show me if there's any area of my life where I have left a door open. Sometimes it's things we don't readily think about. It may be unforgiveness, it may be strife. Those things affect your health. It may be that you need to lose weight. That might be affecting your health. There's all kinds of factors about why people jeopardize the healing that belongs to them.

F (19:06)

Can it be generational?

C (19:08)

It can be generational. But you know what? We don't have to live with that. We can break. The blood of Jesus breaks everything. But, you know, I think it's very important that we also understand that healing is not just physical. It's like Joni was saying earlier, there's healing for the mind.

B (19:23)

Yes.

C (19:23)

We don't have to cope in life. Jesus didn't die so we could cope.

B (19:28)

Yeah.

C (19:28)

He died so we would be set free. And that really is his promise to us.

E (19:33)

And you look at all of the depression anxiety that people are facing today, back, you know, when I was young, I never even heard of those words. And now you hear them all the

B (19:46)

time, especially with the younger generation, with the Internet, with social media, anxiety, worry.

A (19:55)

I do think that you could worry yourself sick.

C (19:57)

Oh, you can worry. Is in the. I cover that in that book. But, you know, guys, Denise and I live in Russia, so we just come here from Time to time. And when we come here, we are stunned that America is a medicated nation. It is a medicated nation.

H (20:13)

So true.

C (20:14)

And if you watch tv, every commercial is about medicine. Denise says, mute that, mute that. Mute that. It's almost like you're being programmed to be sick, that this is normal to be sick. And Denise was just talking to somebody the other day who said, well, it's just that my stage in life for me to be sick, how we think is so very important. You're going to receive what you believe.

B (20:37)

They're training you, but you start to

I (20:39)

believe it, and then you are that.

B (20:41)

But if you listen to the commercial, you can get heart disease or liver disease, correct?

D (20:46)

Yeah, exactly.

B (20:47)

That's exciting.

A (20:48)

The people in the commercial are so happy.

D (20:50)

Right?

B (20:50)

They cause death.

D (20:53)

That's exactly right.

B (20:54)

Heart failure.

A (20:55)

Well, I do have a question, because I'm a pretty practical person, and I want to know how I can encourage someone. You have two sisters. They're children. They're innocent. They didn't open any of these doors. One was healed and one isn't. And then you have some people in the body of Christ who just don't know what to say. And sometimes they say some pretty wrong things. Oh, that must just be her limp in life, or, oh, that must be the thorn in her side that she's going to have to deal with in the rest of her life. Well, to a mom, that's unacceptable. Of course she's holding out for healing for the other daughter, just like God healed the one daughter. So what is something that you would say to encourage that mom? How can she care and encourage her own daughter while she's still believing for her health?

C (21:43)

First thing I would do is give her that book, because that book is gonna touch every single question that mom is asking. I mean, there is no stone that I do not unturn in that book and just tell them, you know what? You gotta keep believing. You gotta stand in faith. Encourage them. And it's very important that when a person's in a fight of faith that they are in a community of faith. You need to be around people that are gonna stand in faith.

B (22:07)

You've gotta be around the right people.

C (22:08)

You do.

E (22:10)

But I think that should call believers as well to step up, because there are people in our own communities that are struggling, that are struggling with faith, struggling with sickness or dementia. Correct. And a lot of times we back off from that because we don't have to get involved or we just don't have the compassion that we need. What would you speak to the body of Christ. About that, Denise.

I (22:35)

Well, I was thinking about your question, Kendra, that a lot of times the devil just focuses on the negative. She's got a healed child. I think God's already done something magnificent. And we can say, God, if you've done it once, well, then you can do it the second time. And to continue thinking on what God has already done because he didn't change. And for some kind of hope to get in her heart by looking at her other whale child.

B (23:07)

Yeah, well, and sometimes, like, you have to understand that some of the greatest men and women of God were healed of various diseases and sicknesses.

C (23:18)

They were.

B (23:19)

And so sometimes it may be a longer walk for that other one. But on the other side of it, God's got something great and he wants her to persevere through it. Because on the other side of it is blessing and purpose. And through that, she's going to be used by God in a great way. And the enemy's trying to stop that.

C (23:41)

That's exactly right.

B (23:42)

Is that true?

C (23:42)

That's right. Another thing I would say, just to encourage the saints, get your hands out of your pockets. We're told to lay hands on the sick. And, you know, when you're dealing with somebody that's sick, it's great to talk, but the Bible says that we're gonna lay hands on the sick and they're gonna recover or get the elders from the church or call the elders of

B (24:00)

the church to come down and pray.

C (24:02)

But I really believe hands are conduits. If you study scripture, God has always worked through hands.

I (24:08)

Right?

C (24:08)

Our hands are the instruments through which blessing and impartation. And if you study the ministry of Jesus, he was touching everybody. He was touching this one and this one. And it wasn't always the laying on of hands. He was just touching. Because Jesus understood there's an impartation through hands.

F (24:25)

Right.

B (24:25)

I want you to take a moment and just pray for someone who's watching right now that you're dealing with some sort of sickness in your body and you need a miracle, you need healing. We want to pray for you. And you say, well, how can that happen? Well, just reach your hand out. Touch, touch, whatever.

F (24:44)

A point of contact.

B (24:46)

The phone, the tv, they watch so many, the iPad, however you're watching. And just believe God for a touch, a special touch today. And also, Rick, I want you to start by leading in the sinner's prayer, because that's the most important.

C (25:02)

I will do it.

B (25:03)

And then let's pray for healing for those that are Watching.

C (25:06)

Well, healing belongs to everybody that is a child of God. It's called the children's bread. It's yours. If you're a child of God, it's a good reason to give your life to Jesus. And if you're not a Christian, I want you to pray this prayer with me. Say, jesus, I give you my life.

H (25:24)

I give you my life.

C (25:25)

From this moment forward, I'm going to serve you. Live in my heart.

B (25:30)

Live in my heart.

C (25:31)

Forgive me.

B (25:32)

Forgive me.

C (25:33)

Make me your child.

H (25:34)

Make me your child.

C (25:36)

Now, if you said that and really meant it, just like that, you became a child of God. Now healing belongs to you. When Jesus paid the price for you to be forgiven, he also paid the price for you to be whole, physically and mentally. And if you're struggling in your body or in your mind, God wants you to be free. God believes in being free. It's the devil that makes us sick. And I just want you to put your hand on your heart and I'm going to pray for you right now. Father, in the name of Jesus.

F (26:09)

Father, in the name of Jesus, I

C (26:10)

thank you so much. Thank you so much for the healing power of Jesus. He's the same today as he was before.

B (26:18)

He's the same today as he was before.

C (26:20)

He healed. Then he heals now.

B (26:23)

He heals now.

C (26:23)

Jesus touched me.

A (26:25)

Jesus, touch me.

C (26:26)

Release your power.

B (26:27)

Release your power.

C (26:28)

Heal me. Start the process now.

B (26:31)

Start the process now.

C (26:33)

In Jesus name.

B (26:34)

In Jesus name.

C (26:36)

Amen.

B (26:37)

Amen.

C (26:37)

Just raise your hands and begin to worship God for what he's doing in your life. Amen.

B (26:44)

Some of you just. You just feel almost like there's a warmth going through your body. That's the Lord touching you right now. Just. Just begin to thank him. Just say, thank you, Jesus, right where you are. Just say, thank you, Jesus, and let us know. We want to hear some of the stories because I just sense the presence of God, so strong, ministering to so many that are watching right now. So everything you need to know about healing. What's the takeaway from the book, Rick?

C (27:15)

That you can be.

B (27:16)

Well, it's amazing, isn't it, guys? It is truly amazing. Well, thank you guys for being here today.

C (27:23)

Thank you for having us.

B (27:24)

It's so good. We're out of time, but remember that Jesus purchased your healing with his own blood. Even if you've given up hope on your healing, he hasn't. Ask him to step in today and let's see what happens. If you're watching today and you need prayer, we have wonderful prayer partners that are standing by that would love to pray with you. If you prayed that prayer of salvation prayer, call us and we want to send you the gospel of John. It's our free gift. It's a great place to start in the word of God and just let us know that you asked Jesus into your heart. But I do want to thank Rick and Denise Renner all the way from Russia for joining us today. Be sure you pick up a copy of Rick's book, everything you need to know about healing. For more, you can visit them online@renner.org and as always, make sure to follow us on all social media, subscribe to our YouTube channel, and listen to the Joanie Table Talk podcast available on all the major platforms. Thank you so much for watching. Thank you, ladies. It's a great show, a great insight on healing and miracles and unforgiveness and forgiving and all of that. And hey, you're going to be better on the other side of this. You're going to get through this, okay. Don't give up. Amen. God is on your side. We'll see you next time. Bye. Bye. Today, Well, is our medical system broken? And do we have freedom to make our own choices and have outside influences changed what medicine once stood for? Well, today we'll look at these vital questions and more with help of our special guest. But before we get to that, joining me around the table is April Simons.

J (29:32)

Hey there.

B (29:32)

How are you?

J (29:33)

I'm doing fantastic. And I love the topic of the show. I always learn so much. I think Dorothy and I always talk about, we learn so much on the show, so it's great.

B (29:41)

I do, too, and I love it. Dorothy Newton, welcome.

G (29:43)

Hey, I'm all about a long and healthy life, so bring it on.

I (29:48)

All right.

B (29:49)

I like that. Long and healthy life. Rachel Ann Brown.

I (29:52)

How are you?

H (29:53)

I'm good. I'm excited about the show today. You know, one of the things I've learned in my short years of life is that we have to advocate for our health. And, you know, modern medicine is just so crazy. And so, yeah, we have to, like, get through it, press through and see what's good, what's bad, find out what the truth is. Find out what the truth is.

B (30:14)

That's so true.

H (30:14)

That's what we've done here at De Star.

B (30:15)

Cindy Johnston, welcome. Hey, happy to be here. My bestie. How are you doing? I'm doing well. Good, good.

E (30:22)

I'm so thankful for shows like this because we have to educate ourselves.

B (30:26)

We do.

E (30:26)

Because there's so Much information out there on social media that.

B (30:29)

So much out there.

E (30:30)

Yep.

B (30:31)

Well, he is a physician specializing in psychiatry, the author of the book Making the Cut, and a vocal free speech advocate. Please welcome Dr. Erin Cariotti. Come on in. Hello.

C (30:46)

Hello.

B (30:47)

I should say the father of five sons.

D (30:49)

Five boys.

H (30:51)

Wow.

B (30:52)

Thank you. I asked him you were gonna go one more time for the girl, and

D (30:55)

you were like, well, you know, we get what God gives us. So we were blessed with five. And even though I didn't get my own girl, my oldest son is now married and about a year ago had a little girl. So I now have a granddaughter.

B (31:10)

I bet he was surprised he could

D (31:12)

help create a. Yeah, we didn't know what was going to, you know, what was going to come, but yeah, we have our little one year old girl now.

B (31:19)

That's awesome. That's awesome. Well, you know, if you ask anyone, something feels broken in our medical system today through the influence of private money, government involvement in industry, bureaucracy, the patient seems secondary. But there are doctors fighting to restore the patient doctor relationship with the power of truth. You and a whole host of doctors that I've had the honor of interviewing who were actually censored during COVID Now, a lot of the things we were saying have come out to be true.

D (31:55)

That's right.

B (31:56)

Talk a little bit about that.

D (31:58)

Well, in 2021, I was fired from my job at the University of California for challenging their vaccine mandate and several other, I guess, medical freedom advocates, I'll call them, around the same time.

B (32:10)

Because you're a professor of ethics.

D (32:12)

That's right.

B (32:13)

And ethically, you couldn't put your brain around why they were doing this.

D (32:17)

Exactly. It violated the vaccine mandate. Shots. Violated the principle of informed consent, which I had taught to the medical students for 16 years. And so I challenged the university's vaccine mandate in federal court, and the University of California fired me as a consequence of that. But the case became publicly known and I met many of the other people that you've probably had on this show who were health freedom advocates and got involved not only in advocating for better medicine, but also advocating for free speech, for the ability to say publicly, to say on social media the truth as we saw it. And so I was involved, for example, in a free speech case that went to the Supreme Court that is now being settled by the federal government. We were challenging the federal government, basically arguing that the government was forcing social media companies like Twitter now X and Facebook and other platforms like that to basically do the government's bidding and censor any voices of Americans who challenged at the time, it was really challenging the public health establishment. And one of my co plaintiffs in that case, Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, is now head of the NIH, another co plaintiff in that case.

B (33:38)

So the ship has turned.

D (33:39)

Yeah, yeah. Another one is high up at the Department of Health and Human Services. So we were sort of outcasts for a couple of years, you could say, outside of the mainstream medical establishment. And now many of us are in positions of authority within the mainstream medical establishment and we're starting to see, I think, the tide finally turn on some of these issues.

B (34:01)

So how do you view medicine? Obviously you're a doctor, but what should be the doctor patient and how should medicine be used in view of the fact that you believe we're created in God's image and he created something really beautiful.

D (34:19)

So God created the human body with exquisite beauty and refinement, and the human body itself is the primary agent of healing. What do I mean by that? Medicine is important. I'm a physician, right. And medications have their role, surgical interventions have their role. But medicine always has to remember, first of all, that the body is the primary agent of healing. And that medicine is there to help the body do what maybe it can't otherwise do on its own. I'll give you a couple of simple examples. We tend to think that we give antibiotics to eradicate an infection. But antibiotics actually don't rid the body of an infection entirely. They lower the infection enough that the body's own immune system can then take over and clear the infection. That's why if you're too immunocompromised, if your immune system is not working because of cancer, because of advanced AIDS or something like that, antibiotics won't do you any good. Right? The same thing with surgery. A surgeon doesn't actually close a surgical wound. He merely uses sutures, stitches, to put the two tissues together. And then the body itself heals the wound. If you stop and think about it, right? And what medicine has increasingly done is rather than treating the human body as beautifully integrated, organic whole as God created it, basically the body's an assembly of parts. It's like machinery we can crack open and tinker with and reconfigure, redesign, take it apart, put it back together, and it's become too, you could say interventionist too. It's become too controlling in many respects. It hasn't assumed that humble position of helper to the body, it's instead assumed a godlike position of total control over the body. And instead of actually healing US and making us healthier. It's begun to do more harm than good because it's not approaching the body. It's not approaching health and healing with the necessary. I would say humility.

B (36:35)

We're one of the sickest nations in the world, even though we have the ability to probably do the best for healing.

D (36:45)

So we spend twice as much money on health care.

H (36:47)

That's what I was going to point

D (36:48)

out as any other nation in the world. And we barely rank in the top 50 in terms of health outcomes.

E (36:55)

Yeah, yeah, it's terrible.

D (36:56)

So what's going on? Right. Why are we not getting a good return on our investment? It's not because of bad technology. Right. We have the best medical technology available. It's not because we're not spending enough money. It's not because we're not putting physicians through long periods of training. We're doing all of those things and still somehow Americans keep getting sicker. Right. That's a huge problem with the health of Americans today.

B (37:24)

Yeah. So talk about the flip.

D (37:27)

The flip of the food pyramid upside down on its head. Yeah. So how did that happen? Well, various industries that were profiting from us eating certain things, especially refined sugar and processed foods, basically exercised influence over medical associations, over the government that created the food pyramid, the Department of Agriculture, and basically allowed sound research on nutrition to be buried or ignored for decades, and sloppy research that was poorly done and not well designed to basically be foregrounded. And so we ended up with a food pyramid that encouraged us to eat large amounts of carbohydrates, which for many Americans translates into large amounts of refined sugars that contributes to metabolic syndrome, type 2 diabetes, the obesity epidemic, all kinds of. So there are all kinds of, unfortunately, cancers that are on the rise in the United States. Most of them are related to the problem of metabolism and obesity and all the other things that the refined sugars and the excess carbs in our diet.

B (38:41)

So at the top now, I saw chicken.

D (38:44)

You can eat chicken. You can eat red meat again, you should eat water.

B (38:50)

Protein is important.

D (38:51)

Protein is now heavily sort of foregrounded. And so the pyramid was literally turned upside down.

B (38:59)

In fact, the way our grandparents ate. The way our grandparents ate, that's what we can say.

D (39:03)

Funny enough, they didn't have the chronic disease epidemic that we had, and they were eating eggs and butter and red meat and, you know, stuff that was close to food the way that God created it rather than, I mean, the other thing besides the refined sugars, anything that's highly processed is typically going to be toxic.

B (39:25)

So talk a little bit about the corn and what they've done with the corn.

D (39:30)

So our government, strange enough, subsidizes the production of corn of this one crop. And so we have all this excess corn, much of it genetically modified, much of it a sort of monocrop. In other words, there's not diversity in the kind of corn that we get. And diversity in food is usually healthier than just having a plant product that's of one strainer of one.

B (39:56)

My grandpa grew corn on our property that was the right kind of corn to eat.

D (40:01)

And it looked very different than what you would today. They're not perfect. There's different colors, there's different shades, there's different varietals. And so now we have one type of corn product produced by these large, you know, huge agricultural businesses. And what do we do with all this corn? Well, we create other products like high fructose corn syrup, which is basically highly refined sugar that's very bad for you. That if again, if you go start reading the ingredients on the products that you buy in the grocery store, look

B (40:31)

at the juices or the, or the

D (40:32)

jelly, you'll see high fructose corn syrup in almost everything, including stuff like salad dressings, where you wouldn't expect, expect there to be a lot of sugar.

B (40:40)

Right, right.

H (40:41)

My doctor told me in like the most certain terms, like you do not need to eat gluten, and it doesn't even matter if you have a gluten sensitivity or not. He talked about how it's genetically modified and how our body doesn't know how to process it. And so it starts, the body starts attacking itself, which leads to all these other diseases that we're seeing.

D (40:58)

So many Americans have the experience of having difficulty with bread and wheat based products, products with gluten in the United States. Then they go to Europe, where the regulatory scheme around food is very different. And they go to Italy, they go to France and they eat the French bread and they feel great and they don't have any of the gastrointestinal or problems. They eat pizza, they feel great. So it's, you know, unfortunately, it's not just the fact that the food pyramid got flipped upside down and we're eating more of the wrong kind of thing. But even when we eat those things, the stuff that we produce here in the United States is not nearly as healthy as it could be if it was produced in the way that it is on the European continent, where it's basically much closer to something that has not been highly refined. Highly processed and modified in ways that make it almost unrecognizable as food.

B (41:56)

Well, your book, Making the How to Heal Modern Medicine. I mean, we're talking about some of the things that need to change here in America. Now, I know Bobby Kennedy has made some changes, and most people agree with the food choices and stuff that he's talked about. Are we making a turn? Can it happen?

D (42:17)

I think Americans are starting to wake up. What's happening at the government level with RFK Jr. With the make America Healthy Again movement, the medical freedom movement, I think all of that is positive. Anything that we can get from the top down that can help us is going to be helpful. Right. But I think the primary change that needs to happen is for individual Americans to wake up and recognize that they need to take responsibility for their own health. That's one of the central themes in my book, Making the Cut, Restoring the doctor patient relationship to the center of medicine. And what that means is if the body is the primary agent of healing and the patient is primarily responsible for their health, the medical establishment is there to assist that person, to tailor the treatment to the needs of that person and not to send the person through, like an industrialized medical system where they feel like, I'm going to the clinic, I'm going to the hospital, I'm being processed through all these. I call it turnstile medicine. You go through all the turnstiles like you do at Disneyland. You go through all the lines in the ride, right. You get processed, but you don't come out the other end actually feeling helped and healed. Right. You might have had a brief conversation with a doctor, but he wasn't listening to you. He wasn't examining you carefully. He was staring at a screen, right? Asking you a whole series of questions that had very little to do with your chief complaint that were dictated by outside interests and outside entities. Physicians have become glorified data entry clerks. Right.

H (43:54)

So how do you trust your doctor then? With the people that are listening and they're saying, I hear you. I know I need to take charge of my own health, but, like, where do I go to get the information and know what's actually true and what's actually going to help me?

D (44:05)

So I would say, first of all, find someone who stops and looks at you and listens to you, who asks you questions that are directly pertinent to what you're dealing with.

B (44:15)

There are some good doctors out there.

D (44:16)

There are good doctors out there. Find a doctor engaged in. I mean, for people who can afford it, there are so called concierge physicians. But there's a movement now to make concierge medicine more affordable for more people. It's known as direct primary care. And it's a model that eliminates the middleman of the third party insurance company and a lot of the sort of layers of bureaucracy that have grown up within medicine that end up constraining and controlling what the physician can and can't do. So you want to try to find a physician who's worked to break out of that system a little bit and establish a clinical practice that puts the needs of their patient first. And there are physicians out there that are starting to do this. And there's a demand for it on the part of patients, and there's a desire on the part of many physicians to supply that as well. And when you have supply and demand, those two things are going to find each other. They're going to meet.

B (45:16)

Yeah. I wanted to give April a chance, Dorothy.

J (45:19)

You know, I was thinking about just the. What's it. Gluten intolerance, how it's so big. You brought that up and I know someone that.

B (45:27)

That's a problem for her.

J (45:29)

And I just wonder. There's such a deluge of that if you look on social media, I mean, everybody's got gluten intolerance. Everybody's got gut issues. You think this flip, if we go back to the natural, they'll start feeling better?

D (45:41)

I think so. I think we also have to get a lot of the processed chemicals out of our food that are. That are making our guts basically unhealthy and unable to process food in the way that our body is meant to process food. And this is going to take time. We're starting to see some movement in that direction. And we need to make healthier food more affordable for more Americans. The sad fact is it is not only more convenient, but it's cheaper. It costs less to eat unhealthy food in the United States than it does to eat healthy whole foods. And so that's why many Americans who are just, you know, struggling to make ends meet, they're busy, they're trying to take care of their kids. They go for the fast, the convenient, and the inexpensive, and that ends up very often being the food that is least conducive to long term health. So, you know, rather than making everyone an expert on nutrition and everyone an expert on medications and exercise and so forth, I think a few simple rule of thumbs that can help a lot of people. Try to eliminate sugar from your diet, try to eliminate Seed oils like canola oil, safflower oil, and instead eat olive oil and cook at higher temperatures. You can cook with avocado oil.

B (47:03)

What are the seed oils for? People who don't know.

D (47:07)

They're basically highly processed, toxic. I'm not even going to call them food.

B (47:13)

Vegetable oils.

D (47:14)

Yes. Like vegetable oil. I mean, the word vegetable oil is almost a misnomer. It's a misleading term. Vegetables are healthy for me. So why wouldn't vegetable oil be good? Avocado oil, olive oil.

B (47:27)

I want you to know that I found. Well, I mean, we, like sometimes, not often, but potato chips, you know, but you look at the bag and everyone's bad. But I found some potato chips. The only ingredients were potatoes, avocado oil, and salt.

D (47:44)

There you go. And there are more products on the shelf. There are more products on the shelf like this now?

J (47:49)

Yes, yes.

D (47:49)

For a lot of people, it's just eliminating sugary drinks, right? Water or unsweetened iced tea. Don't drink the. I mean, the sodas, even a lot of the juices have artificial sugars in it.

B (48:00)

Sparkling water.

D (48:01)

Water. Sparkling water. Unsweetened iced tea.

B (48:05)

You can use stevia, and you're. Unsweetened iced tea.

D (48:07)

Simple changes like that can actually go a long way.

H (48:10)

I want to wait. I want to ask a question before we move away from seed oils, because I'm a busy mom. I do eat out a lot. But I have convinced myself that even though I'm eating out, I'm eating healthy because I'm getting chicken and vegetables or I'm getting steak and a sweet potato. But if the restaurants that are cooking my food are using seed oils, am I really not eating healthy? This is a question for me.

B (48:32)

No, you're not.

D (48:33)

You're eating less healthy than you could probably if you were to cook at home. And I know it's hard to cook at home. I've only just started cooking, and my wife has done all the cooking throughout the entirety of our marriage. I just started about a year ago.

B (48:47)

She just made homemade chicken noodle soup last night.

D (48:50)

Yeah.

H (48:50)

So how bad is it? How bad is it?

D (48:54)

So we can become. We don't want to become, you know, like the Pharisees in the gospel, who are. What our Lord said was straining out a gnat and swallowing. I'm never gonna let anything unclean enter my body. No, like, you have to live. You have to live your life. Occasionally you have to indulge a little bit in your favorite ice cream or your unhealthy spot.

H (49:14)

I don't even feel like this is an indulgement. That's the thing. I feel like this is so good.

D (49:18)

Yeah. But chicken and broccoli, any simple changes that you can make along the lines of what I'm talking about, exercise, water.

H (49:25)

Can you request no seed oils?

D (49:28)

You can, actually. Some restaurants are moving in the direction of using beef tallow for their french fries and eliminating the seed oils.

E (49:36)

But then cost again is going to go up.

D (49:39)

Cost is going to go up. So I mean, to me, rather than subsidizing corn and other highly processed products, if the government is going to subsidize food to try to make it more affordable for more Americans, subsidize whole foods, fresh fruits and vegetables, organic meats. Sad to say, the higher quality stuff is almost more expensive. So when you can afford it, you should buy the stuff that costs a bit more. But many people can't, which is a

H (50:09)

serious problem they're talking about now because there's been so many people that are against the vaccine or not getting vaccinated. They're like, we're gonna vaccinate the food and we're gonna put chemicals in the food. Yeah, what about exactly when you eat

B (50:20)

it, you'll be vaccinating the cow.

D (50:24)

And while there's a new product that's being developed, this one is actually quite frightening. They're known as self spreading vaccines. How does this work? I mean, this is something Americans should be aware of and should recognize. It's basically literally using a virus and supposedly a virus that's not going to harm you in order to attach a vaccine to a virus so that the vaccine spreads person to person the way a virus would spread person to person. They've done this already with some plants and with some animals testing it in different animals. And what is the purpose for? I know the purpose is to get around informed consent and to get around people who don't see it.

H (51:07)

What is the purpose of the vaccine violation?

D (51:09)

Well, I mean, it can be done for, you know, for many things.

B (51:14)

So when you don't get the flu vaccine or when you don't, who is

E (51:17)

they that are doing that?

D (51:19)

Well, I mean, there's scientists that are developing these products and then they will have to submit them to the FDA for approval. And then they will either have to convince the American public to take them or if that's not possible, there is this proposal to try to do an end run around people's ability to decide what they want and just have these things, you know, aerosolized in the atmosphere and then Let the virus take care of, administering the vaccine to everyone else. So I wrote about this issue a few years ago on my.

J (51:56)

How close are we to that happening?

D (51:58)

Well, they've developed the technology and they've showed that it can be. It can work in, I want to say, the one I read about, they had tested on rabbits or something like that. So if it can work in other mammals, it's highly likely that it would work in human beings.

B (52:13)

You know, one of the things I was gonna mention that I think is really important is the God factor in all of these things we're talking about. We think about, oh, we just, you know, have God in church and keep over here. But like, a lot of those doctors, you know, felt a higher, if you

D (52:32)

will,

B (52:35)

power leading them and guiding them to speak the truth when they would lose their job, when they would be sued. I mean, when all these horrific things would happen to them as a result. But they were more concerned about doing what was right in the sight of the Lord than to please man.

D (52:53)

I think that's exactly what happened. I mean, I've met many good physicians in the medical freedom movement. What, a couple of years ago, we were sort of the dissident, the COVID dissident movement. And many of them are grounded in faith. Many of them, interestingly, going through the process of seeing what was going on, the way in which the truth was suppressed. Yeah, they turned, they found faith, or they found God in the course of just trying to pursue good science and medicine.

B (53:21)

I met some of them and they said the very same thing.

D (53:23)

Isn't that fascinating?

B (53:24)

There was something that was driving me, a force that was good. And then they had to come to some kind of relationship with the Creator,

D (53:35)

which is what we want. It's amazing to hear the stories of many of these friends of mine who now are curious. Tell me about your Christian faith. And they talk to other people within the movement and hear that. Okay. I found the strength to stand up and do this, even though I was being criticized, even though I might have even lost my job precisely because of my faith, precisely because I knew that even if I couldn't see what my future looked like, I trusted that God had something better for me and tried to follow his will.

B (54:13)

You watched all of these players, if you will, when everything looked bad, now come out on the other side and be blessed in a way they never could have imagined. That's right, because they were willing to stand up for truth. And the ones that were pushing the vaccine, the fauci's of this world you look at what's happened, you know, obviously he was pardoned, but you look at the truth concerning the lies that he was a part of.

D (54:40)

Yeah. And I think more and more Americans are recognizing the truth now. It was harder for a lot of us to see it when we're right in the thick of it. But now, looking back on the consequences that this had on society, the way in which these policies failed to stop the spread of the virus, the fact that most people got Covid and did fine with it, if they were, you know, unless they were old and frail, they were at very low risk of serious negative consequences from this virus. And so just the experience of actually getting infected and seeing, okay, it was rough for a couple of days, but then I recovered. And why did we turn all of society upside down? Why did we destroy relationships? Why do we close churches and prevent people from worshiping God for the sake of this very limited human good and actually not only didn't help people, but harmed a lot of people.

B (55:32)

Right. I think Americans are saying never again.

D (55:36)

I hope so.

B (55:37)

Never again.

D (55:37)

I sure hope so.

B (55:38)

Well, I want you to be sure and look at the book Making the How to Heal Modern Medicine by Dr. Aaron. And we are out of time. But I want you to remember that every right and freedom must be fought and reaffirmed in every generation because once it's gone, it's so much harder to get it back. So be bold, stay informed, and connect with doctors that stand on truth even when it's inconvenient. Well, I do want to thank Dr. Aaron for joining us today. Be sure you pick up a copy of his book Making the Cut. For more information, you can visit him online. And if you're watching today and you need prayer, or maybe you don't know the Lord and you've never actually invited Jesus into your heart, it's so simple just to call out on his name and say, jesus, I need you. I mean, that's the way my grandpa prayed. He didn't know how to pray. He'd never been to church. He just knelt down and said, God, if you're there, I need you. And God changed his life and he can do the same for you. So just if you need someone to pray with you, we have prayer partners that are standing by to pray with you. Or maybe you just have a need in your life and you need prayer. That's what that number's on the screen for. Well, as always, make sure to follow us on all social media. Subscribe to our YouTube channel. Listen to the Joni Table Talk podcast. It's available now on all the major platforms. Thank you so much for watching. And thank you, Dr. Aaron. Thank you ladies. So interesting. Went by fast. I hope this is a blessing to you. We'll see you next time. Bye Bye for today.

K (57:19)

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